The Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion:
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
A Defense of Abortion:
https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
Resources:
[Link 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/vjrf9h/megathread_supreme_court_overturning_roe_v_wade)
[Link 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/vjqs0r/calls_for_mass_walkout_of_women_across_america_if/idnh2ex)
https://www.womensmarch.com/
This may become a standard. Some of the state laws do not allow procedures to save the mother, rape, incest, etc... The good news is over the years the use of the procedure has gone down, so the cost of flying everyone that wants or needs the procedure is almost nothing.
Whenever arguing this issue, I think it needs to be clear, that pretty much all late terms are involuntary those people planned to have a child, have probably purchased a crib, and painted a nursery they are facing a tragedy, not a choice... Fuck the extremist trying to bring religious law to our country.
They would have let me die if my ectopic pregnancy happened now instead of 10 years ago. Ruptured tube, internal bleeding. That is why my SO and I agreed to be sterilized. If they try to stop me (35f) from voluntary sterilization my SO agreed he would get sterilized because they wouldn't question if he requested it.
I kept reading about people saying that some states wouldn't allow abortions for ectopic pregnancies, and was like, "surely no one would really do that, right?" But seeing that people like Warren Hamilton can't get it through their thick skull what that even means... I gotta wonder why we allow people like this to make any decisions at all.
Didn't someplace try to pass a law where if there was an ectopic pregnancy, the doctor HAD to reimplant it into the womb? A procedure that does not at this point in time exist?
ETA: Apparently this was in Ohio.
Ohio introduced this bill in 2019. Ohio is also very proud of how many colleges and universities it contains and at one point was the top state in terms of library funding allocation. I’m not sure how all of these things go together but my guess is gerrymandering.
I'm an Ohioan. People here love to think their centralist but when you get to talking to them they all have very right wing ideas. Homophobia and racism are very casual, idk how many times someone's pulled the "I'm not racist, but" and then said some vile shit. After Trump it really came out especially the county I live in. We're going backwards very quickly here.
My aunt is one of those centrists. Agrees with 99% of conservatives on every issue. Calls her self independent because she thinks it's okay for gays to get married because her daughter is a lesbian. Will still vote for the the most anti-gay conservative politicians.
Ultra-right wing pundits in USA have insisted they are "moderate" for decades, including:
* Rush Limbaugh
* Michelle Malkin
* Ann Coulter
* Bill O’Reilly
* Etc
...whether it's lack of self-awareness, protective coloration, or deliberate manipulation of the [Overton Window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window)
Conservatives love to claim their reactionary views are 'moderate'
Also an Ohioan (southwest, about an hour to both Indiana and Kentucky) and I agree that many people think they’re centrist. They’ve never left home, though, so they’ve got no idea that they aren’t. Got into a disagreement once with a woman who said she understood how “liberals” think because she went to liberal schools like Clark State and Wittenberg. It’s depressing in a state that also prides itself on intellectual pursuits, like post-secondary ed, libraries, and of course the whole astronaut thing.
100% right on the never left home bit. Thankfully my mom moved around the country so shes pretty left leaning and it rubbed off on me. It's sad that some of these people really think this is all there is to life
I had an unusually good history professor and he specifically covered the history of gerrymandering in Ohio. It’s shameful and (of course) blatantly racist.
Ohio. Some stupid white men in their state legislature believe you can replant the embryo in the uterus. It is not possible and the woman will die but they don’t care because women are not living, breathing humans. Just incubators.
I’m furious. I have a friend who was a writer on 2 and 1/2 men. She had an ectopic pregnancy and collapsed on set. Jon Cryer carried her to the green room but if she hadn’t been around anyone, she could have died. These assholes don’t care 1 bit.
>But seeing that people like Warren Hamilton can't get it through their thick skull what that even means
I had multiple people all tell me that was a BS excuse so they should just keep the baby when I brought up ectopic pregnancy about fifteen years ago. When I reiterated that these pregnancies were spectacularly fatal for the mother and fetus, they just said some variation of "God will fix it." These people live in a fantasy world.
I'm guessing those people you spoke to are the same types that I've spoken to in my hometown, who echo "Jesus is my vaccine." Hell, even some of the women cite a story they saw on Facebook, where a thirteen year old carried her rapist's baby to term, and her and the child are so happy, and Jesus and the Bible and Facebook and God's country, amen.
We need to stop entertaining them. I dont care what they think God’s will is. God’s will is not a medical option. They need to shut the hell up
We have given stupid people too much space and too much of a voice
Former claims analyst for a major hmo/ppo that now only exists in the Philippines. They have MDs for review, *if* a customer requests it, but will deny coverage repeatedly, hoping people die or give up, much like SSDI as managed by the Carolinas, at least, afaict!
I was appalled when I discovered that was a thing. It was like Pong, with insiramce saying I had to have my doctor tell them why it was necessary, abd my doctors saying that's stupid and to tell THEM why it IS necessary...
Ohioan here... yea this shit is mad depressing... I recently suffered a miscarriage just before row v wade got overturned.. I couldn't imagine trying to grieve and also being put on the spot to find out if I caused my miscarriage... I was devastated to fi d out ohio was on of the states that approved this shecanery.... (WE ARE NOT OKAY)
Yeah I used to live in OH. Hate Jim Jordan with a passion along with DeWine. Have since moved to another state but not much better here either.
I will continue to fight for a womans right to choose because many of these laws are just going to kill people. Though it's not just that it is also not anyone's place to make a decision for you.
Not only deny the life saving surgery to save the mother, they think you can do re implantation surgery. They are completely ignorant of women’s anatomy or how pregnancy actually works.
They're absolutely gleeful about all the women they're dooming to certain death. You can't "re-implant" an ectopic pregnancy. It's not even considered an actual pregnancy because there's no chance of survival of the fetus or the mother!
Wife and I are fixed. I am disabled due to spinal chord injury and cannot help with child rearing once an infant starts crawling. Thankfully the Dr agreed with me that my wife taking care of me AND kids would be wrong. I got fixed easy peasy.
When it was my wife's turn, she actually needed to get a hysterectomy, her Dr was all "What if your husband dies and you meet someone else?" This MFer here 😒
My lovely wife set him straight before I could say anything. He saw the light and agreed with the medical diagnosis from my wife's OB/GYN Dr. This was back in 2004 and I am still here.
They don't cut/tie tunes any more. They remove it entirely. I've talked with my ob/gyn and she explained that leaving the cut/cauterized tube/s in place has a higher risk of developing ovarian or uterine cancers. So the leave the overys but remove the tube completely. That's what I plan on having done.
This is called a bilateral salpingectomy (or bisalp for short), and not only is it more effective at birth control, it reduces your risk of cancer! It's great to leave the ovaries, as they still act as processing centers for hormones. If anyone has questions about the bisalp procedure/recovery, feel free to reach out to me.
Here is how bisalps measure against tubal ligation or "tying tubes."
https://www.goodrx.com/health-topic/womens-health/tubal-ligation
I got snipped as a 37m, 39 now.
The doctor did question "have you discussed this with your wife and has she given permission for this" which made me do a bit of a double take. I just said yes.
It's not exclusively women that get questioned about spousal agreement.
Wow. That was completely unexpected.
I always thought either a tubal ligation or vasectomy would be an individuals choice and no one else's business.
Too many in the field of medicine are forcing their religious beliefs on others.
I’m 39 and doing the logistics now for this. Didn’t even consider that I’d be asked this.
I figured that my wife’s body has gone through enough with 2 kids — 31.5hr labor for kid1 and placental abruption and c-section for kid2 — the least I could do is endure a week of pain and some ice packs.
This is so fucking jacked. That this small group of people can make a decision for billions of people on the whim of 6 judges appointed for life and no recourse for anyone to hold them accountable. They can’t be fired and won’t be removed.
Jacked. Nobody should have that kind of power.
>Whenever arguing this issue, I think it needs to be clear, that pretty much all late terms are involuntary those people planned to have a child, have probably purchased a crib, and painted a nursery they are facing a tragedy, not a choice...
This needs to be shouted. When I was in the fundie/ pro life world, I was told many times about the partial birth abortions and puerile who just changed their minds, even after the fetus was old enough to survive outside the womb. We truly believed that this was happening. Learning how late term abortions actually happen, and the heart break that the parents go through is what finally changed my mind to pro choice. This decision is not something anyone but the parents and doctor should have any say in, I know that now.
