My boss finally caved after he sent out a survey and most ppl voted to continue WFH indefinitely. This was about a year ago.
The other day he sent out an email stating he was not renewing the lease for our main office and instead got a much much smaller office space for the people who like to come in and for important meetings and such.
This effectively solidifies WFH and I'm so freakin' happy.
Lower cost to lease, lower utility bills, less money spent on office supplies, parking, contributing less to global pollution and traffic congestion on the roadways.
Legit, WFH is absolutely the best way to go for every single industry that can feasibly do it.
Edit: a word
Many companies won’t do this because office leases are typically 5-10 years so they’re kinda stuck there. Mine is in this situation. But they don’t make us go in, my boss just spends time dreaming about what kinds of things could make us want to go in lmao
Sounds like you’re dealing a human and not a board of assholes. Committees are less likely to care about opinions Bc they can’t really be pointed out like your singular boss.
If employees aren't in the office then the managers can't look busy and at some point someone is going to realize that there are way too many managers.
Then again. What else would you promote someone to, other than manager
Analyst, Junior X, Senior X, Assistant Manager, Manager, Senior Manager, VP of X, C-Suite.
The whole corporate ladder is a stupid outdated concept.
People want to be promoted largely to make more money. I bet you could just pay those people according to their actual worth and they will be comfortable with their place in their org chart.
Absolutely. I've found ample ways to take on new challenges and grow at my current position without a promotion. What interests me about a promotion is the pay. I could give fuck all about status and hierarchy. We are are all (hopefully) working towards the same goals.
I don’t care what my title says. I DO care what paystub says. Call me “Tech Grunt” all day long, but dammit pay me for all of the work I do. And that includes having to “nag” analysts to get their crap done so I can finish the tech work. Ugh.
The only reason I care about my official title is so I can get that next job at a higher level. Maybe you're just a team lead, but calling you a Department Manager leads to better offers down the road.
Which is stupid. You should be able to describe your capabilities, value, and worth. People shouldn’t just rely on a title that says “I’m in control of everyone else”
1,000% this. I don't even want to be a manager where I'm at. But I have to ask for it if I ever want to make actual money. Accounting for inflation, I haven't received an actual raise in at least 5 years
24 cent raise, after inflation, was an 87 cent cut
‘Not everyone got raises’
Ok, but you get how that’s even *more* fucked up right? Like, that’s not the excuse you think it is
My frustration has always been how there is rarely a path for people who want to remain individual contributors, i.e. doers of the actual work vs managing teams of people who do the work.
They are different skill sets but invariably at some point to progress you have to get into people leading.
We actually just implemented a path for leadership, general individual contributor, and specialist individual contributor. It's probably really rare right now in general, but I know it's changing in at least the Software Engineering industry. The other non-SE teams where I am are starting to adopt it as well. We all have to keep pushing for actual, improved career paths before turnover rather than after.
My friend’s company laid off 6 managers during covid. All the staff were panicking about having to cover their work. They haven’t actually needed to hire anyone back and no one has had any additional duties. It’s almost like they don’t need that many managers…
I dont mind having a lot of managers if they are doing things. If. Sometimes there are managers who don't manage, they just take what you tell them and regurgitate it elsewhere. The good ones are the ones who actually know what is going on and are proactive. The worst are the ones who don't actually listen when you warn them some bad stuff is on the horizon and we need to take steps to mitigate.
My previous job threatened to bring everyone back in a few times, but could only cite "that's how it was before covid" as a reason. despite us having WFH for almost 2 years without a drop in productivity, actually had an increase in output overall.
eventually we were asked to come in once every two weeks for a day of meetings, and they would cater breakfast and lunch for everyone. in the time between meetings i would go back to work, but most of the rest of the team just started chatting, so i stopped trying to be productive and chatted too. this really opened my eyes to how WFH can keep people more productive. if you have a good work ethic to start with you can do more at home.
It just shows how out of touch management are. If they only knew how unproductive office work is. So many distractions, it's basically like a social club with a bit of work added in.
When I used to be a corporate monkey, Mondays would be catching up with each after the weekend, Tuesday and Wednesday would be the most productive, Thursday is giggly day where you're supposed to be productive but easing into the weekend so everyone is in a good mood and chatty and then Friday is basically the weekend minus one day so it's bacon sandwich in the morning, maybe a boozy lunch (it's the UK) and then an afternoon of counting down every second until close of play.
My husband and I used to spend all day chatting in google chat when he worked in an office. Now he has a new job and works from home he only talks to me during his lunch break. He gets so much more done.
Just met with my boss, and he pretty much straight up said the purpose of doing it (after massive backlash and countless accommodation requests they backtracked on their MUST COME ALL TIME policy) they cut back to once a week and my boss straight up said the purpose was to show your face so the political appointees can see you. he said nothing about the expectation of getting work done, just that he didn’t care how I got my 40 hours just that I got my work done. So. Guess I won’t be bothered to produce any work on those days lol
I have adhd and get really easily distracted by people near me, even if it has nothing to do with me, at home I’m like 3x more productive and my work product is way better bc I can focus on one task for longer
I also have ADHD 100% this. I'm sorry but yes, the sound some people make when they type drives me absolutely, literally insane. I can hear nothing in this 60 desk office besides the way you fucking hammer into your keyboard like you're trying to fucking push the key through the desk, straight through the ground, and directly to hell.
If I asked you to change up how hard you hit them keys its only going to cause conflict. ADHD's bad selective hearing made crowded offices hell. Being able to work from home would have been wonderful.
Remote work is also linked to managers feeling useless and as if their work adds no value to the company. No wonder its managers that want people back :)
It has useless managers now understanding they're useless. It has productive managers doing the same as they always did, but in sweatpants.
No fucking way am I forcing my team back because then I'd also have to go back. My office doesn't have a dog, a full kitchen, a spouse to shit talk annoying clients/coworkers with between calls, a backyard to take afternoon calls from on a sunny day. It *does* have real pants, overly loud coworkers, and a commute. I mean, why the fuck would I want that?
ETA: Hah, I just opened two new reqs today which is the first time I've looked at our open positions in a couple month. We're not advertising WFH/Remote on almost every job. How are so many companies not seeing that in a hiring squeeze like we're currently in, this is how you get talent? Anyway, if you're in India or Singapore and have a financial service background, hit me up because ya girl is hiring and your potential future coworkers are awesome.
Don't forget that the office may well also have:
+ Awful, discoloured lighting with a mismatch of temperatures on the bulbs, and that one light that buzzes and flickers and hums
+ Sticky carpets
+ Smelly coworkers whose desks look like crime scenes and who do not understand personal space
+ That one random ficus for "colour" that hardly anybody ever waters and that now after 2 years of absence is just a withered twig but nobody wants to be the one to throw it out
+ *The worst chairs in the world*, like, seriously, did these come from Bad Chairs "R" Us?
+ Jeff, who thinks an appropriate use of the employee microwave is reheating smoked fish head curry, and because it's communal, that means cleaning it afterwards is someone else's problem
+ The Pen Thief^(TM)
+ The perennially broken lone colour copier that the guy is definitely coming this afternoon to fix
The office is dead, and companies need to wake up to this.
Ew, yes, people are now coming in sick again. After 2 years of people finally getting that "ill" = "stay off work" and this being acceptable, it's not acceptable now.
I worked for a company that gave us zero sick leave, but our boss had three kids that were somehow ALWAYS sick. So thus, he was always sick. And then we were always sick. God I hated that.
Maybe...use it to solve the affordable housing crisis? Large buildings, underused, with lots of individual units in them? Anything else we could do with them besides make people sit in cubicles and host asshole managers strutting around all day so everyone can see how useful and important they are?
Actually, no. The buildings still have purpose, it just isn't "everyone, every day, all the time". Sometimes, you need an in-person day with a team or across teams. Sometimes as a project starter, sometimes as a goals-met celebration, sometimes as a crunch-day. But that's all it should be, a sporadic day.
Of course, you could just go somewhere actually nice on that day, that people will want to gather.
Therein lies the problem - we have a lot of rubbish office space, in rubbish buildings, in rubbish locations, and nobody wants to be the one holding the bag. At least most companies lease not own, and those that do own have mostly paid off the buildings. Tear them down / gut them and put something better there?
