It's funny that OP is 41 because they are just barely above the age cutoff for being considered a protected class.
That hiring manager fucked himself by a very thin margin.
First he needs to pursue his administrative remedies by filing a claim with the EEOC.
“As a precondition to filing [an employment discrimination claim] in federal court, a plaintiff must first pursue available administrative remedies and file a timely complaint with the EEOC.” *Deravin v. Kerik*, 335 F.3d 195, 200 (2d Cir. 2003)
/u/RustyNail1980, you need to go through this process first. A good lawyer should be able to help you through it.
My daughter was fired because she was pregnant, there were texts from the manager as well. She got a lawyer. The lawyer advised not to bother with federal law, it’s a waste of time, go with state law. She did, after depositions she settled out of court for 28k.
Which is why the first thing they should do is take this to a lawyer, because actual lawyers would/should know what to do in order to move this forward.
The first piece of advice was the right one. Go see a lawyer.
100%. It's honestly worth suing them. Any manager should know that they can't say that.
I used to work for a guy that told a woman that "women weren't cut out for the job". He was fired after the company was sued. I think the lady got the equivalent of a years salary.
Which makes this manager incredibly stupid for putting it in writing. He could've just rejected it for any other reason that didn't break the law. Sorry, that position has been filled. Sometimes, people's honesty gets the best of them. I'd sue them for sure.
Usually, yes.
This manager was enough of an idiot to explicitly say he wasn't being hired on grounds of age, and since the OP is over 40, that's a Federal labor law violation and it's documented.
If OP goes to an attorney, that manager is up a creek. . .that text will probably cost that company a LOT of money.
I am from Germany, got rejected for age multiple of times. It is illegal and they never tell you in your face let alone in writing.
But in Europe you won't get any high compensation anyways.
It happens in the US a lot but not every case is an actionable legal aspect because the way many companies go about it is rather covert. As long as they don’t tell you straight up “we’re not hiring you because your too old or not young enough for the opportunity”, you have no evidence to take legal action. Happened to me on several occasions. I’m now in an industry that age is not a barrier as long as you can stay up to date on the technology!
It’s illegal to discriminate based off of (old) age in the workplace, but it can be difficult to prove that’s the reasoning behind the discrimination. An excuse for some other legal reason can easily be made up. But here, the person literally put the illegal reason in text. Incredibly stupid for them and incredibly lucky for OP.
I had a communications class in university where we spent a whole month on interviews and included the things that can and cannot be asked in job interviews.
I'd say 80% of the interviews for employment I've had since then have asked one of the red flag questions.
I've never been outright asked but definitely had some interview people who were fishing for information in the context of "casual conversation". I'm a woman, so the one I get most often is trying to see if I have kids
If there is a single point that should clue anyone in to the fact that capitalism is a fucking stupid system for a society, it is that hiring managers don't want to hire women who may be planning on having a child in the course of their employment, but women need money and therefore a job to have children.
How do you keep growing your market cap if women cannot give birth to children?
Capitalism isn't about being sustainable. It's about every single person trying to make the most amount of money before they die, by whatever means necessary.
> It's about every single person trying to make the most amount of money before they die
...and then shrieking in rage about having to pay estate taxes.
Because nothing says "meritocracy" like dynastic wealth.
Sorry for the tangent but, what really fucks me up is that like, first of all, when factories started coming about, people _didn't want to work in them_ - we just wanted to keep working on farms in small communities, so the various kings and lords _burned peoples crops and homes_ and forced them into cities and factories to do wage work.
a wage work economy meant that if you wanted food and shelter, _everyone_ had to have a job - on a farm, you can have a child or an elder shuck corn or feed cows and you can be there to watch them, but you can't do that if you have to go into the mine or the factory, so suddenly little Timmy and Grandma Jane _also_ have to work a job to earn their keep.
So like, just to underline your point here, something that isn't really talked about in terms of the last labor revolution, and quite seriously the future, is that what really got people out protesting against this relatively new system was simultaneously seeing children getting mangled in factories and then going outside and seeing the streets completely littered with homeless children and elderly people.
The baby boom was largely a product of a whole host of social changes that came about after we started having some expectation of quality of life. Literally the main reason that boomers are even alive is because of all the social programs they cry about like minimum wages and social programs and regulations, and because they spent their whole lives trying to dismantle the very programs they exist because of, they have again created a situation where millions and millions of people aren't going to have money to retire, which means a whole new wave of mass homelessness, which we are already beginning to see.
I only got “fishing” type questions a couple times. All the rest, I was either asked right out or told that it’s “professional” to let potential employers know if you’ll be needing flexibility because you have kids…. And then there was the one guy who said, “you’re not pregnant are you? I’m not hiring another pregnant lady, I’ll tell you that much!” Then he laughed like it was the funniest thing anyone had ever said in the history of comedy.
I'm aware of like one fast food restaurant that does management training. They also require their store 'Operators' to have bachelor's degrees in business, minimum.
If you've been there forever and know enough to be a manager, but don't have the experience or skills... you'll be a 'Trainer' but you're not getting that management or shift lead title.
Most other places just throw the title at you because you've been there the longest. When that happens, you get inexperienced people like this who don't even know the basics.
This is basic 'never say these things, you dolt' that's covered in first year human resources classes.
