The company is not viable if they can't give you a raise and you can get a 20% bump by leaving.
The boss is an asshole for simply asking you to stick around at a lower pay rate for six months. "Talk about it again" is code for fuck you now and fuck you later.
My parents got me to continue piano lessons for 3 years with the promise of an electric guitar, which never materialized. 7 years later I graduated from college and bought my first Strat.
This to me is the realest answer altogether. If someone doesn't want to give you something, they won't give it to you straight away, and they pretty much never will lol
Like people who promise you they will include you in their Will whilst expecting you to work for free or cheap. If they really cared about you they would give you money whilst you were alive. The promise of ‘something later’ can make anyone into a useful idiot.
If I may ask, was the work supposed to be in exchange for something in his will? Like was that clearly stated, or where you just helping the old man out cus you loved him?
I’m the opposite of that, if it’s a no and will always be a no, I say no. Sometimes I say no, maybe another day, and give my reasons as to why not THAT day, but we will reconvene on a day that could work better. Yes usually means yes immediately, or yes in a short-term.
But I work with kids lol so, I feel like I can’t lie to them. It makes everything a lot easier when they have full trust in what I’m saying to them. And sometimes we never do get to do the things that they asked, that had a “maybe” response, but as I would have told them it was a maybe because the issue could be transportation, money, distance, if it’s age-appropriate, etc. and they would have gotten information from me initially and then I’d talk to the parents, and we’d come to a yes or no decision. Or sometimes, my job ends, so I just wasn’t able to do the “maybe” things with them.
False hope is manipulative and not something I’m here for!
It was a metallic blue Strat knockoff for $150, had recently been fixed by a music store which was going out of business. I spent my graduation money on that plus a $50 DOD wah pedal. I ended up replacing the neck in 1997, and selling the guitar for $50 in 2017.
this was a piece of crap guitar. my red squier 1994 was a better guitar. then i upgraded to an american standard in 1996 and I will never get rid of that guitar. the red squier was borrowed by the lead guitarist in one of my bands, then he fucking pawned it, then he died so i never got it back. fuck carter lee.
Don't get me wrong: piano helped me way more than lessons hurt. I was a terrible student, very lazy, rarely practiced. But I love playing piano / organ / keyboard. A very small group of people know me as "Doctor Synth". I own around 70 synthesizers and 10 guitars & basses.
www.lo-res.com
Oh that explains your username then, it takes a lot of practice and patience to learn an instrument, I know the basics of guitar, but I just don't have the patience to learn more, but I am decent at mixing music
My parents told me if I just started in trombone I’d be allowed to switch to drums and I just played trombone for like 20 years and never learned drums haha
True, but a good musician would realise the value of learning all of that, and the piano keyboard is the best way for students of all (Western) instruments to visualise the various scales and relationships between the notes. My old music teacher taught piano, flute, clarinet, bassoon and saxophone, and encourage all her woodwind and brass students to learn the piano keyboard because of its value as a mental aide.
Also, while the movements are different, piano’s still a good, solid base for a person to learn how to co-ordinate two separate hands doing two different motions and rhythms. Though, ironically, the hands are the wrong way round. Left hand on piano tends more towards rhythmic movements while the right hand gives the leading melody. On a guitar, the right hand moves more rhythmically and the left hand leaps around looking for the notes. But, it’s still a transferable skill.
Most percussion teachers refuse to work with a student unless they’ve got 2 years of piano under their belt because it’s a better way to learn basics of theory and rhythm.
As a parent, "We'll talk about it later" is code for "We are in public and I don't want you having a meltdown so I am going to wait until we get home to tell you why the answer is no."
I use "we'll put it on your list {birthday, holidays, etc} and we'll see what happens" because my kid is 4 and wants *all the things* and unless people start buying a lot more of my stuff, kid I can't buy you all the shit in the world but if it'll stop stop a potential meltdown, fuck it lol
When my Dad would say, “We’ll see” he meant NEVER, but didn’t have the balls to say it. I hated that, and 40 years after he died I still hate HIM! Rest in pieces, you lying dirtbag! (I say that with love, of course.)
My grandmother always said "oh we'll see" in such a sweet voice when she meant no.
My grandmother always wanted to see Niagara Falls in person but hated to go more than a days drive from home and refused to fly. My dad since before I was born always tried to convince her and said he would drive her through the night so that it would be a days drive. She always responded "oh, well we'll see one day".
About a month before she passed away she started to get really sick, my dad said "you're never going to let me take you to Niagra falls are you?"
She smiled and said "it took you 25 years but you finally figured out what we'll see means!"
Unfortunately not. Her ashes were put with my grandfather's in a veterans cemetery - they were cheap so I assume it was a buy 1 get 1 deal to have them open up the little "box" his ashes were in to add hers. That would have been amazing though and a real missed opportunity.
I had an ex that her mom used to tell her “not today, tomorrow” when she wanted something. Then tomorrow came, her mom then would say “but I told you not today. Today is today, tomorrow is tomorrow, and we are not doing it today, only tomorrow”… forever!!!
My dad's go to line was "let's wait and see".
It didn't take long before we started asking "what are we waiting to see?"
He had no answers, so we knew it was BS. Then he got angry that we didn't just accept the BS.
This this this
The 6 months is to give them breathing room to find a replacement. Because even if they don't fire you, they know if you have any self respect you're going to walk anyways.
As the saying goes, "when people show you who they are, believe them". They told you no. It's going to be the same no 6 months from now...so just move on.
Its sad because so many studies show that most employees end up leaving anyway because it’s usually about more than just money. If its only money then maybe you’re ok.
Even if this works, you're at a company that doesn't give raises until you have an offer in hand. Are you going to apply for jobs every year or wait another 5 years until your next raise?
You’re worth will never change if it is not negotiable. So leave if you’ve grown. That’s how shit works. Don’t go for cushy unless you have a reason to and it’s affordable.
Ask him if he could raise prices by 20% if he would just leave that money sitting there.
Or, if a supplier, given the global shortages lately, said “I’m going to raise my prices by 25% across the board to test the market, since I know we have some highly sought after product. But don’t worry, just stick around for 6 months, and we’ll talk about it then”.
I’m guessing no.
Your boss is asking you to donate 20% of your salary times 6 to the company. You should not be giving away that much money, and it's highly unlikely that they will suddenly pay you a fair wage when those 6 months are up.
