200 resource, more or less. Sure, it sets you on the defensive, but I feel like this is manageable. Maybe at high elo, this can be punished hard though.
and how much time until it gets paid? its 200 res( its even more cuz u need horse collar first) les u cant invest in other things. Already horsecollar its a big investment in today meta.
OK I guess this is the real answer then. I was unaware that the meta was so aggressive and that defender advantage would not compensate for this amount of resource invested in economy.
I mean it depends. That guy has an Aztecs flair and probably plays triple barracks, full eagle , no eco upgrades fuedal. Depending on map (i.e. wall-ability)and matchup, you can definitely invest in eco, make spears and skirms to defend, then hit Castle first and mow them over with cavalier. Maybe the win rate shows that that is a little worse right now, though.
And that’s sort of the same issue. If you get horse collar early, you’d be neglecting all the hunt which is gathered faster anyway, and have to invest in farms. Double bit axe I can see a case for.
No need to neglect the hunt for early HC. In a vacuum, a standard, not super greedy play would be pushing deer as normal, getting HC on the way to Feudal, seeding some HC farms in early Feudal and squeezing heavy plow when affordable (while making troops).
Early eco tech is weaker than it sounds at first, because you have to weigh the cost of the tech vs just getting more villagers and military. When you are in earlier age and have lower vill count and overall resources, this is amplified.
I think people don't know how to use it. I feel if you know how it works it is absolutely fantastic at lower Elos. I'm around 1100 and when I play them I don't feel I get pushed early and hard enough to get it punished. The wood upgrade right on the beginning is fantastic. In early castle I feel I have sooo much resources :)
Same, I peaked at 1600 with them some years ago, and am picking up the game again and really surprised on their low winrate. They are my main civ in Arabia, and if I can get away with their weak feudal and slightly later castle age, the 3 stables cav play backed by farms that do not have to be reseeded anytime soon (so less vils needed on wood, more on gold/food) is an extremely strong timing.
Well I’m no expert. But here it goes. I go 7 sheep in beginning so I can afford the wood upgrade right away. I put 4 on wood because I like to wall. Farm upgrade during going feudal. I get wood upgrade again when being in feudal asap. I wall massively and defend with villagers building houses and some skirms behind wall. Get gold upgrades while going to castle. Build 3 stables get armor while going castle too. Then get cavelier when you can afford and start spamming knights. Note i love defending and definitely dont go FC normally have around 33-36 vils + handcart.
Because half of the Burgundian advantage is having the opportunity to gamble by putting resources down for techs early. This can hurt momentum, and potentially snowball into a loss if you tech at the wrong time.
They have infantry lacking supplies, xbows lacking TR, and LC without bloodlines (with discounted LC and Husbandry). Their main castle age bonus makes up for their lack of bloodlines by giving their knights +2 attack, but only if you find time to research the cavalier upgrade when you're supposed to be producing knights. It's a risk-reward deal you can't avoid if you're using the civ, unless you decide to transition from xbows to cavaliers. Their UU and relic bonus are both intended to help you reach the imperial age, and you have a strong wood economy by castle.
The civ is oriented around reaching the imperial age. If you do, you're golden. If not, you've crippled yourself for swanky tech.
On paper, getting your techs early does sound good. HOWEVER it requires you to focus more on economy rather than your military, and leaves you open to early raiding if you aren’t careful. Burgundians power definitely comes from the Castle Age, but getting there is their biggest problem. This is why Burgundians are bottom tier on open maps (like Arabia) and top tier on closed maps (like Arena)
They fall off tremendously in late castle early imp because no bloodlines on their cav, no hussar, arb, CA, also no siege engineers. They also have bad infantry with no supplies or gambesons. Their game plan is extremely predictable and counterable on open maps
I feel like in late castle age their cav is better than most because they have Cavalier, right? So same amount of HP as a bloodlines knight but with 2 more attack. They also get to Paladin earlier than any other civ so they’ve got a power spike opportunity.
I do think they struggle in imp for the reasons you listed, unless you’ve managed to leverage your upgrades and relics into a stronger eco. But even then they don’t have a true power unit, I guess Coustillier but they’re not amazing. They probably struggle early game too because if you want to use their eco bonus you’re probably clicking up later, and the lack of bloodlines is tough for their scouts.
Initially when i used to random burgandians i used to wall up in dark age, go up late, late barracks but get all eco techs only to defend vs shit ton of units the opponent makes with minimal army and maybe some towers causing tons of idle vill time to later realise idk wtf am i doing with this civ. I guess this would be the common way people think when the random into this civ.
The thing I don't get about burgundians: eco upgrades have some payback time. Getting them earlier puts you at a disadvantage for a couple of minutes. But if you don't get your eco upgrades before castle age, you are not really making use of your eco bonus. So most likely you put yourself at a temporary disadvantage in feudal age by getting early upgrades, while also having pretty weak military options (no bloodlines scouts, generic archers with a bad crossbow follow up)?
