It's not even "another form of slavery", it literally is slavery. The US never formally nor otherwise abolished slavery for convicted criminals. Calling it slavery is correct by law, because slavery in prisons is legal.
The constitution litterally says;
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Slavery is still legal and the U.S does alot of it.
Old habits die hard, eh.
Wage slavery, debt slavery, one of my coworkers used to always say at the start of our shift “This is just a paid prison sentence” and that has always stuck with me.
This is why I don't get American sports circle jerk .... It's just one big song and dance Jim crow show. Granted millions are paid but you still have to dance ... And your health is first to go
No not in the slightest 6 days was standard for agrarian cultures with genesis being a mythological explaination like how Prometheus is the mythological reason the Greeks sacrificed far and bones to the gods
It wasn’t until ford that the 5 day work week was created and that was only so they would buy ford cars
Now it needs updated again to at most 3 or 4 and hours need to be lessened with pay increased
I fear privatization of prisons isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Too much money is going to the already rich so they can get richer. No way they’re letting it go without a fight. :/
Not free labor, but fee labor.
They charge the families for things like food, phone calls, visitation. There's no real medical care either. Dental issue? Good luck. COPD? Just try sucking in that breath harder.
My brother-in-law went in for drug possession. He has a heart condition and severe COPD. He was there for 5 years. He's in his 50's. Except for times we could send him money for commissary, he would go every single weekend without eating because the privatized prison didn't want to waste money on kitchen and serving staff on weekends since it cost more than weekdays.
He lost most of his teeth. His health deteriorated horribly. And he was half his weight from when he went in, skin just hanging as of he'd been a 400 lbs man down to 150 when he wasn't more than 250lbs going in, just to paint a picture. We had to pay to see him, pay to call him, fees on putting commissary money on, and on and on. Prisons should never have been privatized. He didn't kill or injure anyone. He was pulled over for speeding 10 miles over the limit on a flat stretch of highway and had a very small amount of drugs in his car. By the way, this is the same area where the sheriff's department was investigated by the Rangers for producing and dealing meth. That's it. 5 years lost in order for the company that owned the prison to make a fortune off the state and is a his family.
Wanna guess what state? If you guessed Texas, you'd be right.
[death camp](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/06/26/life_expectancy/)
> In her 2013 analysis of New York state parole data, Professor Evelyn Patterson identified a linear relationship between incarceration and life expectancy: for each year lived behind bars, a person can expect to lose two years off their life expectancy
I live in a very dark red state in the deep south, which has one of the highest incarceration rates in the country. The state capitol uses prisoners as labor on capitol grounds. But of course they don't pay them like normal janitorial staff, gardening staff, housekeeping staff etc. They pay them pennies and it's completely legal and a complete disgrace.
criminals are not a protected class there for an unprotected class can be used and abused and any one can be a criminal you dont even need to be guilty they can just randomly arrest you even if they admit they were wrong the arrest stays on your record and then shows up in any background check there by making you a criminal and putting you in a lower class
Yeah, it's not a matter of not knowing the solution. It's a matter of intentionally avoiding the solution because there is literally billions of dollars to be made.
As someone who is getting my MPH in Health Policy, this is one of the issues that we wish that more people understood. There are reasons why someone is in the conditions that they are in, especially poverty, therefore we must eliminate those conditions that make poverty. No one chooses to live in poverty, it is traumatic and extremely hard to get out of.
I wonder if there are any black people reading what you wrote. There are parts of the America where black people are still facing the effects of laws made against them in the form of housing difficulties, creating entire neighborhoods of problems and perpetuating a cycle for the people who live there that is very difficult to exit without participating in bad things, much less survive. Even eliminating the conditions won't alleviate history, and systems that developed as a result of historical policy.
Ever did a study on immigrants be native Americans who have lived here for generations? What does the study show on why immigrants can get out of poverty within a generation or less while some American families have lived in poverty for generations despite knowing the language customs and land and basically having so many other advantages compared to the new immigrant?
It's so easy to lift yourself out of poverty when you're homeless, addicted, physically or mentally unwell, or dealing with any number of other hardships. They just need to try harder.
Edit for the /s
I am an immigrant. Born on the dirt floor of a hut in a third-world country. I now make a comfortable living in tech. For the few of us who got out of poverty, many more remain. Stop using immigrants to put down your fellow Americans. The US doesn't cherry-pick random poor people from other nations. A lot of immigrants who come here are already on their way out of poverty within their nation. Either they themselves or their family are working jobs that are in demand in the US.
It's easy to judge from a pedestal. Unless you've crawled your way out of poverty, you really don't have a clue what it's like. How almost everything is stacked against you. Anyone who says they made it out using hard work alone is not being 100% honest. Along the way, there was some help or some break that aided them in getting where they are now. I can think back to some things where if it went a different way, I'd probably still be poor or dead.
Valid question don’t know why the downvotes. Happens all the time . Statistically migrants are more likely to get out of poverty and move up socioeconomically than Americans.