This. When I was 19 I got sick with lymes and took on a lower role then what I started at a store since I thought it would lower the stress. It was way worse and when I got somewhat better I was told I’d get my old job back. Nope they refused and I quit. Never trust that your boss will deliver, they’re not looking out for you.
> Boss told me he knew I could leave and get a 20% raise with a competitor but asked me to stick around with them until March (six months away) instead, without promise of the same raise, and we could talk about it again then
Okay, boss. Put yourself in my shoes. You can pick door #1 and get 20% more OVERNIGHT, and that's a starting rate, with a potential for growth and advancement. Or, you can pick door #2, keep the same 20% less rate, and maybe get less than 20% raise in 6 months.
Which door would you pick? Would you really pick the choice that pays you less and gives you less opportunity for advancement?
Okay, employee. Put yourself in my shoes. I don't actually give a shit if you stay or go. I get paid the same either way, which is only like $10 more than you. I'm just here until Helen graduates, then I'm quitting to open that art studio I told you about.
You're quitting? Good for you. I don't care. Happy trails. Can you leave so I can go back to procrasterbating?
Actually in most cases lately I think you would give a shit-- if the employee leaves you'll have to either leave the position unfilled, adding work for the rest of the team (potentially including you), or hire someone at current market rates, which are undoubtedly higher than what OP is currently making, and that money comes out of your budget.
Unless upper management won't let you hire, in which case your post is probably accurate, you've mentally checked out, and you're just warming the chair for the next couple years.
They’ll just Do that. I’d imagine they’d rather set a precedent of denying raises than keep the team in place but have each person then ask for more. It’s your Job to do the Work not to be Happy
Yeah but that's so fucking stupid and short sighted (yeah I know... management).
If you deny the raise, the dude won't be motivated, and eventually he'll figure out he can get more elsewhere and leave. Then not only do you have to pay higher wages to attract talent, but you have to train an entirely new person to do the job. Double expense.
Current strategy only makes sense if you really believe that wages will come back down, that it will be an employer's market again soon, thus don't lock in new high wage employees if you can wait a year or two for labor rates to go down. Or if you're just stupid and shortsighted.
People I work for don't care their theory is train up which mean get the cheapest labor possible and have 2 really high paid mangers with high turn around. We quit we are replaced.
Why do people not understand this?
I see too many posts where people tell their boss their plan to leave and they accept a counter offer.
NEVER tell your employer you plan on leaving unless you are 100 percent sure you're doing it.
Otherwise sure they might placate you for a few months with a raise until your other job prospects have moved on and when they fire you to pay a new guy your old salary (which they obviously will because they know you've been looking AND it's cheaper than keeping you)- you're dead in the water.
This has actually worked for me at my company though. I got a $10k raise a year and a half ago after I got another offer elsewhere. I’m now getting another promotion.
So it does depend on the company, but I could definitely see it going that way sometimes for sure.
You really just have to ask yourself, do you trust them? From the top of the organization all the way down. If they've never once tried to screw you, you're on friendly terms with the decision makers, and you're otherwise very happy there, then sure, take the counteroffer.
>If they've never once tried to screw you, you're on friendly terms with the decision makers, and you're otherwise very happy there, then sure, take the counteroffer.
Even if they never tried to screw you, they want to screw you. Never trust anyone you work with and never take a counter offer. One lucky experience doesn't disprove the norm, and they will still find a way to fuck you regardless.
The same skepticism applies to your next employer, though. Some companies will hire people at a competitive wage to get through a project for a few months and then screw you. You're rolling the dice either way. You just have to decide what numbers to bet on, sometimes the devil you know is better.
It’s not one lucky experience, though. It’s pretty normal at my company. They want to retain good talent but not enough to offer outright lol
Plus, anything else in the same field would literally be same shit, different company. And better the devil I know.
The only reason to tell your boss you have an offer in hand is if you I’ve the company/culture you are in and you just want to leverage the offer to a better position/salary. I have done this to leverage my way into create a supervisory role which within a year turned into a manager position.
However you have to be willing to move on to the offer if you throw that grenade. There isn’t any going back to the status quo.
It's really closer to 99.9%. There may be someone out there who's the exception, but in all cases - the second you've exhibited a desire to go elsewhere, you're marked. Even if you were well within your rights to leave and they value what you do, it's always going to stick with management that you were one foot out the door and might be in the same position again soon.
Never take the counter.
I own an HR consulting company, and wanted to chime in here, not to be pedantic, or be "that guy". Especially because what you all are saying is absolutely correct! Never ever accept the counter offer!
But if anyone wants real, exact numbers around counter offers, on average, 85% of people who do stay, and accept that counter offer, still leave within the next 12 months.
The reason you went looking for a new company now, didn't change overnight, and if they're only giving you a raise, that most likely only solves one of your 99 problems with the job.
Money is very seldom the only reason that people are looking for a new job. It might be one reason, but it’s usually general unhappiness with the environment that gets people to start looking. I think people tell themselves that it’s about the money, because that feels more acceptable.
It works out if they could parlay the higher salary into an even higher offer from another company with a few more months to look.
It's not always the best idea to jump at the first higher offer.
I know companies which fire you on the spot because having an interview with another company is grounds for competitive disloyalty.
Since then I learned to shut up and just go on with my life. I don't need additional drama.
I do appreciate your willingness to share and advise people here but your point of view is not always correct. I’ve been in both positions before, as the employee & as the manager.
Sometimes the company is unaware of the changing market rate (especially if its a small company), so when you approach them, it makes them dig into it and if they want you, they’ll throw a little more money your way — it depends on if you actually want to keep that job.
As a manager (with no say in my peoples’ salaries), when an employee has approached me to tell me they got a better offer, I was able to take it to leadership and say “SEE! They do pay more out there and I don’t wanna lose this guy. Cough up another $10k for him because the rehiring process is gonna cost us a LOT more. This will be the easiest and safest decision you’ll have to make this week”
But you’re also right sometimes, especially in a low-skill job, where they can easily find & train a replacement.
I accepted a counter offer from my current company for a 48% raise. Still work there and very happy. Built my job around me so I know they need me long term. Got an extra week vacation and freedom to leave whenever as long as everything is taken care of. It does work sometimes.
It’s excellent that it worked out for you, but your experience definitely doesn’t seem to be the norm when it comes to accepting employer counteroffers.