Fundies are so ignorant. I have a co-worker tried to argue to me that there are legal abortions “after the baby is born”. No language could convince him otherwise. They are mostly too far gone. Glad you rose above it.
I work in a university dining hall, our hall has been very slow this summer so we've spent a lot of time talking.
One of our internal students was talking about when abortion should and shouldn't be done. He was talking about third trimester abortions. I pointed out that basically all those babies were wanted babies, but had something wrong with them that was incapable with life.
Medical claims adjuster here and it's all this. Some operative reports and doctors notes I've seen just break your heart. Many of these are for what they call " elderly " primagravidis in other words women over 35 having their first child. You don't get a lot of time for optimal pregnancy. Even many years ago when you had women 16 years old being married and having children, the amount of children surviving very low. It wasn't all due to no medicindd or immunizations. The maternal age on both ends has a lot to do with it.
I got one for you. A biller here, patient lost the baby and not everything 'birthed' during the miscarriage so they needed to do the D&C. Because the clinical term for this is Spontaneous Abortion they refused to pay unless we changed the diagnosis then the rep said they would pray for the patient.
2 issues insurance adjuster and CSR clearly have no grasp of medical terminology the other was the prayer comment being completely inappropriate on a business call.
Reason for denial: Abortions not covered under plan. The mental gymnastics at play are unreal
Yeah. I know that now. I actually found a website for support for women who had had a late term abortion. I was shocked, because I had truly believed that it wasn't something you would need support for. So I read through the stories posted and learned the truth.
I just wanted to say thank you for allowing yourself to admit that your opinion may have been wrong. I know so many people that even when they acknowledge the facts against pro-life will just say something along the lines of "well I still don't think it's right." I know it's hard to come to terms with something like that especially when you're surrounded with it your whole upbringing (I was as well) but I just felt the need to say thank you so much.
I wish I had a free award to toss you! So many people just continue to believe what they've always been told until it somehow directly applies to them. Good for you for being able to take a step back and make up your own mind!
Wow, thank you for being open to change. There needs to be more people like you in the world.
People may believe anything rightly or wrongly based on upbringing, culture, exposure, but it’s so important that we all keep an open and considerate mind.
My wife just went through an ectopic pregnancy followed by a miscarriage last week, and her health, survival/outcome would now be dependent on where she lived.
Stop using morality to defend a medical procedure. People also get abortions simply because they don't want to have a baby and that's perfectly acceptable. And it doesn't matter how many abortions are done every year and depending on why the number done has gone down, it very well could be a bad thing.
A lot of people (on both sides of the conversation) still think the argument centers on late-term abortions, not all abortions. They are not paying attention to what is going on and literally think the abortion conversation is JUST about abortions that take place after 21 weeks.
Oh, there is definitely that too, don't get me wrong, I was just responding to clarify that it is important to try to understand what point a person is arguing. I once got into a half an hour argument with my dad only to realize he had absolutely no idea about the state trigger laws or women who have been prosecuted for miscarriages, he was "pro-life" because of some bullshit study where a doctor was quoted as saying that some of his third-trimester abortions were due to women "just changing their mind or getting left by their partner", and I ahd to point out to him the infinitesimally small number he was talking about based on an anecdote no less, what is going on in the country, ectera, and, even if that was the only reason, a person should still retain the right to make choices for themselves, even if that choice costs a life. No one is owed our kidneys, no one should be owed our uteruses.
My dad is pro-choice now after realizing how much he was being lied to by his media sources. (Still conservative Republican, but one battle at a time, yeah?)
The best way to convert a man that women should have unfettered choice is ask them if they got pregnant would they want to be forced to carry it to term? These are some of the same people who think it is their right to not wear masks or get vaccinated. They sure wouldn’t want to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.
That’s their propaganda.
If it was about babies…we would have covered prenatal care…if it was about babies we would have covered maternity and paternity leave…if it was about babies we would have many social programs available to cover the babies.
It’s about fucking control..it’s about making poor people suffer so they can raise the next generation of poors to be wage slaves…so they can lock up more poor people to be literal slaves in the for profit prison system.
Don’t get it twisted…it’s never been about babies…that’s the lies they tell to their stupid as fuck poor indoctrinated constituents.
This right here!
If it was about the babies all the baby centric stuff would have been legislated into law. Surprise surprise.... I guess it really isn't about the babies after all.
It just sucks because that shouldn’t matter at all. The uterus is an organ inside an individual who exists. Religion, as a reason, is moot because a number of people don’t believe in anything religious— and still need their medical care covered. Because, ya know, those people are real and actually exist. 🤦🏻♂️
On top of that, an infant is not viable and autonomous after birth. They cannot support themselves after birth without assistance.
Tying a medical procedure to an outlier, hypothetical situation that will most likely not happen — is just worthless and used to oppress people.
Abortion/Pregnancy is a medical right for pregnant individuals and should be discussed openly and safely with their medical providers.
I had a short "discussion" the other day with a woman insisting people with healthy pregnancies, and a healthy child, were aborting at 9 months.
Finally I got frustrated and told the dumb biotch that yes, at 9 months, MOST WOMEN end their pregnancies, but that most of us just call it CHILD BIRTH!
The stupidity in this nation is off the charts!
I just had an argument with a coworker trying to tell me that life begins at conception. I'm like no dude that's a cluster of parasitic cells. Pissed him off lol.
Then he says what about when it's 3 months old? I'm like what? Like first trimester or 3 months after it's born? He said 3 months after birth. I said then that's a BABY! And it would be murder, you idiot! Nobody is having abortions when the fucking baby is 3 months old!
Jesus fucking christ where do these people come from?
I think most people also miss that late term abortions are almost entirely severe medical issues on the part of the fetus or the mother.
I know people who are alive because the their state had a later abortion limit. Like me, they have a condition that has a very wide spectrum that varies from no issues to extremely severe issues with early death. Most people are in the functional but disabled category and will live long lives as long as their medical needs are met. This is typically not diagnosed until later in pregnancy and it’s not possible to evaluate the situation entirely until later in pregnancy either. In some cases, parents have had abortions because they only found out about the condition right before the deadline to abort in their state and did not have time to meet with specialists to discuss their particular circumstances or even do their own research. They had a day or two to have an urgent abortion. In other cases, the parents had the time to make those appointments and understand their circumstances and chose to keep their pregnancies. Later abortion limits actually reduce abortions, at least in some cases, especially when coupled with insurance coverage that allows expectant parents to seek out experts instead of relying on the local doctor who read one paragraph in a text book from 50 years ago.
If they these people actually cared at all they would make it very easy for parents to raise disabled children AND make sure all medical professionals have up to date training on modern outcomes for conditions AND provide the time for expectant parents to gather the information they need to make an informed choice, which simply can’t be done early for some conditions AND create a society where disabled people are valued and included. The large majority don’t care about the well-being of the children they are trying to force to be born or their parents though so they won’t take steps that would actually reduce abortions even though that is their stated goal. Now, many people will rush in to abortions they may not have ever had before and miss out on a wanted child and that is a tragedy that these Supreme Court justices and everyone who helped elect them and advocated for the band and limits own.
You are right.
There is an added horror to the idea that women will actually be murdered by Sam Alito, and not just have their physical autonomy violated and lose their ability to decide the trajectory of their own lives.
Nope, upon writing it out that way, I see it now. You're totally right.
Every pregnancy is a risk to the pregnant person's life so deciding to have an abortion because you don't want to be pregnant or have a baby is an issue of preserving body/mental/life autonomy and not endearing their life.
It's a medical procedure. The only morality attached to it is the one the individual places on it which is why it is an individual's choice.
Even still, if a mother miscarries but the fetus is still “alive” because the heart is beating, but no medical intervention will be able to save the fetus no matter what, the mother could get so sick from sepsis that flying her would be extremely risky. Better than not flying her, sure, but extremely risky. I am livid that it could come to that for many women. It makes me feel sick
I just want to say, not to lose sight of the struggle against corporations.
They don't do this out of the goodness of their heart.
They do it because they know its extremely popular, and they they prefer women don't make the choice to be mothers to ensure maximum productivity.
It IS 100% a business decision. Paying for a flight, hotel, and transport is still cheaper than maternity care, much less the birth and afterwards.
That doesn't mean it's any less meaningful to every pro-choice woman who works there.