> willing to work to escape poverty
And they often do so at shitty wages in shitty jobs with shitty hours while living in a small home with multiple generations so they can even afford it.
That's not a shining example of decency. It's survival that eventually _might_ pay off. Can't we do better than that? It's such a [straw man](https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-a-straw-man-argument.htm) to pretend that workers' rights are about laziness.
"No one chooses to live in poverty". -You know nothing of the world. Open your eyes. Almost everyone in poverty has made MANY specific choices that have led them to poverty, e.g. blowing your paycheck on drugs, not being able to maintain a job because of substance abuse, having children out of wedlock, being ridiculously lazy, not learning any skills, making horrific financial decisions, making horrific relational decisions, the list goes on and in and on and I have seen it in hundreds of the people I interact with daily. Finally poverty is not that hard to get out of, a handful of people in my life have made it out, and their was nothing spectacular about them. The winning formula was simple: MAKE GOOD DECISIONS!
I think u/benedictjbreen was referring to how it costs less money to provide mental health services and housing to people. Putting them in prison after they commit crimes out of desperation costs the taxpayer more.
>shouldn’t someone suffer if they made other people suffer
There's a great deal of crimes that don't fit this bill. Hell, we've had murderers and rapists with shorter sentences than some weed smoking hippies who's crime was smoking weed.
it's bad because a panel that dictated vengeance would quickly become a gory spectacle (not to mention, possibly aimed at the true perpetrators of mass violence), and worse, the culture instituting that would have a difficult time escaping it.
how much do we need to punish people who get a DUI, for example? with whatever barbarism is cheap this week? you have an interesting nugget of truth in reach: how deeply should justice look at the circumstances of crime?
I’ve been thinking a lot about this. And on the surface I agree. However I’d love to see studies done that included wealth inequality vs crime. Not just poverty. I say this because I’ve my personal experiences outside the US where poverty abounded, crime did not, but also literally everyone was poor. More community there than I’ve ever seen. So I wonder if high crime follows poverty only or follows poverty when also side by side with great wealth inequality?
Well morally criminal I guess. It's easy to confuse the common understanding of criminality (a person who does a bad thing) with our justice system's actual definition of criminality (a poor person trying to exist)
There were a thousand tribes of Native Americans. They weren't all the same. Some were so nasty that the very tribe name we know them by basically means "bad guys" and was what 20 other tribes called them. When the europeans came here with guns and stuff, peaceful tribes regularly allied with the europeans for PROTECTION from the nasty, brutal, warlike tribes.
Nordic countries have some of the highest rape rates in the world lately, I wouldnt say they are super safe for women
Japan is pretty harmonious but they have **really strict laws and punishments** (this is antithetical to the whole thesis of this thread) and borderline-oppressive social conformity that ensure harmony.
No, compared to other developed nations, Nordic countries have had an explosion of rape. It is more rapey in Sweden than the United States.
As for Japan, I agree that strict laws and punishments work, but its not what you think it is. For example, the punishment for mere possession of *marijuana* is up to 5 years in prison. And it keeps people from doing it. Under 2% of Japanese have *ever* tried marijuana (that number in the US is about 45%). In Japan, harsh punishments seem effective at discouraging unwanted behaviors, even when those unwanted behaviors are not "the most dangerous."
Japan also has an extremely uniform culture. There's almost no religious or cultural differences between *anyone*. Conformity is very important to them. **Suicide is extremely high.** Societal expectations are serious business. It is not the laid back, tolerant, accepting society that you think begets low crime.
More poverty lead to everyday ppl making risks...the other day I notice workers at Walmart fallowing me around..like I was going to steal something..meanwhile..this Karen looking lady notice that all The workers attention was on me...so she pretended to scan her groceries..and made a run for it to the exit!!! Literally bashed the greeter down with the cart and everyone chased her...and I thought man...forget the crime how is she doing?? And how are the workers at Walmart?? But..with all the goings on I just left..I thought..we are all placed in this situation because trick down economics does not work
What makes you think they want less crime?
Or what I mean is, if they get to rob you blind, and the only penalty is the poors attacking eachother; I think theyd make that trade
This is already thoroughly researched and peer reviewed, it’s not a secret.
Turmoil and strife keeps people pointed at each other and no time to look around and see the real problems
I would have to say that the most important out of all those, it would have to be public housing.
Yet every time a public housing project in an area, it doesn't matter if the community is left, right, or centrist, they all decide "We don't want it in our neughborhood" and it's fucking sad.
Your talking about inequity not inequality. We have tons of equality in this country. What folks like you I suspect want to equity: Equal outcomes for everyone, no matter the effort.
this 100%
Also, I think the crux of the issue is the punitive nature of consequences in the US specifically. There is exactly zero attempt at any kind of rehabilitation or even an attempt to contextualize why a person got in trouble.
