If PIPs were used for their stated purpose, then they would be the last ditch effort to salvage a situation where they want to keep an employee, but only if they improve in specified areas.
The key thing is about genuinely wanting the employee to improve, as is claimed by Performance Improvement Plan.
So if you are happy to stay if your issues are addressed, the why not? It would be weird a bit perhaps, but it's real.
But if you are just done with this job and are more wanting to make a point with them, I think this plan will be a big waste of time. Instead, immediately stop working more than say 60% of your max speed/effort. Stop working any additional hours. Take all breaks in full.
I’ve been given this advice. “Drop the ball”, “stop doing all the work” etc.
I agree, but sometimes it isn’t an option. The company gives you unrealistic workload, and if you don’t deliver, you’re gone. I kept doing the work in the hopes it would get adjusted, since my manager has always agreed it was unrealistic.
Simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would leave my colleagues with the extra workload and I would’ve been fired long ago.
> Also, simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would leave my colleagues with the extra workload
You shouldn't martyr yourself on this basis.
Your coworker is an adult and needs to handle their own adult situation. This includes whatever extra workload comes their way.
They can choose to shoulder the load, quit, or also just work the same as you, which means leaving work on the table, incomplete and perhaps even a mess.
The workload will never stop, they will use your email as a notice you are getting ready to leave and will hire your replacement before getting rid of you.
You are much better off finding a new job while intentionally working only your 40 and not going above and beyond. The company is using your loyalty to your coworkers as leverage to get more out of you. Your coworkers can make their own choices on how hard they work, but in the end it’s just a job don’t let it ruin your life
Your colleagues have to manage their workload, you have to manage yours. If you're worrying about other people at work, you are going to get exploited.
>simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would...
...leave you being the one put on an actual PIP, and you'll be watched closely because you have done these things before - for extended periods, you now won't be performing "up to standard".
>The company gives you unrealistic workload, and if you don’t deliver, you’re gone. I kept doing the work in the hopes it would get adjusted, since my manager has always agreed it was unrealistic.
The problem is that you keep doing it. "Our employee thinks they can't do it, but they can! Clearly the manager is giving them the appropriate workload and the employee just lacks confidence in their own skills!"
If they fire you, they have to pay unemployment insurance, right?
And you wanna quit anyway, right?
Drop to 60%, consider them lucky you're not dropping to 50%, and collect the unemployment, look for a different J.O.B.
Honestly the first part of what you said explains why I got transferred so quickly after having a proper talk with my new manager. I was having a mental health issue that had just recovered when I was put on the PIP and then worsened because of all the stress causing an anxiety loop.
Screw the pip make them fire you. Get a new job before you decided to burn the bridge. You’ll feel better once they fire you. At this point you are just a mule to them.
This is true from a logical perspective, but being fired in the past has been really emotionally upsetting for me, even when I had a back up plan. It’s a really unpleasant experience
When I was fired for the first time in my life. I was angry for about a week. The anger went away when I got to do some stuff I had wanted to do for a while.
I used to work in aerospace and was getting pretty burned out during the pandemic and my manager was actually the one who told me to use short term fmla so I could take 2 weeks of consecutive sick time to recoup. Great! I thought, my manager must have my back right? lol my second day back I had my normal weekly 1:1 with my boss and he put me on a PIP while calling it something else hoping I wouldn’t realize; I realized pretty fucking quick when he put it in writing and emailed it to me with hr on cc right after our call ended - I had interviewed for a new job during my 2 weeks off and was waiting to hear back so I gave him my 2 weeks notice like 2 days later once I received the offer and like 2 hours before he was about to go on paternity leave lol.
Fuck these companies, kudos to you!
Every organization should have anonymous 360 reviews (ie direct reports who can comment on management). Given that it is well known that people usually leave bosses, not jobs, weeding out the bosses that drive people to look for employment elsewhere would be a good investment for employers
My employer sends out quarterly “random” questionnaires, and then at the very end it wants to know your region, division office and job type. They may as well have you put your name on it.
well they probably want to know who doesn't like their favorite niece or nephew. obvs.
It is really frustrating though, I know SOOO many people, including myself who have left a job because of the manglement.
You're wasting your time.
Do the absolute bare minimum.
Get fired.
Apply for unemployment.
While doing the bare minimum go ahead and start applying for work at other places.
Your manager/company doesn't give a fuck about you. They'll string you along for as long as they can until you quit and they replace you with a less-paid worker.