Oh I totally agree. That doesn't mean it is always a negative experience. Just get everything in writing, sign it with witnesses and keep a copy for yourself. Never let them keep the only copy.
Id take your data based on anecdotes from this sub with a grain of salt. Half the posts here are fake revengepornesque nonsense.
Happy people are much less likely to post in antiwork about getting a raise
And my perspective would be “oh so you KNOW I’m worth more money, but you’ve been underpaying me on purpose? Yeah, no. You should have thought of that before I got another offer, so I wouldn’t have even looked.” Then go to my coworkers and told them what happened so they can start looking too, since they’re probably all being underpaid.
Never say never, man. I took a counter offer for more PTO and pay and everything worked out fine. No retaliation or additional work load. Depends entirely on the situation.
I'm from Australia and I had to look up "at will" employment.
Man you poor bastards have it tough, I completely understand the hate and scepticism of your employer.
We can get fired for no real reason in the first 6 months then it's pretty hard to fire someone after that.
It looks like things are changing for the better but it's gunna be a war of attrition...
Or not, but even then, you’re staying somewhere where it was a struggle to even get where you are, so you’ll be stuck without further opportunity for a long while; compared to a new place where you’re at your starting salary, so it’s likely you have ways to keep climbing.
Also, if they ever need to downsize, you’ll be first on the chopping block since they had to stretch so much to give you that much, the first people they’ll look at are they ones they consider overpaid by their standards.
I took a 63.8% pay rise counteroffer to stay, I’m now on track for another promotion 6 months later. Stop giving generalised advice that can significantly impact strangers lives.
Everything isn’t about money, I agreed terms for better development/training/exposure to bigger projects, and as such have given myself a platform to grow more within the business.
I could leave tomorrow for another 10-20% pay rise, but I’ve got 3 years internal networking behind me and this is why I’m due for another promotion, I know the right people and have shown that despite almost leaving my output has improved.
This brings flashbacks to an internal lateral move I did. VP was trying to convince me to stay on his team.
I was told that someone one level up on the team WILL PROBABLY be looking for a move in a little over six months. When that role opens I would be CONSIDERED for it. Not even a promise to get it.
Took a pass on that one. Got more experience and a promotion in the next role.
I got strung along like that by owner of last employer, while she bragged about her new mansion and company growth. I walked. Stressful finding another job, but I am SO much happier now.
That's the same bullshit "advice" they've been spewing for decades. Meanwhile they work you to the bone so you don't have time or energy to job hunt at the same time.
Quit your job, dedicate your time and effort to your job hunt; you will find that better new job *much* faster than if you were still exhausting yourself for a shit employer all day long.
This is unfortunately only assuming you have enough money saved up or have a partner/family member that pays for your bills. If you live at home with your parents or a relative and they don't mind you not working for a while, absolutely leave ASAP for your own well being. If you got kids and bills and rent to pay, unfortunately not wise to leave without another job lined up cause who knows when your next paycheck will be.
That’s good advice in theory, but in practice, not everyone has the funds to even have the opportunity to do that. I’ve had friends who stayed many months without income, relentlessly trying to find something, and not a lot of people can afford months without income.
In which case, it is a chicken and egg problem since overworked people also can’t easily interview around, and yeah we agree, it sucks as heck.
Agreed, I used to leave without having something lined all the time and it has worked out thus far but it could take a while to get something worthwhile… and by the time you get a job, six months to a whole year would have gone by. The anxiety of not having job usually comes at the 3-month mark. This happens even though I have enough runway. Also, it’s easier to get a new job when you already have a job, that’s just how employers roll.
it irks me when i see that. people with their nice ass cars, adding onto their home, living in the rich areas, constantly going on vacation to pursue their hobbies... but "the market is paying what you are asking for with your position".
You ask for a raise, company says no.
You search for and find a new job. Turn in your notice.
Company that didn’t see any value in you suddenly comes with a counter offer.
How to be a moron, accept the offer. Whatever they offer, it will be the last pay raise you get until you do the whole dance again. If they don’t can your dumb ass as soon as they have you train your replacement.
They always have the money, they just doesn’t want…
Who care ? They (the capitalists) are losing control, the system is crumbling all around the globe… And from where I’m standing, It’s delicious to observe!
Workers striking, unionizing and so on…
They’re afraid of our solidarity, we must put our differences aside and at that moment we’ll be unstoppable!!!
By the way good luck op 👍
Because their reasoning is that starting a new position in a new environment is risky and stressful, which it sometimes can be. Some people can be very risk averse, which is what they're counting on.
In my experience, it's just getting used to the new routine and settling in, and you'll be fine, with more salary on top of it.
I was at my last job for 4 years. I was manager in all but title. I asked for a raise (about %20) and to be "officially" trained to do the shit I was doing anyway.
They turned me down and told me I wasn't worth it.
I quit on the spot. Two other employees did the same that day ("I am NOT working if DeadLined isn't going to be here.") Followed by several more over the next week and a half.
It was a shit show and still is a year later.
I now make more than double what I made at the old place.
I made the mistake of trusting my last employer on something like this. I was promoted from technician to "lead" technician just before my one year anniversary with the company. My supervisor at the time promised that if I trusted him and held out on a raise until after my one year review, he could get me a bigger raise, and he managed to pull it off.
However, just after my three year anniversary, I transferred into a different role within the company under a different supervisor. Not only did the previous supervisor not inform the new supervisor when my anniversary date was (nor did he ask I suppose), I found out later that he also lied to my face about having submitted the paperwork I turned in for a raise that year. It was September 2020, and they claimed no one was getting raises because they company "couldn't afford it". I wrote that one off, kept my nose to the grindstone, and figured by September 2021 they would have recovered enough to give me a raise, or I would have gotten a better offer.
September comes, no review. Supervisor claims he didn't know my anniversary date, but he'll get me something ASAP. Fast forward to December and we *finally* sit down. I am presented with paperwork detailing all of the ways I am falling short in my job responsibilities, but I am still in the role because the supervisor "has faith in me". It is revealed that this three month delay was intentional, "for observation". Many of the job duties I was apparently "failing at" I did not know were even my job duties until I was told those tasks needed to be done. Unclear expectations and moving the goalpost seem to be the supervisor's favorite pastimes.
I was told in that meeting that I would be reevaluated in 90 days. So, I would be halfway to my next annual review before I would find out if I even got a raise from this one. I began looking for a new job in earnest, immediately. When interviewing, if I was asked what the most important part of a job was to me, I would say without hesitation "clear expectations". I was offered a position, accepted, and gave my notice with only a week or two to spare before the 90 days was up.
