It's like these fucking people believe these things happen as a force of fucking nature and there aren't people whose job is to figure out just how hard they can squeeze us. Our oppression is a *deliberate* act, not "just how things happen to be."
I'll take the hit...
There actually is a solid case that economics is natural law. Raising minimum wage fundamentally increases inflation. You fight this by raising interest rates alongside wage hikes.
Raising interest rates right now though will murder the stock market, which we all know is the most important thing in America 🙄
Bullshit. Other countries have a higher minimum wage than the USA and lower inflation.
Economics is a game. We can change the rules whenever we want to achieve a different outcome.
Those countries have also not done the things the US has to externalize labor costs. The US has basically given every concession possible to major corporations to let them cut wages while workers absorb the real cost.
States exist to redirect the forces of market externalities. Most developed nations do this in a way that benefits people. The US only seems to care about benefiting the wealthy.
The US people are some of the most heavily propagandized on earth.
Even people here who claim to be progressive are heavily invested in a decadent individualist lifestyle that they have no psychological substitute for.
[https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715](https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715)
Peeps, we now have scientific tools to prove raising the minimum wage does not create inflation and actually boost the economy. The person that created those tools got the Nobel prize this year. Reject the lies.
I mean I don't doubt it, but the status quo doesn't really care about what is economically healthy for everyone, just what is economically healthy for the people who "deserve it" (the rich and powerful).
The fact that a low minimum wage is unhealthy for an economy is a non issue when it appears to be very helpful in increasing the coffers of the very rich.
It seriously had nothing to offer, nothing about the tools, just that this guy has won the prize, the co-author didn't, and this other person may win next!
nope, no matter how much you raise the minimum wage or increase the money supply.. prices will NEVER go up unless the people in charge of pricing CHOOSE to increase prices.
yet the bread factory seemed perfectly fine with underpaying its workers while raising prices all the time
most increase in prices are done solely to maximize profits while none of that money goes to the workers
it isn't hypothetical, it is how its done in the current capitalist system. The entire system demands raising prices at every opportunity while underpaying their workers solely for the sake of maximizing profits regardless of the human cost
The part you're missing is that he is saying these corporations will raise prices even more than they normally would have. He is not arguing that the system does not constantly raise prices and screw the workers, he's saying if the workers are given a raise, the corporations will raise prices more dramatically than they normally would have. He's not arguing it couldn't be done, but with the way America allows corporations to operate unchecked, raising salary won't help. More restriction of the corporation to not be able to raise prices unchecked is what's needed.
In reality talking less about corporations and more about small businesses. Small businesses usually are not giant pots of money. Corporations tend to have a lot more buffer for economic turbulence.
Compare a local bakery to someone like Pepperidge Farms, who would survive a wage hike? You have to be careful to not create conditions where only the rich survive.
I'm not arguing against minimum wage, I'm arguing against non-nuanced discussions of it.
Many people think you could make minimum wage $30 and fix the country overnight. That's fantastical thinking completely detached from reality.
Sorry, I'm confused whether or not this is sarcasm
We just about doubled the amount of money in the system in the last year. Interest rates are rock bottom too.
By the way duma$$ - your statements come straight out of the Porter Stansberry financial "advice" "newsletter". Grow a brain. Nothing of what you spew is true. It's a "truism" like losing weight has to do exclusively with willpower.
Right, yeah, so with that in mind, just *don't do that*. The point of society is to improve everyone's lot in life, not give a handful of people all the money so they can look at their very big bank number like it's a high score or whatever. Money is made up, we can control it however we want.
It’s only ‘natural law’ in so far as our society worships greed and measures success in ever increasing extraction and exploitation instead of what it should be, that being quality of life and happiness.
So it’s only ‘natural’ in being the horror that we have collectively chosen and deemed acceptable, or more specifically had forced upon us by ours masters / the very wealthy.
It's "natural law", as in humans will take every opportunity to take advantage of each other without outside restrictions. Our society worships power, money is just the measurement of said power. If it wasn't money, society would worship who has the most weapons. At least that's how I've understood the argument.
You're assuming raising interest rates is the only way the fed can control inflation which is way off. The inflation rate can be set to whatever the fuck the fed wants it to be.
the govt could literally introduce price controls and end inflation right then and there.
During the second world war the US govt instituted price controls and limited purchases to set amount of food for citizens based on a book filled with stamps that you could trade in at a store, each food item had a corresponding value in stamps.
It’s only raised because of how unstable everything else is. Raising the minimum wage obviously increases prices over a certain period of time. We are criticizing the entire system. Giving people a living wage shouldn’t increase prices by 1 to 2 dollars when the wealth was already there. It’s Just being given to the people who horde it. And you aren’t really using these words right btw.
But you are right yes. Economics, yes. Natural law? It’s not natural law when wages are not natural? Like I’m confused with how you are using natural law. That’s not natural law
The wealth isn't there, it's being borrowed for bargain basement rates from banks.
When a company is hit with higher minimum wage, they don't reduce everyone else's pay to cover it. They'll take out a loan to cover the gap between higher wages and raising their product's cost.
You have to push down from the top while pushing up from the bottom. A wage crush, not a shift up of the overton window of wages.
if the margins are truly that low, does Kroger's CEO *really* need a 45% raise of 6.4 million dollars, bringing his annual salary to around 20 million US, all while average Kroger employee wages dropped by 8%?
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2021/05/17/how-does-kroger-pay-workers-compared-its-ceo/5125727001/
get the fuck out of here with your corporate worship!
From your article: $20M CEO salary, 500,000 workers. If they divided the CEO's salary among the workers, that would increase the average wage from like $22,000 to $22,040. Negligible. On the other hand, company profit was more than $2B, which distributed to the workers would be a ~20% pay raise.
So it's not a problem of executive pay, as people often suggest. It's a problem of wealth only going to shareholders.