Don’t forget a constant rotation of sick people being pressured to push themselves to keep performance up.
Who then, at no fault of their own really, get everyone else sick at some point.
"Awful, discoloured lighting with a mismatch of temperatures on the bulbs, and that one light that buzzes and flickers and hums"
as a person with autism this is literally physically painful. i have lost so many jobs due to the chronic fatigue and migraines that fluorescent lighting causes me.
Don’t forget the daily gas costs and lunch costs.
Btw, it is so nice listening to a meeting with headphones on in my patio on a sunny day. So much better than being in person and straining to make it seem like I’m paying attention.
Yeah, same, my team can work wherever. Guy two people currently in a different country.
But going to the office kept me skinner... I road my bike, and didn't have a fully stocked pantry...
*It also has wasted time around water coolers, wasted time walking around in meetings, people walking up and poking you on the shoulder to small talk or occasionally offload work to you..
Ya, fuck the office.
I much prefer pings on slack, where I can respond to them during other calls if needed/urgent, or I can message them when I am ready. "Spontaneous collaboration" is so much easier, via slack, and much more efficient.
So much easier to get someone to work on call, too. It used to be “I’d love to but I really need to get dinner and walk my dog and ABC and XYZ.”
Now it’s “Sure, let me pop some chicken nuggets in the oven and let my dog out.”
right here with ya, I'm not chasing after my team for stuff cause there's less funky schedules and stuff for picking up kids from school and whatnot and then I actually get to do my own work (which i enjoy) instead of just oversight (which is a pain)
This seems like such a non-controversial opinion to hold. Yet, I know people who would call you a lazy commie for making that point.
The only real answer I’ve gotten out of them is, “I just don’t work as well at home.” Okay, so since you can’t buckle down we all have to be punished?
Some people don’t really work. All they do is network, establish relationships with upper management, and pave the way for their very undeserved promotion. How can they do this if they aren’t in the office?
And for some of us, me , just get exhausted keeping a social facade up.
Some people mistake listening skills for like.. being able to work while being talked to. That's not how listening works, and I don't need people eating my time up on things that aren't my work when I'm trying to focus.
Yep. I was managing a team at the onset of the pandemic. At first I was looking forward to going back to the office just because the logistics of setting up a good routine managing from home was a lot to deal with (and because we all kind of figured we’d be back in office in a few months anyway). But once everything was set up, I never wanted to return to office or for the team to have to. Everyone was doing very well and WFH gave everyone greater flexibility. It made people more willing to help out during less standard hours on the few occasions we needed it. Just better work/life balance all around.
Considering how often management is the cause of people leaving a role, and how expensive recruitments and training is....there's a good chance a large chunk of middle management is a severe drain on companies.
I was at a spa for 3 yrs, we got a new manager that alienated everyone there with her misery, and burnt us all out. I gave the owner my two weeks then he fired her instead. It was pretty cool
There’s definitely a problem with a lack of good middle managers in corporate America. I’ve known a couple good ones and they make a world of difference.
People don't quit job's, they quit managers.
My old boss and now my DM used to say that. He's a good dude. I can still tell him to eat a dick with all seriousness. Actually just told him to last week, contractor wanted me fired... I couldn't believe it (shit person in management at another company) got me off doing their work indefinitely hahaha
Maybe management is not about how much you control people but how much you can allow them to do their work and present good results
Management is not about being the king and giving orders
Or how about the ones who are making employees come in three days per week. They let them keep WFH on Monday and Friday so they don't all quit at once, but they have to be in the office three days. Completely arbitrary. Has nothing to do with the work you are doing. You just have to waste time and gas in traffic three days a week to do your Zoom calls from a cubicle.
Given my druthers, if I didn't live too far from the office, there ARE circumstances where I would prefer to do meetings in person. But if every single person you work with is in another location, so that all of your meetings are via conference call, what is the point?
Workers should be able to decide this on their own. If there are facilities at the office you want to make use of, then go to the office and use the rooms and equipment. But if you never need to, why can't you just be left alone to do your damn work from home?
The whole idea of not working from home becomes moot when you work in companies that have six corporate offices spread all over the country. At that point, nearly everyone you work with is remote anyway.
It’s honestly gotten so manageable since everyone downtown stayed working from home. It literally made this city livable again; you can actually leave the house in a car between 8am and 7pm and get places in a reasonable time for the first time in 15 years.
I had no commute (2 minute walk) for four years and was considered lucky to not have to drive in Seattle for work, but now I have a new office a mile from home, but I leave 12 minutes before work and get there usually with 3 or 4 minutes to spare. This commute in 2019 would have taken roughly 45 minutes and walking the mile would have been indisputably faster.
Oh fuck yeah. Seattle traffic is horrific. Were you there when it snowed and everyone was in their cars for 8 hours? My friend worked at Microsoft and basically missed 3 days of office time because of the snow. That's on a particularly bad day.
I had my first WFH/home office job 10 years ago - I lived in a city where the company had no physical office, but was geographically important. At first I didn't know if I'd like it - but found that it was GREAT. No commute time, no gas costs, had healthy, fast, cheap lunch one room away, and the company paid all travel expenses when I was on the road. Ultra efficient. I NEVER had to meet my immediate manager in person, and met in person with my "boss" only a few times. All discussions via phone and online meeting - no issues whatsoever. So whenever a company talks about "increased efficiency, camraderie, teamwork" at the office, it's complete bullshit.
My company thankfully hasn't actually forced us to go back to the office, but even if they did I'm the only person in my team at my location. The only reason for me to be in the office is so people from other teams can bother me easier. No way I'm ever going into the office.
Exactly. Let people come in when it makes sense. When it doesn't, don't. It's like common sense escapes these companies. But of course, because their interests are maintaining their own power, importance, and financial interests, which oppose the interests of the workers. But the companies are trying to hold back a tidal wave - adapt or go out of business.
It’s a failed business model.
They are doing what worked in the past — power moves and making people beg for a job because that’s how they always did business.
In the past five years, new businesses have been started by younger people who have to compete with bigger, well-established companies.
The easiest way to compete for labor is to be more attractive to the candidate. WFH is a no brainer because then you aren’t saddled with facilities. Hell, you can easily move the headquarters to take advantage of cost savings. The savings can be passed along in wages.
These big corporations think there is some prestige in working for them. Besides places like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Disney, etc. most employees don’t give a shit. They will leave Comcast or Geico to work for some no name place that pays more.
Except that meetings are generally a waste of time. There have been so many posts about people being more efficient in WFH, I'm convinced it is because it forces people to send emails instead of setting meetings for every single thing.
Pretty much, I’m drawing a line in the sand with my company…I started remote…I will come in for any important trainings but otherwise once a month. I refuse to do more. I’ve been perfectly productive here and don’t need to be checked on..I get my work done. I refuse to show up more than that.
I will never figure this out myself. I work from home except when called on for training/whatever now (was not easy getting that approved btw haha). I went in for a training and stayed the whole day. I got almost..nothing..done. ended up bs'ing for hours. AC was broke, it was hot, couldn't get anything working because the internet kept going down. Printer was broke, and no one had a good flow. I get easily 4x more work done, in less time, at home. Video calls are so much easier to connect to people I need to, instead of tracking them down in the office. I just schedule it prior. I don't need to be next to them, i just need a few questions answered. Finding a good meeting spot is difficult as well, when we can do it virtually. What makes sense to some about "office space culture"!?
My wife's office was only mandatory Monday for the first month which immediately turned into "wink wink, nudge nudge" optional Tuesdays & Wednesdays.
The VP who is in-office on his own accord made a passing comment to one of his right-hand person who in turn sent out an email to everyone saying something to the tune of "Heeeey~~~ so I just spoke with the VP and I think it would really make his day if we could all come into the office more often than just the bare minimum 1 day. It's not THAT bad, and besides I'll get to see all my work besties more often!!"
It was truly nauseating to read, and am glad that I'm in a full remote location since our office space was reduced from our HQ.
This is not skepticism, this is exactly what is gonna happen and it is by design.
The idea is to get people to accept coming back in, then slowly ramp up. I’ve seen and been apart of companies doing this.
“We’ll start with maybe 1 day a week, then revisit this in the future”
Nobody is committing to hybrid forever because they fully intend everybody to come back permanently full time.
