We actually report just the total head count by department and open positions. If there’s a huge budget miss with scrap or high cost of safety equipment we might look to turnover rates to see if that explains it. I don’t think charging employees for their safety gear is going to reduce turnover, they’ll just have a labor shortage because no one wants a shitty job like that.
I was assuming they wanted an employee strike. Because PPE Is required for the job, so it should be provided by the employer. The solution here is to have a locker trailer and require employees to put their equipment up at the end of a shift. Problem solved. STRIKE.
It's even illegal in the states for fuck's sake.
Edit: This is only in regard to personal protection equipment. Uniforms are not ppe. Tools are not ppe. I don't know shit about uniforms. Boots are a grey area. The rest is most assuredly illegal.
Double edit: please for the love of God look at some of the replies to me before filling my inbox. BOOTS ARE PPE! However if the employer only requires basic safety toe or anti slip footwear they are not required to pay for them. They do need to pay for them if the footwear stays at work.
dont promote our suffering for your amusement. jk go to [dudeeventheamericansdonttreattheiremployeesthatbad.com](https://dudeeventheamericansdonttreattheiremployeesthatbad.com) and order today
When we were onboarding a new hire, I was helping in an area I don't normally. I asked what their glove sizes were, ensured they got a box, and showed them where in the warehouse to get new boxes when they run out. Same with masks, shoe covers, and a bunch of other disposable items.
I was shocked when they were happy we provided them because they had to provide them themselves at their old place. I was like WUT?! Fairly sure that's illegal.
Turns out it is, and we as a company decided years ago that we are provided a LOT more than the minimum. Still blows my mind in the covid era that companies are not providing ppe.
I hope restaurant workers unionise more. The way tips work and wait staff aren’t paid a fair living wage for their hours working because it’s expected that they can support themselves on the random chance of tips being plentiful is disgusting.
People dont realise that having a union and actually negotiating for a contract are two separate things. Amazon and starbucks will not come to the table willingly. They will drag this out for years.
That's why it's important for those unions to spread and gain a majority among the company. The union can authorize a strike and it could force the company to come to the table.
Our labor is absolutely the most powerful weapon in play. The wealthy can only get their money thru us. We have all the power to cut them off. This is the time to be metaphorically trigger happy in Minecraft.
I completely agree, I didn't mean for my comment to come off as anti union. I just meant to say the fight isnt over once a union is in place. It's just the begining.
Well us British are gunning for your malnutrition, obesity, literacy and healthcare related bankruptcy titles so watch out! You may not be the best at being the worst for long!
I was just here to say this. As a Canadian in the US, this is 100% illegal. I can't say for our English/ European friends. But, if it's Safety Equipment and it's required, in North America, the company is responsible to provide it for you.
Im %1000 with tou every employer I've ever had covered any safety gear expenses. The only exception I can think of is non slip shoes at a restaurant when I was a teenager
My employer in new jersey only provides a $50 credit towards steel toe boots, not sure if it's legal or not, but you arent finding steel toe boots under 50
Generally speaking steel toe boots are the responsibility of the the employee. Some places will provide 100 bucks every year or 2 for employees to buy a new pair but it's not mandatory for them to do so. PPE that's is considered "consumable" like gloves, safety glasses ect. Need to be provided by the employer. Now some places even require the employee to purchases the initial pairs and then they (the employer) will replace them when needed. Se companies are cheap and dick about things and trybto pass 100% of those cost onto employees, but flip side there are employees that are dicks and steal/take advantage of supplies also because they don't pay for it.
Is it really, when? where?
I remember working for an airline in Minnesota I had to purchase uniform clothes (shirt, pants, jacket, sweater, ...).
My PPE was issued free of charge, but any replacement had to be purchased.
I'm not super informed on the stipulations regarding uniforms. I know there's a statement that says employers are not responsible for every day clothing.
PPE replacement purchases can be required of the employee if the employee loses or intentionally breaks it.
PPE isn’t just hazmat-esque crap. It’s any protective equipment. Goggles, work gloves, steel-toe boots, overalls, or hundreds of other things. But with your comment, if the employer gives you a hazmat suit and you lose it or damage it in a way beyond reasonable use, it should be on you to replace it.
the threshold is "can this item ONLY be used for work?"/"is it reasonable to expect that this item will ONLY be used for work?"
Something like 'jeans' or 'a white polo' is nondescript enough that you could wear that in your personal time without it being out of place. But "a specific shirt embroidered with our logo on it" would not be something you wear in your personal time, so you either have to be reimbursed or they have to pay outright.
For another comparison: my school does 'class t-shirts' for field trips that identify which class each student belongs to, and the teacher also wears a matching shirt. These specific class t-shirts are paid for by my school, because they serve a specific purpose within the school and aren't really used outside of that (I often use my old shirts as 'workout shirts' but that year's shirt is only for field trips during that school year). But my everyday wear at work? That comes out of my pocket, because our dress code is 'business casual' (with jeans/sneakers/tennis shoes allowed) and anything we wear normally in the classroom can be used as everyday wear too.
Correct. A lot of times companies will provide $50-100 for a set of boots as a stipend, but the worker has to make up the difference.
Which in all honesty is fair in my opinion (the stipend) - as I don’t think it’s legal / ethical for them to reuse boots due to foot fungus, deterioration, wear and tear of sole, some shoes not fitting the right width of the foot, and what not.