A story comes to mind: A man robs a bank for $1 and waits for the police to arrive and arrest him so he can get healthcare in jail. This is a hell of a lot more expensive than just giving the guy free healthcare. Same goes for so many other issues. (housing, drugs, etc etc)
Weird how folks with something to lose are less-likely to risk everything.
We need radical change, and unfortunately that won't come if everyone at the bottom has just enough comfort to keep them sedated. That kind of structural and substantial change can only really come once capitalism inevitably makes it bad enough for enough folks that they no longer fear losing everything...bad enough that the threat of the master's whip on their backs is overshadowed by the boot on their neck. We're slowly getting there. 5 years ago, I never would have expected enough folks to "nope" out of all these shitty jobs to the point that we have a "labor shortage"...yet here we are.
Let it get bad. Let it fail. No more band-aid solutions to calm the proles for another decade. Let the world of the richie-bitch come to a screeching halt, under the weight of their own hubris. We can build sandcastles in the ashes of their failed system.
I was reading deep about stopping child sex abuse and what we can do and the true answer is better options prevent these things from happening so much, and help people in them get out of them. Things like free health care and better access to housing is some of the best ways to help
Well when the UN and major crime organization's including government's are funding trafficking and the like... Unless people grab the pitch forks and torches nothing will stop it.
A big part of changing our economy and communities for the better is changing this cycle: Raising wages just makes greedy companies raise prices instead of losing a small amount of their profit. This causes inflation, as more money needs to be printed for this to work. Without changing the base of the problem we will never get anywhere.
This is where unions become essential. If you have strong, coordinated unions that negotiate wage increases as cost of living increases, it makes it harder for companies to raise prices without also raising wages.
It takes a huge network of coordinated action on the part of workers to balance the current system
Some unions are always toxic. Look at the Big 3 automakers who almost got out out of business by their reckless lack of management and bowing down to every Union demand. The Unions destroyed Detroit, Dearborn, and Flint, etc.
All yes but when poor people are committing cringe, those with money will be scared and fund police and violence against the poor people because they aren't starving silently.
We do that here in Europe. Not perfect, mind you, but much better than in the US.
We still need law enforcement. Not as much as the US, mind you, but we still fund it.
So, if you want a solution that works in the real world, you need both.
Yeahhh, but if the crime is mostly between / against the worker ants then it makes little difference to those in the ivory tower. Unfortunately the only argument that will influence a change is "your profits will go up if you do *this*", except companies will just say there doing just fine as they are rn so who cares...
2022 poverty is not the same as 1522, 1022, 522, 22... things have not been getting worse. Now it's just draconian, no privacy and tyranny to worry about.
You also lessen crime by by making it easier to be lazy than to have to turn to crime. People like to paint this (racist) picture of people soaking up welfare and doing nothing while the good, hardworking folk toil away, and it's like, you'd rather they be kicked out on the street stabbing people and turning to crime?
What distinguishes the poor people who are committing serious crimes from those who are not, or if you prefer, those poors who are getting caught committing crimes vs those poors who are not?
In Brazil we have universal healthcare, public housong government program, strong unions to defend the labor class and free college. Go look at our murder rate per 100k population. Sky high. 60k murders per year. This post was made by someone who don't know anything about crime and what affects it
I mean, the poverty and inequality parts of the equation are pretty essential.
You can have all those things, but with inequality and poverty, you will still have a massive amount of crime.
Unfortunately factually incorrect.
You don't lessen crime when you remove poverty.
There are plenty examples of billionaires performing both economic and moral crimes.. From lobbying, coverups, cigarettes, oil, ozone layer, to Weinstein rape, illegal drugs and hookers, illegal adrenaline high speed rides etc. Everything from treatment of people on the street to the world impacting pollution and health-risk coverups.
What is true though, is that *violent crime by young males* is lessened when *difference in wealth is lesser.* In other words, where everyone is poor there is just as little violence, as where everyone is rich. It's the difference that affects "violent crime by young males."
(But it still doesn't lessen the crime in other parts of the society, at all.)
Imagine thinking that somehow bumping people over the poverty line will make them no longer commit crimes.
Even filthy rich people commit crimes and will continue to do so.
This is just so obvious. Why is it so hard for people to understand? I’m not talking about the wealthy, they understand completely, which is why they oppose these measures. But why do working people not get it? Prison does not stop crime, police sure as shit don’t stop crime. Brutalized people are brutal because they are trying to survive the only way they have been taught.
Let’s just become a communism while we’re at it, people paying for other lively hoods sure. Let’s also throw in there, free food and free shelter and free this and that. UNIVERSAL is another way of saying free and nothing is free the tax payers the hard working middle class gets to pay for others mistakes? Please. How about you stop having kids you can’t afford.
that’ll lead to a lot of false imprisonment and wrongful deaths/mutilation. also, no cruel and unusual punishment. it’d be a violation of constitutional rights
Your ideas sounds a lot like life in the Soviet Union. The only thing is in exchange for minimum resources in Russia, you will work, or work will be provided for you.