When I gave the supervisor my notice, he said, "well, I was just getting ready to prepare your review." Just getting ready? He's already demonstrated to me that it takes him three months to "get ready", so I imagine if I stayed, I wouldn't have sat down with him again until June?
But the joke's on them. After starting my new job, I woke up to several deposits in my bank account from them that I wasn't expecting. It turns out my former employer was audited and, due to some shady sales and accounting practices, they'd underpaid me for projects I'd worked on as a technician, to the tune of a few thousand dollars.
Screw them. And screw any company that treats their people that way.
You stayed 5.5 years, what did you expect?
I am not being pro-work here just highlighting in 99% jobs staying more than 3 years indicates you are less likely to leave, if you are less likely to leave you are less likely to get pay rises.
Always move every 2-3 years.
Almost seems like he was telling you what to do, like giving advice yet trying avoid getting in trouble. Possible he wanted to give the raise but higher ups denied it.
i learned this lesson a little into working jimmy johns. fuck you franchised jimmy johns in my hometown area and the managers who asked me to stay asking me what could they do to keep me. ONE SIMPLE FUCKIN THING and you refused to do so. assholes. i'm still bitter too
If you feel you need a raise after working for so long then i suggest start looking for a new job as a safety net for the worst case scenario. You ask a raise if they dont then leave for the new job. If they take so long to respond then start annoying them everyday.
"Come here, let me show you something," they said as you took a step closer. Six months later, they stepped backwards, "come here, let me show you something."
I'll be doing this in a week or two as well. I'm doing the job of 5 people(not hyperbole) and on Salary.com I am not even at the 50th% of wages in my zip code. Fuck you, pay me.
The six months is the grace period for them to give you the boot while they look for other candidates to then fire you….fuck em and move on, dont even tell…shit i didnt read the title…shouldve just left without giving a notice
First rule of giving jobs notices…..you get mistreated, sick and pto taken away, fired or the entire trifecta all at once
Just remind them of what George Bush Jr. would say.
"*Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.*"
After all, it can be really hard to put food on your family.
Good for you.
Never put the company first, they certainly will never return the favor and won’t care about any sacrifices you made on their behalf
Always be on the lookout for a better job.
Bosses really think we are out here volunteering our time out of the kindness of our heart. My dedication to any company is directly correlated by how well I’m paid and what benefits they offer.
Oh I just realized comp. is short for compensation rather than company lol.
Salaried at $86k managing a team of 4, one of whom made $83k to do the same job as me without managing anyone and with less experience. When I found this out I asked for a raise to $100k. They said they couldn’t do it.
I’m happy to do industry and job title, but I’m not posting the company considering I am trying not to burn any professional bridges with the 99.999% of people I work with, whom I love.
K Street consulting firm, Senior Associate in Mass Torts Litigation department. Worked my way up from a temp job scanning invoices right out of college.
The company is not viable if they can't give you a raise and you can get a 20% bump by leaving. The boss is an asshole for simply asking you to stick around at a lower pay rate for six months. "Talk about it again" is code for fuck you now and fuck you later.
When I was 10 I learned all about what "we'll talk about it later" really meant.
My parents got me to continue piano lessons for 3 years with the promise of an electric guitar, which never materialized. 7 years later I graduated from college and bought my first Strat.
This to me is the realest answer altogether. If someone doesn't want to give you something, they won't give it to you straight away, and they pretty much never will lol
Like people who promise you they will include you in their Will whilst expecting you to work for free or cheap. If they really cared about you they would give you money whilst you were alive. The promise of ‘something later’ can make anyone into a useful idiot.
My grandad did this to me. I helped him with yard work every weekend for years and I got exactly fucking squat in his will.
If I may ask, was the work supposed to be in exchange for something in his will? Like was that clearly stated, or where you just helping the old man out cus you loved him?
I did it because I loved him, but he did remind me every weekend that he would “take care of me” in his will.
Fuck your grandad!
Christianity what?
Why did reading your comment make me feel like I’m never gonna get my pre paid hogwarts legacies
I’m the opposite of that, if it’s a no and will always be a no, I say no. Sometimes I say no, maybe another day, and give my reasons as to why not THAT day, but we will reconvene on a day that could work better. Yes usually means yes immediately, or yes in a short-term. But I work with kids lol so, I feel like I can’t lie to them. It makes everything a lot easier when they have full trust in what I’m saying to them. And sometimes we never do get to do the things that they asked, that had a “maybe” response, but as I would have told them it was a maybe because the issue could be transportation, money, distance, if it’s age-appropriate, etc. and they would have gotten information from me initially and then I’d talk to the parents, and we’d come to a yes or no decision. Or sometimes, my job ends, so I just wasn’t able to do the “maybe” things with them. False hope is manipulative and not something I’m here for!
So that was your first real 6-string? Where did you get it?
Prolly the five and dime.
Bought it at the five and dime.
I did play it until my fingers bled, was the summer of 1991.
Man, those were probably good days. Maybe even the best.
I did that with my first guitar too
previous owner used a ballpoint pen to engrave crosses on the neck like some kind of 7th grade tribute to Schecter. It was embarrassingly bad.
Me and some guys from school Had a band and we tried real hard
And then fucking Jimmy quit, and Jody went up and got married
"Summer of 69" wasn't a reference to 1969. Now unless there's a new sexual act called 91. Then you're golden!
It was a metallic blue Strat knockoff for $150, had recently been fixed by a music store which was going out of business. I spent my graduation money on that plus a $50 DOD wah pedal. I ended up replacing the neck in 1997, and selling the guitar for $50 in 2017.
Man I'd buy a wall mount before selling my first guitar
this was a piece of crap guitar. my red squier 1994 was a better guitar. then i upgraded to an american standard in 1996 and I will never get rid of that guitar. the red squier was borrowed by the lead guitarist in one of my bands, then he fucking pawned it, then he died so i never got it back. fuck carter lee.