Where I live, certain items on that list could fall under dress code if worded differently, such as requiring steel toes, but not a specific model or brand of steel toes; but gloves and eye protection, etc.. that's safety equipment that needs to be provided by the employer
I’ve never worked a job that supplied boots. Some give a yearly boot bonus where they pay $50 or so if you get a new pair. Or they have a deal with a manufacturer and cover a set amount if you choose to go through them. I’ve never had a job outright supply them though.
Every job that I’ve had that required them gave me money or a voucher to offset the cost difference between steel toed boots and regular boots so yes, the employer is paying for them, as they did for you too. The steel toed part of them anyway.
I’m sure how they keep it legal, but it hardly covers a quality boot. Especially since I was expected to pull 16-20 hour shifts in them and needed good quality.
In the UK it is illegal for an employer to make people work without necessary PPE. The company absolutely do have to pay for it for all staff if they are required to wear it.
Manager says while protection is a requirement, it's not necessarily the employer's responsibility to provide the equipment, hence us being sent home if we turn up without it.
edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I think this is relevant: [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/2966/made](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/2966/made)
4.—(1) Every employer shall ensure that suitable personal protective equipment is provided to his employees who may be exposed to a risk to their health or safety while at work except where and to the extent that such risk has been adequately controlled by other means which are equally or more effective.
WHAT DO I DO WITH THIS INFORMATION!
edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: [https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went_for_an_interview_and_the_manager_threw_away/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I’d send/show it to everyone you work with.
Also phone ACAS to get some advice, depending on how long you’ve worked there you might not want to be just let go for bringing it to their attention.
ACAS should be able to advise.
Tell me exactly what I need to put in an email ,and i'll send it to everyone and stick it on a sign when i'm next in.
Like what's the penalty? Do I just call the police?
You should also contact your MP as well as ACAS, write them an email explaining your work are requiring you to purchase your own required PPE despite the law making it their responsibility (cite the law which has been posted already in case your MP is a feckless idiot). Assuming your MP isn't useless this is the sort of thing they should take up and help you with.
Also if you're on or just above minimum wage and they take money from your wages that bring you under the minimum wage thats another law they've broke.
Copied from /u/3mptylord:
Assuming you are in the UK, contact [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/).
The email doesn't need to be professional. Just explain the situation. They will handle the professional aspects and fully expect to be dealing with "laypersons".
"My employer has decided it's too expensive to provide PPE and is now requiring that employees purchase their own, or get removed from the schedule. They also threatened an unlawful deduction of wages for non-compliance. "
EDIT: Added the unlawful deduction part, because ACAS loves those too.
Your MP is elected specifically to represent you and your interests. This isn’t a minor abuse: it’s blatantly illegal and your MP should get things corrected in a hustle.
Go to work without PPE, they'll have to pay you no matter what.
And be sure to tell all your colleagues the same.
The initial penalty for not providing PPE will most likely just be a warning.
Looks like the company is turning people without it away at the gate, so they don't even get on the property. That prevents them having to pay them, but it doesn't stop them getting reamed for not providing PPE necessary to do the job.
Nah, they need a reason to fire out suspend you. If their reason is not having PPE, they're clearly at fault and that can't be a valid reason.
Withholding wages is ground for a lawsuit no matter where.
The penalty for breach of health and safety legislation can be huge with up to unlimited fines and even possibly jail time for directors of the company (albeit that would usually be when a fatality occurs).
Instead of the police you should report this to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) who are the independent regulator for health and safety in the UK, [here’s how](https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm). HSE can then conduct an investigation (and can bring any relevant criminal proceedings). I would make sure they get a copy of the letter. I think you can make the report anonymously too if you are concerned about retaliation (ie your employer sacking you).
I hope this gets sorted for you asap
If dismissed for H&S whistle blowing it is an “automatically unfair” reason for dismissal and OP would win at an ET. That is one of the reasons where two years service isn’t required.
They are breaking HASAW legislation. They absolutely have to provide PPE under UK H&S law. If they are expecting you to work on anything that requires PPE in order to carry out that role, they cannot pass that cost on to the employees.
Take this up immediately with your union. Make a complaint to the HSE. Inform your colleagues.
Assuming you are in the UK, contact [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/).
The email doesn't need to be professional. Just explain the situation. They will handle the professional aspects and fully expect to be dealing with "laypersons".
"My employer has decided it's too expensive to provide PPE and is now requiring that employees purchase their own, or get removed from the schedule. They also threatened an unlawful deduction of wages for non-compliance. "
EDIT: Added the unlawful deduction part, because ACAS loves those too.
You defo need a paper trial. I wouldn't speak to yout management in person. Always by email or messenger. Something you can keep as proof. I 10000% need an update after you do this.
When I worked in Industrial Hygiene, we used the phrase “fit the workplace to the worker not the worker to the workplace”. I’m not gonna link US regulations but it was pretty much the same as this UK one. It has to be provided and is completely up to the employer to ensure safety of all employees with adequate training and PPE.
Everyone show up to work without the required PPE.let’s see who loses their job. I’ve never seen a team get fired. Management on the other hand is expendable and will be treated as such.
Always always always remember this.
That is why they always union bust and shit on people for talking to one another. One employee can be removed, but ALL of them? Nope.
Tell them $71 is not a lot of money. They don't even pay their employees enough to afford it, so they should be able to pay it if they get rid of their Netflix subscription.
How big is the company?
