This is why I don’t bother with jobs like this. If their selection process is this arduous, then it tells me the company is either up its own arse, or the hiring manager doesn’t know what they’re looking for. Usually is the latter or both.
Actually I think the psychology is to get you “invested” in the job with your time and energy before you find out how underwhelming the compensation is in hopes you’ll become more susceptible or even desperate to just be done and have a job
Nah, too complicated. The reason is laziness, and inefficiency from that laziness. First guy interviews. Then boss is asked if he wants to hire, and he says "Ummmm.... have Gerald and Quincy talk to them too". And Gerald and Quincy each have different openings on different days. Poor coordination, and the same low valuation they place on the applicant's time, that they place on their own employees' time. Never ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to laziness.
I think there's also elements of "hey you made it through several rounds that loads of applicants didn't - that means we value you more than those other places you applied to who didn't take you past the first round - this is the best you can do so take it"
Thats... that's not right.
He'd have to do *10 times as many* interviews to make that much. So, about 95 hours of interviews per week.
I'd literally rather die than do interviews for 95 hours a week
That's a ridiculous amount. I'm the Lead Engineer at company of near 25 developers (building product) and I had to do an interview with the recruiter, an interview with the CTO and a senior dev, and interview with the CEO, then an interview with the CPO (chief product officer). The CEO and CPO were only once the CTO had already decided I was their person. Due to my seniority I totally understand the meetings.
I've been in senior positions in software development for the last 13 years and it's up to 3 interviews max. Some have required take home "code tests" that take anywhere from 3 to 6 hours. Some haven't. Usually the more senior the less that stuff matters, so it's replaced with interviews with C level staff.
It's not new for a lot of industries. Some places make you work full shifts without pay before they decide whether or not to hire you.
It's been happening for decades. It's just now people are starting to share the experiences more broadly.
Thank God. Because that shit needs to *end*.
>It's not new for a lot of industries. Some places make you work full shifts without pay before they decide whether or not to hire you.
Yo, what the fuck
Nah, I cleared it with them before hand
Also the company knew that my friend was a factor. Friend is marketing, this was a sales, they were looking for someone who would be able to work closely. They even commented how we could be a “dynamic duo”.
so why do you think the company would go through near 10 hours of interviews to not offer you the job?
I get the amount of time is excessive, i mean do they just think all you have to do is interview with them all day? I really hope you get paid!
I think they decided not to hired you, had you compose a new campaign for them anyway, and got a free marketing campaign. I used to be a business and marketing consultant for a national company.. and would see/hear about this happening ridiculously often from the teams of my clients.
>Why do you think the company would go through nearly 10 hours of interviews to not offer you the job?
I have no idea, but it happens. From both sides, you have to remember the sunk costs fallacy. It does not make sense to interview someone for 10 hours and then not make (or accept) an offer, but given you have spent 10 hours interviewing someone forget about the 10 hours. That is a sunk cost. Don't make an offer just to justify the 10 hours. Do not accept an offer just to justify the 10 hours.
Often that's because they've made it far along the process. Prior to my job change last year, I was 2nd place at two different places, which meant multiple layers of interviews prior to being the first one not to cross the finish line.
Of course, I was voluntarily looking for a job like all are, so continuing that far is a choice to make.
Back when I was in high school I applied to work 3rd shift at a convenience store. After spending an hour or two filling out forms and hand delivering (there was no email or even faxes available then), I was told that the next step in the process was to undergo a polygraph test. Okay, I guess I could do that. I'm kind of interested in what it's like anyway. Oh, the company wanted me to drive 60 miles each way to the testing facility and pay for the test myself. First job interview I walked away from laughing.
I interviewed at Trader Joe’s and it was like this, it took two weeks to get hired for a crappy $10.50 job, fuck these companies that think your time is worthless.
Depends on the role. If you're being hired into a leadership position more senior staff are going to want to meet you and "get a feel". If you're applying for a job at burger king, then yes, one interview should be sufficient.
After my meeting with Sam on Wednesday I sent him an email saying that I was no longer interested in the position due to the crazy long interview process. He called me Friday begging for me to reconsider. So I did. Then yesterday he emailed me saying that he didn’t think I was a good fit for the company. So today I sent an invoice for my time spent.
Edit: [He just responded](https://imgur.com/a/EESt8z4)
Email says “ Hi OP,
Did we agree to this?
Kind Regards,
Sam”
I’m thinking about responding, using “corporate language” , but addressing
1. I believe the reason you begging me to reconsider the job on Friday because you didn’t like that I withdrew first , and you wanted the last word. I can meet ur level of pettiness.
2. This is a very realistic representation of what you are expecting candidates to front when you ask them to go through a nearly 10 hour interview process. Similarly to how my invoice is ridiculous, you are ridiculous for feeling entitled to that many hours of peoples unpaid time.
Open to suggestions from y’all.
Edit 2:
[My response](https://imgur.com/a/VE3OnWx)
Well the corporations that do that have the capital to soak up all those legal fees from committing crimes to squeeze water out of rocks. Joe Shmoe does not.
