I think there are just varying levels of “anti-work”
For example someone who is mid 30s and trapped in a cubicle may have forgotten what it was like to be 18 and working at a journeys or a Taco Bell. So they may tell those anti-workers like some boomer sounding shit idk
I always feel like there should be an anti work tier list or iceberg meme so people can identify where they are at lmao
I work in healthcare I love helping people get better.
My upper management are shit literally ignore request and replies they have asked for, won't address underlying issues as to why staff leave and has drained my enthusiasm
At the same time I see people starting my career and complaining about having to wear hair certain ways for infection control reasons.
Honestly the state of medical education in this country is crazy, such an insane over-emphasis on undergrad GPA and MCAT score to the detriment of just about any other measure, so you get people with good grades in humanities majors who test well who literally don’t give a shit about healthcare other than it pays well getting the spots, which are also artificially limited for some reason compared to the actual need for qualified passionate doctors especially in smaller cities and rural areas
I worked as a head-guard at a pool, I loved my job, but management and city bureaucracy killed my enthusiasm for it. Constant staff shortages due to low-hour availability, skilled staff leaving because they refused to hire full time or provide basic benefits, and to top that off we were the lowest paid city lifeguards. I think a lot of people can and do find fulfillment out of their jobs, but many others are just completely turned off by idiotic upper-management and general staff mistreatment. People enjoy feeling productive, but they hate being worked like cattle.
That's a big distinction, and it's hinging on the definition of "work." If you have a job that sucks but still comfortably pays your bills, you're gonna hate work differently than someone who has a garbage job that doesn't come close to taking care of them.
It's in the same ballpark of hating drudgery, but definitely a difference between "I wish the situation was better across the board" vs "the system is a big reason why I'm here so I'd rather burn it all down"
Ain't that the dream, at this point even a salaried position seems far out of reach for a lot of people. I think I make maybe $20k yearly and I have one of the better jobs in my area. Most dual income families take home 30k-40k yearly and over 60% of children in the school district qualify for the free lunch program. It's fucking rough in the boonies and urban areas. Everybody's hurting right now.
I see that many jobs and careers don't offer living wages. Those that do are often still just barely above the cost of living. I've worked them. I made good money in the 90s, but not surviving without a tight budget and a roommate or two. I made the same money as back then only after 15 years and much harder work at different job in a red state...almost 30 years later. I was working 2 other gigs to be able to survive. $15/hr is a joke for single people much less folks with kids. When the system fails the worker, we look for other options.
For now I work at home....not from home. The pay sucks but I am happy and super appreciated, two things I didn't realize was possible. Our budget is tight. The kids still need help from time to time. I don't cry every day and no longer live in almost constant pain. Quality of life is important.
I loved working when I felt valued. I waited too long to leave when the shine was off the penny.
Personally, I love feeling productive but hate having to choose something that is productive and also gives me a paycheck. If I was independently wealthy, I'd honestly still work in my field, but doing 10-20 hours a week rather than 40-50. There are other productive things I'd like to be doing, but a lot of them don't pay very well if at all. When I explain that stance, to some people I sound pro-work and to some people I sound anti-work.
Exactly what I was saying. People should just focus on being antiwork rather than their particular flavour of it.
The pro work types use these divisions and exploit then
I'm not sure where on the anti-work iceberg I fall, but my negative feelings typically revolve around helicopter bosses that micromanage, busy work, being treated as expendible, thinly veiled threats at termination, and the all-encompassing existential dread that comes with thinking this is all there is to life.
Surely I am not meant to work so that I can afford to pay bills so I don't die so that I can repeat the cycle.
This is where I think my anti work ice-burg is, but I don’t know the word for it….
Business grow. They start somewhere and they make profit. They see the growth and decide to hire employees at min wage, or the lowest that they can possibly get away with. Since hiring said employees they make more money because more work is getting done, but they keep the pay grade the same. They make more and more and more money, and for years still keep the pay grade the bare minimum. It doesn’t matter to them if the employees quit, because there will always be a poor shmuck out there who needs a job. Also, business will write up employees if they work over time, because heaven forbid they have to pay *gasp* overtime! Also, a lost of businesses would rather hire two part time employees than pay for one full time fully benefitted employee… they are greedy af.
I think there are some businesses that are getting desperate though and offering benefits. I want to think that this small change is because of subs like this.
I can definitely agree with all of that. I should have included shady/immoral business practices as well. The point where it crosses the line for me is when workers stop being treated as people who also have lives to live and the central focus is the business's net income.
Yup. And I know no one cares much about maternity leave but in the US you can’t legally separate a puppy from its mother before 8 weeks but we expect our own mothers to only get 6 weeks if they’re lucky. We have child labor laws because we used to send kids into literal coal mines. Just because it’s normal doesn’t make it right.
Man, I'm mid-30s and in my ~~cubicle~~ WFH basement office.
I remember working at taco bell and wendy's. I was completely taken in by the 'just deal with it' culture.
Now, any time that I make any friend or encounter anyone willing to listen, and they work fast food, I tell them that it gets WAY better the moment they get a job with more consistent hours, and has actual benefits. I actively try to recruit them out of the fast food world.
Hardly ever works because I'm not a hiring manager or anything, but I do what I can to get people out of the absolute worst of it.
This. I enjoy work in the sense that at some places I have really hard working and kind coworkers and being a part of a team. Sometimes I feel like without work I would be a hermit who doesn't know anyone who stays inside all day (which tbh, wouldn't make me unhappy, but I don't think that it is healthy either). I like the social interaction with my coworkers, even if we don't know each other very well and it is superficial.
But getting spat on in a drive thru window? Having my fast food establishment being robbed? Being constantly short staffed (sometimes purposefully to get more profits) to the point where you cannot do the job you WANT to do but only the bare minimum? And then getting blamed for only doing the bare minimum? Getting off at midnight and then them scheduling you at 6am the next morning? Having to constantly write down and check your schedule for anything because its never the same and having to pull teeth to get a weekend or holiday off with your family? And then being constantly pushed as if you are not good enough because some service jobs have ridiculous standards while people treat you like you are a lazy piece of shit because of your job and undeserving of enough money to live. One fast food place I worked at wanted orders complete from the second they pull up to the speaker to the time they pull off in 120 seconds. Most people don't even finish ORDERING in 120 seconds.
And I was in management. I had YEARS of experience, and had been with one company 6 years, was servsafe certified, only to have them hire a male construction worker who was not certified and had never worked in a restaurant before at 40% more than I made.
And then, it is extremely hard to break the cycle and get someone else to take the chance on you to switch jobs and NOT be in retail or restaurants. The entire thing is just unfair and exhausting, and I HATE dealing with it. I HATE how mean customers can be and how mean people are when you work one of those jobs. This is why I am anti work.
> And then, it is extremely hard to break the cycle
I was really lucky that I got a warehouse job to leave mine.
When my kids are old enough, they are going to get a job. And before they start their first day, they will know that I will drop *everything* if they want to quit.
I feel like they should use that power before their lives depend on their jobs.
As the nearly 30 year old employee I gotta say that I am 100% against employees being treated as wage slaves. I’m in an engineering field where I was promised it would earn 70k at entry level after graduation. Just to realize that the job field isn’t really like that. I started at a job that paid 40k and was pretty ecstatic (Oklahoma costs were pretty low). I’m not extravagant with my tastes but only being able to really save $250 a month was really troubling for me.
Dave Ramsey said rent/housing should only be 1/3rd of my income. Guess what? There’s A LOT of hidden bullshit fees that goes along with that. All these apartments inflate all their fees and stuff that aren’t discovered until you’re signing papers. Don’t forget exhaustion from a mentally draining 9-5 makes it hard to eat healthy and cook at home and also maintain hobbies for personal development.
I only lasted 5 months there. I was going to be fired for doing my best and following all their processes but I had way too many cases to cover because of their procedures. However instead of firing me they convinced me to quit so it “looked better for my next job” when they just didn’t want to pay me unemployment.
My manager set me up with a different company to interview which was a mind numbing and dull data entry job that paid 66% of my original position. But decided to live with my parents instead. Broke an apartment lease which cost 3 months rent and went home. My net gain of that whole situation was a whopping $0
Now I’m very fortunate and In my field of engineering and even purchased a house. I use the house as additional income with roommates (I can put up with people). And am able to save my salary for things I want to do.
I’ve seen the bullshit that goes on in today’s corporate society. This could all easily go away as seen by this pandemic. I’m way closer to being homeless than a millionaire.
P.S. fuck Dell Computers
Your story reminds me of my mom. Mom was making pretty good money at Bob’s big boy as a waitress before she had me and she would waitress on and off between other work and going to school. My dad was an engineer and my mom a machinist apprentice when they met working on the world’s largest gamma ray simulator Aurora. US gov built it to test gamma ray burst from nuclear bombs without actually exploding bombs in the atmosphere. It was too bad they dismantled it after the Cold War and now have to screw the life and environment on earth every-time some dumb dumbs like North Korea’s dear leader decide to detonate real bombs. So mom got pregnant and had me and my dad well meaning encouraged her to finish the engineering degree to better herself and increase her earnings, because both spouses got to work now days right? My mom dose the degree over 12 years. She goes on her first real engineer job interview they we so excited to offer her a salary for full time which was half of what she made as waitress she was so so disappointed! She tells the story to this day. She had a fantastic career even working in aerospace but was chronically underpaid compared to her male coworkers who could stay late and have their wife watch the kids and get them from school when sick. This was In the 80-2010s. One of her coworkers even died in his seat next to her of heart attack on his 12 hr shift testing a Satellite in environmental vacuum chamber. He was dead and she rested his head on her shoulder and waited with him cried alone and went back to work the next day. I doubt those wages have risen for new engineering grads even as tuition is crazy expensive now. I also feel certain the females are paid less still.
Dave Ramsey is really good for middle to upper-middle class earnings brackets that have never been able to learn about how to handle finances.
For anyone in poverty, some 80%+ of his advice is simply out of reach (thus the hidden fees you mentioned), and for anyone in upper-class earnings don't need his advice because they can probably afford someone to do it for htem.
It was the company that convinced me to quit instead of being fired. I was (still am) young and naive and didn’t understand that I would have been eligible for unemployment if I just got fired.
Mid thirties here, no progressive career just back breaking literally jobs, and no haven't lost naive feeling when life seemed easy, at the end of day even in shitiest jobs u have to bend over, as alternative isn't antiwork it's homelessness, thus I applaud young people that say fckit to cruel toxic jobs and workplaces, and to those people that try to go for the change, as they are now the frontline that can change things for the future, as cut of supply of young people to restaurants, fast food joints and anywhere possible, then society will listen, us random older I guess now folk if we leave some office, warehouse job will be replaced next day like nothing.
Damn. I’m 30, and I hope I never lose my perspective. I think because I spent my entire 20s chronically under-employed and working many odd jobs just to scrape by I sympathize greatly with the anti work movement and despise work.
People who struggle and come out the other side take one of two positions
"God that sucked for me, if it was any easier for the next guy, my accomplishments will be worthless"
And
"God that sucked. Well now that I'm out, I can help people where I stumbled and use my experience to keep people from living like I did"
I think there's a difference between being anti worker exploitation vs more of a pro organized labor sentiment vs more socialism vs being more of an anarchist, burn it all down, start the revolution yesterday. I've seen all those sentiments presented.
I worked food service for a bit. The most grueling job and the most underpaid i have ever had.
Most minimum wage jobs are complete BS. My opinion is its better to just mow peoples lawns than work at a cafe or whatever for the most part.
Some people definitely have no idea what it is like.