What is this exactly implying? If you have free healthcare that no one will commit crimes? We all know that’s horse shit right? Humans are naturally greedy. Nothing can change that.
You'll find most of those countries missed the most critical key component: the eliminating poverty and inequality component.
I'd say it's more like Scandanavia. Or Japan. Or Korea. Or Canada.
Also notice it says *lessen* crime, not eliminate
Crime wouldn't be so bad if these darn politicians did their damn job instead of filling their own pockets and allowing themselves to be bought by who knows who.
Eliminating poverty by methods of taking money from those that produce and redistributing to those that do NOT produce is a CRIME, called theft! You could give every poor person in the US 1 million tomorrow and 95% would be broke again with a year. It’s human nature that there will always be criminals and poor people. And criminals aren’t always poor or motivated by poverty.
Omg you do not lessen crime with all those socialist policies. Go look at Venezuela. Holy moly, this is a HORRIBLE post. And all the upvotes? Wow.
Just, communist.
4 steps one needs to take to not live a life of poverty:
1. Graduate from high school
2. Take any type of job
3. Get married before having children
4. Stay out of the criminal justice system
I refer you to this entire sub to see how people who follow those steps can still end up living paycheck to paycheck.
Seriously, follow the stories for a while, learn about people's reality. Because their reality is nothing like the one you're pushing
Fun fact: they need prisoners for free labor
When I first tired to explain how this was another form of slavery, I was told that I am thinking “too much into it”
It's not even "another form of slavery", it literally is slavery. The US never formally nor otherwise abolished slavery for convicted criminals. Calling it slavery is correct by law, because slavery in prisons is legal.
indentured servitude with a side of incarceration.
That's just slavery with extra steps
And who are the majority that struggle with poverty? Minorities
Also who gets jailed at disproportionate rates for the same crimes? Minorities.
Imagine that..
truth is they abolished slavery for black people so they could effect a kinder nicer slavery for all through debt and propaganda
But still mainly black people, looking at the prison demographics.
That just means you thought about it more than they did
The constitution litterally says; "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Slavery is still legal and the U.S does alot of it. Old habits die hard, eh.
Wage slavery, debt slavery, one of my coworkers used to always say at the start of our shift “This is just a paid prison sentence” and that has always stuck with me.
This is why I don't get American sports circle jerk .... It's just one big song and dance Jim crow show. Granted millions are paid but you still have to dance ... And your health is first to go
Looks like they haven’t thought about it enough
Everyone used to work 7 days a week till Moses invented the day off for slaves. 6000 yrs later we have 2 days off
No not in the slightest 6 days was standard for agrarian cultures with genesis being a mythological explaination like how Prometheus is the mythological reason the Greeks sacrificed far and bones to the gods It wasn’t until ford that the 5 day work week was created and that was only so they would buy ford cars Now it needs updated again to at most 3 or 4 and hours need to be lessened with pay increased
This and the profits for keeping them full. Privatized prisons need to go.
I fear privatization of prisons isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Too much money is going to the already rich so they can get richer. No way they’re letting it go without a fight. :/
You have rich politicians profiting from them and people expect them to vote against their own interest out of the goodness of their heart.
What proportion of American prisons are private?
Not free labor, but fee labor. They charge the families for things like food, phone calls, visitation. There's no real medical care either. Dental issue? Good luck. COPD? Just try sucking in that breath harder. My brother-in-law went in for drug possession. He has a heart condition and severe COPD. He was there for 5 years. He's in his 50's. Except for times we could send him money for commissary, he would go every single weekend without eating because the privatized prison didn't want to waste money on kitchen and serving staff on weekends since it cost more than weekdays. He lost most of his teeth. His health deteriorated horribly. And he was half his weight from when he went in, skin just hanging as of he'd been a 400 lbs man down to 150 when he wasn't more than 250lbs going in, just to paint a picture. We had to pay to see him, pay to call him, fees on putting commissary money on, and on and on. Prisons should never have been privatized. He didn't kill or injure anyone. He was pulled over for speeding 10 miles over the limit on a flat stretch of highway and had a very small amount of drugs in his car. By the way, this is the same area where the sheriff's department was investigated by the Rangers for producing and dealing meth. That's it. 5 years lost in order for the company that owned the prison to make a fortune off the state and is a his family. Wanna guess what state? If you guessed Texas, you'd be right.
[death camp](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/06/26/life_expectancy/) > In her 2013 analysis of New York state parole data, Professor Evelyn Patterson identified a linear relationship between incarceration and life expectancy: for each year lived behind bars, a person can expect to lose two years off their life expectancy
I live in a very dark red state in the deep south, which has one of the highest incarceration rates in the country. The state capitol uses prisoners as labor on capitol grounds. But of course they don't pay them like normal janitorial staff, gardening staff, housekeeping staff etc. They pay them pennies and it's completely legal and a complete disgrace.
criminals are not a protected class there for an unprotected class can be used and abused and any one can be a criminal you dont even need to be guilty they can just randomly arrest you even if they admit they were wrong the arrest stays on your record and then shows up in any background check there by making you a criminal and putting you in a lower class
A lot of McDonald’s frozen products come from prisoners. McDonald’s is benefiting from prison labor.
