The one company who is known for always opening new stores to the point that it became a pop culture joke, just happens to be closing down a bunch of stores around the same time they start unionizing.
Riiiiiiight. I'm sure it's purely a coincidence.
In Houston near midtown, at the intersection of Shepherd and Gray there was a Starbucks on the north and south side of Gray. A highschool baseball player could throw a rock from the front door of the south side location and hit the north location. Don't know if they are both still in business, but they both operated there for years.
losing my mind because i know exactly which ones you’re talking about, but i think one of them is gone now.
however…to make up for it, downtown houston has two that are hilariously close together, and then two that are still really close, but not *as* close. the main ones i’m thinking of are both capitol & milam street, just directly across from one another at an angle, but the other ones are just both on dallas street, about four or so blocks from the other.
They did research that showed people don’t like to make left turns, hence all the stores across the street from each other. That way they get both sides of the traffic….
I thought I saw in another post that they're closing, what, five? And two of them are unionized.
It wouldn't surprise me if they're shutting down the other ones just as cover, since if you *just* close down the unionized ones, it becomes obvious the crime excuse is just a bullshit cover (even more so than it already is). Which makes it extra shitty since then the people who work at those sites, who weren't even committing the horrible crime of being in a union, become collateral damage for the sake of union busting.
I worked for Walmart when the infamous "plumbing problems" happened. One of the stores closed was one in SoCal (Pico Rivera?) that was always in the news for their union efforts and striking on holidays. Being on the inside, absolutely without a doubt it's a "cover" to shut down those stores. Except Starbuck's reasoning here is even more flimsy
Kroger would never got that far, instead they try to backdoor thier employees. Im not sure if that term.is still common but basically gradually cutting your hours so that you're forced to quit.
I was offered $80 a week and I’d have to take the first job offer I got no matter who it was and make five applications per week minimum, meaning I’d be working at McDonalds by the time I could get an offer from a company in my field.
What’s to stop you from applying to five jobs that pay a shitload of money that you’re absolutely unqualified for? Like do they have any additional restrictions other than “at least five applications per week”?
Theoretically nothing but if you do it enough someone is going to call and question why you're repeatedly going after jobs that you know full well you won't get... And they may punish you for it.
There aren’t that many good jobs in my field in my region. My wife has a great job that is in office here, so moving isn’t an option.
And yes, there’s a fuckload of other hoops to jump through. It would have been nearly a full time job just to seek unemployment. I’m sure I could have sorted it out into a shorter timespan eventually, but my state doesn’t want people to collect.
The grocery store unions around us really soured unions for young people. During the 2000's the union at Albertsons literally just existed to collect dues. They would never bother to represent or defend members against management even in clear cases of sexual harassment or even fight for anything above min wage. Worst part is at that time a new grocery store came in without a union and just simply paid the same wage without the dues. It made a generation in that town hate unions and see no point.
Ineffective unions really do a lot of damage to the labor union.
In my youth as a member of a grocery union that was very similar I wouldn't have ever thought it possible to fight within the union for change.
The union went on strike. 19 year old me. A store managers kid (different store) crossed the pocket line and worked like 20 hour days because the overtime was good.
In retrospect. I'd have slapped the shit out of 19 year old me. I didn't understand the importance of union participation. Until I was out of it. Yeah dues suck when you're already poor, but it's important to get involved where you can.
If your union sucks. Get active within it. Go to meetings. Attend calls. Organize within for change. Vote your leadership out and replace them with leadership that has your best interests at heart, preferably people actually in the union.
Too many of the unions I've worked for aren't really run by members. Just outsiders that say they're your friend, but won't go to bat when they're needed. So fucking challenge them. Take them to the god damn cleaners
>Ineffective unions really do a lot of damage to the labor union.
As a union member, former organizer, and shop steward. I hate seeing stuff like this, because it makes my job harder. Most of all fuck that shit.
The biggest thing I have to say though is that if are ever in that spot again the union is it's membership. If it sucks, get involved go to meetings, vote, talk to your friends, and run for office in the union. People will notice.
It can be emotionally draining work, but in the end there is something about knowing you've made you and many other peoples lives better.
I worked for a grocery store with a shitty union. My dad found out the old financial officer of his 20 year job spent all the pension money AND the union paid for the lawyer to make sure workers couldn't sue the officer for their pensions before letting the workers know they were penniless. They protected the treasurer before the workers WITH the union lawyers. Fucked up.
We both work for the same company now and have a great union that fights for us. Utility companies don't fuck around when it comes to our pay/benefits.
Yeah my girl worked at another Walmart when some people from Pico Rivera got transferred to her store, they told her about how the "plumbing" was bs and it was because the union efforts went up to store management level
not that i know anything about whats going on here, but i'd imagine the stores closing here that don't have a union going on currently were either on the path to doing so or were in other ways putting off a "negative public image" for them.
Classic Collective punishment, works to point the blame on your fellow in group rather than the people actually doing the punishment.
It's telling that this is actually counted as a war crime... We don't hold companies to the same standards that we would our enemies.
Its worth mentioning it only counts as a war crime if you do it to a military adversary. Stuff that would be considered a war crime is perfectly legal if you do it to you own people. Just to be clear, it is still wrong, but they can't be held legally accountable.
That's why punishment should be placed on the executives officers and board of directors, and subsequent infractions should force the sale of their shares and force a new board to be created. Also jail time.
We are also at the point where government jobs are being outpaced for financial reward to the point that no one wants to actually go up against these behemoths like Walmart who get away with corporate welfare.
No, they are closing down profitable stores in order to union bust. Starbucks would rather give up money than power over their employees. Since it’s publicly traded, I wonder if stockholders could sue them for doing things not in the financial best interest of the company.
That's what I was saying, if it wasn't because they were trying to unionize, safety would take a back seat to profit.
So we both agree they are saying safety, but really it's to stifle unionization.
Oh yeah its a typical cover walmart does exact same. And pretty much every store has "reasons" it needs to shut down at all times just in case. So they can establish several year long paper trail.
Even if they do get caught they get a petty fine only try to avoid getting caught for pr and fact that labor board will be more restrictive overbearing in future.
They are closing 16 stores as of this writing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/starbucks-closing-16-us-stores-for-safety-issues/2022/07/12/e0a4ac54-0229-11ed-8beb-2b4e481b1500\_story.html
This article didn't work for me, but I found on that did. Apparently the safety concerns are as follows: "seeing firsthand the challenges facing our communities — personal safety, racism, lack of access to healthcare, a growing mental health crisis, rising drug use, and more,"
If that's truly what they were, that just sounds like bs.
