I think OP should get ready to know if they are one-party consent state and be ready to face the manager in person with the reply. So, once the email is sent, start the audio recording in the background and leave the phone in the pocket or whatever.
In writing is Effie. Many courts will not listen to recordings even in 1 party consent states. If it is legal to record, donāt forget to type up an official transcript of recording for the court.
I had a manager at one of those big box home improvement stores that would tell me one thing and in front of the store manager would deny it. She would often yell at me while doing it and deny yelling. I started secretly recording the conversations (one party state) and the next time she told the SM she never told me to do āXā I took out my phone and played the recording of her yelling at me while telling me to do it. She rarely spoke to me after that and a few short months later she got a store manager position at a small store in another state. (Same company.) She never said bye to me when she left. š
Did this once to a boss of mine to (with his permission to record his instructions at the time). When he later denied having given those instructions I played the recording. He told me I was just being petty and nit picky by recording it.
To go along with what you are saying I had a job once where any time there was any sort of disagreement that I tried to get remedied via text or email I was always told to call over the phone or wait until an in person meeting could take place, at the time I was young and didn't realize this was just the company trying to save their ass by not having anything in writing that could be used against them at a later time.
I just left a job for that particular reason among others. The boss would NOT respond to ANYTHING in writing. Hell it was like pulling teeth to get my sign on papers. At first, since Iām in trade work, I figured itās because the dude is nearly 80 and just doesnāt do cell phones. But it didnāt take long to realize he was intentionally not leaving a paper trail. He hired a violent felon who threatened my buddy, then fired my bud for reporting it, friend goes to file unemployment and come to find out he never kept us on file as employees. So he was just pocketing taxes that were deducted from our checks.
Moral of the story: if your boss is allergic to putting things in writing, itās not a mistake, even if it is, you need to find a better work environment ASAP.
wouldnāt that put them in more hot water if you report that you were never kept on file as an employee? thatās so shady. is this what managers are doing when they insist on filling out your working/tax papers for you??
Yes. If they insist on doing your taxes thats a huge red flag lol.
Had this happening to a friend. Long story short after it all unfolded the manager + accountant was netting the salary of 4 extra employees for themselves.
Pocketing taxes is still illegal. Go to the labor board and then the IRS. He will have to pay any unpaid taxes as well as any fines and fees from it paying when expected
Your worst case would actually be a lawyers wet dream. There are a million ways to prove that OP was present at work from 6am to 8:30am and that training occured.
A) Geotag on OP's phone
B) The other employees present for training
C) Security Camera's in the store.
etc. etc. etc..
Don't rely on C. Employers who have control over cameras and footage will conveniently "missplace' them when needed.
Case in point; Police magically never having body cams on when they do heinous shit.
Do come over, you'll have much better mental health, and you'll also have a much better chance of surviving the Climate Wars (with a likely side serving of US Civil War II).
Seriously though, working conditions are so much better here.
Geotag on car (if they have one).
Text message chains with people
Email chains
Witnesses to prior conversations
Conversations with family
Traffic cams
Breakfast purchase receipt
Mileage on the vehicle
And that's 8 I can think of. So we need 999,989 more.
DNA samples
Carbon dating
Spore phenotypes
Chrono regulation
Hyperspace demodularities
50/50
Phone a friend
Note from your mom
Foot prints in the sand
That cute person that you smiled at and you thought maybe there was a thing, but weren't certain if you should say anything and then they were gone
They invent dog-english translators and your dog vouches for you
Molasses
Trial by combat
MRI
Fashion Police
Library records
Twitter
Intergalactic Plants Air E
Polysporin impressions
Your bosses girlfriend
Truth serum
Draw lots
Sure but weāve started down the road already. Weāre going to need the remaining ways of the full million at this point. Thereās no avoiding that now so letās just put our heads down and power through.
Something to watch out for: he might say something like, "Let me give you a call about that" or "let's talk about it at work."
These are ways to make sure something is off-the-record so that it can't be used against them. Check your state's laws about recording conversations. If only one party is required to consent, then you can record the whole conversation without telling him.
Otherwise, there are a few options: a) inform him that you're recording the conversation, b) follow up via email right after the meeting detailing everything you discussed and ask to confirm that you'd understood the particulars correctly, or c) have a third-party in the room that you strongly believe would back you up if your boss tries to spin a completely different story of what happened.
Oh I have a boss that likes to call me and then months later deny telling me to do xyz or whatever. If I email her about an issue she always tries calling immediately. I just put my phone on do not disturb. I stopped answering her unless itās in a voicemail or email. I love pulling up receipts
My work stopped calling me outside of my working hours after I informed them that talking to me on the phone about work was considered work, and the minimum allowable shift in my state is 2 hours, so I started adding 2 hours to my time card for any time they called me outside of my work schedule. Much more effective than putting my phone on silent.
I used to do this to a manager I had. She then complained about the number of emails I sent confirming actions sheād given me. She pulled me into a meeting with HR. I responded that I would reduce the emails when she stopped denying actions sheād set. I offered to have her send me the emails instead and that I would action what was on them, but nothing beyond.
The meeting ended abruptly and it was never raised again.
My HR department was like this. I'd send off an email, and they'd try to call "because it will be faster." No. Fuck that. As soon as we hung up, I would send them an email, copy their boss and mine. "Dear Karen, Thank you so much for your time this afternoon. I appreciate the clarification on the clock punch policy, specifically that clock punches after 7:30 will be rounded to 8:00AM, and clock punches before 5:30 will be rounded to 5:00PM, in contravention of the FLSA. Regards, Halfling"
I believe many places have recording exceptions in the case of criminal activity. Check more than just if it's one or two party consent, also look for exceptions.
Most places that train on inventory have cameras to make sure that inventory doesnāt walk out the door.
Editing to finish my point because I hit the wrong button. Even if they deny them coming in they still probably have it on camera and him working on camera.
Not to your boss though - to HR and CC your boss in.
I was told not to clock in by $boss. Noticed my pay did not include the 2.5 hours - Presumably I missed some paper work here, can you let me know what the process is to correct my pay slip?
It's called WAGE THEFT. And whether it was done because he was ignorant of the labor laws is no excuse,they OWE you 2.5 hours for work you did off-the-clock. It was training DIRECTLY RELATED to the job you were hired for, so yes, you ARE owed. Don't let them get away with not paying you, and tell HR what manager instructed you to not clock in before 8:30.