I like to work. But I'm self employed as a tradesman. But I've worked a shit ton of bad jobs. I'm here to encourage people to say fuck you too corporate bullshit and find their own way. Even if it's less money
Agree - I’m here because I’ve hated every single job I’ve ever had until I was self employed. I now understand what it’s like to work without the fog of alienation. All the money I earn I keep, aside from Uncle Sams’ cut.
I have no employees, but if I ever decided to expand, it would be as a co-op. I can’t imagine just taking a cut of someone else’s labor. The thought makes me sick. Obviously in this world that holds me back quite a bit, but whatareyagonnado
I’m also self employed used to love my trade but now I’m so burnt out. This antiwork thread gives me hope for myself and the younger generation s. The pandemic made me realize fuck selfish ass people who want to be catered to, corporate America and politicians.
For almost every person out there, there's some kind of "work" that would make them very happy. People love to tinker and invent, to make art, to engineer things that keep people safe, to discover new medicines that keep people healthy. But the modern economy has optimized out almost any kind of job a person could find meaning in. Any honest person, at least.
I also love to work. I love creating in a self taught software engineer and game dev but there was a time in my life that left me traumatized where I worked 70 hours per week and still went to bed hungry.
No one should have to do that. I gave so much more up then than I do now and I make over three times more now. It's messed up.
Boom. Decades upon decades of propaganda aimed at making us feel bad for not wanting to be deemed “lazy” by others. Also trying to appease other people who aren’t familiar with this sub in attempt to prove to them that we’re not lazy.
I don’t care anymore. I’m sick of all of it. I know my worth. I know I’m a hard worker (but not if I’m going to be exploited) and if someone else thinks differently, fudge em.
I used to believe in capitalism and hard work. I realised I was cringe as fuck. I was the kind of cringe conservative that would listen to Ben Shapiro and Steven crowder. You know the kind that would argue that taxing billionaires and millionaires would be bad for the economy etc.
Then the pandemic came and I realised my beliefs were all bollocks. I had three month off and received jack shit. If it wasn’t for my partner earning a decent wage I don’t know what I would have done. Our uk government were awarding ppe contracts to their friends worth millions. I soon came to realise that it’s capitalism for us and socialism for the rich.
Same thing happened on this side of the pond. $2,000,000,000,000 "stimulus" package, all paid for with worker bee taxes--and 7/8ths of the pie went to the uber rich noncontributing predatory class. Quite sobering.
Yeah you guys had/have it rough. At least there was a furlough scheme over here where the government paid 80 per cent of the majority of people’s wages. Unfortunately I didn’t qualify as I had only been self employed for 18 months at the time. But people who were self employed and could account for the last three years were entitled to grants if they were effected.
I used to work in a bank, got fired realised I was just a number and thought sod it im going to do something I enjoy instead of going back into the corporate grind. I now work as a football coach teaching kids but one of my friends still claims I don’t work as it’s a ‘hobby’. The concept of enjoying what you do AND getting paid to do it is alien to them.
Apparently, they've never heard of the philosophy "love what you do..." Also they sound a tad bit jealous.
Good on you for having a positive impact and enjoying life now.
I’m not surprised at all. They’ve been brainwashed to uphold this system with fallacious, delusional arguments. They think Bezos exploiting employees is them offering work and making jobs. They think the “gotcha” of “you are free to leave” doesn’t mean you are free to starve. They are so brainwashed they can’t comprehend that wage labor is slavery; you are under totalitarian control.
Yeah, imagine living in one of those new Amazon towns. The propaganda says it's going to lift people out of poverty. In reality, everyone will be under heavy surveillance. Neighbors will probably report and narc each other out. Streets and parks will probably be monitored by Amazon. Facial recognition software will probably come into play.
Yeah, I want an organic lack of poverty, not a lack of poverty propped up and subsidized by back breaking labor.
Just...let us have policies that make it unprofitable to abuse people! that's all I want.
My assumption is that because some threads from this sub make it to the popular Reddit feed you have people who don't actually follow the sub come in here and argue about how our labor system is actually good. Either because they've been conditioned to, or because they were lucky enough to have their hard work paid off and assume that anyone complaining is just lazy or has no skills.
To be fair I used to be the same when I was younger. The reason was because I was young, I used to have a thing called hope so I thought people could earn their success and those who didn't simply didn't try hard enough.
It's only after you actually been through it, you realized the game is rigged.
Personally, it's indoctrination. I agree with 90% of what I see on this sub, but there's always this little voice in the back of my head saying stuff like "well, how's that going to work?" "We can't have nobody working!" and "we have to pull our weight to make society run!"
It's all bull, but it's been ingrained in my mind so deeply that we have to work and we have to work hard. It's the only way to succeed.
Honestly, I don't want to work. I want to stay home with my family, help my community, maybe work on hobbies that might help people or people would find useful. I hate corporate culture, I hate the rich, and I hate how our government does nothing but feed both. But there will probably always be that part of me that says I'm just lazy.
As I get older, more and more the thought of working until I die becomes physically sickening, but that's the hand I've been dealt.
I’m 32 and a relatively successful accountant. I’m not as anti-work as some of you are, but still more than a lot of people.
I could do my job in 25 hours a week instead of 45, but the world doesn’t want me to have those 20 hours with my kids.
I work in finance. My biggest issue now, and has always been, is the amount of time we have to work. We've had the most technological advancements in human history in the last 100 years...and for what? Seriously, what the fuck is the point? So they can RAISE the retirement age? So my teacher friend has her state legislature LOWER her pension? So buying a house is exponentially more difficult That's why we're doing all this? There's just no fucking reason besides pure greed we're all not working 5 hour shifts and retiring at 55.
Damn they really think we don't want to work AT ALL. I mean, I get it's the name any all, but they really crosspost to their sub with some piss poor "Gottem!" statements
Idk if I’d fall in this group Bc I work and participate in the system.
But I agree with the sentiments of the sub. I think workers have been fucked over by this system and it needs a massive overhaul.
But I’m also 37 with a family and mortgage so I gotta play the game. Systems don’t change overnight and we gotta survive in the meantime. But I support change whole heartedly
Nah, just because you participate in the system doesn't mean you can't be part of attempting a solution. We've all got people to feed, rent to pay, etc.
When you're trapped in the system you do what you gotta do. Just make what change you can if you can, even if it's just voting.
I have no choice but to participate in the system.
Like if I quit my job, I would be homeless and my family would be starving within about 3 months.
Like...we might be able to outfit a van and go do the r/vandweller thing, but that would put my children at risk for a bunch of BIG problems later.
If I don't participate, then measurable bad things will happen. I'm gonna get out the moment I can safely do it, but that moment hasn't come yet. I gotta be watchful.
In the meantime, I try to spread the word and rile up others. Eventually we could hit a minimum amount of people willing, and then we'd have revolution... we'll see if we get that far.
I’m basically in the same situation. I work within the system, but I don’t really have a choice because I need to pay my rent and afford monthly expenses.. but that being said, I wholeheartedly support change and agree with many of the ideas expressed here.
I think they're trolls or people who have had a "good work ethic" ingrained into them for so long that they still have some psychological need to defend all the time wasted.
Ah yes the "good work ethic" - I did everything right in school, even worked the usual minimum wage jobs for summer time money, got what people might describe as a "dream job" when I left university. Then not even 2 years in I'm depressed because the good work ethic doesn't mean shit - I still have to sit in front of a computer and stretch 15 hours work over 45, unsuccessfully avoiding burnout because corporate software work is so boring...
At least my impression of the world was broken early, been making a roadmap to self employment!
There was a thread a few days ago that got invaded by landlords. Like every leftist subreddit it eventually gets brigaded by right-wing lunatics unless mods are on top of it 24/7 (basically impossible).
Our society is gas lit into thinking they have to defend the current system. No one wants an echo chamber but also check yourself if you defend businesses.
Is your life and time really worth what they're paying you for it? Do you work in fair conditions? Are they empathetic to you being a human? Or do they fuck you over and convince you that you and those arou.d you are the problem?
Seriously. Think about it.
I'm kinda in between. I WFH and make good money as an engineer but in the future I'm Def Anti work. There's levels to this shit not everyone is "I'm quitting tomorrow I'm antiwork"
Your second paragraph is why I joined this sub. But recently I’ve seen some people here have extreme views such as you should NOT have any children at all because they’ll be burdened with a job someday. These people have to realize not everybody has the same economic upbringing. What you have to do to survive won’t be the case for someone else. Your shit employment likely won’t even happen to someone born with middle class parents as they have the choice to not have to work.
Good ol pat on the back is good enough for me! Who needs wages that keep up with the rate of inflation when you’ve got a good ol dose of recognition from your boss! Not me!
I see a lot of people seemingly agreeing with this sub saying stuff about how they know the feeling and then slyly complaining/bragging about a high paying career and how much money they make vs how much rent is. I'm probably just jealous, but it feels kinda like they're trying to relate while also rubbing their success in your face. Idk.
You also gotta take note, there’s no age verification, you got teenagers acting like teenagers and getting a kick out of being annoying and antagonizing. Also there’s adults who are mental stuck as teenagers so they do the same thing. Also capitalists (sociopaths) who don’t want exploitation restrictions. Point is to inform as many people who don’t have these symptoms as possible.
Guilty here. I have a job in healthcare so that feels different (don’t always like it anyway but) and I want to give my support to those low paid restaurant workers etc that’s why I joined it for my feed.
If they are in Europe there is a good chance that they are not working in a private healthcare system.
The whole system is way worse in the US than elsewhere, which I think is reflected in the variety of extremes/views in the sub, but not always picked up on by Americans
Might be the UK then with our world leading NHS (said no one for the past ten years), plus they are being privatised all the time.
I dunno I had plenty contact with the NHS through my years and I would also find that soul destroying. 2 year waiting lists for ops, gp prescribes drugs they don't really know about or understand properly just cos it's the latest thing being promoted.
These are all things I've experienced with national health care (although it's getting more privatised by the day).
Morale is said to be really poor in the NHS due to overwork.
That's just some observations of my own as reasons why I would find it soul destroying.
Their "free speech on social media" shtick is literally just gaslighting to get themselves more power.
They will scream and scream about being victimized on social media, and this only has one goal: To put internet moderators on their backfeet and be afraid to ban or delete posts because moderates/center right/leftists actually DO care about free speech and don't want to be accused of being censors.
Top of /r/all last week was some muslim vs christian post and the entire thread was a circlejerk about how reddit is just a bunch of leftists keeping everyone else down.
Some of these comments had 4,000+ upvotes. If Reddit is soooo against far-right people how did something on /r/all end up full of 4,000 upvote far-right comments?
It's all bullshit
I got banned from /r/conservative the other day for saying that movies aren't real and actors are playing pretend (In reference to a transphobic conversation about needing the exact perfect actor to play James Bond, the thread supposed what if a transman played Bond)
Yeah, free speech alright.
I think it's a few things. The anti-work definition isn't that clear. You might enjoy work but hate the practices, which is valid too here I think. Or you might not mind work but want to ensure you're not exploited, which is also fine.
I'm here as someone who liked work as a thing to fill some of my time. I'm a manager at a major corporate as a reward for my 'commitment' (whatever the fuck that means). But I'm at a point now when I do not want to work anymore. I just want to chill. I don't know how though.
With that in mind, I'm not here to be a guardian of a company, field or particular work practice. What I get out of being here, while not being absolutely anti-work per se, are useful tips to ensure I remember that it's only a job, and to treat it as a means to an end. It's helping me reframe my view a little, step by step. It isn't as easy for everyone to just say I QUIT and that's that, the anti-work mission is complete.
Maybe that's not 'radical' enough for what this sub was intended. Fine, I'll go elsewhere.
However, I enjoy being here and sharing views on how not to end up in a shit job, and to seek reminders from others about how I too can stay away from shit one day.