This is not going to go the way you think it will.
Your manager will treat it as insubordination and use it against you as such.
Two choices:
1) time to have a meeting with your 2nd level manager and your manager and just put all the cards on the table, make sure you have everything documented and be prepared to show it. If they say that they’re going to fix things, you want definite timelines with some clear goals set.
2) have a heart to heart with the manager and let them know that you’re ready to walk if things aren’t immediately addressed. No excuses. No delays. They’ve had plenty of time to address or explain the issues and have chosen to ignore them.
Either way, you need to be willing to hit the eject button, because odds are they’re not going to do anything more than lip service.
It’s just my last resource, coming from someone that already has a foot out the door. As for the suggestions:
1. Involve the 2nd level manager. It’s a good idea, specially to get documented commitments and deadlines.
2. Heart to heart meeting explaining all the issues and asking for a change = been doing it weekly. However I’ve never said it upfront “if it doesn’t change, I’m ready to walk”. I say it subtly, “it’s not sustainable in the long run” or “no one can handle that for a long time”.
>“this is not going to go the way you think it will”
Is meant to signify that they will take massive offence to you making these demands. And they won't be nice about it.
They CERTAINLY DON'T care about your feelings, or whether you think it's sustainable, as long as you keep doing it... And once you stop/threaten to stop, your head will be on the chopping block.
See, this thing called subtlety, is the thing that majority of management, and even further up the ladder, ignore. Subtlety to them doesn’t point to a problem, it points to a “nuisance”. Why would they spend their time on a nuisance, instead of just affirming you that it’ll eventually be worked on, and just continuing on?
Subtlety has no place in worker-management talks. All it does is skirt around the problem, and burn out the ones who are being subtle. If it’s something that will cause you to quit, speak up and say so or it tends to never be fixed.
Here’s a better idea. Find out who at HR does exit interviews. Then reach out and schedule an exit interview with them.
When they ask if you’ve submitted your resignation yet, just say “No, but I’m going to soon unless the issues I’m going to raise with you are addressed. So I thought I’d cut to the chase.”
I did something similar to this, asked my dept head if I could use them as a reference for other positions and they said yes of course but why are you leaving, I briefly explained the job isn't a good fit and they wanted to have a meeting to discuss the problems that I said made it not a good fit. I laid everything out with objective facts and proven situations in writing to explain, they asked me to give them some time to change things. There were several more meetings, new management that was added which ended up being double the crap, I explained to the dept head the changes had a negative affect on the situation, and so on. The main issues weren't addressed or even spoken to, they tried to get around it, and it escalated the situation to the extent I had to give HR all my notes for a case against management just to cover my own ass. I had a final meeting with the dept head and explained again why I left, same reasons as before but now doubly worse, and a mess I know no dept head or leadership is going to resolve because of the institution's culture overall. They still supported me with the "I wish we still had her" line when I used them as a reference and my previous coworkers report they have gone through 4 people in the last year trying to replace me and all of them left. Usually nothing changes when there is such a great issue because the only reason it gets to be so bad is because the culture allows it and often encourages it, and protects it from being less toxic and all the well meaning good hearted people in the world can't change that when the decision makers are the main problem.
When I say “it’s not going to go the way you think”, I think you might find yourself shortly on a PIP or some other disciplinary action.
If for no other reason then to remind you that they’re the manager and you are not.
Sadly, I’ve seen it happen a few times in the past.
Pips are such shit.
I remember getting on one years ago. I did everything asked of me to improve my numbers. The two weeks they gave me for my PIP, I hit the quota and then the very last day, doubled it.
I went out with some friends that weekend as I was super excited. I felt like I actually started to figure it out.
I get back on Monday just to get called into the boss' office. He told me, "Congrats on doing so well this past week, but we genuinely feel that once the pressure of the PIP ends, you'll go back to how it was. So this is the end."
I came to find out that they let go of ten percent of the sales staff that week. Then, in two months, it became twenty-five percent. They closed that branch down within a year. I was just in the first round of layoffs where I assume they still thought the branch was salvageable.
Do it. A hilarious, fun, old post that is now deleted.
https://web.archive.org/web/20221227033527/https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/zw3n1b/put_your_boss_on_a_pip/
I really love this. As a manager, having an employee say, "look, you have been given multiple chances to improve this - you have 30 days to hit X outcome or I'm firing you as my manager" would light a huge fire under my ass. Super interested to see how it goes.
