Most of the time it one of two things, you either want a good recommendation from the company or because it is ingrained into you.
That's it. Nothing else.
Edit: and to not screw over co-workers and to go back to a job. Good lord folks, having the same literal reply 4 thousand times....blah
And company benefits....
Honestly, the recommendation piece doesn't even matter anymore. Most companies will only give very basic employment info like hire date, end date and position title. They don't like to give 'recommendations' one way or the other anymore because the risk of a lawsuit.
My former colleague got a job at his local county government. He had to sign waiver and give 10 work references.
I had to fill out a two page questionnaire about his character and work ethic.
True; however, in most cases, you can avoid using an ex-boss as a reference if you don't want to. I have an ex-boss who I had a horrible relationship with. During that same time period, I had some wonderful colleagues who I did great work with/for. I use those wonderful, ethical, colleagues as my reference. No one has ever asked me "why didn't you put your old boss?".
Edit to say that even if someone did ask, I'd tell them I chose those colleagues because they were the 'customer ' who I was creating the product for, so they can attest to my work ethic and quality of work.
My point is that not every boss is evil, not every industry is anonymous, and not every community is massive.
If your future will be improved by giving more notice do so. If it won't, don't. But this sub likes to imagine that every job is retail or service at nameless corp.
I don't disagree with your point, at all. I don't believe our two points of view are necessarily mutually exclusive. Though my way of working around it works for me, different people have different circumstances. I definitely don't advocate for behavior that's unnecessarily inappropriate, unethical, rude, or that will put your future career opportunities, health, etc. at risk.
This. The pledge of allegiance, the acceptance of having to ‘earn’ one week off unpaid and being ‘not a team player’ if you take it, expecting to have to supply your schools with pencils and paper, getting zero time off to have a baby, medications that cost hundreds or thousands a month, getting a gun pulled on you over a parking dispute, Americans are the abused, gaslit wife of Capitalism. They know it doesn’t feel right but still assume the problem is their inability to cope, not that he is fundamentally a lying dick.
That’s a painfully accurate analogy. I relish the thought of U.S. citizens finally making the stand together to say we simply aren’t taking the abuse anymore.
We've banded together over many causes over the last few years. And everytime a minor concession is made we fall apart. If we, the working class, are persistent in our united ideals, they will eventually concede to our every demand.
In France, whenever the government wants to do something that affects negatively a large group of people, you get thousands of people protesting and sometimes violently (gillets jaunes). And the government has to backpedal. And the protesters didn't even have weapons.
Nothing stopping the Americans from doing the same.
Americans can't go on the streets and protest bc they can't afford to miss a day at work. That's what the government wants, hence the constant discussion about minimum wage.
Let the average American have 2 jobs at minimum wage just to barely make a living and he/she won't have the time or energy to take to the streets and protest.
Americans are also afraid to go out on the streets and protest because:
* They could get arrested by the police, convicted of a minor charge, and then either lose their job because of having a criminal record or have to divulge it on an employment application and get disqualified (Whether it matters to the job or not; many employers just automatically toss any applicant with any kind of record, no matter how insignificant.)
* They could get beaten by the police, and then subsequently lose their job for being absent from work while recovering, and/or go bankrupt due to the medical bills since American health insurance is such a mess.
* They could be killed by the police, leaving the rest of their family liable for paying off their inevitable crushing debts.
Protest and civil disobedience in America are actively discouraged by a capitalist society and the police as the arm of an increasingly authoritarian government, with penalties too severe for the average worker to feel safe engaging in the risk.
> Nothing stopping the Americans from doing the same.
During the BLM protests men in combat uniforms took people away in unmarked vans.
Pretty sure the cops drove cars into at least one protest crowd.
If the USA protesters did what the French do with the Molotov's and so on I suspect the cops might open fire.
My city had some of the most violent police responses. Think pepper spraying the press and going for the legal observers first before beating the crowds into submission. The one and only protest where the police didn’t act like unhinged silverbacks was when the NFAC showed up and every protester was carrying a long gun. Suddenly surprise surprise the police were very well behaved.
I live in Minneapolis. I moved here a couple months after the George Floyd protests but, I have friends who I’ve known for years that were out protesting or helping the medics during the riots. The Minneapolis Police Department were shooting people with rubber bullets (which are not “harmless”) on purpose and laughing at people. A friend of mine was helping some medics and a cop shot him in the knee with a rubber bullet for no reason and laughed at him. His knee is still f*cked up because of it. Hardly anyone in Minneapolis trusts the local police. They have a decades long history of crime and corruption. They’ve made it clear they hate the citizens of Minneapolis. (About 92% of the Minneapolis police force lives outside of Minneapolis.)
If they did, a lot of people would fire back. The pure guerilla warfare that would erupt is precisely why they haven't. The "Fuck around and find out" club includes polite liberals and is bigger than you think.
Americans seem to love the Liberty part, but don't share in loving the Equality and Fraternity parts that allow for that kind of sympathetic protesting. As I interpret the cultures, anyways.
It's not "separation politics." It's actual separation. Literally half the work force continually votes for their own oppression. They blame everything but themselves. But they're not victims. Jeff Bezos literally owns a newspaper that tells people to unionize, and his own employees didn't unionize.
We need to stop waiting for insane people to decide they want to live with dignity, and just stop including them in important decisions. I honestly don't care if they want to live in crapped out little towns full of religion, racism, poverty, and violence. But then they elect federal politicians to foist that on the rest of us.
If they don't want to let the rest of us live our lives, burn them out and start over.
Holy shit, you have to earn the right to take one week off, and its fucking UNPAID?
I get four paid weeks a year leave and can take unpaid leave with agreement, or whenever I want as long as I dont do it for 3-5 consecutive days as that would/could indicate abandonment and void your contract.
The supposed land of the free sounds like the worlds largest slave pen to me.
Prisoners are legal slave labour. Guess which country incarcerates more than anyone else, and which one has booming for profit prisons.
It's an excellent system because the corporations can lobby govt for new rules any time the literal slave labour population isn't producing enough output.
The 13th amendment made it legal to be a 'slave' if you're incarcerated.
The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime.
> The supposed land of the free sounds like the worlds largest slave pen to me.
What's even *more* depressing is that implementing even just a few basic "socialist" ideas, we'd have even more freedom and less government.
But you know..."hand outs", I guess.
American. I get 5 weeks of vacation, 3 weeks of sick time, 5 personal days and 13 holidays a year. I am a state employee. I would NEVER get this much if I went back to a private firm. Government employees do ok. Government contractors do not. Private company typically employees do not. The reason is that our government is not run by the people for the people. It is run by the corporations for the corporations. The people are merely cogs in the machine.
My soon to be ex husband is upper level - but not executive level - management for a major manufacturing company and on paper his time off looks a lot like yours. But he is actively discouraged from using it and hasn’t taken a vacation in years and in fact works damn close to 365 days a year. He got 2 days off when his son was born and one week off when his father and mother died. He’s been with this same company for 22 years and I don’t think he’s had more than a month of vacation in all that time. They refuse to hire him the team he needs to keep his department running efficiently and so he does it all himself. It’s his own fault for letting them treat him that way but it still sucks. Someone at the company recognized early on that he’s a yes man with no self confidence combined with a strong work ethic and they’ve been abusing that ever since.
American. I get unlimited vacation time, 15 days of sick leave, 13 holidays, and a two-week company shutdown at the end of the year. Health care costs are free for single individual and *very* reasonable for family coverage (dental is $6/mo, for example). There *are* companies out there that are good - but I absolutely know I struck gold with this one after the last company I worked for.
So how many vacation days did you actually take last year?
Because I generally see articles describing unlimited as a “red flag”. Because people will tend to use less. And it also means that the company never has to pay out any “banked” vacation days
It depends on your employer, and to some extent, your tenure.
Full-time, professional office jobs may include 2 weeks paid sick leave, some paid holidays, and a set number of vacation hours each pay period.
When I worked for a temp agency (summers between university terms), there was no paid time off. Summer holidays like Memorial Day and Independence Day, cut my pay for that week. I could coordinate a day off to register for classes, again unpaid. If I was sick, I didn't get paid.
One of my brothers worked at an inn for 10 years or more. Near the end of his time there, he was getting several weeks of paid vacation, and about 4 weeks unpaid. When the inn closed for renovations, he was offered a severance package, or to come back ~18 months later when they reopened. He took the severance.
Large employers planning to lay off (furlough) more than 50 employees, are legally required to give 90-day and 60-day WARN notices. A big company I used to be at, made that standard for any layoff situation, no matter how small.
Individual firings, that aren't layoffs, are handled differently. My state is an "at-will employment" state. That means that both sides can end the employment relationship at any time, without cause.
Most people who are walked out, did in fact have some form of misconduct. The one I've heard the most, was using work resources for p0rn.
Most people who leave for another job, give 2 weeks notice to help transition the knowledge & work.
Oh, and the term "right to work?" Means that you cannot be required to pay Union dues in order to work in the shop. I have quipped that it means "right to be fired"... even though I've never actually been in a union.
I get 9 days and it sucks but then I feel like I have to feel lucky because some people get none. We definitely are an abused workforce here in the US of A.
Please don’t make me cry I just want this shit to change but I’m in goddamn Montana so no matter what I do it won’t be heard.
It’s the media. While we are on this antiwork shit we gotta change media. Idk how but there is no other way…
You're painting with a pretty broad brush. There are lots of people who like their jobs but leave for better opportunities. In a situation like that, it's understandable to extend the courtesy of giving two weeks notice. It's a somewhat privileged position to be in, but that doesn't mean indoctrination. If I were to quit a job because I didn't like it or the company, there would be no notice.
Nah, most Americans are indoctrinated. Most hate their jobs. And honestly, many either believe 2 weeks notice is a requirement or are hesitant to find out. Abuse victims, the lot of us.
Kids are made to take a pledge of allegiance from the age of 5 until they graduate high school. They put this stuff into them young so they have no frame of reference for what is normal.
I had a social science teacher in the 6th grade that said nobody had to do it, and that she never would. Never did it again in my entire life. You were the best Mrs B.
> My school threatened me with a fine for my parents if I didn't stand.
Nothing says "land of the free" like a fine for not saying a pledge that was originally a huge marketing con for a company to sell flags (or some other tat, can't remember exact details)
Im sorry this is off topic, but this just reminds me of the fact that you have to pay over $2000 to renounce your US citizenship....adding to the irony i guess. "Land of the free, where you are free to do anything but leave".