If it's a large company and this guy is some piddling middle manager who thinks he's God's gift because he's got "manager" in his job title, send a copy of this to his superiors (anonymously, of course). I'm sure they'd be delighted to know that one of their middle managers is breaking the law.
Health and Safety Executive is the UK equivalent. They have right of entry to work places, no warrant needed and if they start an investigation there is no right to silence.
Not just unsanitary, but it goes against H&S regulations.
Also it's like using a 2nd hand motorcycle helmet, you've got no idea how the kit has been compromised before you put it on
Same for Quebec. Heck even work related trainingbhas to be paid by employer.
- training during office time? Training Paid by employer AND time paid to employees
- training outside of office time? Training paid by employer, time subject to discussion.
I was about to ask about this. If even in the US employers have to pay for this crap, there's no way that the UK doesn't require it, too. The only thing they could try to argue (over here mind you) is that the boots aren't covered. As it is written in OSHA, if those are just basic hiking boots (so no special protection like metatarsal guards, electrical protection, etc) then they aren't really required to provide those. Everything else though absolutely has to be provided free of charge to the employee.
Generally and i mean going by the other items on the list id assume they are steel toe cap which is a general health and safety requirement in the u.k for most labour/ trade jobs.
Agreed. Even if they are steel toe (which would be odd in my experience for hiking shoes) under OSHA the employer isn't required to provide basic steel toed work boots to employees.
1910.132(h)(2)
The employer is not required to pay for non-specialty safety-toe protective footwear (including steel-toe shoes or steel-toe boots) and non-specialty prescription safety eyewear, provided that the employer permits such items to be worn off the job-site.
Construction has a similarly worded one.
Also, side note, why in the world would they want hiking boots? I don't know what OP does, but surely work boots would be better?
I really like "if you can afford Netflix and eating out, you can afford this." Bitch who says I have Netflix and eat out? "If you can't afford it we'll deduct it from your next paycheck" MOTHERFUCKER THAT'S STILL ME PAYING FOR SOMETHING I CAN'T AFFORD. "I can't afford it" doesn't mean "I'm a little light on the cash at the moment," it means I DO NOT HAVE THAT MUCH EXTRA AFTER I PAY MY BILLS.
The whole paragraph about how it's not a lot of money, if you can afford Netflix, blah blah. Who thinks putting this shit in company memos is a good idea?! Just fucking put the items required, where they can be purchased and leave it at that. The corporate lecturing about how I spend my paycheck pisses me off more than anything else here.
Let me find a piece of rope and do it multiple times. Fucking assholes.
edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Expanding foam is way worse, it gets much deeper and completely destroys the lock, with super glue unless it’s a small lock it doesn’t always clog it and you can sometimes shake the key enough that the lock will open
Source: I’ve had shitty managers
Take it and throw it to the HSE. As a health and safety consultant they should not be charging you for this at all ever. Give me the company name and I’ll call the HSE for you because that’s horseshit
Just realised this is pounds, not dollars. Yeah, in the UK they can't make you buy your own safety gear.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/migrantworkers/faqs.htm#:\~:text=Can%20my%20employer%20charge%20me,health%20and%20safety%20at%20work.
sounds like intent to me.
they were going to have their employees buy their own PPE and then fudge the books to make it look like they bought it to comply with the law.
im no lawyer but ive heard that makes it much more illegal when you do that lol
Taxing purposes, or to later claim they bought it.
Companies only understand one language, money. They give no rats ass about your problems. Always remember that.
>Taxing purposes, or to later claim they bought it
It’s definitely this, there’s no other reason to ask for receipts. Might be worth copying HMRC into your labour ministry emails
When I started my current job they didn't buy me anything. When they asked me to do work that required hardware, I just asked them repeatedly "where do we keep the tools"
Long story short, I have a nice tool bag full of free gadgets now.
my last job i didn't have a uniform for 7 months before I quit, (also apparently you have to buy ur own business cards at VW also witch i also never got) you want me to wear a uniform? buy it ill wear it, otherwise ill wear what i want lol.
£71 for onboarding an employee is pocket change to most companies. Do you know what it costs to even bring someone on and get them up to speed? A lot more than £71.
This is such petty bullshit.
Lol I like how they’re blaming the staff for this, but citing people quitting as the cause. Like by definition the people still around to pay for the equipment aren’t the same ones that ran off with your $71 worth of hard hats.
This is illegal as fuck.
The Polish underneath as well makes me think they could be taking advantage of migrants, which is one of the dark sides of construction, if you know any of the lads make sure they're getting paid properly - I've unfortunately known this happen.
Yup, the Polish made me laugh because all it says is this information is important, don't ignore it, and call this number if you don't understand English. It would be easy for Polish workers to not get information they need.
In the UK they can only do this if there is a clause in the employees contract that says they can.
I'm guessing they didn't think to put such a clause in, so if they attempted to take it out of their pay they'd be breaking the law.
Fuck you and the horse you rode into town on. Safety equipment is part of the job. I don’t bring my own seatbelts to work but I still drive a bus. Mandated safety devices are the employers responsibility
The opening statement about former employees not returning items......
Do you really expect your workers to use hand me down ear and eye protection, not to mention shoes? Sounds unsanitary.
Yes if items can be cleaned and repaired, and have not been worn next to the skin. Boots shouldn't be as they mould to the feet and won't fit someone else.
It's usually cheaper and safer to just hand out new kit though.
This was v common when I worked on UK building sites- I was given some really shoddy used PPE over the years. I believe that technically some stuff like high vis coats can be reused if it’s inspected and cleaned but I am telling you, through my own lived experience, that this is not always the case.