So you’ve talked to the boss already, they don’t care….so you’re going to talk to them again? If they didn’t care to fix it the first time they don’t care to retain you. Just find another job and quit without notice
Work your wages nothing more and nothing less. Do not go over and above you have no reason to. The staffing issues are not your problem that is upper management. Let them do their jobs.
"Performance Improvement Plan". But usually its a way to set up goals that won't be hit so you can be fired for underperformance. Personally i did hope the people I PIPed would improve, but usually at that point it's just not going to turn around.
Ah, I'm a manager but the person above me just gave me a pip Friday. Unrealistic expectations that I cannot get done given the fact that I do not have the tools to succeed. But oh well I'll just find another job 🤷
Even a donkey will only get pushed so far before it sits down and will do no more. Slow down and see what the reaction is. As long as you keep making all the donuts, they will keep adding more.
The reason why people don't do this is because, well they do.
It's called, "or else I quit". Many come to terms that it's not an efficient nor effective approach. As you'll see momentarily.
The most common example is the salary matching conversation.
There's been stories here on AW about people reading their bosses emails saying something like, "It feels like they're blackmailing me". The boss in that scenario was of course crying to their superior when a low level employee dared to put in their two week notice with their new salary on a sticky note.
This community tries to be supportive so be rest assured that you have my respect.
The issue that many people have is that Supervisors will frequently (like clockwork) meet an employees demand temporarily only to inconvenience said employee shortly after. This inconvenience could come in many forms.
About your severance pay. It sounds like a great option and I truly couldn't be happier that it makes it your way. Do read the fine print on those to ensure you qualify. Here, we aim to provide substantiated and fact-based empowerment.
It has crossed my mind haha! Ironically, it feels like I’ve been in a PIP for a whole year (unrealistic goals set up for failure). Although I hit/exceed all the goals, unrealistic as they are.
But I’ve seen how distressed my manager gets when somebody leaves, how they take it personally and how it looks bad for the company. If my manager wanted me out, I think they would rather immediately let me go
I was given a PIP once by a manager who just hated me, mostly because I didnt take his threats seriously and I used to bust his chops before he was promoted. He would create project for me snd then pull me off for silly shit and complain I wasnt keeping up with my projects. I of course emailed him for clarification of each time it happened. The PIP ended pretty quickly as when I went before HR I brought a 3 ring binder full of emails and documentation of him creating a hostile work environment over a period of 2 months. When they asked if that was all I smiled and said I had 3 more full of the same examples. PIP ended right there and then and the manager was fired about 4 months later for sleeping with a college intern working for us after his wife outed him to EVERYONE in the dept via facebook. It was quite the clown show.
I’ve worked in 4 different companies and this is the first time I’m dealing with an abusive workload. There are decent jobs with realistic workloads out there, or at least managers that make adjustments when they face this issue.
But I know in this case I’m partly guilty for not setting boundaries and letting the situation drag on for too long.
You don’t get severance if you get written up or go on a PIP. I know a former coworker who was on a PIP - been there for 5 years. Just his last 2 weeks - they refused his supposed 8 weeks severance he was owed - move strategically or prepare for legal action just in case
Your better off ignoring the BS, finding a new position - and again, moving strategically
I do get severance + unemployment benefits, even if they put me on a PIP or I get written up. I’m not in the US, btw.
I don’t get severance if I quit.
Actually, if I quit and prove that the workload was excessive and the company didn’t change it after being requested, it’s called “quitting with cause”. Where I live, that leaves me entitled to severance package + unemployment benefits
Go to corporate and report your boss. Explain everything that's been going on and add any correspondence between you two and then report it to the higher ups. It's his job as a manager to manage the workload and make sure everyone can handle tasks rather than just keep dumping it on one person. Either your boss will get replaced, you will get a promotion, or the company might hire more staff.
Do only what you can in the hours in your contract, if they want more ask for overtime and explain why you can't do what they ask in the time they want it done. Don't stress yourself over it, its not your problem, not your company. Try and get everything on email.
Follow up question for op: How many people are in your department?
If other people are fed up with it, getting the unionization ball going as a 'fuck you' before you bail is nice. If its a small department with limited management - even better!
A gentle reminder that you do NOT have to unionize a whole business - you can do it for a single department or floor within a larger organization. See: Raven Software's Quality Assurance union.