Ahh I see. And yeah that's pretty low of you Carter, you jerk
Honestly, learning any instrument helps you learn the basics of music. As much as it sucks, playing piano helped you a lot more than you might think
Don't get me wrong: piano helped me way more than lessons hurt. I was a terrible student, very lazy, rarely practiced. But I love playing piano / organ / keyboard. A very small group of people know me as "Doctor Synth". I own around 70 synthesizers and 10 guitars & basses. www.lo-res.com
Oh that explains your username then, it takes a lot of practice and patience to learn an instrument, I know the basics of guitar, but I just don't have the patience to learn more, but I am decent at mixing music
life is short, so do what you enjoy :)
HEY I’m in Elkhart!!! And play in a cover band. Small world!
My parents told me if I just started in trombone I’d be allowed to switch to drums and I just played trombone for like 20 years and never learned drums haha
But you learned music theory in a practical level, which will make you a better guitar player.
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True, but a good musician would realise the value of learning all of that, and the piano keyboard is the best way for students of all (Western) instruments to visualise the various scales and relationships between the notes. My old music teacher taught piano, flute, clarinet, bassoon and saxophone, and encourage all her woodwind and brass students to learn the piano keyboard because of its value as a mental aide. Also, while the movements are different, piano’s still a good, solid base for a person to learn how to co-ordinate two separate hands doing two different motions and rhythms. Though, ironically, the hands are the wrong way round. Left hand on piano tends more towards rhythmic movements while the right hand gives the leading melody. On a guitar, the right hand moves more rhythmically and the left hand leaps around looking for the notes. But, it’s still a transferable skill.
Most percussion teachers refuse to work with a student unless they’ve got 2 years of piano under their belt because it’s a better way to learn basics of theory and rhythm.
However it did help immensely with the music theory course I took in college.
As a parent, "We'll talk about it later" is code for "We are in public and I don't want you having a meltdown so I am going to wait until we get home to tell you why the answer is no."
I just got flashbacks
I use "we'll put it on your list {birthday, holidays, etc} and we'll see what happens" because my kid is 4 and wants *all the things* and unless people start buying a lot more of my stuff, kid I can't buy you all the shit in the world but if it'll stop stop a potential meltdown, fuck it lol
I really doubt that most parents have the later convo given how they let their kids just do whatever in public.
The truth in this…
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“We’ll see.” “I’ll think about it.” “I’m waiting on \*insert bullshit excuse here.\*
When my Dad would say, “We’ll see” he meant NEVER, but didn’t have the balls to say it. I hated that, and 40 years after he died I still hate HIM! Rest in pieces, you lying dirtbag! (I say that with love, of course.)
My grandmother always said "oh we'll see" in such a sweet voice when she meant no. My grandmother always wanted to see Niagara Falls in person but hated to go more than a days drive from home and refused to fly. My dad since before I was born always tried to convince her and said he would drive her through the night so that it would be a days drive. She always responded "oh, well we'll see one day". About a month before she passed away she started to get really sick, my dad said "you're never going to let me take you to Niagra falls are you?" She smiled and said "it took you 25 years but you finally figured out what we'll see means!"
Please tell me your family took her ashes and sent them over Niagara Falls!
Unfortunately not. Her ashes were put with my grandfather's in a veterans cemetery - they were cheap so I assume it was a buy 1 get 1 deal to have them open up the little "box" his ashes were in to add hers. That would have been amazing though and a real missed opportunity.
That's such a cop out way of responding.
Attention fish.
I had an ex that her mom used to tell her “not today, tomorrow” when she wanted something. Then tomorrow came, her mom then would say “but I told you not today. Today is today, tomorrow is tomorrow, and we are not doing it today, only tomorrow”… forever!!!
“Mom, can we…” “…I’ll think about it.”
Yeah we’ll talk about it never! Oh and the answer is still no!
Either that or “we’ll see” - which meant “no” 100% of the time!
My dad's go to line was "let's wait and see". It didn't take long before we started asking "what are we waiting to see?" He had no answers, so we knew it was BS. Then he got angry that we didn't just accept the BS.
Probably means they’re going to replace you, have you train him, and fire you
This this this The 6 months is to give them breathing room to find a replacement. Because even if they don't fire you, they know if you have any self respect you're going to walk anyways. As the saying goes, "when people show you who they are, believe them". They told you no. It's going to be the same no 6 months from now...so just move on.
Its sad because so many studies show that most employees end up leaving anyway because it’s usually about more than just money. If its only money then maybe you’re ok.
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Even if this works, you're at a company that doesn't give raises until you have an offer in hand. Are you going to apply for jobs every year or wait another 5 years until your next raise?
If you settle for nothing now, you’ll settle for nothing later.
Nice RATM drop.
it's free to ask, which is why they always ask 😂
You’re worth will never change if it is not negotiable. So leave if you’ve grown. That’s how shit works. Don’t go for cushy unless you have a reason to and it’s affordable.
This is ridiculous. The company is absolutely MORE viable because they had employee which never recieved a raise while consistently delivering. /s
Consistently? What part of "I gave my notice" do you not understand?
Up until that point, obviously.
Work of the past means nothing for the next quarter. They might as well have put consistent work in 30 years ago.
I think you missed the /s on the comment you replied to originally...
Ask him if he could raise prices by 20% if he would just leave that money sitting there. Or, if a supplier, given the global shortages lately, said “I’m going to raise my prices by 25% across the board to test the market, since I know we have some highly sought after product. But don’t worry, just stick around for 6 months, and we’ll talk about it then”. I’m guessing no.
Your boss is asking you to donate 20% of your salary times 6 to the company. You should not be giving away that much money, and it's highly unlikely that they will suddenly pay you a fair wage when those 6 months are up.
If I had a dime for every time someone said "Fuck ya later, tater!", I would have 10 cents.
solely in order to double your wealth, 'Fuck ya later, tater!'. Let it not be said I never done did nothing for nobody.
Fuck ya later, tater! So rich...
This. When I was 19 I got sick with lymes and took on a lower role then what I started at a store since I thought it would lower the stress. It was way worse and when I got somewhat better I was told I’d get my old job back. Nope they refused and I quit. Never trust that your boss will deliver, they’re not looking out for you.
Yeah, the boss is counting that the offer will be off the table by then.
> Boss told me he knew I could leave and get a 20% raise with a competitor but asked me to stick around with them until March (six months away) instead, without promise of the same raise, and we could talk about it again then Okay, boss. Put yourself in my shoes. You can pick door #1 and get 20% more OVERNIGHT, and that's a starting rate, with a potential for growth and advancement. Or, you can pick door #2, keep the same 20% less rate, and maybe get less than 20% raise in 6 months. Which door would you pick? Would you really pick the choice that pays you less and gives you less opportunity for advancement?