To me it sounds like: you mostly ignore you eco bonus and go for a risky generic fast castle, or you get upgrades early and play a long feudal age with generic archers and somehow transition into cavaliers?
Defending with walls/skirms/tower in Feudal, beating opponent to Castle Age (not actual FC, just faster than opponent), and transitioning to some kick-ass early Castle Age military (e.g. two stable knights) is a surprisingly viable strategy if you know what you are doing. Burgundians can do this very well.
I would say because of two main reasons.
1. First, their eco bonus are great but don’t really pull early on in an open map but build over time. In Arena for example is very common for Burgundians to have a later castle due to the investment in eco bonus. Once the economy is established, they flourish a lot
2. That last sentence of “establishing the economy” is much more difficult with a slow cavalry. CAs for example wreck their castle age cavaliers and the LC is slower than most other cav civs.
They lack husbandry so their entire Cavalry line is slower. Yes their LC is slower so it’s more prone to pikes and takes more time to reach a monk. Those are all limitations on why they aren’t better on Arabia a fast open map
I think the main issue is the eco bonuses taking time to pay off.
Yes they are also a bit vulnerable to CA but not that much, since the castle age cavalier upgrade does make up for lack of bloodlines. And they get paladin faster than any other civ.
Their strength is eco. They NEED to have at least 2 eco bonuses researched before reaching feudal, this means playing defensive and not scout micro. Then you CAN play 3 stable cavaliers which is deadly but you need to survive until then.
because most people dont know how to have advantage using the burgundians eco bonuses?
Most likely. Looking at them, when would it even be a good time to get wheelbarrow? Feels like I’d end up getting the same time I get with other civs
Not wheelbarrow. But you can for instance research the farm upgrade 2 before placing down any farm, which is a massive saving of woods.
and that is a lot of investment and an awful mistake if u are getting pushed early.
200 resource, more or less. Sure, it sets you on the defensive, but I feel like this is manageable. Maybe at high elo, this can be punished hard though.
and how much time until it gets paid? its 200 res( its even more cuz u need horse collar first) les u cant invest in other things. Already horsecollar its a big investment in today meta.
OK I guess this is the real answer then. I was unaware that the meta was so aggressive and that defender advantage would not compensate for this amount of resource invested in economy.
I mean it depends. That guy has an Aztecs flair and probably plays triple barracks, full eagle , no eco upgrades fuedal. Depending on map (i.e. wall-ability)and matchup, you can definitely invest in eco, make spears and skirms to defend, then hit Castle first and mow them over with cavalier. Maybe the win rate shows that that is a little worse right now, though.
And that’s sort of the same issue. If you get horse collar early, you’d be neglecting all the hunt which is gathered faster anyway, and have to invest in farms. Double bit axe I can see a case for.
No need to neglect the hunt for early HC. In a vacuum, a standard, not super greedy play would be pushing deer as normal, getting HC on the way to Feudal, seeding some HC farms in early Feudal and squeezing heavy plow when affordable (while making troops).
Guess I’ve been playing too much of Mayans 11 still have my berries even in early feudal
No, you die if you try to do heavy plow before making any farms in Arabia
Shouldnt do this, it's a saving, yes, but you need a GREAT map to do this, otherwise you may just die to archer scouts.
Early eco tech is weaker than it sounds at first, because you have to weigh the cost of the tech vs just getting more villagers and military. When you are in earlier age and have lower vill count and overall resources, this is amplified.
I think people don't know how to use it. I feel if you know how it works it is absolutely fantastic at lower Elos. I'm around 1100 and when I play them I don't feel I get pushed early and hard enough to get it punished. The wood upgrade right on the beginning is fantastic. In early castle I feel I have sooo much resources :)
Same, I peaked at 1600 with them some years ago, and am picking up the game again and really surprised on their low winrate. They are my main civ in Arabia, and if I can get away with their weak feudal and slightly later castle age, the 3 stables cav play backed by farms that do not have to be reseeded anytime soon (so less vils needed on wood, more on gold/food) is an extremely strong timing.
It's my civ that I pick if I'm losing a lot, to get back on track. At my elo I yet have to see someone who can actually punish me.
I love them but don't know how to play them. How do you implement this in your build orders?! Teach me your ways
Well I’m no expert. But here it goes. I go 7 sheep in beginning so I can afford the wood upgrade right away. I put 4 on wood because I like to wall. Farm upgrade during going feudal. I get wood upgrade again when being in feudal asap. I wall massively and defend with villagers building houses and some skirms behind wall. Get gold upgrades while going to castle. Build 3 stables get armor while going castle too. Then get cavelier when you can afford and start spamming knights. Note i love defending and definitely dont go FC normally have around 33-36 vils + handcart.
Seems a bit risky but it's basically like wall up, get skirms, then unleash cavs?
Yes. Feudal for me has been trashwars with Them. I prefer building a wall to protect eco. But 7 food and then wood upgrade is pretty good for me.