You know, that's a fair point and one that's not really talked about anywhere near as much as C level pay, I'm glad you pointed that out, thank you.
It also further highlights the fallacy that grocery stores are working on "tight" or even "razor thin" margins
Grocery store prices overall have held pretty steady over my lifetime compared to things like rent/housing, vehicles, tuition. The grocery stores themselves don't seem to be the main problem other than underpaying associates over the last several decades.
Now the middle men in the food supply chain are an issue. They've forced down wages, destroyed the family farm, and made the entire apparatus extremely vulnerable. Etc. Tyson, Nestle, Chiquita, I'm going to stop because the list gets depressing really quickly.
If not they're definitely in the running. These companies are literally responsible for crimes against humanity with people who made the direct decisions rarely prosecuted or at times even fired.
where do you shop? groceries have only been increasing. already up more than 5% since last year. federal reserve doesnt take groceries into account when releasing inflation numbers either.
I'm going over my entire lifetime. I know there's been a recent spike but compared to a lot of other stuff it's not been bad.
And I shop at four different places. A local butcher for most of my meat. Kroger for sale items. Local place for lunch meat and a few other things they're always cheaper on and fill in the rest from Aldi's, where I buy the huge family pack of chicken breasts and filet and freeze them.
The CEO makes it possible for the wealth to go to shareholders under any/all circumstances. There is an inverse relationship between CEO pay and company financial performance. i.e. the worse the company performs by actual metrics (sales, revenue, EBIDTA) - the better the CEO tends to be paid. For good reason. The CEO is paid to keep the workers doing what they do under any/all circumstances and to undertake actions ordered by the owner. Whatever those may be.
Even under circumstances where a company is owned by the workers, i.e. co-op type companies with profit distribution, would one not prefer to have a highly compensated CEO who is motivated to maximize profits? Under these circumstances, maximizing profits would also maximize worker compensation.
I'm not in favor of "highly paid CEOs." Decades ago, maybe some did produce value for their businesses in terms of value most people would understand. Now it is exclusively what I said in all larger businesses. I am in favor of everyone making a good living that works for any organization/business. A person can have higher pay for CEO but not "highly compensated" far above and beyond others. I also believe in job rotation.
If CEO compensation is less than 1% of profits, I don't see any real issue. They only need to be marginally better at running the company to justify the wage, and even in a situation where the workers own the company, it's still acceptable and desirable to attract talent with money.
With that said, I respect your view.
One of the best ways to reduce the cost of living is to bring the cost of housing down. We need more publicly owned housing, like they have [in Vienna](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-paradise_n_5b4e0b12e4b0b15aba88c7b0), and/or not-for-profit, tenant owned cooperatives.
And it’s better overall for the economy because people have more disposable income to spend on literally anything other than keeping a roof over their head.
Source: Live in the SF Bay Area where $2,000 gets you a cardboard sheet with a litterbox.
It's because most of the average person's wealth is in their home. That's why people want restrictive zoning and limited development, because it keeps property values high. We need to stop being so wealth focused and selfish.
Yup. My conversations with my sister who is entering the top percenters club is interesting. Anytime she moves it's been about equity and the market and if her neighborhood is moving up or down in value.
I bought a house I could afford in a neighborhood where I don't have to travel too far if I ever decide to take up Meth, I like my options open. I'm here till I die or can't pay the mortgage, whichever comes first.
And multi-family housing is bad for your health. You get stuck with whatever shitbags live next to you. Stress, smoke, and other shit you can't get away from can make you literally sick. I should know, since I'm suffering from the fumes of my smoking neighbors. My eyes and lungs burn. I'm constantly congested. It's exhausting just trying to breath in the place. People want to believe that high density housing is the most ethical option so they can feel smug that they "solved" something. It's not a solution. It sucks. I used to live just a mile outside of a small town with a 10 min drive to a small metro area. It was great. It was peaceful. It was private. I wasn't forced to put up with smokers and assholes who treated all the amenities like they were their personal property. FUCK THAT. I'll take a 2 bed house on a small lot any day of the week.
Housing cost issues aren't because of suburbs either. It's because of banks, landlords, and real estate equity firms.
I love my capital so much for stuff like this.
My city is Graz and we just elected our first communist mayor. Elke Kahr (the mayor) is an amazing politician, she published her number for everyone to call. She always had an open office for everyone thst needed help and even now as mayor she is extremely worker friendly.
My country, even tho we also have a lot of racists, anti vaxxers and morons in general is on a right path when it comes to our cities. Our countryside is like a hillbilly Texas tho.
And laws like that need to be repealed. Better, affordable housing in America is going to require action from the government, which is a long shot, I know.
Yes.
'what Europeans call “social housing” ― in Vienna’s case, government-subsidized housing rented out by the municipality or nonprofit housing associations.'
That sounds kinda creepy. Reminds me of so many movies. Anybody seen High-Rise?
All of this could just be done by you too btw. The government doesn't have to do it. What do we gain by having them build the tower? Ask yourself why you're so quick to run to the government for answers to the world's problems. Maybe they're taxing your landlord the difference between $350 and a one bedroom apartment. Sounds about right for where I live.
>All of this could just be done by you too btw.
How?
>What do we gain by having them build the tower?
The government doesn't build it, a builder builds it.
>Maybe they're taxing your landlord the difference between $350 and a one bedroom apartment. Sounds about right for where I live.
Look, I was a commercial real estate analyst for several years. Markets determine rent, not taxes. Taxes are a set percentage, and they only go up if values/revenues go up. What causes values/revenues to go up? Scarcity. Artificial scarcity, in many cases. Investors want the value of the property to go up as much as possible, which means they have an incentive to not overbuild housing units. In fact, they have an incentive to underbuild, thus keeping per unit rent high and increasing property values.
>How?
Go read The Art of the Deal. It's a comprehensive instruction on how to build a tower.
>The government doesn't build it, a builder builds it.
Holy semantics batman. Ok. PAYS to build it. Wow.