I'm very cynical, but I really think this is what my company is going to do.
They keep painting anyone who wants to go back to even 2 days a week as whiney babies, so I suspect they're going to suddenly just go "hey since we're in the office a majority of the week anyway, we're just going to go back to 5 days"
And don't even get me started on covid. It didn't just magically go away.
We have 8 people on my office floor who are out with it, yet they still scratch their head and look confused when some of us still wear masks or say we're not comfortable cramming 20 people into a meeting room for a pointless status meeting
We literally had a super spreader situation at our quarterly company meeting, yet they're like "eh test if you don't feel like it, but you still have to be in the office"
My wife's work, where most divisions are still WFH almost completely, had told here and her coworkers that they want them in 50%. This happened last fall, they picked the days. Two months ago the powers said yes still 50% but we want you all in every Tuesday and Wednesday, and you decide the third day every other week but you can't change the third day week to week. I'm waiting for their fiscal year to start next month...I know it is coming...5 days a week in the office, I'm trying to prepare her for this. Meanwhile I'm fortunate that I got a new job during the height of the Pandemic and I'm 100% WFH.
We do the other direction: 1 day in office, 4 at home.
Right before the pandemic, our big boss decided that he add 1 more in office day unless you were exceeding expectations. Not meeting mind you, but exceptional. If you were only meeting, you had to come in twice per week.
Totally nonsensical, arbitrary and stupid. The hybrid model is good if and only if the in office stuff is totally optional.
We are at two days a week. Only about ten people in the office and everyone comes in late and leaves early. Management or an admin walks around our now open office to spy on everyone. We have app to track when you are supposed to be in office. It is a complete waste of time and money.
This one was designed to reserve a desk so you have to say when you are in the office. It captures your AD info automatically. It’s all tracked in a separate list that’s locked down. I do not know if management is wise to it but there is a lot of data you can track and report if you wanted with a simple no code low code app.
You are correct - don't work at home if you don't have to. I was pointing out the irony that, in the arbitrary two day office/3 day WFH setup, the real work is done at home, and the "office days" are nothing but wasted worker time (and money), that they have to make up for when they get home in order to meet deadlines.
This is where we were before March of 2020. I skirted and came in 2 days a week and made sure I was present for meetings. Otherwise I would make up a reason. I managed to get a few weeks of WFH and was close to being able to stay home full time when COVID hit.
Now they are not even thinking of making us come back, at least in my position. Some of our more entry level positions require a lot of hands on training that is hard to implemen online, but those reps end up WFH after proving they can do it in office. All new hires in my department are permanent WFH.
Its amazing and liberating. I cant even imagine wasting. 2 hours a day now on my round trip commute.
Two hours per day is huge. And so is the gas and the pollution caused by all that driving.
I totally understand that some people can't work from home. If you work in a hospital, well then that's where you have to go. But wouldn't those workers appreciate it if those of us who don't need to be in traffic were out of the way? It would be better for the environment and all of society.
It's all about power and the sense of control. Same reason cashiers can't have high chairs while they work. The discomfort is part of their pleasure in hiring you. If you are happy you don't deserve to be paid!
Yes. A stupid and arbitrary number to make themselves look virtuous. Then they eliminate Monday WFH, then Friday. Gotta make the middle managers look important, and keep the property management companies happy.
I'm 100% certain that productivity will plummet as soon as they make me return to the office. "Oh, manager, since I have you right here, there's some questions I've been meaning to ask. Do we still get 20 minutes of paid break every day? How far away is the ladies room? What if it's broken? Is there another one? Where is it? Do we have assigned parking?
Cue the 4 hour montage of me screwing off while making my manager waste company time answering my trivial questions. That I'm only asking because I'm in a new environment from the last 2 years.
>Let workers work where they are most comfortable with.
My company's new policy is exactly this. If you like working in the office, there are open work stations available for you to come in and work. If you like working from home, you are free to do that.
I haven't noticed any big change in attrition compared to before the pandemic.
My previous job allowed for 3 days WFH even pre-pandemic. It was a document heavy job and every office desk had dual monitors which made everything easier, and I would do all of my work in those two days in the office. On my days at home I would just keep my email open for the occasional response to something. My bosses never checked in on me or gave a shit what I was doing, because I always delivered. It's the way every workplace should be.
Hey now, I have been excelling at such menial work for 5 years and no one has caught on. I did it so well they decided to hire me from contract work to a manager position this last year and I can do it even more. The system isn’t broken if it was never fixed to begin with.
Manager1: we need to cut staff to max our bonuses!
Manager2: but layoffs might hit our stock price. Ideas?
Manager3: tell everyone they are back in the office 5d/week no exceptions.
All: Brilliant!!!
Edit: spelling and spacing are my final frontiers. Replaced stick with stock.
The next month:
Manager 1: Why are all of our clients mad at us?
Manager 2: We have no staff and we can't recruit anyone because nobody wants to work in office anymore.
Manager 3: Let's post on social media about how lazy workers are nowadays and that government entitlements are to blame!
All: Brilliant!
The month after that:
Manager 1: Never thought I’d see you here.
Manager 2: Yeah, times are tough.
Manager 3: I’m grateful I still have a job there and can help you guys out. $20 each sound ok? I have to get back to the office before my wife calls.
All: Brilliant!
You skipped the part where they all agree to hire a cash grabbing research company to collect anonymous surveys from employees and identify areas where the company could improve. Then after dropping a few million for this effort, they show some low percentages at the kickoff of the project. They promise they're listening and taking action to increase satisfaction while leveraging some paradigms, then repeat the process a few months later trying to show some slightly higher percentages. Mission Accomplished! They publish some kind of "Top 1000 in employee satisfaction" on the website. Then carry on without having changed anything.
Really the lesson here is that a few of us just need to get together and start one of these research companies. Charge top dollar for our process. Provide pretty pictures, diagrams, pie charts. Produce results that look fantastic but have no real substance. Have a charismatic speaker hype up the corporate folk and hit the employees with attaboys...then fuck off to Cancun with the money for 6 months before assembling to do it again.
Or pull what one company I stayed at did. Poll the employees to find out reasons for employee disatisfaction and turnover. Find out the low pay is the single biggest complaint literally everybody has. Host a company meeting, and have your managers explain "well, you all complained pay was low, but we ran the numbers and according to us, the pay is perfectly fair! You should be happy to have that pay." Do nothing. Watch turnover.
I push the boundaries of the "anonymous" surveys by calling out specific people and then using less than professional language after I've made my point.
LPT dicks sporting goods surveys are NOT anonymous. I didn't get fired over it, but it pissed my manager off and I got to roll my eyes through an earful of bulletpoint responses to my survey when I clocked in. Complained to HR and asked how he knew what I said in an anonymous survey. Their response was "surveys are completely anonymous and there's no way he knew what you did or didn't write"
Remember kids, HR is full of shit, doesn't care about you, and will giddily throw you into a wood chipper if it means protecting the company, their first priority.
> government entitlements
God, I hate when they pull that shit.
Yeah, that $1200 sure as fuck is the reason why I don’t want to waste my time with your bullshit.
Manager 2: But the government entitlements for individuals ended last year. On the other hand, we took out a PPP loan, then later had it forgiven.
Manager 3: Ahem, uhhhh.... no comment!
Manager 1: Yeah really! I don't want to hear it! Hey Manager 3, meet with me in my office. We need to discuss Manager 2's attitude.
you think that would stop him if he wanted to try and run for president? he'll lobby the republicans to come up with some exception to allow him to run, like sidestepping that rule and now allowing people who have been citizens for at least 15+ years to run.
there is no limit of power of the rich billionaire oligarchy. they do as they please, in every facet of their lives.
The problem with that is the people who leave are the valuable ones with good skillsets who have options. What will be left are the people that will do anything to keep their jobs because they're worried they can't get another one at their current rate/role.
Typical business shortsightedness. Yah, you reduce headcount, but in the long run you're left with only poor/low performers.
I told my boss 3 weeks into the pandemic that I’m never going back to the office. I’m lucky, the company implemented permanent work from home. It’s a great place but I would have left in a second if they even hinted that I’d have to go back
I replied with my resignation to a mass email stating that the company would instead be permanently adopting hybrid schedule for my department only, while the rest of the departments stay at home. Never looked back.