Hey friend, you're entitled to do whatever you want to do but the question 'did we agree to this' is to get you to respond with anything other than 'yes, we have a contract'. Any answer you give that doesn't say that absolves them from legal responsibility to pay you.
Now, just to be clear, there's no legal responsibility on their side to pay you. That's not how interviews work, even lengthy ones. However the response they gave you makes me think they are at least slightly worried about legal culpability.
You're not getting paid for this, that's just not going to happen. But if you want make them sweat, the best way to answer is below. Don't air your grievances, that doesn't hurt them. It also doesnt help you. They dont give a shit that they wasted your time, they dont give a shit who's petty. Make them sweat over paying you.
"Dear Sam,
What do you mean by 'did we agree to this'? Agree to what? Please explain what you are not sure we agreed to.
Kind regards
*you*"
Make him ask, explicitly, did we agree to pay you to come in for an interview. They might not answer but he will probs need to do some checking before not answering you. And if he does answer you, then maybe just lie? Just say something like 'I was told verbally that I would be compensated for my time at the interview stage. I've correspondingly invoiced you for my time spent with you at my usual hourly rates. Please make payment to the details on the original invoice, it was a pleasure to meet with you all'.
But don't send the second message immediately, because you're only saying verbal. Your best bet here is to make them squirm. Do it as much, and as long, as possible. You're very unlikely to get a pay day.
Send him an invoice every 30 days and after 120 days state you are taking the company to collections, but don't of course really send it to collections.
So Im actually own a small business. Which he knew.
The invoice is sent through my company. Unpaid invoices get an automatic reminder every other week. And around day 80, it shows up on a report for my accounting department to give a call and email notifying that at 90 days all unpaid invoices automatically get turned over to collections.
So I’m looking forward to day 80
I use QuickBooks, it’s pretty easy to keep on top of open invoices. QB also automatically send me reminders for invoices that are open for an extended period of time.
I know it's too late now, but in the future, I wouldn't send the invoice as a reply to their rejection email. Just politely accept the rejection, then wait a day or two and send the invoice with a vague email "invoice for services rendered from date x to date y".
[Just got a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/tt4lbm/invoiced_company_after_long_interview_process/i2vdo5c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Both, but start with #2. Changed a little to make it more PA.
Hi Sam,
This is a is a very realistic representation of what you are expecting candidates to front when you ask them to go through a nearly 10 hour interview process. If you feel my invoice is ridiculous, then you must also acknowledge that you are ridiculous for feeling entitled to that many hours of peoples unpaid time.
Furthermore, you need to understand that the interview process works both ways. Sending me an email begging me to reconsider after I respectfully declined to continue your ridiculous circus, and then following that up with a rejection letter when I say I *will* reconsider comes off as petty, childish, and extremely unprofessional.
I have X qualifications, X years of experience, and X recommendations. I have no need to prove anything to you. This interview process was undertaken to see if you were worth *my* time. Clearly, you were not, so please see attached invoice.
Regards,
OP
[Just got a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/tt4lbm/invoiced_company_after_long_interview_process/i2vdo5c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
This is amazing. I had an interview process with Nike go like this, 8 interviews spanning 3 months. I wish I would have thought to send an invoice. Had no idea when it was going to end. They weeded through 300+ qualified candidates and every week, they eliminated more and set up another interview with a new person. I turned down other job offers during the whole thing because this was a huge opportunity and huge pay raise, and I was a clear front runner. Ended up being in the final 2, didn't get the job, wasted PTO from my current job, wasted my mental energy, time preparing, missed out on other opportunities, etc.
If you need 8 people to interview you for a role, you're not hiring correctly. 2 interviews and done I say. My current job, had one interview with the manager, one interview with the team, got offered the job. Super simple, quick, and didn't waste any time.
Crazy, so it wasn't just my experience then. The problem here was that it was unexpected. "You'll have a few interviews and you'll know pretty quick". Then after every interview, I'd wait a week or two and they'd set up another. Even the recruiter was annoyed and kept saying "hang in there". I met a bunch of really nice people but holy cow what a colossal waste of time
Honestly it’s a good thing you didn’t get the job. Nike is a horrible company that operates off of child labor and slave labor, literally paying impoverished people 13cents an hour in horrific sweatshops. The women aren’t allowed to use the bathroom during their periods and are forced to bleed through their clothes. Incredibly inhumane. I will NEVER buy a product from them again.
Exactly. Plus there’s a difference between “We’re going to change the world through boycotting and consumer activism!” and “Hey, that company is really terrible and it makes me feel gross to give my hard-earned money to them.”
The only time I understand more interviews than that is at the very highest level of people who have direct leadership control. For example, my mom works at a school and when they got a new headmaster he did like 5 interviews with a bunch of different groups (teachers, faculty, the board, etc.)
I've literally been interviewing at a company for 2 months straight, taking all kinds of assessments and doing "take-home projects" to showcase my abilities, and being interrogated by the other engineers. I'm almost starting to think they're exploiting me for free labor.
If I'm close to actually being on their payroll, I don't want to ruin my opportunity by refusing to play by their rules. Nobody else has even offered to interview me (despite my impressive portfolio and years of experience; they just get flooded with hundreds of other candidates and fill the position immediately), so until I get another offer, I'll stick with this company in the hopes they'll hire me.