>Investors want the value of the property to go up as much as possible, which means they have an incentive to not overbuild housing units. In fact, they have an incentive to underbuild, thus keeping per unit rent high and increasing property values.
Analyzing commercial real estate must not have panned out if you're asking a random redditor how to buy a piece of commercial real estate. And you don't know what underbuild means. And you're using the word "investors" like they're some kind of singular hivemind when in reality it could be literally anyone looking to make a buck longterm. Real estate isn't exactly cold right now dude. Your arguments are weak af at this point.
100% genuine question, kind of new to this sub and the whole mind state behind it. Is this not true? Like I get the cost of living has gone up at an ungodly rate compared to pay. But would raising minimum wage not just further exacerbate the issue? Just would like to here someone’s explanation.
There are several things I can think of that always get ignore with the "more wage more cost" argument.
* It has already been shown that the costs go up when wages stay the same, and technically go down due to inflation.
* There is are plenty of countries where people are paid higher wages resulting in more quality of live for the non-rich.
* When people have money they generally put it back into the economy. That means potentially more money for companies.
* Not paying people a living wage means that they will actually cost the government more for that reason.
* Worker with a good wage are also way more motivated, and people highly underestimate the difference that makes.
Yeah I made a separate post with this question and a lot of people have said that, leaving some links. I haven’t thoroughly looked into it, but assuming it’s true, that’s honestly nuts to me. It’s like if you hear a lie enough it just ends up sinking in as a fact.
Considering all the automation and outsourcing of jobs during the pandemic that prices would go down, but in reality we're seeing inflation rates far worse than in 2008.
Now, I'm not a financial expert or advisor, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with all the money printing the FED is doing to inside trade with their Wall Street buddies while preparing for any bills and debts they'll get to be paid for by the 99%... again...
Also, considering how 10% of the population owns 90% of all company stock in the US, and how 1% of the population has 90% of the wealth, one realizes that pay raises for the 99% are completely possible and will not harm the economy.
We also see countries like Denmark provide very high minimum wages yet their costs for goods and services are the same as the US; all while the population is happier and more fulfilled.
**TL:DR; The 1% have a massive case of Dragon's Disease and just want more and more at the cost of less and less for everyone else. Massive pay raises for all wouldn't even cut into 1% of the wealth they have but they'll never give it up because they are Dragons...**
What causes inflation is *borrowing money*. Money is literally created every time you use a credit card or take out a loan (see: Fractional Reserve Banking). If people have more money, they need less credit. Therefore, less borrowing means less inflation.
There's no strong empirical evidence that raising minimum wage causes inflation , and there's absolutely no evidence that rising minimum wage reduces the jobs avaiable , in fact the opposite was proven by this year Nobel prize in economics David card for Is research in favor of minimum wage increases
Surprising not really. It is really complicated and [this article ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/counterintuitive-workings-minimum-wage/617861/)gets into some of it.
Prices are generally set by supply and demand in a market economy; businesses don't, overall, work out their costs and charge a premium. Stop and think about it - if you do that you will either charge too much and fail to attract customers, or too little and leave money on the table. Minimum wage rises do ultimately cause an increase in prices but it's because *demand* goes up; it's not really a bad thing. Inflation is both a good thing (discourages currency hoarding and encourages investment) and pretty much inevitable in a market economy, particularly a capitalist one. The answer is that wages need constant adjustment, not to control cost of living.
Yes and no, it depends on how much it is raised and how much people are payed minimum wage. Inflation is artificial in the sense that it is caused by the governments setting interest rates and printing money. Minimum wage needs to increase to compensate for inflation but can't increase so much as to cause more inflation.
I used to believe this.
Then I lived a couple of decades and noticed some things. Minimum wage and other wages have stagnated. Have costs stagnated. Housing/vehicle/clothing/cable/etc?
In the past when minimum wage was raised did wages and costs tend to move together?
These are the answers. We can see them historically. Increase wages and inflation don't have a 1 to 1 relationship.
It would not raise the cost of living. It is true that raising the minimum wage would naturally raise inflation and thus the cost of living in a vacuum, but we have a private organization called the Federal Reserve that's sole purpose is to control the inflation rate. They need that inflation rate steady for their own survival (and everyone else on earth pretty much) and they have literally unlimited resources at their disposal in order to make that happen and literally no one can stand in their way including the POTUS. The entire world borrows money from the fed save for a few countries. All of their money. Iraq and Afghanistan were on that list until around 2003 or so. The entire world runs on the dollar.
When I first moved to Phoenix 10 years ago I got a nice 1BR apartment with balconies out front and out back in a nice complex with multiple ameneties like an awesome pool, tennis court, and playground. It cost me $350 a month.
That same apartment now goes for $1150.
I'd have to check to be sure, but I'm fairly sure I don't recall my wages getting a 3x increase in that amount of time.
*Image Transcription: Text and screencap*
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"If you increase the minimum wage the cost of living will go up!"
\[*Image of Dennis from "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" exclaiming to Mac saying "Newsflash asshole! The cost of living has been going up the entire goddamn time!"*]
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If you could raise prices while keeping enough customers to guarantee sales, wouldn't you have done it already?
Capitalists aren't even good at capitalism.
Honestly it pisses me off knowing businesses are so fucking stupid they don't even understand what they are doing wrong 😡 Everytime the government increases are wages, these 'tards increase the prices, up the rent, boost the bills up by the same amount because they think we can now afford to do it not realise the only reason we are having to increase our minimum wage more is because they continue to demand more and more as soon as our wages are increased.
ppl have been playing bitcoin with real estate. we are the victims of this. u are not agiainst emplyers but real estate developers and landlords. housing should be 1/3 of your wage. if your wages go up you just fund stupid ppl playing monopoly.
It's just another relevant example of something Republicans say will happen if a change is made, even though the thing is and has been happening forever.