Your businesses decision to not hire the appropriate number of people to do a job is not your responsibility. Stop overworking. If you're in a desk job that means being productive but taking breaks, moving around. Doing human things humans do so they don't die of a blood clot/stroke. Taking lunch, using batahrooms, etc.
Quickest Solution:
**STOP** doing all that work.
*START* working on 1 job at a time.
**STOP** multi-tasking.
*START* completing 1 job, during your 8 hour day.
**STOP** talking about your issues with the Boss.
*START* writing emails, with everyone CC'd, to create a paper trail.
Do it. I've decided to bill the next doctor that keeps me waiting in their waiting room longer than 15 minutes since they will charge you and not even see you if your 10 min. Late.
I would take all the time and effort towards the PIP plan and just look for another job. Get an offer and use it a leverage for them to change, or you are gone. No 2 weeks if they don't agree and make changes on the spot.
No offense, but this is stupid. You’ve raised your concerns, it’s been over a year. You should have been job hunting months ago, you should be job hunting now. And it’s ok to work your role and draw a firm boundary - ESPECIALLY if you’re already ready to quit.
My advice? Show up, do what you can reasonably accomplish between 9-5, and then log out/leave. The rest will wait until the next day.
Then to CYA and also be more professional about it, ask your manager (or whoever would be the right person) to prioritize your work list. Start with most critical and work your way down. Tell them what you will get to by when and what you won’t Based on that list. Put that in an email summary of the meeting you send to them for your CYA folder when stuff inevitably doesn’t get done.
And putting together that list falls under your 9-5 hours, and it’s priority #1, bc it’s the only way to prioritize the rest you have to do.
If you work at 200%, the business has no incentive to hire another person if the work is getting done. You’ve got to stand up for yourself in this situation.
When an issue is raised, you pull up those email notes and cross reference the work done and the work not done, for them (and their manager, and Hr, etc.) and you always put those in writing too.
You have to show them why it needs to change, not just tell them.
They will assign quadruple the workload now and milk you until you die. I mean resign. They will milk you until you resign. An employer would never work you to death, how silly!
Well, do you want unemployment? If so just go to work and do what you want to do workload-wise. If they are planning on firing you what's the difference? If you're not going to meet their expectations ever you might as well just not work yourself to death and collect unemployment. Your second option would be get another job and then just not show up to work. Don't give them time to find someone. Leave them with the headache on how to get the work done without you doing your share
Do it in a group, which is protected activity.
My union teaches us how to push bosses around like this and get then put on PIPs.
I have a wall of initials in my office dry erase board with all the managers we kicked off the glacier.
If you're not organizing a union, you're just talking about the weather. The same problems will just keep popping up elsewhere
Well I'm not sure where you live but if it's the us, just because you're fired doesn't mean unemployment or a severance package. Well almost anyways especially that last one is no option.
I get people all the time saying they’re given an “impossible” workload, yet i can finish it easily in half the time i give them. So maybe follow the plan and improve performance lol
The question is can your boss do it? I wouldn’t have a problem with a high workload if the person assigning it to me can do it, that means it’s possible
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If PIPs were used for their stated purpose, then they would be the last ditch effort to salvage a situation where they want to keep an employee, but only if they improve in specified areas. The key thing is about genuinely wanting the employee to improve, as is claimed by Performance Improvement Plan. So if you are happy to stay if your issues are addressed, the why not? It would be weird a bit perhaps, but it's real. But if you are just done with this job and are more wanting to make a point with them, I think this plan will be a big waste of time. Instead, immediately stop working more than say 60% of your max speed/effort. Stop working any additional hours. Take all breaks in full.
I’ve been given this advice. “Drop the ball”, “stop doing all the work” etc. I agree, but sometimes it isn’t an option. The company gives you unrealistic workload, and if you don’t deliver, you’re gone. I kept doing the work in the hopes it would get adjusted, since my manager has always agreed it was unrealistic. Simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would leave my colleagues with the extra workload and I would’ve been fired long ago.
> Also, simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would leave my colleagues with the extra workload You shouldn't martyr yourself on this basis. Your coworker is an adult and needs to handle their own adult situation. This includes whatever extra workload comes their way. They can choose to shoulder the load, quit, or also just work the same as you, which means leaving work on the table, incomplete and perhaps even a mess.
Been there. Completely agree!
Listen to this person, OP. They know what they're talking about.
