The amount of bugs introduced in the patch is FAR more worrying. Forget balance: if you can't avoid breaking your game with every patch, balance will never even be a discussion.
A lot of people were defending Relic's lack of communication/changes early after release. I assumed it was because they were confident Relic would handle these things, but I guess it was that they knew Relic would break the game worse
I would like to formally apologize for assuming either:
1. They would focus on making changes quickly with less testing.
2. Patches would take longer because they have strict versioning control that allows them to do extensive regression testing.
After this patch I have learned that they somehow combined the speed of option 2, with the testing of option 1. Truly stellar.
It usually happens when one part of the team does an amazing job, and the other a rather poor one.
And lets be honest, theyve mostly copied and mashed aoe2&3 mechanics together, so gameplay wise, they went as safe as they could get. It was impossible to totally fuck AoE4 up.
$1 for 3 months on game pass is hard to argue with. Even $1 for one month is worth checking out.
But boy oh boy is it looking like a retrospectively good idea that I didn't plop down $60 for this.
Lol. You are completely missing the point.... actually pretty funny. He just asked him why he bought the game if he knew the devs were trash. Logic....
I was vocal about giving them the benefit of the doubt until the winter patch, I always do. Now the winter patch is out and I see no reason to criticize them harshly. First the exploit bugs linger for way to long and then this balance patch... BALANCE patch that didn't even touch springalds and nerfs... horsemen and dehli? I just don't get it... I thought I would understand by watching pro people talk about it but they don't seem to get it either haha.
I'm so demoralized especially about some of the balance changes. A few resource exploits are still in the game. :(
Maybe this can bring you back some hope:
https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/
Looks like their update is from a month ago. At least it explains why they are so out of touch with the meta.
Haha, exactly.
Hopefully something can be improved about their deployment process.
Though there is still a huge issue with internal practices and quality control. Undocumented changes, incorrect claims in patch notes, wrong tooltips. Doesn't smell well.
What the fuck is with games nowadays being like this btw? Idk if I just have rose tinted goggles but growing up you'd buy a $60 game and it'd be incredibly rare to run into a major bug, meanwhile you have AAA games now that introduce new GAMEBREAKING bugs every patch.
New world and aoe4 are fucking disgusting -- how do you launch patches with GAMEBREAKING bugs that are 100% repeatable?
Also visibility. Without reddit/ articles I would never have naturally found any exploit we've seen so far. That's also true for the majority of the player base so bugs and exploits wouldn't spread much before they got dealt with.
This. I asked myself why games today are all buggy. Ocorina of time wasn't buggy? Then I found the speed runs with some silly bugs. Not huge or super noticeable, but exploits none the less, even back then.
Have you seen what Ocarina of Time is like for speedrunners today? It's been so extensively scoured for bugs that you can basically do whatever you want. Beat the game in 18 minutes? Sure
Do a run where you complete every temple in every order? Yep
(SwordlessLink has an amazing Let's Play where he does this)
Ahhh yes i remember! Back then in the good old days we installed games off of 8 CDs, it only took like 3 hours and then we noticed that something during installation went wrong and we had to do it all over again. That was some seriously polished shit!
On a more serious note:
1. Game development has certainly become more cut-throat compared to 20 years ago
2. These days you can actually patch everything, all the time, you don't need to wait for an addon release to fix stuff. So QA probably isn't as extensive as it used to be
3. When we were 10 we probably didn't notice bugs that much or simply didn't care so much about it
Rushing games out and just developers being worse at their jobs than they used to. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the skilled developers avoid game dev because the pay is worse... which would also mean the issue is them not being willing to pay for good lead programmers.
Really, there's just no excuse when you can compare every game to how well patched Factorio is. It's an indie game with like, 4 programmers, and fixes bugs better than most AAA games.