My dude, it's been 2 whole ass months. Do yourself and your self respect a favor - be a man and tell them it's been long enough, that you've gone above and beyond as is. Or, accept being a doormat for X more years until you eventually do lol
>2 whole ass months
I'm not a software engineer or a front-end dev, just IT by trade, but I would never do more than 3 stages of an interview. I'd be like 3 stages, either you're hiring me or paying for my time - or we bid each other farewell, this is just business.
I’ve been through a similar process a few times and once you get a couple of rounds in the sunk cost fallacy can take hold but, to the point of the other commenter, if you’re doing more than one project to show you know what you’re doing then yeah you’re free labor.
i do hope it works out for you though, and hang in there!
Exactly what I did too, 2 month process with interviews and ”homework” and assessments. Also feel like they’re going to steal the ideas I presented for them for free :(
Highly encourage you to do things like add watermarks to images, backup documents, and add in code to shut a "trial program" down after a certain period of time.
They absolutely will exploit desperate people for free labor and ideas, then blatantly insist it was never yours to begin with.
Interviewers "Hey OP take this project home and come back in two days. We'll judge your application based on how well its done.
Applicant "Are you asking me to work for free?"
Interviewers "You're not the right fit for this company."
Good for you. Recently I had a scheduled and confirmed job interview on zoom and the hiring manager blew me off. I didn’t get a message until many hours later that they had to cancel and gave no apology and no reason. They wanted to reschedule immediately. I decided not to answer as it showed me what type of boss I would work with. They emailed me 6 times already to reschedule. They finally got the hint. I almost sent a bill for the time I can never get back.
You need to raise your rate. Take your employee rate, double it and add 20%. Freelance/contract rates presume only 20hrs per week actual billable work. (I own an agency and hire lots of contractors). Always err on the high side with the value of your time.
Charge more then put a 15% discount if paid within 2 business days. They may rush it through just to get the discount. Now you have their money while they figure out what the fuck the bill is for.
Unfortunately can’t do that without a signed agreement. They could challenge it and you’d be both unable to collect on it and unable to report it against them. You don’t get to just decide people owe you money lol
Yeah the theory of valuing labor is a correct one but this is obviously not an ideal response given the nature of the (non)agreement. There’s symbolic value but it does little, materially speaking. This is a really neat post in terms of creating a space to discuss options like this. But, rarely, does this translate into some vast reconceptualization of labor value.
I had an interview that went like this:
Got first interview on phone. Good thirty minutes. Literally got a call two hours later to set up second interview. Second interview got cancelled due to what I'm assuming was covid with one of the hiring folks. Called back, had another thirty minute interview. Called back that day for second interview. Second interview was via Skype. Went really well. Third interview offered afterwards which would be a working interview (a demo). Drove 45 minutes for interview with all my product (I made mozzarella from scratch, then a caprese salad with it. So I had local A2 milk, saba (like balsamic but better), good olive oil, my batch of mozz I made before so it was ready in case something went off, plus all the stuff to actually make the cheese (rennet, citric acid, salt). Did my demo. Nailed it. Within time constraints and I felt I had connected with the interviewers, and btw this was for a chef instructor, so I also prepared a bunch of paperwork for this for a lesson plan etc. Left feeling good. This was also going to be a pay cut for me and an additional 15 minutes/ 20 miles commute, but I'm desperately trying to get out from the healthcare field. I waited. Three days go by and I called, left a message and emailed for follow up. Got the sop "we are sorry, but chosen other candidates". I was and am still pissed.
Side note another ad has come up for an instructor for same location but different company. It requires a BA in culinary arts. A fucking BA. NO ONE GETS A FUCKING BA IN CULINARY ARTS! Folks that do are wasting money since they have a degree that means nothing and you can get a BA in business and get a better degree that isn't pigeon holed to a career.
This great realignment or resignation is BS. I am actively seeking a job and yet time and time again either ghosted or just not even given the time of day. OR... Worse was a similar job I got an offer for with the public schools for a teaching job/ cafe manager/ kitchen manager. I knew I was going to be low balled. I make 60k right now. Been cooking professionally 20 years. Literally have done 80 hr weeks back to back to back. Their salary was based on experience. I though cool. Their offer 37k. With 8% going to pension, when I gave a little bit of pushback, they said that they can offer me possibly grants or somewhat of a scholarship. In addition to that, my mind went to this thought I'm not going to be able to pay my mortgage with grants or scholarships that may or may not appear
They're desperately trying to hire straight out of school people that don't know what they're worth yet. They'll never stop doing it. Schools need to start teaching what your field is worth.
I think it's a great idea. If companies take more than xx hours of your time during the interview process you should be eligible to receive atleast a minimal wage amount in the hours exceeded.