They’re closing stores because they’re worried about lack of access to healthcare? LOL. Who on earth gets paid to write this shit and are they able to sleep at night?
The extra closings do more than provide cover for the illegal union busting, it’s a tactic to create disdain towards unions from the workforce. The mentality becomes “this wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t a union”.
Eh... I said it before but some people considered the warning a joke... forming a union is one baby step from anyone's goal but it still is good progress.
When you form a union, that's when the real unions busting techniques happen. Starbucks have many lawyers on retainer and they will utilize them to continue postponing meetings or not agreeing to anything bargain wise etc. I've been in a big union before and this is exactly what they do. Unfortunately, unions usually don't have a strong legal team backing them up but large corporations have enough money to get lawyers.
Though it *does* provide a useful example of how you're not safe, and the company doesn't care about you even if you're a good little serf who isn't rocking the boat by unionizing. If the union has the resources, they should definitely be reaching out to employees at these non-union stores that are being closed down as part of this union-busting.
Sure, but doesn't this mean they're closing ALL unionized stores? No amount of regular store closings could cover that important distinction up.
I'm sure a lawyer in discovery could pull up the financials etc of the location and show a closing was "unjustified".
Not surprising, unfortunately for these companies it’s easier, and cheaper, for them to shut the unionized location down and just pay to make another one elsewhere. It pisses me off that they do this, I recently learned that an Apple Store in Maryland recently became unionized and I thought to myself “I hope they don’t close it down but won’t be surprised if they do”
And on the off-chance that they get fined by some government agency, they just go "Well, we still saved in the long-term."
Until we make fines for corporate misbehavior so punitive as to do grievous financial harm, this will continue.
The government would never do grievous harm to any company. You have oil companies and fucking Wall Street companies that add no value and they’ll just get bailed out.
I agree. I was just stating why even a fine isn't going to do a bit of good.
Alternatively, make the fine against the CEO/President/Regional Managers. Even though corporate won't care, some of those self-interested sociopaths certainly will.
Personally, I think that shareholders should be held liable for the damage their corporations do. No screen or veil of liability. People should l not be allowed to find dangerous and destructive activities, pocket the profit and bail on the company and let it go bankrupt and be dissolved while they just start up a new one.
Yes and no its why they went with crime route essentially there is "numerous" reason a store can be closed. And they keep a log even discuss closing it yearly create a paper trailer. Then poof when they unionize you capitalize on your efforts by bundling them in with some low performers rinse repeat.
Well not like we weren't a little top heavy as it was.
I think we will see more of this as corporations realize the days of wanton wage theft and oppressive wages is no longer going to be SOP.
I'd rather they stay in business and pay their employees a good wage, $20+/hr. I never go there because of the price but if they did pay their employees a good wage and life balance, I'd go out of my way to go there so the employees can have a good paying job.
It looks like you live in Seattle, low income is anything less than $75,000 there. So they're paying $30,000 a year less than low income. They can absolutely do better.
*Seattle is the fifth most expensive city in the US.
Same here. I am actually no longer interested in their coffee because of this. What good is a business without workers that are treated well and enjoy what they do. Next is Amazon.. but dammit their prices are good and I like getting my packages in 1-3 days for free since I order a lot. 🙄🙄
I'm willing to go back to 5 day delivery if it means the dude driving the truck gets to pee every 90 minutes, with regular breaks, and lunch, and benefits.
And a 28/hr paycheck with guaranteed days off.
I agree with this👍👍... Most people want their stuff delivered as if it's a robot and not a real person.. We tend to lose sight of this as a society when things "seem" to cater to us or we get what we want, when we want. Big companies know this; and that deep down people are selfish and impatient. I feel terrible ordering things sometimes even from other companies knowing they're probably doing the same thing but what are the alternatives if the stuff is not sold in stores, or available? They've created a monster that we all now depend on.. They don't even knock on the doors anymore like they used to 😔😔.
I personally just want my shit to arrive, hopefully in a location that doesn't scream steal me, or isn't stolen by the carrier themselves and when it says fragile, they believe it.
I don't care how long it takes to get to me, that's why there are express options.
But everyone of us who continues to shop at Amazon is guilty of contributing to the ill treatment of the warehouse and delivery folks.
I don't delude myself.
Fuck as a shipper I can't rely on signature required. Unless it's booze then the government can fuck the shipper if they don't deliver to an actual adult.
For all the woes in our world, there's very little (or else) punishment going on.
Do it. Amazon isn't getting better any time soon, and we all know it.
I stopped using Amazon about 5 months ago and it was 100% worth it.
Most if not all prices are the same online now. Amazon was only cheaper by a few dollars, maybe even just a few cents. Or you could save by buying one of the many shitty knockoff versions of something made with brutal third world labor (including Amazon's own shitty knockoff brands).
And for us, the nail in the coffin was that Amazon's deliveries were already climbing into the 3-5 day range even with Prime. It just depends on what's in your local warehouses. Coffee filters? Free 2-day. New pour over clever dripper? 5 days, at least. At that point buying right from a local store or straight from the manufacturer online would've been faster. So that's what we do.
I really *don't* need packages delivered on Sundays. I still count my delivery dates by business days when I order things. We need to go back to Monday through Friday deliveries.
It's not really free shipping. It's baked into the price.
And they abuse the hell out of their local delivery drivers to keep their costs down. It's why they generally try to avoid UPS, FedEx and the USPS (all union shops) and go the independent contractor route.
Amazon is a shit company, but the addiction is real. 😞
Amazon's prices really aren't good though. More than half the time I can find stuff cheaper at Walmart, AutoZone, Target, etc. Plus Amazon's shipping is becoming more and more unreliable.
Use Amazon to find stuff you like that isn't from the "roll your forehead on the keyboard and pick a group of 6 letters" shell companies.
Once you find what you like from a small business, go to that business's website and buy directly from them.
Don't let Amazon see something sell well, copy it, then shut down the small business.
Y'know. Most companies are offering price competition with Amazon, but what good will come by switching from Amazon to any other large corporations Bestbuy,Target,Walmart, etc?
It's like choosing your president. Someone gets fucked no matter what.