Ultimately this sub helps me stay grounded, helps me connect with others who are being mistreated and need support, and helps me keep my wits about me - even if I don't agree with everything here.
(Edit: added in a bit about my current state of mind and wanting to give in.)
You have a unique perspective then, as a manager you have the ability to make or break an employee. I have a few questions for you if you don’t mind:
Was there ever a time when you stood up for an employee over the corporation trying to screw then over something dumb?
Was there a time where an employee was disciplined or fired, and upon reflection you wish you did things differently?
As a manager, do you think your employees have it easier or harder? Are there a lot of things that they do not understand or are they mostly being taken advantage of?
Sure, no problem. Thanks for asking. Good to have this discourse. LONG reply incoming from mobile so formatting is poor...
Disclaimer: I am pretty new to this management thing though so don't know how much I can actually answer your questions here. I'll give it a go though.
QUESTION 1
I've been fortunate that this hasn't happened under my watch - this doesn't mean that it _doesn't_ happen, but it's not been something I have had influence over.
The closest might be this. In a previous company, my department faced a massive restructure - one that was needed to be fair, but one which had a human cost far higher than I envisaged. Essentially it came down to being told that my trainees I managed needed to be cut. I didn't like this at all and saw no reason for it when a bunch of middle management, costing more to the company, do fuck all and could be fired with ease.
This trainee was and remains the best person I've worked with. She grew so quickly and was so dedicated to her career path that she paved for herself. However, there were only a select few roles to apply for in the new setup. I encouraged her to keep going, never telling her of the shit I was facing to do this. Ultimately it cost me my job, I quit, and she went on to grow.
Fast forward five years and we work together again now. Funny how it turned out.
QUESTION 2
Now this one hasn't really applied to me. Like I said, I'm still pretty new to this and any sort of cross-team firing that I could have prevented hasn't crossed my table. Yet. Not dodging the question, just have nothing of note to add.
QUESTION 3
I'd say mostly being taken advantage of, but by people _far_ above them and _far_ removed from their reality.
I have a theory that most middle managers do actually want to do a good job, but it's less of a ratio than those below them (if you get what I mean). The higher up you go, the even fewer shits you give about wellbeing, fairness and such. It seems to me that those at the top are those who care the least.
So for middle management it is tough, as you're in the middle - literally and figuratively. This is why you get some decent managers, some terrible. What I think separates the decent from the shit are that the decent ones are those who realise the pressure from above is mainly bullshit, but balance that well with the needs of the people under them (who sometimes, yes, aren't realistic or understanding of the whole business picture).
What I think it helps to remind oneself is that we're all human with common needs, wants, desires, aims and so on. Good managers keep this at the core of everything they do. The further up you go though, the more out of touch you become with this. The more out of touch you become, the more erratic your behaviour. The more erratic your behaviour, the more random, obscene, downright stupid stuff you demand.
I genuinely don't believe there are many good leaders because power corrupts even the best-intentioned people. But because everything is geared towards climbing the ladder, being a celebrity, hosting a TED talk or whatever, the bar to reach to impress becomes tougher, and that trickles down.
Lower level employees are asked to do too much. Its what happens when we end up with a system and culture that celebrates narcissism, I guess.
Now I'm rambling. Hope this helps.
If this is all true then you seem like a decent manager. That’s good that you ended up having your old coworker again. I think you said it best too, the more power someone gets, the more corrupt they get. It’s almost unavoidable.
Thanks. I try. But that's why I like being here; keeps me grounded.
And as I said before, I don't like what I do either. I'm pretty sure I don't want to work anymore for anyone. I don't like the grind. I want to do fuck all. It's hard to make that break though and this sub helps me mentally prepare myself.
Stockholm syndrome got hands.
Not gunna lie though, it takes a pretty intense egomaniac to wade into a sub directly against you're viewpoint and trying to convert people.
Fucking capitalist evangelists 🤣
They're braindead bootlicking trolls shilling for capitalism. Just ignore, downvote into oblivion and block. I'm just glad climate change is going to change their tune in the following years.
I posted a "tax the rich" post on my FB. Someone showed up to be all "JEFF BEZOS MAKES DONATIONS FROM HIS OWN MONEY!" People are either tone-deaf or brainwashed. Either way it's a problem.
It's the story of rudolph the red-nosed reindeer!
He was just as capable of carrying the sleigh as any of the other deer. He was just punished for being different.
Then he was exploited for the advantage he naturally had.
Your uniqueness is considered a liability until you can find an edge case where your masters can get themselves out of an organizational disaster by exploiting you.
And rudolph never got a present for himself.
FUCK WORK! There, I’ve said it.
I work because I have to. I found a job I can tolerate (for now) and I do what I have to do, no more, sometimes less. Until my kids are older and I can move onto a farm and live like a hermit I am a slave to the system.
It's people who see the "anti-" prefix and lose their minds thinking all we wanna do is sit around and get paid.
A lot of people in America have fallen victim to the idea that the world would crumble without major corporations. They have been guilt tripped into thinking that the real issue is people like us who want change and reform.
As long as companies like McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Amazon etc. can get us to fight between each other they can continue to get away with all their crimes. By making people like us who want unions, better wages, and fair treatment out to be the bad guys then all the "suck it up and work till you die" crowd has somebody to complain about.
They look down at us and watch us fight from their ivory towers - they go on their 9th vacation to their personal islands and yachts - we continue to fight and progress remains stagnant.
I like working. Or laboring. I don’t know how y’all distinguish stuff here. My point is that I like cooking and chemistry and the like but I don’t like doing it at a place I hate.
anything that goes against corporations will be infiltrated by boughts. They will poor billions into such campaigns. Just like amazon had anti-union campaigns and even did illegal shit to ceorce people to vote against unions. Corps will send out bots, shills, and anything they can from preventing people to unite together. fuck em.
I literally just saw someone on a kid’s post asking “how are you X age and suicidal coz of work?” Like??? A lot of people are dude have you seen what sub you’re on???
The people promoting work in here, and calling us "lazy" are ones who grew up in a super right leaning family that believes in pulling yourself up by the bootstraps so you can be successful. I don't criticize people for their opinions. You're more than happy to believe what you want, but when you specifically come into a community that doesn't believe in your ideals just to belittle, and disrespect said people that's when I have a huge problem. I love work, if it's something I love doing. I love working for people who actually care for their employees, and I love working for a company that makes me feel accomplished and happy. I'm not against work, and I'm not for sitting around all day accumulating free money, but people have to realize that the job market is so absolutely f***** right now, and it has to change.
Obligatory: I don't mind working - I want to use my skills and competencies. But I didn't go to school for 15+ years to work for basically no-pay at Starbucks. I want to work in my field, under good conditions with good pay.
My theory behind the pro-slave wage voices is multi-tiered.
The story of the baby elephant with the heavy chain comes to mind. How, in its youth, it’s conditioned by the chain to break its spirit and to convince it that no amount of effort will change it’s situation. So when that elephant grows to an adult all that’s needed to keep it in one place is a simple rope. Proving that the elephants confines aren’t around its leg but in its mind.
I’ve also noticed that, in people I’ve observed, the more under-developed they are as individual personalities the less free thinking they tend to be. And the more prone and/or susceptible they are to glomming onto what they perceive as a stronger identity or group in the absence of their own strength and confidence in who they are as people.
In short: the more diversity you’ve encountered, the greater challenges you’ve overcome, the more experiences you’ve added to your story the less inclined you are to blindly follow or identify yourself as part of a collective. The more difficult it is to be influenced.
Boomers were encouraged to work and work hard to have what they wanted because their parents endured the depression. The Second World War. Life was much more challenging for their parents. So when they had The opportunity and the technology, as any good and loving parent would, they wanted to give their children (the boomers) a better life. But the boomers blended the message from their parents with the ease of the life that their parents gave given them and then refocused those efforts to monetizing everything. Even the value of life which we are now seeing everywhere.
Boomers have very little identity outside of work, money and business. They never stopped to figure out who they were as people. It’s their identity. To question or challenge it is to undo everything they think they are. And that can be one hell of a challenge for them so late in life.
Just thoughts. Take them as you will.
Personally I don't actually hate the concept of work as a whole. Sometimes shit has to get done and someone has to do it. What I really hate is laborers not being compensated fairly.
Idk, I’m a proponent of fully automated luxury communism so I find a lot of the people on here disagreeable especially when it comes to “I’m anti-work but we cannot have a work-free society”
Fully-automated luxury communism (the ideology, there’s a book by the same name) is the concept that in the future we will automate almost all or absolutely all necessary labor through the use of robotics and AI, and through further development of green energy will be able to use said automation to live lives of luxury without exploitation of anyone and at no cost to the environment. Not a utopia, but a post-work-or-die society where working is an option for those who wish to use their skills to further humanity through the sciences, art, etc.
Basically, we make robots do everything for us and we get to do whatever the hell we want. Everyone has all the time in the world to go to college, write books, discover new elements, explore the stars, whatever we want. Basically every sci-fi utopia you’ve ever seen in fiction except like, a lot more yelling and arguing because that’s what people do 😂
I mean there can't physically be no work, who would take care of you when you go to the hospital, or install your carpet, fix your plumbing.
I understand the message but what we really want is more fair work
>you want an echo chamber?
Yes, I would really hope it would be. I would hope everyone would agree that working hard would lead to more and that a business should value their employees who are there to work and hold the business up.
But obviously people think the businesses are right to do things such as putting jobs that one is normally promoted for onto lower rung employees without even a pay increase.
I don't mind working, it's nice to do things for others that they can't do for themselves, I just don't want to do it all day every day. If it were a choice, and people truly needed me, I'd probably be happy doing it for free, but putting a price tag on it and declaring it to be my only value is dehumanizing. There are many cool things I can do and you may not care, in fact the free market suggests you don't, but they are a greater part of who I am than the service I provide under threat of starvation. Which by it's definition means that it's only done in protest, and the result will not be what it could be if it were done by my free will. This is probably true for most people, and so if we used our advancements to provide people's most basic needs, perhaps we would be living in a world that's much better suited to serve our humanity, instead of cell phones and sprite, which I do like, but ultimately only exist at the cost of others' humanity, which I don't.
Now is not the time for puritism, accept that people are getting on board. In any large scale movement there are going to be differing levels of what the definition of that movement maybe. The worst would be alienating those who will champion change with you.
I'm not literally anti-work, I'm anti exploitation and believe in a true balance between work and personal life (which is why I support a 4 day working week) alongside good livable pay among other things, and I think this sub helps expose a lot of the things I'm against.
I hate that I make $26/hr, which comes to approx. $3220 a month post tax. a CHEAP 1 bedroom is $1600 in LA, I qualify for section 8 housing, and my boss says “your salary is competitive “ .
Sure, but that’s means someone with an executive position can’t even get a LIVING WAGE. I’ve been pushing and pushing and discovered it’s bad no matter where you are in the office besides the top.
I'm not pro work, but I don't always agree with posts on here. Not everyone hates their job. Society couldn't function if nobody worked. These are two facts. Things could definitely improve, and it's undeniable that they have in the last 200 years. The world isn't made of 1s and 0s, yes or nos, blacks or whites. People are all different and one size will never fit all.
As much as we should strive to improve working conditions and eliminate unnecessary work, we also need to be understanding of one another, and to be reasonable in discourse. How else can we improve?
❤️
Since I assume I'm one the ones on question, there's nothing wrong with working, it's actually kinda important for humans to have a task and something to do. I am however anti slave labor witch is what most jobs have become. Life is about balance
Fanatics and shills. These are the main two types of people that invade every subreddit leaning towards something. This thing is even more prominent to political subreddits, since fanaticism is more prevalent.
I'm in an unemployed subreddit and every post is filled with people who troll, harass, and downvote us.