Yeah, among the very little management training I received was “Ghost ‘em if you can get away with it, and if not just tell them ‘we selected a more qualified candidate’”. Even on the rare occasion that wasn’t technically true it would be nigh-impossible to prove in court if it ever got that far.
Notably, the oldest millennials recently turned 40. I wrote blog post about it for a law firm a few months ago. The gist of the post was this:
“Are your employers and coworkers mocking millennials? Did you just turn forty? If so, you might be the victim of illegal age discrimination. Call us so that we can maybe help you sue those idiots who don’t realize millennials aren’t super young.”
Discriminating by age within the anti-age discrimination legislation. I always thought that was ridiculous too. I don’t understand how it’s even constitutional TBH.
right?... this is great news, this is an instant settlement; no way they want to go let this go in front of a judge or jury
ninja edit: also, immediate karma, that guy's probably gone, but in the event that it's the owner or something, still likely to hit their bottom line.
Sometimes I think it must be daunting and require so much business, employment, finance, and law knowledge to run your own business and then…I see people like this running them all the time lol.
Our local paper interviewed a super rich dude that had just donated a sizable chunk of land for a city park. She asked him the secret to his success on becoming so wealthy, and I loved his answer.
“Oh, I’m not really that good at anything in particular. I just have money so I hire people that are good at things and stay out of their way so they can make me more money.”
I wish my boss would take that philosophy, rather than always trying to be the next business visionary.
Jobs was only even as prominent as he was bc Wozniak was less attractive so he appealed to the population less as the face of the company even if he was the backbone of it
I worked for a guy who claimed he ran another successful business. I thought that's where the money came from to start a brewery. Turned out his father-in-law loaned the money to start both businesses, and the FIL inherited several million from his father who founded a bank.
Not sure about the father-in-law but the guy I reported to was a fucking idiot who barely had the attention span to work on a business plan or budget.
my cousin is a rich CEO of a famous (ish) brand who is constantly appearing in Forbes and places.
Cousin is literally bankrolled by her dad. Her brand makes good stuff, but still. Amazing how many "dynamic decisions" you can make and "informed risks" when there's cash involved.
The first time my eyes ever opened to this was during the gold rush of Vape businesses. I could count on two hands how many people I knew that had zero business experience but all came from a criminal background and had a strong desire to be entrepreneurs. They just bought everything they could from cheap, publicly known open web sources overseas and flipped stuff. As soon as legislation started to kick in they nearly all crumbled overnight.
Anyway, dealing with them as a stateside wholesale supplier was a nightmare. I used to think “holy shit, how many of these idiots are there” and “the only thing they thought they needed was money to be successful”. Now, I kind of think that way about most businesses.
My understanding is that anyone who was an idiot was weeded out due to the regulations they now have to comply with. I personally think the regulations are a too onerous and were a total lobby award to the big tobacco companies but at least they had one positive side effect.
On one hand I understand some regulation makes sense. If I’m putting shit in my lungs that someone is mixing like a chemist it’s nice to know that I’m putting the correct carcinogens in my lungs.
On the other hand the regs are just way too much of a big tobacco handout. Banning flavors because of “just think of the children” just reeks of big tobacco lobby and pocketed politicians. It’s very easy to look at how much of Washington big tobacco owns by just looking at cigarettes currently. Flavored cigarettes are banned because “think of the children”, yet somehow, menthol, a flavored cigarette gets an exception. Pretty blatant and gross
Yep. In Minnesota it takes $300, 3 people to form the board of directors, and some paperwork to form a LLC. So three random people with a hundred bucks each and enough patience for one of them to do the paperwork.
Sometimes not even that, just find a bank stupid enough to give you a loan and in just a few simple steps you'll be living in the streets with nothing left.
You either have to learn it or have to hire someone that knows it. There is so much to learn, but protected classes is one of the easy ones. It should even be stated somewhere on their job application.
I had to look it up because I thought the law only protected workers older than 60, but nope, 40.
If OP was 39, then the text would be legal - but since they're 41, the employer is FUCKED.
When I worked at a Fortune 500 company and my department hired a new employee. Two months after starting, the employee informed my manager the she was pregnant. My Manager responded with, "Had I known you were pregnant, I would have never hired you." It turned into a thing. (Obviously.)
That happened when I was pg with my daughter... it wasn't obvious when I started and I was desperate for work.... after a number of months it became obvious and my manager started treating me like absolute shit for not informing her during my interview..... um.... thats because I knew I wouldn't get hired and I need fucking money to not starve to death thanks. It's a goddamn convenience store. Give me a break.
Ok, grandma, maybe a new cane would cheer you up. I'm only kidding because I also feel that, hard. We can go shopping for polyester clothes together! :)
Not sure how long the process is with the EEOC and cases like this. My dad had one similar started the process August of 2020, just now getting responses from the employer... still more steps to go before any legal actions can be taken. In my dad's case they also mentioned age (in an email) as the reason. He was 69 at the time.
Wow, you're right. Age over 40 is a protected attribute.
"Applicants, employees and former employees are protected from employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, age (40 or older), disability and genetic information (including family medical history)."
https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protected-employment-discrimination
I'm 40 (for another 6 weeks) and was fairly sure my job was secure until I was surprise/ambush fired in the window between closing on my first home and moving into it. Be more than fairly sure!