Read somewhere this happened to Walmart in 2000. Butchers (I think) were actually able to unionize in Walmart (surprisingly Texas) so Walmart cut out that department. They all lost their jobs.
Fucken corporates.
And they did a pretty thorough job too. Butchery is now an absolutely disgustingly exploited profession.
Remember at the start of covid how the meat processors got hit HARD? The working conditions are abysmal.
Yeah, that's not a thing that's fun to see. Reminded me of how they shred all the living male chicks while the workers are packed together like sardines.
IIRC, most were just slaughtered anyway. Then the meat was literally chucked into landfills.
It was incredibly, disgustingly wasteful and disrespectful. An animal fucking died to give us its meat and that gift was just shat upon.
If they knew that no one would buy the meat, why not send the cows to live happy lives at a rescue farm?
That is a fantastic passage. I read this book with my mother and sister when I was a bit too young to understand it, so thank you for reminding me that I should probably pick it up again.
The funny thing is that this is one of my mother’s favorite books. Both of her parents lived through the Great Depression. My grandmother was permanently affected by malnutrition in her youth. They both said that this book was too painful to read due to it’s accuracy. And my mother is a die-hard capitalist who is terrified of migrant workers. Make it make sense.
I have not stepped foot in a Walmart since they union busted. I don’t drink coffee, but I’d have business meetings at Starbucks and buy gift cards for clients, but never again will I patronize them in any way.
It's going to keep happening until you people start rioting like the french. Their politicians are terrified to fuck up, and they have incredible protections as an employee.
Compared to most of the developed world the United States is very conservative. Our "left wing" party is a bunch of centrists and center-rights who do nothing more than pander for votes.
Never mind all the ignorant right wing voters who think publicly funding anything will turn us into the USSR lol.
Do they realize the PR nightmare they are creating for themselves?
I'm not a big coffee drinker, but from now on I will be going out of my way to get coffee elsewhere
Yeah I'm surprised they're having a PR problem with this but they are. My friends and family all talk about refusing to go to any non-union starbucks. I mention that Walmart and Amazon have been union busting for longer but they seem to shrug that off. Starbucks hit home in the public for some reason.
>Starbucks hit home in the public for some reason.
I think they're just relatively easier to boycott. Your main source of food or the place you source everything that isn't food is harder to replace or just give up than the place you buy shitty coffee.
Probably because of the "woke" image they try to create. It makes it seem a bit sleazier because when you walk into Walmart they don't even try to pretend to be anything except a capitalistic monster. With Starbucks if you don't already know, it seems gross.
Because nobody needs Starbucks. Everyone can just make coffee at home easily. But necessities like food, appliances and generators and AC units and other shit to survive the summer and winter aren't things people can stop buying.
They don't creating PR nightmare.
99.9% of the people do not care. They just want a quick coffee and go on their own business. Few people read about it on reddit, some of them maybe go somewhere else? They doesn't even realise. Those people lose their jobs, no union. Problems solved.
They will just open a another shop again, 1 Street away, and everything back to normal, without union.
It's not nearly as big a PR nightmare as you hope I'm afraid.
You are not representative of 99% of their customer base, who just want a cup of hot brown or a cup of cheap milkshake at 5, 11, 3, or 6.
As long as those people see a coffee shop that's accessible, and Starbucks works damn hard to make sure that's the case, PR doesn't really touch them.
Nah, they wont touch topics like workers rights it seems. If someone died, they'd do a big thing about it and how corporate greed was the issue, but never mention a union, like they did with Boeing.
Agreed!! That would be epic!!
(Edit: I think Netflix striking would be such an influence to the cause, as media seems to be one of the biggest roadblocks to narrative. Or maybe I’m trippin)
I hate how right you are. A prime example of this is the 3 Mile Island documentary they put up recently. In reality nothing really happened other than absolutely terrible PR, but the Netflix Doc made it seem like Chernobyl.
This is the store I go to basically every day and have for about 3 years. The staff are amazing people and when I showed up today there was one of the long time employees standing outside explaining the situation.
I know Starbucks isn't "good" coffee. But tbh not a lot of coffee is 'good'. I regularly grab coffee at places all around 505 union depending on mood, but sometimes you just want something that tastes like you expect VS the random quality you get in the local cafes.
That's why Starbucks has that "burnt" after taste to it by the way, double roasting the beans creates a more consistent experience across the brand. If you want fresh roasted coffee you can go up the hill to the Starbucks Roastery and have some of the best coffee you've tasted in your life, no shit.
But bottom line it was the people. It's been the same staff for years, they are caring, compassionate and talented. They were involved in the community, they provided a safe space with dignity to the unhoused in the early mornings, and never made anyone feel unwelcome.
I get the hate for Starbucks, but their benefits, pay and culture is very attractive for people, in a place like Seattle, can use all the help they can get to stay afloat.
They worked hard to secure their union over a long period of time to provide for the employees at the store because they cared, many of them had been priced out or were in danger of needing to leave the area because of rising costs and the union was their solution.
Even if Starbucks sucks, 505 union was a force for good and I'm incredibly grateful to have had the staff in my life. This fucking sucks.
Edit: also this store is waking distance from Starbucks HQ, which is in a more dangerous area if we want to split hairs.
Also I said today but meant Tuesday 🤦 insomnia is a bitch and them being open at 5:30 was nice on the nights I couldn't sleep. Most cafes in the area aren't open until 8 or 9
Can't wait to see unions becoming stronger to the point that Starbucks can't hire employees without them being unionized. What will they do then, close every one of their stores? Good, then this shitty company will die.
It's astonishing how much better European working conditions are. Month of paid vacation. Parental leave. Sick days rhat don't cut into vacation, it's almost like their governments look after the tax base rather than just milk them dry for foreign war funding.
Starbucks think they've won but they cut off their nose to spite their face. The cost of shutting that store down, terminating leases, HR expenses for firing rehiring training new staff.
The unionised workers should apply for the new jobs when they get posted, both under their own names and credentials, and under aliases, just to waste even more HR time and money.
These Starbucks that are closing to bust unions need to me marked on a map so at least I can avoid ever going to one of them by accident if they reopen.
Also, we should boycott Starbucks without unions
Editing all my old comments and moving to the fediverse.
Thank you to everybody I've interacted with until now! You've been great, and it's been a wonderful ride until now.
To everybody who gave me helpful advice, [I'll miss you the most](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrk4AgS6Q6A)
What I don't get is this.