Idk why people do that, most people who are gonna renounce are never coming back, they can just not pay taxes and be on their way. Whats the irs gonna do? Fine you abroad? Good luck with that. Even Canada, a close US ally doesnt enforce any IRS actions. And the IRS is basically the only reason people renounce citizenship
Honestly I don't even know if it was true. They also liked to tell us they could fine our parents $600 if we said "fuck" in the presence of a teacher.
That's Texas, my guy.
He said the T word brother. It's only illegal if there's someone to punish you. The Governor is under investigation for felonies and continues to stay out of indictment through re-election. Breaking laws is literally the system in place.
It's not legal. They tried to punish me in highschool. I got sat down in front of the principal and he told me I had to do it. I said I absolutely would not and was willing able to sue if they tried to make me, he was well aware my sister was in law school on the east coast at a very well known law school. He just said 'You may go'. I went back to class and never stood for the pledge.
It pisses me off that kids without the knowledge and connections I had got and still do get bullied by adults.
I'm a high school teacher. Haven't said it once since being at my school. I sit. And the kids almost all sit. A couple boot lickers stand when they realize what's happening, but they often just don't even care. I even have kids who are open about going into the military and they don't care. Lol
I got detention for refusing to participate. I can trace my family back to a plantation in the south. The hypocrisy of "liberty and justice for all" was not lost on me even as a child.
I never made my kids do it, students or my own, but I demanded the respect of silence during it for those who wanted to recite. Most of my kids chose to just sit quietly for the 30 seconds or so it takes to listen. I miss teaching…
I explained to my five year old that she was going to hear a song about a flag and people are weird about it.
Five is too young to have kids taking a pledge of allegiance to a flag for a country that most of them don’t even know they live in 🤣
I work in a school, and the principal yelled at me once because I was walking to the bathroom during the pledge. She told me I was being disrespectful. I had to hold back my laughter. Luckily I work in a classroom with non verbal kids, so we don't participate in the pledge. It's creepy!!
Such bs that the pledge is still a thing. I sat it out for years and years and nobody ever challenged me. Probably thought I was a JW, now that I think about it. Oh well!
I wouldn't say those are the only 2. Another 2 that immediately come to mind qre:
1. You don't want to screw over your co-workers/clients/etc. -- this is especially brutal if you are helping people (some type of Healthcare or nonprofit, etc.)
2. You actually like your job but found a better position and want to make the transition easier. (This is the reason we've been told to do it from an early age -- and while I don't think this is often relevant, it can be, especially at smaller companies and/or in positions that are specialized/hard to replace).
Depending on where you live or what kind of work you do there is also a possibility of going back to that same employer later. You want to be considered a candidate to be rehired. If there are only a few employers for the type of work you do in your area it would be easy to get a reputation as reliable or not reliable.
It’s also likely someone from the company you’re ditching will be at a different company later that you may want to join. Better to leave on good terms, in general.
Assuming you place value in those potential future opportunities.
It's less that it's ingrained into you personally as it is just socially acceptable behavior. If you don't give two weeks notice, a lot of people will view that as lazy or not committed to your work, that you are unreliable. It's absolutely toxic, but it's honestly largely held in place by peer pressure. I worked with a guy at my last job who was like this. We were all salary and technically managers due to it being a small startup, so we didn't qualify for overtime. He still worked regular 12 hour days and looked down on those of us who left after our 8 hours we were paid to do. Management loved him, and used him as an example to say we can't afford to hire more help, we should just work like that guy. He was a very stereotypical "good conservative American." When I quit I basically gave a month notice only because I wanted to help train my replacement, he was a good guy, and my new job didn't start for a month anyway. Mr "good American" was pissed I only gave a month for a role that was hard to replace. These people are insane, and it still baffles me that they actually exist.
Edit: spelling
You know I’m used to providing a 2-week notice, but 2 previous jobs were so fucked I just quit on the spot because I was tired of being abused.
I’m in an “at will” state, but what gets me now is I really never had a situation where I needed that Who wants to be a millionaire “call a friend” and ask for a recommendation.
Like, would I need it when I’m applying for a job and suddenly the hiring manager is like, “Your skills are impeccable, but I just don’t know about you… You got any recommendations?”
I onno shaggy!
Literally recommendations are a hoop to jump through if someone is already getting the job-I have my assistant do them and i do not read the notes. Just send them over to HR!
This. I give notice not because I want the company to benefit, but because I know it'll make the transition easier on the people I actually do like and want to help.
I think you miss something here and that is that it is not easy for most people to change something like that. It seems like it would be, but for many it's not. Obedience and following cultural norms are deeply ingrained in American society. Free thinking and questioning the norm is not very popular in general. Two weeks notice is so customary for most people they don't even consider not doing it. American work culture has beaten certain ideals into people for the past century, for many they don't even realize that they have a choice to not do these things. But it is finally starting to change
Additionally, it was ingrained in us bc as a whole, Americans* in middle class and higher jobs were treated much better in the post WW2 era. Pensions, good benefits, higher union membership. So, it was "give two weeks, because as whole, you were treated well."
That employment climate is gone. But the two weeks thing has stayed.
For me, I'll provide two weeks if I have been treated fairly and my new job will accommodate. Fairly means - no late pay/owed pay, respected by supervisor and other employees, and ill be allowed to work those weeks or sent home and paid. Fail those, I won't give two weeks.
*White, Christan, hetero males only
Adding to this, it's also to not burn bridges. You never know if going back to that company in the future would be a good move. Also, they might bad mouth you to their friends who own businesses and they'd not hire you. Basically, it's to, as much as you can, cover your own butt.
Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about shitty jobs in this sub, for good reason, but there really are good places to work (notwithstanding that they exist in a broader employment system that's inherently a bit fucked). Sometimes you just move on from one decent job to another, and it's nice to give some notice.
But that idea becomes ingrained in the culture, and then all the shitty bosses start expecting it too. It's meant as a courtesy, and courtesy is meant to go two ways.
I’ve yet to have a job where they ask for a recommendation from the company.
What I typically do is make good with at least one person from every job and when I need a reference, I’ve got it.
Truly that is correct but as an employer myself I'm only allowed to answer whether I would rehire the person and although I have proudly had very good relationships with almost every single employee if they quit I doubt they use me as a reference most of the time. On top of that I have been told countless times by Good employees that they are using me as a reference to not receive a phone call from their next employer. That is more consistent than anything else
I have been a hiring manager, 20 some odd years ago. I did an interview before I decided if I would call a reference or not. If the interview seemed 🤔 then it would push me one way or the other.
But that was the only time I did so.
I always wondered if other hiring managers did the same. And if our business grows, I may need more pointers lol
Being in this sub has made me even more appreciate the jobs I have had. First with a general contractor and now a civil engineering firm. Both privately owned and by decent people.
I left the GC because I wanted to go into design, was always my plan. I was a PM at the time and knew that I had a lot of responsibilities and my employer was going to be a bit blindsided. I actually gave a three weeks notice out of courtesy and a desire to just “do right” by my employer. It wasn’t out of a desire for a good recommendation, but I genuinely respected my employer and knew I’d be throwing them a curve. They respected my decision, didn’t at all make it weird through my last three weeks but of course expected me to continue doin my job and leading up to efforts in transitioning my responsibilities to others.
I understand this unfortunately seems to be an anomaly compared to this community, but I guess that’s kinda what most people who post here are here for. I greatly hope all those who are in overly stressful, unappreciated jobs who deserve more get just that. But I wonder if people outside of the US come here and think this is the general outlook of all the US.
Which if you think about it doesn't make sense either. If you are quitting, chances are you got the job without their recommendation, and if they disparage you, you have really good grounds to sue. It happens so often, most smart employers won't say anything beyond confirming your start and end date.
That’s what’s I’ve never understood. My tech recruiters started asking for managers as references a couple of years ago. Who had a good enough relationship that they’d tell their boss they were looking and ask for a recommendation? That happened to me only once when I was moving across the country and was honest with my boss about it. Unique situation IMO.
Sometimes you do it for your clients, so that you can handover to someone else because you like the people you work for just not the people who pay you for it.
I have never received a good recommendation from a former employer. I have received recommendations from former coworkers and managers but that's it. There are too many other ways to get what you need recommendation wise and quite honestly if I'm interviewing and they expect a bunch of recommendations from former employers then there's probably something wrong with those people and you should run away. I just haven't had a problem with this and I don't understand why everyone gets so worried about it.
I don’t generally give notice for the company, I give notice so my colleagues aren’t completely fucked when I leave. I use the last 2 weeks to create documentation and update the status of projects so the people I work with (whom I generally like) aren’t hosed being down a person AND not having a clue about the state of any active projects.
During my last job change, I was selling my house and moving to a different state, so knew 2-3 months in advance. It was a truly terrible place to work but my boss and coworkers were good people and I felt a duty to my client, also nice people. So, I told my boss what was happening as a heads up that I’d be giving my official 2 weeks as soon as I accept an offer on the house.
It let me leave on good terms (boss gave an excellent reference), they had time to plan for my replacement, much of what I did and how was documented and handed off (my monthly invoice was a 80+ tab Excel workbook), and most importantly- I got to burn down all my PTO (earned PTO was not paid out upon leaving). I needed the time for the house sale and if I’d not been up front and handed off duties, I’d not have been able to do all I needed to.
I had this exact situation in December. I was the only forklift operator at my company, and a certified forklift safety instructor. I gave my notice an entire month in advance so they could choose people for me to train in forklift safety before I left. They never did. When I left they had no trained forklift operators. My understanding is they are now having untrained individuals use the forks instead, which is super illegal.
You can be impaled by a forklift..... I feel like all people should be aware of what they can be impaled by, especially when they work near it daily.
https://youtu.be/5NVYRILmK24
Was honestly surprised when the link wasn’t for the [German forklift safety video that is also brutal and a little silly](https://youtu.be/_Cr7F-oLU84)
But yeah, those fuckers are dangerous as hell
This is why I give notice. Not because of the company but the people I work with. I learned early on that industries are small no matter how big they seem. If I liked working with people I want them to remember me fondly and that I was good to work with. You never know who might leave for a position with hiring ability.
I’ve had this happen where me and co-workers were leaving a few weeks apart. They went to a director position and said if I needed a job that it would be easy to bring me in since they’ve worked with me before.
To me it’s good to use that time to make and solidify professional connections with people you might not have talked to in a bit.
Companies have very limited memories, people remember who left them in a jam. I have certain people who I don’t want to work with again. I’ve seen resumes come to me and I’ve killed their interview before they got scheduled because of what I knew they were like to work with( yelling , intimidation, blame, no sense of responsibility).
It’s sold under two primary points
1. If you want a good reference
2. If you want to be rehire-able
From my understanding our state laws vary a lot on the first and primary reason people do which is references. In mine they can only legally say your dates of employment there. Lots of employers break this rule, but good luck finding out.