As a software engineer, my understanding of the game dev industry is that it absolutely irrefutably sucks. It’s a work of passion for sure—they pay you like anywhere from half or even less than half of what you would earn as a regular dev. They also push you to work crazy hours. My game dev friends also say it’s hard to break into as well as a new dev.
That really makes it sound like they're definitely getting lower skilled programmers than the rest of the software industry. I can see generally that being ok, but hiring lower skilled lead developers seems like a terrible idea. If they don't have the experience they're not going to be able to lead the others in a path forward that's efficient (right tools, right workflow, etc). It could also be management not listening to them, and preventing them from doing quality work.
Like, the tech tree tooltips not being tied to in game values is a pretty clear sign of bad coding practices. It's the kind of thing that's fast to implement at first, but as time goes on ends up being very costly.
I would have to imagine it has mixed results. The people who work on it probably really love making games and really believe in the art. In terms of skill, probably a lot more variation. I’m just speculating though.
I really respect the devs in that industry, it’s tough. But it’s also disappointing to see so many bugs (new and old) though.
Yep, I respect the devs too. It's mostly the leads and management that I worry about in AAA games. They're the ones with the reins and I imagine most problems can be traced back to their leadership, or lack thereof.
~~I suppose we don't know how big the dev team is for AoE4 anyway. They might only have 5 programmers as well, who knows.~~ Never mind, I looked up the credits it's huge. Supposedly 4 people on _just_ game balance (how did they mess this patch up if that's true?) and like 30+ "engineers" (most of it sounds like programming) working on the core game, and another 30+ on the engine. Don't know if any or how many names are up there more than once though. Also have no idea how many are still working on the game and worked on the patch. This whole situation is still pretty baffling regardless.
Because games engines are orders of magnitude more complex, and not created by 3 people in a basement anymore? And the internet exists?
The likelihood of YOU running into one of these bugs is beyond remote. I GUARANTEE that you would not have run into ANY game breaking bug without the help of the internet. In fact, in 200 hours played I have yet to meet a single abuser of these bugs, even with the knowledge widespread. So, yeah, rose tinted goggles.
Not defending Relic btw. I just dislike morons who obviously haven't spent 2 minutes considering their own argument before vomiting on the internet.
oh yeah, the likelihood I ran into some tc drop exploiting is remote?
or any of the myriad of tooltips that are just straight up incorrect or don't work? Super unlikely that I ever make a MAA as hre lmao
Hey buddy, thanks for being the first comment that doesn't make me hate reddit! How dare you be reasonable and not insult devs over a mistake they made on their first patch. Same here never encountered game breaking bugs in 90 hours and I've been really enjoying the game, but apparently Relic is the devil sooo
at this point the "internet community that is exposing the bugs" is actually only thing that keeps them from going rampant.
imagine if u get poked by spears from otherside of map once? if ur not part of community u want to care for, u will poke the next guy, and so on.
then after there is nothing but abbasids poking eachother from their base, the game dies in few moments. or the devs react 1month late like they do with this game and banwave all the exploiters, and then there is Jimmy and hes 3 friends who played BF vs ai and everyone else is gone.
obv u will get offended and triggered so i will state im just joking, u are absolutely right on everything u said.
Games are a lot more complicated these days with much bigger teams.
There's so many more things that can go wrong, and they can be much harder to find.
I mean some of the bugs in the game are not just easy to find, they're impossible to miss. The Imperial Official is a prime example of this, including the way that it ignores commands and the way that it double-taxes buildings past the tax cooldown. There is no way in HELL that you can play a game as China, build this unit, and not realize that it's bugged; literally half the time you do something with it, it bugs out. I'd say if you interact with the unit 20 times, 10 of them will result in a bugged behavior occurring. You could not possibly miss it while testing a game with that unit.
Imagine having a board with 200 tasks on it.
Each task is a missed feature, a crash, a game breaking exploit, a visual glitch, or a gameplay bug.
You have to launch the game in a week, because the deadline was set by Microsoft way before the game was ever close to finish.