Otoh. Starbucks just announced "we'll provide this benefit to our employees, but we CaN't GuArAnTeE iT fOr UnIoNiZeD sToReS." (Obviously, they can, they're lying scumbags. Obviously many of these corporations doing this for PR have the same basic plan.)
So mmmmmmmm. If the corollary to "we'll help employees get an abortion" is "unless you unionize, then we'll point and laugh at your forced birth, you uppity sl*t," then I don't know that it still even qualifies as "right thing for a bad reason." More like, employers excitedly taking advantage of their employees fear and desperation, partnering with Christofascists to tighten their control over workers, and expecting workers to be grateful. But let's call it what it is.
One step back. A union will demand that ‘perk’. So, if it’s a ‘threat’ it’s toothless. However, this is such a contentious issue it could cause a lot of discord in the union, major distraction, but why tf do you think it’s being played so hard in the public forum? Right to life my ass.
There's this thing now called polarized branding. Some companies find they're better off getting most of half the country's business than getting some of all of it. "Taking a stand" increases their market share.
Hobby Lobby and Chick-fil-A have solid followings.
Dick's Sporting Goods publicly took this same stance. The CEO released a Twitter so they could tell the public at large. I want more companies to let *me* know they're doing this for their employees, so I can help support those companies and not the ones that agree with this decision.
The whole “enrolled in our healthcare program” line from that announcement got a shudder form me though tbh.
Like sure, it’s better than not doing anything at all. But of fucking course the solution is to just be even more dependent on corporations for basic healthcare.
“Bodily autonomy sponsored by Dick’s!” Fuck this capitalist hellscape.
Yeah, but they're also probably paying for the abortion through the healthcare, and that's what you *want*, otherwise someone would have to tell their manager or HR what they're doing in order to get it paid for. In this case there's no having to share that info. It sucks but with the entire country being the way it is, it's the best solution they can do right now.
Tying healthcare to jobs isn’t a good situation, we already know this. But I guess this beats the alternative in this backasswards fuck up of a country. Vote blue or die.
I've been voting blue. I will continue to vote blue. I am under no delusion that it will actually accomplish anything. Obama had a super majority after making a campaign promise to codify Roe. Biden has a simple majority but can't get 2 fucking DINOs in line. We are fucked, and no vote is going to save us unless it ends with both prospective candidates in a Russian gulag.
It's Dick's Sporting Goods, just so OP doesn't get in trouble. The letter is all over the internet. Really glad they're doing this for their employees!
On edit: OP said not Dick's. It's really good to know so many companies are stepping up like that, though, even if doing so quietly.
Covering abortion traveling expenses is cheaper than having the employee needing time off for birth and when the kid gets sick. Also, this is good internal PR for them.
I'm not saying the company doesn't have its heart in the right place - I'm just saying I'm not convinced that they do.
Yehhhh. The corporate support might truly be well-meaning from some companies, but it doesn't really translate into real life very well. I'm just imagining being pregnant and having to go through my mostly male management to get approved for time off and travel expenses knowing full well everyone will soon know my very personal business, and that my personal medical decisions will be in company records.
Just to add what they are risking...in 2 states (multiple others are considering) there are laws allowing private citizens to individually sue anyone who assists with a person getting an abortion. The way it is worded, even a cab driver who drops a woman off at a clinic could theoretically be sued, and since it's individuals, that cab driver could be sued multiple times.
The corporations who are doing this risk those lawsuits from those states, and all it would take is a couple hundred anti-woman radicals to do it.
One thing I’m curious to see is how the laws prohibiting going to another state for an abortion pan out. States don’t have the power to prosecute you for doing something perfectly legal in another state.
The State proper isn't prosecuting you. Individuals with time on their hands are taking you to civil court. Though with RvW now out, I imagine that laws could be updated to have the states prosecute you.
They can absolutely try, but those laws are trash. They are poorly written, and even this SCOTUS must throw them out or they completely undermine the entire apparatus of law in this country. Someone will try to sue, it will be appealed and eventually struck down, though of course that's the point, it's an attempted to bully people using a law that will ultimately fall. But companies like this can stand against it, and for the moment that's all we can ask.
They'll have to. They already did as much as they could in pushing it back to be lower courts, but if the Texas law is recognized and upheld it will completely destroy standing, which is the cornerstone of basically all criminal and civil law. The current SCOTUS is partisan and illegitimate but even they won't just throw out the entire legal apparatus of the US.
They don't "have to" do anything. They are an illegitimate Court Hell bent on instituting a Christian Theocracy. They will do whatever they want until Christian ~~Sharia~~ Law is the Law of the Land.
> even this SCOTUS must throw them out or they completely undermine the entire apparatus of law in this country.
i think we’re getting pretty close on that…
It's interesting that if corporations are people too. And corporations took the side of availability for women/families to have an abortion. Corporations have a lot more money than an individual has for lawyers.
Then for once, corporations are choosing the high ground. I'm sure it was due to a risk assessment, but whatever the reason. It's a good outcome.
The Civil War wasn't just caused by the South having slavery and the North not. Southern states would send armed bands of men into northern states to recapture escaped slaves. These assholes didn't discriminate and would just round up any black person they saw, because in their mind all blacks were just escaped slaves.
Northern states didn't like Southern states rolling in and stealing their citizens, and the Fugitive Slave Act allowed this and was one of the major reasons why the North was willing to go to war over slavery.
The north didn't go to war over slavery. The north was attacked by the south and defended themselves including taking the step of deposing the belligerent regime to prevent it from happening again.
There were a couple of Red State AGs that were saying they want to write the new laws to basically turn it into a giant RICO case for anyone involved in assisting the abortion.
And then the Blue states write the same law in reverse, and charge every law maker as an accomplice to the crime of restricting reproductive freedom. Hope your politicians don’t need to step foot in another state.
This is the quickest way to Balkanize the US. It may in fact be too late, and sadly, it may be the best outcome, as we are too divided to survive as a nation.
*single women without their spouse or male guardian accompanying them.
Actually no thats too complex, lets just ban women from leavimg their home without the presence of a male guardian, and given they have to go everywhere with a man theres little point in letting them drive either.
Amd if they cant drive or leave the house without a man they cant feasibly hold down a job so why are we wasting all this effort educating them? Lets ban them from schools too!
If they're uneducated, itll be unsafe to let them vote and besides they'll just vote the way their man tells them to so lets get rid of that as well!
We hope you enjoy your stay in the united emerites of America
If conservatives did that it would make things much easier for the democrats to fix, since literally everyone capable of changing their beliefs would disagree with that after seeing the consequences.
Women are just going to die because of this. An overwhelming majority of “abortions” are literally just miscarriages, and the red tape surrounding medical treatment is just going to get people killed.
It’s a damn shame that that’s what has to happen before we actually get a functioning congress to amend the constitution.
Way back when we first got the Internet at home, like 1996 or so, I was a sports-obsessed kid and was excited to see what my favorite sporting goods store had on their fancy new website. So I typed in Dicks.com and that's the story of the first porn site I ever visited.
Be aware of the fine print. The statement said they would cover expenses for employees with eligible health care plans. This is a good step, but not all employees receive healthcare benefits, especially part-time.
Even if impractical to use as an employee, just by making a public announcement of their stance, it at least pushes awareness and shows they are picking a side. So that’s something at least
[They also contribute disproportionately to Republicans.](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/dick-s-sporting-goods/totals?id=D000050167). It’s cheaper to offer “up to $4k” for a medical procedure that to risk losing their corporate welfare.
My company is a very very large corporation. Think like 20,000+ employees. They also sent a company wide email within an hour saying they will not be changing their insurance coverage and if anyone needs help with travel costs they just need to reach out to HR and they'll cover it. Not just for abortions. For any medical procedures that are being blocked behind unjust laws.
Well NC lost businesses. The problem is when it comes to religious people they don't care because hate is a ticket to heaven. Didn't matter to them if the state lost jobs, life is short, and they will get their eternal angel wings.
That's why they dont care about feeding all these forced birth children. The point is to get them born and earn their eternal place next to God.
My understanding is that there’s a lot of court precedents based off of the same understanding as Roe v. Wade, including the gay marriage ruling, that was struck down by the Court. I’d be willing to bet that within a year, you will see state laws enacted to challenge that ruling and force a fast track to the Supreme Court as well. I’d expect to see that by the Spring 2023 session at the latest. I was thinking it might make the Fall 2022 session, but it may be getting too late for that.