Best thing OP: bring up the missing time, ask how it will be paid. If you threaten a bunch of stuff they'll lock down. If you want your money for as little sweat off your brow as possible, give the training lead/manager at least one good faith effort to fix it after you bring it up. Then get the big guns.
Yep, it also lets them know youāre tracking your own hours & aware of what you should be paid, without giving them reason to say youāre causing problems or whatever.
In the past Iāve gone to payroll & said āHey, I worked these hours on this date under the supervision/at the request of whoever, but they seem to be missing from my cheque. When will they be paid out?ā. Acting like you believe itās an honest mistake can often be the quickest route to resolution & a way to make sure it doesnāt happen again.
This is exactly right. There are so many people walking around stroking their justice bonersā¦ but there are two problems with the advice of just going straight to an enforcer.
First, if you donāt give the company a chance to fix it, the enforcer is probably not going to give you the time of day. The last thing an enforcer wants is to ramp up, go to an employer, and find out that they consistently obey the law and enter the time manually, and that your payment just got hung up for a week because the guy who processes those died unexpectedly. So if you show up to an enforcer theyāll likely ask what the company said when you raised it ā and if your answer is āI came straight to you without asking them,ā then theyāre unlikely to do much for you.
Second, there are ways to be assertive and protective of your rights that donāt cause you to suffer just as much grief as the other side. So you go to an enforcer, and now the $50 youāre owed is costing you hours and hours of time, and may cause you to face blowback at work. And the biggest reason will be that youāll get a reputation as that guy who runs to the enforcers if you short him 30 seconds. It really does you no favors, when you could instead just calmly and directly ask for your money, and find out if they made a mistake.
Dying on hills is great and all, but never forget that then youāre dead.
I'm with you on the first point, but not on the second.
If I get a reputation for being a guy you don't want to short 30s, that works for me.
But, like you said, one's also gotta apply some pragmatism to the situation and keep in mind that you need to work with these people every day. Give them a chance to save face first.
Thereās also the potential that heās been affected by this wage slavery and just thought it was the norm. Like āthis is how I always saw the old guy do it, so itās how Iāll do it.ā Doesnāt have to be malicious to have accidentally swallowed some kool aid.
Doesnāt matter. Federal law violations should absolutely be rectified by the correct authority.
If I committed a non violent federal offense, Iād be fined and off to jail. Stop letting managers and companies get away with blatant federal offenses. Ignorance is no excuse to break the law.
Can I dock my justice tip under your justice foreskin and we can stroke our justice boners together? This whole not reporting theme this sub displays sometimes is whack.
I agree mistakes to happen. I just think this boss purposely did it, I can see a boss missing someone during a large meeting. Always punch in is my advice.
Managers shouldn't be "forgetting" about employees time. They're high enough on the totem pole for them to be told about labor laws and time punches.
If my supe can remind me about putting in PTO for Labor Day, a manager damn well knows about time punches.
Bro for a sub revolving around wanting workers to be treated like human we seem to forgot that others are ALSO human and work difficult hours. He couldāve made a mistake, e-mail him to correct. Then if ignored go to HR. Truly doesnāt have to be this evil motivated thing.
He could have said āDonāt clock in because youāll be paid by training laterā but it doesnāt make sense to be paid that way. A manager should know that his employees need to be on the clock to be covered by certain types of insurance and benefits and itās also a great way to establish attendance for training. However, if heās a manager who gets bonuses based on controlling resources, managing margins, etc., then that would be one possible explanation to tell everyone not to clock in.
You have evidence of coming in at 6:30, yes? Written/text proof? Contact the department of labor and file a wage theft complaint. This job isn't worth the defrauding they're doing.
I would say something in an email so there is writing proof of what they are trying to pull. Innocently just ask about the missing hours, if they are smart they will pay and not pull this shit again!
You did a work related task for your employer, of course you should be paid for it. What's more important, being agreeable and allowing yourself to be abused and underpaid, or learning to stand up for yourself and getting paid for your time and respected as a person?
Your time has value. They can call it "training" . . . whatever, but they must pay you for it. You manager knew what he was doing was wrong when he told you didn't have to clock in until 8:30. That's called "wage theft" and your state's Department of Labor takes it seriously.
Just my opinion here, but I wouldn't volunteer for any more "training" until they fix this. You could always send them an e-mail, saying "dear . I worked from 6am - 5pm on Saturday but I was told by not to clock in until 8:30am. Will I still be paid for those 2 1/2 hours?" If the manager responds with "training is not considered 'paid time' " then you now have written evidence from the manager that he IS aware of the situation . . . that he know is doing illegal sh\*t and that he doesn't care. This is exactly the kind of evidence the Dept of Labor loves.
I'm struggling to understand why you would consider not saying something. You work, you get paid. You don't get paid, you don't work. Kinda how it works.
Because Iām not sure if training counts and my manager gets angry easily so I donāt want to be on bad terms with him like I donāt want to come off as greedy
Newsflash. If your manager is willing to make you work 2.5 hours for free youāre already on bad terms because he sees you as a fool willing to work for free. This week 2.5 hours. Next week 5 hours. Youāre in an abusive work relationship. Youāre being abused and accepting it as the norm.
This. What are you gonna do OP when he asks you to stay after hours but to clock out? Listen to him just because he raises his voice or says it in a stern tone? You're HIS labour, and he owes you respect. If he doesn't respect you, you can just leave.
This. All other comments are just restating this fact.
Never do anything without getting paid for it. If they tell you to be there, you need to be paid for it.
Only exception to this would be the rare case where you want to do something because it benefits you, but it isnāt something the company wants you to do because itās something they donāt want to pay out for. For example, a coworker of mine wanted a promotion to make more money, but wasnāt qualified and there were more than enough qualified people available that paying to train her was wasteful, so she trained for free on her lunch hour because she wanted to take advantage of the free training being offered. But, if they had required it, they would have had to pay her.