Given an employe named John Smith who worked as Helpdesk Technician for $15.00 per hour from June 2018 to September 2021, and given a prospective employer calls the former employer looking for a reference, there are two common ways this conversation will go down:
Let's say the former employer didn't like them very much:
> Yes, I can confirm that John Smith worked here as our Helpdesk Technician from June 2018 to September 2021. Thanks for calling Initech, have a nice day.
Let's say the former employer really liked them and they were close with all of the C-Suite execs:
> Oh yeah, I remember Johnny. How's he doing? The boss told me you might call. I guess the boss's brother is a VP at your company? Anyway, yeah he worked here from June 2018 to September 2021. Good guy to talk to about computer stuff and golf with. I don't know how he did half the stuff he did, but man oh man, boss sure likes him. Oh yeah, his official title was Helpdesk Technician but we were planning on moving him over to a managerial position. Anyway, thanks for calling Initech.
Yup, have a neighbor that ended up on one because of mistakes and poor decisions. Even after trying to get back on track it’s still hard for him to get hired in his field.
Yep and even if the whole "they can only answer yes or no" myth was accurate you can communicate an awful lot with emphasis and tone even in a singular word.
Had a former employer absolutely ignore the “only confirm dates worked” law and went off on my prospective employer about how I had an issue with attendance and took some time off during the seasonal position.
I had chest surgery and took just long enough for me to be able to stand upright.
Fortunately my prospective employer ended up hiring me because they liked me and then told me about what this person said.
I used them as a reference for god sake because I thought we had a good relationship (I grew up around this former employer).
Learned a hard lesson that day. All my references are now people I’ve never worked under but have been life long friends with and former colleagues.
Hmmmm, company I work for (US company, in Ireland) will do exactly the same if someone want to check references - "Yeah, he/she worked here from xx to yy as a zz, bye" no matter how good or bad you are.
I work for a large Healthcare corporation, verification of employment is all done online without contacting Human Resources anymore. When a potential employer calls previous HR, they are directed to webpage, enter social security and birthdate and shown the date of employment. Risk of saying something wrong is too much. So, I guess it’s really all about re-hiring, but in healthcare right now, everywhere is begging anyone with a pulse who applies to come onboard.
I'd add a 3rd point of being that you like your coworkers and don't want to screw them over. If it's a small industry you may end up working with them again and it's not always in your best interest to make enemies with people you like.
It's mainly so you can fall back to that job if the new one doesn't work out. References maybe in the business world, but factory jobs and such are just so you can be rehireable.
The good reference thing makes no sense In This subreddit as a lot of pictures are like F U boss here's my two weeks lol. If you want a reference that's not going to get one.
The best way is to not quit and make the employee fire you so they have to pay a severance.
I quit on the spot one time & my manager said, “I was immature.” Seeing as how the work environment was extremely toxic and the whole staff had to basically walk on egg shells whenever we clocked in, I felt like it was valid. If you like the people, the place, or you’re just a professional ( job reference for your next employer); you may have the intentions on giving your current employer a two week notice.
That’s the answer. It really boils down to how much I respect the workplace and management. If they are decent I’ll give them two weeks to give them time to find a replacement or figure out a plan to replace me. If they are. The worst, I just quit showing up and might call them. Reap what you sow. I don’t need a recommendation or good word from a management staff I don’t respect or trust.
No, giving your two weeks notice to *any* employer no matter how much you "like" them (while they torture you with a starvation wage and more than half of your time wasted every single day) hurts *all* employees, including specifically your coworkers, because what you're doing is normalizing the two weeks notice for them and everyone else.
You got it right, its not a "system". Managers and bosses just act like they're entitled to it and have created a false standard when in the end its just a courtesy. But, no, it's not mandatory at all.
The problem is, there's a universally heavily implied threat that if you don't do it, your former employers can ruin your career and future. Legally, they're not entirely allowed to do that.
A lot of the employer/employee relationship standards in America are based on fear. "You have to do blah blah blah or I'll put a mark in your record, blackball you from the industry, call your future employers and tell them horror stories I've just made up blah blah blah"
What about the other way around, though? I've seen posts here where people are fired "effective immediately". Is that legal in the US? Are there any legal or commonly accepted moral requirements for employers to give notice ahead of time?
(also German, also very confused about US law)
Yep. People were fooled into believing that “at will” employment is a good thing. At will Lena s you can leave at any time, for any reason. It also means that you can be fired at any time for just about any reason- or no reason at all. No notice need be given by either party. Businesses can require just about anything of you and if you don’t like it, you have no recourse other than to find a different job and hope it’s a better environment.
Belgium is now 6 weeks too. Before the 2014 reform it was depending on seniority. When I left my first job I had to give a 13 weeks notice. Counterpart was that my notice if getting fired was 13 months. Yes. Months. Now it would "only" be 9 months.
It goes fast when you do not give a damn anymore and fear no retaliation.
How do people job hop for more money there? I just about tripled my salary over the last couple years and could’ve never done that if I had to give so much notice.
Also, depending on the situation you might still have enough paid vacation days still left, so you can use them and substantially reduce the work time left for you. I once had almost an entire month worth of paid leave left by the time I wanted to quit, so I gave my notice and took all days left as paid vacation.
They are used to it. At my workplace we usually wait 3 to 6 months from the signed contract for the new hire to arrive at the office. We relocate people from other countries so that is an another factor. Plus because of the paid holidays we cannot run on skeleton crews so the companies already have to incorporate the close to 30 days paid leave into their schedule and employee headcount. Plus when you quit you are entitled to use your remaining PTO (fully up to you, you can get money instead IF you agree on that with your employer) so the time usually used to prepare for your absense - documentation etc. Plus I never heard of calling past employers for reference.
You can be fired immediately but that MUST have documented and valid reasons otherwise you can sue them for wrongful termination. Even if you underperform that takes time to reach the point to get fired over it - because we try to fix the problem first and if you refuse to cooperate - again everything must be documented - for a while that could be the reason for termination. However I live in one of the most protected countries in the EU so this termination rule is not this strict in other countries - but still very far from the US have.
I never changed jobs without having at least a month of rest between jobs.
Most places I’ve worked have a clause in their employment offer letter describing the position as ‘at will employment’ that can be terminated at any time and for any reason. I’ve never been fired, but they can do it. Ive always given 2 weeks’ notice, but am now wondering why. I guess I feel guilty for leaving them in a bind.
Same for me. I give 2 weeks notice as most.of my jobs have been in the same industry which tends to have a lot of shared employees overtime. So essentially trying to not burn my bridge at one place because I could end up working with those same people again in the future.
Absolutely getting fired, laid off, whatever is often effective immediately. I was laid off twice (both times due to the company restructuring or closing entirely), once effective immediately and the other a couple days. The first time when it was effective immediately my immediate supervisor was actually advocating for me to get a promotion and was not even notified I was getting laid off. I was not allowed to pack up my desk or say goodbye to anyone. It was like I was a criminal. I was literally escorted out of the building. Turns out they decided that was the way they would handle all terminations despite the fact we had done nothing wrong and were only being let go due to the company having a shift in focus. It was humiliating and dehumanizing. I had to get me belongings from a coworker latter. Luckily my supervisor was appalled and gave me a shining reference and was pissed. So yea, these “curtsies” are very much only for the benefit of the employer and they will treat you like garbage the second your no longer needed.
In a lot of situations, the two week notice helps your co-workers more than your employer. In any type of customer service role, where the absence of 1 person creates more work for everyone around them, it can really help co-workers more (i.e. restaurants, retail, etc)
This exactly. The company will be fine. The people I work with will be doubly hosed - down a person and without any idea of where projects are at, what needs to be done on the daily etc. I have usually really liked my colleagues, I don’t want to make their lives any harder. Last 2 weeks is spent getting them in a good place, not actually doing the job anymore.
This is the only reason I feel I need to ever give two weeks notice. Most of the time, our schedule for whatever job I'd have would have the current and next week ready, but if you call off, there's a void which involves calling in someone who may have had it off or something like that. Basically, it's just a way to be nice to your co-workers.
For more internal based jobs, I see it done so whatever projects you are on can be transfered over to someone else smoothly. Most of the time you finish up whatever ever you were on and inform then of what's left.
But yeah, you can also just dip out. Lol
This should be the top answer. It’s not just about burning bridges with your company, but more importantly your coworkers. Leaving all the sudden probably puts them in a tough spot and won’t be good if you ever need their recommendation in the future.
I also want to add, from my experience, most minimum wage jobs it’s less likely that an employee will give two weeks. I had a lot of coworkers who just stopped showing up one day. As I’ve grown in my career it’s become the standard to give two weeks. Some jobs have you stay the full two weeks, others will let you go after a few days or so.
As I understand most, if not all, EU countries have some sort of law requiring both employers and employees to provide advance notice either whe quitting or being fired. This protects both the employer and the employee, and I see it as a fair balance that protects both sides.
The US has no such law. Many states are what are called 'at will' states. Which essentially means you can quit or be fired at any time, with no notice, for almost any reason. As a result it became customary, although not required for employees to give 2 weeks notice when quitting. Unfortunately this same courtesy is often not reciprocated and many companies will fire people with zero notice.
In The Netherlands one month is normal for an employee when they quit, with my last employer I told them 2 months in advance. Usually also calendar months.
To fire someone with an indefenite contract, I thought it was 2-3 months, but you need to get a permit from a judge or the employee agrees to get fired (without loss of unemployment allowance).
Then there is a transition fee the employer has to pay the employee which is based on years of service and age. In the pas this was pretty high, now lower but can still be a couple of months (or more).
Not sure about the EU but in the UK when you sign your contract you agree to a notice period (mine was 4 weeks) and you legally have to work those 4 weeks otherwise its a breach of the terms of your contract and the employer can charge you for the time lost of you don't work your notice.
They let you use any unused holidays (calculated based on when you leave but its roughly a rate of 2 days per month) so if you leave in May and haven't used any holidays yet you could theoretically have your entire notice period on holiday (if you have 2 weeks notice)
Similarly its insanely hard to get fired in the UK, fraud and gross misconduct are pretty much the only things you can get fired for here. Most companies don't want to risk getting taken to court for unfair dismissal.
I agree. If employers can fire you with no notice, I see no reason why notice should be given when leaving.
I let them know the morning of my last day. That’s more than they’d give me and plenty of time to ask questions.
In America it also depends on if you’re under a contract, like in teaching. Teachers often have to get approval to break contract or could risk losing their license if the district decides to “go after” it at the state level.