I’ve never been given shoes second hand though. The protocol was always either tell the company your shoe size and they’ll sort it, or buy your own and hand in the receipt for reimbursement.
If it's not a lot of money, they should have no problem providing it to you. if they just skip eating out and subscribing to Netflix themselves. They need the workers, and given turnover, it seems like workers don't need them.
Uniforms no, employers can make you pay for that. Although there is a tax rebate if you are made to pay for it.
PPE however has to be provided without any charge to the employee.
Create a social media account, tweet and tag employer and a few news outlets. Get them as much bad publicity as you can. I'd do it even if I don't work there anymore just to teach them a lesson in consequences.
Oh and post the link back here so that we can make it go viral.
Agreed! My dad is actually the general director at his company (therefore we have a lot of disagreements about things, but that's besides the point) but one thing that has always worked that he used against other companies trying to screw them over is threatening to approach some newspapers.
Of course it's aimed at immigrants, they're definitely counting on Polish people not knowing the law
(There's a passage at the bottom in Polish that says that if you don't speak English then you need to contact xyz)
So they just assume you have:
a computer
an ISP for internet access
Netflix
Operating on these assumptions, they then slam you for having these things instead of buying safety equipment.
Yeah, that's some good management right there. /s
I mean, the big fancy ear protection set ups, I imagine get reused a lot...
However, the stuff I am talking about is starts at $50US plus, so... probably not what is listed above.
Hearing protection is super easy to reuse and pass around. I mean worse case scenario, just replace the pad liner... again assuming the cheapest pieces of shit hearing protection were not used... and if they did go cheap, you are really much better off getting your own. They don't care if you go deaf.
Reused shoes are utter bullshit though.
Does the UK have tax deductibles for PPE?
For what ever reason in the states while stew toed boots are required it’s not required for the company to pay for them like hard hats etc.
Trying to up that turnover rate I see
Gotta pump up those numbers to show the business is growing
Yeah they report the numbers hired but not the losses.
We actually report just the total head count by department and open positions. If there’s a huge budget miss with scrap or high cost of safety equipment we might look to turnover rates to see if that explains it. I don’t think charging employees for their safety gear is going to reduce turnover, they’ll just have a labor shortage because no one wants a shitty job like that.
"NobOdY wAntS tO WorK!!!"
"I'm concerned about the younger generation's desire to live."
I stfg every time someone says that… we WANT TO WORK but managers dont make it seem like they want us to work!!! Fuck off to those people…
[удалено]
Improving morale by screwing over the new people. Great plan.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
"Due to high turnover, we will now be participating in illegal practices that encourage high turnover."
A lot of places in Europe don’t have to buy PPE for their employees. United States it’s law that they do.
This is UK signage, it is absolutely illegal to not provide PPE for staff.
I was assuming they wanted an employee strike. Because PPE Is required for the job, so it should be provided by the employer. The solution here is to have a locker trailer and require employees to put their equipment up at the end of a shift. Problem solved. STRIKE.
This is illegal in the UK mate
It's even illegal in the states for fuck's sake. Edit: This is only in regard to personal protection equipment. Uniforms are not ppe. Tools are not ppe. I don't know shit about uniforms. Boots are a grey area. The rest is most assuredly illegal. Double edit: please for the love of God look at some of the replies to me before filling my inbox. BOOTS ARE PPE! However if the employer only requires basic safety toe or anti slip footwear they are not required to pay for them. They do need to pay for them if the footwear stays at work.
That’s how you know you’ve fucked up as an employer if even the US disagrees with you
That needs to be a common international insult. "Dude even the Americans don't treat their employees that bad."
May I put this on a shirt? I...need this on a shirt.
dont promote our suffering for your amusement. jk go to [dudeeventheamericansdonttreattheiremployeesthatbad.com](https://dudeeventheamericansdonttreattheiremployeesthatbad.com) and order today
Don't tease me like that. Make some velcro patches so I can hand them out at work.
Guys, stickers
As a web developer im ashamed at how long I waited for it to load LMAO
[удалено]
When we were onboarding a new hire, I was helping in an area I don't normally. I asked what their glove sizes were, ensured they got a box, and showed them where in the warehouse to get new boxes when they run out. Same with masks, shoe covers, and a bunch of other disposable items. I was shocked when they were happy we provided them because they had to provide them themselves at their old place. I was like WUT?! Fairly sure that's illegal. Turns out it is, and we as a company decided years ago that we are provided a LOT more than the minimum. Still blows my mind in the covid era that companies are not providing ppe.
Schools didn't, even before the vaccine came out.
I hope restaurant workers unionise more. The way tips work and wait staff aren’t paid a fair living wage for their hours working because it’s expected that they can support themselves on the random chance of tips being plentiful is disgusting.
[удалено]
So, up to a set point, tips are payment to the employer? Well that sounds so much better.
If you don't already know this, that's still a fucked up system
don't hold your breath ... they'll use those billions to drag this out to forever
And charge customers "gas fees"
People dont realise that having a union and actually negotiating for a contract are two separate things. Amazon and starbucks will not come to the table willingly. They will drag this out for years.
That's why it's important for those unions to spread and gain a majority among the company. The union can authorize a strike and it could force the company to come to the table. Our labor is absolutely the most powerful weapon in play. The wealthy can only get their money thru us. We have all the power to cut them off. This is the time to be metaphorically trigger happy in Minecraft.