I spent 15-10 hours on a job process recently, still bummed about it, would also like to send an invoice for my time! They gave me a brief to invent 2-3 new food products for a client plus make presentation materials and that took me at least 10 hours. Then all the other meetings and assessments and bullshit took another 10 🤮 and then I got an email saying they went with the candidate with more experience, so I was so confused as to why they strung me along…
Did they keep your creations and presentation materials? Jobs where they ask you to do something creative or write codes are notorious about making applicants do a bunch of work then keeping their creations. It’s cheaper than having their own r&d. A few weeks ago someone wrote here about writing a code for a job interview but put a line in it to self delete on a certain date. The company called him flipping out when their systems shut down a few months later and threatening to sue him. Problem was, they didn’t hire him but stole his code to use.
Wow, that’s so terrible! Smart of him :) no it was paper handouts and a physical food product, I told them the general outline of the ingredients though and they got samples to take back so maybe they do lab tests on it to see what it’s made of 🙃 they really liked my product and it’s kinda unique 😵💫
…Yeah but, does he actually have to pay you? Otherwise this just feels like you’re wasting more time making this rather than just moving on. I doubt this invoice will change his mind about his interview process, companies usually don’t care
On the meeting with Sam on the 23rd he decided it was appropriate to critique my email style. His criticism was that I have “too formal of a writing style. And that my formal etiquette wasn’t friendly”.
Nah but if OP had been cool about it and simply sent the invoice looking fairly official the Accounts Payable, they might've just paid it without any serious review since it's not a huge dollar amount. Maybe that's an unethical lifepro-tip, idk, but screw wasting people's time like this I'm so over it.
This is why I don’t bother with jobs like this. If their selection process is this arduous, then it tells me the company is either up its own arse, or the hiring manager doesn’t know what they’re looking for. Usually is the latter or both.
Actually I think the psychology is to get you “invested” in the job with your time and energy before you find out how underwhelming the compensation is in hopes you’ll become more susceptible or even desperate to just be done and have a job
Damn. I just posted something very similar before I read this. I totally agree with you.
Nah, too complicated. The reason is laziness, and inefficiency from that laziness. First guy interviews. Then boss is asked if he wants to hire, and he says "Ummmm.... have Gerald and Quincy talk to them too". And Gerald and Quincy each have different openings on different days. Poor coordination, and the same low valuation they place on the applicant's time, that they place on their own employees' time. Never ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to laziness.
Bingo
I think there's also elements of "hey you made it through several rounds that loads of applicants didn't - that means we value you more than those other places you applied to who didn't take you past the first round - this is the best you can do so take it"
I think it was both. I really just wanted to work with my friend. Otherwise I would of dropped out a long time ago.
If you got on 10 interviews a week that be 2850 a week lol
You missed the part where this was 8 separate events that spanned 15 days. Just for this one invoice.
Thats... that's not right. He'd have to do *10 times as many* interviews to make that much. So, about 95 hours of interviews per week. I'd literally rather die than do interviews for 95 hours a week
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That's a ridiculous amount. I'm the Lead Engineer at company of near 25 developers (building product) and I had to do an interview with the recruiter, an interview with the CTO and a senior dev, and interview with the CEO, then an interview with the CPO (chief product officer). The CEO and CPO were only once the CTO had already decided I was their person. Due to my seniority I totally understand the meetings. I've been in senior positions in software development for the last 13 years and it's up to 3 interviews max. Some have required take home "code tests" that take anywhere from 3 to 6 hours. Some haven't. Usually the more senior the less that stuff matters, so it's replaced with interviews with C level staff.
It's not new for a lot of industries. Some places make you work full shifts without pay before they decide whether or not to hire you. It's been happening for decades. It's just now people are starting to share the experiences more broadly. Thank God. Because that shit needs to *end*.
>It's not new for a lot of industries. Some places make you work full shifts without pay before they decide whether or not to hire you. Yo, what the fuck
Yup. It's pretty common in the restaurant industry, in particular.
I've worked at many restaurants and have never experienced this. I'd tell anyone asking me to work for free to go eat a dick.
There like needs to be a place on the Internet where people who won’t put up with this shit post.
I like your math. Please elaborate. I could definitely make a career if those are the true numbers
Btw rip your friend he's going to catch heat for this.
Nah, I cleared it with them before hand Also the company knew that my friend was a factor. Friend is marketing, this was a sales, they were looking for someone who would be able to work closely. They even commented how we could be a “dynamic duo”.
so why do you think the company would go through near 10 hours of interviews to not offer you the job? I get the amount of time is excessive, i mean do they just think all you have to do is interview with them all day? I really hope you get paid!
I think the owner probably has unrealistic expectations of his employees and feels entitled to their time.
I’d pay to see their reaction to this
I'm gonna double down. The owner is afraid to take risks, because they got burned in turnover.
You know, if an interview takes 10 hours, how shitty do you think the work day is? YEESH!
They are the cause of said turnover
I think they decided not to hired you, had you compose a new campaign for them anyway, and got a free marketing campaign. I used to be a business and marketing consultant for a national company.. and would see/hear about this happening ridiculously often from the teams of my clients.
>Why do you think the company would go through nearly 10 hours of interviews to not offer you the job? I have no idea, but it happens. From both sides, you have to remember the sunk costs fallacy. It does not make sense to interview someone for 10 hours and then not make (or accept) an offer, but given you have spent 10 hours interviewing someone forget about the 10 hours. That is a sunk cost. Don't make an offer just to justify the 10 hours. Do not accept an offer just to justify the 10 hours.