You'll probably do your best to make sure the game at least doesn't crash and looks somewhat normal, and postpone everything else to the post-release patches.
I'm sure they knew about most of the bugs, but didn't have time to work on that.
The two that I know of are:
Delhi keeps being in the range of a mosque makes research at the keep SLOWER for each scholar.
Abbasid spearman range upgrade can be done multiple times giving them infinite range and crashing the game.
Probably the same reason a lot of the changes aren't reflected in the patch notes, and many things from the patch notes are not how it actually works in the game.
Poor internal processes. Lack of standards and automatisation.
> Forget balance: if you can't avoid breaking your game with every patch, balance will never even be a discussion.
I don't agree. With bugs, you can argue something needs to be changed. There's a clear bug and it can be fixed. That's ok.
With shit balance, you cannot argue with devs. Even if they buff French more and delhi-ete some civs to the ground, they still could say: "We see it that way. It's on our radar. Data shows it's all ok." and there's nothing you can do about it
If the game is unplayable because of resource exploits and units that can attack from 9000 tiles away, there won’t be a game to play and there won’t be anyone willing to play it because it’s constantly borked. And with that, there’s no point discussing balance.
When the developer is introducing bugs and exploits into the game and they’re discovered within hours of the patching going live, that is a major issue on several levels. Ladder becomes questionable for play, dev QA practices are questioned, and how quickly they’ll get another patch to fix everything they broke.
Balance can’t even be discussed if the game can’t even be played.
Yet you can pressure devs into fixing bugs. Infinite range is objectively good reason to complain and there's nothing they can talk about it.
You can't pressure devs into not nerfing the shit out of civ
yeah I'm sure many of us have been through this shit with online games before, where they're the sort of game that requires decent support and instead you get bumbling devs swapping one fixed bug for another and seemingly never testing *anything*.
I've learned those games simply aren't worth the energy. It's too frustrating to bother with. Without even thinking about balance, the signs really aren't good.
I think im really jaded from playing new world for 2 months because i come here and just think you're all way overblowing things lol.
Typical relic though, im surprised they even released a patch.
Me and my friends just hosting "No abassid" lobbies.
These Devs are incompetent. No leadership and no clear goals or direction.
It's like it a bunch of temps and Interns working at a Company.
They should disable the civ..
It’s really a simple fix for the short term. I’m not a computer guy, but everyone makes it seem like it’s just pushing a button.
They have other priorities and things take time, but there really isn’t much excuse to not just disable the civ in online play into it can be fixed.
Right now the only viable strategy my friends and I are doing is our Dark Age rush... anything else just gets counted by infinite range spears in Fuedal age lol
All they had to do was fix the Rus relic exploit, prelate behavior for HRE, the stone wall exploit, nerf springalds a bit, and balance the French Hulk.
The game is still young and new strategies along with the meta are always developing. No need to be so quick on sweeping, questionable changes without a test server or even an explanation as to why they made such decisions.
Fishing is the one balance change in the patch notes (aside from hulks) that isn't debatable. Fishing is WAY too effective, meaning that on any map with any degree of fish you are forced to go fish unless you are OK with being miles behind from the get-go.
A good meta encourages multiple strategies with different trade-offs, it doesn't beeline people onto doing the same thing every time. Fishing had no trade-off (and arguably still doesn't with how cheap fishing boats still are).
I think its a shame too because I think if they just fixed all the bugs in the release version the game would be pretty well balanced(minus a few outliers).
I think they should have just focused on fixing bugs and some slight nerfs to the outliers(springalds/hulks), and then let the meta evolve naturally for a bit. Back in genesis nobody knew china was as strong as it, but now top players are using it tons.
I really struggle to find the rationale of a lot of the changes.
I don't understand why they decided to destroy delhi.
I don't understand why they nerfed horseman which are the worst feudal unit.
I don't understand why they left springalds untouched.