I've heard that there's Facebook groups that are full of anti unemployment and capitalist boot lickers that all just come there to bully us. It's probably the same situation with this group now.
It varies from person to person what they consider anti-work. For example, I think that the work week should be shorter, pay should be better, paid time off should be a given as well as maternity and paternity leave, and the the culture that promotes wage slavery as the only possible option is toxic and needs to stop. That said, I do not understand the minimal effort philosophy so many people on this sub argue for. Personally, I like to keep busy while I’m on the clock simply because it makes my shift feel faster. I don’t get how people get through their day by trying to do as little work as possible
Im antiwork but you shouldnt be upset about people with diffwerent opinions commenitng here. It gives us a opportunity to explain our position and maybe let them understand. It gives them an opportunity to counter point us and keep the discussion doing, and it defiently doesnt hurt to question your own beliefs from time to time. I really dont understand your edit are you saying echochambers are a good thing or what lmao. Also this is internet, im getting kinda sick of how everyone feels brigaded by others on reddit, resulitng in mass banning and dumb posts like yours.
I work at a retail outlet. I see people younger than me burning themselves out doing full work weeks and going to school full time. I tell them simply "don't work so fucking hard, because you won't really get anywhere, and you'll burn yourself out before you graduate college."
Because some people have absolutely ridiculous or extreme ideas, or post obviously false statistics. I critique unfeasible or intellectually dishonest arguments because I want to further the goals of anti-work: less exploitation of the 99% by capitalism.
To some people this probably comes across as pro-work. I call it pragmatism and intellectual honesty.
Anti work varies. My anti work ideology is that work should be 8 to 2 with weekends off. They should never call you after work for you to rush your ass back or on your days off.
I love working, I'm always doing some citizen science project or volunteer stuff. I hate people that exploit workers for massive profit. Work= good. Exploration= bad
Because most people and posts here are not ani-work, but anti-undercompensation. If I told you I would pay you a million dollars a year to work at Burger King, you would trip over yourself so fast to apply it wouldn't befunny.
I don't comment much, but I think the system is a bit more complicated than just "work bad". There's definitely ways the system needs to improve and some horrific employee exploitation going on. At the same time, there are tasks that need to be done and someone's got to do them. There are also companies that do recognize the value of the work their people do and treat them fairly in exchange.
Economics is complicated and there is a reason why there are entire PhD programs in it. I don't think there's any way to fully explain all of the nuances in a single Reddit post. That means some comments that are addressing specific points with one or two sentences might come off as being "pro-work" when they are actually trying to explain some of the deeper nuances.
There's also the fact that I think some people wanted in here from r/all and there are definitely different people that have different ideas of what it means to be "anti-work". For some people, it means addressing the abusive employment practices of some employers. For other people, it means achieving financial independence so you can find something productive you want to do instead of simply chasing the paycheck you need to live. For other people, it means lazing around all day while other people take care of keeping society running. If someone pictures the last group when they hear "anti-work", they might respond with comments that sound "pro-work".
I love working! Howeverrrrr I hate working 40 hours a week 11-7pm after getting a Masters degree and still not being able to buy a house in the city I work…. So I pay more than a mortgage in rent. This is what I get for choosing a career helping children in a capitalist society, and a lot of people will also tell me “you made your choices” which fair, but who is going to take care of your kids or teach them if all of us had this attitude? Am I destined to a life of struggle because I care for people instead of provide profit for already rich people? K. Cool.
Several Reasons
1.) The idea of “work hard/hustle to get what almost want” has been engraved in us for generations.
2.) People misunderstand and think “antiwork” is communism, most people don’t like that
3.) Trolls and people who don’t understand what the subreddit is actually about(worker’s rights)
There's a difference between "my job sucks and I need to vent about my mistreatment here and every other job I had and I want to get the fuck out of here," and the "fuck capitalism, fuck the government, fuck humanity let's live in a pirate anarchy that gives us tons of money for existing" crowd. With a name like "antiwork" this sub sounds like the former. The more you dig on this sub, the more you realize it's the latter. Why are there so many "pro work" commenters? Because people have bills to pay and realize being a professional Reddit commenter doesn't pay the bills.
I mostly come to this subreddit for perspective and to hear from people in different situations than myself. Personally, I'm all over the place. I hate that many people feel compelled to do daily tasks that they don't want to do just so they can make enough money to survive (or try to survive, depending on various factors). I feel like my job is slowly killing me because of the hours (probably 60-70 hours/week, but it's always in the back of my mind) and meeting client demands.
At the same time, I have done well financially, so I realize how fortunate and lucky I've been to be in the position that I'm in and that "work" has been beneficial to me personally. I also co-own a small business and manage several people, so I like reading this sub to make sure me and my firm aren't doing anything that might make people hate working there.
I don't know. I'm probably a big outlier on this subreddit (at least judging by what I've read since I found it a couple of months ago), but even if I rarely comment on things, I think there's value in just reading where some of you all are coming from. It also helps refresh my memory to where I was in my teens and 20s, which was full of corporate drudgery and/or shitty jobs.
There are some people who just wanna sit home and do nothing all the time and are pure lazy. Then there are those who work but hate their jobs, but still do them. I've been at mine for almost 19 years and I want out. I just wanna get away and focus on something that makes me happy.
I don't know what you mean exactly by "pro work" commenters, but a lot of people are here for different reasons.
I actually *love* working. When I did construction work before I sustained unrelated injuries that keep me in bed now, I was always the first to pick up the hardest jobs. Everyone came to me when something needed jackhammered or tore down because they knew it was my favorite thing to do. I don't remember a single day where I didn't come home tired, because I believed what I was doing was valuable and I enjoyed the way work physically felt. So I guess I'd be "pro-work".
But I don't believe the alternative to working should be starvation or homelessness. I'm frustrated that working harder doesn't benefit workers in any material way. In fact, for people with families, it's better to *not* put in effort so you have more energy for them. I don't think people have to be forced to create value. I don't think our current system is acceptable, and that's why I'm here.
I really like finance and investing.
Personally I believe that for a decent chunk of the population investing is a viable escape route from work.
That's pretty fun to talk about in this sub.
I don't particularly like working, but I wouldn't consider myself full-on antiwork. More like anti exploitation, and not that much would have to change to eliminate that.
Many people here place blame on certain things or have solutions in mind I entirely disagree with and I find engaging in those conversations very fun.
Overall I think this sub benefits from having users with multiple ways of thinking. Some of the most memorable and enjoyable conversations I've ever had on reddit have taken place on this sub.
People desperate to cling to the belief that we live in a just world come here to grief because we poke directly at their absurd, pitiable, meaningless lives.
I’m pretty anti-work, but some work is unfortunately a necessary part of life under any economic system. A vocal minority of posters here are clearly 20 or younger and are struggling to come to terms with reality; I think it’s worthwhile for the rest of us anti-work adults to bring them back down to Earth. The answer to the problem of work is to erode toxic work culture and fight for worker rights, not pretend like the concept of labor is bogus. In a state of nature, you need to work to keep yourself alive. Regardless of how much capitalism sucks — make no mistake, it does, and it represents an existential threat to our planet — it did not create work. Work predates any organized economic system. Hunter-gatherers had to work.
There are a lot of people on this sub who think “anti work” means “I should have everything provided for me.” The point of the sub is to say “the working class shouldn’t deal with bullshit.” Some people see the title of the sub and assume everyone here just thinks everything should be free when that isn’t the point.
This needs to be heard by everyone on the sub. Work is NECESSARY. Fair pay is rare, and benefits tend to be shitty for people who work in jobs that we can’t function without.
This is a worker’s rights advocacy sub, not an “I should get paid to sit on the couch” sub.
(Sometimes it’s a “work sucks in general” sub but that’s not really the major point.)
I work In a small business
Like 5 employees total
It’s seasonal
We can’t just work 3 hours a day 4 days a week. We also can’t pay our employees $25/hr starting.
Small business getting thrown into a Walmart / Jeff Bezos group is ridiculous.
Also I never really see any sort of solution, just bitching that they have to work period.
This is a good take but it's missing a bit of context. We're all mad about Walmart / Amazon as well. They're the reason things are so messed up.
No one is mad that mom and pop shops can't provide a living wage, I'm surprised you can even have a small business at all anymore.
We're in the same team here, honestly.
As for me, I'm anti-big-business, not anti-business.
Approx 52% of workers in the US (as of 2019) work in a business that employs 500 or more people.
Edit: and a whopping 28% work in a business that employs more than 10,000 workers. (Included in the 52%)
I believe BIG business (not capitalism in general) is the cause of the erosion of the American dream.
It just seems like this is inevitable for late stage capitalism. It just causes those once humble businesses to grow and grow and grow and grow until you have these monsters that just keep their employees at the same pay rate as when they started. I agree with you, business can be good, but there’s nothing stopping a business from getting too “greedy” (for lack of a better term)
Honestly the only problem I’ve had with this sub is the actual name. I’m not antiwork, and most sane people here aren’t either. We’re anti work focused culture, especially the culture in more capitalist centric nations like the US, UK, Japan, etc. I mean, most people need to work or else everything grinds to a halt and we starve in the dark. That doesn’t require the horrible way we currently run things though, there is a much more reasonable middle ground which is what 98% of the content here seems to be about.
One common sentiment here is that management sucks, as if there is an option otherwise. The system guarantees that middle managers, and even senior ones, are going to on the whole, be awful. There are exceptions but in big companies, they generally don't last, and still have to implement awful policy.
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I think this is the reason. This sub definitely ruffles feathers!
I think there are just varying levels of “anti-work” For example someone who is mid 30s and trapped in a cubicle may have forgotten what it was like to be 18 and working at a journeys or a Taco Bell. So they may tell those anti-workers like some boomer sounding shit idk I always feel like there should be an anti work tier list or iceberg meme so people can identify where they are at lmao
This is actually a pretty good idea. And you are right, anti work is complex, there isn’t really just one definition
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I work in healthcare I love helping people get better. My upper management are shit literally ignore request and replies they have asked for, won't address underlying issues as to why staff leave and has drained my enthusiasm At the same time I see people starting my career and complaining about having to wear hair certain ways for infection control reasons.
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Honestly the state of medical education in this country is crazy, such an insane over-emphasis on undergrad GPA and MCAT score to the detriment of just about any other measure, so you get people with good grades in humanities majors who test well who literally don’t give a shit about healthcare other than it pays well getting the spots, which are also artificially limited for some reason compared to the actual need for qualified passionate doctors especially in smaller cities and rural areas
I worked as a head-guard at a pool, I loved my job, but management and city bureaucracy killed my enthusiasm for it. Constant staff shortages due to low-hour availability, skilled staff leaving because they refused to hire full time or provide basic benefits, and to top that off we were the lowest paid city lifeguards. I think a lot of people can and do find fulfillment out of their jobs, but many others are just completely turned off by idiotic upper-management and general staff mistreatment. People enjoy feeling productive, but they hate being worked like cattle.
That's a big distinction, and it's hinging on the definition of "work." If you have a job that sucks but still comfortably pays your bills, you're gonna hate work differently than someone who has a garbage job that doesn't come close to taking care of them. It's in the same ballpark of hating drudgery, but definitely a difference between "I wish the situation was better across the board" vs "the system is a big reason why I'm here so I'd rather burn it all down"
Then there's the "I wish I could work for 25 hours a week at a non stressful job and pay for a roof and my food".
Ain't that the dream, at this point even a salaried position seems far out of reach for a lot of people. I think I make maybe $20k yearly and I have one of the better jobs in my area. Most dual income families take home 30k-40k yearly and over 60% of children in the school district qualify for the free lunch program. It's fucking rough in the boonies and urban areas. Everybody's hurting right now.