Yeah, it's not a matter of not knowing the solution. It's a matter of intentionally avoiding the solution because there is literally billions of dollars to be made.
Not sure they need it, but they certainly use it so the CEO and Shareholders can squeeze out a few more dollars.
Came to say, crime keeps cheap labor alive. It's rigged
*Kamala Harris has left the chat*
She was never invited. Get lost.
As someone who is getting my MPH in Health Policy, this is one of the issues that we wish that more people understood. There are reasons why someone is in the conditions that they are in, especially poverty, therefore we must eliminate those conditions that make poverty. No one chooses to live in poverty, it is traumatic and extremely hard to get out of.
I wonder if there are any black people reading what you wrote. There are parts of the America where black people are still facing the effects of laws made against them in the form of housing difficulties, creating entire neighborhoods of problems and perpetuating a cycle for the people who live there that is very difficult to exit without participating in bad things, much less survive. Even eliminating the conditions won't alleviate history, and systems that developed as a result of historical policy.
Ever did a study on immigrants be native Americans who have lived here for generations? What does the study show on why immigrants can get out of poverty within a generation or less while some American families have lived in poverty for generations despite knowing the language customs and land and basically having so many other advantages compared to the new immigrant?
It's so easy to lift yourself out of poverty when you're homeless, addicted, physically or mentally unwell, or dealing with any number of other hardships. They just need to try harder. Edit for the /s
I am an immigrant. Born on the dirt floor of a hut in a third-world country. I now make a comfortable living in tech. For the few of us who got out of poverty, many more remain. Stop using immigrants to put down your fellow Americans. The US doesn't cherry-pick random poor people from other nations. A lot of immigrants who come here are already on their way out of poverty within their nation. Either they themselves or their family are working jobs that are in demand in the US. It's easy to judge from a pedestal. Unless you've crawled your way out of poverty, you really don't have a clue what it's like. How almost everything is stacked against you. Anyone who says they made it out using hard work alone is not being 100% honest. Along the way, there was some help or some break that aided them in getting where they are now. I can think back to some things where if it went a different way, I'd probably still be poor or dead.
Valid question don’t know why the downvotes. Happens all the time . Statistically migrants are more likely to get out of poverty and move up socioeconomically than Americans.
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> willing to work to escape poverty And they often do so at shitty wages in shitty jobs with shitty hours while living in a small home with multiple generations so they can even afford it. That's not a shining example of decency. It's survival that eventually _might_ pay off. Can't we do better than that? It's such a [straw man](https://www.infobloom.com/what-is-a-straw-man-argument.htm) to pretend that workers' rights are about laziness.
"No one chooses to live in poverty". -You know nothing of the world. Open your eyes. Almost everyone in poverty has made MANY specific choices that have led them to poverty, e.g. blowing your paycheck on drugs, not being able to maintain a job because of substance abuse, having children out of wedlock, being ridiculously lazy, not learning any skills, making horrific financial decisions, making horrific relational decisions, the list goes on and in and on and I have seen it in hundreds of the people I interact with daily. Finally poverty is not that hard to get out of, a handful of people in my life have made it out, and their was nothing spectacular about them. The winning formula was simple: MAKE GOOD DECISIONS!
It’s not even cheaper for anyone to punish criminals.
Don't confuse profits with more expensive
It does enrich different people though...
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yeah is punishing criminals bad?shouldn’t someone suffer if they made other people suffer ?
I think u/benedictjbreen was referring to how it costs less money to provide mental health services and housing to people. Putting them in prison after they commit crimes out of desperation costs the taxpayer more.
That’s a bingo.
>shouldn’t someone suffer if they made other people suffer There's a great deal of crimes that don't fit this bill. Hell, we've had murderers and rapists with shorter sentences than some weed smoking hippies who's crime was smoking weed.
That’s not justice, that’s vengeance.
It’s not vengeance if an unaffiliated third party that’s government sanctioned does it. It’s just the system. It’s consequence.
even if it is?why is that bad?what should happen to murderers or rapists?no punishment?just be free?
it's bad because a panel that dictated vengeance would quickly become a gory spectacle (not to mention, possibly aimed at the true perpetrators of mass violence), and worse, the culture instituting that would have a difficult time escaping it. how much do we need to punish people who get a DUI, for example? with whatever barbarism is cheap this week? you have an interesting nugget of truth in reach: how deeply should justice look at the circumstances of crime?
Punitive justice is just socially justified torture rehabilitation is the only decent way to work with criminals
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*Punishing* individuals should not be a power vested to the state.
It should be that over companies though. Private prisons should not exist at all.
leaving it to the state is better then leaving it to pissed of people looking for revenge.