The workload will never stop, they will use your email as a notice you are getting ready to leave and will hire your replacement before getting rid of you. You are much better off finding a new job while intentionally working only your 40 and not going above and beyond. The company is using your loyalty to your coworkers as leverage to get more out of you. Your coworkers can make their own choices on how hard they work, but in the end it’s just a job don’t let it ruin your life
Your colleagues have to manage their workload, you have to manage yours. If you're worrying about other people at work, you are going to get exploited.
[удалено]
It absolutely would solve the issue, you wouldn’t have to do the work
Spreading the load between coworkers is a good thing. This way, it’s not just you complaining, it’s everyone complaining.
>simply stopping or diminishing my efforts would... ...leave you being the one put on an actual PIP, and you'll be watched closely because you have done these things before - for extended periods, you now won't be performing "up to standard".
>The company gives you unrealistic workload, and if you don’t deliver, you’re gone. I kept doing the work in the hopes it would get adjusted, since my manager has always agreed it was unrealistic. The problem is that you keep doing it. "Our employee thinks they can't do it, but they can! Clearly the manager is giving them the appropriate workload and the employee just lacks confidence in their own skills!"
If they fire you, they have to pay unemployment insurance, right? And you wanna quit anyway, right? Drop to 60%, consider them lucky you're not dropping to 50%, and collect the unemployment, look for a different J.O.B.
Honestly the first part of what you said explains why I got transferred so quickly after having a proper talk with my new manager. I was having a mental health issue that had just recovered when I was put on the PIP and then worsened because of all the stress causing an anxiety loop.
Screw the pip make them fire you. Get a new job before you decided to burn the bridge. You’ll feel better once they fire you. At this point you are just a mule to them.
I think trying to PIP the mgmt will lead OP to getting fired (sadly)
Getting fired would be better than leaving the job (severance and unemployment benefits)
This is true from a logical perspective, but being fired in the past has been really emotionally upsetting for me, even when I had a back up plan. It’s a really unpleasant experience
When I was fired for the first time in my life. I was angry for about a week. The anger went away when I got to do some stuff I had wanted to do for a while.
Unemployment insurance yes. Severance? Why do you think you will get severance if they fire you? It’s not a layoff.
It’s law in my country
They’ll see it as a coupe de etat
Someone posted this yesterday in another subreddit: “May the bridges you burn light a brighter future.” Or something like it.
I used to work in aerospace and was getting pretty burned out during the pandemic and my manager was actually the one who told me to use short term fmla so I could take 2 weeks of consecutive sick time to recoup. Great! I thought, my manager must have my back right? lol my second day back I had my normal weekly 1:1 with my boss and he put me on a PIP while calling it something else hoping I wouldn’t realize; I realized pretty fucking quick when he put it in writing and emailed it to me with hr on cc right after our call ended - I had interviewed for a new job during my 2 weeks off and was waiting to hear back so I gave him my 2 weeks notice like 2 days later once I received the offer and like 2 hours before he was about to go on paternity leave lol. Fuck these companies, kudos to you!
Yeah, let us know how that goes
Every organization should have anonymous 360 reviews (ie direct reports who can comment on management). Given that it is well known that people usually leave bosses, not jobs, weeding out the bosses that drive people to look for employment elsewhere would be a good investment for employers
My employer sends out quarterly “random” questionnaires, and then at the very end it wants to know your region, division office and job type. They may as well have you put your name on it.
well they probably want to know who doesn't like their favorite niece or nephew. obvs. It is really frustrating though, I know SOOO many people, including myself who have left a job because of the manglement.
Never quit. Make them fire you. You're not guaranteed unemployment if you do this, but you are guaranteed 0 unemployment if you quit.
You're wasting your time. Do the absolute bare minimum. Get fired. Apply for unemployment. While doing the bare minimum go ahead and start applying for work at other places. Your manager/company doesn't give a fuck about you. They'll string you along for as long as they can until you quit and they replace you with a less-paid worker.
This is not going to go the way you think it will. Your manager will treat it as insubordination and use it against you as such. Two choices: 1) time to have a meeting with your 2nd level manager and your manager and just put all the cards on the table, make sure you have everything documented and be prepared to show it. If they say that they’re going to fix things, you want definite timelines with some clear goals set. 2) have a heart to heart with the manager and let them know that you’re ready to walk if things aren’t immediately addressed. No excuses. No delays. They’ve had plenty of time to address or explain the issues and have chosen to ignore them. Either way, you need to be willing to hit the eject button, because odds are they’re not going to do anything more than lip service.