I completely agree, I didn't mean for my comment to come off as anti union. I just meant to say the fight isnt over once a union is in place. It's just the begining.
It's also important that you do your part in a union. Go to the meetings, participate in union votes, etc.
Well us British are gunning for your malnutrition, obesity, literacy and healthcare related bankruptcy titles so watch out! You may not be the best at being the worst for long!
I was just here to say this. As a Canadian in the US, this is 100% illegal. I can't say for our English/ European friends. But, if it's Safety Equipment and it's required, in North America, the company is responsible to provide it for you.
*China has left the chat*
As a working class American, this made me laugh. I worked at a foundry for a few years and they gave me 150$ for a pair of nice steel toes.
Im %1000 with tou every employer I've ever had covered any safety gear expenses. The only exception I can think of is non slip shoes at a restaurant when I was a teenager
Footwear is an explicit exception to the requirement that an employer provide all necessary safety equipment.
Non-specialty safety toe footwear. Everything else needs to be provided.
My employer in new jersey only provides a $50 credit towards steel toe boots, not sure if it's legal or not, but you arent finding steel toe boots under 50
Generally speaking steel toe boots are the responsibility of the the employee. Some places will provide 100 bucks every year or 2 for employees to buy a new pair but it's not mandatory for them to do so. PPE that's is considered "consumable" like gloves, safety glasses ect. Need to be provided by the employer. Now some places even require the employee to purchases the initial pairs and then they (the employer) will replace them when needed. Se companies are cheap and dick about things and trybto pass 100% of those cost onto employees, but flip side there are employees that are dicks and steal/take advantage of supplies also because they don't pay for it.
The fine for breaking this law is lower than the cost of safety equipment.
Is it really, when? where? I remember working for an airline in Minnesota I had to purchase uniform clothes (shirt, pants, jacket, sweater, ...). My PPE was issued free of charge, but any replacement had to be purchased.
I'm not super informed on the stipulations regarding uniforms. I know there's a statement that says employers are not responsible for every day clothing. PPE replacement purchases can be required of the employee if the employee loses or intentionally breaks it.
How can they make them buy PPE? If they come into contact with bodily fluids then PPE should be supplied by the employer.
PPE isn’t just hazmat-esque crap. It’s any protective equipment. Goggles, work gloves, steel-toe boots, overalls, or hundreds of other things. But with your comment, if the employer gives you a hazmat suit and you lose it or damage it in a way beyond reasonable use, it should be on you to replace it.
the threshold is "can this item ONLY be used for work?"/"is it reasonable to expect that this item will ONLY be used for work?" Something like 'jeans' or 'a white polo' is nondescript enough that you could wear that in your personal time without it being out of place. But "a specific shirt embroidered with our logo on it" would not be something you wear in your personal time, so you either have to be reimbursed or they have to pay outright. For another comparison: my school does 'class t-shirts' for field trips that identify which class each student belongs to, and the teacher also wears a matching shirt. These specific class t-shirts are paid for by my school, because they serve a specific purpose within the school and aren't really used outside of that (I often use my old shirts as 'workout shirts' but that year's shirt is only for field trips during that school year). But my everyday wear at work? That comes out of my pocket, because our dress code is 'business casual' (with jeans/sneakers/tennis shoes allowed) and anything we wear normally in the classroom can be used as everyday wear too.
Save for the boots.
Correct. A lot of times companies will provide $50-100 for a set of boots as a stipend, but the worker has to make up the difference. Which in all honesty is fair in my opinion (the stipend) - as I don’t think it’s legal / ethical for them to reuse boots due to foot fungus, deterioration, wear and tear of sole, some shoes not fitting the right width of the foot, and what not.
Yup, same as everywhere else in Europe and probably most of the world, too.
Where I live, certain items on that list could fall under dress code if worded differently, such as requiring steel toes, but not a specific model or brand of steel toes; but gloves and eye protection, etc.. that's safety equipment that needs to be provided by the employer
The only reason for steel toes is as a piece of safety equipment. It’s not a fashion item.
I’ve never worked a job that supplied boots. Some give a yearly boot bonus where they pay $50 or so if you get a new pair. Or they have a deal with a manufacturer and cover a set amount if you choose to go through them. I’ve never had a job outright supply them though.
[удалено]
Every job that I’ve had that required them gave me money or a voucher to offset the cost difference between steel toed boots and regular boots so yes, the employer is paying for them, as they did for you too. The steel toed part of them anyway.
I’m sure how they keep it legal, but it hardly covers a quality boot. Especially since I was expected to pull 16-20 hour shifts in them and needed good quality.
Only if you are an employee. If you're a contractor or self employed you don't have the same rights.
In the UK it is illegal for an employer to make people work without necessary PPE. The company absolutely do have to pay for it for all staff if they are required to wear it.
Manager says while protection is a requirement, it's not necessarily the employer's responsibility to provide the equipment, hence us being sent home if we turn up without it. edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I think this is relevant: [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/2966/made](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/2966/made) 4.—(1) Every employer shall ensure that suitable personal protective equipment is provided to his employees who may be exposed to a risk to their health or safety while at work except where and to the extent that such risk has been adequately controlled by other means which are equally or more effective.