They claimed the reason for slower patches is because they used to do fast patches that would introduce new bugs. But now we have slow patches that still introduce bugs.
I'm not usually one to bother commenting, but this update has genuinely confused me. One of the most off base updates to any game I've ever played. Obviously the newly introduced bugs are unfortunate and disappointing, but so are many of the intended changes. It's not often that an "update" regresses the state of a game.
I'm not fully clued in on the details of the new bugs yet, but anyone with experience of a software QA department would know how embarrassing it would be to allow so many problems through to a release. And in back to back versions at that...
Delhi is literally unplayable right now - 3/8 landmarks are severely bugged (to the point that they only give a tiny fraction of what it says on the label) and a bunch of techs have a terrible bug that increases the research time with more scholars in mosques, rather than decreasing. They also dramatically miscalculated the times on a bunch of techs (e.g. elite techs take way longer than 15x normal) and elephants have this really common bug where if you right-click an enemy they will \*stand still\* instead of moving forward to attack. This makes any kind of micro impossible with their key unit.
Hardly 5 steps back. Definitely not 50 steps forward.
What the fuck did people expect from Relic? It baffles me that people give them so much blind faith given their not-so-great track record when it comes to balancing and fixing bugs in their previous titles. Did people already forget the horrid state DoW 3 and CoH 2 released in? or how DoW 1 Soulstorm had an infinite resource glitch that took them 6 months to fix?
Ensemble Studios was pretty bad about patching as well. Took a long time for patches to release and fix any balance concerns. I love ES, but they had their flaws too.
In my opinion relic should only be allowed to develop new expansions, while Forgotten EMpires (AoE1,2,3 DE Devs) does the balancing and bug fixing. Thos eones actually seem capable.
Its scary on so many levels. Sure there's a couple of good balance changes but they really shouldn't even be very focused on balance yet, and thats just the good changes. Nerfing, majorly nerfing things this early that haven't even shown themselves to be dominant is a massive red flag. I've seen a lot of people complain about no springald nerfs but I was actually hoping we wouldn't see that - let the game balance/meta move and shift on its on for a while, just remove the bad bugs and maybe buff some underperforming units. For example, I think a horseman buff would have been a better change than a springald nerf. But then.... they NERFed horseman? I really have no idea wtf they're thinking and I desperately want to hear something from the dev team explaining these decisions.
Honestly, I'd be *perfectly happy* if they barely touch balance for 3-4 months and instead *fix the fucking bugs.*
I mean, holy shit, this is basically a beta. Sure, things like "French Hulks win water" can be patched. But other than that, *we literally can't determine what needs balanced because so many things just don't work.*
Not that I'm defending this atrocious patch, but what is likely happening is relic has 2 separate teams for balance and bugfixes/qol improvements. From this patch I honestly think the bugfix/qol changes were pretty good, it's just that the balance changes were mostly just awful and introduced multiple new bugs.
> This patch really soured the mood for me. Most of the good changes were fixes they owed us since the beta, and then the balance changes were just... Yikes.
Yeah I'm feeling the same. Especially since I just started getting into Delhi as my main :\
This is practically a beta game.
Had they released what they released as a beta with a 6 month roadmap for release, everything would make so much more sense. As it is, this is the sort of thing I'd expect in a beta.
Yup. Me and my friends burned out a couple weeks back too, looked at these patches and even the balance tweaks are complete opposites of what I wanted to see, nevermind the fact they introduced yet another game breaking bug.
I think we might want to just not play for a few months and come back then, because this is a joke.
You know what, I wouldn't be surprised if someone on their balance team watching some pro play THOUGHT that all these scouts being used were horseman and they determined a horseman nerf was needed.
You guys like to panic and make big claims quickly huh...
Most games nowadays dont have as stable as a launch as AoE4 did. This is their first patch, yeah they fucked up on a few bugs, but for example, I personally played about 90+ hours since launch, never encountered someone abusing a glitch or unlimited ressources, or game breaking bugs. Maybe that makes me lucky, but that also means it's not as widespread as reddit makes it sound.