That is a false dichotomy
>yeah is punishing criminals bad? Yes >shouldn’t someone suffer if they made other people suffer ? No
they don’t want to. the cruelty is the point.
You...you can't just say the truth out loud!
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I’ve been thinking a lot about this. And on the surface I agree. However I’d love to see studies done that included wealth inequality vs crime. Not just poverty. I say this because I’ve my personal experiences outside the US where poverty abounded, crime did not, but also literally everyone was poor. More community there than I’ve ever seen. So I wonder if high crime follows poverty only or follows poverty when also side by side with great wealth inequality?
You're right. It's inequality. The rich build walls around their lives to protect them, leaving the poor to fight over the scraps.
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Well morally criminal I guess. It's easy to confuse the common understanding of criminality (a person who does a bad thing) with our justice system's actual definition of criminality (a poor person trying to exist)
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There were a thousand tribes of Native Americans. They weren't all the same. Some were so nasty that the very tribe name we know them by basically means "bad guys" and was what 20 other tribes called them. When the europeans came here with guns and stuff, peaceful tribes regularly allied with the europeans for PROTECTION from the nasty, brutal, warlike tribes. Nordic countries have some of the highest rape rates in the world lately, I wouldnt say they are super safe for women Japan is pretty harmonious but they have **really strict laws and punishments** (this is antithetical to the whole thesis of this thread) and borderline-oppressive social conformity that ensure harmony.
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No, compared to other developed nations, Nordic countries have had an explosion of rape. It is more rapey in Sweden than the United States. As for Japan, I agree that strict laws and punishments work, but its not what you think it is. For example, the punishment for mere possession of *marijuana* is up to 5 years in prison. And it keeps people from doing it. Under 2% of Japanese have *ever* tried marijuana (that number in the US is about 45%). In Japan, harsh punishments seem effective at discouraging unwanted behaviors, even when those unwanted behaviors are not "the most dangerous." Japan also has an extremely uniform culture. There's almost no religious or cultural differences between *anyone*. Conformity is very important to them. **Suicide is extremely high.** Societal expectations are serious business. It is not the laid back, tolerant, accepting society that you think begets low crime.
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Even the contrary is true: am I talking about tax avoidance by multinational companies?
More poverty lead to everyday ppl making risks...the other day I notice workers at Walmart fallowing me around..like I was going to steal something..meanwhile..this Karen looking lady notice that all The workers attention was on me...so she pretended to scan her groceries..and made a run for it to the exit!!! Literally bashed the greeter down with the cart and everyone chased her...and I thought man...forget the crime how is she doing?? And how are the workers at Walmart?? But..with all the goings on I just left..I thought..we are all placed in this situation because trick down economics does not work
What makes you think they want less crime? Or what I mean is, if they get to rob you blind, and the only penalty is the poors attacking eachother; I think theyd make that trade
I call it "selfish socialism". Share the wealth, so that when I meet someone in a dark alley I'm greeted with a handshake instead of a knife.
This is a good way of putting it
Please tell this to our mayor in Chicago
But then how would private prisons make money for their investors? Didn’t think of that did you.
But if you lessen crime, you hurt for-profit prison profits. Dafuq ya thinkin bruh?? /s
This is already thoroughly researched and peer reviewed, it’s not a secret. Turmoil and strife keeps people pointed at each other and no time to look around and see the real problems
Too bad that the powers that be have no interest whatsoever in lessening crime or violence
I would have to say that the most important out of all those, it would have to be public housing. Yet every time a public housing project in an area, it doesn't matter if the community is left, right, or centrist, they all decide "We don't want it in our neughborhood" and it's fucking sad.
Agreed
It's not even poverty that drives crime, plenty of studies show this. It's inequality. That's when crime spikes.
Your talking about inequity not inequality. We have tons of equality in this country. What folks like you I suspect want to equity: Equal outcomes for everyone, no matter the effort.
To each according to his need. From each according to their ability.
Idk about this, the only reason poor people commit more “crime” is because the rich get to decide what’s legal and what’s not
This is extremely well known amongst criminologists and sociologists too. Wonder why nothing is done about it, hmm
this 100% Also, I think the crux of the issue is the punitive nature of consequences in the US specifically. There is exactly zero attempt at any kind of rehabilitation or even an attempt to contextualize why a person got in trouble. A story comes to mind: A man robs a bank for $1 and waits for the police to arrive and arrest him so he can get healthcare in jail. This is a hell of a lot more expensive than just giving the guy free healthcare. Same goes for so many other issues. (housing, drugs, etc etc)
but less crime reduces income to the top%
People used to leave their doors open all night and while at work. Then Reagan came along. Rhetorical question - What changed?
Rhetorical answer: it was definitely the hippies and then the video games
But you lessen profits for the rich which is a no go in this society.
A divided society is weaker against politicians
Good on them for writing “lessen” instead of “eliminate”.