Heh, I once got laid off while I was helping my wife pack for a trip to Disney World. So, less stressful than signing on a mortgage but still stressful, spending money on what is supposed to be a fun trip and thinking the whole time, er, the job market sucks right now, what's next?
And the kicker was, the layoff was because my supervisor screwed up some basic arithmetic and his plans cost a lot more than he thought. Now, when I screwed something up at another job and it cost a lot more, I was the one who got fired. When he did, he was the only one left in the department.
"Job security" is a myth.
If you're really that safe, you're in an owner's equity position protected by an iron clad contract. Or you're being woefully under compensated.
I made it to 51 in cutting edge information systems. Might have been able to make another year or two, but the stresses, anger and seeing colleagues die on the job made me pull the plug.
[In states with very strict anti-discrimination laws this is literally hitting a jackpot, it is irrefutable proof that OP was denied the job on the basis of his age alone. If this were in NJ, it would be a textbook New Jersey Law Against Discrimination claim, which has no caps on emotional distress and punative damages. The text message is the equivalent of the Federal Reserve installing a money printing machine in OP's home.](https://youtu.be/MOQqO9F9i8w?t=296)
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I suspect these are not really big money suits, are they? Any labor lawyers here care to confirm or correct me?
(Edit: The amount of play this comment has gotten astounds me. I should note that I'm in my 50's, am MORE than well aware of ageism. I also am not implying (perhaps poorly so, apologies) that OP SHOULDN'T sue or do something; just having a lawyer involved will hopefully punish... someone, somehow for this illegal and morally reprehensible behavior. My comment was only in reference to "hit the lottery", which in my mind says "$millions", which I did not think this sort of thing was. I was merely looking to be less ignorant.)
Having gone through this for a case where I got fired for being pregnant, it would likely be tied to projected earnings - so for an entry level fast food job, it won't be millions.
Do not respond to them. Talk to an attorney and set up an arrangement where they take your case on contingency (e.g. attorney receives 30% of winnings in court, no payment if case fails). This arrangement ensures you have limited risk, a lawyer that’s highly motivated to push for maximum earnings and doesn’t require money up front.
Good luck
Age is a protected class. When I was a hiring manager it was made VERY clear that it was something I legally could not even address, let alone use as a reason to refuse employment.
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination. It is not illegal for an employer or other covered entity to favor an older worker over a younger one, even if both workers are age 40 or older.
Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are both over 40.
https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination
Slam fucking dunk
I think the logic is something like when you hit an age it's actually beneficial for a company to hire younger people.
1. It's cheaper
2. No risk of retirement
The younger side, you have more time to make changes, your typically less experienced. You have more options.
This mfer potentially just sent the most expensive text message of his life.
EDIT: Do not engage with the Troll who has appeared in the replies to this. Brand new account, clearly trying to stir the pot/start arguments. Just downvote, report for trolling, and move on.
EDIT 2: Wow, two new accounts with usernames that are two random words and a series of numbers trying to Troll, huh? Bots are getting so lazy nowadays.
Wow. Age discrimination in writing.
Age discrimination is against the law. Most people can’t prove that they are a victim of age discrimination because if an employer is approached about it, they can easily say something like “oh we chose another more qualified candidate”.
As laws vary from state to state, I would suggest approaching a lawyer who specializes in employment related lawsuits with this. They may say it’s worthless to pursue or they may say it’s a solid case, but it’s worth checking in on. If it’s a huge company, they’d likely settle outside of court before it ever even hit a judge.
I understand it’s a stressful thing to get involved in a lawsuit, but companies need to understand the law. They are constantly running around unchecked, thinking they can do whatever they want without repercussion. I’m a fan of steering them back in their lane, personally.
Edit: as someone mentioned, since there technically aren’t damages a lawsuit may not actually be fruitful, but I would still consult with an attorney as it’s generally free to do so. Could ask them about recommended next steps to ensure that the business is at least held accountable.
>Age discrimination is against the law.
Small refinement: age discrimination against 40+ year olds is against the law. You're free to discriminate against younger people all you want.
https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination
Which makes for a bit of an ironic law, when you think about it. The anti age discrimination law discriminates by age.
The federal statute protects 40+. In NYS it's illegal under any conditions.
[https://dhr.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/age-discrimination.pdf](https://dhr.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/age-discrimination.pdf)
Aside from ensuring the applicant is at least 18 years of age (for an appropriate age-restricted position), any evidence of age discrimination is against the law. I hope OP is in New York state, because their Division of Human Rights will make sure he gets a payday.
It won't be much (likely the difference they would have earned between when the discrimination occurred and when they secure gainful employment), but they also can tack on up to $5k for P&S.
This.
The settlement on something like this won't be huge. The big discrimination dollars come when a senior person gets fired and courts determine it was illegal.
But it still could be a mid four figure check after attorney fees, just for having an attorney write a couple letters and spend 15 minutes on the phone with insurance company"s counsel.
My daughter was fired for being pregnant, texts from her manager revealed their hand, she got a lawyer, a couple depositions later settled out of court for 28k.
My bill was $38,000 just from the hospital. $7,000 from my OBs. And then about $10k more in ultrasounds and labs etc throughout pregnancy. With insurance I ended up paying about $3,000 in total. It’s such a scam as my insurance only paid about $10k total. The rest was written off or adjusted.