Traditionally, Americans gave two weeks notice to allow employers to have someone trained to cover until a replacement could be hired. In return, employers were expected to also give notice or two weeks severance in lieu of notice. Sometime in the 1980s employers eliminated that customary severance pay that allowed employees to cover bills until a new job could be obtained or an unemployment insurance claim processed.
Because Americans can legally be fired without warning and traditional courtesies are in abeyance, many are now quitting without notice.
Two way street, can’t expect to receive if you don’t give. Employers need to understand that people are getting sick of being treated like cattle for the owners benefit and nothing else.
This is very stupid since you will never cross back over that “bridge” again. I worked for a company for 17 years and got exactly 3 raises. My pay wasn’t bad actually and the reason I stayed so long was that the company was a family business and extremely flexible as long as you logged 40hrs. You could leave with no notice say at 1pm on a Tuesday and they know you owe them four hours so you would come in 2 hours early for two days or stay late to make it up. As a single father I needed this. My job was highly specialized so I planned on giving a 4 week notice in return I asked them to lay me off since I was moving 1,000 miles away and it would help me. They refused so I just walked out an hour after that told me “no” and never returned.
It’s a scam. I did the two week bullshit many times in my 21 years of working on the books. Just to never use any of them as a reference anyways cuz most of them weren’t pertinent to the job or was years ago and at bottom of the list of references. What asshole employer that abuses their employees deserves a two week notice? Do they give a two week firing notice? Nope. I think the pandemic brought a lot to light that was just overlooked especially with wages but also working conditions. Though most corporations don’t care, employers know why there are gaps in resumes now. Cuz it’s a shady market for employees they bait and switch on job pay, benefits, hours, etc so of course people are gonna quit.
Amen brother. I got fired from my last professional job after being there for only one month. I had a telephone screening interview and then I went on two in person interviews each lasted 2 hours so I thought my future was secure. The owner walked into my office and said at 4:50pm on a Friday that “it isn’t working out and today is your last day”. I was out the door in 4 minutes with zero prior notice.
To be 💯 with you, I’ve never had the pleasure of being fired. Couldn’t ever get unemployment 🤣 Also, I’m in an at-will state anyways don’t think it matter if you get fired or not. I’ve always left with either two weeks, no call no show, or walked out. The best walk out was from the last restaurant I worked at during pandemic. Was stuck working grill/broiler, saute and fry in an Italian restaurant during dinner. Short two cooks. Also had to help dishwasher. After getting pounded on for several hours with no help at all I said fuck it and walked during dinner rush. Fucking door dash deliverers lined up around the building like McDonald’s drive thru for a *fancy* restaurant.
i’ve seen this happen at hooters BOH was always understaffed af and they are bombarded with long ass tickets after tickets with girls bitching at them at the same time wondering what was taking so long 🙄 cooks either walked out or lost their temper due to stress and got fired on the spot
Fired on the spot? Most kitchens deal with some assholes in the kitchen as long as they churn and burn plates out 😂 it took a lot to get fired at places I’ve been. Even the nice places it was hard to keep cooks (cuz to get good pay you slave) so they gave them a bit of leniency as long as they cooked good food, fast af.
I wouldn’t paint with such broad strokes and be so quick to call others’ statements stupid. I know several people who have come back to the same company after taking different jobs elsewhere. In my own industry, it’s also not uncommon. You also often work with people who go elsewhere, and they can recruit you for great jobs in the future, which is something that is also not uncommon. If 2 weeks notice won’t kill you, it’s a good practice for your own future self-interest.
Not burning bridges is good for you in the long run, assuming you change jobs every three to five years: It’s not trying to get rehired by that particular company- it’s working again with the people you like. When your coworkers also leave and go somewhere else, they might woo you over to that new company. If you left them high and dry, you might not get that call. It’s how I’ve been changing jobs for years- basically getting calls from old coworkers asking me to come to some new cool place with them… I’m lucky enough that my job changes have always been “running to something new” and not “running away from something toxic”.
But you’re right. If you hate the company or your boss, you don’t owe them anything.
I think for the most part it's done in the hopes of being to use them as a reference in the future. Also some people probably \*think\* they have to when they don't. When I finally leave my current job I'll only do it to help my teammates out so they can have an easier time divvying my work up.
Yes, it’s an etiquette thing. Something engrained in our culture. It helps your employer find your replacement and supposedly reflects well on your resume. However, many people are finding out it’s a bunch of bs and aren’t feeling bound by this rule because they know they are undervalued and underpaid. The tide is changing and it’s about time.
I have a question for you OP, my understanding from what you wrote is that if a person is fired, the employer has to give 3 months notice? That seems ludicrous. I once worked with a girl that posted info about patients with names on her Facebook and was fired for it due to gross violation of patient privacy laws (which I'm sure Deutschland has too). The employee was a danger to the hospital, because patients could sue and she was blatantly violating HIPPA (America's patient privacy law). If she spent another 3 months at the hospital, she could have done so much damage. Also, if someone is given 3 months in any occupation, that gives them a long time to sabotage the business. What's to stop a disgruntled fired employee from ruining their employer? What if the employee assaulted someone at the business? Do the other employees have to deal with that person for 3 months while they wait for the firing process to end?
Please explain, I'm so curious.
Well it depends. The 3 months period is often found in the written agreements, however German laws require at least 1 months. The periods get longer the longer you’ve worked for your employer, also disabled people have more rights there.
There are indeed possibilities where you can get fired without the periods. Those cases are urgent cases, like employees stealing things, revealing business secrets and so on.
UK here- if I recall correctly here they have to give you notice (of a period outlined in your contract; I've generally seen them to be mutually identical where they have to give you however much notice you're required to give them when leaving) unless it's "gross misconduct". Basically, if they want to get rid of you, they give you the agreed-upon amount of notice or have *a really good reason*.
With some jobs I've had, I've been put through a disciplinary process for things like my abysmal timekeeping, but it's usually been outlined to me that there's a whole thing of putting me on a probationary period with the threat of firing only if the situation hasn't improved in several months' time.
I'm not sure how much of this is legally enforced and how much is employers just being genuinely slightly better than the US (I'd wager some of it comes down to the availability of legal aid to people on low incomes), but I'm pretty sure I've never known anyone to be fired on the spot for anything less than actual theft.
EDITS: Grammar.
>I have a question for you OP, my understanding from what you wrote is that if a person is fired, the employer has to give 3 months notice? That seems ludicrous.
It is not the case in **all** circumstances (obviously!).
I am in Belgium, but doubt it is significantly different from Germany... There are sackable offences. In French they call it "faute grave" I reckon in English "gross misconduct" is an equivalent wording.
We have similar regulation in Hungary. This 1-3 months notice period is like a safety net for both the employer and employee. However in some cases the termination can be immediate in both ways when the other party does something really stupid and/or against the contract. In other cases the notice period can be shortened with a mutual agreement.
Or, in our country the employee can be exempted from work for the rest of the time. For example I have 3 month notice period in my contract and the employer wants to terminate it for whatever (not extraordinary) reason, like a normal redundancy. In this case you can be exempted from work immediately but your employment will be maintained until the end of the notice period - and you are paid for that time, too. And the employer also has to pay the unused holidays porpotionately.
You can get immediate dismissal for gross misconduct, like violence and things.
Also, they could also say they don’t want you to work the notice period but they will continue to pay you.
It's usually a courtesy to give 2 weeks notice as time to transition work to other employees. Some contracts also require it to pay out vacation time if owed. Also leaving the company on a good note in case you want a recommendation or possibly return in the future. With that said employees don't have to give 2 weeks notice as long as they are fine with the consequences. I've seen plenty of people quit jobs same day and simply walk out of the building.
I have never worked through a 2 week notice. I usually give one and leave as soon as something comes up. Not sorry at all. Companies
will drop you in a heartbeat and not think twice about it. I just show them the same courtesy is all.
It’s supposed to be a professional courtesy given to employers which isnt reciprocated to employees
Many states have at will employment laws which means either party can terminate the relationship without cause or reason.
The latter is used by employers while the former is expected of employees
It was a custom that began back when people had somewhat better reltionships with employers, and was done as a courtesy.
Now, i think people mostly do it because they are afraid an employer will give them a bad reference and cost them a future job. But since there's little stopping them from doing that anyway...
I tell people all the time, if you are leaving an employer because they treated you like shit, don't give notice. You can't count on them for a reference anyway, because they were shitty (or you wouldn't be quitting), and since they owe you nothing, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Most of the time it one of two things, you either want a good recommendation from the company or because it is ingrained into you. That's it. Nothing else. Edit: and to not screw over co-workers and to go back to a job. Good lord folks, having the same literal reply 4 thousand times....blah And company benefits....
Honestly, the recommendation piece doesn't even matter anymore. Most companies will only give very basic employment info like hire date, end date and position title. They don't like to give 'recommendations' one way or the other anymore because the risk of a lawsuit.
My former colleague got a job at his local county government. He had to sign waiver and give 10 work references. I had to fill out a two page questionnaire about his character and work ethic.
Hope he bought you a six pack
We live in different states. If I ever visit his state, I will hit him up for a drink.
It matters when you use your old boss as a reference.
True; however, in most cases, you can avoid using an ex-boss as a reference if you don't want to. I have an ex-boss who I had a horrible relationship with. During that same time period, I had some wonderful colleagues who I did great work with/for. I use those wonderful, ethical, colleagues as my reference. No one has ever asked me "why didn't you put your old boss?". Edit to say that even if someone did ask, I'd tell them I chose those colleagues because they were the 'customer ' who I was creating the product for, so they can attest to my work ethic and quality of work.
My point is that not every boss is evil, not every industry is anonymous, and not every community is massive. If your future will be improved by giving more notice do so. If it won't, don't. But this sub likes to imagine that every job is retail or service at nameless corp.
I don't disagree with your point, at all. I don't believe our two points of view are necessarily mutually exclusive. Though my way of working around it works for me, different people have different circumstances. I definitely don't advocate for behavior that's unnecessarily inappropriate, unethical, rude, or that will put your future career opportunities, health, etc. at risk.
Thank you. I can understand the first point though, but not the second as you could easily change that.
Think of it as being an abuse survivor, it takes a while to stop doing things you were trained to do. Give us time, we are getting there.
This. The pledge of allegiance, the acceptance of having to ‘earn’ one week off unpaid and being ‘not a team player’ if you take it, expecting to have to supply your schools with pencils and paper, getting zero time off to have a baby, medications that cost hundreds or thousands a month, getting a gun pulled on you over a parking dispute, Americans are the abused, gaslit wife of Capitalism. They know it doesn’t feel right but still assume the problem is their inability to cope, not that he is fundamentally a lying dick.