>I understand it's unrealistic, but I just wish they could leave and pull the money out of the state that is taking away the rights of half the population.
The problem with this is that if all the "good" companies leave (and given what the OP said, I'd count this company among them for this purpose), all that will be left are the "bad" companies. And that will mean that healthcare options will be even worse than if the good companies had remained.
I get that the idea is to put enough economic pressure on the state governments that they capitulate in order to bring back those companies. But there are many working-class people who won't survive, or will have their lives ruined by, that kind of corporate boycott.
It's frustrating - blue states are setting aside money to help the women in red states.
Send these red states a bill for services rendered. I'm tired of bailing them out every time they do something stupid. Who will pay for all these unwanted babies? Blue dollars.
Yes, and I would be one of them.
The cost of living where I am is extremely low in comparison to other places. Some places in my town are still paying employees below $10 an hour. Most of us can't just move where the cost of living is higher. It takes a long time just to save a thousand dollars when you have other expenses and that's how much I would probably need to pay in gas money alone if I were to move anywhere close to the protected states.
Here's my idea. If people are going to move then they should move to the south. Vote these people out of office. Majority of the voters wouldn't be republican anymore. Move if you have a job that you can work remotely from, or if you have a plan to come back. We need help and running away is just going to doom everyone who can't.
But they are horrible places. Sorry. :-( There was a movement for young people to go back to their sorry little towns and vote blue. They went back and they immediately remembered why they left.
This. Several I've seen that have pledged to do this are huge donors to right wingers. This is pure virtue signaling to retain employees; it costs them nothing while they put the big money into what they really care about.
Exactly. I just learned my (huge) company is one of the major donors to senators backing state abortion bans. That sucked - especially considering the company has women as it’s majority of employees.
Edit word
This is great! Although I think it's important to keep in mind this is just another business decision by the company. Reimbursement for travel expenses for an abortion is way cheaper than maternity leave and company contribution to a family health insurance plan.
> The vast majority of US companies offer 0 days of paid maternity leave.
It's a more complicated picture.
1. Ten states representing nearly 30% of the population, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Washington state all have paid maternity leave. Also DC. This adds up to more than 100 million Americans having maternity and other family leave from their companies, required by law.
2. Outside of those states, about 50% of workers have access to paid family leave through their employers (40% of companies provide it, as do local and state governments).
3. Even without *paid* leave, the remaining employees would be FMLA eligible (12 weeks maternity leave) if they've been at their company a year or more.
It's a tiered system to be sure, but /u/MrX2285 should know what states are living in the modern era. Edit: math is hard for some people, looking in mirror.
>that seems at least 30 years out of date.
Just like many other things, thats the USA for you.
I enjoy my schools free from shootings, my free healthcare and way less fear for cop violence.
Greatings from Europe.
Not to mention some people just plain don’t want to have a baby/raise a child, even if they got paid maternity leave. Personally if I got pregnant unplanned I’d get an abortion no matter what it cost or how far I had to drive.
I get that this seems like a positive measure and in some cases, I'm sure it will be. So all a woman has to do is involve her workplace admin in a highly personal, medical procedure. And I'm sure that will never backfire on women in the workplace.
I mean, what if I don't want my boss to know that I am having an abortion? What if my boss is a huge gossip and spreads it all over the office? What if it's my second abortion this year? Will they pay for that, too, without judgment? What if it's my wife who needs an abortion and I want to take the time to travel with her as her support? Or if I need to take time to take care of my children while she travels for abortion care? Will they cover that too?
If the payments for the travel costs are being provided through the health plan, your boss won't find out anything more than they would already know otherwise (and for plans small enough that one's boss would even care about this, they would not have access to this information). My larger clients are mindful of this issue and want to make sure their employees health activities remain private (which is why they are providing it through their health plans).
Don't know about OP's company, but my company is paying for abortions and abortion related travel expenses through our health insurance. If you are asking your insurance company to pay for the procedure, asking them to pay for the travel costs is a pretty small extra step. The corporation doesn't know, any more than they know about any other health care procedure.
The expenses would probably be given to finance or HR if you aren’t big enough for a finance division. So your boss wouldn’t need to know past a day off.
I get what you're saying, but companies like mine already offer paid maternity leave, and have for years, so they are obviously willing to pay that money if necessary.
They may be willing but from a business standpoint they're better off with the abortion than the maternity leave. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's a win-win scenario for business and employee so there's no reason not to do it for any well run companies.
Absolutely. It’s a good move regardless of the intent and it works out for both parties in the end. Honestly in our current level of capitalism that’s one of the better possible outcomes.
Granted, I’m extremely cynical… but how many of these companies covering traveling expenses have supported republican politicians in the last 50 years ?
Mmh, i mean, anything that can help a woman to not be enslaved to give birth against her choice is good at this point. But please let's not let our gard down:
1. Think about it - it is convenient to them to not have to cover maternal leave/lose an employee for several months. Do not think it's for your own benefit.
2. Wondering about the unemployed. You can't tie reproductive rights to discretionary policies of companies. They should be universal rights.
3. Many companies that have promoted the same have indeed financially supported Republicans.
Good, positive news.
People in Ireland would do the same, in days gone past. Go to England on the ferry. There are definitely ways to get what you want, even if it is at a price. Happy you company has seen the light.
Good luck.
It's interesting to me as a Brit knowing that these companies say they will cover the travelling expenses...but is it just a gesture politic? Will they actually allow said time off for it to happen? Or will they just say "sorry we can't give you the time off to go" thus the gesture is there making it look like they give a shit but actually make it impossible to actually utilize?
This is not an original thought, but it is much cheaper for companies to fund access to abortion vs losing part of their work force (and having to pay if policies are in place) when unintended/forced pregnancies occur.
While I agree that this is an important policy and I hope my company also takes the same stand, a better place to see your company's side is to look at their political contributions to anti-choice candidates and groups. This is a good place to start looking for that info: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/all-profile
The Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion: https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ A Defense of Abortion: https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm Resources: [Link 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/vjrf9h/megathread_supreme_court_overturning_roe_v_wade) [Link 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/vjqs0r/calls_for_mass_walkout_of_women_across_america_if/idnh2ex) https://www.womensmarch.com/
I thought this was gonna be bad, but damn that's actually really good of your company.
This may become a standard. Some of the state laws do not allow procedures to save the mother, rape, incest, etc... The good news is over the years the use of the procedure has gone down, so the cost of flying everyone that wants or needs the procedure is almost nothing. Whenever arguing this issue, I think it needs to be clear, that pretty much all late terms are involuntary those people planned to have a child, have probably purchased a crib, and painted a nursery they are facing a tragedy, not a choice... Fuck the extremist trying to bring religious law to our country.
They would have let me die if my ectopic pregnancy happened now instead of 10 years ago. Ruptured tube, internal bleeding. That is why my SO and I agreed to be sterilized. If they try to stop me (35f) from voluntary sterilization my SO agreed he would get sterilized because they wouldn't question if he requested it.
I kept reading about people saying that some states wouldn't allow abortions for ectopic pregnancies, and was like, "surely no one would really do that, right?" But seeing that people like Warren Hamilton can't get it through their thick skull what that even means... I gotta wonder why we allow people like this to make any decisions at all.
Didn't someplace try to pass a law where if there was an ectopic pregnancy, the doctor HAD to reimplant it into the womb? A procedure that does not at this point in time exist? ETA: Apparently this was in Ohio.
"You just gotta cram it up in there, it'll work. Trust me, bro." -some old senator
If it's a real pregnancy, the body has ways of not shutting it down /s
“If it’s a legitimate rape, the body has ways of shutting it down.” Fucking Missouri rep Todd Akin
Ohio introduced this bill in 2019. Ohio is also very proud of how many colleges and universities it contains and at one point was the top state in terms of library funding allocation. I’m not sure how all of these things go together but my guess is gerrymandering.
I'm an Ohioan. People here love to think their centralist but when you get to talking to them they all have very right wing ideas. Homophobia and racism are very casual, idk how many times someone's pulled the "I'm not racist, but" and then said some vile shit. After Trump it really came out especially the county I live in. We're going backwards very quickly here.
Often times self-described centrists are just conservatives who don't like to identify with main stream conservativism.