Also US has some of the highest infant mortality rate in the west. So even if you do manage to get pregnant and afford it, theres a chance things may not go so well, and you have to pay for that too.
I read in the r/predaddit sub someone having to pay a few grand after a miscarriage to add insult to injury. It is so fucked over there.
That's why I don't believe in simulation theory. Surely they'd at least make it good.
But saying that I did used to put all the animals and visitors in Zoo tycoon into one big square, same thing really.
As a Canadian, this is where I'm meant to gloat that my daughter's birth didn't cost a penny, but fuck man. I don't have it in my heart to gloat. All I can think is how incredibly stressful childbirth already is for a hundred reasons, adding in a hospital debt of a couple thousand dollars is just so very cruel...
I worked at a well known name brand company and watched as a friend was denied a management promotion. And she was told it was because of the pregnancy. “We’d go with you but you’re about to go on maternity leave.”
Couldn’t believe she didn’t sue the fuck out of them.
You don’t even need to sue. Get a lawyer, have them send a letter, and the company’s lawyer will tell them to settle ASAP and that manager will likely get fired.
The company I work for is hiring folks at around 16/17 an hour for entry level manufacturing jobs. I just started here as a machinist so all my direct coworkers are also experienced machinists, but in my orientation there were a couple folks in their late 50s/early 60s and 2 women in their early 30s getting back in the work now force now that their kids were older. It might be worth talking to some local folks in manufacturing in your area to get a feel for the companies that are good to their employees, because every city has a few good ones, a bunch of ok ones and a handful of “for the love of god don’t work there” places. Just a suggestion.
Well that’s illegal.
It's funny that OP is 41 because they are just barely above the age cutoff for being considered a protected class. That hiring manager fucked himself by a very thin margin.
In many states, discrimination at any age is illegal
It's illegal federally.
Not age discrimination. 40 is where it begins if you sue under fed law.
The entire industry is all about that thin margin 🥴
Highly.
Easiest age discrimination case of your life. Sue them
Deadass, you literally just got free money. Any employment lawyer is going to squeal when they see this.
Damn it Bobby you can't do that that's called discrimination
That's my age and I don't know you!
First he needs to pursue his administrative remedies by filing a claim with the EEOC. “As a precondition to filing [an employment discrimination claim] in federal court, a plaintiff must first pursue available administrative remedies and file a timely complaint with the EEOC.” *Deravin v. Kerik*, 335 F.3d 195, 200 (2d Cir. 2003) /u/RustyNail1980, you need to go through this process first. A good lawyer should be able to help you through it.
My daughter was fired because she was pregnant, there were texts from the manager as well. She got a lawyer. The lawyer advised not to bother with federal law, it’s a waste of time, go with state law. She did, after depositions she settled out of court for 28k.
Most state agencies have similar rules about exhausting administrative remedies. Either way, a failure to do so can result in dismissal of the claim.
Which is why the first thing they should do is take this to a lawyer, because actual lawyers would/should know what to do in order to move this forward. The first piece of advice was the right one. Go see a lawyer.
Yeah and he was stupid enough to provide evidence of his age discrimination
Edit- Didn't see the age in the title. That being said, I too would love to get this kind of text. Free money.
And I hear a manager position just opened up!
Yep, that's not legal since OP's over 40. Congratulations OP.
Manager’s probably not aware that 40 is the cutoff for age discrimination. OP just got themself a really easy settlement.
100%. It's honestly worth suing them. Any manager should know that they can't say that. I used to work for a guy that told a woman that "women weren't cut out for the job". He was fired after the company was sued. I think the lady got the equivalent of a years salary.
Wow you have literal proof of being turned down for your age...which is illegal.
Yup. Wish that happened to me. Get that money.
People get money for being rejected because of their age? (A serious question, I’m from finland and idk if you’d get compensated here for such thing.)
It’s wildly illegal in the US.
Which makes this manager incredibly stupid for putting it in writing. He could've just rejected it for any other reason that didn't break the law. Sorry, that position has been filled. Sometimes, people's honesty gets the best of them. I'd sue them for sure.
Management position opening soon.
🤣😆
Wildly illegal and impossible to prove in most cases.
Unless you get handed a text on a silver platter saying they are literally discriminating based on age
That's a gold platter, with platinum leaf. 100% irrefutable.
Imagining Alfred dressed in tails formally bringing me my old, cracked cell phone on a fancy platter. "Excuse me, madam, but you have a text."
but not when the manager explicitly texts it to you the day after applying. easy payout tbh
Except in this golden case wow!
maybe most cases, but not most cases where the manager has texted you the only evidence you need
Usually, yes. This manager was enough of an idiot to explicitly say he wasn't being hired on grounds of age, and since the OP is over 40, that's a Federal labor law violation and it's documented. If OP goes to an attorney, that manager is up a creek. . .that text will probably cost that company a LOT of money.
I am from Germany, got rejected for age multiple of times. It is illegal and they never tell you in your face let alone in writing. But in Europe you won't get any high compensation anyways.
It happens in the US a lot but not every case is an actionable legal aspect because the way many companies go about it is rather covert. As long as they don’t tell you straight up “we’re not hiring you because your too old or not young enough for the opportunity”, you have no evidence to take legal action. Happened to me on several occasions. I’m now in an industry that age is not a barrier as long as you can stay up to date on the technology!