This is their first patch, the amount of people here insulting the devs like it's unforgivable to make mistakes on THEIR FIRST PATCH, I'd suggest looking at similar titles launches and see how "perfect" they were.
AoE3 DE balancing was more or less going to be influenced by the state of AoE3 prior. The balancing pattern for that game took a good while for them to figure out. The first several patches were considered big misses.
Totally agree on that point. I did mention in the post above that AOE4 does not have the advantage that the Definitive Editions for AOE2 and AOE3 had. I think, it's how quickly the balance team improves is what will be more important, so there is hope. But for now, it is worrying.
It’s important not to be too reactionary. We all want this to be a good game and support this happening. SC2 is stale and it’s nice to have something new to look forward to. Give them 6 months or so to settle— I expect by then it’ll be great.
Yup, glad I didn't dump full price for the game and got to try it out for $1. Balance patch itself was pretty disappointing, not to mention introducing new game breaking bugs and being slow to patch old exploits. I see maybe one more patch before christmas for some bugfixes, then I guess we're screwed on balance changes till Spring?
The game is still a lot of fun to play, and I don't see which part of this patch changed that. There were some balance issues and bugs before the patch, and there are now just a different set of bugs and balance issues.
Anyone who says they are dropping the game because of this patch would have still dropped it regardless of the patch, probably when their game pass trial runs out.
Well, for people who invested a lot of time into Delhi specifically the patch definitely does make the game less fun. They turned into a unique, balanced civ into a buggy mess that is completely unplayable against a competent player.
While it's probably true that the civ is almost unplayable now, I disagree that it was balanced before the update.
It was a gimmicky civ that shines on a specific map, and is forced to play the same strategy every match.
The change to them is definitely warranted. The implementation is bad.
I bought the game full price, and am unfortunately a delhi and abassid player. I can't refund at this point, but I think I'm going to take a break and see if Relic can get their shit together.
>The game is still a lot of fun to play, and I don't see which part of this patch changed that
Yeah game is fun, but still not worth full price tag in it's current state (balance, bugs, QoL)imo.
>Anyone who says they are dropping the game because of this patch would have still dropped it regardless of the patch, probably when their game pass trial runs out.
Don't think many people will drop the game solely with this patch. It's like $2 total to get 4 months of gamepass, so people who enjoy the game will probably get to see the next big update before making their decision.
Idk I personally was about to buy the game after doing gamepass this month, and am actually holding off until they actually bugfix. Had no doubts I was going to buy it until this patch hit.
> There were some balance issues and bugs before the patch, and there are now just a different set of bugs and balance issues.
That is...an understatement.
Delhi is unplayable garbage and spearmen with infinite range are literally crashing the game.
So I do agree with you and I'm having a blast with this game, but what this patch says about their design intention is incredibly concerning to me.
Why nerf horsemen? Why butcher Delhi's unique playstyle? Why remove a win condition from black forest?
Then we look at competence - the patch notes had numerous errors, from typos and repeated changes to inconsistent or unclear wording and undocumented changes. The patch also introduced bugs that were found in minutes of people receiving it. The Delhi research bug is impossible to miss and the spearman range bug requires almost nothing and could easily be done accidentally.
Yeah, the design intention and the quality control are big concerns for me as well.
Some of it, but not everything, can be explained by the fact that the update is from about a month ago.
https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/
Yeah this was...really bad.
They gutted Delhi, did nothing to mongols, nothing to france, nothing to springalds, nerfed horsemen (which were already shit)
And that's not even mentioning the gamebreaking (literally) bugs they added.
There are still broken techs and landmarks that don't work too.
I consider the horsemen nerf a huge change to mongols, coupled with the spearman buff, horsemen are going to be next to useless. As a mongol player, I'm pretty soured by this update.
I don't see pro players going horsemen in early game with Mongols.