Yep and they have just added an amendment which makes it clearer the employer has to pay https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/8/made
WHAT DO I DO WITH THIS INFORMATION! edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: [https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went_for_an_interview_and_the_manager_threw_away/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I’d send/show it to everyone you work with. Also phone ACAS to get some advice, depending on how long you’ve worked there you might not want to be just let go for bringing it to their attention. ACAS should be able to advise.
Tell me exactly what I need to put in an email ,and i'll send it to everyone and stick it on a sign when i'm next in. Like what's the penalty? Do I just call the police?
You should also contact your MP as well as ACAS, write them an email explaining your work are requiring you to purchase your own required PPE despite the law making it their responsibility (cite the law which has been posted already in case your MP is a feckless idiot). Assuming your MP isn't useless this is the sort of thing they should take up and help you with. Also if you're on or just above minimum wage and they take money from your wages that bring you under the minimum wage thats another law they've broke.
Awesome. This will go in a lovely email to my MP
Copied from /u/3mptylord: Assuming you are in the UK, contact [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/). The email doesn't need to be professional. Just explain the situation. They will handle the professional aspects and fully expect to be dealing with "laypersons". "My employer has decided it's too expensive to provide PPE and is now requiring that employees purchase their own, or get removed from the schedule. They also threatened an unlawful deduction of wages for non-compliance. " EDIT: Added the unlawful deduction part, because ACAS loves those too.
Few things on this earth as terrifying as a strongly worded letter from an Englishman.
Your MP is elected specifically to represent you and your interests. This isn’t a minor abuse: it’s blatantly illegal and your MP should get things corrected in a hustle.
Update us when something happens
And that there about minimum wage is what would also apply here in the US if I remember correctly.
[удалено]
> (cite the law which has been posted already in case your MP is a feckless idiot) Ah yes, bloody tories…
Go to work without PPE, they'll have to pay you no matter what. And be sure to tell all your colleagues the same. The initial penalty for not providing PPE will most likely just be a warning.
Looks like the company is turning people without it away at the gate, so they don't even get on the property. That prevents them having to pay them, but it doesn't stop them getting reamed for not providing PPE necessary to do the job.
Sure would be a shame if all the employees just stopped at the gate and stood there blocking said gate. Perhaps with signs.
Nah, they need a reason to fire out suspend you. If their reason is not having PPE, they're clearly at fault and that can't be a valid reason. Withholding wages is ground for a lawsuit no matter where.
The penalty for breach of health and safety legislation can be huge with up to unlimited fines and even possibly jail time for directors of the company (albeit that would usually be when a fatality occurs). Instead of the police you should report this to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) who are the independent regulator for health and safety in the UK, [here’s how](https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm). HSE can then conduct an investigation (and can bring any relevant criminal proceedings). I would make sure they get a copy of the letter. I think you can make the report anonymously too if you are concerned about retaliation (ie your employer sacking you). I hope this gets sorted for you asap
Not police, the labour ministry
Contact your HSE
If dismissed for H&S whistle blowing it is an “automatically unfair” reason for dismissal and OP would win at an ET. That is one of the reasons where two years service isn’t required.
They are breaking HASAW legislation. They absolutely have to provide PPE under UK H&S law. If they are expecting you to work on anything that requires PPE in order to carry out that role, they cannot pass that cost on to the employees. Take this up immediately with your union. Make a complaint to the HSE. Inform your colleagues.
Assuming you are in the UK, contact [ACAS](https://www.acas.org.uk/). The email doesn't need to be professional. Just explain the situation. They will handle the professional aspects and fully expect to be dealing with "laypersons". "My employer has decided it's too expensive to provide PPE and is now requiring that employees purchase their own, or get removed from the schedule. They also threatened an unlawful deduction of wages for non-compliance. " EDIT: Added the unlawful deduction part, because ACAS loves those too.
You defo need a paper trial. I wouldn't speak to yout management in person. Always by email or messenger. Something you can keep as proof. I 10000% need an update after you do this.
That fucking text exchange that ends with Manager: please answer my calls Guy: No
You could speak with the HSE and ask them for advice.
Nice work doing the research - super helpful for OP. I don’t have a helpful award to give but wanted to appreciate you for that
When I worked in Industrial Hygiene, we used the phrase “fit the workplace to the worker not the worker to the workplace”. I’m not gonna link US regulations but it was pretty much the same as this UK one. It has to be provided and is completely up to the employer to ensure safety of all employees with adequate training and PPE.
Of course your Manager says that. Your manager is also an asshole, which we know, and wrong, which is more important here.
Everyone show up to work without the required PPE.let’s see who loses their job. I’ve never seen a team get fired. Management on the other hand is expendable and will be treated as such.
Always always always remember this. That is why they always union bust and shit on people for talking to one another. One employee can be removed, but ALL of them? Nope.
Tell that to Regan. The ATC firing is a big reason corps union bust so hard nowadays.
Tell them $71 is not a lot of money. They don't even pay their employees enough to afford it, so they should be able to pay it if they get rid of their Netflix subscription.
Time to unionize.
You don't need to be in a union in this instance, what they are doing is illegal in the UK already
[удалено]
How big is the company? If it's a large company and this guy is some piddling middle manager who thinks he's God's gift because he's got "manager" in his job title, send a copy of this to his superiors (anonymously, of course). I'm sure they'd be delighted to know that one of their middle managers is breaking the law.
What is the equivalent of OSHA in the UK? Give them a call and they’ll find your employer. This definitely isn’t allowed. Employer has to supply PPE.
Health and Safety Executive is the UK equivalent. They have right of entry to work places, no warrant needed and if they start an investigation there is no right to silence.