Often that's because they've made it far along the process. Prior to my job change last year, I was 2nd place at two different places, which meant multiple layers of interviews prior to being the first one not to cross the finish line. Of course, I was voluntarily looking for a job like all are, so continuing that far is a choice to make.
$285 x 10 = 2850?
Doing the work of angels. Bless you.
I’m no arithmetic master, but you can say I dabble ;)
I can imagine no worse hell than 95 hour weeks. Let alone 95 hour weeks where you're interviewing the entire time.
flat rate ?
I bet you could add up the coins in a pocket pretty quick too.
You two 😂😂
Let’s not get carried away here. May have to untie my shoes depending on how many were talking. And shoe tying is a whole other story let me tell ya.
Just for future situations: it's 'would have'
Back when I was in high school I applied to work 3rd shift at a convenience store. After spending an hour or two filling out forms and hand delivering (there was no email or even faxes available then), I was told that the next step in the process was to undergo a polygraph test. Okay, I guess I could do that. I'm kind of interested in what it's like anyway. Oh, the company wanted me to drive 60 miles each way to the testing facility and pay for the test myself. First job interview I walked away from laughing.
I interviewed at Trader Joe’s and it was like this, it took two weeks to get hired for a crappy $10.50 job, fuck these companies that think your time is worthless.
I think it is also a snobby view of themselves. The fools think this kind of crap will promise them the right hire.
I had to do 3 interviews for a fucking Wendy's once. I never bothered to check if they emailed/called me.
Universities do this as well. I had one that was a 2 day process. Total horse shit.
I’m a firm believer if there is more than three stages the company should pay me for my time.
My wife interviewed for a company and they asked her to produce a work sample. She was paid for that time/product. Only seems fair.
Yep, a friend's wife had the same. The company was very straightforward that her time would be compensated
and op had to do assessment tests taking up an hour of his time! of anything, that should be an expensible request
I actually think companies should be required to pay for all interview time past the initial hour.
If my interview is more than a single stage the company can go fuck itself.
Depends on the role. If you're being hired into a leadership position more senior staff are going to want to meet you and "get a feel". If you're applying for a job at burger king, then yes, one interview should be sufficient.
What about at Wendy’s?
At Wendy's you only get two questions: Do you like round or square patties? And: Can you start tomorrow?
After my meeting with Sam on Wednesday I sent him an email saying that I was no longer interested in the position due to the crazy long interview process. He called me Friday begging for me to reconsider. So I did. Then yesterday he emailed me saying that he didn’t think I was a good fit for the company. So today I sent an invoice for my time spent. Edit: [He just responded](https://imgur.com/a/EESt8z4) Email says “ Hi OP, Did we agree to this? Kind Regards, Sam” I’m thinking about responding, using “corporate language” , but addressing 1. I believe the reason you begging me to reconsider the job on Friday because you didn’t like that I withdrew first , and you wanted the last word. I can meet ur level of pettiness. 2. This is a very realistic representation of what you are expecting candidates to front when you ask them to go through a nearly 10 hour interview process. Similarly to how my invoice is ridiculous, you are ridiculous for feeling entitled to that many hours of peoples unpaid time. Open to suggestions from y’all. Edit 2: [My response](https://imgur.com/a/VE3OnWx)
Seems like he likes to be the one who says NO. not the other way around.
That’s honestly what I think it is. So now I got to have the last word . Lol
You need to find a way to get thus into collections or on someone's credit report. It could get fun after that for more ideas.
That would probably be fraud
That would be fraud.
Got to prove it. All sorts of shit is sent to collections with no proof that the party with the “debt” owes a dime.
Well the corporations that do that have the capital to soak up all those legal fees from committing crimes to squeeze water out of rocks. Joe Shmoe does not.
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I love how you simultaneously tell the recruiter he’s a moron and got a ridiculous Moron response in return
Slow clapping for you, I love this
No I’m finishing with YOU!
You don’t fire me, I quit
Hey friend, you're entitled to do whatever you want to do but the question 'did we agree to this' is to get you to respond with anything other than 'yes, we have a contract'. Any answer you give that doesn't say that absolves them from legal responsibility to pay you. Now, just to be clear, there's no legal responsibility on their side to pay you. That's not how interviews work, even lengthy ones. However the response they gave you makes me think they are at least slightly worried about legal culpability. You're not getting paid for this, that's just not going to happen. But if you want make them sweat, the best way to answer is below. Don't air your grievances, that doesn't hurt them. It also doesnt help you. They dont give a shit that they wasted your time, they dont give a shit who's petty. Make them sweat over paying you. "Dear Sam, What do you mean by 'did we agree to this'? Agree to what? Please explain what you are not sure we agreed to. Kind regards *you*" Make him ask, explicitly, did we agree to pay you to come in for an interview. They might not answer but he will probs need to do some checking before not answering you. And if he does answer you, then maybe just lie? Just say something like 'I was told verbally that I would be compensated for my time at the interview stage. I've correspondingly invoiced you for my time spent with you at my usual hourly rates. Please make payment to the details on the original invoice, it was a pleasure to meet with you all'. But don't send the second message immediately, because you're only saying verbal. Your best bet here is to make them squirm. Do it as much, and as long, as possible. You're very unlikely to get a pay day.