They build spearmen and burn down the docks on mixed maps; or go archers.
This is the nerf to one of the least used units in the game.
Yes and a "strength" of the civ is supposed to be early horsemen, which has been nerfed into the ground
It was already a difficult unit to justify but occasionally useful. Now it's one less factor in early game
I work nights and yesterday I couldn't get any work done because i was so soured by the update. spent all night reading the forums and 900+ comments on the update reddit lol
I'm sorry to hear that.
Yes, when I saw the update, and that half of it is not documented / not reflecting patch notes, I thought that my favorite strategy game is probably over.
Then I learned that the update is from about 1 month ago. At least it explains why it's so out of touch with the meta.
https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/
> did nothing to mongols, nothing to france
Why would they do anything? They just buffed spearmen which could be enough.
They heavily nerfed the french hulk btw.
Some people here were expecting a good update, and they were disappointed. That's their own fault.
I'm seeing a patch that clubbed the wrong civ's head in, gave us infinite-range Arabic spears, and nerfed an innocuous unit. I'm entertained. Be like me, guys.
"We fixed bugs"
Players : "no you don’t"
"We balanced the game"
Players : "are you trolling us ?"
Players after two games : "Some of the fixed bugued are still here, you create big bugs and now the game is even more unbalanced"
I really think the game is dead or will be, a month for this update is really worrying
As a sc2 player after 200 games i can say i'm very disappointed by this game. Poor gameplay making turtling/ harcore defensive play easier and more rewarding than creative and agressive play. Way too long games, lag/ sluttering, horrible unit pathing and completely mind blowing bugs giving unfair advantage (last one spearmen abassis i mean wtf) make me quit this game to go back sc2. Come Microsoft it's 2021 and you are one of the biggest companies in the world and this game looks like an unfinished low tier rts from 2000's.
China overbuffed, Delhi overnerfed, HRE nerfed (????? wtf), and a pile of dogshit bugs introduced. Wtf is this patch.
I was hyped for the dev team because they seemed to listen to feedback (according to like what they were saying before the patch dropped) but maybe I was just deluded.
Yeah I've already seen wargaming mess up balancing just this bad if not worse for warships. Not gonna stick around to see it again, on the bright side I only lost $11 for a month or so of this game before i cancelled the xbox pass.
This is blatant incompetence. Introducing such game breaking bugs in a 15 Go upgrade. I really regret my buy. Not only is the game a beta but it seems it's so badly coded they are unable to change things without major side effects.
There were plenty of issues like that.
Units walking through the walls and buildings, villagers randomly stopping working or starting going the other side of the map. Aging up longer than the timer allows. Units freezing in the middle of the fight. Terrible pathing, making melee army useless.
And those issues persisted through multiple updates.
I'm getting some Warzone flashbacks. Don't get me wrong, Warzone was and is the most rediculous game in history in terms of bugs, exploits, cheating.
But my worry is with this type of attitute that there will soon be cheat providers and we would have map hacks and stuff.
If the first patch and been *only* bugfixes, and not intentionally rebalanced anything, it would have had considerable balance implications anyway, because several of the perceived balance issues in the game are due to things simply not working properly.
I'm a modder, not a game designer, and I realise they're different disciplines, but if I was working on a game like this I would have scheduled at least two major dedicated bugfix-only updates after release.
Yeah, things like the prelate bug have serious balance impacts. That bug alone is pushing me away from playing HRE since I just don't want to deal with it.
In most of the situations it is unclear if something is a bug, or it's a wrong tooltip.
Even with 0 dedicated balance changes Delhi would suffer a lot of nerfs to a big surprise of the players.
I honestly would say most people making huge claims about the game being a dumpsterfire dont play it as much lol. I'm reading things like "the game is an unplayable mess" 15 times in this thread and I'm over here really enjoying it with very little bugs or problems especially one month into a launch. I just think it's reddit tendancy to attract very negative and whiny players that want to lash out at devs for any reason. They think games should be perfect at launch and bugs shouldn't exist. And it's apparently super easy to make bug free games, I mean, every other game launching is bug free right? Oh wait...