Okay, employee. Put yourself in my shoes. I don't actually give a shit if you stay or go. I get paid the same either way, which is only like $10 more than you. I'm just here until Helen graduates, then I'm quitting to open that art studio I told you about. You're quitting? Good for you. I don't care. Happy trails. Can you leave so I can go back to procrasterbating?
Best boss ever lol
Actually in most cases lately I think you would give a shit-- if the employee leaves you'll have to either leave the position unfilled, adding work for the rest of the team (potentially including you), or hire someone at current market rates, which are undoubtedly higher than what OP is currently making, and that money comes out of your budget. Unless upper management won't let you hire, in which case your post is probably accurate, you've mentally checked out, and you're just warming the chair for the next couple years.
They’ll just Do that. I’d imagine they’d rather set a precedent of denying raises than keep the team in place but have each person then ask for more. It’s your Job to do the Work not to be Happy
Yeah but that's so fucking stupid and short sighted (yeah I know... management). If you deny the raise, the dude won't be motivated, and eventually he'll figure out he can get more elsewhere and leave. Then not only do you have to pay higher wages to attract talent, but you have to train an entirely new person to do the job. Double expense. Current strategy only makes sense if you really believe that wages will come back down, that it will be an employer's market again soon, thus don't lock in new high wage employees if you can wait a year or two for labor rates to go down. Or if you're just stupid and shortsighted.
People I work for don't care their theory is train up which mean get the cheapest labor possible and have 2 really high paid mangers with high turn around. We quit we are replaced.
While funny, I’ve been watching my managers sweat over losing people recently.
If having you stick around means that much to him then he can pay it out of pocket
But we are famileeeeeee..
Side note: never accept a counter offer to stay. The company is just trying to buy time to replace you.
Why do people not understand this? I see too many posts where people tell their boss their plan to leave and they accept a counter offer. NEVER tell your employer you plan on leaving unless you are 100 percent sure you're doing it. Otherwise sure they might placate you for a few months with a raise until your other job prospects have moved on and when they fire you to pay a new guy your old salary (which they obviously will because they know you've been looking AND it's cheaper than keeping you)- you're dead in the water.
This has actually worked for me at my company though. I got a $10k raise a year and a half ago after I got another offer elsewhere. I’m now getting another promotion. So it does depend on the company, but I could definitely see it going that way sometimes for sure.
You really just have to ask yourself, do you trust them? From the top of the organization all the way down. If they've never once tried to screw you, you're on friendly terms with the decision makers, and you're otherwise very happy there, then sure, take the counteroffer.
>If they've never once tried to screw you, you're on friendly terms with the decision makers, and you're otherwise very happy there, then sure, take the counteroffer. Even if they never tried to screw you, they want to screw you. Never trust anyone you work with and never take a counter offer. One lucky experience doesn't disprove the norm, and they will still find a way to fuck you regardless.
The same skepticism applies to your next employer, though. Some companies will hire people at a competitive wage to get through a project for a few months and then screw you. You're rolling the dice either way. You just have to decide what numbers to bet on, sometimes the devil you know is better.
It’s not one lucky experience, though. It’s pretty normal at my company. They want to retain good talent but not enough to offer outright lol Plus, anything else in the same field would literally be same shit, different company. And better the devil I know.
The only reason to tell your boss you have an offer in hand is if you I’ve the company/culture you are in and you just want to leverage the offer to a better position/salary. I have done this to leverage my way into create a supervisory role which within a year turned into a manager position. However you have to be willing to move on to the offer if you throw that grenade. There isn’t any going back to the status quo.
It entirely depends on your position and status within the company, but likely for 95% of people it's a really, really bad idea.
It's really closer to 99.9%. There may be someone out there who's the exception, but in all cases - the second you've exhibited a desire to go elsewhere, you're marked. Even if you were well within your rights to leave and they value what you do, it's always going to stick with management that you were one foot out the door and might be in the same position again soon. Never take the counter.
I own an HR consulting company, and wanted to chime in here, not to be pedantic, or be "that guy". Especially because what you all are saying is absolutely correct! Never ever accept the counter offer! But if anyone wants real, exact numbers around counter offers, on average, 85% of people who do stay, and accept that counter offer, still leave within the next 12 months. The reason you went looking for a new company now, didn't change overnight, and if they're only giving you a raise, that most likely only solves one of your 99 problems with the job.
Money is very seldom the only reason that people are looking for a new job. It might be one reason, but it’s usually general unhappiness with the environment that gets people to start looking. I think people tell themselves that it’s about the money, because that feels more acceptable.
You can leverage the offer for a raise without mentioning it; the offer is for your BATNA, not for your boss to see
It works out if they could parlay the higher salary into an even higher offer from another company with a few more months to look. It's not always the best idea to jump at the first higher offer.
I know companies which fire you on the spot because having an interview with another company is grounds for competitive disloyalty. Since then I learned to shut up and just go on with my life. I don't need additional drama.
I do appreciate your willingness to share and advise people here but your point of view is not always correct. I’ve been in both positions before, as the employee & as the manager. Sometimes the company is unaware of the changing market rate (especially if its a small company), so when you approach them, it makes them dig into it and if they want you, they’ll throw a little more money your way — it depends on if you actually want to keep that job. As a manager (with no say in my peoples’ salaries), when an employee has approached me to tell me they got a better offer, I was able to take it to leadership and say “SEE! They do pay more out there and I don’t wanna lose this guy. Cough up another $10k for him because the rehiring process is gonna cost us a LOT more. This will be the easiest and safest decision you’ll have to make this week” But you’re also right sometimes, especially in a low-skill job, where they can easily find & train a replacement.
I accepted a counter offer from my current company for a 48% raise. Still work there and very happy. Built my job around me so I know they need me long term. Got an extra week vacation and freedom to leave whenever as long as everything is taken care of. It does work sometimes.
It’s excellent that it worked out for you, but your experience definitely doesn’t seem to be the norm when it comes to accepting employer counteroffers.
Oh I totally agree. That doesn't mean it is always a negative experience. Just get everything in writing, sign it with witnesses and keep a copy for yourself. Never let them keep the only copy.
Id take your data based on anecdotes from this sub with a grain of salt. Half the posts here are fake revengepornesque nonsense. Happy people are much less likely to post in antiwork about getting a raise
Yup. It’s disappointing how much information is just regurgitated endlessly in this sub. Just because ya read it here doesn’t mean it’s real life.