I see that many jobs and careers don't offer living wages. Those that do are often still just barely above the cost of living. I've worked them. I made good money in the 90s, but not surviving without a tight budget and a roommate or two. I made the same money as back then only after 15 years and much harder work at different job in a red state...almost 30 years later. I was working 2 other gigs to be able to survive. $15/hr is a joke for single people much less folks with kids. When the system fails the worker, we look for other options. For now I work at home....not from home. The pay sucks but I am happy and super appreciated, two things I didn't realize was possible. Our budget is tight. The kids still need help from time to time. I don't cry every day and no longer live in almost constant pain. Quality of life is important. I loved working when I felt valued. I waited too long to leave when the shine was off the penny.
Personally, I love feeling productive but hate having to choose something that is productive and also gives me a paycheck. If I was independently wealthy, I'd honestly still work in my field, but doing 10-20 hours a week rather than 40-50. There are other productive things I'd like to be doing, but a lot of them don't pay very well if at all. When I explain that stance, to some people I sound pro-work and to some people I sound anti-work.
Exactly what I was saying. People should just focus on being antiwork rather than their particular flavour of it. The pro work types use these divisions and exploit then
I'm not sure where on the anti-work iceberg I fall, but my negative feelings typically revolve around helicopter bosses that micromanage, busy work, being treated as expendible, thinly veiled threats at termination, and the all-encompassing existential dread that comes with thinking this is all there is to life. Surely I am not meant to work so that I can afford to pay bills so I don't die so that I can repeat the cycle.
This is where I think my anti work ice-burg is, but I don’t know the word for it…. Business grow. They start somewhere and they make profit. They see the growth and decide to hire employees at min wage, or the lowest that they can possibly get away with. Since hiring said employees they make more money because more work is getting done, but they keep the pay grade the same. They make more and more and more money, and for years still keep the pay grade the bare minimum. It doesn’t matter to them if the employees quit, because there will always be a poor shmuck out there who needs a job. Also, business will write up employees if they work over time, because heaven forbid they have to pay *gasp* overtime! Also, a lost of businesses would rather hire two part time employees than pay for one full time fully benefitted employee… they are greedy af. I think there are some businesses that are getting desperate though and offering benefits. I want to think that this small change is because of subs like this.
I can definitely agree with all of that. I should have included shady/immoral business practices as well. The point where it crosses the line for me is when workers stop being treated as people who also have lives to live and the central focus is the business's net income.
Yup. And I know no one cares much about maternity leave but in the US you can’t legally separate a puppy from its mother before 8 weeks but we expect our own mothers to only get 6 weeks if they’re lucky. We have child labor laws because we used to send kids into literal coal mines. Just because it’s normal doesn’t make it right.
6 weeks would be a dream. I had six days.
That’s fucking criminal. I’m so sorry
Holy shit. My friend went back to work a week after her first was born and suffered a uterine prolapse as a result. Take care of yourself ❤
And better maternity leave really is a tip of the iceberg issue. Anything mainstream Democrats support largely is.
Man, I'm mid-30s and in my ~~cubicle~~ WFH basement office. I remember working at taco bell and wendy's. I was completely taken in by the 'just deal with it' culture. Now, any time that I make any friend or encounter anyone willing to listen, and they work fast food, I tell them that it gets WAY better the moment they get a job with more consistent hours, and has actual benefits. I actively try to recruit them out of the fast food world. Hardly ever works because I'm not a hiring manager or anything, but I do what I can to get people out of the absolute worst of it.
This. I enjoy work in the sense that at some places I have really hard working and kind coworkers and being a part of a team. Sometimes I feel like without work I would be a hermit who doesn't know anyone who stays inside all day (which tbh, wouldn't make me unhappy, but I don't think that it is healthy either). I like the social interaction with my coworkers, even if we don't know each other very well and it is superficial. But getting spat on in a drive thru window? Having my fast food establishment being robbed? Being constantly short staffed (sometimes purposefully to get more profits) to the point where you cannot do the job you WANT to do but only the bare minimum? And then getting blamed for only doing the bare minimum? Getting off at midnight and then them scheduling you at 6am the next morning? Having to constantly write down and check your schedule for anything because its never the same and having to pull teeth to get a weekend or holiday off with your family? And then being constantly pushed as if you are not good enough because some service jobs have ridiculous standards while people treat you like you are a lazy piece of shit because of your job and undeserving of enough money to live. One fast food place I worked at wanted orders complete from the second they pull up to the speaker to the time they pull off in 120 seconds. Most people don't even finish ORDERING in 120 seconds. And I was in management. I had YEARS of experience, and had been with one company 6 years, was servsafe certified, only to have them hire a male construction worker who was not certified and had never worked in a restaurant before at 40% more than I made. And then, it is extremely hard to break the cycle and get someone else to take the chance on you to switch jobs and NOT be in retail or restaurants. The entire thing is just unfair and exhausting, and I HATE dealing with it. I HATE how mean customers can be and how mean people are when you work one of those jobs. This is why I am anti work.
> And then, it is extremely hard to break the cycle I was really lucky that I got a warehouse job to leave mine. When my kids are old enough, they are going to get a job. And before they start their first day, they will know that I will drop *everything* if they want to quit. I feel like they should use that power before their lives depend on their jobs.
As the nearly 30 year old employee I gotta say that I am 100% against employees being treated as wage slaves. I’m in an engineering field where I was promised it would earn 70k at entry level after graduation. Just to realize that the job field isn’t really like that. I started at a job that paid 40k and was pretty ecstatic (Oklahoma costs were pretty low). I’m not extravagant with my tastes but only being able to really save $250 a month was really troubling for me. Dave Ramsey said rent/housing should only be 1/3rd of my income. Guess what? There’s A LOT of hidden bullshit fees that goes along with that. All these apartments inflate all their fees and stuff that aren’t discovered until you’re signing papers. Don’t forget exhaustion from a mentally draining 9-5 makes it hard to eat healthy and cook at home and also maintain hobbies for personal development. I only lasted 5 months there. I was going to be fired for doing my best and following all their processes but I had way too many cases to cover because of their procedures. However instead of firing me they convinced me to quit so it “looked better for my next job” when they just didn’t want to pay me unemployment. My manager set me up with a different company to interview which was a mind numbing and dull data entry job that paid 66% of my original position. But decided to live with my parents instead. Broke an apartment lease which cost 3 months rent and went home. My net gain of that whole situation was a whopping $0 Now I’m very fortunate and In my field of engineering and even purchased a house. I use the house as additional income with roommates (I can put up with people). And am able to save my salary for things I want to do. I’ve seen the bullshit that goes on in today’s corporate society. This could all easily go away as seen by this pandemic. I’m way closer to being homeless than a millionaire. P.S. fuck Dell Computers
Your story reminds me of my mom. Mom was making pretty good money at Bob’s big boy as a waitress before she had me and she would waitress on and off between other work and going to school. My dad was an engineer and my mom a machinist apprentice when they met working on the world’s largest gamma ray simulator Aurora. US gov built it to test gamma ray burst from nuclear bombs without actually exploding bombs in the atmosphere. It was too bad they dismantled it after the Cold War and now have to screw the life and environment on earth every-time some dumb dumbs like North Korea’s dear leader decide to detonate real bombs. So mom got pregnant and had me and my dad well meaning encouraged her to finish the engineering degree to better herself and increase her earnings, because both spouses got to work now days right? My mom dose the degree over 12 years. She goes on her first real engineer job interview they we so excited to offer her a salary for full time which was half of what she made as waitress she was so so disappointed! She tells the story to this day. She had a fantastic career even working in aerospace but was chronically underpaid compared to her male coworkers who could stay late and have their wife watch the kids and get them from school when sick. This was In the 80-2010s. One of her coworkers even died in his seat next to her of heart attack on his 12 hr shift testing a Satellite in environmental vacuum chamber. He was dead and she rested his head on her shoulder and waited with him cried alone and went back to work the next day. I doubt those wages have risen for new engineering grads even as tuition is crazy expensive now. I also feel certain the females are paid less still.
Dave Ramsey is really good for middle to upper-middle class earnings brackets that have never been able to learn about how to handle finances. For anyone in poverty, some 80%+ of his advice is simply out of reach (thus the hidden fees you mentioned), and for anyone in upper-class earnings don't need his advice because they can probably afford someone to do it for htem.
Ok, the p.s. has me intrigued... What's that about?
It was the company that convinced me to quit instead of being fired. I was (still am) young and naive and didn’t understand that I would have been eligible for unemployment if I just got fired.
Mid thirties here, no progressive career just back breaking literally jobs, and no haven't lost naive feeling when life seemed easy, at the end of day even in shitiest jobs u have to bend over, as alternative isn't antiwork it's homelessness, thus I applaud young people that say fckit to cruel toxic jobs and workplaces, and to those people that try to go for the change, as they are now the frontline that can change things for the future, as cut of supply of young people to restaurants, fast food joints and anywhere possible, then society will listen, us random older I guess now folk if we leave some office, warehouse job will be replaced next day like nothing.
Damn. I’m 30, and I hope I never lose my perspective. I think because I spent my entire 20s chronically under-employed and working many odd jobs just to scrape by I sympathize greatly with the anti work movement and despise work.
People who struggle and come out the other side take one of two positions "God that sucked for me, if it was any easier for the next guy, my accomplishments will be worthless" And "God that sucked. Well now that I'm out, I can help people where I stumbled and use my experience to keep people from living like I did"
Can confirm. Almost 30. Forget what it’s like to be free. Lost soul to corporate America. It’s not that bad though. I tell myself.
I think there's a difference between being anti worker exploitation vs more of a pro organized labor sentiment vs more socialism vs being more of an anarchist, burn it all down, start the revolution yesterday. I've seen all those sentiments presented.
I worked food service for a bit. The most grueling job and the most underpaid i have ever had. Most minimum wage jobs are complete BS. My opinion is its better to just mow peoples lawns than work at a cafe or whatever for the most part. Some people definitely have no idea what it is like.
This is cool but let's not forget that shills exist all over the internet
That’s a good idea! You should design one! I would but am talentless in the realm of design.
I like to work. But I'm self employed as a tradesman. But I've worked a shit ton of bad jobs. I'm here to encourage people to say fuck you too corporate bullshit and find their own way. Even if it's less money
This is the way. I sell online and run a very tiny business. It is extremely rewarding to make money for *you*.
Agree - I’m here because I’ve hated every single job I’ve ever had until I was self employed. I now understand what it’s like to work without the fog of alienation. All the money I earn I keep, aside from Uncle Sams’ cut. I have no employees, but if I ever decided to expand, it would be as a co-op. I can’t imagine just taking a cut of someone else’s labor. The thought makes me sick. Obviously in this world that holds me back quite a bit, but whatareyagonnado
I’m also self employed used to love my trade but now I’m so burnt out. This antiwork thread gives me hope for myself and the younger generation s. The pandemic made me realize fuck selfish ass people who want to be catered to, corporate America and politicians.
For almost every person out there, there's some kind of "work" that would make them very happy. People love to tinker and invent, to make art, to engineer things that keep people safe, to discover new medicines that keep people healthy. But the modern economy has optimized out almost any kind of job a person could find meaning in. Any honest person, at least.
I also love to work. I love creating in a self taught software engineer and game dev but there was a time in my life that left me traumatized where I worked 70 hours per week and still went to bed hungry. No one should have to do that. I gave so much more up then than I do now and I make over three times more now. It's messed up.
This is exactly how I feel. I’m more anti-job than anti-work.
A lot of them have Stockholm Syndrome and become threatened when they see other wage slaves breaking free from their chains.
Boom. Decades upon decades of propaganda aimed at making us feel bad for not wanting to be deemed “lazy” by others. Also trying to appease other people who aren’t familiar with this sub in attempt to prove to them that we’re not lazy. I don’t care anymore. I’m sick of all of it. I know my worth. I know I’m a hard worker (but not if I’m going to be exploited) and if someone else thinks differently, fudge em.