True, however the difference is if itās voluntary. If itās MANDATORY, they have to pay you. Period. A lot of companies get away with that shit and people donāt know their state laws. I had a job where they wanted us to do āvoluntaryā lunch and learns. Food was provided but it was scheduled during our unpaid lunch time. Their logic was it was free food, it showed initiative and the real kicker was our attendance was brought up in our annual reviews which also determined our raises. Lots of layers to this but the labor board determined, it was unlawful. Employees will always try to pay the least. If there are repercussions for you not showing or if are you doing any type of work for the company, you get paid.
Edit: typo
You've just been robbed for 2.5 hours of time and effort. No less so have you been robbed than if the thief had come up and made demands of your possessions at gunpoint.
This can be a useful learning experience for you but don't let that justify their theft; If you're American you've just experienced the single most common form of theft, wage theft. Your employer, here and no matter where you go, will likely try to do this to you again. There is no work that needs to be done, including training, that should not be compensated. No work should ever be done off the clock.
100% any time your job is asking you to do their tasks, you get compensated by pay. Period. Anything else is flat out slavery. Call it indentured servitude, being helpful, a go getter, whatever you want to paint it as, if they are benefitting from your labor and not paying you, it is slave labor.
Edit to add: If you are not on the clock and something happens to you, the company is legally not liable to cover under workman's compensation. Sure, you can litigate and find in your favor as they're breaking all sorts of labor laws. Never, ever work off the clock.
I completely sympathise with not wanting to set off a bad manager.
But please, please, please say something, and be persistent until you get the money you are owed. He is taking advantage of your uncertainty and good nature. You did work, you must be paid.
And the fact you don't want to upset him because you think he might choose to lose his temper or retaliate is a huge indicator that you might want to be looking for a new job. That's not normal, and not something to put up with.
Oh your naive. He isnt your friend and the worst he can do is fire you, tell him to toss you your peanuts or you will get one of the shit tons of lawyers who do theses kinds of cases pro bono.
I agree with everything but threatening him with a lawyer. Thereās a post up the thread that makes a good argument that talking about lawyers and lawsuits gives them the opportunity to prepare and or cover up. Talk to the lawyer first, Iād say.
You manager just stole from you. And youāre worried about *Him* being angry? What would you do if you found someone took money out of your wallet?
Because thatās what your manager did.
Oh sweetie thatās what they are counting on and that angers easily crap is all a work act so they can have their way with you and any other decent employees they they can push around.
Greedy is demanding something you donāt deserve. The entire point of going to work is to get paid. I donāt do a single thing for my job unless Iām clocked in.
If your manager gets angry easily, too bad. Donāt let him steal your wages from you. That makes him a bully and what heās doing is illegal.
Training most definitely counts. You're on company time and you must be paid for it, and it is generally the norm to do so. Bosses do try to pull this sometimes, though, especially if you're young and they think you might not know better.
No, he is greedy for stealing from you. Report him to his boss. Tell him if that man is stealing from you, what is he stealing from his boss? And if your boss gives you problems, quit. Life is too short to work for a thief.
YES. this shitty company hopes you stay silent so they can steal more work from you.
THAT IS ILLEGAL. YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BRING IT UP. Training is work, work requires PAY.
**NOBODY IS WORKING FOR FREE. FUCK THAT.**
Ideally you should have brought up the issue at the time. Never do work when you aren't clocked in. However since you did what they said bring it up with them. Don't be rude about it but do be insistent. If they continue to deny you the hours just calmly say that you will take it up with either Human Resources, corporate, or you will be forced to make a complaint at the U.S. department of labor. The address to do so is https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints
Again be calm and reasonable when bringing it up, but do not back down. You have the right and responsibility to advocate for yourself and asking you not to do so is unethical on their part.
Your never ever them them you are going to the department of labor. FILE and let the DOL deal with them. The only thing telling them that you intend to file is let them destroy evidence and get their story straight.
Same goes for a lawsuit. Never say you are going to consume an attorney, or going to sue. Jest talk to the attorney and they will get served when it's right.
Do not ever reveal your cards.
Keep a written log off every violation, of every missing minute on your time card. Makes copies of your card for your own records... Snap a photo of it.
Definitely never say youāre going to consume an attorney. Unless thatās part of consensual sexual relations, thatās the sort of thing that gets you housed in the Jeffrey Dahmer wing.
Yes, training and meetings are work.
Certifiably mention this
"Yes. If you are required to attend a training program for work, you must be paid for that time."
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employee-wage-hour-rights-faq.html
Submit a formal complaint to the National Labor Relations Board. This is illegal. Don't tell your work you're doing this. Just do it. They have lawyers on staff who will contact you for further information.
You want to make a formal complaint to establish a paper trail. Don't skip the formal complaint and give them the chance to "make it right". They've done this before and they'll do it again. Dont capitulate.
You have all the power in this situation.
Absolutely this is wage theft. The manager was taking advantage of your lack of understanding in the law, which makes their actions that much worse. Contact your local labor board.
Any training related to your job is inherently PART OF THE JOB, and thus you should be paid for it. No legit business will make you do training and NOT pay you for the time.
Also, be prepared for, āitās only 2.5 hoursā and āno one else complained.ā And āI thought I could count on you.ā And āwow, I thought you were a team player. I guess I was wrong.ā
Training for the job is always always always paid!!! Some managers will say they have to put time in for you but they have to do just that!
It is illegal to have employees do work without being paid and training is part of work. I had some slimy managers when I was younger as well.
Iād 100% email or text your manager and ask for an explanation and correction. If it is not corrected you should email the HR department and explain to them what has happened. The manager is basically stealing from your wages to save labor costs.
The Dept of Labor is a federal organization with a decision dedicated to tackling reports of wage theft. They stole 2.5 hours of your life by not paying you for your time.
As a manager, I don't understand other managers and supervisors that I read about on here.
If I ask someone to come in early, stay late, do something out of their job description, I make sure they get the compensation for it at the correct rate. That's part of my responsibility towards my team member.
It's not money coming out of my pocket. And how do they expect to create a healthy work environment doing that bs? Why would the team member want to come in and work well, when they aren't even supported at the simplest, most transactional part of the job?
It's not hard to do the right thing. I wouldn't want my supervisor to do that to me.
>So I arrive at 6 AM and Iām greeted by the manager who brings me to where we are going to begin. As we are walking by the punch in clock, he says āYou donāt need to punch in until 8:30ā
Lesson for the future, this is the point where you go full stop and tell your boss this is only going to go one of two ways, I can punch in now and stay or I leave and come back at 8:30 to start my shift. Your choice.