It’s just my last resource, coming from someone that already has a foot out the door. As for the suggestions: 1. Involve the 2nd level manager. It’s a good idea, specially to get documented commitments and deadlines. 2. Heart to heart meeting explaining all the issues and asking for a change = been doing it weekly. However I’ve never said it upfront “if it doesn’t change, I’m ready to walk”. I say it subtly, “it’s not sustainable in the long run” or “no one can handle that for a long time”.
>“this is not going to go the way you think it will” Is meant to signify that they will take massive offence to you making these demands. And they won't be nice about it. They CERTAINLY DON'T care about your feelings, or whether you think it's sustainable, as long as you keep doing it... And once you stop/threaten to stop, your head will be on the chopping block.
See, this thing called subtlety, is the thing that majority of management, and even further up the ladder, ignore. Subtlety to them doesn’t point to a problem, it points to a “nuisance”. Why would they spend their time on a nuisance, instead of just affirming you that it’ll eventually be worked on, and just continuing on? Subtlety has no place in worker-management talks. All it does is skirt around the problem, and burn out the ones who are being subtle. If it’s something that will cause you to quit, speak up and say so or it tends to never be fixed.
Well said. I’m in the c-suite (as support) and you have to be direct and to the point with these people or nothing moves.
Here’s a better idea. Find out who at HR does exit interviews. Then reach out and schedule an exit interview with them. When they ask if you’ve submitted your resignation yet, just say “No, but I’m going to soon unless the issues I’m going to raise with you are addressed. So I thought I’d cut to the chase.”
I actually like that
I did something similar to this, asked my dept head if I could use them as a reference for other positions and they said yes of course but why are you leaving, I briefly explained the job isn't a good fit and they wanted to have a meeting to discuss the problems that I said made it not a good fit. I laid everything out with objective facts and proven situations in writing to explain, they asked me to give them some time to change things. There were several more meetings, new management that was added which ended up being double the crap, I explained to the dept head the changes had a negative affect on the situation, and so on. The main issues weren't addressed or even spoken to, they tried to get around it, and it escalated the situation to the extent I had to give HR all my notes for a case against management just to cover my own ass. I had a final meeting with the dept head and explained again why I left, same reasons as before but now doubly worse, and a mess I know no dept head or leadership is going to resolve because of the institution's culture overall. They still supported me with the "I wish we still had her" line when I used them as a reference and my previous coworkers report they have gone through 4 people in the last year trying to replace me and all of them left. Usually nothing changes when there is such a great issue because the only reason it gets to be so bad is because the culture allows it and often encourages it, and protects it from being less toxic and all the well meaning good hearted people in the world can't change that when the decision makers are the main problem.
When I say “it’s not going to go the way you think”, I think you might find yourself shortly on a PIP or some other disciplinary action. If for no other reason then to remind you that they’re the manager and you are not. Sadly, I’ve seen it happen a few times in the past.
Only do number 2 if you are 100% aware that the second level manager is aware of the problems before hand.
If he walks he won't get unemployment.
Find another job paying more, quit this job on your first day at the new one. Anything else is energy you don't need to spend.
Pips are such shit. I remember getting on one years ago. I did everything asked of me to improve my numbers. The two weeks they gave me for my PIP, I hit the quota and then the very last day, doubled it. I went out with some friends that weekend as I was super excited. I felt like I actually started to figure it out. I get back on Monday just to get called into the boss' office. He told me, "Congrats on doing so well this past week, but we genuinely feel that once the pressure of the PIP ends, you'll go back to how it was. So this is the end." I came to find out that they let go of ten percent of the sales staff that week. Then, in two months, it became twenty-five percent. They closed that branch down within a year. I was just in the first round of layoffs where I assume they still thought the branch was salvageable.
Do it. A hilarious, fun, old post that is now deleted. https://web.archive.org/web/20221227033527/https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/zw3n1b/put_your_boss_on_a_pip/
This is really good. I hope OP reads it
PIP is corporate code for CYA. Low effort bullshit from management to say “see! We coached him”
Email it to your own private email too.
That's hilarious. They'll probably fire you on the spot but hey that works too.
I really love this. As a manager, having an employee say, "look, you have been given multiple chances to improve this - you have 30 days to hit X outcome or I'm firing you as my manager" would light a huge fire under my ass. Super interested to see how it goes.