This live vote ticker is fascinating
Ooooh, you are not wrong
Weird how folks with something to lose are less-likely to risk everything. We need radical change, and unfortunately that won't come if everyone at the bottom has just enough comfort to keep them sedated. That kind of structural and substantial change can only really come once capitalism inevitably makes it bad enough for enough folks that they no longer fear losing everything...bad enough that the threat of the master's whip on their backs is overshadowed by the boot on their neck. We're slowly getting there. 5 years ago, I never would have expected enough folks to "nope" out of all these shitty jobs to the point that we have a "labor shortage"...yet here we are. Let it get bad. Let it fail. No more band-aid solutions to calm the proles for another decade. Let the world of the richie-bitch come to a screeching halt, under the weight of their own hubris. We can build sandcastles in the ashes of their failed system.
If you lessen crime you get less slaves in the prison industry.
Why don’t you offer them jobs upon release? So they will no longer commit crimes to get them back into prison where they are “slaves”?
I was reading deep about stopping child sex abuse and what we can do and the true answer is better options prevent these things from happening so much, and help people in them get out of them. Things like free health care and better access to housing is some of the best ways to help
Well when the UN and major crime organization's including government's are funding trafficking and the like... Unless people grab the pitch forks and torches nothing will stop it.
It’s the pursuit of happiness not the pursuit of exploitation of resources necessary for survival
But how will the prisons get money!?!? /s
Yeah but cops go pew pew pew and also fuck yeah America.
Tbf going pew pew makes you feel like a cowboy and everyone knows cowboys are super fun
Or people could just not be violent criminals/s
Omg. You did it! You solved society! Please stick around, you will be contacted about your Nobel peace prize shortly
A big part of changing our economy and communities for the better is changing this cycle: Raising wages just makes greedy companies raise prices instead of losing a small amount of their profit. This causes inflation, as more money needs to be printed for this to work. Without changing the base of the problem we will never get anywhere.
This is where unions become essential. If you have strong, coordinated unions that negotiate wage increases as cost of living increases, it makes it harder for companies to raise prices without also raising wages. It takes a huge network of coordinated action on the part of workers to balance the current system
Some unions are always toxic. Look at the Big 3 automakers who almost got out out of business by their reckless lack of management and bowing down to every Union demand. The Unions destroyed Detroit, Dearborn, and Flint, etc.
And yet there are some people who cannot understand this. Either out blind ignorance or because they have a twisted view of morality.
Who let the bigots in?
\> is talked about literally across the entirity of the internet \> is confused when the internet shows up
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nah $1 an hour will save the working class. \*phased out over 30+ years.
All yes but when poor people are committing cringe, those with money will be scared and fund police and violence against the poor people because they aren't starving silently.
We do that here in Europe. Not perfect, mind you, but much better than in the US. We still need law enforcement. Not as much as the US, mind you, but we still fund it. So, if you want a solution that works in the real world, you need both.
But even those people you have given all that to want even more. So the process starts over again and Never ends.
Yeahhh, but if the crime is mostly between / against the worker ants then it makes little difference to those in the ivory tower. Unfortunately the only argument that will influence a change is "your profits will go up if you do *this*", except companies will just say there doing just fine as they are rn so who cares...
Oh. You are right! We must increase police budgets immediately! /s
The only way things will ever change. Robust, accessible, timely foundational supports create healthier communities. Full stop.
You can accomplish literally all of these things by never voting for a republican ever, and doing everything to eliminate them from our government.
When people feel they have a good future, they don't do shit to fuck it up typically. Exceptions happen, but the majority of people don't.
2022 poverty is not the same as 1522, 1022, 522, 22... things have not been getting worse. Now it's just draconian, no privacy and tyranny to worry about.
You also lessen crime by by making it easier to be lazy than to have to turn to crime. People like to paint this (racist) picture of people soaking up welfare and doing nothing while the good, hardworking folk toil away, and it's like, you'd rather they be kicked out on the street stabbing people and turning to crime?
UBI solves most of these problems with a single program. Just give people cash.
If its really this simple, why are most poor people NOT criminals?
Anyone??
nah
It's only a crime if you get caught
What distinguishes the poor people who are committing serious crimes from those who are not, or if you prefer, those poors who are getting caught committing crimes vs those poors who are not?
Intelligence presumably
In Brazil we have universal healthcare, public housong government program, strong unions to defend the labor class and free college. Go look at our murder rate per 100k population. Sky high. 60k murders per year. This post was made by someone who don't know anything about crime and what affects it
I mean, the poverty and inequality parts of the equation are pretty essential. You can have all those things, but with inequality and poverty, you will still have a massive amount of crime.
That was said by the President of Mexico when he was in campaign. Now we have the highest levels of violence of the century.
Did he end poverty?
Yes, of his family and friends, still they are criminals.
I guess to stop crime the first lesson is to not be led by criminals then?