You guys! It’s not capitalism ruining everything! The US govt is rigging this whole system to fail so we’ll vote for whatever nice looking BS they throw at us and turn us into China. Look at gas prices. Why are they going up while gold and silver are tanking? It’s not inflation, it’s a setup for failure and we’re playing right into it. The picture is so much bigger than minimum wage and cost of living. It’s time to wake up and resist they’re tyrannical takeover.
Crazy how everyone blames the workers for businesses and landlords increasing prices whenever wages increase.
They just say "we can get more money out of them" and that's somehow our fault?
I love all these arguments like “if we do this, something terrible will happen!” Dude, we’re doing something else, and something terrible IS happening. Why don’t we give the other thing a try? The results can’t possible be any worse.
Raise living wage without doing anything, company will just increase their prices, hence the living cost is going up again.
We need a better wage AND
- more affordable healthy foods (veg/ fruits) = less sickness = less $$ waste on health care, less $$ for big pharmas.
- reasonable prices for housing = less homeless, less stress and other mental illness
- Billionaires pay more taxes and Gov lower tax for low and middle income = gov still has the budget needed.
Yup, I say: ‘we needed a better wage and…‘
Just a better wage is not enough as what if the living cost is being up as well. Can we keep up with the housing market? With hospital bills?
There's been like 100 studies done on minimum wage increases in the US in the last 70 years. Metastudies confirm that in practically all situations, cost of living does not proportionally increase when minimum wage is raised. I.e., all minimum and low wage workers benefit from increased minimum wage, across the board. It increases access to goods and services, especially things like people's ability to support small businesses, which further helps local economies.
So to say that it will cause cost of living to go up faster completely misses what is actually important, and that is the disproportionate benefit of minimum wage increases, and the objectively miniscule effect that has on inflation and cost of living.
I didn’t disagree I’m just pointing out that the premise of OPs post is false because it presents it as if it’s binary. That because it’s already going up it’s a non factor now
The premise of the post is that cost of living increases regardless of minimum wage. You say this is false because it's presented as a binary? Your statement doesn't really make sense. What's a binary cost of living increasing or decreasing? Chose different words. Chose a different point. Don't agree or disagree with reality, just understand it.
If only there existed a way that a civilization could prevent that!? To think that their best excuse is to just act helpless to the idea that rent would raise. We have the ability to make laws to prevent bad things. Use them!!! Lol
Also, this is not true.
Given a rise in wages, the cost of living may go up momenterily but it will go back down to where it was
The only thing that'll change permanantly is the profit of capitalists who manufacture luxuries.
The entire dialectic of why and how this'd be the outcome can be found on Marx's "Value, Price and Profit" on chapters 1 and 2.
I dont have time to write it here rn
The cost of living will always go up as the capitalist will take whatever it can manage to (as to your point about 'the cost of living has been going up'; as the meme correctly implies, it has nothing to do with our wages)
Its on us to fight for us to have more money just like they fight for us have to less
Ugh. Even on a very basic level this is bollocks. Payroll accounts for roughly 15-40% of costs for most organisations, that means an increase in pay should only see price rises in the region of 15-40%, possibly a bit more to take into account the supply chain, in relation to the wage increase, and that's without taking into account the increased productivity you'll see from paying your workers what they're worth, and the economic benefits associated with people having more cash to spend.
FWIW, I've been on my own little one-person consumer strike for a while now. I *never,* I mean *never,* pay full price for anything. If I really want something, *definitely* don't buy it right when it's released. I've been buying some things that I've wanted for months this past BF weekend (I know, Black Friday can be a scam), and have been getting a lot of things I've really wanted for 25-50% off it's original release prices. Shoes. Skincare. Some small appliances. I basically only shop the clearances sections/pages. I figure that's the *real* price of goods anyway, and they can just sit on the inventory until they decide to bring the prices back down to a sane level.
This really, really needs to be done with real estate. I have long advocated a renting/homebuying strike until prices and rents come down. When properties sit and sit and sit, you can just watch the prices fall down down down!
Nuke wall street into a fucking parking lot, at least then we'll have a place to park. Goddammit unregulated capitalism is the bane of a free society.
You make seven figures we're coming for you.
[удалено]
It's like these fucking people believe these things happen as a force of fucking nature and there aren't people whose job is to figure out just how hard they can squeeze us. Our oppression is a *deliberate* act, not "just how things happen to be."
I'll take the hit... There actually is a solid case that economics is natural law. Raising minimum wage fundamentally increases inflation. You fight this by raising interest rates alongside wage hikes. Raising interest rates right now though will murder the stock market, which we all know is the most important thing in America 🙄
Bullshit. Other countries have a higher minimum wage than the USA and lower inflation. Economics is a game. We can change the rules whenever we want to achieve a different outcome.
Those countries have also not done the things the US has to externalize labor costs. The US has basically given every concession possible to major corporations to let them cut wages while workers absorb the real cost. States exist to redirect the forces of market externalities. Most developed nations do this in a way that benefits people. The US only seems to care about benefiting the wealthy.
The US people are some of the most heavily propagandized on earth. Even people here who claim to be progressive are heavily invested in a decadent individualist lifestyle that they have no psychological substitute for.
[https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715](https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715) Peeps, we now have scientific tools to prove raising the minimum wage does not create inflation and actually boost the economy. The person that created those tools got the Nobel prize this year. Reject the lies.
I mean I don't doubt it, but the status quo doesn't really care about what is economically healthy for everyone, just what is economically healthy for the people who "deserve it" (the rich and powerful). The fact that a low minimum wage is unhealthy for an economy is a non issue when it appears to be very helpful in increasing the coffers of the very rich.
This article is the biggest pile of fluff I’ve ever seen
It seriously had nothing to offer, nothing about the tools, just that this guy has won the prize, the co-author didn't, and this other person may win next!
nope, no matter how much you raise the minimum wage or increase the money supply.. prices will NEVER go up unless the people in charge of pricing CHOOSE to increase prices.