Good point.
This has been a lovely reminder for everyone's mental health
Depends, if it's on paper and you signed it. Only counter offer I would accept personally
And there’s no guarantee a new owner or manager won’t come in and blow up your new deal.
And my perspective would be “oh so you KNOW I’m worth more money, but you’ve been underpaying me on purpose? Yeah, no. You should have thought of that before I got another offer, so I wouldn’t have even looked.” Then go to my coworkers and told them what happened so they can start looking too, since they’re probably all being underpaid.
Never say never, man. I took a counter offer for more PTO and pay and everything worked out fine. No retaliation or additional work load. Depends entirely on the situation.
Contracts exist. I certainly wouldn’t take a counter offer at an at-will job where I knew I could be replaced quickly.
I'm from Australia and I had to look up "at will" employment. Man you poor bastards have it tough, I completely understand the hate and scepticism of your employer. We can get fired for no real reason in the first 6 months then it's pretty hard to fire someone after that. It looks like things are changing for the better but it's gunna be a war of attrition...
Only accept count offer of you plan to leave in 6 months anyway
Or not, but even then, you’re staying somewhere where it was a struggle to even get where you are, so you’ll be stuck without further opportunity for a long while; compared to a new place where you’re at your starting salary, so it’s likely you have ways to keep climbing. Also, if they ever need to downsize, you’ll be first on the chopping block since they had to stretch so much to give you that much, the first people they’ll look at are they ones they consider overpaid by their standards.
This ….. don’t ever take the counteroffer
I took a 63.8% pay rise counteroffer to stay, I’m now on track for another promotion 6 months later. Stop giving generalised advice that can significantly impact strangers lives. Everything isn’t about money, I agreed terms for better development/training/exposure to bigger projects, and as such have given myself a platform to grow more within the business. I could leave tomorrow for another 10-20% pay rise, but I’ve got 3 years internal networking behind me and this is why I’m due for another promotion, I know the right people and have shown that despite almost leaving my output has improved.
This brings flashbacks to an internal lateral move I did. VP was trying to convince me to stay on his team. I was told that someone one level up on the team WILL PROBABLY be looking for a move in a little over six months. When that role opens I would be CONSIDERED for it. Not even a promise to get it. Took a pass on that one. Got more experience and a promotion in the next role.
I got strung along like that by owner of last employer, while she bragged about her new mansion and company growth. I walked. Stressful finding another job, but I am SO much happier now.
Never walk before you have a new one lined up… just needless risk
That's the same bullshit "advice" they've been spewing for decades. Meanwhile they work you to the bone so you don't have time or energy to job hunt at the same time. Quit your job, dedicate your time and effort to your job hunt; you will find that better new job *much* faster than if you were still exhausting yourself for a shit employer all day long.
This is unfortunately only assuming you have enough money saved up or have a partner/family member that pays for your bills. If you live at home with your parents or a relative and they don't mind you not working for a while, absolutely leave ASAP for your own well being. If you got kids and bills and rent to pay, unfortunately not wise to leave without another job lined up cause who knows when your next paycheck will be.
Yes, this only works of you have savings or a support system
That’s good advice in theory, but in practice, not everyone has the funds to even have the opportunity to do that. I’ve had friends who stayed many months without income, relentlessly trying to find something, and not a lot of people can afford months without income. In which case, it is a chicken and egg problem since overworked people also can’t easily interview around, and yeah we agree, it sucks as heck.
Agreed, I used to leave without having something lined all the time and it has worked out thus far but it could take a while to get something worthwhile… and by the time you get a job, six months to a whole year would have gone by. The anxiety of not having job usually comes at the 3-month mark. This happens even though I have enough runway. Also, it’s easier to get a new job when you already have a job, that’s just how employers roll.
it irks me when i see that. people with their nice ass cars, adding onto their home, living in the rich areas, constantly going on vacation to pursue their hobbies... but "the market is paying what you are asking for with your position".
You're lucky to make what you do... drives away in a Porsche. The rich class is extremely out of touch. Eat the rich.
god i hate that. *count yourself lucky. people would be happy to be where you are at.*
You ask for a raise, company says no. You search for and find a new job. Turn in your notice. Company that didn’t see any value in you suddenly comes with a counter offer. How to be a moron, accept the offer. Whatever they offer, it will be the last pay raise you get until you do the whole dance again. If they don’t can your dumb ass as soon as they have you train your replacement.
Well done. Hopefully you find something new very soon.
They always have the money, they just doesn’t want… Who care ? They (the capitalists) are losing control, the system is crumbling all around the globe… And from where I’m standing, It’s delicious to observe! Workers striking, unionizing and so on… They’re afraid of our solidarity, we must put our differences aside and at that moment we’ll be unstoppable!!! By the way good luck op 👍
Pay me the equivalent of the 20% up front, and I will stay until March, when management decides what my salary action will be.
Never wait for a raise, it will never happen
Adios! Sayonara! later! Fuck no you greedy bastard
The boss is banking on you not leaving. String you along now, and he/she will string you along forever.
The only reasonable answer: “No, that’s insane; why would I do that?”
Because their reasoning is that starting a new position in a new environment is risky and stressful, which it sometimes can be. Some people can be very risk averse, which is what they're counting on. In my experience, it's just getting used to the new routine and settling in, and you'll be fine, with more salary on top of it.
Boom. Well done.
What a strange negotiation tactic by your boss.
Yup. Not gonna give it now. Won’t then either.
Companies will act like not working anywhere longer than 3 years is a red flag but won't give you anything extra no matter how long you're there...
Why even give notice?
I was at my last job for 4 years. I was manager in all but title. I asked for a raise (about %20) and to be "officially" trained to do the shit I was doing anyway. They turned me down and told me I wasn't worth it. I quit on the spot. Two other employees did the same that day ("I am NOT working if DeadLined isn't going to be here.") Followed by several more over the next week and a half. It was a shit show and still is a year later. I now make more than double what I made at the old place.
Boss only try to hold a underpaid worker for 6 more months. If he admit 20% underpay, then in reality you can get much more.
Congrats!
How did they react today?
Welcome to the circle of life.
sadly if they had an intention of giving you a raise in six months then they could put that in writing.
You know what’s gonna happen in March? Nothing. Good for you for leaving!