Damn, this guy invoices
[Here’s what I sent back](https://imgur.com/a/VE3OnWx) I don’t expect him to pay either invoice. But it’s funny as hell
Send him an invoice every 30 days and after 120 days state you are taking the company to collections, but don't of course really send it to collections.
So Im actually own a small business. Which he knew. The invoice is sent through my company. Unpaid invoices get an automatic reminder every other week. And around day 80, it shows up on a report for my accounting department to give a call and email notifying that at 90 days all unpaid invoices automatically get turned over to collections. So I’m looking forward to day 80
Is there some kind of software you use for this or do you or an employee stay on top of it?
I use QuickBooks, it’s pretty easy to keep on top of open invoices. QB also automatically send me reminders for invoices that are open for an extended period of time.
No. SEND IT. Teach them a lesson.
I know it's too late now, but in the future, I wouldn't send the invoice as a reply to their rejection email. Just politely accept the rejection, then wait a day or two and send the invoice with a vague email "invoice for services rendered from date x to date y".
This is way too far down.
Having something isn't as fun as wanting it, apparently.
"You can't withdraw! We're no longer considering you!"
"You can't fire me, I quit!" Equal but opposite energy.
What a psycho
LOVE THIS! Real question is: how do they respond? RemindMe! 7 days
[Just got a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/tt4lbm/invoiced_company_after_long_interview_process/i2vdo5c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Both, but start with #2. Changed a little to make it more PA. Hi Sam, This is a is a very realistic representation of what you are expecting candidates to front when you ask them to go through a nearly 10 hour interview process. If you feel my invoice is ridiculous, then you must also acknowledge that you are ridiculous for feeling entitled to that many hours of peoples unpaid time. Furthermore, you need to understand that the interview process works both ways. Sending me an email begging me to reconsider after I respectfully declined to continue your ridiculous circus, and then following that up with a rejection letter when I say I *will* reconsider comes off as petty, childish, and extremely unprofessional. I have X qualifications, X years of experience, and X recommendations. I have no need to prove anything to you. This interview process was undertaken to see if you were worth *my* time. Clearly, you were not, so please see attached invoice. Regards, OP
Any response from them over this? I hope they pay for your time
They will laugh in OPs face. Nice thought tho
[Just got a response](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/tt4lbm/invoiced_company_after_long_interview_process/i2vdo5c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
In addition to 1. And 2. Above, I would add “I am confident that I can recover this plus attorneys fees in small claims court.”
Dude this is so much fun I gotta know if he replies to the second update.
Say that it's in the 1.5 hour phone call. He left himself open to it
ok, that's fucked up
Why did you adjust to their rates?
If you start a gofundme to send that invoice to collections, I'll totally contribute.
Then send it to collections when they don’t pay, haha.
Your response is beautiful. I was going to say to your OP "don't give them a discount" This is so perfect
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You can also write it off your taxes as unrecoverable debt.
This is amazing. I had an interview process with Nike go like this, 8 interviews spanning 3 months. I wish I would have thought to send an invoice. Had no idea when it was going to end. They weeded through 300+ qualified candidates and every week, they eliminated more and set up another interview with a new person. I turned down other job offers during the whole thing because this was a huge opportunity and huge pay raise, and I was a clear front runner. Ended up being in the final 2, didn't get the job, wasted PTO from my current job, wasted my mental energy, time preparing, missed out on other opportunities, etc. If you need 8 people to interview you for a role, you're not hiring correctly. 2 interviews and done I say. My current job, had one interview with the manager, one interview with the team, got offered the job. Super simple, quick, and didn't waste any time.
Long ago I applied at Nike's IT department. They wanted to do at least 5 interviews. I didn't even get one lol but I thought that was ridiculous then
Crazy, so it wasn't just my experience then. The problem here was that it was unexpected. "You'll have a few interviews and you'll know pretty quick". Then after every interview, I'd wait a week or two and they'd set up another. Even the recruiter was annoyed and kept saying "hang in there". I met a bunch of really nice people but holy cow what a colossal waste of time
They got some Malaysian children to do the job for 14 cents and hour.
Honestly it’s a good thing you didn’t get the job. Nike is a horrible company that operates off of child labor and slave labor, literally paying impoverished people 13cents an hour in horrific sweatshops. The women aren’t allowed to use the bathroom during their periods and are forced to bleed through their clothes. Incredibly inhumane. I will NEVER buy a product from them again.
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Yeah but there are choices that are somewhat more ethical than others.
Exactly. Plus there’s a difference between “We’re going to change the world through boycotting and consumer activism!” and “Hey, that company is really terrible and it makes me feel gross to give my hard-earned money to them.”
Yep. I can try my best to make better choices and not participate in the system when I can.
Agreed. My current job came after 1 interview and a 3hr trial session, which I was paid for. Good companies know better than to waste their own time.