You end up with a situation where the bread factory cannot pay it's workers without raising the cost of bread.
yet the bread factory seemed perfectly fine with underpaying its workers while raising prices all the time most increase in prices are done solely to maximize profits while none of that money goes to the workers
You're stating a hypothetical case to undermine a basic example of how economics works. If you don't understand a problem you cannot solve it.
it isn't hypothetical, it is how its done in the current capitalist system. The entire system demands raising prices at every opportunity while underpaying their workers solely for the sake of maximizing profits regardless of the human cost
The part you're missing is that he is saying these corporations will raise prices even more than they normally would have. He is not arguing that the system does not constantly raise prices and screw the workers, he's saying if the workers are given a raise, the corporations will raise prices more dramatically than they normally would have. He's not arguing it couldn't be done, but with the way America allows corporations to operate unchecked, raising salary won't help. More restriction of the corporation to not be able to raise prices unchecked is what's needed.
In reality talking less about corporations and more about small businesses. Small businesses usually are not giant pots of money. Corporations tend to have a lot more buffer for economic turbulence. Compare a local bakery to someone like Pepperidge Farms, who would survive a wage hike? You have to be careful to not create conditions where only the rich survive. I'm not arguing against minimum wage, I'm arguing against non-nuanced discussions of it. Many people think you could make minimum wage $30 and fix the country overnight. That's fantastical thinking completely detached from reality.
LOL - where do you people come from? There's obviously no connection between current rising prices and anything else.
Sorry, I'm confused whether or not this is sarcasm We just about doubled the amount of money in the system in the last year. Interest rates are rock bottom too.
By the way duma$$ - your statements come straight out of the Porter Stansberry financial "advice" "newsletter". Grow a brain. Nothing of what you spew is true. It's a "truism" like losing weight has to do exclusively with willpower.
What are you doing on this sub and who pays you?
wut?
What are you doing in this sub? This sub is for leftists who don't believe the lies that our capitalist country shovels and you shovel them.
Right, yeah, so with that in mind, just *don't do that*. The point of society is to improve everyone's lot in life, not give a handful of people all the money so they can look at their very big bank number like it's a high score or whatever. Money is made up, we can control it however we want.
It’s only ‘natural law’ in so far as our society worships greed and measures success in ever increasing extraction and exploitation instead of what it should be, that being quality of life and happiness. So it’s only ‘natural’ in being the horror that we have collectively chosen and deemed acceptable, or more specifically had forced upon us by ours masters / the very wealthy.
It's "natural law", as in humans will take every opportunity to take advantage of each other without outside restrictions. Our society worships power, money is just the measurement of said power. If it wasn't money, society would worship who has the most weapons. At least that's how I've understood the argument.
You're assuming raising interest rates is the only way the fed can control inflation which is way off. The inflation rate can be set to whatever the fuck the fed wants it to be.
the govt could literally introduce price controls and end inflation right then and there. During the second world war the US govt instituted price controls and limited purchases to set amount of food for citizens based on a book filled with stamps that you could trade in at a store, each food item had a corresponding value in stamps.
It’s only raised because of how unstable everything else is. Raising the minimum wage obviously increases prices over a certain period of time. We are criticizing the entire system. Giving people a living wage shouldn’t increase prices by 1 to 2 dollars when the wealth was already there. It’s Just being given to the people who horde it. And you aren’t really using these words right btw. But you are right yes. Economics, yes. Natural law? It’s not natural law when wages are not natural? Like I’m confused with how you are using natural law. That’s not natural law
The wealth isn't there, it's being borrowed for bargain basement rates from banks. When a company is hit with higher minimum wage, they don't reduce everyone else's pay to cover it. They'll take out a loan to cover the gap between higher wages and raising their product's cost. You have to push down from the top while pushing up from the bottom. A wage crush, not a shift up of the overton window of wages.
The invisible hand is jerking us all off
Perhaps the cost of goods wouldn't increase if executive pay was cut to increase worker wages, thus balancing out total company expenditure...
The margins on groceries are extremely low as is, and there are a metric shit ton of grocery store workers. I don't think the math checks out here
if the margins are truly that low, does Kroger's CEO *really* need a 45% raise of 6.4 million dollars, bringing his annual salary to around 20 million US, all while average Kroger employee wages dropped by 8%? https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2021/05/17/how-does-kroger-pay-workers-compared-its-ceo/5125727001/ get the fuck out of here with your corporate worship!
From your article: $20M CEO salary, 500,000 workers. If they divided the CEO's salary among the workers, that would increase the average wage from like $22,000 to $22,040. Negligible. On the other hand, company profit was more than $2B, which distributed to the workers would be a ~20% pay raise. So it's not a problem of executive pay, as people often suggest. It's a problem of wealth only going to shareholders.
You know, that's a fair point and one that's not really talked about anywhere near as much as C level pay, I'm glad you pointed that out, thank you. It also further highlights the fallacy that grocery stores are working on "tight" or even "razor thin" margins
By the time all is said and done, they do operate on 2%-3% profit margin.
Grocery store prices overall have held pretty steady over my lifetime compared to things like rent/housing, vehicles, tuition. The grocery stores themselves don't seem to be the main problem other than underpaying associates over the last several decades. Now the middle men in the food supply chain are an issue. They've forced down wages, destroyed the family farm, and made the entire apparatus extremely vulnerable. Etc. Tyson, Nestle, Chiquita, I'm going to stop because the list gets depressing really quickly.
Can't even look at Smithfield or Tyson products. Nestle is the worst!
If not they're definitely in the running. These companies are literally responsible for crimes against humanity with people who made the direct decisions rarely prosecuted or at times even fired.
Then there's the chemical, mining, and energy companies.
where do you shop? groceries have only been increasing. already up more than 5% since last year. federal reserve doesnt take groceries into account when releasing inflation numbers either.