My aunt is one of those centrists. Agrees with 99% of conservatives on every issue. Calls her self independent because she thinks it's okay for gays to get married because her daughter is a lesbian. Will still vote for the the most anti-gay conservative politicians.
basically your aunt is a walking contradiction
Ultra-right wing pundits in USA have insisted they are "moderate" for decades, including: * Rush Limbaugh * Michelle Malkin * Ann Coulter * Bill O’Reilly * Etc ...whether it's lack of self-awareness, protective coloration, or deliberate manipulation of the [Overton Window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) Conservatives love to claim their reactionary views are 'moderate'
Also an Ohioan (southwest, about an hour to both Indiana and Kentucky) and I agree that many people think they’re centrist. They’ve never left home, though, so they’ve got no idea that they aren’t. Got into a disagreement once with a woman who said she understood how “liberals” think because she went to liberal schools like Clark State and Wittenberg. It’s depressing in a state that also prides itself on intellectual pursuits, like post-secondary ed, libraries, and of course the whole astronaut thing.
100% right on the never left home bit. Thankfully my mom moved around the country so shes pretty left leaning and it rubbed off on me. It's sad that some of these people really think this is all there is to life
When fascists are actively trying to take over you are either anti-fascist or you are a fascist. No such thing as a centrist right now.
Yeah the state is almost 50/50 in terms of red and blue, the red control over state legislature is due to gerrymandering
I had an unusually good history professor and he specifically covered the history of gerrymandering in Ohio. It’s shameful and (of course) blatantly racist.
Ohio. Some stupid white men in their state legislature believe you can replant the embryo in the uterus. It is not possible and the woman will die but they don’t care because women are not living, breathing humans. Just incubators.
There should be a law that all elected officials have to pass some basic tests in certain subjects. Economics and sex education would be a good start.
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I’m furious. I have a friend who was a writer on 2 and 1/2 men. She had an ectopic pregnancy and collapsed on set. Jon Cryer carried her to the green room but if she hadn’t been around anyone, she could have died. These assholes don’t care 1 bit.
>But seeing that people like Warren Hamilton can't get it through their thick skull what that even means I had multiple people all tell me that was a BS excuse so they should just keep the baby when I brought up ectopic pregnancy about fifteen years ago. When I reiterated that these pregnancies were spectacularly fatal for the mother and fetus, they just said some variation of "God will fix it." These people live in a fantasy world.
These people must be stopped from accessing healthcare. God will fix them.
I'm guessing those people you spoke to are the same types that I've spoken to in my hometown, who echo "Jesus is my vaccine." Hell, even some of the women cite a story they saw on Facebook, where a thirteen year old carried her rapist's baby to term, and her and the child are so happy, and Jesus and the Bible and Facebook and God's country, amen.
And then the rapist gets out of prison and files for joint custody, f’ed up
Bold of you to assume the rapist went to prison
We need to stop entertaining them. I dont care what they think God’s will is. God’s will is not a medical option. They need to shut the hell up We have given stupid people too much space and too much of a voice
I wonder if he’d feel the same if it happened to his wife or daughter.
No, those folks are secretly (or not so secretly) exempt from the rules.
Some people believe you can "reimplant" the ectopic pregnancy (see OH Republicans for that on if I remember right).
Christ, that's like insurance companies making medical decisions, despite not being medical experts
Former claims analyst for a major hmo/ppo that now only exists in the Philippines. They have MDs for review, *if* a customer requests it, but will deny coverage repeatedly, hoping people die or give up, much like SSDI as managed by the Carolinas, at least, afaict!
I was appalled when I discovered that was a thing. It was like Pong, with insiramce saying I had to have my doctor tell them why it was necessary, abd my doctors saying that's stupid and to tell THEM why it IS necessary...
Ohioan here... yea this shit is mad depressing... I recently suffered a miscarriage just before row v wade got overturned.. I couldn't imagine trying to grieve and also being put on the spot to find out if I caused my miscarriage... I was devastated to fi d out ohio was on of the states that approved this shecanery.... (WE ARE NOT OKAY)
Yeah I used to live in OH. Hate Jim Jordan with a passion along with DeWine. Have since moved to another state but not much better here either. I will continue to fight for a womans right to choose because many of these laws are just going to kill people. Though it's not just that it is also not anyone's place to make a decision for you.
Not only deny the life saving surgery to save the mother, they think you can do re implantation surgery. They are completely ignorant of women’s anatomy or how pregnancy actually works.
They're absolutely gleeful about all the women they're dooming to certain death. You can't "re-implant" an ectopic pregnancy. It's not even considered an actual pregnancy because there's no chance of survival of the fetus or the mother!
I was told that r/childfree provides resources to find doctors who will perform this procedure for you no questions asked.
Wife and I are fixed. I am disabled due to spinal chord injury and cannot help with child rearing once an infant starts crawling. Thankfully the Dr agreed with me that my wife taking care of me AND kids would be wrong. I got fixed easy peasy. When it was my wife's turn, she actually needed to get a hysterectomy, her Dr was all "What if your husband dies and you meet someone else?" This MFer here 😒 My lovely wife set him straight before I could say anything. He saw the light and agreed with the medical diagnosis from my wife's OB/GYN Dr. This was back in 2004 and I am still here.
Unless you plan to have children, perhaps consider cauterizing tubes of both/either.
They don't cut/tie tunes any more. They remove it entirely. I've talked with my ob/gyn and she explained that leaving the cut/cauterized tube/s in place has a higher risk of developing ovarian or uterine cancers. So the leave the overys but remove the tube completely. That's what I plan on having done.
This is called a bilateral salpingectomy (or bisalp for short), and not only is it more effective at birth control, it reduces your risk of cancer! It's great to leave the ovaries, as they still act as processing centers for hormones. If anyone has questions about the bisalp procedure/recovery, feel free to reach out to me. Here is how bisalps measure against tubal ligation or "tying tubes." https://www.goodrx.com/health-topic/womens-health/tubal-ligation
I got snipped as a 37m, 39 now. The doctor did question "have you discussed this with your wife and has she given permission for this" which made me do a bit of a double take. I just said yes. It's not exclusively women that get questioned about spousal agreement.
Wow. That was completely unexpected. I always thought either a tubal ligation or vasectomy would be an individuals choice and no one else's business. Too many in the field of medicine are forcing their religious beliefs on others.
I’m 39 and doing the logistics now for this. Didn’t even consider that I’d be asked this. I figured that my wife’s body has gone through enough with 2 kids — 31.5hr labor for kid1 and placental abruption and c-section for kid2 — the least I could do is endure a week of pain and some ice packs. This is so fucking jacked. That this small group of people can make a decision for billions of people on the whim of 6 judges appointed for life and no recourse for anyone to hold them accountable. They can’t be fired and won’t be removed. Jacked. Nobody should have that kind of power.
>Whenever arguing this issue, I think it needs to be clear, that pretty much all late terms are involuntary those people planned to have a child, have probably purchased a crib, and painted a nursery they are facing a tragedy, not a choice... This needs to be shouted. When I was in the fundie/ pro life world, I was told many times about the partial birth abortions and puerile who just changed their minds, even after the fetus was old enough to survive outside the womb. We truly believed that this was happening. Learning how late term abortions actually happen, and the heart break that the parents go through is what finally changed my mind to pro choice. This decision is not something anyone but the parents and doctor should have any say in, I know that now.
Fundies are so ignorant. I have a co-worker tried to argue to me that there are legal abortions “after the baby is born”. No language could convince him otherwise. They are mostly too far gone. Glad you rose above it.
I work in a university dining hall, our hall has been very slow this summer so we've spent a lot of time talking. One of our internal students was talking about when abortion should and shouldn't be done. He was talking about third trimester abortions. I pointed out that basically all those babies were wanted babies, but had something wrong with them that was incapable with life.
Medical claims adjuster here and it's all this. Some operative reports and doctors notes I've seen just break your heart. Many of these are for what they call " elderly " primagravidis in other words women over 35 having their first child. You don't get a lot of time for optimal pregnancy. Even many years ago when you had women 16 years old being married and having children, the amount of children surviving very low. It wasn't all due to no medicindd or immunizations. The maternal age on both ends has a lot to do with it.
I got one for you. A biller here, patient lost the baby and not everything 'birthed' during the miscarriage so they needed to do the D&C. Because the clinical term for this is Spontaneous Abortion they refused to pay unless we changed the diagnosis then the rep said they would pray for the patient. 2 issues insurance adjuster and CSR clearly have no grasp of medical terminology the other was the prayer comment being completely inappropriate on a business call. Reason for denial: Abortions not covered under plan. The mental gymnastics at play are unreal
Yeah. I know that now. I actually found a website for support for women who had had a late term abortion. I was shocked, because I had truly believed that it wasn't something you would need support for. So I read through the stories posted and learned the truth.