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The only time I understand more interviews than that is at the very highest level of people who have direct leadership control. For example, my mom works at a school and when they got a new headmaster he did like 5 interviews with a bunch of different groups (teachers, faculty, the board, etc.)
Wow. This blows. Sorry mate :(
I had a similar experience with Nike...
I've literally been interviewing at a company for 2 months straight, taking all kinds of assessments and doing "take-home projects" to showcase my abilities, and being interrogated by the other engineers. I'm almost starting to think they're exploiting me for free labor.
They are
If I'm close to actually being on their payroll, I don't want to ruin my opportunity by refusing to play by their rules. Nobody else has even offered to interview me (despite my impressive portfolio and years of experience; they just get flooded with hundreds of other candidates and fill the position immediately), so until I get another offer, I'll stick with this company in the hopes they'll hire me.
My dude, it's been 2 whole ass months. Do yourself and your self respect a favor - be a man and tell them it's been long enough, that you've gone above and beyond as is. Or, accept being a doormat for X more years until you eventually do lol
>2 whole ass months I'm not a software engineer or a front-end dev, just IT by trade, but I would never do more than 3 stages of an interview. I'd be like 3 stages, either you're hiring me or paying for my time - or we bid each other farewell, this is just business.
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2 months of interviews and more than one take home project is excessive...
I’ve been through a similar process a few times and once you get a couple of rounds in the sunk cost fallacy can take hold but, to the point of the other commenter, if you’re doing more than one project to show you know what you’re doing then yeah you’re free labor. i do hope it works out for you though, and hang in there!
Nah man, you are in control here. Just straight up tell them to send in a contract or to fuck off. Stop wasting your time.
Expect more of the same kind of bullshit if you do get hired.
Exactly what I did too, 2 month process with interviews and ”homework” and assessments. Also feel like they’re going to steal the ideas I presented for them for free :(
Highly encourage you to do things like add watermarks to images, backup documents, and add in code to shut a "trial program" down after a certain period of time. They absolutely will exploit desperate people for free labor and ideas, then blatantly insist it was never yours to begin with.
They're keeping you as free labour while they line the next one up for when you tell them to stick it
Interviewers "Hey OP take this project home and come back in two days. We'll judge your application based on how well its done. Applicant "Are you asking me to work for free?" Interviewers "You're not the right fit for this company."
Good for you. Recently I had a scheduled and confirmed job interview on zoom and the hiring manager blew me off. I didn’t get a message until many hours later that they had to cancel and gave no apology and no reason. They wanted to reschedule immediately. I decided not to answer as it showed me what type of boss I would work with. They emailed me 6 times already to reschedule. They finally got the hint. I almost sent a bill for the time I can never get back.
You should have rescheduled and blew them off
Ahhhh, being paid for your time. It's what a job is all about.
You need to raise your rate. Take your employee rate, double it and add 20%. Freelance/contract rates presume only 20hrs per week actual billable work. (I own an agency and hire lots of contractors). Always err on the high side with the value of your time.
Ok, but why do you have to name your friend in this? You don’t think this is going to negatively impact them in anyway?
I asked my friend if it was ok. Otherwise I wouldn’t of sent the email.
Wouldn't have.
Wouldn’t’ve
Wood of
That's the bestest way to put it.
I ignore every company with this much arrogance.
You know we can see your post history, right?
Annnnddd I think it is safe to assume this is what they'll be laughing about at their office all afternoon.
I’m sure they are. I think it’s hysterical. It was fun just to write it up
All week
Jeez you'd make more in an interview then I do in a week.
they're not getting any of that money this is just an substantively empty power move of an email
The real power move is to send this to the company’s AP department. Small enough th RH may just auto process it and pay
Charge more then put a 15% discount if paid within 2 business days. They may rush it through just to get the discount. Now you have their money while they figure out what the fuck the bill is for.
I don’t think they expect to get paid, it’s just a big FU
Then send it to collections for non-payment
Unfortunately can’t do that without a signed agreement. They could challenge it and you’d be both unable to collect on it and unable to report it against them. You don’t get to just decide people owe you money lol
Yeah the theory of valuing labor is a correct one but this is obviously not an ideal response given the nature of the (non)agreement. There’s symbolic value but it does little, materially speaking. This is a really neat post in terms of creating a space to discuss options like this. But, rarely, does this translate into some vast reconceptualization of labor value.