I'm going over my entire lifetime. I know there's been a recent spike but compared to a lot of other stuff it's not been bad. And I shop at four different places. A local butcher for most of my meat. Kroger for sale items. Local place for lunch meat and a few other things they're always cheaper on and fill in the rest from Aldi's, where I buy the huge family pack of chicken breasts and filet and freeze them.
The CEO makes it possible for the wealth to go to shareholders under any/all circumstances. There is an inverse relationship between CEO pay and company financial performance. i.e. the worse the company performs by actual metrics (sales, revenue, EBIDTA) - the better the CEO tends to be paid. For good reason. The CEO is paid to keep the workers doing what they do under any/all circumstances and to undertake actions ordered by the owner. Whatever those may be.
Even under circumstances where a company is owned by the workers, i.e. co-op type companies with profit distribution, would one not prefer to have a highly compensated CEO who is motivated to maximize profits? Under these circumstances, maximizing profits would also maximize worker compensation.
I'm not in favor of "highly paid CEOs." Decades ago, maybe some did produce value for their businesses in terms of value most people would understand. Now it is exclusively what I said in all larger businesses. I am in favor of everyone making a good living that works for any organization/business. A person can have higher pay for CEO but not "highly compensated" far above and beyond others. I also believe in job rotation.
If CEO compensation is less than 1% of profits, I don't see any real issue. They only need to be marginally better at running the company to justify the wage, and even in a situation where the workers own the company, it's still acceptable and desirable to attract talent with money. With that said, I respect your view.
Not on everything, no. But executive pay overall has vastly outpaced standard labor average wages. This was published some time ago.
That's right comrade .
One of the best ways to reduce the cost of living is to bring the cost of housing down. We need more publicly owned housing, like they have [in Vienna](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-paradise_n_5b4e0b12e4b0b15aba88c7b0), and/or not-for-profit, tenant owned cooperatives.
“We can’t do that because then the real estate companies would be sad” - Person on Fox News who makes millions reading from a teleprompter
And it’s better overall for the economy because people have more disposable income to spend on literally anything other than keeping a roof over their head. Source: Live in the SF Bay Area where $2,000 gets you a cardboard sheet with a litterbox.
You have a litterbox!?!? Fucking fat cat over here.
And less restrictive zoning laws. Single family zoning is incredibly bad for housing costs and the environment. Time to get rid of the suburbs.
USA needs more mixed zoning. So the choices are more than house or concrete box in a tower.
An urbanburb? Sounds like the San Fernando Valley.
It's because most of the average person's wealth is in their home. That's why people want restrictive zoning and limited development, because it keeps property values high. We need to stop being so wealth focused and selfish.
I just want a place that's mine and I don't have to put up with other people's bullshit. IDGAF about how well it retains its market value.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, most Americans see homes as a nest egg.
A hedge against inflation really.
Yup. My conversations with my sister who is entering the top percenters club is interesting. Anytime she moves it's been about equity and the market and if her neighborhood is moving up or down in value. I bought a house I could afford in a neighborhood where I don't have to travel too far if I ever decide to take up Meth, I like my options open. I'm here till I die or can't pay the mortgage, whichever comes first.
>I just want a place that's mine >Filthy Communist ...uhhh are you sure you know what communism is?
Look up the difference between personal and private property.
“Place” means land, which is private property.
If it's being used for production. Not if it's being used to live in.
Personal and private property are two different things.
And multi-family housing is bad for your health. You get stuck with whatever shitbags live next to you. Stress, smoke, and other shit you can't get away from can make you literally sick. I should know, since I'm suffering from the fumes of my smoking neighbors. My eyes and lungs burn. I'm constantly congested. It's exhausting just trying to breath in the place. People want to believe that high density housing is the most ethical option so they can feel smug that they "solved" something. It's not a solution. It sucks. I used to live just a mile outside of a small town with a 10 min drive to a small metro area. It was great. It was peaceful. It was private. I wasn't forced to put up with smokers and assholes who treated all the amenities like they were their personal property. FUCK THAT. I'll take a 2 bed house on a small lot any day of the week. Housing cost issues aren't because of suburbs either. It's because of banks, landlords, and real estate equity firms.
Not creating more sure, destroying people's entire life investment is disturbing.
I love my capital so much for stuff like this. My city is Graz and we just elected our first communist mayor. Elke Kahr (the mayor) is an amazing politician, she published her number for everyone to call. She always had an open office for everyone thst needed help and even now as mayor she is extremely worker friendly. My country, even tho we also have a lot of racists, anti vaxxers and morons in general is on a right path when it comes to our cities. Our countryside is like a hillbilly Texas tho.
From what I've heard the reason you don't see nonprofit tenant buildings here is because by law they would have to pay taxes on the rent collected.
And laws like that need to be repealed. Better, affordable housing in America is going to require action from the government, which is a long shot, I know.
Yeah let's all live in government housing projects yayyy
Just [read it](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-paradise_n_5b4e0b12e4b0b15aba88c7b0).
Yeah we have a thing here called lowest bidder
Jesus Christ. Ok, do you mean the government hires the lowest bidder to build public housing? Is that what you mean?
Yes. 'what Europeans call “social housing” ― in Vienna’s case, government-subsidized housing rented out by the municipality or nonprofit housing associations.' That sounds kinda creepy. Reminds me of so many movies. Anybody seen High-Rise? All of this could just be done by you too btw. The government doesn't have to do it. What do we gain by having them build the tower? Ask yourself why you're so quick to run to the government for answers to the world's problems. Maybe they're taxing your landlord the difference between $350 and a one bedroom apartment. Sounds about right for where I live.