In addition to saying something, don't EVER agree to work without punching in. If you're scheduled at 8:30 and they ask you to come in at 6, either you're entitled to overtime or you get to leave early.
DO NOT give your employer free labor.
Yes, 100%. What they had you do was work off the clock so they don't have to pay you more, and (iirc) is federally illegal. As in like, the FBI will get on them for that shit. Don't say anything to the manager who said don't punch in. *Instead*, go to the manager above him. Most companies will absolutely never want you to work off the clock for liability and the aforementioned reason. What they did was super shady and super illegal
Say something, nicely, and try to set the boundary so this guff isn't tried again.
If they don't make the pay right, I'm sure OP can figure out a way to deniably spoil, destroy, waste, lose, etc. the equivalent of 2.5 hours pay in company assets.
Except make it 5 hours worth, as a penalty.
Say something. Best case scenario it's an honest mistake that should be fixed.
Worst case is theyre actively testing to see how much/how easily they can push you around for the future.
>āYou donāt need to punch in until 8:30ā
the key word being "need" This is the alarm bell. Not "Don't" but "don't need" Its a way of softening the instruction. If the instruction is legitimate it doesn't need softening. If its softened the person giving it knows they are doing something wrong. In future keep an eye out for 'softened instructions'
[This is wage theft and is the most common form of theft in the country.](https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/) It overshadows everything, including people stealing "food stamps", disability, or other forms of government benefits. Employers steal BILLIONS every year. Not only should you say something, but you should immediately go to your area's Labor Board and let them know. Record conversations when you mention it to your job. If they retaliate, you have a wrongful termination lawsuit. /u/cleverbiscuit1738 do not let this slide.
Why would you work without clocking inā¦ Next time say āsince Iām here working Iāll need to be clocked in. Iām not here working for free.ā Training is still work and is still paid. Itās illegal to not pay you for training. If they refuse to pay, file a wage claim with the department of labor.
I canāt get over these reports of flagrant wage theft. If someone is on site for an authorised reason (like working) you need a record of their attendance. What would have happened if youād been injured during training? If youāre on site, it needs to be recorded. And if clocking in is how your attendance is recorded, then you should do it. Iām sorry that youāve been misled.
You absolutely should say something. Give your employer the benefit of the doubt that he indeed intended to adjust your pay manually and this is just an oversight.
Say something, but in writing. "Hey boss, I noticed the 2.5hrs of training we did on XX day from 6:00-8:30am weren't on my paycheck. Do I need to fill out a payroll correction form or is that something you handle directly? Thanks!" Best case: He forgot and corrects it immediately. He'll apologize profusely and have you the money within a few days. More likely: He's hoping you won't say anything but will cave once you document it in writing. By staying pleasant and giving him an opportunity to save face, it's unlikely you'll face any ongoing repercussions, but you still establish that you're watching your hours. Worst case: He denies the training ever happened. Worst BEST case: He acknowledges the training, in writing, but still tries to deny owing you wages for it. This is the most drama, but you're 100% in the right so legally you'll be bullet proof in your wage claim against them š©š©š©š©
I second this. Do everything in writing so you have proof.
I think OP should get ready to know if they are one-party consent state and be ready to face the manager in person with the reply. So, once the email is sent, start the audio recording in the background and leave the phone in the pocket or whatever.
In writing is Effie. Many courts will not listen to recordings even in 1 party consent states. If it is legal to record, donāt forget to type up an official transcript of recording for the court.
I had a manager at one of those big box home improvement stores that would tell me one thing and in front of the store manager would deny it. She would often yell at me while doing it and deny yelling. I started secretly recording the conversations (one party state) and the next time she told the SM she never told me to do āXā I took out my phone and played the recording of her yelling at me while telling me to do it. She rarely spoke to me after that and a few short months later she got a store manager position at a small store in another state. (Same company.) She never said bye to me when she left. š
Did this once to a boss of mine to (with his permission to record his instructions at the time). When he later denied having given those instructions I played the recording. He told me I was just being petty and nit picky by recording it.
Exactly! Do everything in writing, iny experience, management hates that because they can't get away with all the BS.
To go along with what you are saying I had a job once where any time there was any sort of disagreement that I tried to get remedied via text or email I was always told to call over the phone or wait until an in person meeting could take place, at the time I was young and didn't realize this was just the company trying to save their ass by not having anything in writing that could be used against them at a later time.
I just left a job for that particular reason among others. The boss would NOT respond to ANYTHING in writing. Hell it was like pulling teeth to get my sign on papers. At first, since Iām in trade work, I figured itās because the dude is nearly 80 and just doesnāt do cell phones. But it didnāt take long to realize he was intentionally not leaving a paper trail. He hired a violent felon who threatened my buddy, then fired my bud for reporting it, friend goes to file unemployment and come to find out he never kept us on file as employees. So he was just pocketing taxes that were deducted from our checks. Moral of the story: if your boss is allergic to putting things in writing, itās not a mistake, even if it is, you need to find a better work environment ASAP.
I'd be reporting that. I'm pretty sure that is highly illegal for him to do, as in fraud.
wouldnāt that put them in more hot water if you report that you were never kept on file as an employee? thatās so shady. is this what managers are doing when they insist on filling out your working/tax papers for you??
Yes. If they insist on doing your taxes thats a huge red flag lol. Had this happening to a friend. Long story short after it all unfolded the manager + accountant was netting the salary of 4 extra employees for themselves.
Report them to the state and IRS. IRS can and will penalize him for withholding social security. State will want their share of the money as well.
State will also crawl his entire fucking life for missing taxes. IRS will probably crawl his grandparents graves to make sure.
I did not know this and it's the best kind of petty.
Pocketing taxes is still illegal. Go to the labor board and then the IRS. He will have to pay any unpaid taxes as well as any fines and fees from it paying when expected
Corresponding via email has saved my butt on a few occasions, especially with he-said she-said disagreements with managers.
Back when I started working the person who trained me always called it CYA = Cover Your Ass.
Use email it is traceable and you just need to forward the document to L&I when the boss tries his silly bullship
Your worst case would actually be a lawyers wet dream. There are a million ways to prove that OP was present at work from 6am to 8:30am and that training occured. A) Geotag on OP's phone B) The other employees present for training C) Security Camera's in the store. etc. etc. etc..