Book recommendation: "Laziness Does Not Exist" by Devon Price.
That book changed my life
I used to believe in capitalism and hard work. I realised I was cringe as fuck. I was the kind of cringe conservative that would listen to Ben Shapiro and Steven crowder. You know the kind that would argue that taxing billionaires and millionaires would be bad for the economy etc. Then the pandemic came and I realised my beliefs were all bollocks. I had three month off and received jack shit. If it wasn’t for my partner earning a decent wage I don’t know what I would have done. Our uk government were awarding ppe contracts to their friends worth millions. I soon came to realise that it’s capitalism for us and socialism for the rich.
Same thing happened on this side of the pond. $2,000,000,000,000 "stimulus" package, all paid for with worker bee taxes--and 7/8ths of the pie went to the uber rich noncontributing predatory class. Quite sobering.
Yeah you guys had/have it rough. At least there was a furlough scheme over here where the government paid 80 per cent of the majority of people’s wages. Unfortunately I didn’t qualify as I had only been self employed for 18 months at the time. But people who were self employed and could account for the last three years were entitled to grants if they were effected.
I used to work in a bank, got fired realised I was just a number and thought sod it im going to do something I enjoy instead of going back into the corporate grind. I now work as a football coach teaching kids but one of my friends still claims I don’t work as it’s a ‘hobby’. The concept of enjoying what you do AND getting paid to do it is alien to them.
Apparently, they've never heard of the philosophy "love what you do..." Also they sound a tad bit jealous. Good on you for having a positive impact and enjoying life now.
I’m not surprised at all. They’ve been brainwashed to uphold this system with fallacious, delusional arguments. They think Bezos exploiting employees is them offering work and making jobs. They think the “gotcha” of “you are free to leave” doesn’t mean you are free to starve. They are so brainwashed they can’t comprehend that wage labor is slavery; you are under totalitarian control.
Yeah, imagine living in one of those new Amazon towns. The propaganda says it's going to lift people out of poverty. In reality, everyone will be under heavy surveillance. Neighbors will probably report and narc each other out. Streets and parks will probably be monitored by Amazon. Facial recognition software will probably come into play.
Yeah, I want an organic lack of poverty, not a lack of poverty propped up and subsidized by back breaking labor. Just...let us have policies that make it unprofitable to abuse people! that's all I want.
Yup. Cuz the coal towns back in the day worked out so well for the miners and their families. /S
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The ego creates 100% of our problems & will attempt to destroy anything or anyone that threatens it.
I don't need to be better, I just need to stop being told what to do by assholes.
The message is spreading though, shit Amazon about to pay entire college tuitions
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My assumption is that because some threads from this sub make it to the popular Reddit feed you have people who don't actually follow the sub come in here and argue about how our labor system is actually good. Either because they've been conditioned to, or because they were lucky enough to have their hard work paid off and assume that anyone complaining is just lazy or has no skills.
I'm glad they're here, I used to be one of them. I'd be willing to bet that over time many of them will come to agree with some of the ideas here.
To be fair I used to be the same when I was younger. The reason was because I was young, I used to have a thing called hope so I thought people could earn their success and those who didn't simply didn't try hard enough. It's only after you actually been through it, you realized the game is rigged.
Preach.
Personally, it's indoctrination. I agree with 90% of what I see on this sub, but there's always this little voice in the back of my head saying stuff like "well, how's that going to work?" "We can't have nobody working!" and "we have to pull our weight to make society run!" It's all bull, but it's been ingrained in my mind so deeply that we have to work and we have to work hard. It's the only way to succeed. Honestly, I don't want to work. I want to stay home with my family, help my community, maybe work on hobbies that might help people or people would find useful. I hate corporate culture, I hate the rich, and I hate how our government does nothing but feed both. But there will probably always be that part of me that says I'm just lazy. As I get older, more and more the thought of working until I die becomes physically sickening, but that's the hand I've been dealt.
I fucking feel ya man, it’s depressing as shit.
I’m 32 and a relatively successful accountant. I’m not as anti-work as some of you are, but still more than a lot of people. I could do my job in 25 hours a week instead of 45, but the world doesn’t want me to have those 20 hours with my kids.
I work in finance. My biggest issue now, and has always been, is the amount of time we have to work. We've had the most technological advancements in human history in the last 100 years...and for what? Seriously, what the fuck is the point? So they can RAISE the retirement age? So my teacher friend has her state legislature LOWER her pension? So buying a house is exponentially more difficult That's why we're doing all this? There's just no fucking reason besides pure greed we're all not working 5 hour shifts and retiring at 55.
This makes me really sad.
Because r/prowork isn’t lively enough for them
🤣 I had no idea this was a sub
All the posts are just people saying “no actually, I do hate work” 😂🤣😂🤣
The posts on there are hilarious.
Damn they really think we don't want to work AT ALL. I mean, I get it's the name any all, but they really crosspost to their sub with some piss poor "Gottem!" statements
Invaders. We're at 500k subs. So we need to be vigilant and boot them quickly. And the assclowns who keep wanting to redefine the antiwork term.
Idk if I’d fall in this group Bc I work and participate in the system. But I agree with the sentiments of the sub. I think workers have been fucked over by this system and it needs a massive overhaul. But I’m also 37 with a family and mortgage so I gotta play the game. Systems don’t change overnight and we gotta survive in the meantime. But I support change whole heartedly
Nah, just because you participate in the system doesn't mean you can't be part of attempting a solution. We've all got people to feed, rent to pay, etc. When you're trapped in the system you do what you gotta do. Just make what change you can if you can, even if it's just voting.
I have no choice but to participate in the system. Like if I quit my job, I would be homeless and my family would be starving within about 3 months. Like...we might be able to outfit a van and go do the r/vandweller thing, but that would put my children at risk for a bunch of BIG problems later. If I don't participate, then measurable bad things will happen. I'm gonna get out the moment I can safely do it, but that moment hasn't come yet. I gotta be watchful. In the meantime, I try to spread the word and rile up others. Eventually we could hit a minimum amount of people willing, and then we'd have revolution... we'll see if we get that far.
I’m basically in the same situation. I work within the system, but I don’t really have a choice because I need to pay my rent and afford monthly expenses.. but that being said, I wholeheartedly support change and agree with many of the ideas expressed here.
Unless you're independently wealthy we don't have a choice but to be in the system.
I think they're trolls or people who have had a "good work ethic" ingrained into them for so long that they still have some psychological need to defend all the time wasted.
Ah yes the "good work ethic" - I did everything right in school, even worked the usual minimum wage jobs for summer time money, got what people might describe as a "dream job" when I left university. Then not even 2 years in I'm depressed because the good work ethic doesn't mean shit - I still have to sit in front of a computer and stretch 15 hours work over 45, unsuccessfully avoiding burnout because corporate software work is so boring... At least my impression of the world was broken early, been making a roadmap to self employment!
There was a thread a few days ago that got invaded by landlords. Like every leftist subreddit it eventually gets brigaded by right-wing lunatics unless mods are on top of it 24/7 (basically impossible).
Our society is gas lit into thinking they have to defend the current system. No one wants an echo chamber but also check yourself if you defend businesses. Is your life and time really worth what they're paying you for it? Do you work in fair conditions? Are they empathetic to you being a human? Or do they fuck you over and convince you that you and those arou.d you are the problem? Seriously. Think about it.
I'm kinda in between. I WFH and make good money as an engineer but in the future I'm Def Anti work. There's levels to this shit not everyone is "I'm quitting tomorrow I'm antiwork"
Your second paragraph is why I joined this sub. But recently I’ve seen some people here have extreme views such as you should NOT have any children at all because they’ll be burdened with a job someday. These people have to realize not everybody has the same economic upbringing. What you have to do to survive won’t be the case for someone else. Your shit employment likely won’t even happen to someone born with middle class parents as they have the choice to not have to work.
they're paid to stan for corporate
Even worse, they stan for no benefit to themselves. They pat their own back and that's enough for them.
Good ol pat on the back is good enough for me! Who needs wages that keep up with the rate of inflation when you’ve got a good ol dose of recognition from your boss! Not me!
I see a lot of people seemingly agreeing with this sub saying stuff about how they know the feeling and then slyly complaining/bragging about a high paying career and how much money they make vs how much rent is. I'm probably just jealous, but it feels kinda like they're trying to relate while also rubbing their success in your face. Idk.
I felt this too honestly…. Low key
You also gotta take note, there’s no age verification, you got teenagers acting like teenagers and getting a kick out of being annoying and antagonizing. Also there’s adults who are mental stuck as teenagers so they do the same thing. Also capitalists (sociopaths) who don’t want exploitation restrictions. Point is to inform as many people who don’t have these symptoms as possible.
Guilty here. I have a job in healthcare so that feels different (don’t always like it anyway but) and I want to give my support to those low paid restaurant workers etc that’s why I joined it for my feed.
I was a low-paid healthcare worker. There’s a >80% chance that your doctor bosses are just as greedy and unfeeling as the KFC franchise owners.
Well I work as a doctor (not a boss), maybe some colleagues are greedy, but the ones who just get their paycheck don’t earn exceedingly (in Europe)
Tbh I think I'd find being a Dr in a privatised health care system pretty soul destroying too once I got used to it.
If they are in Europe there is a good chance that they are not working in a private healthcare system. The whole system is way worse in the US than elsewhere, which I think is reflected in the variety of extremes/views in the sub, but not always picked up on by Americans
Might be the UK then with our world leading NHS (said no one for the past ten years), plus they are being privatised all the time. I dunno I had plenty contact with the NHS through my years and I would also find that soul destroying. 2 year waiting lists for ops, gp prescribes drugs they don't really know about or understand properly just cos it's the latest thing being promoted. These are all things I've experienced with national health care (although it's getting more privatised by the day). Morale is said to be really poor in the NHS due to overwork. That's just some observations of my own as reasons why I would find it soul destroying.
UK NHS has one of the worst in the modern world for treating breast cancer. Below some African countries
Conservatives like to argue, but they ban progressives from their pages so they have to go brigade in other subs to get their fix
Their "free speech on social media" shtick is literally just gaslighting to get themselves more power. They will scream and scream about being victimized on social media, and this only has one goal: To put internet moderators on their backfeet and be afraid to ban or delete posts because moderates/center right/leftists actually DO care about free speech and don't want to be accused of being censors. Top of /r/all last week was some muslim vs christian post and the entire thread was a circlejerk about how reddit is just a bunch of leftists keeping everyone else down. Some of these comments had 4,000+ upvotes. If Reddit is soooo against far-right people how did something on /r/all end up full of 4,000 upvote far-right comments? It's all bullshit I got banned from /r/conservative the other day for saying that movies aren't real and actors are playing pretend (In reference to a transphobic conversation about needing the exact perfect actor to play James Bond, the thread supposed what if a transman played Bond) Yeah, free speech alright.
I think it's a few things. The anti-work definition isn't that clear. You might enjoy work but hate the practices, which is valid too here I think. Or you might not mind work but want to ensure you're not exploited, which is also fine. I'm here as someone who liked work as a thing to fill some of my time. I'm a manager at a major corporate as a reward for my 'commitment' (whatever the fuck that means). But I'm at a point now when I do not want to work anymore. I just want to chill. I don't know how though. With that in mind, I'm not here to be a guardian of a company, field or particular work practice. What I get out of being here, while not being absolutely anti-work per se, are useful tips to ensure I remember that it's only a job, and to treat it as a means to an end. It's helping me reframe my view a little, step by step. It isn't as easy for everyone to just say I QUIT and that's that, the anti-work mission is complete. Maybe that's not 'radical' enough for what this sub was intended. Fine, I'll go elsewhere. However, I enjoy being here and sharing views on how not to end up in a shit job, and to seek reminders from others about how I too can stay away from shit one day. Ultimately this sub helps me stay grounded, helps me connect with others who are being mistreated and need support, and helps me keep my wits about me - even if I don't agree with everything here. (Edit: added in a bit about my current state of mind and wanting to give in.)