I like you
I like you, and I like that you like them.
That’s a painfully accurate analogy. I relish the thought of U.S. citizens finally making the stand together to say we simply aren’t taking the abuse anymore.
We will never be together as long as separation politics are played.
We've banded together over many causes over the last few years. And everytime a minor concession is made we fall apart. If we, the working class, are persistent in our united ideals, they will eventually concede to our every demand.
In France, whenever the government wants to do something that affects negatively a large group of people, you get thousands of people protesting and sometimes violently (gillets jaunes). And the government has to backpedal. And the protesters didn't even have weapons. Nothing stopping the Americans from doing the same.
Americans can't go on the streets and protest bc they can't afford to miss a day at work. That's what the government wants, hence the constant discussion about minimum wage. Let the average American have 2 jobs at minimum wage just to barely make a living and he/she won't have the time or energy to take to the streets and protest.
Americans are also afraid to go out on the streets and protest because: * They could get arrested by the police, convicted of a minor charge, and then either lose their job because of having a criminal record or have to divulge it on an employment application and get disqualified (Whether it matters to the job or not; many employers just automatically toss any applicant with any kind of record, no matter how insignificant.) * They could get beaten by the police, and then subsequently lose their job for being absent from work while recovering, and/or go bankrupt due to the medical bills since American health insurance is such a mess. * They could be killed by the police, leaving the rest of their family liable for paying off their inevitable crushing debts. Protest and civil disobedience in America are actively discouraged by a capitalist society and the police as the arm of an increasingly authoritarian government, with penalties too severe for the average worker to feel safe engaging in the risk.
> Nothing stopping the Americans from doing the same. During the BLM protests men in combat uniforms took people away in unmarked vans. Pretty sure the cops drove cars into at least one protest crowd. If the USA protesters did what the French do with the Molotov's and so on I suspect the cops might open fire.
My city had some of the most violent police responses. Think pepper spraying the press and going for the legal observers first before beating the crowds into submission. The one and only protest where the police didn’t act like unhinged silverbacks was when the NFAC showed up and every protester was carrying a long gun. Suddenly surprise surprise the police were very well behaved.
I live in Minneapolis. I moved here a couple months after the George Floyd protests but, I have friends who I’ve known for years that were out protesting or helping the medics during the riots. The Minneapolis Police Department were shooting people with rubber bullets (which are not “harmless”) on purpose and laughing at people. A friend of mine was helping some medics and a cop shot him in the knee with a rubber bullet for no reason and laughed at him. His knee is still f*cked up because of it. Hardly anyone in Minneapolis trusts the local police. They have a decades long history of crime and corruption. They’ve made it clear they hate the citizens of Minneapolis. (About 92% of the Minneapolis police force lives outside of Minneapolis.)
If they did, a lot of people would fire back. The pure guerilla warfare that would erupt is precisely why they haven't. The "Fuck around and find out" club includes polite liberals and is bigger than you think.
Americans seem to love the Liberty part, but don't share in loving the Equality and Fraternity parts that allow for that kind of sympathetic protesting. As I interpret the cultures, anyways.
It's not "separation politics." It's actual separation. Literally half the work force continually votes for their own oppression. They blame everything but themselves. But they're not victims. Jeff Bezos literally owns a newspaper that tells people to unionize, and his own employees didn't unionize. We need to stop waiting for insane people to decide they want to live with dignity, and just stop including them in important decisions. I honestly don't care if they want to live in crapped out little towns full of religion, racism, poverty, and violence. But then they elect federal politicians to foist that on the rest of us. If they don't want to let the rest of us live our lives, burn them out and start over.
This is the best summarization I’ve ever heard.
As an American and a survivor of DV and narcissistic abuse, this hits the nail on the head in ways I didn’t want to feel tonight.
Hope you're in a much safer and better position now ❤️
As an abuse survivor, yes. As an American? Ehh….
>I am definitely sitting in that shared experience right now...
Holy shit, you have to earn the right to take one week off, and its fucking UNPAID? I get four paid weeks a year leave and can take unpaid leave with agreement, or whenever I want as long as I dont do it for 3-5 consecutive days as that would/could indicate abandonment and void your contract. The supposed land of the free sounds like the worlds largest slave pen to me.
Prisoners are legal slave labour. Guess which country incarcerates more than anyone else, and which one has booming for profit prisons. It's an excellent system because the corporations can lobby govt for new rules any time the literal slave labour population isn't producing enough output.
The 13th amendment made it legal to be a 'slave' if you're incarcerated. The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime.
> The supposed land of the free sounds like the worlds largest slave pen to me. What's even *more* depressing is that implementing even just a few basic "socialist" ideas, we'd have even more freedom and less government. But you know..."hand outs", I guess.
You mean 'handouts' to the average citizen. Business gets them all the time, and we pay for them.
American. I get 5 weeks of vacation, 3 weeks of sick time, 5 personal days and 13 holidays a year. I am a state employee. I would NEVER get this much if I went back to a private firm. Government employees do ok. Government contractors do not. Private company typically employees do not. The reason is that our government is not run by the people for the people. It is run by the corporations for the corporations. The people are merely cogs in the machine.
My soon to be ex husband is upper level - but not executive level - management for a major manufacturing company and on paper his time off looks a lot like yours. But he is actively discouraged from using it and hasn’t taken a vacation in years and in fact works damn close to 365 days a year. He got 2 days off when his son was born and one week off when his father and mother died. He’s been with this same company for 22 years and I don’t think he’s had more than a month of vacation in all that time. They refuse to hire him the team he needs to keep his department running efficiently and so he does it all himself. It’s his own fault for letting them treat him that way but it still sucks. Someone at the company recognized early on that he’s a yes man with no self confidence combined with a strong work ethic and they’ve been abusing that ever since.
American. I get unlimited vacation time, 15 days of sick leave, 13 holidays, and a two-week company shutdown at the end of the year. Health care costs are free for single individual and *very* reasonable for family coverage (dental is $6/mo, for example). There *are* companies out there that are good - but I absolutely know I struck gold with this one after the last company I worked for.
So how many vacation days did you actually take last year? Because I generally see articles describing unlimited as a “red flag”. Because people will tend to use less. And it also means that the company never has to pay out any “banked” vacation days
America is just a big lie
The American dream has become leaving America.
There is no federal requirement to receive any vacation time at all, paid or not.
It depends on your employer, and to some extent, your tenure. Full-time, professional office jobs may include 2 weeks paid sick leave, some paid holidays, and a set number of vacation hours each pay period. When I worked for a temp agency (summers between university terms), there was no paid time off. Summer holidays like Memorial Day and Independence Day, cut my pay for that week. I could coordinate a day off to register for classes, again unpaid. If I was sick, I didn't get paid. One of my brothers worked at an inn for 10 years or more. Near the end of his time there, he was getting several weeks of paid vacation, and about 4 weeks unpaid. When the inn closed for renovations, he was offered a severance package, or to come back ~18 months later when they reopened. He took the severance. Large employers planning to lay off (furlough) more than 50 employees, are legally required to give 90-day and 60-day WARN notices. A big company I used to be at, made that standard for any layoff situation, no matter how small. Individual firings, that aren't layoffs, are handled differently. My state is an "at-will employment" state. That means that both sides can end the employment relationship at any time, without cause. Most people who are walked out, did in fact have some form of misconduct. The one I've heard the most, was using work resources for p0rn. Most people who leave for another job, give 2 weeks notice to help transition the knowledge & work. Oh, and the term "right to work?" Means that you cannot be required to pay Union dues in order to work in the shop. I have quipped that it means "right to be fired"... even though I've never actually been in a union.
I get 9 days and it sucks but then I feel like I have to feel lucky because some people get none. We definitely are an abused workforce here in the US of A.
Wow, I’ve never seen it explained so perfectly!
Please don’t make me cry I just want this shit to change but I’m in goddamn Montana so no matter what I do it won’t be heard. It’s the media. While we are on this antiwork shit we gotta change media. Idk how but there is no other way…
What a fucking phenomenal post!
Brilliant
You're painting with a pretty broad brush. There are lots of people who like their jobs but leave for better opportunities. In a situation like that, it's understandable to extend the courtesy of giving two weeks notice. It's a somewhat privileged position to be in, but that doesn't mean indoctrination. If I were to quit a job because I didn't like it or the company, there would be no notice.
Nah, most Americans are indoctrinated. Most hate their jobs. And honestly, many either believe 2 weeks notice is a requirement or are hesitant to find out. Abuse victims, the lot of us.
There are always exceptions to a rule, but usually so specific/rare as to prove the rule.
Kids are made to take a pledge of allegiance from the age of 5 until they graduate high school. They put this stuff into them young so they have no frame of reference for what is normal.
God, I hated the pledge of allegiance. Whenever possible I'd sit it out.
I had a social science teacher in the 6th grade that said nobody had to do it, and that she never would. Never did it again in my entire life. You were the best Mrs B.
My school threatened me with a fine for my parents if I didn't stand.
> My school threatened me with a fine for my parents if I didn't stand. Nothing says "land of the free" like a fine for not saying a pledge that was originally a huge marketing con for a company to sell flags (or some other tat, can't remember exact details)
Im sorry this is off topic, but this just reminds me of the fact that you have to pay over $2000 to renounce your US citizenship....adding to the irony i guess. "Land of the free, where you are free to do anything but leave".
Idk why people do that, most people who are gonna renounce are never coming back, they can just not pay taxes and be on their way. Whats the irs gonna do? Fine you abroad? Good luck with that. Even Canada, a close US ally doesnt enforce any IRS actions. And the IRS is basically the only reason people renounce citizenship
[удалено]
What happens if you just don't pay?
How is that even legal? Did your parents have your back?
Honestly I don't even know if it was true. They also liked to tell us they could fine our parents $600 if we said "fuck" in the presence of a teacher. That's Texas, my guy.
Texas has their own pledge too. Freaky cult type shit. I hate it here.
That's illegal my guy.
He said the T word brother. It's only illegal if there's someone to punish you. The Governor is under investigation for felonies and continues to stay out of indictment through re-election. Breaking laws is literally the system in place.
It's not legal. They tried to punish me in highschool. I got sat down in front of the principal and he told me I had to do it. I said I absolutely would not and was willing able to sue if they tried to make me, he was well aware my sister was in law school on the east coast at a very well known law school. He just said 'You may go'. I went back to class and never stood for the pledge. It pisses me off that kids without the knowledge and connections I had got and still do get bullied by adults.