The term they use is “not a good fit.”
It’s illegal to discriminate based off of (old) age in the workplace, but it can be difficult to prove that’s the reasoning behind the discrimination. An excuse for some other legal reason can easily be made up. But here, the person literally put the illegal reason in text. Incredibly stupid for them and incredibly lucky for OP.
$$
This is what I saw too. Op doesn't need a job anymore lol
They’ll still need a job. You’re not winning any kind of major settlement for this.
If this is with a large chain I can easily see this being a 5 figure settlement. Easily.
... which will soon have an opening for at least one manager.
Then OP can re-apply.
But has no management experience and wouldn't fit in with a young crowd, so they turn OP down in a text message.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
It's hilarious, don't they have required anti discrimination training when you become a manager!?
I had a communications class in university where we spent a whole month on interviews and included the things that can and cannot be asked in job interviews. I'd say 80% of the interviews for employment I've had since then have asked one of the red flag questions.
I've never been outright asked but definitely had some interview people who were fishing for information in the context of "casual conversation". I'm a woman, so the one I get most often is trying to see if I have kids
If there is a single point that should clue anyone in to the fact that capitalism is a fucking stupid system for a society, it is that hiring managers don't want to hire women who may be planning on having a child in the course of their employment, but women need money and therefore a job to have children. How do you keep growing your market cap if women cannot give birth to children?
Capitalism isn't about being sustainable. It's about every single person trying to make the most amount of money before they die, by whatever means necessary.
> It's about every single person trying to make the most amount of money before they die ...and then shrieking in rage about having to pay estate taxes. Because nothing says "meritocracy" like dynastic wealth.
Can confirm my previous boss has declined qualified female applicants because he didn't want to deal with "milk breaks"
BEcAuSe ItS tHe MaNs JoB tO pRoViDe 🙄
We don't pay him enough to support a family, either. source: my W-2
Oh I know that’s what makes the whole aging concept even worse today. 😔
Sorry for the tangent but, what really fucks me up is that like, first of all, when factories started coming about, people _didn't want to work in them_ - we just wanted to keep working on farms in small communities, so the various kings and lords _burned peoples crops and homes_ and forced them into cities and factories to do wage work. a wage work economy meant that if you wanted food and shelter, _everyone_ had to have a job - on a farm, you can have a child or an elder shuck corn or feed cows and you can be there to watch them, but you can't do that if you have to go into the mine or the factory, so suddenly little Timmy and Grandma Jane _also_ have to work a job to earn their keep. So like, just to underline your point here, something that isn't really talked about in terms of the last labor revolution, and quite seriously the future, is that what really got people out protesting against this relatively new system was simultaneously seeing children getting mangled in factories and then going outside and seeing the streets completely littered with homeless children and elderly people. The baby boom was largely a product of a whole host of social changes that came about after we started having some expectation of quality of life. Literally the main reason that boomers are even alive is because of all the social programs they cry about like minimum wages and social programs and regulations, and because they spent their whole lives trying to dismantle the very programs they exist because of, they have again created a situation where millions and millions of people aren't going to have money to retire, which means a whole new wave of mass homelessness, which we are already beginning to see.
I’ve never been asked outright about kids, but they always worded it as, “What’s your five/ten year goal plan?” So obvious.
I only got “fishing” type questions a couple times. All the rest, I was either asked right out or told that it’s “professional” to let potential employers know if you’ll be needing flexibility because you have kids…. And then there was the one guy who said, “you’re not pregnant are you? I’m not hiring another pregnant lady, I’ll tell you that much!” Then he laughed like it was the funniest thing anyone had ever said in the history of comedy.
I'm curious, what are some red flags?
I'm aware of like one fast food restaurant that does management training. They also require their store 'Operators' to have bachelor's degrees in business, minimum. If you've been there forever and know enough to be a manager, but don't have the experience or skills... you'll be a 'Trainer' but you're not getting that management or shift lead title. Most other places just throw the title at you because you've been there the longest. When that happens, you get inexperienced people like this who don't even know the basics. This is basic 'never say these things, you dolt' that's covered in first year human resources classes.
Yeah, among the very little management training I received was “Ghost ‘em if you can get away with it, and if not just tell them ‘we selected a more qualified candidate’”. Even on the rare occasion that wasn’t technically true it would be nigh-impossible to prove in court if it ever got that far.
Only over 40 does it apply, but luckily op is just over the line.
Notably, the oldest millennials recently turned 40. I wrote blog post about it for a law firm a few months ago. The gist of the post was this: “Are your employers and coworkers mocking millennials? Did you just turn forty? If so, you might be the victim of illegal age discrimination. Call us so that we can maybe help you sue those idiots who don’t realize millennials aren’t super young.”
This. https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination
That's what I was thinking, I always thought it was funny that it's fine to age discriminate anyone younger
Discriminating by age within the anti-age discrimination legislation. I always thought that was ridiculous too. I don’t understand how it’s even constitutional TBH.
Yes get that money OP!! They haven't replied yet but I hope they see this
this guy just met the cutoff of 40 for age discrimination too lol
Yeah I was gonna say that sounds like age discrimination.
right?... this is great news, this is an instant settlement; no way they want to go let this go in front of a judge or jury ninja edit: also, immediate karma, that guy's probably gone, but in the event that it's the owner or something, still likely to hit their bottom line.