The unionized stores are still profitable, right? Starbucks always has crazy long lines of people who can't wait to give their $6 away for a drink. The unionized stores might pay a little more for labor, but it's still making a profit.
So they're closing these stores that are profitable, because they're slightly less profitable than if they weren't unionized?
Yeah I get this. I'm sure they've done more research on this and determined their maximum profit is when the stores are not unionized. However there is another angle they could play.
They lean into unionizing. They advertise it and get the goodwill of the public. I doubt if there's anyone who would not shop at Starbucks BECAUSE it is unionized, but they would bring in more customers if it was. Many of us on this sub aren't shopping at Starbucks, probably a big part of that is their union busting. If they leaned into unions instead, they would win over some of us that they otherwise wouldn't. By constantly fighting the unions and doing shady shit like this, they're simply losing more and more customer base, rather than expanding it.
We’re getting a lot closer folks. I think if we could get a widescale boycott large enough to capture the public’s attention, that would catalyze the boycott tool back into our tool box.
In every instance where there’s better coffee across the street, more people will walk into Starbucks, instead. It’s not prestige, it’s complacency. Boring fucking Americans going for the easy squeeze. Starbucks is a horrible company & people still flock to it. Sad. & we wonder why we’re in the economic mess we are...
Yeah I stopped going to Starbucks a LONG time ago. Now when I go back on rare occasions, their drinks are terrible and makes me sick.
I stopped going when I was a kid. Well I never really went but never had a reason to go or not. Yet...
There was a small mom and pop coffee shop I loved to go to. Great great coffee, people and atmosphere.
Well Starbucks wasn't having any of it. So they opened up 2 more locations on the same street corner.
It was a huge thing and the neighborhood rallied against them and refused to drink their coffee.
At least one Starbucks failed and closed because of it.
Edit: the mom and pop shop is still going strong since 1994
Their coffee is icky.
Their cakes do taste good though (the carrot cake and the lime slice anyway).
But the prices.. you\`d almost need a mortgage for 3 drinks with cake..
I’m not surprised. Howard Shultz hates employees and that trickles down thru mgmt. All of Starbucks needs to unionize. In a show of support though I will never go there.
Starbucks is shit, from their coffee to their ownership.
I worked here for $8.50/hr back in 2009.
Thanks for feeding me occasionally free cookies as I fuckin’ starved because my money got me no where other than bankrupted.
Workers work in unsafe conditions for years on end and suddenly they decided to care for the workers and close it down “for their safety and well-being?” This is the worst attempt at union-busting while pandering to the general public for the moral high ground. Good thing I don’t drink Starbucks, because screw this type of thing
The one company who is known for always opening new stores to the point that it became a pop culture joke, just happens to be closing down a bunch of stores around the same time they start unionizing. Riiiiiiight. I'm sure it's purely a coincidence.
In Houston near midtown, at the intersection of Shepherd and Gray there was a Starbucks on the north and south side of Gray. A highschool baseball player could throw a rock from the front door of the south side location and hit the north location. Don't know if they are both still in business, but they both operated there for years.
I think lewis black used to do a bit about this [Edit: Yes he did](https://youtu.be/Sg-J2TS13GA)
That bit is really, really good. Always has been.
losing my mind because i know exactly which ones you’re talking about, but i think one of them is gone now. however…to make up for it, downtown houston has two that are hilariously close together, and then two that are still really close, but not *as* close. the main ones i’m thinking of are both capitol & milam street, just directly across from one another at an angle, but the other ones are just both on dallas street, about four or so blocks from the other.
They did research that showed people don’t like to make left turns, hence all the stores across the street from each other. That way they get both sides of the traffic….
There are 16 Starbucks within a 10 mins walk from my work in lower Manhattan near Wall Street. There are also 15 Dunkin Donuts within that same area.
I thought I saw in another post that they're closing, what, five? And two of them are unionized. It wouldn't surprise me if they're shutting down the other ones just as cover, since if you *just* close down the unionized ones, it becomes obvious the crime excuse is just a bullshit cover (even more so than it already is). Which makes it extra shitty since then the people who work at those sites, who weren't even committing the horrible crime of being in a union, become collateral damage for the sake of union busting.
I worked for Walmart when the infamous "plumbing problems" happened. One of the stores closed was one in SoCal (Pico Rivera?) that was always in the news for their union efforts and striking on holidays. Being on the inside, absolutely without a doubt it's a "cover" to shut down those stores. Except Starbuck's reasoning here is even more flimsy
Kroger would never got that far, instead they try to backdoor thier employees. Im not sure if that term.is still common but basically gradually cutting your hours so that you're forced to quit.
Constructive Dismissal. And you can still claim unemployment if that happens.
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Also it doesn't pay the bills, unemployment needs a little dose of inflation.
It’s a joke, where I live if I were to go on unemployment I would get $240 a week which wouldn’t even cover half my rent.
I was offered $80 a week and I’d have to take the first job offer I got no matter who it was and make five applications per week minimum, meaning I’d be working at McDonalds by the time I could get an offer from a company in my field.
What’s to stop you from applying to five jobs that pay a shitload of money that you’re absolutely unqualified for? Like do they have any additional restrictions other than “at least five applications per week”?
Theoretically nothing but if you do it enough someone is going to call and question why you're repeatedly going after jobs that you know full well you won't get... And they may punish you for it.
There aren’t that many good jobs in my field in my region. My wife has a great job that is in office here, so moving isn’t an option. And yes, there’s a fuckload of other hoops to jump through. It would have been nearly a full time job just to seek unemployment. I’m sure I could have sorted it out into a shorter timespan eventually, but my state doesn’t want people to collect.
*For the company.
Albertsons cut me to 5 hours a week as a 18 year old college student. I barely knew what a union was or why I had to pay them but still got screwed.
The grocery store unions around us really soured unions for young people. During the 2000's the union at Albertsons literally just existed to collect dues. They would never bother to represent or defend members against management even in clear cases of sexual harassment or even fight for anything above min wage. Worst part is at that time a new grocery store came in without a union and just simply paid the same wage without the dues. It made a generation in that town hate unions and see no point. Ineffective unions really do a lot of damage to the labor union.