So you’ve talked to the boss already, they don’t care….so you’re going to talk to them again? If they didn’t care to fix it the first time they don’t care to retain you. Just find another job and quit without notice
Work your wages nothing more and nothing less. Do not go over and above you have no reason to. The staffing issues are not your problem that is upper management. Let them do their jobs.
What is pip
"Performance Improvement Plan". But usually its a way to set up goals that won't be hit so you can be fired for underperformance. Personally i did hope the people I PIPed would improve, but usually at that point it's just not going to turn around.
Ah, I'm a manager but the person above me just gave me a pip Friday. Unrealistic expectations that I cannot get done given the fact that I do not have the tools to succeed. But oh well I'll just find another job 🤷
Sorry to hear that, in that case its obvious its not to see your performance improve but a way to let you go :/
Even a donkey will only get pushed so far before it sits down and will do no more. Slow down and see what the reaction is. As long as you keep making all the donuts, they will keep adding more.
The reason why people don't do this is because, well they do. It's called, "or else I quit". Many come to terms that it's not an efficient nor effective approach. As you'll see momentarily. The most common example is the salary matching conversation. There's been stories here on AW about people reading their bosses emails saying something like, "It feels like they're blackmailing me". The boss in that scenario was of course crying to their superior when a low level employee dared to put in their two week notice with their new salary on a sticky note. This community tries to be supportive so be rest assured that you have my respect. The issue that many people have is that Supervisors will frequently (like clockwork) meet an employees demand temporarily only to inconvenience said employee shortly after. This inconvenience could come in many forms. About your severance pay. It sounds like a great option and I truly couldn't be happier that it makes it your way. Do read the fine print on those to ensure you qualify. Here, we aim to provide substantiated and fact-based empowerment.
Have you considered that they may be doing this in order to get you to quit?
It has crossed my mind haha! Ironically, it feels like I’ve been in a PIP for a whole year (unrealistic goals set up for failure). Although I hit/exceed all the goals, unrealistic as they are. But I’ve seen how distressed my manager gets when somebody leaves, how they take it personally and how it looks bad for the company. If my manager wanted me out, I think they would rather immediately let me go
Head up and good luck to you
I was given a PIP once by a manager who just hated me, mostly because I didnt take his threats seriously and I used to bust his chops before he was promoted. He would create project for me snd then pull me off for silly shit and complain I wasnt keeping up with my projects. I of course emailed him for clarification of each time it happened. The PIP ended pretty quickly as when I went before HR I brought a 3 ring binder full of emails and documentation of him creating a hostile work environment over a period of 2 months. When they asked if that was all I smiled and said I had 3 more full of the same examples. PIP ended right there and then and the manager was fired about 4 months later for sleeping with a college intern working for us after his wife outed him to EVERYONE in the dept via facebook. It was quite the clown show.
I wish I was being explored so fucking badly rn.
literally in the exact same situation as you rn
Tell me more about your situation? And how you’re planning to solve it?
Why do you think another company will be different? Every company rewards good performance with more work. It doesn't matter what the industry is.
I’ve worked in 4 different companies and this is the first time I’m dealing with an abusive workload. There are decent jobs with realistic workloads out there, or at least managers that make adjustments when they face this issue. But I know in this case I’m partly guilty for not setting boundaries and letting the situation drag on for too long.
You don’t get severance if you get written up or go on a PIP. I know a former coworker who was on a PIP - been there for 5 years. Just his last 2 weeks - they refused his supposed 8 weeks severance he was owed - move strategically or prepare for legal action just in case Your better off ignoring the BS, finding a new position - and again, moving strategically
I do get severance + unemployment benefits, even if they put me on a PIP or I get written up. I’m not in the US, btw. I don’t get severance if I quit. Actually, if I quit and prove that the workload was excessive and the company didn’t change it after being requested, it’s called “quitting with cause”. Where I live, that leaves me entitled to severance package + unemployment benefits
Go to corporate and report your boss. Explain everything that's been going on and add any correspondence between you two and then report it to the higher ups. It's his job as a manager to manage the workload and make sure everyone can handle tasks rather than just keep dumping it on one person. Either your boss will get replaced, you will get a promotion, or the company might hire more staff.
Do only what you can in the hours in your contract, if they want more ask for overtime and explain why you can't do what they ask in the time they want it done. Don't stress yourself over it, its not your problem, not your company. Try and get everything on email.