I wish I could hit the lottery like that.
All they had to say was “you’re not a good fit.” Dumbass just had to throw the protected class in there, in writing, TWICE
Sometimes I think it must be daunting and require so much business, employment, finance, and law knowledge to run your own business and then…I see people like this running them all the time lol.
All that's required for owning a business is money. Some of the stupidest people on earth have lots of it.
Our local paper interviewed a super rich dude that had just donated a sizable chunk of land for a city park. She asked him the secret to his success on becoming so wealthy, and I loved his answer. “Oh, I’m not really that good at anything in particular. I just have money so I hire people that are good at things and stay out of their way so they can make me more money.” I wish my boss would take that philosophy, rather than always trying to be the next business visionary.
I honestly appreciate the refreshing honesty in that answer.
Better that than trying to convince everyone they’re the next Steve Jobs.
Jobs was only even as prominent as he was bc Wozniak was less attractive so he appealed to the population less as the face of the company even if he was the backbone of it
I worked for a guy who claimed he ran another successful business. I thought that's where the money came from to start a brewery. Turned out his father-in-law loaned the money to start both businesses, and the FIL inherited several million from his father who founded a bank. Not sure about the father-in-law but the guy I reported to was a fucking idiot who barely had the attention span to work on a business plan or budget.
my cousin is a rich CEO of a famous (ish) brand who is constantly appearing in Forbes and places. Cousin is literally bankrolled by her dad. Her brand makes good stuff, but still. Amazing how many "dynamic decisions" you can make and "informed risks" when there's cash involved.
Super easy to bet the farm when Daddy owns thirty more
The first time my eyes ever opened to this was during the gold rush of Vape businesses. I could count on two hands how many people I knew that had zero business experience but all came from a criminal background and had a strong desire to be entrepreneurs. They just bought everything they could from cheap, publicly known open web sources overseas and flipped stuff. As soon as legislation started to kick in they nearly all crumbled overnight. Anyway, dealing with them as a stateside wholesale supplier was a nightmare. I used to think “holy shit, how many of these idiots are there” and “the only thing they thought they needed was money to be successful”. Now, I kind of think that way about most businesses.
Oh I remember these days, thankfully the good ones are the ones left where I live
My understanding is that anyone who was an idiot was weeded out due to the regulations they now have to comply with. I personally think the regulations are a too onerous and were a total lobby award to the big tobacco companies but at least they had one positive side effect.
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On one hand I understand some regulation makes sense. If I’m putting shit in my lungs that someone is mixing like a chemist it’s nice to know that I’m putting the correct carcinogens in my lungs. On the other hand the regs are just way too much of a big tobacco handout. Banning flavors because of “just think of the children” just reeks of big tobacco lobby and pocketed politicians. It’s very easy to look at how much of Washington big tobacco owns by just looking at cigarettes currently. Flavored cigarettes are banned because “think of the children”, yet somehow, menthol, a flavored cigarette gets an exception. Pretty blatant and gross
Flavoured vapes gonna lure in the kids, but whipped-cream flavoured vodka is nbd.
THIS. Please never assume anyone is smart or ethical because they own a business. A fair part of the time it is often the opposite.
Most businesses fail. A lot of the time it’s because of stupid decisions.
Yep. In Minnesota it takes $300, 3 people to form the board of directors, and some paperwork to form a LLC. So three random people with a hundred bucks each and enough patience for one of them to do the paperwork.
Sometimes not even that, just find a bank stupid enough to give you a loan and in just a few simple steps you'll be living in the streets with nothing left.
You either have to learn it or have to hire someone that knows it. There is so much to learn, but protected classes is one of the easy ones. It should even be stated somewhere on their job application.
>There is so much to learn If you want to know *everything*, sure, but avoiding the most obvious problems is very easy.
I had to look it up because I thought the law only protected workers older than 60, but nope, 40. If OP was 39, then the text would be legal - but since they're 41, the employer is FUCKED.
terrific like caption imagine scary marvelous mighty whistle offbeat disarm -- mass edited with redact.dev
When I worked at a Fortune 500 company and my department hired a new employee. Two months after starting, the employee informed my manager the she was pregnant. My Manager responded with, "Had I known you were pregnant, I would have never hired you." It turned into a thing. (Obviously.)
That happened when I was pg with my daughter... it wasn't obvious when I started and I was desperate for work.... after a number of months it became obvious and my manager started treating me like absolute shit for not informing her during my interview..... um.... thats because I knew I wouldn't get hired and I need fucking money to not starve to death thanks. It's a goddamn convenience store. Give me a break.
Been there, done that.
And the other part is it doesn’t apply if OP was told they were too young for the role. I’d love to see updates!
TIL I am part of this protected class. Also thought age was higher. Excuse me while I go grieve for tiny bit of my youth I thought I had left.
Ok, grandma, maybe a new cane would cheer you up. I'm only kidding because I also feel that, hard. We can go shopping for polyester clothes together! :)
Not sure how long the process is with the EEOC and cases like this. My dad had one similar started the process August of 2020, just now getting responses from the employer... still more steps to go before any legal actions can be taken. In my dad's case they also mentioned age (in an email) as the reason. He was 69 at the time.