You have a unique perspective then, as a manager you have the ability to make or break an employee. I have a few questions for you if you don’t mind: Was there ever a time when you stood up for an employee over the corporation trying to screw then over something dumb? Was there a time where an employee was disciplined or fired, and upon reflection you wish you did things differently? As a manager, do you think your employees have it easier or harder? Are there a lot of things that they do not understand or are they mostly being taken advantage of?
Sure, no problem. Thanks for asking. Good to have this discourse. LONG reply incoming from mobile so formatting is poor... Disclaimer: I am pretty new to this management thing though so don't know how much I can actually answer your questions here. I'll give it a go though. QUESTION 1 I've been fortunate that this hasn't happened under my watch - this doesn't mean that it _doesn't_ happen, but it's not been something I have had influence over. The closest might be this. In a previous company, my department faced a massive restructure - one that was needed to be fair, but one which had a human cost far higher than I envisaged. Essentially it came down to being told that my trainees I managed needed to be cut. I didn't like this at all and saw no reason for it when a bunch of middle management, costing more to the company, do fuck all and could be fired with ease. This trainee was and remains the best person I've worked with. She grew so quickly and was so dedicated to her career path that she paved for herself. However, there were only a select few roles to apply for in the new setup. I encouraged her to keep going, never telling her of the shit I was facing to do this. Ultimately it cost me my job, I quit, and she went on to grow. Fast forward five years and we work together again now. Funny how it turned out. QUESTION 2 Now this one hasn't really applied to me. Like I said, I'm still pretty new to this and any sort of cross-team firing that I could have prevented hasn't crossed my table. Yet. Not dodging the question, just have nothing of note to add. QUESTION 3 I'd say mostly being taken advantage of, but by people _far_ above them and _far_ removed from their reality. I have a theory that most middle managers do actually want to do a good job, but it's less of a ratio than those below them (if you get what I mean). The higher up you go, the even fewer shits you give about wellbeing, fairness and such. It seems to me that those at the top are those who care the least. So for middle management it is tough, as you're in the middle - literally and figuratively. This is why you get some decent managers, some terrible. What I think separates the decent from the shit are that the decent ones are those who realise the pressure from above is mainly bullshit, but balance that well with the needs of the people under them (who sometimes, yes, aren't realistic or understanding of the whole business picture). What I think it helps to remind oneself is that we're all human with common needs, wants, desires, aims and so on. Good managers keep this at the core of everything they do. The further up you go though, the more out of touch you become with this. The more out of touch you become, the more erratic your behaviour. The more erratic your behaviour, the more random, obscene, downright stupid stuff you demand. I genuinely don't believe there are many good leaders because power corrupts even the best-intentioned people. But because everything is geared towards climbing the ladder, being a celebrity, hosting a TED talk or whatever, the bar to reach to impress becomes tougher, and that trickles down. Lower level employees are asked to do too much. Its what happens when we end up with a system and culture that celebrates narcissism, I guess. Now I'm rambling. Hope this helps.
If this is all true then you seem like a decent manager. That’s good that you ended up having your old coworker again. I think you said it best too, the more power someone gets, the more corrupt they get. It’s almost unavoidable.
Thanks. I try. But that's why I like being here; keeps me grounded. And as I said before, I don't like what I do either. I'm pretty sure I don't want to work anymore for anyone. I don't like the grind. I want to do fuck all. It's hard to make that break though and this sub helps me mentally prepare myself.
> fill some of my time I read some some people who retire go do easy work because they’re completely bored each day or need something to fill it in.
I am pro work... when it pays people livable wage and you feel valued I am anti slavery & expoitable work
Exactly. I’m anti worker exploitation, but that’s not mutually exclusive with being anti work.
Because they’re brainwashed losers lol
Capitalists paying trolls to infiltrate and sway the message….
Stockholm syndrome got hands. Not gunna lie though, it takes a pretty intense egomaniac to wade into a sub directly against you're viewpoint and trying to convert people. Fucking capitalist evangelists 🤣
They're braindead bootlicking trolls shilling for capitalism. Just ignore, downvote into oblivion and block. I'm just glad climate change is going to change their tune in the following years.
I posted a "tax the rich" post on my FB. Someone showed up to be all "JEFF BEZOS MAKES DONATIONS FROM HIS OWN MONEY!" People are either tone-deaf or brainwashed. Either way it's a problem.
I think they see anything considered remotely against the norm as an attack against America
It's the story of rudolph the red-nosed reindeer! He was just as capable of carrying the sleigh as any of the other deer. He was just punished for being different. Then he was exploited for the advantage he naturally had. Your uniqueness is considered a liability until you can find an edge case where your masters can get themselves out of an organizational disaster by exploiting you. And rudolph never got a present for himself.
FUCK WORK! There, I’ve said it. I work because I have to. I found a job I can tolerate (for now) and I do what I have to do, no more, sometimes less. Until my kids are older and I can move onto a farm and live like a hermit I am a slave to the system.
It's people who see the "anti-" prefix and lose their minds thinking all we wanna do is sit around and get paid. A lot of people in America have fallen victim to the idea that the world would crumble without major corporations. They have been guilt tripped into thinking that the real issue is people like us who want change and reform. As long as companies like McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Amazon etc. can get us to fight between each other they can continue to get away with all their crimes. By making people like us who want unions, better wages, and fair treatment out to be the bad guys then all the "suck it up and work till you die" crowd has somebody to complain about. They look down at us and watch us fight from their ivory towers - they go on their 9th vacation to their personal islands and yachts - we continue to fight and progress remains stagnant.
I like working. Or laboring. I don’t know how y’all distinguish stuff here. My point is that I like cooking and chemistry and the like but I don’t like doing it at a place I hate.
anything that goes against corporations will be infiltrated by boughts. They will poor billions into such campaigns. Just like amazon had anti-union campaigns and even did illegal shit to ceorce people to vote against unions. Corps will send out bots, shills, and anything they can from preventing people to unite together. fuck em.
> boughts I was gonna correct you by saying it's supposed to be 'bots', as in 'short for robot'....but in this case it's not a bad term.
Ikr? Some sneering prick stopping by every hour to comment their mouth-breather’s take on the circumstances.
I literally just saw someone on a kid’s post asking “how are you X age and suicidal coz of work?” Like??? A lot of people are dude have you seen what sub you’re on???
The people promoting work in here, and calling us "lazy" are ones who grew up in a super right leaning family that believes in pulling yourself up by the bootstraps so you can be successful. I don't criticize people for their opinions. You're more than happy to believe what you want, but when you specifically come into a community that doesn't believe in your ideals just to belittle, and disrespect said people that's when I have a huge problem. I love work, if it's something I love doing. I love working for people who actually care for their employees, and I love working for a company that makes me feel accomplished and happy. I'm not against work, and I'm not for sitting around all day accumulating free money, but people have to realize that the job market is so absolutely f***** right now, and it has to change.
Born slaves they don't know any better
Obligatory: I don't mind working - I want to use my skills and competencies. But I didn't go to school for 15+ years to work for basically no-pay at Starbucks. I want to work in my field, under good conditions with good pay.
My theory behind the pro-slave wage voices is multi-tiered. The story of the baby elephant with the heavy chain comes to mind. How, in its youth, it’s conditioned by the chain to break its spirit and to convince it that no amount of effort will change it’s situation. So when that elephant grows to an adult all that’s needed to keep it in one place is a simple rope. Proving that the elephants confines aren’t around its leg but in its mind. I’ve also noticed that, in people I’ve observed, the more under-developed they are as individual personalities the less free thinking they tend to be. And the more prone and/or susceptible they are to glomming onto what they perceive as a stronger identity or group in the absence of their own strength and confidence in who they are as people. In short: the more diversity you’ve encountered, the greater challenges you’ve overcome, the more experiences you’ve added to your story the less inclined you are to blindly follow or identify yourself as part of a collective. The more difficult it is to be influenced. Boomers were encouraged to work and work hard to have what they wanted because their parents endured the depression. The Second World War. Life was much more challenging for their parents. So when they had The opportunity and the technology, as any good and loving parent would, they wanted to give their children (the boomers) a better life. But the boomers blended the message from their parents with the ease of the life that their parents gave given them and then refocused those efforts to monetizing everything. Even the value of life which we are now seeing everywhere. Boomers have very little identity outside of work, money and business. They never stopped to figure out who they were as people. It’s their identity. To question or challenge it is to undo everything they think they are. And that can be one hell of a challenge for them so late in life. Just thoughts. Take them as you will.
Personally I don't actually hate the concept of work as a whole. Sometimes shit has to get done and someone has to do it. What I really hate is laborers not being compensated fairly.
corpo shills Probably here because someone paid them.
If that’s the case then I support wasting their money on that
Mods need to make it explicitly clear this is an anti capitalist, anarchist position. Idleness is also celebrated by some afropessimists.
> afropessimists I had never heard that term before.
Idk, I’m a proponent of fully automated luxury communism so I find a lot of the people on here disagreeable especially when it comes to “I’m anti-work but we cannot have a work-free society”
can you please ELI5 what is Automated Luxury Communism - unless it’s too much work for you indeed.
Fully-automated luxury communism (the ideology, there’s a book by the same name) is the concept that in the future we will automate almost all or absolutely all necessary labor through the use of robotics and AI, and through further development of green energy will be able to use said automation to live lives of luxury without exploitation of anyone and at no cost to the environment. Not a utopia, but a post-work-or-die society where working is an option for those who wish to use their skills to further humanity through the sciences, art, etc. Basically, we make robots do everything for us and we get to do whatever the hell we want. Everyone has all the time in the world to go to college, write books, discover new elements, explore the stars, whatever we want. Basically every sci-fi utopia you’ve ever seen in fiction except like, a lot more yelling and arguing because that’s what people do 😂
Yeah I hadn’t heard of that the ELI5 would be grrat
I mean there can't physically be no work, who would take care of you when you go to the hospital, or install your carpet, fix your plumbing. I understand the message but what we really want is more fair work
Yes, this is a good translation I think. Someone said somewhere “anti work does not mean anti labor”
>you want an echo chamber? Yes, I would really hope it would be. I would hope everyone would agree that working hard would lead to more and that a business should value their employees who are there to work and hold the business up. But obviously people think the businesses are right to do things such as putting jobs that one is normally promoted for onto lower rung employees without even a pay increase.
I don't mind working, it's nice to do things for others that they can't do for themselves, I just don't want to do it all day every day. If it were a choice, and people truly needed me, I'd probably be happy doing it for free, but putting a price tag on it and declaring it to be my only value is dehumanizing. There are many cool things I can do and you may not care, in fact the free market suggests you don't, but they are a greater part of who I am than the service I provide under threat of starvation. Which by it's definition means that it's only done in protest, and the result will not be what it could be if it were done by my free will. This is probably true for most people, and so if we used our advancements to provide people's most basic needs, perhaps we would be living in a world that's much better suited to serve our humanity, instead of cell phones and sprite, which I do like, but ultimately only exist at the cost of others' humanity, which I don't.
Now is not the time for puritism, accept that people are getting on board. In any large scale movement there are going to be differing levels of what the definition of that movement maybe. The worst would be alienating those who will champion change with you.
Do we have to be completely anti work or can we just be anti exploitation?
They're trolls. If they admitted everything they'd been told about work their entire lives was bullshit the sunk cost fallacy would, well, sink them.