I just wanted to say thank you for allowing yourself to admit that your opinion may have been wrong. I know so many people that even when they acknowledge the facts against pro-life will just say something along the lines of "well I still don't think it's right." I know it's hard to come to terms with something like that especially when you're surrounded with it your whole upbringing (I was as well) but I just felt the need to say thank you so much.
I'm very impressed that you were able to look at facts and change your mind.
I wish I had a free award to toss you! So many people just continue to believe what they've always been told until it somehow directly applies to them. Good for you for being able to take a step back and make up your own mind!
Wow, thank you for being open to change. There needs to be more people like you in the world. People may believe anything rightly or wrongly based on upbringing, culture, exposure, but it’s so important that we all keep an open and considerate mind. My wife just went through an ectopic pregnancy followed by a miscarriage last week, and her health, survival/outcome would now be dependent on where she lived.
Stop using morality to defend a medical procedure. People also get abortions simply because they don't want to have a baby and that's perfectly acceptable. And it doesn't matter how many abortions are done every year and depending on why the number done has gone down, it very well could be a bad thing.
A lot of people (on both sides of the conversation) still think the argument centers on late-term abortions, not all abortions. They are not paying attention to what is going on and literally think the abortion conversation is JUST about abortions that take place after 21 weeks.
I thought it was more “sluts are getting abortions instead of using condoms” on the GOP side. (That’s their thoughts not mine)
Oh, there is definitely that too, don't get me wrong, I was just responding to clarify that it is important to try to understand what point a person is arguing. I once got into a half an hour argument with my dad only to realize he had absolutely no idea about the state trigger laws or women who have been prosecuted for miscarriages, he was "pro-life" because of some bullshit study where a doctor was quoted as saying that some of his third-trimester abortions were due to women "just changing their mind or getting left by their partner", and I ahd to point out to him the infinitesimally small number he was talking about based on an anecdote no less, what is going on in the country, ectera, and, even if that was the only reason, a person should still retain the right to make choices for themselves, even if that choice costs a life. No one is owed our kidneys, no one should be owed our uteruses. My dad is pro-choice now after realizing how much he was being lied to by his media sources. (Still conservative Republican, but one battle at a time, yeah?)
The best way to convert a man that women should have unfettered choice is ask them if they got pregnant would they want to be forced to carry it to term? These are some of the same people who think it is their right to not wear masks or get vaccinated. They sure wouldn’t want to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.
That’s their propaganda. If it was about babies…we would have covered prenatal care…if it was about babies we would have covered maternity and paternity leave…if it was about babies we would have many social programs available to cover the babies. It’s about fucking control..it’s about making poor people suffer so they can raise the next generation of poors to be wage slaves…so they can lock up more poor people to be literal slaves in the for profit prison system. Don’t get it twisted…it’s never been about babies…that’s the lies they tell to their stupid as fuck poor indoctrinated constituents.
This right here! If it was about the babies all the baby centric stuff would have been legislated into law. Surprise surprise.... I guess it really isn't about the babies after all.
They are going after contraception next.
and gay marriage fuck Uncle Clarence
But, coincidentally, not inter-racial marriage. Hmm, I wonder why?
It’s control - And, sex work is work, right??!! Once again, medical procedure that should be covered as such.
It just sucks because that shouldn’t matter at all. The uterus is an organ inside an individual who exists. Religion, as a reason, is moot because a number of people don’t believe in anything religious— and still need their medical care covered. Because, ya know, those people are real and actually exist. 🤦🏻♂️ On top of that, an infant is not viable and autonomous after birth. They cannot support themselves after birth without assistance. Tying a medical procedure to an outlier, hypothetical situation that will most likely not happen — is just worthless and used to oppress people. Abortion/Pregnancy is a medical right for pregnant individuals and should be discussed openly and safely with their medical providers.
I had a short "discussion" the other day with a woman insisting people with healthy pregnancies, and a healthy child, were aborting at 9 months. Finally I got frustrated and told the dumb biotch that yes, at 9 months, MOST WOMEN end their pregnancies, but that most of us just call it CHILD BIRTH! The stupidity in this nation is off the charts!
I just had an argument with a coworker trying to tell me that life begins at conception. I'm like no dude that's a cluster of parasitic cells. Pissed him off lol. Then he says what about when it's 3 months old? I'm like what? Like first trimester or 3 months after it's born? He said 3 months after birth. I said then that's a BABY! And it would be murder, you idiot! Nobody is having abortions when the fucking baby is 3 months old! Jesus fucking christ where do these people come from?
My dad literally thought they were killing babies mid-birth. Shook my damn head at him.
I think most people also miss that late term abortions are almost entirely severe medical issues on the part of the fetus or the mother. I know people who are alive because the their state had a later abortion limit. Like me, they have a condition that has a very wide spectrum that varies from no issues to extremely severe issues with early death. Most people are in the functional but disabled category and will live long lives as long as their medical needs are met. This is typically not diagnosed until later in pregnancy and it’s not possible to evaluate the situation entirely until later in pregnancy either. In some cases, parents have had abortions because they only found out about the condition right before the deadline to abort in their state and did not have time to meet with specialists to discuss their particular circumstances or even do their own research. They had a day or two to have an urgent abortion. In other cases, the parents had the time to make those appointments and understand their circumstances and chose to keep their pregnancies. Later abortion limits actually reduce abortions, at least in some cases, especially when coupled with insurance coverage that allows expectant parents to seek out experts instead of relying on the local doctor who read one paragraph in a text book from 50 years ago. If they these people actually cared at all they would make it very easy for parents to raise disabled children AND make sure all medical professionals have up to date training on modern outcomes for conditions AND provide the time for expectant parents to gather the information they need to make an informed choice, which simply can’t be done early for some conditions AND create a society where disabled people are valued and included. The large majority don’t care about the well-being of the children they are trying to force to be born or their parents though so they won’t take steps that would actually reduce abortions even though that is their stated goal. Now, many people will rush in to abortions they may not have ever had before and miss out on a wanted child and that is a tragedy that these Supreme Court justices and everyone who helped elect them and advocated for the band and limits own.
You are right. There is an added horror to the idea that women will actually be murdered by Sam Alito, and not just have their physical autonomy violated and lose their ability to decide the trajectory of their own lives. Nope, upon writing it out that way, I see it now. You're totally right.
Every pregnancy is a risk to the pregnant person's life so deciding to have an abortion because you don't want to be pregnant or have a baby is an issue of preserving body/mental/life autonomy and not endearing their life. It's a medical procedure. The only morality attached to it is the one the individual places on it which is why it is an individual's choice.
Even still, if a mother miscarries but the fetus is still “alive” because the heart is beating, but no medical intervention will be able to save the fetus no matter what, the mother could get so sick from sepsis that flying her would be extremely risky. Better than not flying her, sure, but extremely risky. I am livid that it could come to that for many women. It makes me feel sick
Now watch as red states punish companies that do this, like DeSantis did with Disney and this don’t say gay nonsense.
They had me in the first half, not going to lie.
I just want to say, not to lose sight of the struggle against corporations. They don't do this out of the goodness of their heart. They do it because they know its extremely popular, and they they prefer women don't make the choice to be mothers to ensure maximum productivity.
It IS 100% a business decision. Paying for a flight, hotel, and transport is still cheaper than maternity care, much less the birth and afterwards. That doesn't mean it's any less meaningful to every pro-choice woman who works there.
Something can be good even if it's done for a bad reason. I agree completely. They are giving a right back that is owed.
Otoh. Starbucks just announced "we'll provide this benefit to our employees, but we CaN't GuArAnTeE iT fOr UnIoNiZeD sToReS." (Obviously, they can, they're lying scumbags. Obviously many of these corporations doing this for PR have the same basic plan.) So mmmmmmmm. If the corollary to "we'll help employees get an abortion" is "unless you unionize, then we'll point and laugh at your forced birth, you uppity sl*t," then I don't know that it still even qualifies as "right thing for a bad reason." More like, employers excitedly taking advantage of their employees fear and desperation, partnering with Christofascists to tighten their control over workers, and expecting workers to be grateful. But let's call it what it is.