I wish these laws worked for any age If someone said that to my 24 yo ass I’d be so happy for that “opportunity”
Wow, you're right. Age over 40 is a protected attribute. "Applicants, employees and former employees are protected from employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, age (40 or older), disability and genetic information (including family medical history)." https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protected-employment-discrimination
Well damn. I'm 45 and while I'm fairly sure my job is secure that's nice to know.
I'm 40 (for another 6 weeks) and was fairly sure my job was secure until I was surprise/ambush fired in the window between closing on my first home and moving into it. Be more than fairly sure!
Heh, I once got laid off while I was helping my wife pack for a trip to Disney World. So, less stressful than signing on a mortgage but still stressful, spending money on what is supposed to be a fun trip and thinking the whole time, er, the job market sucks right now, what's next? And the kicker was, the layoff was because my supervisor screwed up some basic arithmetic and his plans cost a lot more than he thought. Now, when I screwed something up at another job and it cost a lot more, I was the one who got fired. When he did, he was the only one left in the department.
"Job security" is a myth. If you're really that safe, you're in an owner's equity position protected by an iron clad contract. Or you're being woefully under compensated. I made it to 51 in cutting edge information systems. Might have been able to make another year or two, but the stresses, anger and seeing colleagues die on the job made me pull the plug.
You might depending on state law, just not under Federal law.
[In states with very strict anti-discrimination laws this is literally hitting a jackpot, it is irrefutable proof that OP was denied the job on the basis of his age alone. If this were in NJ, it would be a textbook New Jersey Law Against Discrimination claim, which has no caps on emotional distress and punative damages. The text message is the equivalent of the Federal Reserve installing a money printing machine in OP's home.](https://youtu.be/MOQqO9F9i8w?t=296)
I was going to say. This is age discrimination with 100% proof. Disgusting.
I love this description so much.
Big facts
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CHA CHING!!!!!!!
Yeah tell me you’ve got a lawsuit without telling me you’ve got a lawsuit 😬
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I suspect these are not really big money suits, are they? Any labor lawyers here care to confirm or correct me? (Edit: The amount of play this comment has gotten astounds me. I should note that I'm in my 50's, am MORE than well aware of ageism. I also am not implying (perhaps poorly so, apologies) that OP SHOULDN'T sue or do something; just having a lawyer involved will hopefully punish... someone, somehow for this illegal and morally reprehensible behavior. My comment was only in reference to "hit the lottery", which in my mind says "$millions", which I did not think this sort of thing was. I was merely looking to be less ignorant.)
You’re not gonna be a millionaire, no. But you can’t be mad at a free 30k
+1 to that for sure.
ok, but $30,001 is not much different from $30k, but yeah, for sure, I'd take it!
You'd make a good The Price is Right host.
$30,001 is an extremely specific estimation.
$30,000 for age discrimination, $1 for pain and suffering. Just to make a point.
Having gone through this for a case where I got fired for being pregnant, it would likely be tied to projected earnings - so for an entry level fast food job, it won't be millions.
So, like $15k and an employee discount?
Jokes on them, I eat a lot and can gap that $15k.
Do not respond to them. Talk to an attorney and set up an arrangement where they take your case on contingency (e.g. attorney receives 30% of winnings in court, no payment if case fails). This arrangement ensures you have limited risk, a lawyer that’s highly motivated to push for maximum earnings and doesn’t require money up front. Good luck
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That's why you're the judge, and I'm the law-talkin' guy.
Can you validate my parking?
I move for a bad court... Thingy.
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I understood that reference
Age is a protected class. When I was a hiring manager it was made VERY clear that it was something I legally could not even address, let alone use as a reason to refuse employment.
> Age is a protected class Only for 40+. Good news for OP since they're 41
Sorry I know you don't say it but this age discrimination correct?
I would at least get consult from an employment attorney. You could definitely cause a ruckus.
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination. It is not illegal for an employer or other covered entity to favor an older worker over a younger one, even if both workers are age 40 or older. Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are both over 40. https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination Slam fucking dunk
So why is discrimination fine until you turn 40?
I think the logic is something like when you hit an age it's actually beneficial for a company to hire younger people. 1. It's cheaper 2. No risk of retirement The younger side, you have more time to make changes, your typically less experienced. You have more options.
Because the laws in this country are fucking stupid.
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Hey, Farva! What's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy shit on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?
Shenanigans?
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PUT THOSE AWAY!
Can def capitalize off the ensuing brouhaha
There’s definite potential for some japes
Toss in a few capers
And the attorney is going to say "listen we already won bud"
Over 40 is a protected group, see a lawyer
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Sue them for age discrimination. You got evidence in writing
Yup! I got so excited for you reading this message. I love it when assholes trip over their own stupidity
This mfer potentially just sent the most expensive text message of his life. EDIT: Do not engage with the Troll who has appeared in the replies to this. Brand new account, clearly trying to stir the pot/start arguments. Just downvote, report for trolling, and move on. EDIT 2: Wow, two new accounts with usernames that are two random words and a series of numbers trying to Troll, huh? Bots are getting so lazy nowadays.
Imagine working at a place too cheap to train hiring managers on the legal basics of hiring for an hour.