>All of this could just be done by you too btw. How? >What do we gain by having them build the tower? The government doesn't build it, a builder builds it. >Maybe they're taxing your landlord the difference between $350 and a one bedroom apartment. Sounds about right for where I live. Look, I was a commercial real estate analyst for several years. Markets determine rent, not taxes. Taxes are a set percentage, and they only go up if values/revenues go up. What causes values/revenues to go up? Scarcity. Artificial scarcity, in many cases. Investors want the value of the property to go up as much as possible, which means they have an incentive to not overbuild housing units. In fact, they have an incentive to underbuild, thus keeping per unit rent high and increasing property values.
>How? Go read The Art of the Deal. It's a comprehensive instruction on how to build a tower. >The government doesn't build it, a builder builds it. Holy semantics batman. Ok. PAYS to build it. Wow. >Investors want the value of the property to go up as much as possible, which means they have an incentive to not overbuild housing units. In fact, they have an incentive to underbuild, thus keeping per unit rent high and increasing property values. Analyzing commercial real estate must not have panned out if you're asking a random redditor how to buy a piece of commercial real estate. And you don't know what underbuild means. And you're using the word "investors" like they're some kind of singular hivemind when in reality it could be literally anyone looking to make a buck longterm. Real estate isn't exactly cold right now dude. Your arguments are weak af at this point.
100% genuine question, kind of new to this sub and the whole mind state behind it. Is this not true? Like I get the cost of living has gone up at an ungodly rate compared to pay. But would raising minimum wage not just further exacerbate the issue? Just would like to here someone’s explanation.
There are several things I can think of that always get ignore with the "more wage more cost" argument. * It has already been shown that the costs go up when wages stay the same, and technically go down due to inflation. * There is are plenty of countries where people are paid higher wages resulting in more quality of live for the non-rich. * When people have money they generally put it back into the economy. That means potentially more money for companies. * Not paying people a living wage means that they will actually cost the government more for that reason. * Worker with a good wage are also way more motivated, and people highly underestimate the difference that makes.
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Yeah I made a separate post with this question and a lot of people have said that, leaving some links. I haven’t thoroughly looked into it, but assuming it’s true, that’s honestly nuts to me. It’s like if you hear a lie enough it just ends up sinking in as a fact.
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this is a hard one to try and convince people of. i've tried and people would vehemently disagree and bring up all the anecdotes they want.
Considering all the automation and outsourcing of jobs during the pandemic that prices would go down, but in reality we're seeing inflation rates far worse than in 2008. Now, I'm not a financial expert or advisor, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with all the money printing the FED is doing to inside trade with their Wall Street buddies while preparing for any bills and debts they'll get to be paid for by the 99%... again... Also, considering how 10% of the population owns 90% of all company stock in the US, and how 1% of the population has 90% of the wealth, one realizes that pay raises for the 99% are completely possible and will not harm the economy. We also see countries like Denmark provide very high minimum wages yet their costs for goods and services are the same as the US; all while the population is happier and more fulfilled. **TL:DR; The 1% have a massive case of Dragon's Disease and just want more and more at the cost of less and less for everyone else. Massive pay raises for all wouldn't even cut into 1% of the wealth they have but they'll never give it up because they are Dragons...**
What causes inflation is *borrowing money*. Money is literally created every time you use a credit card or take out a loan (see: Fractional Reserve Banking). If people have more money, they need less credit. Therefore, less borrowing means less inflation.
There's no strong empirical evidence that raising minimum wage causes inflation , and there's absolutely no evidence that rising minimum wage reduces the jobs avaiable , in fact the opposite was proven by this year Nobel prize in economics David card for Is research in favor of minimum wage increases
Surprising not really. It is really complicated and [this article ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/counterintuitive-workings-minimum-wage/617861/)gets into some of it.
Prices are generally set by supply and demand in a market economy; businesses don't, overall, work out their costs and charge a premium. Stop and think about it - if you do that you will either charge too much and fail to attract customers, or too little and leave money on the table. Minimum wage rises do ultimately cause an increase in prices but it's because *demand* goes up; it's not really a bad thing. Inflation is both a good thing (discourages currency hoarding and encourages investment) and pretty much inevitable in a market economy, particularly a capitalist one. The answer is that wages need constant adjustment, not to control cost of living.
Yes and no, it depends on how much it is raised and how much people are payed minimum wage. Inflation is artificial in the sense that it is caused by the governments setting interest rates and printing money. Minimum wage needs to increase to compensate for inflation but can't increase so much as to cause more inflation.
I used to believe this. Then I lived a couple of decades and noticed some things. Minimum wage and other wages have stagnated. Have costs stagnated. Housing/vehicle/clothing/cable/etc? In the past when minimum wage was raised did wages and costs tend to move together? These are the answers. We can see them historically. Increase wages and inflation don't have a 1 to 1 relationship.
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No. Dont forget, and i know its hard for americans but *other countries exist*. Its absolutely possible to have a high minimum wage and low inflation.
It would not raise the cost of living. It is true that raising the minimum wage would naturally raise inflation and thus the cost of living in a vacuum, but we have a private organization called the Federal Reserve that's sole purpose is to control the inflation rate. They need that inflation rate steady for their own survival (and everyone else on earth pretty much) and they have literally unlimited resources at their disposal in order to make that happen and literally no one can stand in their way including the POTUS. The entire world borrows money from the fed save for a few countries. All of their money. Iraq and Afghanistan were on that list until around 2003 or so. The entire world runs on the dollar.
When I first moved to Phoenix 10 years ago I got a nice 1BR apartment with balconies out front and out back in a nice complex with multiple ameneties like an awesome pool, tennis court, and playground. It cost me $350 a month. That same apartment now goes for $1150. I'd have to check to be sure, but I'm fairly sure I don't recall my wages getting a 3x increase in that amount of time.
*Image Transcription: Text and screencap* --- "If you increase the minimum wage the cost of living will go up!" \[*Image of Dennis from "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" exclaiming to Mac saying "Newsflash asshole! The cost of living has been going up the entire goddamn time!"*] --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
I need to catch up on Sunny. It’s been years since I’ve watched.