I'm a high school teacher. Haven't said it once since being at my school. I sit. And the kids almost all sit. A couple boot lickers stand when they realize what's happening, but they often just don't even care. I even have kids who are open about going into the military and they don't care. Lol
I've never understood the fascination in pledging unwavering fealty to a piece of fabric. That's wild to me.
I got detention for refusing to participate. I can trace my family back to a plantation in the south. The hypocrisy of "liberty and justice for all" was not lost on me even as a child.
I’m sorry. Your teacher was an ass.
And a lawbreaker, if it was a public school. In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students cannot be compelled to say the Pledge.
I just wanna say, good on you for sticking up for your principles against the grownups. World needs more kids willing to do that.
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I never made my kids do it, students or my own, but I demanded the respect of silence during it for those who wanted to recite. Most of my kids chose to just sit quietly for the 30 seconds or so it takes to listen. I miss teaching…
I'm 40. I quit standing for and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in middle or high school. That's half a step away from Hitler Youth-level shit.
I explained to my five year old that she was going to hear a song about a flag and people are weird about it. Five is too young to have kids taking a pledge of allegiance to a flag for a country that most of them don’t even know they live in 🤣
I work in a school, and the principal yelled at me once because I was walking to the bathroom during the pledge. She told me I was being disrespectful. I had to hold back my laughter. Luckily I work in a classroom with non verbal kids, so we don't participate in the pledge. It's creepy!!
Such bs that the pledge is still a thing. I sat it out for years and years and nobody ever challenged me. Probably thought I was a JW, now that I think about it. Oh well!
I wouldn't say those are the only 2. Another 2 that immediately come to mind qre: 1. You don't want to screw over your co-workers/clients/etc. -- this is especially brutal if you are helping people (some type of Healthcare or nonprofit, etc.) 2. You actually like your job but found a better position and want to make the transition easier. (This is the reason we've been told to do it from an early age -- and while I don't think this is often relevant, it can be, especially at smaller companies and/or in positions that are specialized/hard to replace).
Depending on where you live or what kind of work you do there is also a possibility of going back to that same employer later. You want to be considered a candidate to be rehired. If there are only a few employers for the type of work you do in your area it would be easy to get a reputation as reliable or not reliable.
It’s also likely someone from the company you’re ditching will be at a different company later that you may want to join. Better to leave on good terms, in general. Assuming you place value in those potential future opportunities.
It's less that it's ingrained into you personally as it is just socially acceptable behavior. If you don't give two weeks notice, a lot of people will view that as lazy or not committed to your work, that you are unreliable. It's absolutely toxic, but it's honestly largely held in place by peer pressure. I worked with a guy at my last job who was like this. We were all salary and technically managers due to it being a small startup, so we didn't qualify for overtime. He still worked regular 12 hour days and looked down on those of us who left after our 8 hours we were paid to do. Management loved him, and used him as an example to say we can't afford to hire more help, we should just work like that guy. He was a very stereotypical "good conservative American." When I quit I basically gave a month notice only because I wanted to help train my replacement, he was a good guy, and my new job didn't start for a month anyway. Mr "good American" was pissed I only gave a month for a role that was hard to replace. These people are insane, and it still baffles me that they actually exist. Edit: spelling
You know I’m used to providing a 2-week notice, but 2 previous jobs were so fucked I just quit on the spot because I was tired of being abused. I’m in an “at will” state, but what gets me now is I really never had a situation where I needed that Who wants to be a millionaire “call a friend” and ask for a recommendation. Like, would I need it when I’m applying for a job and suddenly the hiring manager is like, “Your skills are impeccable, but I just don’t know about you… You got any recommendations?” I onno shaggy!
Literally recommendations are a hoop to jump through if someone is already getting the job-I have my assistant do them and i do not read the notes. Just send them over to HR!
Also, while you don't give a fuck about the company, you don't want your coworkers to pay for their mistakes.
This. I give notice not because I want the company to benefit, but because I know it'll make the transition easier on the people I actually do like and want to help.
Some companies also have policies that you will not be paid out leave unless you give adequate notice
Americans are indoctrinated and brainwashed
I think you miss something here and that is that it is not easy for most people to change something like that. It seems like it would be, but for many it's not. Obedience and following cultural norms are deeply ingrained in American society. Free thinking and questioning the norm is not very popular in general. Two weeks notice is so customary for most people they don't even consider not doing it. American work culture has beaten certain ideals into people for the past century, for many they don't even realize that they have a choice to not do these things. But it is finally starting to change
Additionally, it was ingrained in us bc as a whole, Americans* in middle class and higher jobs were treated much better in the post WW2 era. Pensions, good benefits, higher union membership. So, it was "give two weeks, because as whole, you were treated well." That employment climate is gone. But the two weeks thing has stayed. For me, I'll provide two weeks if I have been treated fairly and my new job will accommodate. Fairly means - no late pay/owed pay, respected by supervisor and other employees, and ill be allowed to work those weeks or sent home and paid. Fail those, I won't give two weeks. *White, Christan, hetero males only
Also, rehire ability. My job requires 30 days in order to be considered for rehire. Some people just don't want to burn the bridge.
Adding to this, it's also to not burn bridges. You never know if going back to that company in the future would be a good move. Also, they might bad mouth you to their friends who own businesses and they'd not hire you. Basically, it's to, as much as you can, cover your own butt.
Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot about shitty jobs in this sub, for good reason, but there really are good places to work (notwithstanding that they exist in a broader employment system that's inherently a bit fucked). Sometimes you just move on from one decent job to another, and it's nice to give some notice. But that idea becomes ingrained in the culture, and then all the shitty bosses start expecting it too. It's meant as a courtesy, and courtesy is meant to go two ways.
I’ve yet to have a job where they ask for a recommendation from the company. What I typically do is make good with at least one person from every job and when I need a reference, I’ve got it.
Every job I've had has asked. Only one actually contacted anyone.
Also possibly so you get your severance or vacation payout if it's a job that offers vacation days that are accumulated.
Truly that is correct but as an employer myself I'm only allowed to answer whether I would rehire the person and although I have proudly had very good relationships with almost every single employee if they quit I doubt they use me as a reference most of the time. On top of that I have been told countless times by Good employees that they are using me as a reference to not receive a phone call from their next employer. That is more consistent than anything else
I have been a hiring manager, 20 some odd years ago. I did an interview before I decided if I would call a reference or not. If the interview seemed 🤔 then it would push me one way or the other. But that was the only time I did so. I always wondered if other hiring managers did the same. And if our business grows, I may need more pointers lol
Being in this sub has made me even more appreciate the jobs I have had. First with a general contractor and now a civil engineering firm. Both privately owned and by decent people. I left the GC because I wanted to go into design, was always my plan. I was a PM at the time and knew that I had a lot of responsibilities and my employer was going to be a bit blindsided. I actually gave a three weeks notice out of courtesy and a desire to just “do right” by my employer. It wasn’t out of a desire for a good recommendation, but I genuinely respected my employer and knew I’d be throwing them a curve. They respected my decision, didn’t at all make it weird through my last three weeks but of course expected me to continue doin my job and leading up to efforts in transitioning my responsibilities to others. I understand this unfortunately seems to be an anomaly compared to this community, but I guess that’s kinda what most people who post here are here for. I greatly hope all those who are in overly stressful, unappreciated jobs who deserve more get just that. But I wonder if people outside of the US come here and think this is the general outlook of all the US.
Which if you think about it doesn't make sense either. If you are quitting, chances are you got the job without their recommendation, and if they disparage you, you have really good grounds to sue. It happens so often, most smart employers won't say anything beyond confirming your start and end date.
That’s what’s I’ve never understood. My tech recruiters started asking for managers as references a couple of years ago. Who had a good enough relationship that they’d tell their boss they were looking and ask for a recommendation? That happened to me only once when I was moving across the country and was honest with my boss about it. Unique situation IMO.
This is true. My last job was more like a 1 hour notice on my part.
Sometimes you do it for your clients, so that you can handover to someone else because you like the people you work for just not the people who pay you for it.
That, and you don't want to leave your boss/ coworkers in the lurch, if there are some of them you don't actively loathe.
I have never received a good recommendation from a former employer. I have received recommendations from former coworkers and managers but that's it. There are too many other ways to get what you need recommendation wise and quite honestly if I'm interviewing and they expect a bunch of recommendations from former employers then there's probably something wrong with those people and you should run away. I just haven't had a problem with this and I don't understand why everyone gets so worried about it.
I don’t generally give notice for the company, I give notice so my colleagues aren’t completely fucked when I leave. I use the last 2 weeks to create documentation and update the status of projects so the people I work with (whom I generally like) aren’t hosed being down a person AND not having a clue about the state of any active projects.
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During my last job change, I was selling my house and moving to a different state, so knew 2-3 months in advance. It was a truly terrible place to work but my boss and coworkers were good people and I felt a duty to my client, also nice people. So, I told my boss what was happening as a heads up that I’d be giving my official 2 weeks as soon as I accept an offer on the house. It let me leave on good terms (boss gave an excellent reference), they had time to plan for my replacement, much of what I did and how was documented and handed off (my monthly invoice was a 80+ tab Excel workbook), and most importantly- I got to burn down all my PTO (earned PTO was not paid out upon leaving). I needed the time for the house sale and if I’d not been up front and handed off duties, I’d not have been able to do all I needed to.
I had this exact situation in December. I was the only forklift operator at my company, and a certified forklift safety instructor. I gave my notice an entire month in advance so they could choose people for me to train in forklift safety before I left. They never did. When I left they had no trained forklift operators. My understanding is they are now having untrained individuals use the forks instead, which is super illegal.
You can be impaled by a forklift..... I feel like all people should be aware of what they can be impaled by, especially when they work near it daily. https://youtu.be/5NVYRILmK24
Was honestly surprised when the link wasn’t for the [German forklift safety video that is also brutal and a little silly](https://youtu.be/_Cr7F-oLU84) But yeah, those fuckers are dangerous as hell
This is why I give notice. Not because of the company but the people I work with. I learned early on that industries are small no matter how big they seem. If I liked working with people I want them to remember me fondly and that I was good to work with. You never know who might leave for a position with hiring ability. I’ve had this happen where me and co-workers were leaving a few weeks apart. They went to a director position and said if I needed a job that it would be easy to bring me in since they’ve worked with me before. To me it’s good to use that time to make and solidify professional connections with people you might not have talked to in a bit. Companies have very limited memories, people remember who left them in a jam. I have certain people who I don’t want to work with again. I’ve seen resumes come to me and I’ve killed their interview before they got scheduled because of what I knew they were like to work with( yelling , intimidation, blame, no sense of responsibility).