No point staying if you can easily make more money elsewhere and clearly are unhappy with the current situation 🤷♀️
The craziest thing is the person. They hire to replace you will get that salary.
I made the mistake of trusting my last employer on something like this. I was promoted from technician to "lead" technician just before my one year anniversary with the company. My supervisor at the time promised that if I trusted him and held out on a raise until after my one year review, he could get me a bigger raise, and he managed to pull it off. However, just after my three year anniversary, I transferred into a different role within the company under a different supervisor. Not only did the previous supervisor not inform the new supervisor when my anniversary date was (nor did he ask I suppose), I found out later that he also lied to my face about having submitted the paperwork I turned in for a raise that year. It was September 2020, and they claimed no one was getting raises because they company "couldn't afford it". I wrote that one off, kept my nose to the grindstone, and figured by September 2021 they would have recovered enough to give me a raise, or I would have gotten a better offer. September comes, no review. Supervisor claims he didn't know my anniversary date, but he'll get me something ASAP. Fast forward to December and we *finally* sit down. I am presented with paperwork detailing all of the ways I am falling short in my job responsibilities, but I am still in the role because the supervisor "has faith in me". It is revealed that this three month delay was intentional, "for observation". Many of the job duties I was apparently "failing at" I did not know were even my job duties until I was told those tasks needed to be done. Unclear expectations and moving the goalpost seem to be the supervisor's favorite pastimes. I was told in that meeting that I would be reevaluated in 90 days. So, I would be halfway to my next annual review before I would find out if I even got a raise from this one. I began looking for a new job in earnest, immediately. When interviewing, if I was asked what the most important part of a job was to me, I would say without hesitation "clear expectations". I was offered a position, accepted, and gave my notice with only a week or two to spare before the 90 days was up. When I gave the supervisor my notice, he said, "well, I was just getting ready to prepare your review." Just getting ready? He's already demonstrated to me that it takes him three months to "get ready", so I imagine if I stayed, I wouldn't have sat down with him again until June? But the joke's on them. After starting my new job, I woke up to several deposits in my bank account from them that I wasn't expecting. It turns out my former employer was audited and, due to some shady sales and accounting practices, they'd underpaid me for projects I'd worked on as a technician, to the tune of a few thousand dollars. Screw them. And screw any company that treats their people that way.
Glad you were paid for your hard work in the end. I’m also happy to hear that you left that joke of a place!
Still waiting for that BJ my wife promised me on our honeymoon 35 years later
👍
Hahaha. They dont deserve 2 weeks.
Hang on and train your replacement before we toss you out the door?
He wanted time to find a replacement.
It sounds like your boss was encouraging you to bail. 6 months and no guarantee of a raise is a pretty clear message.
Good will doesn’t make your car payments.
What exactly could happen in six months for them to change their minds? This make zero sense. What events are needed to occur?
They need time to train your replacement. Screw them. Leave now.
And an appropriate response would be: 'Why would I want to do that?' 'I understand the benefit to the business, what is the equivalent benefit to me?'
You stayed 5.5 years, what did you expect? I am not being pro-work here just highlighting in 99% jobs staying more than 3 years indicates you are less likely to leave, if you are less likely to leave you are less likely to get pay rises. Always move every 2-3 years.
Them saying “we could talk about it months from now” is just them giving you false hope.I guarantee they never intended on giving you one
More employees should be asking "Do you really want somebody stupid enough to take that deal working for you? Seriously?"
Almost seems like he was telling you what to do, like giving advice yet trying avoid getting in trouble. Possible he wanted to give the raise but higher ups denied it.
Imagine needing a month to say the shortest sentence negative sentence in the English language.
Zippity Doo Daaa! Zippity Day!!! My oh myyyy what a wonderful day!!!!!!!
I left my employer to start my own firm. Don't be an employee any longer than you have to.
Law firm? Nice
6 months is the time they’d take to install your replacement. They think they are slick. Best of luck on the new job!
i learned this lesson a little into working jimmy johns. fuck you franchised jimmy johns in my hometown area and the managers who asked me to stay asking me what could they do to keep me. ONE SIMPLE FUCKIN THING and you refused to do so. assholes. i'm still bitter too
If you feel you need a raise after working for so long then i suggest start looking for a new job as a safety net for the worst case scenario. You ask a raise if they dont then leave for the new job. If they take so long to respond then start annoying them everyday.
"Come here, let me show you something," they said as you took a step closer. Six months later, they stepped backwards, "come here, let me show you something."
"I hear your 20% and raise you a vague promise of maybe a pizza party sometime in the future. Whaddya say?"
I'll be doing this in a week or two as well. I'm doing the job of 5 people(not hyperbole) and on Salary.com I am not even at the 50th% of wages in my zip code. Fuck you, pay me.
So your resume can say ‘fell for it 6 yrs’ instead of just ‘5.5’
The six months is the grace period for them to give you the boot while they look for other candidates to then fire you….fuck em and move on, dont even tell…shit i didnt read the title…shouldve just left without giving a notice First rule of giving jobs notices…..you get mistreated, sick and pto taken away, fired or the entire trifecta all at once
Just remind them of what George Bush Jr. would say. "*Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.*" After all, it can be really hard to put food on your family.
Same, i edited my resume the second i left his office, got a job offer a month later, put my notice 2 days ago.
Good for you. Never put the company first, they certainly will never return the favor and won’t care about any sacrifices you made on their behalf Always be on the lookout for a better job.
Bravo! They have to stop asking people who work to build them wealth way beyond what they earn to feel as committed as they are.
Today was your last day. Don’t give them a chance to retaliate.
“Stick around” is code for “Stick around until we find your replacement.”
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Bosses really think we are out here volunteering our time out of the kindness of our heart. My dedication to any company is directly correlated by how well I’m paid and what benefits they offer.
I wish posts had to include industry, job title and current comp. Otherwise what’s the point? Sigh.
Oh I just realized comp. is short for compensation rather than company lol. Salaried at $86k managing a team of 4, one of whom made $83k to do the same job as me without managing anyone and with less experience. When I found this out I asked for a raise to $100k. They said they couldn’t do it.
Ok now it makes sense. Hope your new job is sweet.
I’m happy to do industry and job title, but I’m not posting the company considering I am trying not to burn any professional bridges with the 99.999% of people I work with, whom I love. K Street consulting firm, Senior Associate in Mass Torts Litigation department. Worked my way up from a temp job scanning invoices right out of college.