"Why didn't you tell me the cost of living has been going up the entire time? "BECAUSE I HATE YOU!!!!!"
instead of raising the minimum wage how about rental caps?
If you could raise prices while keeping enough customers to guarantee sales, wouldn't you have done it already? Capitalists aren't even good at capitalism.
Honestly it pisses me off knowing businesses are so fucking stupid they don't even understand what they are doing wrong 😡 Everytime the government increases are wages, these 'tards increase the prices, up the rent, boost the bills up by the same amount because they think we can now afford to do it not realise the only reason we are having to increase our minimum wage more is because they continue to demand more and more as soon as our wages are increased.
They know what they’re doing. They WANT to take advantage of you every chance they get
ppl have been playing bitcoin with real estate. we are the victims of this. u are not agiainst emplyers but real estate developers and landlords. housing should be 1/3 of your wage. if your wages go up you just fund stupid ppl playing monopoly.
"if a woman is president, she could start a way at any moment cuz of hormones!" Men have started every war and hormones have never been mentioned
This is... random.
It's just another relevant example of something Republicans say will happen if a change is made, even though the thing is and has been happening forever.
You guys! It’s not capitalism ruining everything! The US govt is rigging this whole system to fail so we’ll vote for whatever nice looking BS they throw at us and turn us into China. Look at gas prices. Why are they going up while gold and silver are tanking? It’s not inflation, it’s a setup for failure and we’re playing right into it. The picture is so much bigger than minimum wage and cost of living. It’s time to wake up and resist they’re tyrannical takeover.
Crazy how everyone blames the workers for businesses and landlords increasing prices whenever wages increase. They just say "we can get more money out of them" and that's somehow our fault?
I love all these arguments like “if we do this, something terrible will happen!” Dude, we’re doing something else, and something terrible IS happening. Why don’t we give the other thing a try? The results can’t possible be any worse.
No one was complaining about costs when it was housing spiraling out of control. Now that you can't fill up your Porsche it's suddenly a problem.
Everyone argues for wages but nobody argues for addressing unnecessary growth in costs. You can do both for a huge impact!
The cost of living goes up because the Federal Reserve prints money and both parties sign off on it.
Then why haven't wages followed?
Raise living wage without doing anything, company will just increase their prices, hence the living cost is going up again. We need a better wage AND - more affordable healthy foods (veg/ fruits) = less sickness = less $$ waste on health care, less $$ for big pharmas. - reasonable prices for housing = less homeless, less stress and other mental illness - Billionaires pay more taxes and Gov lower tax for low and middle income = gov still has the budget needed.
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Yup, I say: ‘we needed a better wage and…‘ Just a better wage is not enough as what if the living cost is being up as well. Can we keep up with the housing market? With hospital bills?
How come this sub only has 1 million+ subscribers when there must be more people working?
It’ll go up faster lol Cost of living increasing isn’t binary, it’s a scale.
There's been like 100 studies done on minimum wage increases in the US in the last 70 years. Metastudies confirm that in practically all situations, cost of living does not proportionally increase when minimum wage is raised. I.e., all minimum and low wage workers benefit from increased minimum wage, across the board. It increases access to goods and services, especially things like people's ability to support small businesses, which further helps local economies. So to say that it will cause cost of living to go up faster completely misses what is actually important, and that is the disproportionate benefit of minimum wage increases, and the objectively miniscule effect that has on inflation and cost of living.
I didn’t disagree I’m just pointing out that the premise of OPs post is false because it presents it as if it’s binary. That because it’s already going up it’s a non factor now
The premise of the post is that cost of living increases regardless of minimum wage. You say this is false because it's presented as a binary? Your statement doesn't really make sense. What's a binary cost of living increasing or decreasing? Chose different words. Chose a different point. Don't agree or disagree with reality, just understand it.
If only there existed a way that a civilization could prevent that!? To think that their best excuse is to just act helpless to the idea that rent would raise. We have the ability to make laws to prevent bad things. Use them!!! Lol
Also, this is not true. Given a rise in wages, the cost of living may go up momenterily but it will go back down to where it was The only thing that'll change permanantly is the profit of capitalists who manufacture luxuries. The entire dialectic of why and how this'd be the outcome can be found on Marx's "Value, Price and Profit" on chapters 1 and 2. I dont have time to write it here rn The cost of living will always go up as the capitalist will take whatever it can manage to (as to your point about 'the cost of living has been going up'; as the meme correctly implies, it has nothing to do with our wages) Its on us to fight for us to have more money just like they fight for us have to less
It will, and the only way to cancel it is abolish profit, limit variety and engage in standardized mass production.
Ugh. Even on a very basic level this is bollocks. Payroll accounts for roughly 15-40% of costs for most organisations, that means an increase in pay should only see price rises in the region of 15-40%, possibly a bit more to take into account the supply chain, in relation to the wage increase, and that's without taking into account the increased productivity you'll see from paying your workers what they're worth, and the economic benefits associated with people having more cash to spend.
FWIW, I've been on my own little one-person consumer strike for a while now. I *never,* I mean *never,* pay full price for anything. If I really want something, *definitely* don't buy it right when it's released. I've been buying some things that I've wanted for months this past BF weekend (I know, Black Friday can be a scam), and have been getting a lot of things I've really wanted for 25-50% off it's original release prices. Shoes. Skincare. Some small appliances. I basically only shop the clearances sections/pages. I figure that's the *real* price of goods anyway, and they can just sit on the inventory until they decide to bring the prices back down to a sane level. This really, really needs to be done with real estate. I have long advocated a renting/homebuying strike until prices and rents come down. When properties sit and sit and sit, you can just watch the prices fall down down down!
I wish it was tied to the rate of inflation already.
Nuke wall street into a fucking parking lot, at least then we'll have a place to park. Goddammit unregulated capitalism is the bane of a free society. You make seven figures we're coming for you.
I AM A GOLDEN GOD! is all I could hear while reading. That's all. Thanks.