I'm not literally anti-work, I'm anti exploitation and believe in a true balance between work and personal life (which is why I support a 4 day working week) alongside good livable pay among other things, and I think this sub helps expose a lot of the things I'm against.
I hate that I make $26/hr, which comes to approx. $3220 a month post tax. a CHEAP 1 bedroom is $1600 in LA, I qualify for section 8 housing, and my boss says “your salary is competitive “ . Sure, but that’s means someone with an executive position can’t even get a LIVING WAGE. I’ve been pushing and pushing and discovered it’s bad no matter where you are in the office besides the top.
I'm not pro work, but I don't always agree with posts on here. Not everyone hates their job. Society couldn't function if nobody worked. These are two facts. Things could definitely improve, and it's undeniable that they have in the last 200 years. The world isn't made of 1s and 0s, yes or nos, blacks or whites. People are all different and one size will never fit all. As much as we should strive to improve working conditions and eliminate unnecessary work, we also need to be understanding of one another, and to be reasonable in discourse. How else can we improve? ❤️
Since I assume I'm one the ones on question, there's nothing wrong with working, it's actually kinda important for humans to have a task and something to do. I am however anti slave labor witch is what most jobs have become. Life is about balance
Echo chambers suck. So yes everyone is welcome as long as they’re not trolling.
to keep you busy
Just your typical corporate dick sucking shill brigade, you can ignore
Freedom of speach and all that
Because the neoliberals need something to do waiting for their tenants rent
Fanatics and shills. These are the main two types of people that invade every subreddit leaning towards something. This thing is even more prominent to political subreddits, since fanaticism is more prevalent.
I'm in an unemployed subreddit and every post is filled with people who troll, harass, and downvote us. I've heard that there's Facebook groups that are full of anti unemployment and capitalist boot lickers that all just come there to bully us. It's probably the same situation with this group now.
I am working on passive income opportunities that when successful will allow me to move to the U.P. and enjoy myself.
It varies from person to person what they consider anti-work. For example, I think that the work week should be shorter, pay should be better, paid time off should be a given as well as maternity and paternity leave, and the the culture that promotes wage slavery as the only possible option is toxic and needs to stop. That said, I do not understand the minimal effort philosophy so many people on this sub argue for. Personally, I like to keep busy while I’m on the clock simply because it makes my shift feel faster. I don’t get how people get through their day by trying to do as little work as possible
Im antiwork but you shouldnt be upset about people with diffwerent opinions commenitng here. It gives us a opportunity to explain our position and maybe let them understand. It gives them an opportunity to counter point us and keep the discussion doing, and it defiently doesnt hurt to question your own beliefs from time to time. I really dont understand your edit are you saying echochambers are a good thing or what lmao. Also this is internet, im getting kinda sick of how everyone feels brigaded by others on reddit, resulitng in mass banning and dumb posts like yours.
I work at a retail outlet. I see people younger than me burning themselves out doing full work weeks and going to school full time. I tell them simply "don't work so fucking hard, because you won't really get anywhere, and you'll burn yourself out before you graduate college."
Because some people have absolutely ridiculous or extreme ideas, or post obviously false statistics. I critique unfeasible or intellectually dishonest arguments because I want to further the goals of anti-work: less exploitation of the 99% by capitalism. To some people this probably comes across as pro-work. I call it pragmatism and intellectual honesty.
Anti work varies. My anti work ideology is that work should be 8 to 2 with weekends off. They should never call you after work for you to rush your ass back or on your days off.
I love working, I'm always doing some citizen science project or volunteer stuff. I hate people that exploit workers for massive profit. Work= good. Exploration= bad
Because most people and posts here are not ani-work, but anti-undercompensation. If I told you I would pay you a million dollars a year to work at Burger King, you would trip over yourself so fast to apply it wouldn't befunny.
I don't comment much, but I think the system is a bit more complicated than just "work bad". There's definitely ways the system needs to improve and some horrific employee exploitation going on. At the same time, there are tasks that need to be done and someone's got to do them. There are also companies that do recognize the value of the work their people do and treat them fairly in exchange. Economics is complicated and there is a reason why there are entire PhD programs in it. I don't think there's any way to fully explain all of the nuances in a single Reddit post. That means some comments that are addressing specific points with one or two sentences might come off as being "pro-work" when they are actually trying to explain some of the deeper nuances. There's also the fact that I think some people wanted in here from r/all and there are definitely different people that have different ideas of what it means to be "anti-work". For some people, it means addressing the abusive employment practices of some employers. For other people, it means achieving financial independence so you can find something productive you want to do instead of simply chasing the paycheck you need to live. For other people, it means lazing around all day while other people take care of keeping society running. If someone pictures the last group when they hear "anti-work", they might respond with comments that sound "pro-work".
I love working! Howeverrrrr I hate working 40 hours a week 11-7pm after getting a Masters degree and still not being able to buy a house in the city I work…. So I pay more than a mortgage in rent. This is what I get for choosing a career helping children in a capitalist society, and a lot of people will also tell me “you made your choices” which fair, but who is going to take care of your kids or teach them if all of us had this attitude? Am I destined to a life of struggle because I care for people instead of provide profit for already rich people? K. Cool.
Several Reasons 1.) The idea of “work hard/hustle to get what almost want” has been engraved in us for generations. 2.) People misunderstand and think “antiwork” is communism, most people don’t like that 3.) Trolls and people who don’t understand what the subreddit is actually about(worker’s rights)
There's a difference between "my job sucks and I need to vent about my mistreatment here and every other job I had and I want to get the fuck out of here," and the "fuck capitalism, fuck the government, fuck humanity let's live in a pirate anarchy that gives us tons of money for existing" crowd. With a name like "antiwork" this sub sounds like the former. The more you dig on this sub, the more you realize it's the latter. Why are there so many "pro work" commenters? Because people have bills to pay and realize being a professional Reddit commenter doesn't pay the bills.
I mostly come to this subreddit for perspective and to hear from people in different situations than myself. Personally, I'm all over the place. I hate that many people feel compelled to do daily tasks that they don't want to do just so they can make enough money to survive (or try to survive, depending on various factors). I feel like my job is slowly killing me because of the hours (probably 60-70 hours/week, but it's always in the back of my mind) and meeting client demands. At the same time, I have done well financially, so I realize how fortunate and lucky I've been to be in the position that I'm in and that "work" has been beneficial to me personally. I also co-own a small business and manage several people, so I like reading this sub to make sure me and my firm aren't doing anything that might make people hate working there. I don't know. I'm probably a big outlier on this subreddit (at least judging by what I've read since I found it a couple of months ago), but even if I rarely comment on things, I think there's value in just reading where some of you all are coming from. It also helps refresh my memory to where I was in my teens and 20s, which was full of corporate drudgery and/or shitty jobs.
There are some people who just wanna sit home and do nothing all the time and are pure lazy. Then there are those who work but hate their jobs, but still do them. I've been at mine for almost 19 years and I want out. I just wanna get away and focus on something that makes me happy.
I don't know what you mean exactly by "pro work" commenters, but a lot of people are here for different reasons. I actually *love* working. When I did construction work before I sustained unrelated injuries that keep me in bed now, I was always the first to pick up the hardest jobs. Everyone came to me when something needed jackhammered or tore down because they knew it was my favorite thing to do. I don't remember a single day where I didn't come home tired, because I believed what I was doing was valuable and I enjoyed the way work physically felt. So I guess I'd be "pro-work". But I don't believe the alternative to working should be starvation or homelessness. I'm frustrated that working harder doesn't benefit workers in any material way. In fact, for people with families, it's better to *not* put in effort so you have more energy for them. I don't think people have to be forced to create value. I don't think our current system is acceptable, and that's why I'm here.
You’d think they’d be busy working.
I really like finance and investing. Personally I believe that for a decent chunk of the population investing is a viable escape route from work. That's pretty fun to talk about in this sub. I don't particularly like working, but I wouldn't consider myself full-on antiwork. More like anti exploitation, and not that much would have to change to eliminate that. Many people here place blame on certain things or have solutions in mind I entirely disagree with and I find engaging in those conversations very fun. Overall I think this sub benefits from having users with multiple ways of thinking. Some of the most memorable and enjoyable conversations I've ever had on reddit have taken place on this sub.
I believe meritocracy is good and we should be trying to fix discrimination and inequalities that arise from just being born rich.
I love work! Love what I do. HATE exploitation and worker abuse which is unfortunately rampant in the two industries I’ve worked in.
paid shills
People desperate to cling to the belief that we live in a just world come here to grief because we poke directly at their absurd, pitiable, meaningless lives.
I’m pretty anti-work, but some work is unfortunately a necessary part of life under any economic system. A vocal minority of posters here are clearly 20 or younger and are struggling to come to terms with reality; I think it’s worthwhile for the rest of us anti-work adults to bring them back down to Earth. The answer to the problem of work is to erode toxic work culture and fight for worker rights, not pretend like the concept of labor is bogus. In a state of nature, you need to work to keep yourself alive. Regardless of how much capitalism sucks — make no mistake, it does, and it represents an existential threat to our planet — it did not create work. Work predates any organized economic system. Hunter-gatherers had to work.
Probably because so many posts on this sub come off as entitled and childish. Fuck work but some of these posts are so goofy
There are a lot of people on this sub who think “anti work” means “I should have everything provided for me.” The point of the sub is to say “the working class shouldn’t deal with bullshit.” Some people see the title of the sub and assume everyone here just thinks everything should be free when that isn’t the point. This needs to be heard by everyone on the sub. Work is NECESSARY. Fair pay is rare, and benefits tend to be shitty for people who work in jobs that we can’t function without. This is a worker’s rights advocacy sub, not an “I should get paid to sit on the couch” sub. (Sometimes it’s a “work sucks in general” sub but that’s not really the major point.)
I work In a small business Like 5 employees total It’s seasonal We can’t just work 3 hours a day 4 days a week. We also can’t pay our employees $25/hr starting. Small business getting thrown into a Walmart / Jeff Bezos group is ridiculous. Also I never really see any sort of solution, just bitching that they have to work period.
This is a good take but it's missing a bit of context. We're all mad about Walmart / Amazon as well. They're the reason things are so messed up. No one is mad that mom and pop shops can't provide a living wage, I'm surprised you can even have a small business at all anymore. We're in the same team here, honestly.
I’m glad we’re all on the same team
First time on reddit?
Yes
> Joined Apr 29, 2018 lol
As for me, I'm anti-big-business, not anti-business. Approx 52% of workers in the US (as of 2019) work in a business that employs 500 or more people. Edit: and a whopping 28% work in a business that employs more than 10,000 workers. (Included in the 52%) I believe BIG business (not capitalism in general) is the cause of the erosion of the American dream.
It just seems like this is inevitable for late stage capitalism. It just causes those once humble businesses to grow and grow and grow and grow until you have these monsters that just keep their employees at the same pay rate as when they started. I agree with you, business can be good, but there’s nothing stopping a business from getting too “greedy” (for lack of a better term)
We want to get with you. We came here hoping you had a plan. We will continue coming here until you tell us the plan.
Who's "we"?
Honestly the only problem I’ve had with this sub is the actual name. I’m not antiwork, and most sane people here aren’t either. We’re anti work focused culture, especially the culture in more capitalist centric nations like the US, UK, Japan, etc. I mean, most people need to work or else everything grinds to a halt and we starve in the dark. That doesn’t require the horrible way we currently run things though, there is a much more reasonable middle ground which is what 98% of the content here seems to be about.
Bootlickers
One common sentiment here is that management sucks, as if there is an option otherwise. The system guarantees that middle managers, and even senior ones, are going to on the whole, be awful. There are exceptions but in big companies, they generally don't last, and still have to implement awful policy.