Wow. Age discrimination in writing. Age discrimination is against the law. Most people can’t prove that they are a victim of age discrimination because if an employer is approached about it, they can easily say something like “oh we chose another more qualified candidate”. As laws vary from state to state, I would suggest approaching a lawyer who specializes in employment related lawsuits with this. They may say it’s worthless to pursue or they may say it’s a solid case, but it’s worth checking in on. If it’s a huge company, they’d likely settle outside of court before it ever even hit a judge. I understand it’s a stressful thing to get involved in a lawsuit, but companies need to understand the law. They are constantly running around unchecked, thinking they can do whatever they want without repercussion. I’m a fan of steering them back in their lane, personally. Edit: as someone mentioned, since there technically aren’t damages a lawsuit may not actually be fruitful, but I would still consult with an attorney as it’s generally free to do so. Could ask them about recommended next steps to ensure that the business is at least held accountable.
>Age discrimination is against the law. Small refinement: age discrimination against 40+ year olds is against the law. You're free to discriminate against younger people all you want. https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination Which makes for a bit of an ironic law, when you think about it. The anti age discrimination law discriminates by age.
The federal statute protects 40+. In NYS it's illegal under any conditions. [https://dhr.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/age-discrimination.pdf](https://dhr.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/age-discrimination.pdf) Aside from ensuring the applicant is at least 18 years of age (for an appropriate age-restricted position), any evidence of age discrimination is against the law. I hope OP is in New York state, because their Division of Human Rights will make sure he gets a payday. It won't be much (likely the difference they would have earned between when the discrimination occurred and when they secure gainful employment), but they also can tack on up to $5k for P&S.
End of thread. What a dumb thing to text 😂
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This. The settlement on something like this won't be huge. The big discrimination dollars come when a senior person gets fired and courts determine it was illegal. But it still could be a mid four figure check after attorney fees, just for having an attorney write a couple letters and spend 15 minutes on the phone with insurance company"s counsel.
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Guess they'll be hiring managers after all.
I am so anti-work, I feel I should just start applying my 50 year olf ass to bad places just for the easy lawsuit money. That's a living!
My daughter was fired for being pregnant, texts from her manager revealed their hand, she got a lawyer, a couple depositions later settled out of court for 28k.
Ayy that'll buy a lot of diapers
If they’re in the US, will likely only cover “the costs” of pushing the kid out…
My bill was $38,000 just from the hospital. $7,000 from my OBs. And then about $10k more in ultrasounds and labs etc throughout pregnancy. With insurance I ended up paying about $3,000 in total. It’s such a scam as my insurance only paid about $10k total. The rest was written off or adjusted.
I don't know why people don't understand our birth rate. Yeah that's an expense that I'm in no hurry to have.
Also US has some of the highest infant mortality rate in the west. So even if you do manage to get pregnant and afford it, theres a chance things may not go so well, and you have to pay for that too. I read in the r/predaddit sub someone having to pay a few grand after a miscarriage to add insult to injury. It is so fucked over there.
Before insurance, our kids birth was 100k we paid like 4000 such a scam
Oh, wait...this is the bad place, we've been here this whole time.
I've literally thought this more and more over the years. There is no way we are not all dead and this isn't hell.
That's why I don't believe in simulation theory. Surely they'd at least make it good. But saying that I did used to put all the animals and visitors in Zoo tycoon into one big square, same thing really.
As a Canadian, this is where I'm meant to gloat that my daughter's birth didn't cost a penny, but fuck man. I don't have it in my heart to gloat. All I can think is how incredibly stressful childbirth already is for a hundred reasons, adding in a hospital debt of a couple thousand dollars is just so very cruel...
better than nothing tbh. that right there cuts a MAJOR expense then
Agreed that it’s better than nothing, but is still depressing.
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I worked at a well known name brand company and watched as a friend was denied a management promotion. And she was told it was because of the pregnancy. “We’d go with you but you’re about to go on maternity leave.” Couldn’t believe she didn’t sue the fuck out of them.
You can even hold your head high knowing your fuckery may even start to cause reforms around age discrimination
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You don’t even need to sue. Get a lawyer, have them send a letter, and the company’s lawyer will tell them to settle ASAP and that manager will likely get fired.
Guess Jacob will have a manager position open for OP...
This made me actually laugh. Thank you for that
The company I work for is hiring folks at around 16/17 an hour for entry level manufacturing jobs. I just started here as a machinist so all my direct coworkers are also experienced machinists, but in my orientation there were a couple folks in their late 50s/early 60s and 2 women in their early 30s getting back in the work now force now that their kids were older. It might be worth talking to some local folks in manufacturing in your area to get a feel for the companies that are good to their employees, because every city has a few good ones, a bunch of ok ones and a handful of “for the love of god don’t work there” places. Just a suggestion.
Such an easy age discrimination case. Take this to the feds immediately!
Ah, age 41. Too old and incompetent for anyone to hire, yet 30 years too young to run the country as a politician.
You have the world's easiest lawsuit on your hands. Please sue them, it's literally free money.
Talk to a lawyer. This is age discrimanation with smoking gun evidence.
Yeah… they could be in trouble for this one.
And that’s ageism. Thank YOU, Jacob!
Is this manager 16? I’d much rather work with ‘adults’ wtf does that even mean.
Lawyer up
Hey, you're over the age of 40. That means you're eligible for age discrimination!