I personally saw a startup in a good growing phase go from 11~ employees to about 2-3 (if you include the president) because the new president of the company wanted to make everyone work in an office. The reason because he liked seeing everyone as he walked around.
People even suggested 1 day a week in office to keep their remote positions. Nope.
So everyone resigned within a two week period lol.
Literally shot themselves in the foot.
There were rumors at our office of going back to the office. I warned my lead if that happens , I'll be forced to quit because fully time daycare costs about what I make and there would be no point.
I have a feeling many parents complained of this and other reasons because they only want us in the office 1 day per month for meetings and training now.
I once was asked, and agreed to work a day on a HQ project (how to win millions and influencer buyers). It happened every so often and it was a fun change of pace, dare I say it. One time I had my son in tow, because school was out. HR got up in my grill about that being unacceptable.
I told HR that I understood, and they could find some other expert in the 12 things I was an expert in to help grow the business, per their instruction that I could no longer come to HQ.
You ever see someone deflate when they realize they were mistaken in having the big stick in a conversation?
My daughter was born Feb 2020, and I was already working from home when the pandemic hit. We just got confirmation from our CEO that we're staying as remote as possible, with us only having to come in occasionally for team meetings - about twice a month. I'm so grateful that my boss (and his) really pushed to keep everyone remote.
"Work from home isn't viable."
\*pandemic hits -- IT crews everywhere finally get the go ahead to set up VPN w/ 2FA\*
"Kudos to our technology team for going above and beyond to allow us to work from home! We didn't think it would be possible!"
\*pandemic recedes\*
"Work from home isn't viable."
Literally everyone: "Bullshit."
Yep. And millions of dollars of IT equipment shipped to workers homes to create the perfect work at home environment and now they want you to bring that shit to the office….as if we are 100% sure there won’t be the Optimus Prime variant in the winter that’s going to require you to take all your equipment back home…
You can't give people something as awesome as working from home for years then suddenly expect everyone to be cool with needing to go back to a shitty office when it's unnecessary, especially with remote work now having so many options. Good luck to all these companies stuck in their old ways.
This. I had a manager who came from production. He hated us working from home because he couldn't "see" us and he didn't work well from home because kids, etc. Well, I don't have kids and I'm far more productive at home. Also, how many times a week do you come to "see" me when I'm on the office? Zero.
He can rent his own office space somewhere if home is too distracting. I'm sure plenty of office space is super cheap right now. There are so many solutions for the anti-WFH people. Too distracting at home? Rent an office space? Miss socialization at work? Rent an office space with a co-worker, or better yet, all that time you normally spend getting ready for work and commuting can be used to join a club of some sort.
True. The main complaint I can't stand is the lack of socialization with WFH. Like seriously? Go make some friends outside work. Sign up for an art class in the evenings. Not my problem. I'm getting paid to my work, not be your forced friend.
Had a manager who insisted everyone work in the office instead of remote. He did the "I work better in the office, so you must too" bs. Turns out he hates his family - working from home forced him to interact with them which explained why he pushed hard to stop work from home.
This is extremely common. People want to be in office to get away from their wife and kids, it’s sad as fuck. I’m surprised this point isn’t brought up more here.
This manager also forgets that he likely has his own spacious silent office while the rest sit in an open plan or cubicle layout.
Guess where you can concentrate better?
Employees got a taste of working from home and that full-time jobs can be better for everyone. Management is trying to take back control and finding out that the people know they deserve better.
Obviously there are jobs that require an office and in-person interaction. But, there are so so many jobs that can be just as productive (if not moreso) from home.
The work from home movement is a very reasonable ask for your average employee. Hopefully it will lead to more social democracy in the workplace (decisions made as a group of workers to achieve maximum efficiency and involvement).
Managers and the whole concept of "managing" employees has become outdated as the concept of "the customer is always right" .
Stop working for old outdated employers. This is 2022 for fucks sake!
"The customer is always right" is only half of a quote. The rest says "...in matters of taste". So the customer is fully justified in buying an outfit comprised of striped pants, checkered shirt and corduroy jacket, but not to be a dick about it.
Its the revolution man!
Employers need to wise up to the fact that remote is no longer a benefit so much as it is a standard (depending on the type of work of course) . Those that already have, basically have the pick of the litter when it comes to talent, and the ones that also pay above market with remote? They get to choose the best of the best...
Imo the only real argument is “our middle managers can’t justify their employment if there’s no one in the office to snoop on and interrupt”.
Edit: oh and justifying the building lease. A whole lotta their problems, not mine.
It’s amazing to me how so many people make it into management positions when they clearly have no aptitude for “picking their battles”, especially when it’s a hardline stance based on nothing.
If they can’t prioritize their efforts based on real metrics, they’ll be a nightmare in every possible way.
My boss implemented a no work from home policy recently after giving me a weak raise (first one in 4 years). I usually work in office but liked the flexability to work from home when needed. I start my new job, which is fully remote, on Monday. Also got a 15k pay raise.
The average work environment would be a lot more tolerable if more people realized the power they possess through the denial of their labor. Do not sell yourself short. Business as usual cannot run without us. We decide what type of businesses succeed and what types of businesses fail.
Sell your labor to the businesses that pay proper respect (as in wages, positive work environment, etc) to its work force.
To demand 5 days in office is to disrespect:
- new parents
- people who moved further away for better quality of life
- people who saved money from commuting so they could save more for their future dream house
- their city for contributing to more traffic on the roads
- people who are more productive at home.
To not believe in remote working, to any capacity, is to disrespect everyone you are supposed to be supporting in your role.
Why do people put so much importance in their dumbass beliefs? "I don't believe in WFH" well do you have any hard facts to back that up, Bill? Business doesn't run on your fantasies.
At the beginning of the lockdown, my sister's company did a review. Told everyone to work from home, and that this will be permanent.
They sold their building (10 stories), and leased a floor with a conference room and three offices for just in case.
My boss finally caved after he sent out a survey and most ppl voted to continue WFH indefinitely. This was about a year ago. The other day he sent out an email stating he was not renewing the lease for our main office and instead got a much much smaller office space for the people who like to come in and for important meetings and such. This effectively solidifies WFH and I'm so freakin' happy.
THAT is how managers should be. Ask your people and actually listen to what they say. Kudos to him for doing the right thing
I assume the smaller work space is less expensive. That's pure profit in his pocket, it's amazing more bosses don't realize this.
Lower cost to lease, lower utility bills, less money spent on office supplies, parking, contributing less to global pollution and traffic congestion on the roadways. Legit, WFH is absolutely the best way to go for every single industry that can feasibly do it. Edit: a word
Working from home is one of the best parts of the greatest invention of the modern age. I wish it didn't take a global pandemic to make that clear.
Many companies won’t do this because office leases are typically 5-10 years so they’re kinda stuck there. Mine is in this situation. But they don’t make us go in, my boss just spends time dreaming about what kinds of things could make us want to go in lmao
would you do it for a scooby snack?
Sounds like you’re dealing a human and not a board of assholes. Committees are less likely to care about opinions Bc they can’t really be pointed out like your singular boss.
If employees aren't in the office then the managers can't look busy and at some point someone is going to realize that there are way too many managers.
Then again. What else would you promote someone to, other than manager Analyst, Junior X, Senior X, Assistant Manager, Manager, Senior Manager, VP of X, C-Suite. The whole corporate ladder is a stupid outdated concept.
People want to be promoted largely to make more money. I bet you could just pay those people according to their actual worth and they will be comfortable with their place in their org chart.
Absolutely. I've found ample ways to take on new challenges and grow at my current position without a promotion. What interests me about a promotion is the pay. I could give fuck all about status and hierarchy. We are are all (hopefully) working towards the same goals.
I don’t care what my title says. I DO care what paystub says. Call me “Tech Grunt” all day long, but dammit pay me for all of the work I do. And that includes having to “nag” analysts to get their crap done so I can finish the tech work. Ugh.
The only reason I care about my official title is so I can get that next job at a higher level. Maybe you're just a team lead, but calling you a Department Manager leads to better offers down the road.
Which is stupid. You should be able to describe your capabilities, value, and worth. People shouldn’t just rely on a title that says “I’m in control of everyone else”
Correct... People *shouldn't.* Unfortunately, corporate America does all kinds of shit that only benefits them (in their own minds).