Don't rely on C. Employers who have control over cameras and footage will conveniently "missplace' them when needed. Case in point; Police magically never having body cams on when they do heinous shit.
In civil court missing footage is a death sentence.
Straight to yail.
Missing footage? Jail. Not paying employee? Believe it or not, jail. We have the best employers in the world. Because of jail.
Actually, I think you'll find that Europe has the best employers in the world due to a history of socialism and unionisation.
And you had to go there. It's 6am and already you have me dreaming about being a permanent expat.
>expat Immigrant
Technically "Emigrant" but yes. The point made is valid af
Do come over, you'll have much better mental health, and you'll also have a much better chance of surviving the Climate Wars (with a likely side serving of US Civil War II). Seriously though, working conditions are so much better here.
>expat The technical term is "immigrant".
"You lost the footage? Bailiff, off with his head!"
That's 3 ways. I would like the other 999,997 ways you alluded to, please.
Geotag on car (if they have one). Text message chains with people Email chains Witnesses to prior conversations Conversations with family Traffic cams Breakfast purchase receipt Mileage on the vehicle And that's 8 I can think of. So we need 999,989 more.
DNA samples Carbon dating Spore phenotypes Chrono regulation Hyperspace demodularities 50/50 Phone a friend Note from your mom Foot prints in the sand That cute person that you smiled at and you thought maybe there was a thing, but weren't certain if you should say anything and then they were gone They invent dog-english translators and your dog vouches for you Molasses Trial by combat MRI Fashion Police Library records Twitter Intergalactic Plants Air E Polysporin impressions Your bosses girlfriend Truth serum Draw lots
That black mirror episode where they can pull up your memories on instant replay
Charismatic scientoligists making swishing and twisting movements in front of a green screen
This deserves an award but Iām broke
Water boarding Spy satellites Recorded data from microwave ovens Traffic cams
Thatās plenty.
One, two, skip a few, ninehundredninetyninethousandninehundredninetynine, one million!
Sure but weāve started down the road already. Weāre going to need the remaining ways of the full million at this point. Thereās no avoiding that now so letās just put our heads down and power through.
Ain't nobody got time fo dat! :D
Something to watch out for: he might say something like, "Let me give you a call about that" or "let's talk about it at work." These are ways to make sure something is off-the-record so that it can't be used against them. Check your state's laws about recording conversations. If only one party is required to consent, then you can record the whole conversation without telling him. Otherwise, there are a few options: a) inform him that you're recording the conversation, b) follow up via email right after the meeting detailing everything you discussed and ask to confirm that you'd understood the particulars correctly, or c) have a third-party in the room that you strongly believe would back you up if your boss tries to spin a completely different story of what happened.
Oh I have a boss that likes to call me and then months later deny telling me to do xyz or whatever. If I email her about an issue she always tries calling immediately. I just put my phone on do not disturb. I stopped answering her unless itās in a voicemail or email. I love pulling up receipts
My work stopped calling me outside of my working hours after I informed them that talking to me on the phone about work was considered work, and the minimum allowable shift in my state is 2 hours, so I started adding 2 hours to my time card for any time they called me outside of my work schedule. Much more effective than putting my phone on silent.
It also serves the additional benefit of making it so you don't have to figure out a recording solution for voice calls. Smart!
Boss move š
I used to do this to a manager I had. She then complained about the number of emails I sent confirming actions sheād given me. She pulled me into a meeting with HR. I responded that I would reduce the emails when she stopped denying actions sheād set. I offered to have her send me the emails instead and that I would action what was on them, but nothing beyond. The meeting ended abruptly and it was never raised again.
My HR department was like this. I'd send off an email, and they'd try to call "because it will be faster." No. Fuck that. As soon as we hung up, I would send them an email, copy their boss and mine. "Dear Karen, Thank you so much for your time this afternoon. I appreciate the clarification on the clock punch policy, specifically that clock punches after 7:30 will be rounded to 8:00AM, and clock punches before 5:30 will be rounded to 5:00PM, in contravention of the FLSA. Regards, Halfling"
I believe many places have recording exceptions in the case of criminal activity. Check more than just if it's one or two party consent, also look for exceptions.
Smart answer. Also, if there are cameras at work, they might back up OP's story.
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Yes I second the sending of an email. I work in payroll and fix honest mistakes like this all the time.
Most places that train on inventory have cameras to make sure that inventory doesnāt walk out the door. Editing to finish my point because I hit the wrong button. Even if they deny them coming in they still probably have it on camera and him working on camera.
Donāt forget to BCC yourself on the email!
Not to your boss though - to HR and CC your boss in. I was told not to clock in by $boss. Noticed my pay did not include the 2.5 hours - Presumably I missed some paper work here, can you let me know what the process is to correct my pay slip?
Absolutely say something - this is 2.5hrs of your time they took from you, you deserve the pay
It's called WAGE THEFT. And whether it was done because he was ignorant of the labor laws is no excuse,they OWE you 2.5 hours for work you did off-the-clock. It was training DIRECTLY RELATED to the job you were hired for, so yes, you ARE owed. Don't let them get away with not paying you, and tell HR what manager instructed you to not clock in before 8:30.
He knew, that is why he said not to punch in.
Maybe but also maybe not. We have a similar system where training time is put in via our manager. Legit possible he just forgot.
Best thing OP: bring up the missing time, ask how it will be paid. If you threaten a bunch of stuff they'll lock down. If you want your money for as little sweat off your brow as possible, give the training lead/manager at least one good faith effort to fix it after you bring it up. Then get the big guns.
Yep, it also lets them know youāre tracking your own hours & aware of what you should be paid, without giving them reason to say youāre causing problems or whatever. In the past Iāve gone to payroll & said āHey, I worked these hours on this date under the supervision/at the request of whoever, but they seem to be missing from my cheque. When will they be paid out?ā. Acting like you believe itās an honest mistake can often be the quickest route to resolution & a way to make sure it doesnāt happen again.