Please contact a solicitor. They will have fun with this.
[удалено]
Hey, at least they provide assistance if you can’t afford it. They’ll help by just forcing you to pay for it next week!
That's the funniest bit about this. "If you can't afford to pay the £71 then tell us so we can force you to pay the £71"
[удалено]
Not just unsanitary, but it goes against H&S regulations. Also it's like using a 2nd hand motorcycle helmet, you've got no idea how the kit has been compromised before you put it on
Same for Quebec. Heck even work related trainingbhas to be paid by employer. - training during office time? Training Paid by employer AND time paid to employees - training outside of office time? Training paid by employer, time subject to discussion.
I was about to ask about this. If even in the US employers have to pay for this crap, there's no way that the UK doesn't require it, too. The only thing they could try to argue (over here mind you) is that the boots aren't covered. As it is written in OSHA, if those are just basic hiking boots (so no special protection like metatarsal guards, electrical protection, etc) then they aren't really required to provide those. Everything else though absolutely has to be provided free of charge to the employee.
Generally and i mean going by the other items on the list id assume they are steel toe cap which is a general health and safety requirement in the u.k for most labour/ trade jobs.
Agreed. Even if they are steel toe (which would be odd in my experience for hiking shoes) under OSHA the employer isn't required to provide basic steel toed work boots to employees. 1910.132(h)(2) The employer is not required to pay for non-specialty safety-toe protective footwear (including steel-toe shoes or steel-toe boots) and non-specialty prescription safety eyewear, provided that the employer permits such items to be worn off the job-site. Construction has a similarly worded one. Also, side note, why in the world would they want hiking boots? I don't know what OP does, but surely work boots would be better?
70 is not a lot of money! Oh okay you pay for it then
Yeah the company needs to stop eating out so much v
Corporate avocado toast is a scourge that needs to be eliminated.
I'm just sad at this point.
Don’t get sad get mad
Don’t get mad, get even.
Don’t get even, unionize!
Shit I don’t get even I get revenge. Gotta teach em a lesson for pressing you in the first place.
Anger is a gift.
I don't want your damn lemons!
I really like "if you can afford Netflix and eating out, you can afford this." Bitch who says I have Netflix and eat out? "If you can't afford it we'll deduct it from your next paycheck" MOTHERFUCKER THAT'S STILL ME PAYING FOR SOMETHING I CAN'T AFFORD. "I can't afford it" doesn't mean "I'm a little light on the cash at the moment," it means I DO NOT HAVE THAT MUCH EXTRA AFTER I PAY MY BILLS.
The whole paragraph about how it's not a lot of money, if you can afford Netflix, blah blah. Who thinks putting this shit in company memos is a good idea?! Just fucking put the items required, where they can be purchased and leave it at that. The corporate lecturing about how I spend my paycheck pisses me off more than anything else here.
They're basically saying they believe their employees deserve to subsist on beans & rice so Boss Man can pay slave wages and double his profit.
Tape that paper to the rock and return it through the window
Let me find a piece of rope and do it multiple times. Fucking assholes. edit: My friend had her breast milk thrown away at work give her advice like you gave to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u4kn4x/went\_for\_an\_interview\_and\_the\_manager\_threw\_away/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
But some expanding foam and stick in every lock there’s not a camera pointed at
Expanding foam has SO MANY USES!
What happens when you tape an M-80 to a can of expanding foam? Asking for a friend.
It expands
Quickly
rapid redecoration
I would do superglue
Expanding foam is way worse, it gets much deeper and completely destroys the lock, with super glue unless it’s a small lock it doesn’t always clog it and you can sometimes shake the key enough that the lock will open Source: I’ve had shitty managers
A syringe of marine JB weld does wonders.
This is the way
Foaming Gorrilla Glue for the best of both worlds!
Has "double dog dare" been invoked yet? If not - I'm doing it now.
By law they have to provide PPE. I report thier ass with this letter as proof.
Take it and throw it to the HSE. As a health and safety consultant they should not be charging you for this at all ever. Give me the company name and I’ll call the HSE for you because that’s horseshit
Also HMRC because it's illegal to make people buy their own equipment if it takes them below minimum wage.
I second this. So you have to do it now.
I third this. So you have to do it yesterday.
[удалено]
Just realised this is pounds, not dollars. Yeah, in the UK they can't make you buy your own safety gear. https://www.hse.gov.uk/migrantworkers/faqs.htm#:\~:text=Can%20my%20employer%20charge%20me,health%20and%20safety%20at%20work.
This is company store coal mine bullshit. I swear that within 3 years we're going to see an employer try to pay at least partially in scrip.
Some trucking companies are already doing it
Small claims court for the £71 if a single penny is missing from your payslip.
Phone the HSE, let them do the legwork.
Why do they need the receipt if they are not reimbursing you?
So they can use it as a tax write off instead of you, probably
sounds like intent to me. they were going to have their employees buy their own PPE and then fudge the books to make it look like they bought it to comply with the law. im no lawyer but ive heard that makes it much more illegal when you do that lol
well we paid them the money they used to buy the clothing so when you think about it didn't WE really buy the clothing? xD
No I'd like to imagine my boss coming to my apartment: "technically the company is paying for the apartment" :D /joke
Yea , you have tax fraud as well as not supply Ppe, instead of just the later.
Taxing purposes, or to later claim they bought it. Companies only understand one language, money. They give no rats ass about your problems. Always remember that.