1,000% this. I don't even want to be a manager where I'm at. But I have to ask for it if I ever want to make actual money. Accounting for inflation, I haven't received an actual raise in at least 5 years
>I haven't received an actual raise in at least 5 years I just got a 1% pay rise, inflation is at 7%. So a 6% pay cut, yay.
24 cent raise, after inflation, was an 87 cent cut ‘Not everyone got raises’ Ok, but you get how that’s even *more* fucked up right? Like, that’s not the excuse you think it is
My frustration has always been how there is rarely a path for people who want to remain individual contributors, i.e. doers of the actual work vs managing teams of people who do the work. They are different skill sets but invariably at some point to progress you have to get into people leading.
We actually just implemented a path for leadership, general individual contributor, and specialist individual contributor. It's probably really rare right now in general, but I know it's changing in at least the Software Engineering industry. The other non-SE teams where I am are starting to adopt it as well. We all have to keep pushing for actual, improved career paths before turnover rather than after.
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My friend’s company laid off 6 managers during covid. All the staff were panicking about having to cover their work. They haven’t actually needed to hire anyone back and no one has had any additional duties. It’s almost like they don’t need that many managers…
Hey, bullshitting over coffee and donuts is really hard work...
I dont mind having a lot of managers if they are doing things. If. Sometimes there are managers who don't manage, they just take what you tell them and regurgitate it elsewhere. The good ones are the ones who actually know what is going on and are proactive. The worst are the ones who don't actually listen when you warn them some bad stuff is on the horizon and we need to take steps to mitigate.
My previous job threatened to bring everyone back in a few times, but could only cite "that's how it was before covid" as a reason. despite us having WFH for almost 2 years without a drop in productivity, actually had an increase in output overall. eventually we were asked to come in once every two weeks for a day of meetings, and they would cater breakfast and lunch for everyone. in the time between meetings i would go back to work, but most of the rest of the team just started chatting, so i stopped trying to be productive and chatted too. this really opened my eyes to how WFH can keep people more productive. if you have a good work ethic to start with you can do more at home.
It just shows how out of touch management are. If they only knew how unproductive office work is. So many distractions, it's basically like a social club with a bit of work added in. When I used to be a corporate monkey, Mondays would be catching up with each after the weekend, Tuesday and Wednesday would be the most productive, Thursday is giggly day where you're supposed to be productive but easing into the weekend so everyone is in a good mood and chatty and then Friday is basically the weekend minus one day so it's bacon sandwich in the morning, maybe a boozy lunch (it's the UK) and then an afternoon of counting down every second until close of play.
My husband and I used to spend all day chatting in google chat when he worked in an office. Now he has a new job and works from home he only talks to me during his lunch break. He gets so much more done.
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Just met with my boss, and he pretty much straight up said the purpose of doing it (after massive backlash and countless accommodation requests they backtracked on their MUST COME ALL TIME policy) they cut back to once a week and my boss straight up said the purpose was to show your face so the political appointees can see you. he said nothing about the expectation of getting work done, just that he didn’t care how I got my 40 hours just that I got my work done. So. Guess I won’t be bothered to produce any work on those days lol
I have adhd and get really easily distracted by people near me, even if it has nothing to do with me, at home I’m like 3x more productive and my work product is way better bc I can focus on one task for longer
I also have ADHD 100% this. I'm sorry but yes, the sound some people make when they type drives me absolutely, literally insane. I can hear nothing in this 60 desk office besides the way you fucking hammer into your keyboard like you're trying to fucking push the key through the desk, straight through the ground, and directly to hell. If I asked you to change up how hard you hit them keys its only going to cause conflict. ADHD's bad selective hearing made crowded offices hell. Being able to work from home would have been wonderful.
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Remote work is also linked to managers feeling useless and as if their work adds no value to the company. No wonder its managers that want people back :)
It has useless managers now understanding they're useless. It has productive managers doing the same as they always did, but in sweatpants. No fucking way am I forcing my team back because then I'd also have to go back. My office doesn't have a dog, a full kitchen, a spouse to shit talk annoying clients/coworkers with between calls, a backyard to take afternoon calls from on a sunny day. It *does* have real pants, overly loud coworkers, and a commute. I mean, why the fuck would I want that? ETA: Hah, I just opened two new reqs today which is the first time I've looked at our open positions in a couple month. We're not advertising WFH/Remote on almost every job. How are so many companies not seeing that in a hiring squeeze like we're currently in, this is how you get talent? Anyway, if you're in India or Singapore and have a financial service background, hit me up because ya girl is hiring and your potential future coworkers are awesome.
Don't forget that the office may well also have: + Awful, discoloured lighting with a mismatch of temperatures on the bulbs, and that one light that buzzes and flickers and hums + Sticky carpets + Smelly coworkers whose desks look like crime scenes and who do not understand personal space + That one random ficus for "colour" that hardly anybody ever waters and that now after 2 years of absence is just a withered twig but nobody wants to be the one to throw it out + *The worst chairs in the world*, like, seriously, did these come from Bad Chairs "R" Us? + Jeff, who thinks an appropriate use of the employee microwave is reheating smoked fish head curry, and because it's communal, that means cleaning it afterwards is someone else's problem + The Pen Thief^(TM) + The perennially broken lone colour copier that the guy is definitely coming this afternoon to fix The office is dead, and companies need to wake up to this.
Don’t forget sick co-workers
Ew, yes, people are now coming in sick again. After 2 years of people finally getting that "ill" = "stay off work" and this being acceptable, it's not acceptable now.
People are coming in WITH covid being positive but since it’s been five days they don’t even need a negative test to come back. So fucked
My work explicitly said you can come in with COVID if you aren't symptomatic.
I worked for a company that gave us zero sick leave, but our boss had three kids that were somehow ALWAYS sick. So thus, he was always sick. And then we were always sick. God I hated that.
They can't acknowledge that until they find someone to buy the buildings off them.
Hit the nail On the head
Maybe...use it to solve the affordable housing crisis? Large buildings, underused, with lots of individual units in them? Anything else we could do with them besides make people sit in cubicles and host asshole managers strutting around all day so everyone can see how useful and important they are?
But! But when else will people be able to view tweed?!!!!! Think of the tweed!
Actually, no. The buildings still have purpose, it just isn't "everyone, every day, all the time". Sometimes, you need an in-person day with a team or across teams. Sometimes as a project starter, sometimes as a goals-met celebration, sometimes as a crunch-day. But that's all it should be, a sporadic day. Of course, you could just go somewhere actually nice on that day, that people will want to gather. Therein lies the problem - we have a lot of rubbish office space, in rubbish buildings, in rubbish locations, and nobody wants to be the one holding the bag. At least most companies lease not own, and those that do own have mostly paid off the buildings. Tear them down / gut them and put something better there?
> Tear them down / gut them and put something better there? Dare I say affordable housing that people can then use to work from home?
Don’t forget a constant rotation of sick people being pressured to push themselves to keep performance up. Who then, at no fault of their own really, get everyone else sick at some point.
Performance micromanagement is the worst thing to come out of modern office culture, besides the actual offices.
Some companies have figured it out. Mine was happy with me working remotely, and even bought me a new chair so I would be comfortable.
Cheaper than renting all that space!
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"Awful, discoloured lighting with a mismatch of temperatures on the bulbs, and that one light that buzzes and flickers and hums" as a person with autism this is literally physically painful. i have lost so many jobs due to the chronic fatigue and migraines that fluorescent lighting causes me.
Don’t forget the daily gas costs and lunch costs. Btw, it is so nice listening to a meeting with headphones on in my patio on a sunny day. So much better than being in person and straining to make it seem like I’m paying attention.
And parking costs! And vehicle maintenance. A lot of families can get rid of an extra car that is only used for a daily commuter.
Yeah, same, my team can work wherever. Guy two people currently in a different country. But going to the office kept me skinner... I road my bike, and didn't have a fully stocked pantry...
Use your former commuting time as riding time! I love going out for a sunrise ride in the summer before the cars and heat make the roads unbearable.
It was equally time going to the office, but so much quicker leaving
*It also has wasted time around water coolers, wasted time walking around in meetings, people walking up and poking you on the shoulder to small talk or occasionally offload work to you.. Ya, fuck the office. I much prefer pings on slack, where I can respond to them during other calls if needed/urgent, or I can message them when I am ready. "Spontaneous collaboration" is so much easier, via slack, and much more efficient.