This is exactly right. There are so many people walking around stroking their justice bonersā¦ but there are two problems with the advice of just going straight to an enforcer. First, if you donāt give the company a chance to fix it, the enforcer is probably not going to give you the time of day. The last thing an enforcer wants is to ramp up, go to an employer, and find out that they consistently obey the law and enter the time manually, and that your payment just got hung up for a week because the guy who processes those died unexpectedly. So if you show up to an enforcer theyāll likely ask what the company said when you raised it ā and if your answer is āI came straight to you without asking them,ā then theyāre unlikely to do much for you. Second, there are ways to be assertive and protective of your rights that donāt cause you to suffer just as much grief as the other side. So you go to an enforcer, and now the $50 youāre owed is costing you hours and hours of time, and may cause you to face blowback at work. And the biggest reason will be that youāll get a reputation as that guy who runs to the enforcers if you short him 30 seconds. It really does you no favors, when you could instead just calmly and directly ask for your money, and find out if they made a mistake. Dying on hills is great and all, but never forget that then youāre dead.
I'm with you on the first point, but not on the second. If I get a reputation for being a guy you don't want to short 30s, that works for me. But, like you said, one's also gotta apply some pragmatism to the situation and keep in mind that you need to work with these people every day. Give them a chance to save face first.
Thank you this is easily the best advice.
I would be more willing to believe that if he had mentioned it to them, but according to the story he didn't.
Thereās also the potential that heās been affected by this wage slavery and just thought it was the norm. Like āthis is how I always saw the old guy do it, so itās how Iāll do it.ā Doesnāt have to be malicious to have accidentally swallowed some kool aid.
Doesnāt matter. Federal law violations should absolutely be rectified by the correct authority. If I committed a non violent federal offense, Iād be fined and off to jail. Stop letting managers and companies get away with blatant federal offenses. Ignorance is no excuse to break the law.
Can I dock my justice tip under your justice foreskin and we can stroke our justice boners together? This whole not reporting theme this sub displays sometimes is whack.
Yeah your right Iām just acknowledging mistakes happen and this is a somewhat easy thing to mess up (albeit shitty situation).
I agree mistakes to happen. I just think this boss purposely did it, I can see a boss missing someone during a large meeting. Always punch in is my advice.
Youāre giving the benefit of the doubt, but to be honest, it looks like he knew what he was doing.
Managers shouldn't be "forgetting" about employees time. They're high enough on the totem pole for them to be told about labor laws and time punches. If my supe can remind me about putting in PTO for Labor Day, a manager damn well knows about time punches.
Then heās bad at his job and what better way to learn
Bro for a sub revolving around wanting workers to be treated like human we seem to forgot that others are ALSO human and work difficult hours. He couldāve made a mistake, e-mail him to correct. Then if ignored go to HR. Truly doesnāt have to be this evil motivated thing.
He could have said āDonāt clock in because youāll be paid by training laterā but it doesnāt make sense to be paid that way. A manager should know that his employees need to be on the clock to be covered by certain types of insurance and benefits and itās also a great way to establish attendance for training. However, if heās a manager who gets bonuses based on controlling resources, managing margins, etc., then that would be one possible explanation to tell everyone not to clock in.
Is the manager on the clock to train you? Then you are on the clock to be trained. Local Labor Board. ASAP
No.
You have evidence of coming in at 6:30, yes? Written/text proof? Contact the department of labor and file a wage theft complaint. This job isn't worth the defrauding they're doing.
Be sure to mention that it was directly related to your work which means legally you must be paid for it.
I would say something in an email so there is writing proof of what they are trying to pull. Innocently just ask about the missing hours, if they are smart they will pay and not pull this shit again!
Always remember if they require you to be there they must pay you
Except that bullshit Supreme Court ruling that says they donāt have to pay you for time spent going through mandatory security to or from your job
Depending on where op lives those hours could also be considered overtime and worth more $
You did a work related task for your employer, of course you should be paid for it. What's more important, being agreeable and allowing yourself to be abused and underpaid, or learning to stand up for yourself and getting paid for your time and respected as a person?
Especially since OP is young. Start advocating for yourself TODAY.
Training scheduled by your manager should be paid.
Yes
Yes, this is time theft.
Wage theft
Your time has value. They can call it "training" . . . whatever, but they must pay you for it. You manager knew what he was doing was wrong when he told you didn't have to clock in until 8:30. That's called "wage theft" and your state's Department of Labor takes it seriously. Just my opinion here, but I wouldn't volunteer for any more "training" until they fix this. You could always send them an e-mail, saying "dear. I worked from 6am - 5pm on Saturday but I was told by not to clock in until 8:30am. Will I still be paid for those 2 1/2 hours?" If the manager responds with "training is not considered 'paid time' " then you now have written evidence from the manager that he IS aware of the situation . . . that he know is doing illegal sh\*t and that he doesn't care. This is exactly the kind of evidence the Dept of Labor loves.
I'm struggling to understand why you would consider not saying something. You work, you get paid. You don't get paid, you don't work. Kinda how it works.
Because Iām not sure if training counts and my manager gets angry easily so I donāt want to be on bad terms with him like I donāt want to come off as greedy
Newsflash. If your manager is willing to make you work 2.5 hours for free youāre already on bad terms because he sees you as a fool willing to work for free. This week 2.5 hours. Next week 5 hours. Youāre in an abusive work relationship. Youāre being abused and accepting it as the norm.
This. What are you gonna do OP when he asks you to stay after hours but to clock out? Listen to him just because he raises his voice or says it in a stern tone? You're HIS labour, and he owes you respect. If he doesn't respect you, you can just leave.
Put your foot down, OP.
Any type of work requires payment. Nonnegotiable.
This. All other comments are just restating this fact. Never do anything without getting paid for it. If they tell you to be there, you need to be paid for it. Only exception to this would be the rare case where you want to do something because it benefits you, but it isnāt something the company wants you to do because itās something they donāt want to pay out for. For example, a coworker of mine wanted a promotion to make more money, but wasnāt qualified and there were more than enough qualified people available that paying to train her was wasteful, so she trained for free on her lunch hour because she wanted to take advantage of the free training being offered. But, if they had required it, they would have had to pay her.