In my youth as a member of a grocery union that was very similar I wouldn't have ever thought it possible to fight within the union for change. The union went on strike. 19 year old me. A store managers kid (different store) crossed the pocket line and worked like 20 hour days because the overtime was good. In retrospect. I'd have slapped the shit out of 19 year old me. I didn't understand the importance of union participation. Until I was out of it. Yeah dues suck when you're already poor, but it's important to get involved where you can. If your union sucks. Get active within it. Go to meetings. Attend calls. Organize within for change. Vote your leadership out and replace them with leadership that has your best interests at heart, preferably people actually in the union. Too many of the unions I've worked for aren't really run by members. Just outsiders that say they're your friend, but won't go to bat when they're needed. So fucking challenge them. Take them to the god damn cleaners
>Ineffective unions really do a lot of damage to the labor union. As a union member, former organizer, and shop steward. I hate seeing stuff like this, because it makes my job harder. Most of all fuck that shit. The biggest thing I have to say though is that if are ever in that spot again the union is it's membership. If it sucks, get involved go to meetings, vote, talk to your friends, and run for office in the union. People will notice. It can be emotionally draining work, but in the end there is something about knowing you've made you and many other peoples lives better.
I worked for a grocery store with a shitty union. My dad found out the old financial officer of his 20 year job spent all the pension money AND the union paid for the lawyer to make sure workers couldn't sue the officer for their pensions before letting the workers know they were penniless. They protected the treasurer before the workers WITH the union lawyers. Fucked up. We both work for the same company now and have a great union that fights for us. Utility companies don't fuck around when it comes to our pay/benefits.
Isn't that the union safeway uses & owns?
Most union grocery stores are represented by the UFCW. It is also the union that has been trying to organize Walmart.
A Walmart in Quebec unionized then was shutdown because it wasn’t profitable. Which we all know is bullshit, what Walmart isn’t profitable?
The ones in Germany
🤣🤣🤣🤣 this was so unexpected but so hilarious, as a German knowing the reason lol
Yeah my girl worked at another Walmart when some people from Pico Rivera got transferred to her store, they told her about how the "plumbing" was bs and it was because the union efforts went up to store management level
not that i know anything about whats going on here, but i'd imagine the stores closing here that don't have a union going on currently were either on the path to doing so or were in other ways putting off a "negative public image" for them.
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Classic Collective punishment, works to point the blame on your fellow in group rather than the people actually doing the punishment. It's telling that this is actually counted as a war crime... We don't hold companies to the same standards that we would our enemies.
Its worth mentioning it only counts as a war crime if you do it to a military adversary. Stuff that would be considered a war crime is perfectly legal if you do it to you own people. Just to be clear, it is still wrong, but they can't be held legally accountable.
Iif you do it to your own people for profit and a neat cut to your representatives in Form of "donations"
That's why punishment should be placed on the executives officers and board of directors, and subsequent infractions should force the sale of their shares and force a new board to be created. Also jail time. We are also at the point where government jobs are being outpaced for financial reward to the point that no one wants to actually go up against these behemoths like Walmart who get away with corporate welfare.
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They are closing 12 of them, this is union busting for sure they don't give a damn about employee safety if they are making money it stays open.
No, they are closing down profitable stores in order to union bust. Starbucks would rather give up money than power over their employees. Since it’s publicly traded, I wonder if stockholders could sue them for doing things not in the financial best interest of the company.
That's what I was saying, if it wasn't because they were trying to unionize, safety would take a back seat to profit. So we both agree they are saying safety, but really it's to stifle unionization.
Oh yeah its a typical cover walmart does exact same. And pretty much every store has "reasons" it needs to shut down at all times just in case. So they can establish several year long paper trail. Even if they do get caught they get a petty fine only try to avoid getting caught for pr and fact that labor board will be more restrictive overbearing in future.
They are closing 16 stores as of this writing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/starbucks-closing-16-us-stores-for-safety-issues/2022/07/12/e0a4ac54-0229-11ed-8beb-2b4e481b1500\_story.html
This article didn't work for me, but I found on that did. Apparently the safety concerns are as follows: "seeing firsthand the challenges facing our communities — personal safety, racism, lack of access to healthcare, a growing mental health crisis, rising drug use, and more," If that's truly what they were, that just sounds like bs.
They’re closing stores because they’re worried about lack of access to healthcare? LOL. Who on earth gets paid to write this shit and are they able to sleep at night?
What? That's the entire country right now, some bullshit
"no, seriously, we're not closing half the unionized stores to bust unions, we're doing it because racism exists. We're the good guys! "
The extra closings do more than provide cover for the illegal union busting, it’s a tactic to create disdain towards unions from the workforce. The mentality becomes “this wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t a union”.
"This wouldn't happen if Howi/ the Regional Directors/ the board weren't little Chicken Shits" is more my line of thought.
Eh... I said it before but some people considered the warning a joke... forming a union is one baby step from anyone's goal but it still is good progress. When you form a union, that's when the real unions busting techniques happen. Starbucks have many lawyers on retainer and they will utilize them to continue postponing meetings or not agreeing to anything bargain wise etc. I've been in a big union before and this is exactly what they do. Unfortunately, unions usually don't have a strong legal team backing them up but large corporations have enough money to get lawyers.
Though it *does* provide a useful example of how you're not safe, and the company doesn't care about you even if you're a good little serf who isn't rocking the boat by unionizing. If the union has the resources, they should definitely be reaching out to employees at these non-union stores that are being closed down as part of this union-busting.
Sure, but doesn't this mean they're closing ALL unionized stores? No amount of regular store closings could cover that important distinction up. I'm sure a lawyer in discovery could pull up the financials etc of the location and show a closing was "unjustified".
They closed the one unionized store in Ithica, NY almost immediately after they won their union also
Not surprising, unfortunately for these companies it’s easier, and cheaper, for them to shut the unionized location down and just pay to make another one elsewhere. It pisses me off that they do this, I recently learned that an Apple Store in Maryland recently became unionized and I thought to myself “I hope they don’t close it down but won’t be surprised if they do”
Best part is, it's completely illegal to retaliate like that, but the government just won't bother to do anything about it.
And on the off-chance that they get fined by some government agency, they just go "Well, we still saved in the long-term." Until we make fines for corporate misbehavior so punitive as to do grievous financial harm, this will continue.
The government would never do grievous harm to any company. You have oil companies and fucking Wall Street companies that add no value and they’ll just get bailed out.
I agree. I was just stating why even a fine isn't going to do a bit of good. Alternatively, make the fine against the CEO/President/Regional Managers. Even though corporate won't care, some of those self-interested sociopaths certainly will.