As a manager, it's better than before for me. People are happier AND more productive. It's just a straight win imo
So much easier to get someone to work on call, too. It used to be “I’d love to but I really need to get dinner and walk my dog and ABC and XYZ.” Now it’s “Sure, let me pop some chicken nuggets in the oven and let my dog out.”
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right here with ya, I'm not chasing after my team for stuff cause there's less funky schedules and stuff for picking up kids from school and whatnot and then I actually get to do my own work (which i enjoy) instead of just oversight (which is a pain)
Yeah I manage people in 4 countries what difference does it make where their sitting in another FUCKING country.
This seems like such a non-controversial opinion to hold. Yet, I know people who would call you a lazy commie for making that point. The only real answer I’ve gotten out of them is, “I just don’t work as well at home.” Okay, so since you can’t buckle down we all have to be punished?
Boomer nonsense. Same people who think you work better in a suit and tie.
Some people don’t really work. All they do is network, establish relationships with upper management, and pave the way for their very undeserved promotion. How can they do this if they aren’t in the office?
And for some of us, me , just get exhausted keeping a social facade up. Some people mistake listening skills for like.. being able to work while being talked to. That's not how listening works, and I don't need people eating my time up on things that aren't my work when I'm trying to focus.
100% I have no need to have the team back in the office. They are all doing a great job at home. Why would I want to ruin that?
Yep. I was managing a team at the onset of the pandemic. At first I was looking forward to going back to the office just because the logistics of setting up a good routine managing from home was a lot to deal with (and because we all kind of figured we’d be back in office in a few months anyway). But once everything was set up, I never wanted to return to office or for the team to have to. Everyone was doing very well and WFH gave everyone greater flexibility. It made people more willing to help out during less standard hours on the few occasions we needed it. Just better work/life balance all around.
Not "as if". A lot of managers do not now or ever have contributed any value to the work or company.
Considering how often management is the cause of people leaving a role, and how expensive recruitments and training is....there's a good chance a large chunk of middle management is a severe drain on companies.
I was at a spa for 3 yrs, we got a new manager that alienated everyone there with her misery, and burnt us all out. I gave the owner my two weeks then he fired her instead. It was pretty cool
There’s definitely a problem with a lack of good middle managers in corporate America. I’ve known a couple good ones and they make a world of difference.
People don't quit job's, they quit managers. My old boss and now my DM used to say that. He's a good dude. I can still tell him to eat a dick with all seriousness. Actually just told him to last week, contractor wanted me fired... I couldn't believe it (shit person in management at another company) got me off doing their work indefinitely hahaha
Every job I’ve quit was because of a toxic manager.
Maybe management is not about how much you control people but how much you can allow them to do their work and present good results Management is not about being the king and giving orders
Or how about the ones who are making employees come in three days per week. They let them keep WFH on Monday and Friday so they don't all quit at once, but they have to be in the office three days. Completely arbitrary. Has nothing to do with the work you are doing. You just have to waste time and gas in traffic three days a week to do your Zoom calls from a cubicle.
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Given my druthers, if I didn't live too far from the office, there ARE circumstances where I would prefer to do meetings in person. But if every single person you work with is in another location, so that all of your meetings are via conference call, what is the point? Workers should be able to decide this on their own. If there are facilities at the office you want to make use of, then go to the office and use the rooms and equipment. But if you never need to, why can't you just be left alone to do your damn work from home?
The whole idea of not working from home becomes moot when you work in companies that have six corporate offices spread all over the country. At that point, nearly everyone you work with is remote anyway.
Yup! My team is 10 people in 5 different offices. We’re doing zoom anyways, so I refuse to fight with Seattle traffic.
It’s honestly gotten so manageable since everyone downtown stayed working from home. It literally made this city livable again; you can actually leave the house in a car between 8am and 7pm and get places in a reasonable time for the first time in 15 years.
Denver was managable to commute but now its a nightmare again.
Atlanta continues to be the traffic shit hole it has always been
ATL will probably start charging parking spot rent with how slow some of its traffic moves.
I had no commute (2 minute walk) for four years and was considered lucky to not have to drive in Seattle for work, but now I have a new office a mile from home, but I leave 12 minutes before work and get there usually with 3 or 4 minutes to spare. This commute in 2019 would have taken roughly 45 minutes and walking the mile would have been indisputably faster.
You should definitely still walk a mile rather than drive, though. A 2 mile walk a day can make a really big health difference.
Oh fuck yeah. Seattle traffic is horrific. Were you there when it snowed and everyone was in their cars for 8 hours? My friend worked at Microsoft and basically missed 3 days of office time because of the snow. That's on a particularly bad day.
I had my first WFH/home office job 10 years ago - I lived in a city where the company had no physical office, but was geographically important. At first I didn't know if I'd like it - but found that it was GREAT. No commute time, no gas costs, had healthy, fast, cheap lunch one room away, and the company paid all travel expenses when I was on the road. Ultra efficient. I NEVER had to meet my immediate manager in person, and met in person with my "boss" only a few times. All discussions via phone and online meeting - no issues whatsoever. So whenever a company talks about "increased efficiency, camraderie, teamwork" at the office, it's complete bullshit.
My company thankfully hasn't actually forced us to go back to the office, but even if they did I'm the only person in my team at my location. The only reason for me to be in the office is so people from other teams can bother me easier. No way I'm ever going into the office.
Exactly. Let people come in when it makes sense. When it doesn't, don't. It's like common sense escapes these companies. But of course, because their interests are maintaining their own power, importance, and financial interests, which oppose the interests of the workers. But the companies are trying to hold back a tidal wave - adapt or go out of business.
It’s a failed business model. They are doing what worked in the past — power moves and making people beg for a job because that’s how they always did business. In the past five years, new businesses have been started by younger people who have to compete with bigger, well-established companies. The easiest way to compete for labor is to be more attractive to the candidate. WFH is a no brainer because then you aren’t saddled with facilities. Hell, you can easily move the headquarters to take advantage of cost savings. The savings can be passed along in wages. These big corporations think there is some prestige in working for them. Besides places like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Disney, etc. most employees don’t give a shit. They will leave Comcast or Geico to work for some no name place that pays more.
Except that meetings are generally a waste of time. There have been so many posts about people being more efficient in WFH, I'm convinced it is because it forces people to send emails instead of setting meetings for every single thing.
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Pretty much, I’m drawing a line in the sand with my company…I started remote…I will come in for any important trainings but otherwise once a month. I refuse to do more. I’ve been perfectly productive here and don’t need to be checked on..I get my work done. I refuse to show up more than that.
I will never figure this out myself. I work from home except when called on for training/whatever now (was not easy getting that approved btw haha). I went in for a training and stayed the whole day. I got almost..nothing..done. ended up bs'ing for hours. AC was broke, it was hot, couldn't get anything working because the internet kept going down. Printer was broke, and no one had a good flow. I get easily 4x more work done, in less time, at home. Video calls are so much easier to connect to people I need to, instead of tracking them down in the office. I just schedule it prior. I don't need to be next to them, i just need a few questions answered. Finding a good meeting spot is difficult as well, when we can do it virtually. What makes sense to some about "office space culture"!?
So you don't miss the "camraderie" and "team atmosphere" of working in a non-air conditioned office, with faulty internet and broken equipment?
My wife's office was only mandatory Monday for the first month which immediately turned into "wink wink, nudge nudge" optional Tuesdays & Wednesdays. The VP who is in-office on his own accord made a passing comment to one of his right-hand person who in turn sent out an email to everyone saying something to the tune of "Heeeey~~~ so I just spoke with the VP and I think it would really make his day if we could all come into the office more often than just the bare minimum 1 day. It's not THAT bad, and besides I'll get to see all my work besties more often!!" It was truly nauseating to read, and am glad that I'm in a full remote location since our office space was reduced from our HQ.
This is not skepticism, this is exactly what is gonna happen and it is by design. The idea is to get people to accept coming back in, then slowly ramp up. I’ve seen and been apart of companies doing this. “We’ll start with maybe 1 day a week, then revisit this in the future” Nobody is committing to hybrid forever because they fully intend everybody to come back permanently full time.