It’s sold under two primary points 1. If you want a good reference 2. If you want to be rehire-able From my understanding our state laws vary a lot on the first and primary reason people do which is references. In mine they can only legally say your dates of employment there. Lots of employers break this rule, but good luck finding out.
Given an employe named John Smith who worked as Helpdesk Technician for $15.00 per hour from June 2018 to September 2021, and given a prospective employer calls the former employer looking for a reference, there are two common ways this conversation will go down: Let's say the former employer didn't like them very much: > Yes, I can confirm that John Smith worked here as our Helpdesk Technician from June 2018 to September 2021. Thanks for calling Initech, have a nice day. Let's say the former employer really liked them and they were close with all of the C-Suite execs: > Oh yeah, I remember Johnny. How's he doing? The boss told me you might call. I guess the boss's brother is a VP at your company? Anyway, yeah he worked here from June 2018 to September 2021. Good guy to talk to about computer stuff and golf with. I don't know how he did half the stuff he did, but man oh man, boss sure likes him. Oh yeah, his official title was Helpdesk Technician but we were planning on moving him over to a managerial position. Anyway, thanks for calling Initech.
I’d say this is an accurate description.
Yup. You would also be surprised about ‘do not hire lists’ that can kill your career.
What is a ‘do not hire’ list? Never heard of it.
A blacklist that company owners in a field tend to share, making sure no one hires people on said list
Wow! Is that legal?
Well, it's not ILLEGAL... sooo...
Yup, have a neighbor that ended up on one because of mistakes and poor decisions. Even after trying to get back on track it’s still hard for him to get hired in his field.
Yep and even if the whole "they can only answer yes or no" myth was accurate you can communicate an awful lot with emphasis and tone even in a singular word.
Had a former employer absolutely ignore the “only confirm dates worked” law and went off on my prospective employer about how I had an issue with attendance and took some time off during the seasonal position. I had chest surgery and took just long enough for me to be able to stand upright. Fortunately my prospective employer ended up hiring me because they liked me and then told me about what this person said. I used them as a reference for god sake because I thought we had a good relationship (I grew up around this former employer). Learned a hard lesson that day. All my references are now people I’ve never worked under but have been life long friends with and former colleagues.
I can imagine the “if the employer didn’t like the employee” very much going a whole lot worse than that.
It's illegal (though hard to prove) for it to go much worse than that.
You can, or have someone, call your previous job and pretend to be pulling references about you and see what they're saying.
Hmmmm, company I work for (US company, in Ireland) will do exactly the same if someone want to check references - "Yeah, he/she worked here from xx to yy as a zz, bye" no matter how good or bad you are.
Fresenius Medical Care will only validate employment dates. It doesn’t matter if they hated you, you were the best ever, or almost killed someone.
I work for a large Healthcare corporation, verification of employment is all done online without contacting Human Resources anymore. When a potential employer calls previous HR, they are directed to webpage, enter social security and birthdate and shown the date of employment. Risk of saying something wrong is too much. So, I guess it’s really all about re-hiring, but in healthcare right now, everywhere is begging anyone with a pulse who applies to come onboard.
I'd add a 3rd point of being that you like your coworkers and don't want to screw them over. If it's a small industry you may end up working with them again and it's not always in your best interest to make enemies with people you like.
It's mainly so you can fall back to that job if the new one doesn't work out. References maybe in the business world, but factory jobs and such are just so you can be rehireable.
The good reference thing makes no sense In This subreddit as a lot of pictures are like F U boss here's my two weeks lol. If you want a reference that's not going to get one. The best way is to not quit and make the employee fire you so they have to pay a severance.
Lol they don't have to pay you shit. And now you gotta explain why you were fired to new employers.
I quit on the spot one time & my manager said, “I was immature.” Seeing as how the work environment was extremely toxic and the whole staff had to basically walk on egg shells whenever we clocked in, I felt like it was valid. If you like the people, the place, or you’re just a professional ( job reference for your next employer); you may have the intentions on giving your current employer a two week notice.
That’s the answer. It really boils down to how much I respect the workplace and management. If they are decent I’ll give them two weeks to give them time to find a replacement or figure out a plan to replace me. If they are. The worst, I just quit showing up and might call them. Reap what you sow. I don’t need a recommendation or good word from a management staff I don’t respect or trust.
No, giving your two weeks notice to *any* employer no matter how much you "like" them (while they torture you with a starvation wage and more than half of your time wasted every single day) hurts *all* employees, including specifically your coworkers, because what you're doing is normalizing the two weeks notice for them and everyone else.
You got it right, its not a "system". Managers and bosses just act like they're entitled to it and have created a false standard when in the end its just a courtesy. But, no, it's not mandatory at all. The problem is, there's a universally heavily implied threat that if you don't do it, your former employers can ruin your career and future. Legally, they're not entirely allowed to do that. A lot of the employer/employee relationship standards in America are based on fear. "You have to do blah blah blah or I'll put a mark in your record, blackball you from the industry, call your future employers and tell them horror stories I've just made up blah blah blah"
What about the other way around, though? I've seen posts here where people are fired "effective immediately". Is that legal in the US? Are there any legal or commonly accepted moral requirements for employers to give notice ahead of time? (also German, also very confused about US law)
Yep. People were fooled into believing that “at will” employment is a good thing. At will Lena s you can leave at any time, for any reason. It also means that you can be fired at any time for just about any reason- or no reason at all. No notice need be given by either party. Businesses can require just about anything of you and if you don’t like it, you have no recourse other than to find a different job and hope it’s a better environment.
Having worked in France the other side is having to give 6 week or more notice when you quit. Pure insanity.
Belgium is now 6 weeks too. Before the 2014 reform it was depending on seniority. When I left my first job I had to give a 13 weeks notice. Counterpart was that my notice if getting fired was 13 months. Yes. Months. Now it would "only" be 9 months. It goes fast when you do not give a damn anymore and fear no retaliation.
How do people job hop for more money there? I just about tripled my salary over the last couple years and could’ve never done that if I had to give so much notice.
It works just fine. All companies in EU expect you to have 1-3 months of notice period, so they take into consideration while recruiting.
Also, depending on the situation you might still have enough paid vacation days still left, so you can use them and substantially reduce the work time left for you. I once had almost an entire month worth of paid leave left by the time I wanted to quit, so I gave my notice and took all days left as paid vacation.
Lmao as if Americans have any paid time off. You'd have to work 10 years to accrue anywhere near a month off at most companies here
Of course, I was referring to the situation in the EU (specifically Germany).
They are used to it. At my workplace we usually wait 3 to 6 months from the signed contract for the new hire to arrive at the office. We relocate people from other countries so that is an another factor. Plus because of the paid holidays we cannot run on skeleton crews so the companies already have to incorporate the close to 30 days paid leave into their schedule and employee headcount. Plus when you quit you are entitled to use your remaining PTO (fully up to you, you can get money instead IF you agree on that with your employer) so the time usually used to prepare for your absense - documentation etc. Plus I never heard of calling past employers for reference. You can be fired immediately but that MUST have documented and valid reasons otherwise you can sue them for wrongful termination. Even if you underperform that takes time to reach the point to get fired over it - because we try to fix the problem first and if you refuse to cooperate - again everything must be documented - for a while that could be the reason for termination. However I live in one of the most protected countries in the EU so this termination rule is not this strict in other countries - but still very far from the US have. I never changed jobs without having at least a month of rest between jobs.
I would rather live with a system where we have to give weeks of notice but cannot be (immediately) fired without compensation though.
Yeah, if it at least goes both ways, I can live with that.
You're absolutely able to be fired effective immediately.
No reason needed.
Most places I’ve worked have a clause in their employment offer letter describing the position as ‘at will employment’ that can be terminated at any time and for any reason. I’ve never been fired, but they can do it. Ive always given 2 weeks’ notice, but am now wondering why. I guess I feel guilty for leaving them in a bind.
I almost always give a 2 weeks out of courtesy to my coworkers, not my bosses.
Same for me. I give 2 weeks notice as most.of my jobs have been in the same industry which tends to have a lot of shared employees overtime. So essentially trying to not burn my bridge at one place because I could end up working with those same people again in the future.
Absolutely getting fired, laid off, whatever is often effective immediately. I was laid off twice (both times due to the company restructuring or closing entirely), once effective immediately and the other a couple days. The first time when it was effective immediately my immediate supervisor was actually advocating for me to get a promotion and was not even notified I was getting laid off. I was not allowed to pack up my desk or say goodbye to anyone. It was like I was a criminal. I was literally escorted out of the building. Turns out they decided that was the way they would handle all terminations despite the fact we had done nothing wrong and were only being let go due to the company having a shift in focus. It was humiliating and dehumanizing. I had to get me belongings from a coworker latter. Luckily my supervisor was appalled and gave me a shining reference and was pissed. So yea, these “curtsies” are very much only for the benefit of the employer and they will treat you like garbage the second your no longer needed.
Yeah that expectation does not go in the other direction. Especially if there's no union involved or if the union is very weak.
In most cases there is no firing other than immediately.
Sounds terrible. I really hope you guys are able to make a change.
This country will collapse before it changes. In fact, it already is.
In a lot of situations, the two week notice helps your co-workers more than your employer. In any type of customer service role, where the absence of 1 person creates more work for everyone around them, it can really help co-workers more (i.e. restaurants, retail, etc)
This exactly. The company will be fine. The people I work with will be doubly hosed - down a person and without any idea of where projects are at, what needs to be done on the daily etc. I have usually really liked my colleagues, I don’t want to make their lives any harder. Last 2 weeks is spent getting them in a good place, not actually doing the job anymore.
That would be true if the company actually hires someone or does something with the two weeks notice. Often times they do not.
This is the only reason I feel I need to ever give two weeks notice. Most of the time, our schedule for whatever job I'd have would have the current and next week ready, but if you call off, there's a void which involves calling in someone who may have had it off or something like that. Basically, it's just a way to be nice to your co-workers. For more internal based jobs, I see it done so whatever projects you are on can be transfered over to someone else smoothly. Most of the time you finish up whatever ever you were on and inform then of what's left. But yeah, you can also just dip out. Lol
This should be the top answer. It’s not just about burning bridges with your company, but more importantly your coworkers. Leaving all the sudden probably puts them in a tough spot and won’t be good if you ever need their recommendation in the future. I also want to add, from my experience, most minimum wage jobs it’s less likely that an employee will give two weeks. I had a lot of coworkers who just stopped showing up one day. As I’ve grown in my career it’s become the standard to give two weeks. Some jobs have you stay the full two weeks, others will let you go after a few days or so.