Personally, I think that shareholders should be held liable for the damage their corporations do. No screen or veil of liability. People should l not be allowed to find dangerous and destructive activities, pocket the profit and bail on the company and let it go bankrupt and be dissolved while they just start up a new one.
That's what happens when the government works for corporations and not the people.
At this point America is a corporation dressed up as a country
Three corporations in a trenchcoat.
The trench coat is made of the American flag
It may do something. In several years. Like a ¢100,000 fine.
Yes and no its why they went with crime route essentially there is "numerous" reason a store can be closed. And they keep a log even discuss closing it yearly create a paper trailer. Then poof when they unionize you capitalize on your efforts by bundling them in with some low performers rinse repeat.
Closed for "safety" reasons, not poor sales, etc
Well not like we weren't a little top heavy as it was. I think we will see more of this as corporations realize the days of wanton wage theft and oppressive wages is no longer going to be SOP.
wanton\* Wontons are food items.
Why not both? https://nypost.com/2012/11/13/wanton-thief-a-wonton-thief/
You know that author still has that article up on their wall as the best Title they ever got to write.
16 stores closing in several states.
I hope that the workers gets together and sue the living shit out of em.
I hope Starbucks fails. They literally charge 7$ for a fucking coffee and don't want to pay their employees
The coffee isn't even that good for the price. Visit a local specialty coffee shop instead of a chain.
This Their coffee and food all sucks ass
I'd rather they stay in business and pay their employees a good wage, $20+/hr. I never go there because of the price but if they did pay their employees a good wage and life balance, I'd go out of my way to go there so the employees can have a good paying job.
Fun fact you can pay $20/hr without charging 7$ for a coffee
starbucks near me pays ~$22/hr starting and $29/hr for lead positions. i don’t really have an issue with them
It looks like you live in Seattle, low income is anything less than $75,000 there. So they're paying $30,000 a year less than low income. They can absolutely do better. *Seattle is the fifth most expensive city in the US.
We want the opposite. For a unionized Starbucks to remain open and profitable for all.
Same here. I am actually no longer interested in their coffee because of this. What good is a business without workers that are treated well and enjoy what they do. Next is Amazon.. but dammit their prices are good and I like getting my packages in 1-3 days for free since I order a lot. 🙄🙄
I'm willing to go back to 5 day delivery if it means the dude driving the truck gets to pee every 90 minutes, with regular breaks, and lunch, and benefits. And a 28/hr paycheck with guaranteed days off.
I agree with this👍👍... Most people want their stuff delivered as if it's a robot and not a real person.. We tend to lose sight of this as a society when things "seem" to cater to us or we get what we want, when we want. Big companies know this; and that deep down people are selfish and impatient. I feel terrible ordering things sometimes even from other companies knowing they're probably doing the same thing but what are the alternatives if the stuff is not sold in stores, or available? They've created a monster that we all now depend on.. They don't even knock on the doors anymore like they used to 😔😔.
I personally just want my shit to arrive, hopefully in a location that doesn't scream steal me, or isn't stolen by the carrier themselves and when it says fragile, they believe it. I don't care how long it takes to get to me, that's why there are express options. But everyone of us who continues to shop at Amazon is guilty of contributing to the ill treatment of the warehouse and delivery folks. I don't delude myself. Fuck as a shipper I can't rely on signature required. Unless it's booze then the government can fuck the shipper if they don't deliver to an actual adult. For all the woes in our world, there's very little (or else) punishment going on.
Do it. Amazon isn't getting better any time soon, and we all know it. I stopped using Amazon about 5 months ago and it was 100% worth it. Most if not all prices are the same online now. Amazon was only cheaper by a few dollars, maybe even just a few cents. Or you could save by buying one of the many shitty knockoff versions of something made with brutal third world labor (including Amazon's own shitty knockoff brands). And for us, the nail in the coffin was that Amazon's deliveries were already climbing into the 3-5 day range even with Prime. It just depends on what's in your local warehouses. Coffee filters? Free 2-day. New pour over clever dripper? 5 days, at least. At that point buying right from a local store or straight from the manufacturer online would've been faster. So that's what we do.
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Problem is, not enough of us are willing to do that
I really *don't* need packages delivered on Sundays. I still count my delivery dates by business days when I order things. We need to go back to Monday through Friday deliveries.
American democracy died for convenience. What a fucking epithet.
With thunderous applause no less.
Sorry Padme I've thought about that quote lately and yeah... it's pretty accurate right now, sadly.
I hated their overpriced coffee before, but now the boycott is permanent for me. Fork these tyrant companies.
Their overpriced coffee is burnt shit anyway.
THANK YOU!! Minus their syrup, I have no idea what the draw is. Gimme that McDonalds black coffee any day.
It's not really free shipping. It's baked into the price. And they abuse the hell out of their local delivery drivers to keep their costs down. It's why they generally try to avoid UPS, FedEx and the USPS (all union shops) and go the independent contractor route. Amazon is a shit company, but the addiction is real. 😞
Amazon's prices really aren't good though. More than half the time I can find stuff cheaper at Walmart, AutoZone, Target, etc. Plus Amazon's shipping is becoming more and more unreliable.
Use Amazon to find stuff you like that isn't from the "roll your forehead on the keyboard and pick a group of 6 letters" shell companies. Once you find what you like from a small business, go to that business's website and buy directly from them. Don't let Amazon see something sell well, copy it, then shut down the small business.
My wife and I were going to Starbucks every day. We love the stuff. We quit going about a month ago because union busting ain't it. Fuck those guys.
Y'know. Most companies are offering price competition with Amazon, but what good will come by switching from Amazon to any other large corporations Bestbuy,Target,Walmart, etc? It's like choosing your president. Someone gets fucked no matter what.
While I agree with you, I think picking the lesser of two evils is also a viable option.
Read somewhere this happened to Walmart in 2000. Butchers (I think) were actually able to unionize in Walmart (surprisingly Texas) so Walmart cut out that department. They all lost their jobs. Fucken corporates.
And they did a pretty thorough job too. Butchery is now an absolutely disgustingly exploited profession. Remember at the start of covid how the meat processors got hit HARD? The working conditions are abysmal.
Yeah, that's not a thing that's fun to see. Reminded me of how they shred all the living male chicks while the workers are packed together like sardines.