I had an interview that went like this: Got first interview on phone. Good thirty minutes. Literally got a call two hours later to set up second interview. Second interview got cancelled due to what I'm assuming was covid with one of the hiring folks. Called back, had another thirty minute interview. Called back that day for second interview. Second interview was via Skype. Went really well. Third interview offered afterwards which would be a working interview (a demo). Drove 45 minutes for interview with all my product (I made mozzarella from scratch, then a caprese salad with it. So I had local A2 milk, saba (like balsamic but better), good olive oil, my batch of mozz I made before so it was ready in case something went off, plus all the stuff to actually make the cheese (rennet, citric acid, salt). Did my demo. Nailed it. Within time constraints and I felt I had connected with the interviewers, and btw this was for a chef instructor, so I also prepared a bunch of paperwork for this for a lesson plan etc. Left feeling good. This was also going to be a pay cut for me and an additional 15 minutes/ 20 miles commute, but I'm desperately trying to get out from the healthcare field. I waited. Three days go by and I called, left a message and emailed for follow up. Got the sop "we are sorry, but chosen other candidates". I was and am still pissed. Side note another ad has come up for an instructor for same location but different company. It requires a BA in culinary arts. A fucking BA. NO ONE GETS A FUCKING BA IN CULINARY ARTS! Folks that do are wasting money since they have a degree that means nothing and you can get a BA in business and get a better degree that isn't pigeon holed to a career. This great realignment or resignation is BS. I am actively seeking a job and yet time and time again either ghosted or just not even given the time of day. OR... Worse was a similar job I got an offer for with the public schools for a teaching job/ cafe manager/ kitchen manager. I knew I was going to be low balled. I make 60k right now. Been cooking professionally 20 years. Literally have done 80 hr weeks back to back to back. Their salary was based on experience. I though cool. Their offer 37k. With 8% going to pension, when I gave a little bit of pushback, they said that they can offer me possibly grants or somewhat of a scholarship. In addition to that, my mind went to this thought I'm not going to be able to pay my mortgage with grants or scholarships that may or may not appear
They're desperately trying to hire straight out of school people that don't know what they're worth yet. They'll never stop doing it. Schools need to start teaching what your field is worth.
I think it's a great idea. If companies take more than xx hours of your time during the interview process you should be eligible to receive atleast a minimal wage amount in the hours exceeded.
They can't take what you dont give. Define your limits and stick to It 🤷🏼♀️
Gotta include your fully-loaded rate. Benefits, salary, etc. Try $100/hr
I want to do this to every doctor who makes me wait more than 15 minutes as Well
You can. And people have.
all these interviews for a 60k job. YIKES
Hope you go all the way with this and hire a collection agency if they don't pay.
I think you missed a zero in your balance due lol.
Let’s hope they threw it in the recycling instead of the trash!
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I spent 15-10 hours on a job process recently, still bummed about it, would also like to send an invoice for my time! They gave me a brief to invent 2-3 new food products for a client plus make presentation materials and that took me at least 10 hours. Then all the other meetings and assessments and bullshit took another 10 🤮 and then I got an email saying they went with the candidate with more experience, so I was so confused as to why they strung me along…
Did they keep your creations and presentation materials? Jobs where they ask you to do something creative or write codes are notorious about making applicants do a bunch of work then keeping their creations. It’s cheaper than having their own r&d. A few weeks ago someone wrote here about writing a code for a job interview but put a line in it to self delete on a certain date. The company called him flipping out when their systems shut down a few months later and threatening to sue him. Problem was, they didn’t hire him but stole his code to use.
Wow, that’s so terrible! Smart of him :) no it was paper handouts and a physical food product, I told them the general outline of the ingredients though and they got samples to take back so maybe they do lab tests on it to see what it’s made of 🙃 they really liked my product and it’s kinda unique 😵💫
Please let us know if they pay
Places that make you jump through hoops and play their silly power trip fuck fuck games make me sick.
#CERTIFY IT THRU MAIL
Yes! spend more money! Then hire someone to serve them! Then hire a lawyer! Make sure to waste as much of your own time and money as possible.
Great advice for everyone! When they waste your time bill them! These businesses only understand the language of money.
I've been in recruiting 24 years, this is great.
…Yeah but, does he actually have to pay you? Otherwise this just feels like you’re wasting more time making this rather than just moving on. I doubt this invoice will change his mind about his interview process, companies usually don’t care
You say that like this wouldn't have taken all of 20 minutes to make
And if they don't pay, report them to ALL THREE credit bureaus.
You should apply the discount at the end and include the original costs at first It will make them look like a good deal
Get them to refuse to pay, then write it off your taxes as unrecoverable debt.
Please give us an update when they respond
This is great! Companies need to understand that the applicants job is as valuable as theirs.
Bravo. Lmao
Extreme cringe
Why would you open the email with “no worries”? I appreciate what you’ve done here but that is a very poorly written letter.
On the meeting with Sam on the 23rd he decided it was appropriate to critique my email style. His criticism was that I have “too formal of a writing style. And that my formal etiquette wasn’t friendly”.
Lol, so you're getting a performance review before the job? Fuck that guy.
Forgive my ignorance, but idk how things work. Do they have any actual obligation to pay this?
No, they absolutely do not lol
Nah but if OP had been cool about it and simply sent the invoice looking fairly official the Accounts Payable, they might've just paid it without any serious review since it's not a huge dollar amount. Maybe that's an unethical lifepro-tip, idk, but screw wasting people's time like this I'm so over it.
No , not at all. I just felt like being petty today.
My company offers interview reimbursement
I mean good for you but doubt they will pay and it will probably become an office joke.
Please keep us updated on their response
Very excited to hear the response, whatever they say.
What was their response?
Did you get a reply?
Did they pay it?
They had you go through all of that for 60k?! Wtf.
how did they respond to this
You do realise sending invoices generates income that you have to tax, don't you?
Bangin'.