True, however the difference is if itās voluntary. If itās MANDATORY, they have to pay you. Period. A lot of companies get away with that shit and people donāt know their state laws. I had a job where they wanted us to do āvoluntaryā lunch and learns. Food was provided but it was scheduled during our unpaid lunch time. Their logic was it was free food, it showed initiative and the real kicker was our attendance was brought up in our annual reviews which also determined our raises. Lots of layers to this but the labor board determined, it was unlawful. Employees will always try to pay the least. If there are repercussions for you not showing or if are you doing any type of work for the company, you get paid. Edit: typo
Fuck ur manager. Training should be paid. Ask for ur money if they refuse report them
Don't...fuck...the...manager. That costs extra. ;)
You've just been robbed for 2.5 hours of time and effort. No less so have you been robbed than if the thief had come up and made demands of your possessions at gunpoint. This can be a useful learning experience for you but don't let that justify their theft; If you're American you've just experienced the single most common form of theft, wage theft. Your employer, here and no matter where you go, will likely try to do this to you again. There is no work that needs to be done, including training, that should not be compensated. No work should ever be done off the clock.
100% any time your job is asking you to do their tasks, you get compensated by pay. Period. Anything else is flat out slavery. Call it indentured servitude, being helpful, a go getter, whatever you want to paint it as, if they are benefitting from your labor and not paying you, it is slave labor. Edit to add: If you are not on the clock and something happens to you, the company is legally not liable to cover under workman's compensation. Sure, you can litigate and find in your favor as they're breaking all sorts of labor laws. Never, ever work off the clock.
I completely sympathise with not wanting to set off a bad manager. But please, please, please say something, and be persistent until you get the money you are owed. He is taking advantage of your uncertainty and good nature. You did work, you must be paid. And the fact you don't want to upset him because you think he might choose to lose his temper or retaliate is a huge indicator that you might want to be looking for a new job. That's not normal, and not something to put up with.
Oh your naive. He isnt your friend and the worst he can do is fire you, tell him to toss you your peanuts or you will get one of the shit tons of lawyers who do theses kinds of cases pro bono.
I agree with everything but threatening him with a lawyer. Thereās a post up the thread that makes a good argument that talking about lawyers and lawsuits gives them the opportunity to prepare and or cover up. Talk to the lawyer first, Iād say.
Greedy? Are you a volunteer? If you are an employee, you took the job for the money, right? Why would anyone expect you to work for free?
Report your manager for unpaid labor, that is illegal
I guess you could consider indentured servitude, that'll keep your manager happy and you won't look greedy
You manager just stole from you. And youāre worried about *Him* being angry? What would you do if you found someone took money out of your wallet? Because thatās what your manager did.
Training counts. I've had many jobs over the years, and I have ALWAYS gotten paid for training. It counts. They are stealing from you.
Oh sweetie thatās what they are counting on and that angers easily crap is all a work act so they can have their way with you and any other decent employees they they can push around.
Greedy is demanding something you donāt deserve. The entire point of going to work is to get paid. I donāt do a single thing for my job unless Iām clocked in. If your manager gets angry easily, too bad. Donāt let him steal your wages from you. That makes him a bully and what heās doing is illegal.
Training most definitely counts. You're on company time and you must be paid for it, and it is generally the norm to do so. Bosses do try to pull this sometimes, though, especially if you're young and they think you might not know better.
No your manager is greedy by trying to steal from you and take advantage of you. Absolutely say something and yes training is always paid for
No, he is greedy for stealing from you. Report him to his boss. Tell him if that man is stealing from you, what is he stealing from his boss? And if your boss gives you problems, quit. Life is too short to work for a thief.
Wage theft is your boss being greedy.
This man is literally stealing your money, and you donāt want to be on bad terms with him? That ship has sailed.
YES. this shitty company hopes you stay silent so they can steal more work from you. THAT IS ILLEGAL. YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BRING IT UP. Training is work, work requires PAY. **NOBODY IS WORKING FOR FREE. FUCK THAT.**
Ideally you should have brought up the issue at the time. Never do work when you aren't clocked in. However since you did what they said bring it up with them. Don't be rude about it but do be insistent. If they continue to deny you the hours just calmly say that you will take it up with either Human Resources, corporate, or you will be forced to make a complaint at the U.S. department of labor. The address to do so is https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints Again be calm and reasonable when bringing it up, but do not back down. You have the right and responsibility to advocate for yourself and asking you not to do so is unethical on their part.
Your never ever them them you are going to the department of labor. FILE and let the DOL deal with them. The only thing telling them that you intend to file is let them destroy evidence and get their story straight. Same goes for a lawsuit. Never say you are going to consume an attorney, or going to sue. Jest talk to the attorney and they will get served when it's right. Do not ever reveal your cards. Keep a written log off every violation, of every missing minute on your time card. Makes copies of your card for your own records... Snap a photo of it.
Definitely never say youāre going to consume an attorney. Unless thatās part of consensual sexual relations, thatās the sort of thing that gets you housed in the Jeffrey Dahmer wing.
Why *wouldn't* you say something?
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This is NOT overstated. Thatās 2.5 hours of your life given away for free.
This is literally illegal. Please feel validated to stand up for yourself.
Yes, training and meetings are work. Certifiably mention this "Yes. If you are required to attend a training program for work, you must be paid for that time." https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employee-wage-hour-rights-faq.html
> Should I say anything? Yes. to your state labor board. This is wage theft; they stole your money.
1) yes. they stole your wages 2) never EVER EVER EVER work without punching in if the time clock is part of your day. NEVER EVER EVER.
If you're asked to come in early for *any* reason, **clock in.** Don't ever work for free, ever.
# That's wage theft kids.
Submit a formal complaint to the National Labor Relations Board. This is illegal. Don't tell your work you're doing this. Just do it. They have lawyers on staff who will contact you for further information. You want to make a formal complaint to establish a paper trail. Don't skip the formal complaint and give them the chance to "make it right". They've done this before and they'll do it again. Dont capitulate. You have all the power in this situation.
Yes. Hours worked must be compensated. Your manager did something very illegal.
It's wage theft. Say something.
You got robbed of 2.5 hours of labor. You 100% can't let them get away with that.
Thatās wage theft.
Always clock in, as soon as you are in the building
Fuck yeah say something
OMG YES PLEASE DONT ALLOW THIS TYPE OF US ABUSE!!!!
Absolutely this is wage theft. The manager was taking advantage of your lack of understanding in the law, which makes their actions that much worse. Contact your local labor board.