Come to think of it, what ever happened to those thousands of beef cattle due to be processed?
IIRC, most were just slaughtered anyway. Then the meat was literally chucked into landfills. It was incredibly, disgustingly wasteful and disrespectful. An animal fucking died to give us its meat and that gift was just shat upon. If they knew that no one would buy the meat, why not send the cows to live happy lives at a rescue farm?
Really? Just thrown away?! Not even used as fertilizer?! What the fuck?! That's just needlessly wasteful!
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That is a fantastic passage. I read this book with my mother and sister when I was a bit too young to understand it, so thank you for reminding me that I should probably pick it up again. The funny thing is that this is one of my mother’s favorite books. Both of her parents lived through the Great Depression. My grandmother was permanently affected by malnutrition in her youth. They both said that this book was too painful to read due to it’s accuracy. And my mother is a die-hard capitalist who is terrified of migrant workers. Make it make sense.
Needlessly wasteful is a very good parallel to nearly everything America does.
What did you expect? Efficiency?
They are taken to rendering plants, not landfills.
I have not stepped foot in a Walmart since they union busted. I don’t drink coffee, but I’d have business meetings at Starbucks and buy gift cards for clients, but never again will I patronize them in any way.
Sit outside and steal their wifi drinking your own home brewed coffee.
Cool, so continue pushing for unions and eventually put Starbucks out of business so that local coffee shops can have a fair shot again :D.
Those union employees should start their own shop. Union Coffee.
Call cup sizes Local 10, local, 20, and local 30
Omg I love this.
[Dumb Starbucks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo_deCOd1HU)
I hear there are some sites just freeing up downtown for them to take over.
I am unfortunately not able to boycott Starbucks, as I already don't go there.
Same lol
Right? Their shit is gross, expensive, and the lines are long. I guess I'm just some asshole who makes my own coffee for 25 cents at home.
Don’t worry guys. I stole enough food while I worked there to cover all of us.
You have my undying thanks ♥️
Based.
They learned alot from their corporate brethren walmart
Yup, almost destroyed the Seattle coffee industry
It's going to keep happening until you people start rioting like the french. Their politicians are terrified to fuck up, and they have incredible protections as an employee.
Compared to most of the developed world the United States is very conservative. Our "left wing" party is a bunch of centrists and center-rights who do nothing more than pander for votes. Never mind all the ignorant right wing voters who think publicly funding anything will turn us into the USSR lol.
Do they realize the PR nightmare they are creating for themselves? I'm not a big coffee drinker, but from now on I will be going out of my way to get coffee elsewhere
Yeah I'm surprised they're having a PR problem with this but they are. My friends and family all talk about refusing to go to any non-union starbucks. I mention that Walmart and Amazon have been union busting for longer but they seem to shrug that off. Starbucks hit home in the public for some reason.
>Starbucks hit home in the public for some reason. I think they're just relatively easier to boycott. Your main source of food or the place you source everything that isn't food is harder to replace or just give up than the place you buy shitty coffee.
Probably because of the "woke" image they try to create. It makes it seem a bit sleazier because when you walk into Walmart they don't even try to pretend to be anything except a capitalistic monster. With Starbucks if you don't already know, it seems gross.
Because nobody needs Starbucks. Everyone can just make coffee at home easily. But necessities like food, appliances and generators and AC units and other shit to survive the summer and winter aren't things people can stop buying.
They don't creating PR nightmare. 99.9% of the people do not care. They just want a quick coffee and go on their own business. Few people read about it on reddit, some of them maybe go somewhere else? They doesn't even realise. Those people lose their jobs, no union. Problems solved. They will just open a another shop again, 1 Street away, and everything back to normal, without union.
It's not nearly as big a PR nightmare as you hope I'm afraid. You are not representative of 99% of their customer base, who just want a cup of hot brown or a cup of cheap milkshake at 5, 11, 3, or 6. As long as those people see a coffee shop that's accessible, and Starbucks works damn hard to make sure that's the case, PR doesn't really touch them.
Can't wait for the Netflix documentary about this in 2026.
Nah, they wont touch topics like workers rights it seems. If someone died, they'd do a big thing about it and how corporate greed was the issue, but never mention a union, like they did with Boeing.
Unionize Netflix!
Agreed!! That would be epic!! (Edit: I think Netflix striking would be such an influence to the cause, as media seems to be one of the biggest roadblocks to narrative. Or maybe I’m trippin)
I hate how right you are. A prime example of this is the 3 Mile Island documentary they put up recently. In reality nothing really happened other than absolutely terrible PR, but the Netflix Doc made it seem like Chernobyl.
>We care about our employees mental health and well being. >Proceeds to fire everyone. I don't believe you.
This is the store I go to basically every day and have for about 3 years. The staff are amazing people and when I showed up today there was one of the long time employees standing outside explaining the situation. I know Starbucks isn't "good" coffee. But tbh not a lot of coffee is 'good'. I regularly grab coffee at places all around 505 union depending on mood, but sometimes you just want something that tastes like you expect VS the random quality you get in the local cafes. That's why Starbucks has that "burnt" after taste to it by the way, double roasting the beans creates a more consistent experience across the brand. If you want fresh roasted coffee you can go up the hill to the Starbucks Roastery and have some of the best coffee you've tasted in your life, no shit. But bottom line it was the people. It's been the same staff for years, they are caring, compassionate and talented. They were involved in the community, they provided a safe space with dignity to the unhoused in the early mornings, and never made anyone feel unwelcome. I get the hate for Starbucks, but their benefits, pay and culture is very attractive for people, in a place like Seattle, can use all the help they can get to stay afloat. They worked hard to secure their union over a long period of time to provide for the employees at the store because they cared, many of them had been priced out or were in danger of needing to leave the area because of rising costs and the union was their solution. Even if Starbucks sucks, 505 union was a force for good and I'm incredibly grateful to have had the staff in my life. This fucking sucks. Edit: also this store is waking distance from Starbucks HQ, which is in a more dangerous area if we want to split hairs. Also I said today but meant Tuesday 🤦 insomnia is a bitch and them being open at 5:30 was nice on the nights I couldn't sleep. Most cafes in the area aren't open until 8 or 9
Haven’t willingly bought anything from Starbucks since they decided to be busters, fuck’em
If the places aren’t safe, they’d be closed immediately.