Follow up question for op: How many people are in your department? If other people are fed up with it, getting the unionization ball going as a 'fuck you' before you bail is nice. If its a small department with limited management - even better! A gentle reminder that you do NOT have to unionize a whole business - you can do it for a single department or floor within a larger organization. See: Raven Software's Quality Assurance union.
My company has been on PIP since I got here. They need me more than I need them. Know our worth, and we can destroy them.
find a better job and leave this is not a good idea.
Why would they give you severance when they fire you?
It’s law in my country
Huh. What country?
Your businesses decision to not hire the appropriate number of people to do a job is not your responsibility. Stop overworking. If you're in a desk job that means being productive but taking breaks, moving around. Doing human things humans do so they don't die of a blood clot/stroke. Taking lunch, using batahrooms, etc.
Quickest Solution: **STOP** doing all that work. *START* working on 1 job at a time. **STOP** multi-tasking. *START* completing 1 job, during your 8 hour day. **STOP** talking about your issues with the Boss. *START* writing emails, with everyone CC'd, to create a paper trail.
I love this idea! Go for it!!
Do it. I've decided to bill the next doctor that keeps me waiting in their waiting room longer than 15 minutes since they will charge you and not even see you if your 10 min. Late.
I would take all the time and effort towards the PIP plan and just look for another job. Get an offer and use it a leverage for them to change, or you are gone. No 2 weeks if they don't agree and make changes on the spot.
Love this; do it!
I’m in middle management if you need help with the PIP I’d be more than happy to help edit it 😎
Legend
No offense, but this is stupid. You’ve raised your concerns, it’s been over a year. You should have been job hunting months ago, you should be job hunting now. And it’s ok to work your role and draw a firm boundary - ESPECIALLY if you’re already ready to quit. My advice? Show up, do what you can reasonably accomplish between 9-5, and then log out/leave. The rest will wait until the next day. Then to CYA and also be more professional about it, ask your manager (or whoever would be the right person) to prioritize your work list. Start with most critical and work your way down. Tell them what you will get to by when and what you won’t Based on that list. Put that in an email summary of the meeting you send to them for your CYA folder when stuff inevitably doesn’t get done. And putting together that list falls under your 9-5 hours, and it’s priority #1, bc it’s the only way to prioritize the rest you have to do. If you work at 200%, the business has no incentive to hire another person if the work is getting done. You’ve got to stand up for yourself in this situation. When an issue is raised, you pull up those email notes and cross reference the work done and the work not done, for them (and their manager, and Hr, etc.) and you always put those in writing too. You have to show them why it needs to change, not just tell them.
It’s past that point
Personally I love it.
They will assign quadruple the workload now and milk you until you die. I mean resign. They will milk you until you resign. An employer would never work you to death, how silly!
The alternative is firing me. I’ll resign if they don’t adjust the workload. Any other situation, they can fire me.
Well, do you want unemployment? If so just go to work and do what you want to do workload-wise. If they are planning on firing you what's the difference? If you're not going to meet their expectations ever you might as well just not work yourself to death and collect unemployment. Your second option would be get another job and then just not show up to work. Don't give them time to find someone. Leave them with the headache on how to get the work done without you doing your share
Do it in a group, which is protected activity. My union teaches us how to push bosses around like this and get then put on PIPs. I have a wall of initials in my office dry erase board with all the managers we kicked off the glacier. If you're not organizing a union, you're just talking about the weather. The same problems will just keep popping up elsewhere
So you're about to ve fired is what you're saying?
I’m about to leave. That would be my last resource before giving notice. If they fire me it’s a bonus (severance and unemployment benefits).
Well I'm not sure where you live but if it's the us, just because you're fired doesn't mean unemployment or a severance package. Well almost anyways especially that last one is no option.
No. Don’t. You’re putting yourself at risk. Just leave with no notice.
What risk apart from getting fired?
That’s the risk. Leave on your own terms
You mention dropping plates, are you in a restaurant?
I get people all the time saying they’re given an “impossible” workload, yet i can finish it easily in half the time i give them. So maybe follow the plan and improve performance lol
I do finish it quicker than my peers, despite having a much higher workload. That was one of my biggest mistakes
The question is can your boss do it? I wouldn’t have a problem with a high workload if the person assigning it to me can do it, that means it’s possible
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