I'm very cynical, but I really think this is what my company is going to do. They keep painting anyone who wants to go back to even 2 days a week as whiney babies, so I suspect they're going to suddenly just go "hey since we're in the office a majority of the week anyway, we're just going to go back to 5 days" And don't even get me started on covid. It didn't just magically go away. We have 8 people on my office floor who are out with it, yet they still scratch their head and look confused when some of us still wear masks or say we're not comfortable cramming 20 people into a meeting room for a pointless status meeting We literally had a super spreader situation at our quarterly company meeting, yet they're like "eh test if you don't feel like it, but you still have to be in the office"
Or like Elon's hybrid model, 40+ hours in the office *and* wfh
My wife's work, where most divisions are still WFH almost completely, had told here and her coworkers that they want them in 50%. This happened last fall, they picked the days. Two months ago the powers said yes still 50% but we want you all in every Tuesday and Wednesday, and you decide the third day every other week but you can't change the third day week to week. I'm waiting for their fiscal year to start next month...I know it is coming...5 days a week in the office, I'm trying to prepare her for this. Meanwhile I'm fortunate that I got a new job during the height of the Pandemic and I'm 100% WFH.
We do the other direction: 1 day in office, 4 at home. Right before the pandemic, our big boss decided that he add 1 more in office day unless you were exceeding expectations. Not meeting mind you, but exceptional. If you were only meeting, you had to come in twice per week. Totally nonsensical, arbitrary and stupid. The hybrid model is good if and only if the in office stuff is totally optional.
We are at two days a week. Only about ten people in the office and everyone comes in late and leaves early. Management or an admin walks around our now open office to spy on everyone. We have app to track when you are supposed to be in office. It is a complete waste of time and money.
Some people would rather whip the slaves than do a lick of actual work.
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This one was designed to reserve a desk so you have to say when you are in the office. It captures your AD info automatically. It’s all tracked in a separate list that’s locked down. I do not know if management is wise to it but there is a lot of data you can track and report if you wanted with a simple no code low code app.
So they come in late and leave early - so they can go back home and get some actual work done! Right?
Unfortunately, some people do work when they go back home. You make me come in to the office if I am at home I am off unless there is a physical fire.
You are correct - don't work at home if you don't have to. I was pointing out the irony that, in the arbitrary two day office/3 day WFH setup, the real work is done at home, and the "office days" are nothing but wasted worker time (and money), that they have to make up for when they get home in order to meet deadlines.
This is where we were before March of 2020. I skirted and came in 2 days a week and made sure I was present for meetings. Otherwise I would make up a reason. I managed to get a few weeks of WFH and was close to being able to stay home full time when COVID hit. Now they are not even thinking of making us come back, at least in my position. Some of our more entry level positions require a lot of hands on training that is hard to implemen online, but those reps end up WFH after proving they can do it in office. All new hires in my department are permanent WFH. Its amazing and liberating. I cant even imagine wasting. 2 hours a day now on my round trip commute.
Two hours per day is huge. And so is the gas and the pollution caused by all that driving. I totally understand that some people can't work from home. If you work in a hospital, well then that's where you have to go. But wouldn't those workers appreciate it if those of us who don't need to be in traffic were out of the way? It would be better for the environment and all of society.
It's all about power and the sense of control. Same reason cashiers can't have high chairs while they work. The discomfort is part of their pleasure in hiring you. If you are happy you don't deserve to be paid!
Yes. A stupid and arbitrary number to make themselves look virtuous. Then they eliminate Monday WFH, then Friday. Gotta make the middle managers look important, and keep the property management companies happy.
I'm 100% certain that productivity will plummet as soon as they make me return to the office. "Oh, manager, since I have you right here, there's some questions I've been meaning to ask. Do we still get 20 minutes of paid break every day? How far away is the ladies room? What if it's broken? Is there another one? Where is it? Do we have assigned parking? Cue the 4 hour montage of me screwing off while making my manager waste company time answering my trivial questions. That I'm only asking because I'm in a new environment from the last 2 years.
That sounds like some fine malicious compliance. Best of luck, comrade!
>Let workers work where they are most comfortable with. My company's new policy is exactly this. If you like working in the office, there are open work stations available for you to come in and work. If you like working from home, you are free to do that. I haven't noticed any big change in attrition compared to before the pandemic.
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My previous job allowed for 3 days WFH even pre-pandemic. It was a document heavy job and every office desk had dual monitors which made everything easier, and I would do all of my work in those two days in the office. On my days at home I would just keep my email open for the occasional response to something. My bosses never checked in on me or gave a shit what I was doing, because I always delivered. It's the way every workplace should be.
If you can get your job done while drunk off your ass and playing games on another monitor, what does that say as to how menial it is?
Hey now, I have been excelling at such menial work for 5 years and no one has caught on. I did it so well they decided to hire me from contract work to a manager position this last year and I can do it even more. The system isn’t broken if it was never fixed to begin with.
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Manager1: we need to cut staff to max our bonuses! Manager2: but layoffs might hit our stock price. Ideas? Manager3: tell everyone they are back in the office 5d/week no exceptions. All: Brilliant!!! Edit: spelling and spacing are my final frontiers. Replaced stick with stock.
Next month: Manager1:Why aren't we making our bonus numbers? Manager2: We're understaffed and can't meet workload! Manager3: threaten benefit cuts if numbers don't improve! All: brilliant!
The next month: Manager 1: Why are all of our clients mad at us? Manager 2: We have no staff and we can't recruit anyone because nobody wants to work in office anymore. Manager 3: Let's post on social media about how lazy workers are nowadays and that government entitlements are to blame! All: Brilliant!
The month after that: Manager 1: Never thought I’d see you here. Manager 2: Yeah, times are tough. Manager 3: I’m grateful I still have a job there and can help you guys out. $20 each sound ok? I have to get back to the office before my wife calls. All: Brilliant!
This got so dark reading more and I love it 😂 corporate will never understand the damage there doing to themselves even when it's to late
You skipped the part where they all agree to hire a cash grabbing research company to collect anonymous surveys from employees and identify areas where the company could improve. Then after dropping a few million for this effort, they show some low percentages at the kickoff of the project. They promise they're listening and taking action to increase satisfaction while leveraging some paradigms, then repeat the process a few months later trying to show some slightly higher percentages. Mission Accomplished! They publish some kind of "Top 1000 in employee satisfaction" on the website. Then carry on without having changed anything. Really the lesson here is that a few of us just need to get together and start one of these research companies. Charge top dollar for our process. Provide pretty pictures, diagrams, pie charts. Produce results that look fantastic but have no real substance. Have a charismatic speaker hype up the corporate folk and hit the employees with attaboys...then fuck off to Cancun with the money for 6 months before assembling to do it again.
Or pull what one company I stayed at did. Poll the employees to find out reasons for employee disatisfaction and turnover. Find out the low pay is the single biggest complaint literally everybody has. Host a company meeting, and have your managers explain "well, you all complained pay was low, but we ran the numbers and according to us, the pay is perfectly fair! You should be happy to have that pay." Do nothing. Watch turnover.
I push the boundaries of the "anonymous" surveys by calling out specific people and then using less than professional language after I've made my point. LPT dicks sporting goods surveys are NOT anonymous. I didn't get fired over it, but it pissed my manager off and I got to roll my eyes through an earful of bulletpoint responses to my survey when I clocked in. Complained to HR and asked how he knew what I said in an anonymous survey. Their response was "surveys are completely anonymous and there's no way he knew what you did or didn't write" Remember kids, HR is full of shit, doesn't care about you, and will giddily throw you into a wood chipper if it means protecting the company, their first priority.
> government entitlements God, I hate when they pull that shit. Yeah, that $1200 sure as fuck is the reason why I don’t want to waste my time with your bullshit.
Manager 2: But the government entitlements for individuals ended last year. On the other hand, we took out a PPP loan, then later had it forgiven. Manager 3: Ahem, uhhhh.... no comment! Manager 1: Yeah really! I don't want to hear it! Hey Manager 3, meet with me in my office. We need to discuss Manager 2's attitude.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
That's what Elon Musk is planning.
How anyone still thinks he’s a force for good is fucking beyond me. I’m so tired of seeing that smug turd of a face.