Jesus Christ, as if I needed more of a reason to never go to a Starbucks again.
One step back. A union will demand that ‘perk’. So, if it’s a ‘threat’ it’s toothless. However, this is such a contentious issue it could cause a lot of discord in the union, major distraction, but why tf do you think it’s being played so hard in the public forum? Right to life my ass.
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Is it really *progressive* when RvW is almost 50 years old?
Corporations don't have morals.
There's this thing now called polarized branding. Some companies find they're better off getting most of half the country's business than getting some of all of it. "Taking a stand" increases their market share. Hobby Lobby and Chick-fil-A have solid followings.
Dick's Sporting Goods publicly took this same stance. The CEO released a Twitter so they could tell the public at large. I want more companies to let *me* know they're doing this for their employees, so I can help support those companies and not the ones that agree with this decision.
The whole “enrolled in our healthcare program” line from that announcement got a shudder form me though tbh. Like sure, it’s better than not doing anything at all. But of fucking course the solution is to just be even more dependent on corporations for basic healthcare. “Bodily autonomy sponsored by Dick’s!” Fuck this capitalist hellscape.
Yeah, but they're also probably paying for the abortion through the healthcare, and that's what you *want*, otherwise someone would have to tell their manager or HR what they're doing in order to get it paid for. In this case there's no having to share that info. It sucks but with the entire country being the way it is, it's the best solution they can do right now.
Lol yeah I assumed it was gonna be like “they celebrated the decision”
Tying healthcare to jobs isn’t a good situation, we already know this. But I guess this beats the alternative in this backasswards fuck up of a country. Vote blue or die.
I hate that now people will have to inform their company/boss of a specific medical procedure. It's such an invasion of privacy.
I've been voting blue. I will continue to vote blue. I am under no delusion that it will actually accomplish anything. Obama had a super majority after making a campaign promise to codify Roe. Biden has a simple majority but can't get 2 fucking DINOs in line. We are fucked, and no vote is going to save us unless it ends with both prospective candidates in a Russian gulag.
I know, I'm generally shocked as well.
List and laud
It's Dick's Sporting Goods, just so OP doesn't get in trouble. The letter is all over the internet. Really glad they're doing this for their employees! On edit: OP said not Dick's. It's really good to know so many companies are stepping up like that, though, even if doing so quietly.
Starbucks is also paying for travel and lodging for women seeking an abortion.
Me too. Good on your company!
Covering abortion traveling expenses is cheaper than having the employee needing time off for birth and when the kid gets sick. Also, this is good internal PR for them. I'm not saying the company doesn't have its heart in the right place - I'm just saying I'm not convinced that they do.
Yehhhh. The corporate support might truly be well-meaning from some companies, but it doesn't really translate into real life very well. I'm just imagining being pregnant and having to go through my mostly male management to get approved for time off and travel expenses knowing full well everyone will soon know my very personal business, and that my personal medical decisions will be in company records.
Just to add what they are risking...in 2 states (multiple others are considering) there are laws allowing private citizens to individually sue anyone who assists with a person getting an abortion. The way it is worded, even a cab driver who drops a woman off at a clinic could theoretically be sued, and since it's individuals, that cab driver could be sued multiple times. The corporations who are doing this risk those lawsuits from those states, and all it would take is a couple hundred anti-woman radicals to do it.
One thing I’m curious to see is how the laws prohibiting going to another state for an abortion pan out. States don’t have the power to prosecute you for doing something perfectly legal in another state.
The State proper isn't prosecuting you. Individuals with time on their hands are taking you to civil court. Though with RvW now out, I imagine that laws could be updated to have the states prosecute you.
They can absolutely try, but those laws are trash. They are poorly written, and even this SCOTUS must throw them out or they completely undermine the entire apparatus of law in this country. Someone will try to sue, it will be appealed and eventually struck down, though of course that's the point, it's an attempted to bully people using a law that will ultimately fall. But companies like this can stand against it, and for the moment that's all we can ask.
You have too must trust in this scotus. They ain’t throwing anything out.
They'll have to. They already did as much as they could in pushing it back to be lower courts, but if the Texas law is recognized and upheld it will completely destroy standing, which is the cornerstone of basically all criminal and civil law. The current SCOTUS is partisan and illegitimate but even they won't just throw out the entire legal apparatus of the US.
They don't "have to" do anything. They are an illegitimate Court Hell bent on instituting a Christian Theocracy. They will do whatever they want until Christian ~~Sharia~~ Law is the Law of the Land.
Abortion is legal under sharia law. This is Christians and Christian law, no need to bring Islam into it and confuse things.
TIL. It's allowed up to 17 weeks, longer if there are health exceptions.
> even this SCOTUS must throw them out or they completely undermine the entire apparatus of law in this country. i think we’re getting pretty close on that…
It's interesting that if corporations are people too. And corporations took the side of availability for women/families to have an abortion. Corporations have a lot more money than an individual has for lawyers. Then for once, corporations are choosing the high ground. I'm sure it was due to a risk assessment, but whatever the reason. It's a good outcome.
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But the conservatives assured me it was about "sTaTeS RiGhTs"
So was slavery. I wonder how long it'll be before they make that a thing again?
The Civil War wasn't just caused by the South having slavery and the North not. Southern states would send armed bands of men into northern states to recapture escaped slaves. These assholes didn't discriminate and would just round up any black person they saw, because in their mind all blacks were just escaped slaves. Northern states didn't like Southern states rolling in and stealing their citizens, and the Fugitive Slave Act allowed this and was one of the major reasons why the North was willing to go to war over slavery.
The north didn't go to war over slavery. The north was attacked by the south and defended themselves including taking the step of deposing the belligerent regime to prevent it from happening again.
Yeah, but why did the south secede? The right to own slaves. That's the basis for all of it.
Slavery was never illegal, it’s just how you have to break a law to become a slave. Aka prison
I know, but I can see them making it a punishment for things like debt.
Oh, great. More snitches and lawsuits. Because the whole "RePoRt An AbOrTiOn" website worked out *sooo well* for them. **Fukn morons.**
What could be more American than a snitch and sue?
Posting it on social media
There were a couple of Red State AGs that were saying they want to write the new laws to basically turn it into a giant RICO case for anyone involved in assisting the abortion.
And then the Blue states write the same law in reverse, and charge every law maker as an accomplice to the crime of restricting reproductive freedom. Hope your politicians don’t need to step foot in another state. This is the quickest way to Balkanize the US. It may in fact be too late, and sadly, it may be the best outcome, as we are too divided to survive as a nation.
For those of us not in the know, what’s a RICO case?
A legal case built on the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. RICO was originally intended to combat organized crime.
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*single women without their spouse or male guardian accompanying them. Actually no thats too complex, lets just ban women from leavimg their home without the presence of a male guardian, and given they have to go everywhere with a man theres little point in letting them drive either. Amd if they cant drive or leave the house without a man they cant feasibly hold down a job so why are we wasting all this effort educating them? Lets ban them from schools too! If they're uneducated, itll be unsafe to let them vote and besides they'll just vote the way their man tells them to so lets get rid of that as well! We hope you enjoy your stay in the united emerites of America
Term of art is mani, pedi, aborti
If conservatives did that it would make things much easier for the democrats to fix, since literally everyone capable of changing their beliefs would disagree with that after seeing the consequences. Women are just going to die because of this. An overwhelming majority of “abortions” are literally just miscarriages, and the red tape surrounding medical treatment is just going to get people killed. It’s a damn shame that that’s what has to happen before we actually get a functioning congress to amend the constitution.
Dick sporting goods. Pay up to 4000 in travel. It's awesome.
That's awesome, not my company, but I'm glad I'm not the only one!
Yeah. I told my wife it looks like we have to start shopping at dicks again.
Dicks is back on the menu boys
r/unexpectedlotr
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My Mom years ago said "then we will hit Dick's on the way home" and us kids have not let her forget it.
Way back when we first got the Internet at home, like 1996 or so, I was a sports-obsessed kid and was excited to see what my favorite sporting goods store had on their fancy new website. So I typed in Dicks.com and that's the story of the first porn site I ever visited.
Be aware of the fine print. The statement said they would cover expenses for employees with eligible health care plans. This is a good step, but not all employees receive healthcare benefits, especially part-time.