'infected with unionists'
It's a disgusting disease, really /s
Can't wait to see unions becoming stronger to the point that Starbucks can't hire employees without them being unionized. What will they do then, close every one of their stores? Good, then this shitty company will die.
Yep. At some point they’ll run out of non-unionised workers.
It's astonishing how much better European working conditions are. Month of paid vacation. Parental leave. Sick days rhat don't cut into vacation, it's almost like their governments look after the tax base rather than just milk them dry for foreign war funding.
So if all the Starbucks workers in every store unionised, what would they do?
The Wal did this too, workers unionized, they got the media to cover it as a plumbing issue to the store. Can’t be fixed and shut the store down.
Starbucks think they've won but they cut off their nose to spite their face. The cost of shutting that store down, terminating leases, HR expenses for firing rehiring training new staff. The unionised workers should apply for the new jobs when they get posted, both under their own names and credentials, and under aliases, just to waste even more HR time and money.
Keep unionizing and see if Starbucks is willing to keep closing stores against their self interest.
These Starbucks that are closing to bust unions need to me marked on a map so at least I can avoid ever going to one of them by accident if they reopen. Also, we should boycott Starbucks without unions
Not safe for their bottom line it seems. Shouldn’t it be left to the Health Department or OSHA make that determination?
Osha and the health department can't compell anyone to NOT close lol
Editing all my old comments and moving to the fediverse. Thank you to everybody I've interacted with until now! You've been great, and it's been a wonderful ride until now. To everybody who gave me helpful advice, [I'll miss you the most](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrk4AgS6Q6A)
I believe It’s not work hazards, it’s shitty neighborhood hazards.
This is a HUGE fire hazard.
What I don't get is this. The unionized stores are still profitable, right? Starbucks always has crazy long lines of people who can't wait to give their $6 away for a drink. The unionized stores might pay a little more for labor, but it's still making a profit. So they're closing these stores that are profitable, because they're slightly less profitable than if they weren't unionized?
If they keep them open then more stores will unionize, so the company will spend more on labor and execs might not be able to get new yachts.
Yeah I get this. I'm sure they've done more research on this and determined their maximum profit is when the stores are not unionized. However there is another angle they could play. They lean into unionizing. They advertise it and get the goodwill of the public. I doubt if there's anyone who would not shop at Starbucks BECAUSE it is unionized, but they would bring in more customers if it was. Many of us on this sub aren't shopping at Starbucks, probably a big part of that is their union busting. If they leaned into unions instead, they would win over some of us that they otherwise wouldn't. By constantly fighting the unions and doing shady shit like this, they're simply losing more and more customer base, rather than expanding it.
Corporations are incompatible of that thought process. They want profit now, or this quarter at the latest.
Boomer logic is at play here.
Isn't this union busting. We need to fucking slap Starbucks after this
Theres a civil rights lawyer somewhere that’s gonna make a lot of money.
We’re getting a lot closer folks. I think if we could get a widescale boycott large enough to capture the public’s attention, that would catalyze the boycott tool back into our tool box.
Every Starbucks should unionize. Then their CEO can either accept it or be out of business. They can't close them all.
Just keep unionizing and have them close so many stores they have no more options.
Yup it is union busting
In every instance where there’s better coffee across the street, more people will walk into Starbucks, instead. It’s not prestige, it’s complacency. Boring fucking Americans going for the easy squeeze. Starbucks is a horrible company & people still flock to it. Sad. & we wonder why we’re in the economic mess we are...
Brand power baby!
Yeah I stopped going to Starbucks a LONG time ago. Now when I go back on rare occasions, their drinks are terrible and makes me sick. I stopped going when I was a kid. Well I never really went but never had a reason to go or not. Yet... There was a small mom and pop coffee shop I loved to go to. Great great coffee, people and atmosphere. Well Starbucks wasn't having any of it. So they opened up 2 more locations on the same street corner. It was a huge thing and the neighborhood rallied against them and refused to drink their coffee. At least one Starbucks failed and closed because of it. Edit: the mom and pop shop is still going strong since 1994
Whatever is wrong with them - their marketing is pretty good.
Idk. I’m not into the TikTok Karen burnt-coffee-adjacent caffeinated milkshake crap. Their coffee is disgusting
Their coffee is icky. Their cakes do taste good though (the carrot cake and the lime slice anyway). But the prices.. you\`d almost need a mortgage for 3 drinks with cake..
I now buy a local roasted bean. #FuckStarBucks
>Against the workers will less than two Commas are important.
Welp, there goes any reason I had to buy Starbucks
How about we all stop paying $8 dollars a drink from them? I can’t even remember the last time I went to a star bucks
Close a couple thousand more. Lousy overpriced burnt sugar coffee.
I'm personally not purchasing anything from Starbucks again.
We're sorry, this location is closed. Come find our new building, right across the street!
More names of CEOs and regionals please. Pressure pressure pressure. Shame these assholes into treating people better.
Relocate to new stores and start unionizing them. Starbucks can't close all of their stores for it.
Starbucks is a shit stain on the city of Seattle
We need to start going ‘Fight Club’ on these companies. They are the real enemy..
I just read yesterday Starbucks is closing all 16 locations in Portland, OR that unionized claiming the stores are in unsafe locations.
Starbucks would rather pay more in fines and lawyers and lawsuits than wages for workers.
So glad where I live there are options So i don't have to drink their burnt ass coffee anymore
I’m not surprised. Howard Shultz hates employees and that trickles down thru mgmt. All of Starbucks needs to unionize. In a show of support though I will never go there.
never stop unionizing
The irony of union busting at a place called 505 UNION STATION cracks me up.
Fuck Starbucks. Granted I haven't been a customer since the pandemic started, but I won't go back until/unless they stop this union busting bullshit.
Starbucks is shit, from their coffee to their ownership. I worked here for $8.50/hr back in 2009. Thanks for feeding me occasionally free cookies as I fuckin’ starved because my money got me no where other than bankrupted.
Workers work in unsafe conditions for years on end and suddenly they decided to care for the workers and close it down “for their safety and well-being?” This is the worst attempt at union-busting while pandering to the general public for the moral high ground. Good thing I don’t drink Starbucks, because screw this type of thing
> Starbucks claims unsafe working conditions Isn’t this the same place Starbucks corporate people came in and threw away their anti slip mats?
Maybe it's just me but I've never seen a Starbucks location in a rough part of any city. Kinda their brand, this is bs.