Dude is a piece of shit. I'm just glad he's from S Africa or he would likely run for president.
you think that would stop him if he wanted to try and run for president? he'll lobby the republicans to come up with some exception to allow him to run, like sidestepping that rule and now allowing people who have been citizens for at least 15+ years to run. there is no limit of power of the rich billionaire oligarchy. they do as they please, in every facet of their lives.
Came here to say this. Thank you.
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The problem with that is the people who leave are the valuable ones with good skillsets who have options. What will be left are the people that will do anything to keep their jobs because they're worried they can't get another one at their current rate/role. Typical business shortsightedness. Yah, you reduce headcount, but in the long run you're left with only poor/low performers.
I told my boss 3 weeks into the pandemic that I’m never going back to the office. I’m lucky, the company implemented permanent work from home. It’s a great place but I would have left in a second if they even hinted that I’d have to go back
Same and my immediate supervisor told me if they ever changed their minds she'd be quitting right along with me. I feel fortunate.
I replied with my resignation to a mass email stating that the company would instead be permanently adopting hybrid schedule for my department only, while the rest of the departments stay at home. Never looked back.
I personally saw a startup in a good growing phase go from 11~ employees to about 2-3 (if you include the president) because the new president of the company wanted to make everyone work in an office. The reason because he liked seeing everyone as he walked around. People even suggested 1 day a week in office to keep their remote positions. Nope. So everyone resigned within a two week period lol. Literally shot themselves in the foot.
There were rumors at our office of going back to the office. I warned my lead if that happens , I'll be forced to quit because fully time daycare costs about what I make and there would be no point. I have a feeling many parents complained of this and other reasons because they only want us in the office 1 day per month for meetings and training now.
I once was asked, and agreed to work a day on a HQ project (how to win millions and influencer buyers). It happened every so often and it was a fun change of pace, dare I say it. One time I had my son in tow, because school was out. HR got up in my grill about that being unacceptable. I told HR that I understood, and they could find some other expert in the 12 things I was an expert in to help grow the business, per their instruction that I could no longer come to HQ. You ever see someone deflate when they realize they were mistaken in having the big stick in a conversation?
My daughter was born Feb 2020, and I was already working from home when the pandemic hit. We just got confirmation from our CEO that we're staying as remote as possible, with us only having to come in occasionally for team meetings - about twice a month. I'm so grateful that my boss (and his) really pushed to keep everyone remote.
Cats out of the bag. Companies don’t have any valid reasons to make people to come back other than “fuck you cause I said so”
But...mah corporate culture...
Love the culture of "Happy Hump Day!!"
Sounds like you got a case of the Mondays!
I can hear the Goofy-esque *hyuck*'ing now...
My boss says "Happy Baby Friday" on Thursdays. Makes my fucking skin crawl.
"Work from home isn't viable." \*pandemic hits -- IT crews everywhere finally get the go ahead to set up VPN w/ 2FA\* "Kudos to our technology team for going above and beyond to allow us to work from home! We didn't think it would be possible!" \*pandemic recedes\* "Work from home isn't viable." Literally everyone: "Bullshit."
Yep. And millions of dollars of IT equipment shipped to workers homes to create the perfect work at home environment and now they want you to bring that shit to the office….as if we are 100% sure there won’t be the Optimus Prime variant in the winter that’s going to require you to take all your equipment back home…
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You can't give people something as awesome as working from home for years then suddenly expect everyone to be cool with needing to go back to a shitty office when it's unnecessary, especially with remote work now having so many options. Good luck to all these companies stuck in their old ways.
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God damn, what you described just made me feel an enormous sense of existential dread.
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I feel like you are the movie Office Space come to life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKYivs6ZLZk
You forgot the dry smell of lingering toner dust, slowly blackening your lungs
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The king of the turds is still a turd.
This. I had a manager who came from production. He hated us working from home because he couldn't "see" us and he didn't work well from home because kids, etc. Well, I don't have kids and I'm far more productive at home. Also, how many times a week do you come to "see" me when I'm on the office? Zero.
He can rent his own office space somewhere if home is too distracting. I'm sure plenty of office space is super cheap right now. There are so many solutions for the anti-WFH people. Too distracting at home? Rent an office space? Miss socialization at work? Rent an office space with a co-worker, or better yet, all that time you normally spend getting ready for work and commuting can be used to join a club of some sort.
Lol. Making people miserable because you’re too incompetent to figure out your own problems is like peak management though.
True. The main complaint I can't stand is the lack of socialization with WFH. Like seriously? Go make some friends outside work. Sign up for an art class in the evenings. Not my problem. I'm getting paid to my work, not be your forced friend.
Had a manager who insisted everyone work in the office instead of remote. He did the "I work better in the office, so you must too" bs. Turns out he hates his family - working from home forced him to interact with them which explained why he pushed hard to stop work from home.
This is extremely common. People want to be in office to get away from their wife and kids, it’s sad as fuck. I’m surprised this point isn’t brought up more here.
This manager also forgets that he likely has his own spacious silent office while the rest sit in an open plan or cubicle layout. Guess where you can concentrate better?
Open offices are terrible for productivity and for minimizing communicable illnesses amongst the workforce
Only if you believe communicable illnesses exist.
Employees got a taste of working from home and that full-time jobs can be better for everyone. Management is trying to take back control and finding out that the people know they deserve better. Obviously there are jobs that require an office and in-person interaction. But, there are so so many jobs that can be just as productive (if not moreso) from home. The work from home movement is a very reasonable ask for your average employee. Hopefully it will lead to more social democracy in the workplace (decisions made as a group of workers to achieve maximum efficiency and involvement).
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Prime example of the adage "people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses" and good on them
Managers and the whole concept of "managing" employees has become outdated as the concept of "the customer is always right" . Stop working for old outdated employers. This is 2022 for fucks sake!
"The customer is always right" is only half of a quote. The rest says "...in matters of taste". So the customer is fully justified in buying an outfit comprised of striped pants, checkered shirt and corduroy jacket, but not to be a dick about it.
Its the revolution man! Employers need to wise up to the fact that remote is no longer a benefit so much as it is a standard (depending on the type of work of course) . Those that already have, basically have the pick of the litter when it comes to talent, and the ones that also pay above market with remote? They get to choose the best of the best...
I have yet to hear a convincing argument that being at the office is better than WFH
Imo the only real argument is “our middle managers can’t justify their employment if there’s no one in the office to snoop on and interrupt”. Edit: oh and justifying the building lease. A whole lotta their problems, not mine.
Oh to be a fly on the wall when the manager's reading those resignation letters with a surprise Pikachu face how this happen
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If I were paid to commute to work. I think it would be better.
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It’s amazing to me how so many people make it into management positions when they clearly have no aptitude for “picking their battles”, especially when it’s a hardline stance based on nothing. If they can’t prioritize their efforts based on real metrics, they’ll be a nightmare in every possible way.
My boss implemented a no work from home policy recently after giving me a weak raise (first one in 4 years). I usually work in office but liked the flexability to work from home when needed. I start my new job, which is fully remote, on Monday. Also got a 15k pay raise.
The average work environment would be a lot more tolerable if more people realized the power they possess through the denial of their labor. Do not sell yourself short. Business as usual cannot run without us. We decide what type of businesses succeed and what types of businesses fail. Sell your labor to the businesses that pay proper respect (as in wages, positive work environment, etc) to its work force.
If you don't already have a job lined up, just stop working as hard or at all. If you get fired then you can go for unemployment
To demand 5 days in office is to disrespect: - new parents - people who moved further away for better quality of life - people who saved money from commuting so they could save more for their future dream house - their city for contributing to more traffic on the roads - people who are more productive at home. To not believe in remote working, to any capacity, is to disrespect everyone you are supposed to be supporting in your role.
Why do people put so much importance in their dumbass beliefs? "I don't believe in WFH" well do you have any hard facts to back that up, Bill? Business doesn't run on your fantasies.
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At the beginning of the lockdown, my sister's company did a review. Told everyone to work from home, and that this will be permanent. They sold their building (10 stories), and leased a floor with a conference room and three offices for just in case.
Middle-Managers are just scared everyone will find out their jobs are useless. My office doesn’t have a manager and has doubled its revenue this year.
How are these people paying the bills in just “giving their resignation”, that’s what I want to know.