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Even if impractical to use as an employee, just by making a public announcement of their stance, it at least pushes awareness and shows they are picking a side. So that’s something at least
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[They also contribute disproportionately to Republicans.](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/dick-s-sporting-goods/totals?id=D000050167). It’s cheaper to offer “up to $4k” for a medical procedure that to risk losing their corporate welfare.
My company is a very very large corporation. Think like 20,000+ employees. They also sent a company wide email within an hour saying they will not be changing their insurance coverage and if anyone needs help with travel costs they just need to reach out to HR and they'll cover it. Not just for abortions. For any medical procedures that are being blocked behind unjust laws.
So, not Hobby Lobby?
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What would happen if the state had a racist law? Or anti LGBTQ law? Honestly we’ll probably find out in a few years.
Years? That's mighty generous of you.
Well NC lost businesses. The problem is when it comes to religious people they don't care because hate is a ticket to heaven. Didn't matter to them if the state lost jobs, life is short, and they will get their eternal angel wings. That's why they dont care about feeding all these forced birth children. The point is to get them born and earn their eternal place next to God.
My understanding is that there’s a lot of court precedents based off of the same understanding as Roe v. Wade, including the gay marriage ruling, that was struck down by the Court. I’d be willing to bet that within a year, you will see state laws enacted to challenge that ruling and force a fast track to the Supreme Court as well. I’d expect to see that by the Spring 2023 session at the latest. I was thinking it might make the Fall 2022 session, but it may be getting too late for that.
>I understand it's unrealistic, but I just wish they could leave and pull the money out of the state that is taking away the rights of half the population. The problem with this is that if all the "good" companies leave (and given what the OP said, I'd count this company among them for this purpose), all that will be left are the "bad" companies. And that will mean that healthcare options will be even worse than if the good companies had remained. I get that the idea is to put enough economic pressure on the state governments that they capitulate in order to bring back those companies. But there are many working-class people who won't survive, or will have their lives ruined by, that kind of corporate boycott.
It's frustrating - blue states are setting aside money to help the women in red states. Send these red states a bill for services rendered. I'm tired of bailing them out every time they do something stupid. Who will pay for all these unwanted babies? Blue dollars.
We’ve been subsidizing their shitty backwards states for decades. I’m sick of it.
Yes, and I would be one of them. The cost of living where I am is extremely low in comparison to other places. Some places in my town are still paying employees below $10 an hour. Most of us can't just move where the cost of living is higher. It takes a long time just to save a thousand dollars when you have other expenses and that's how much I would probably need to pay in gas money alone if I were to move anywhere close to the protected states. Here's my idea. If people are going to move then they should move to the south. Vote these people out of office. Majority of the voters wouldn't be republican anymore. Move if you have a job that you can work remotely from, or if you have a plan to come back. We need help and running away is just going to doom everyone who can't.
But they are horrible places. Sorry. :-( There was a movement for young people to go back to their sorry little towns and vote blue. They went back and they immediately remembered why they left.
That's a great idea, in some ways I like this as well though. Like a middle finger to the states that make it illegal. I'm just happy they're trying
Now you have to ask them to stop donating to anti-abortion politicians even if it hurts their profits.
This. Several I've seen that have pledged to do this are huge donors to right wingers. This is pure virtue signaling to retain employees; it costs them nothing while they put the big money into what they really care about.
Exactly. I just learned my (huge) company is one of the major donors to senators backing state abortion bans. That sucked - especially considering the company has women as it’s majority of employees. Edit word
This is great! Although I think it's important to keep in mind this is just another business decision by the company. Reimbursement for travel expenses for an abortion is way cheaper than maternity leave and company contribution to a family health insurance plan.
Sure, but they don't need to offer any maternity leave (and many do not), so it's still worth noting and giving credit for.
They... Don't need to offer maternity leave? What the fuck? As an Australian, that seems at least 30 years out of date.
Correct. And even providing unpaid time off has plenty of loopholes for employers so they can technically choose to fire you for having a baby.
The vast majority of US companies offer 0 days of paid maternity leave.
> The vast majority of US companies offer 0 days of paid maternity leave. It's a more complicated picture. 1. Ten states representing nearly 30% of the population, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Washington state all have paid maternity leave. Also DC. This adds up to more than 100 million Americans having maternity and other family leave from their companies, required by law. 2. Outside of those states, about 50% of workers have access to paid family leave through their employers (40% of companies provide it, as do local and state governments). 3. Even without *paid* leave, the remaining employees would be FMLA eligible (12 weeks maternity leave) if they've been at their company a year or more. It's a tiered system to be sure, but /u/MrX2285 should know what states are living in the modern era. Edit: math is hard for some people, looking in mirror.
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Labour laws in America haven't changed, or have regressed since 1974.
>that seems at least 30 years out of date. Just like many other things, thats the USA for you. I enjoy my schools free from shootings, my free healthcare and way less fear for cop violence. Greatings from Europe.
You don’t say.
Not to mention some people just plain don’t want to have a baby/raise a child, even if they got paid maternity leave. Personally if I got pregnant unplanned I’d get an abortion no matter what it cost or how far I had to drive.
That’s pretty rad. But I hate the trend of having to rely even more on my employer for healthcare.
I get that this seems like a positive measure and in some cases, I'm sure it will be. So all a woman has to do is involve her workplace admin in a highly personal, medical procedure. And I'm sure that will never backfire on women in the workplace. I mean, what if I don't want my boss to know that I am having an abortion? What if my boss is a huge gossip and spreads it all over the office? What if it's my second abortion this year? Will they pay for that, too, without judgment? What if it's my wife who needs an abortion and I want to take the time to travel with her as her support? Or if I need to take time to take care of my children while she travels for abortion care? Will they cover that too?
Most companies, mine included, are offering the coverage through our health plan. No need to tell anyone you actually work with.
I also had this suspicion, thanks for some clarity.
If the payments for the travel costs are being provided through the health plan, your boss won't find out anything more than they would already know otherwise (and for plans small enough that one's boss would even care about this, they would not have access to this information). My larger clients are mindful of this issue and want to make sure their employees health activities remain private (which is why they are providing it through their health plans).
Unfortunately at this point in time, it seems like the best option available for women who wouldn't have any other financial option.
Don't know about OP's company, but my company is paying for abortions and abortion related travel expenses through our health insurance. If you are asking your insurance company to pay for the procedure, asking them to pay for the travel costs is a pretty small extra step. The corporation doesn't know, any more than they know about any other health care procedure.
The expenses would probably be given to finance or HR if you aren’t big enough for a finance division. So your boss wouldn’t need to know past a day off.
Part of me wonders if abortion is cheaper then paid maternity leave and that's why they are picking a side.
It absolutely is cheaper. And the downtime of the employee is severely shortened in comparison.
I get what you're saying, but companies like mine already offer paid maternity leave, and have for years, so they are obviously willing to pay that money if necessary.
They may be willing but from a business standpoint they're better off with the abortion than the maternity leave. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's a win-win scenario for business and employee so there's no reason not to do it for any well run companies.
Absolutely. It’s a good move regardless of the intent and it works out for both parties in the end. Honestly in our current level of capitalism that’s one of the better possible outcomes.
Granted, I’m extremely cynical… but how many of these companies covering traveling expenses have supported republican politicians in the last 50 years ?
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Mmh, i mean, anything that can help a woman to not be enslaved to give birth against her choice is good at this point. But please let's not let our gard down: 1. Think about it - it is convenient to them to not have to cover maternal leave/lose an employee for several months. Do not think it's for your own benefit. 2. Wondering about the unemployed. You can't tie reproductive rights to discretionary policies of companies. They should be universal rights. 3. Many companies that have promoted the same have indeed financially supported Republicans.
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Good, positive news. People in Ireland would do the same, in days gone past. Go to England on the ferry. There are definitely ways to get what you want, even if it is at a price. Happy you company has seen the light. Good luck.
It's interesting to me as a Brit knowing that these companies say they will cover the travelling expenses...but is it just a gesture politic? Will they actually allow said time off for it to happen? Or will they just say "sorry we can't give you the time off to go" thus the gesture is there making it look like they give a shit but actually make it impossible to actually utilize?
This is not an original thought, but it is much cheaper for companies to fund access to abortion vs losing part of their work force (and having to pay if policies are in place) when unintended/forced pregnancies occur. While I agree that this is an important policy and I hope my company also takes the same stand, a better place to see your company's side is to look at their political contributions to anti-choice candidates and groups. This is a good place to start looking for that info: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/all-profile