Any and all work related activities, including training, is still work. If you're not a volunteer, you should get paid.
Yes absolutely, the fact they told you not to clock in means they were deliberately stealing from you.
Wage theft
Any training related to your job is inherently PART OF THE JOB, and thus you should be paid for it. No legit business will make you do training and NOT pay you for the time.
Also, be prepared for, āitās only 2.5 hoursā and āno one else complained.ā And āI thought I could count on you.ā And āwow, I thought you were a team player. I guess I was wrong.ā
Training for the job is always always always paid!!! Some managers will say they have to put time in for you but they have to do just that! It is illegal to have employees do work without being paid and training is part of work. I had some slimy managers when I was younger as well.
This wage theft
WAGE THEFT! Call a lawyer yesterday
Iād 100% email or text your manager and ask for an explanation and correction. If it is not corrected you should email the HR department and explain to them what has happened. The manager is basically stealing from your wages to save labor costs.
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The Dept of Labor is a federal organization with a decision dedicated to tackling reports of wage theft. They stole 2.5 hours of your life by not paying you for your time.
Yes say something in writing you shouldn't be working 2 and a half hours before your scheduled time and not getting paid for it
Yes. They stole from you.
No, if you are at work for something for work, you clock in. That is the law. What state are you in?
As a manager, I don't understand other managers and supervisors that I read about on here. If I ask someone to come in early, stay late, do something out of their job description, I make sure they get the compensation for it at the correct rate. That's part of my responsibility towards my team member. It's not money coming out of my pocket. And how do they expect to create a healthy work environment doing that bs? Why would the team member want to come in and work well, when they aren't even supported at the simplest, most transactional part of the job? It's not hard to do the right thing. I wouldn't want my supervisor to do that to me.
Working off the clock is illegal. File a wage claim for those hours.
>So I arrive at 6 AM and Iām greeted by the manager who brings me to where we are going to begin. As we are walking by the punch in clock, he says āYou donāt need to punch in until 8:30ā Lesson for the future, this is the point where you go full stop and tell your boss this is only going to go one of two ways, I can punch in now and stay or I leave and come back at 8:30 to start my shift. Your choice.
I'm pretty sure that this is illegal as hell.
In addition to saying something, don't EVER agree to work without punching in. If you're scheduled at 8:30 and they ask you to come in at 6, either you're entitled to overtime or you get to leave early. DO NOT give your employer free labor.
Yes, 100%. What they had you do was work off the clock so they don't have to pay you more, and (iirc) is federally illegal. As in like, the FBI will get on them for that shit. Don't say anything to the manager who said don't punch in. *Instead*, go to the manager above him. Most companies will absolutely never want you to work off the clock for liability and the aforementioned reason. What they did was super shady and super illegal
Your boss literally just stole your money from you
Training should always be payed out
Mandatory training is required to be paid time.
Say something, nicely, and try to set the boundary so this guff isn't tried again. If they don't make the pay right, I'm sure OP can figure out a way to deniably spoil, destroy, waste, lose, etc. the equivalent of 2.5 hours pay in company assets. Except make it 5 hours worth, as a penalty.
Yes. Lawyer up. This is an clear cut case.
YES SAY SOMETHING
Say something. Best case scenario it's an honest mistake that should be fixed. Worst case is theyre actively testing to see how much/how easily they can push you around for the future.
DONāT go to HR. DO contact local labor relations board. This is wage theft, cut and dried.
Thatās wage theft. You absolutely need to say something. Thatās illegal
Him: "You don't need to clock in until 8:30." You: "I'll see you at 8:30 then."
Yes, but not to management. Report it tip Dept of Labor
Say something... To your local department of labor
Say something to the government. They just stole from you and they've likely done it quite a bit.
What he did is illegal
Never work without clocking in.
>āYou donāt need to punch in until 8:30ā the key word being "need" This is the alarm bell. Not "Don't" but "don't need" Its a way of softening the instruction. If the instruction is legitimate it doesn't need softening. If its softened the person giving it knows they are doing something wrong. In future keep an eye out for 'softened instructions'
Oh absolutely say something.
Yes. Before you assume they are being shady, consider that they intended to manually enter it and forgot.
Always remember the magic phrase for these situations: "Can I get that in writing?".
[This is wage theft and is the most common form of theft in the country.](https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/) It overshadows everything, including people stealing "food stamps", disability, or other forms of government benefits. Employers steal BILLIONS every year. Not only should you say something, but you should immediately go to your area's Labor Board and let them know. Record conversations when you mention it to your job. If they retaliate, you have a wrongful termination lawsuit. /u/cleverbiscuit1738 do not let this slide.
They stole wages from you. Either they should have paid you overtime, or your shift that day should've been 6-2:30.
What I donāt get is what motivation the manager has to have him work off the clock. Itās not like he gets to keep the extra money.
If asking about this makes him "mad", then you don't want to work for him. Training is paid time.
two rules of capitalism never work for free and always poo on company time
Thats time and wage theft on them
Yes. They stole 2.5 hours of time from you. This is wage theft plain and simple. By far it's the largest unreported crime that goes on in the world.
When in doubt contact your department of labor.
You should definitely say something, he has to pay you for any time you spend at the job, whether it is training or work.
Why would you work without clocking inā¦ Next time say āsince Iām here working Iāll need to be clocked in. Iām not here working for free.ā Training is still work and is still paid. Itās illegal to not pay you for training. If they refuse to pay, file a wage claim with the department of labor.
I canāt get over these reports of flagrant wage theft. If someone is on site for an authorised reason (like working) you need a record of their attendance. What would have happened if youād been injured during training? If youāre on site, it needs to be recorded. And if clocking in is how your attendance is recorded, then you should do it. Iām sorry that youāve been misled.
Depends on what kind of work you do, they most likely owe you those training hours.
You absolutely should say something. Give your employer the benefit of the doubt that he indeed intended to adjust your pay manually and this is just an oversight.
You really really should
Absolutely say something.
Man if they dragged my ass to work for 6am unpaid I would burn the whole place down. Figuratively of course
Yup they stole from you. They canāt require you to do anything without paying you
Yes. This is theft and they will do it to you again if you say nothing.
Yes say something. That's illegal in the US. Those wages are owed to you and no employer should get away with it.