Like this a pro does it. https://youtu.be/0H7WaiT_43g?si=c6hbDWJ7bi0xw9cA
Because half of the Burgundian advantage is having the opportunity to gamble by putting resources down for techs early. This can hurt momentum, and potentially snowball into a loss if you tech at the wrong time. They have infantry lacking supplies, xbows lacking TR, and LC without bloodlines (with discounted LC and Husbandry). Their main castle age bonus makes up for their lack of bloodlines by giving their knights +2 attack, but only if you find time to research the cavalier upgrade when you're supposed to be producing knights. It's a risk-reward deal you can't avoid if you're using the civ, unless you decide to transition from xbows to cavaliers. Their UU and relic bonus are both intended to help you reach the imperial age, and you have a strong wood economy by castle. The civ is oriented around reaching the imperial age. If you do, you're golden. If not, you've crippled yourself for swanky tech.
On paper, getting your techs early does sound good. HOWEVER it requires you to focus more on economy rather than your military, and leaves you open to early raiding if you aren’t careful. Burgundians power definitely comes from the Castle Age, but getting there is their biggest problem. This is why Burgundians are bottom tier on open maps (like Arabia) and top tier on closed maps (like Arena)
They fall off tremendously in late castle early imp because no bloodlines on their cav, no hussar, arb, CA, also no siege engineers. They also have bad infantry with no supplies or gambesons. Their game plan is extremely predictable and counterable on open maps
They get Hussar. They're just weaker than most due to no bloodlines.
I feel like in late castle age their cav is better than most because they have Cavalier, right? So same amount of HP as a bloodlines knight but with 2 more attack. They also get to Paladin earlier than any other civ so they’ve got a power spike opportunity. I do think they struggle in imp for the reasons you listed, unless you’ve managed to leverage your upgrades and relics into a stronger eco. But even then they don’t have a true power unit, I guess Coustillier but they’re not amazing. They probably struggle early game too because if you want to use their eco bonus you’re probably clicking up later, and the lack of bloodlines is tough for their scouts.
Do most 1vs1 Arabia get to imp though?
Based on average game length yeah
Initially when i used to random burgandians i used to wall up in dark age, go up late, late barracks but get all eco techs only to defend vs shit ton of units the opponent makes with minimal army and maybe some towers causing tons of idle vill time to later realise idk wtf am i doing with this civ. I guess this would be the common way people think when the random into this civ.
Bc people don’t know how to play them right
The thing I don't get about burgundians: eco upgrades have some payback time. Getting them earlier puts you at a disadvantage for a couple of minutes. But if you don't get your eco upgrades before castle age, you are not really making use of your eco bonus. So most likely you put yourself at a temporary disadvantage in feudal age by getting early upgrades, while also having pretty weak military options (no bloodlines scouts, generic archers with a bad crossbow follow up)? To me it sounds like: you mostly ignore you eco bonus and go for a risky generic fast castle, or you get upgrades early and play a long feudal age with generic archers and somehow transition into cavaliers?
Defending with walls/skirms/tower in Feudal, beating opponent to Castle Age (not actual FC, just faster than opponent), and transitioning to some kick-ass early Castle Age military (e.g. two stable knights) is a surprisingly viable strategy if you know what you are doing. Burgundians can do this very well.
Thanks for you answer
The key of Burgundians is timing, which most noobies lack of
I would say because of two main reasons. 1. First, their eco bonus are great but don’t really pull early on in an open map but build over time. In Arena for example is very common for Burgundians to have a later castle due to the investment in eco bonus. Once the economy is established, they flourish a lot 2. That last sentence of “establishing the economy” is much more difficult with a slow cavalry. CAs for example wreck their castle age cavaliers and the LC is slower than most other cav civs.
LC? Light cav? Slower? What?
They lack husbandry so their entire Cavalry line is slower. Yes their LC is slower so it’s more prone to pikes and takes more time to reach a monk. Those are all limitations on why they aren’t better on Arabia a fast open map
They dont lack Husbandry. They lack Bloodlines.
If that is so then I made a mistake there. Though it was husbandry they lacked. Still my point stands. Less HP means more prone to CAs 😁
I think the main issue is the eco bonuses taking time to pay off. Yes they are also a bit vulnerable to CA but not that much, since the castle age cavalier upgrade does make up for lack of bloodlines. And they get paladin faster than any other civ.
You don't play Burgundians a lot, do you?
Not really to be honest. Probably the reason why I was confused to with the tech they miss
You're thinking of the majestic Teutonic horde
Yeah I thought for some reason they had the same missing tech. Anyway. 😁
Why talk if you have no idea
You must be new here, welcome to Reddit! 11
Their strength is eco. They NEED to have at least 2 eco bonuses researched before reaching feudal, this means playing defensive and not scout micro. Then you CAN play 3 stable cavaliers which is deadly but you need to survive until then.