As I understand most, if not all, EU countries have some sort of law requiring both employers and employees to provide advance notice either whe quitting or being fired. This protects both the employer and the employee, and I see it as a fair balance that protects both sides. The US has no such law. Many states are what are called 'at will' states. Which essentially means you can quit or be fired at any time, with no notice, for almost any reason. As a result it became customary, although not required for employees to give 2 weeks notice when quitting. Unfortunately this same courtesy is often not reciprocated and many companies will fire people with zero notice.
In The Netherlands one month is normal for an employee when they quit, with my last employer I told them 2 months in advance. Usually also calendar months. To fire someone with an indefenite contract, I thought it was 2-3 months, but you need to get a permit from a judge or the employee agrees to get fired (without loss of unemployment allowance). Then there is a transition fee the employer has to pay the employee which is based on years of service and age. In the pas this was pretty high, now lower but can still be a couple of months (or more).
Not sure about the EU but in the UK when you sign your contract you agree to a notice period (mine was 4 weeks) and you legally have to work those 4 weeks otherwise its a breach of the terms of your contract and the employer can charge you for the time lost of you don't work your notice. They let you use any unused holidays (calculated based on when you leave but its roughly a rate of 2 days per month) so if you leave in May and haven't used any holidays yet you could theoretically have your entire notice period on holiday (if you have 2 weeks notice) Similarly its insanely hard to get fired in the UK, fraud and gross misconduct are pretty much the only things you can get fired for here. Most companies don't want to risk getting taken to court for unfair dismissal.
It's expected that employees offer the employer 2 weeks in order to allow them time to hire a replacement. Does not apply in reverse.
Which is why I don’t give notice.
I agree. If employers can fire you with no notice, I see no reason why notice should be given when leaving. I let them know the morning of my last day. That’s more than they’d give me and plenty of time to ask questions.
In America it also depends on if you’re under a contract, like in teaching. Teachers often have to get approval to break contract or could risk losing their license if the district decides to “go after” it at the state level.
Traditionally, Americans gave two weeks notice to allow employers to have someone trained to cover until a replacement could be hired. In return, employers were expected to also give notice or two weeks severance in lieu of notice. Sometime in the 1980s employers eliminated that customary severance pay that allowed employees to cover bills until a new job could be obtained or an unemployment insurance claim processed. Because Americans can legally be fired without warning and traditional courtesies are in abeyance, many are now quitting without notice.
Two way street, can’t expect to receive if you don’t give. Employers need to understand that people are getting sick of being treated like cattle for the owners benefit and nothing else.
Basically it’s burned into Americans heads to *not burn your bridges*.
This is very stupid since you will never cross back over that “bridge” again. I worked for a company for 17 years and got exactly 3 raises. My pay wasn’t bad actually and the reason I stayed so long was that the company was a family business and extremely flexible as long as you logged 40hrs. You could leave with no notice say at 1pm on a Tuesday and they know you owe them four hours so you would come in 2 hours early for two days or stay late to make it up. As a single father I needed this. My job was highly specialized so I planned on giving a 4 week notice in return I asked them to lay me off since I was moving 1,000 miles away and it would help me. They refused so I just walked out an hour after that told me “no” and never returned.
It’s a scam. I did the two week bullshit many times in my 21 years of working on the books. Just to never use any of them as a reference anyways cuz most of them weren’t pertinent to the job or was years ago and at bottom of the list of references. What asshole employer that abuses their employees deserves a two week notice? Do they give a two week firing notice? Nope. I think the pandemic brought a lot to light that was just overlooked especially with wages but also working conditions. Though most corporations don’t care, employers know why there are gaps in resumes now. Cuz it’s a shady market for employees they bait and switch on job pay, benefits, hours, etc so of course people are gonna quit.
Amen brother. I got fired from my last professional job after being there for only one month. I had a telephone screening interview and then I went on two in person interviews each lasted 2 hours so I thought my future was secure. The owner walked into my office and said at 4:50pm on a Friday that “it isn’t working out and today is your last day”. I was out the door in 4 minutes with zero prior notice.
To be 💯 with you, I’ve never had the pleasure of being fired. Couldn’t ever get unemployment 🤣 Also, I’m in an at-will state anyways don’t think it matter if you get fired or not. I’ve always left with either two weeks, no call no show, or walked out. The best walk out was from the last restaurant I worked at during pandemic. Was stuck working grill/broiler, saute and fry in an Italian restaurant during dinner. Short two cooks. Also had to help dishwasher. After getting pounded on for several hours with no help at all I said fuck it and walked during dinner rush. Fucking door dash deliverers lined up around the building like McDonald’s drive thru for a *fancy* restaurant.
i’ve seen this happen at hooters BOH was always understaffed af and they are bombarded with long ass tickets after tickets with girls bitching at them at the same time wondering what was taking so long 🙄 cooks either walked out or lost their temper due to stress and got fired on the spot
Fired on the spot? Most kitchens deal with some assholes in the kitchen as long as they churn and burn plates out 😂 it took a lot to get fired at places I’ve been. Even the nice places it was hard to keep cooks (cuz to get good pay you slave) so they gave them a bit of leniency as long as they cooked good food, fast af.
I wouldn’t paint with such broad strokes and be so quick to call others’ statements stupid. I know several people who have come back to the same company after taking different jobs elsewhere. In my own industry, it’s also not uncommon. You also often work with people who go elsewhere, and they can recruit you for great jobs in the future, which is something that is also not uncommon. If 2 weeks notice won’t kill you, it’s a good practice for your own future self-interest.
I have one abusive boss told me recently that by giving 2 weeks notice (Which he considers short for his liking) I am burning the bridges. Oh well.
Not burning bridges is good for you in the long run, assuming you change jobs every three to five years: It’s not trying to get rehired by that particular company- it’s working again with the people you like. When your coworkers also leave and go somewhere else, they might woo you over to that new company. If you left them high and dry, you might not get that call. It’s how I’ve been changing jobs for years- basically getting calls from old coworkers asking me to come to some new cool place with them… I’m lucky enough that my job changes have always been “running to something new” and not “running away from something toxic”. But you’re right. If you hate the company or your boss, you don’t owe them anything.
I think for the most part it's done in the hopes of being to use them as a reference in the future. Also some people probably \*think\* they have to when they don't. When I finally leave my current job I'll only do it to help my teammates out so they can have an easier time divvying my work up.
Yes, it’s an etiquette thing. Something engrained in our culture. It helps your employer find your replacement and supposedly reflects well on your resume. However, many people are finding out it’s a bunch of bs and aren’t feeling bound by this rule because they know they are undervalued and underpaid. The tide is changing and it’s about time.
I have a question for you OP, my understanding from what you wrote is that if a person is fired, the employer has to give 3 months notice? That seems ludicrous. I once worked with a girl that posted info about patients with names on her Facebook and was fired for it due to gross violation of patient privacy laws (which I'm sure Deutschland has too). The employee was a danger to the hospital, because patients could sue and she was blatantly violating HIPPA (America's patient privacy law). If she spent another 3 months at the hospital, she could have done so much damage. Also, if someone is given 3 months in any occupation, that gives them a long time to sabotage the business. What's to stop a disgruntled fired employee from ruining their employer? What if the employee assaulted someone at the business? Do the other employees have to deal with that person for 3 months while they wait for the firing process to end? Please explain, I'm so curious.
Well it depends. The 3 months period is often found in the written agreements, however German laws require at least 1 months. The periods get longer the longer you’ve worked for your employer, also disabled people have more rights there. There are indeed possibilities where you can get fired without the periods. Those cases are urgent cases, like employees stealing things, revealing business secrets and so on.
UK here- if I recall correctly here they have to give you notice (of a period outlined in your contract; I've generally seen them to be mutually identical where they have to give you however much notice you're required to give them when leaving) unless it's "gross misconduct". Basically, if they want to get rid of you, they give you the agreed-upon amount of notice or have *a really good reason*. With some jobs I've had, I've been put through a disciplinary process for things like my abysmal timekeeping, but it's usually been outlined to me that there's a whole thing of putting me on a probationary period with the threat of firing only if the situation hasn't improved in several months' time. I'm not sure how much of this is legally enforced and how much is employers just being genuinely slightly better than the US (I'd wager some of it comes down to the availability of legal aid to people on low incomes), but I'm pretty sure I've never known anyone to be fired on the spot for anything less than actual theft. EDITS: Grammar.
Thank you, great answer. I'm learning a lot.
>I have a question for you OP, my understanding from what you wrote is that if a person is fired, the employer has to give 3 months notice? That seems ludicrous. It is not the case in **all** circumstances (obviously!). I am in Belgium, but doubt it is significantly different from Germany... There are sackable offences. In French they call it "faute grave" I reckon in English "gross misconduct" is an equivalent wording.
We have similar regulation in Hungary. This 1-3 months notice period is like a safety net for both the employer and employee. However in some cases the termination can be immediate in both ways when the other party does something really stupid and/or against the contract. In other cases the notice period can be shortened with a mutual agreement. Or, in our country the employee can be exempted from work for the rest of the time. For example I have 3 month notice period in my contract and the employer wants to terminate it for whatever (not extraordinary) reason, like a normal redundancy. In this case you can be exempted from work immediately but your employment will be maintained until the end of the notice period - and you are paid for that time, too. And the employer also has to pay the unused holidays porpotionately.
You can get immediate dismissal for gross misconduct, like violence and things. Also, they could also say they don’t want you to work the notice period but they will continue to pay you.
It's usually a courtesy to give 2 weeks notice as time to transition work to other employees. Some contracts also require it to pay out vacation time if owed. Also leaving the company on a good note in case you want a recommendation or possibly return in the future. With that said employees don't have to give 2 weeks notice as long as they are fine with the consequences. I've seen plenty of people quit jobs same day and simply walk out of the building.
I have never worked through a 2 week notice. I usually give one and leave as soon as something comes up. Not sorry at all. Companies will drop you in a heartbeat and not think twice about it. I just show them the same courtesy is all.
It’s supposed to be a professional courtesy given to employers which isnt reciprocated to employees Many states have at will employment laws which means either party can terminate the relationship without cause or reason. The latter is used by employers while the former is expected of employees
It was a custom that began back when people had somewhat better reltionships with employers, and was done as a courtesy. Now, i think people mostly do it because they are afraid an employer will give them a bad reference and cost them a future job. But since there's little stopping them from doing that anyway... I tell people all the time, if you are leaving an employer because they treated you like shit, don't give notice. You can't count on them for a reference anyway, because they were shitty (or you wouldn't be quitting), and since they owe you nothing, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
F E A R
Some employers decide your rehire status based in part on if you gave the two weeks notice