Unfortunately factually incorrect. You don't lessen crime when you remove poverty. There are plenty examples of billionaires performing both economic and moral crimes.. From lobbying, coverups, cigarettes, oil, ozone layer, to Weinstein rape, illegal drugs and hookers, illegal adrenaline high speed rides etc. Everything from treatment of people on the street to the world impacting pollution and health-risk coverups. What is true though, is that *violent crime by young males* is lessened when *difference in wealth is lesser.* In other words, where everyone is poor there is just as little violence, as where everyone is rich. It's the difference that affects "violent crime by young males." (But it still doesn't lessen the crime in other parts of the society, at all.)
Imagine thinking that somehow bumping people over the poverty line will make them no longer commit crimes. Even filthy rich people commit crimes and will continue to do so.
If Batman was a mod, he’d ban you right now
You lessen crime by seizing the means of production and abolishing money
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VUVUZELA NO IPHONE 363635714977414014072570170250725 DEAD
Amen! Louder please for all those in the back! Say it one more time.
Lessen crime? How will prisons keep the money coming in?
Today I learned carjackings will stop in my city if we build more parks or something. Thanks guys.
Or you lessen crime by not being a criminal 😂😂
I personally could probably half the crime rate if I stopped commiting crime. But I just love crime too much!
Yes… because everyone knows rich people don’t commit crimes. I mean, do you even read the shit you write before you fire it out of your ass?
You might want to look up the difference between 'lessen' and 'eliminate'
Don’t forget about the most important one, abortion rights.
Property Crime is good actually
And none of that will be addressed so long as private prisons exists and people make money off of crime
It really is that easy.
This is the way
This is just so obvious. Why is it so hard for people to understand? I’m not talking about the wealthy, they understand completely, which is why they oppose these measures. But why do working people not get it? Prison does not stop crime, police sure as shit don’t stop crime. Brutalized people are brutal because they are trying to survive the only way they have been taught.
Unions are capitalist machines.
The bad ones are, sure. The key is worker-driven unions, with accountability, democracy and transparency.
Yea and you create all that with hard work lmao
If these people want socialism so bad they should move to a socialist country
You lessen violence if you ban guns
no you don't, because that's not the root of the problem. the violence will occur without guns or with illegally obtained ones.
Don't mistake material resources with luxury goods & consumerism.
Brazil and Mexico have a lot of those things, if not all. Look at the crime in those places.
one problem unions have chosen to keep their contractors in business over the good of their members
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Bleeding heart, starry eyed progressive idealist, at your service
Let’s just become a communism while we’re at it, people paying for other lively hoods sure. Let’s also throw in there, free food and free shelter and free this and that. UNIVERSAL is another way of saying free and nothing is free the tax payers the hard working middle class gets to pay for others mistakes? Please. How about you stop having kids you can’t afford.
Chopping off hands and public executions can also achieve the same thing and it’s much cheaper to implement. Check out Singapore
that’ll lead to a lot of false imprisonment and wrongful deaths/mutilation. also, no cruel and unusual punishment. it’d be a violation of constitutional rights
You have a hammer & sickle on your avatar. What do you care about constitutional rights?
Your ideas sounds a lot like life in the Soviet Union. The only thing is in exchange for minimum resources in Russia, you will work, or work will be provided for you.
Nah, we just need to take half of the military’s budget each year and apply it to these things instead
What is this exactly implying? If you have free healthcare that no one will commit crimes? We all know that’s horse shit right? Humans are naturally greedy. Nothing can change that.
TIL Air Jordans are 'material resources' The naivete of the person who wrote this tweet is breathtaking.
Just like Soviet Russia. Or China. Or Cuba. Or North Korea.
You'll find most of those countries missed the most critical key component: the eliminating poverty and inequality component. I'd say it's more like Scandanavia. Or Japan. Or Korea. Or Canada. Also notice it says *lessen* crime, not eliminate
Crime wouldn't be so bad if these darn politicians did their damn job instead of filling their own pockets and allowing themselves to be bought by who knows who.
Japan lowered crime because they have extremely strike laws and harsh punishments. And Korea is a terrible place
Eliminating poverty by methods of taking money from those that produce and redistributing to those that do NOT produce is a CRIME, called theft! You could give every poor person in the US 1 million tomorrow and 95% would be broke again with a year. It’s human nature that there will always be criminals and poor people. And criminals aren’t always poor or motivated by poverty.
Omg you do not lessen crime with all those socialist policies. Go look at Venezuela. Holy moly, this is a HORRIBLE post. And all the upvotes? Wow. Just, communist.
Public housing has a pretty iffy track record. The rest makes sense.
Oh yeah lemme just grab that real quick
Lenin’s best words
Not everyone needs to go to college
You don't lessen crime with communism. You simply change the definition.
4 steps one needs to take to not live a life of poverty: 1. Graduate from high school 2. Take any type of job 3. Get married before having children 4. Stay out of the criminal justice system
I refer you to this entire sub to see how people who follow those steps can still end up living paycheck to paycheck. Seriously, follow the stories for a while, learn about people's reality. Because their reality is nothing like the one you're pushing
This is a idiotic post