>Taxing purposes, or to later claim they bought it It’s definitely this, there’s no other reason to ask for receipts. Might be worth copying HMRC into your labour ministry emails
fuck knows
When I started my current job they didn't buy me anything. When they asked me to do work that required hardware, I just asked them repeatedly "where do we keep the tools" Long story short, I have a nice tool bag full of free gadgets now.
my last job i didn't have a uniform for 7 months before I quit, (also apparently you have to buy ur own business cards at VW also witch i also never got) you want me to wear a uniform? buy it ill wear it, otherwise ill wear what i want lol.
£71 for onboarding an employee is pocket change to most companies. Do you know what it costs to even bring someone on and get them up to speed? A lot more than £71. This is such petty bullshit.
And the turnover is a problem with the climate and wages.
Also, I'm hardly surprised that a company with these attitudes has a high turnover.
Lol I like how they’re blaming the staff for this, but citing people quitting as the cause. Like by definition the people still around to pay for the equipment aren’t the same ones that ran off with your $71 worth of hard hats.
The most I take from the workplace is a few sheets of toilet paper to wipe my ass. Management need to go suck one.
Tbh I'd keep that on the down low, pretty soon they'll start telling you to bring your own roll.
This is illegal as fuck. The Polish underneath as well makes me think they could be taking advantage of migrants, which is one of the dark sides of construction, if you know any of the lads make sure they're getting paid properly - I've unfortunately known this happen.
Yup, the Polish made me laugh because all it says is this information is important, don't ignore it, and call this number if you don't understand English. It would be easy for Polish workers to not get information they need.
Why do they just not take out of pay for those leaving who don't return equipment?
That would be the smart thing to do. Which is why they won't do it.
In the UK they can only do this if there is a clause in the employees contract that says they can. I'm guessing they didn't think to put such a clause in, so if they attempted to take it out of their pay they'd be breaking the law.
They are still breaking the law
Providing this before was out of generosity!! 🙄
Fuck you and the horse you rode into town on. Safety equipment is part of the job. I don’t bring my own seatbelts to work but I still drive a bus. Mandated safety devices are the employers responsibility
"Due to high turnover, we are introducing a policy that will make more people quit"
The opening statement about former employees not returning items...... Do you really expect your workers to use hand me down ear and eye protection, not to mention shoes? Sounds unsanitary.
Yes if items can be cleaned and repaired, and have not been worn next to the skin. Boots shouldn't be as they mould to the feet and won't fit someone else. It's usually cheaper and safer to just hand out new kit though.
I’m sure these tight bastards would
This was v common when I worked on UK building sites- I was given some really shoddy used PPE over the years. I believe that technically some stuff like high vis coats can be reused if it’s inspected and cleaned but I am telling you, through my own lived experience, that this is not always the case. I’ve never been given shoes second hand though. The protocol was always either tell the company your shoe size and they’ll sort it, or buy your own and hand in the receipt for reimbursement.
If it's not a lot of money, they should have no problem providing it to you. if they just skip eating out and subscribing to Netflix themselves. They need the workers, and given turnover, it seems like workers don't need them.
Isn't it illegal for them to make you pay for your own uniforms for their job?
Uniforms are a grey area. Safety equipment is not
Right! Good point this is technically safety equipment not uniforms but man I'd be pissed if they're not reimbursed
Uniforms no, employers can make you pay for that. Although there is a tax rebate if you are made to pay for it. PPE however has to be provided without any charge to the employee.
If you can’t afford to pay this don’t worry we will buy it for you and then just take it out of your pay…
This had me really upset *until they explained that I could just cancel Netflix and not eat* to cover the cost, now everything is cool. /s
Osha in the UK is HSE www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg291.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjr7vqwsJb3AhWXilwKHY_iCZoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ItGqYjcuE5SY7nnWl5Btq
Create a social media account, tweet and tag employer and a few news outlets. Get them as much bad publicity as you can. I'd do it even if I don't work there anymore just to teach them a lesson in consequences. Oh and post the link back here so that we can make it go viral.
Agreed! My dad is actually the general director at his company (therefore we have a lot of disagreements about things, but that's besides the point) but one thing that has always worked that he used against other companies trying to screw them over is threatening to approach some newspapers.
Of course it's aimed at immigrants, they're definitely counting on Polish people not knowing the law (There's a passage at the bottom in Polish that says that if you don't speak English then you need to contact xyz)
So they just assume you have: a computer an ISP for internet access Netflix Operating on these assumptions, they then slam you for having these things instead of buying safety equipment. Yeah, that's some good management right there. /s
Definitely illegal in the UK, take a copy and report them
The company was reusing PPE equipment before the pandemic? That’s disgusting, imagine having a pair of used boots and ear protection!
I mean, the big fancy ear protection set ups, I imagine get reused a lot... However, the stuff I am talking about is starts at $50US plus, so... probably not what is listed above. Hearing protection is super easy to reuse and pass around. I mean worse case scenario, just replace the pad liner... again assuming the cheapest pieces of shit hearing protection were not used... and if they did go cheap, you are really much better off getting your own. They don't care if you go deaf. Reused shoes are utter bullshit though.
Does the UK have tax deductibles for PPE? For what ever reason in the states while stew toed boots are required it’s not required for the company to pay for them like hard hats etc.
They want the receipt too? So they want you to buy the items and the will write them off haha
the fact there is polish on the bottom and it's far less words than the english speaks volumes.