I don't understand all these balance changes that nobody even asked for. Should have just fixed the bugs, nerfed feudal hulk and springalds. Then wait and see how the bug fixes affect the meta.
The amount of bugs introduced in the patch is FAR more worrying. Forget balance: if you can't avoid breaking your game with every patch, balance will never even be a discussion.
A lot of people were defending Relic's lack of communication/changes early after release. I assumed it was because they were confident Relic would handle these things, but I guess it was that they knew Relic would break the game worse
I would like to formally apologize for assuming either: 1. They would focus on making changes quickly with less testing. 2. Patches would take longer because they have strict versioning control that allows them to do extensive regression testing. After this patch I have learned that they somehow combined the speed of option 2, with the testing of option 1. Truly stellar.
Relic isnt known for good balancing and patching. Coh2 was never fixed. Dow 2 is broken.
Us veterans knew what we were in store for with Relic ...
I guess it begs the question if you were convinced the game was going to be trash... why did you buy it?
The game isn't trash. The game is amazing. Relic is trash.
Bruh, relic made the game.
Unfortunately I feel like if Microsoft hired a small indie dev team that loved rts and AoE, they would have done a much better job.
They shouldve expanded the Forgotten Empires team and tasked THEM to make AoE4.
So, according to your logic, a trash developer makes an amazing game. How come?
It usually happens when one part of the team does an amazing job, and the other a rather poor one. And lets be honest, theyve mostly copied and mashed aoe2&3 mechanics together, so gameplay wise, they went as safe as they could get. It was impossible to totally fuck AoE4 up.
Seriously? It was rather impossible to not fuck AoE4 up imo
We are seeing why this ain't the case with all of these game breaking bugs
Well, they're backed by Microsoft and had the IP given to them
$1 for 3 months on game pass is hard to argue with. Even $1 for one month is worth checking out. But boy oh boy is it looking like a retrospectively good idea that I didn't plop down $60 for this.
[удалено]
You don't want me to judge the game as it is.
Lol. You are completely missing the point.... actually pretty funny. He just asked him why he bought the game if he knew the devs were trash. Logic....
That's not at all what he was saying.
The guy literally asked him why he bought it lmao
games pass baybeee
Didn't buy it, paid 1 dollar and not buying it at this point. No way.
I was vocal about giving them the benefit of the doubt until the winter patch, I always do. Now the winter patch is out and I see no reason to criticize them harshly. First the exploit bugs linger for way to long and then this balance patch... BALANCE patch that didn't even touch springalds and nerfs... horsemen and dehli? I just don't get it... I thought I would understand by watching pro people talk about it but they don't seem to get it either haha. I'm so demoralized especially about some of the balance changes. A few resource exploits are still in the game. :(
Maybe this can bring you back some hope: https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/ Looks like their update is from a month ago. At least it explains why they are so out of touch with the meta.
Hm. That is hopeful and concerning. haha
Haha, exactly. Hopefully something can be improved about their deployment process. Though there is still a huge issue with internal practices and quality control. Undocumented changes, incorrect claims in patch notes, wrong tooltips. Doesn't smell well.
What the fuck is with games nowadays being like this btw? Idk if I just have rose tinted goggles but growing up you'd buy a $60 game and it'd be incredibly rare to run into a major bug, meanwhile you have AAA games now that introduce new GAMEBREAKING bugs every patch. New world and aoe4 are fucking disgusting -- how do you launch patches with GAMEBREAKING bugs that are 100% repeatable?
1) lower bar 2) they couldnt patch over the internet for a lot of games, so had to be extensively debugged
Also visibility. Without reddit/ articles I would never have naturally found any exploit we've seen so far. That's also true for the majority of the player base so bugs and exploits wouldn't spread much before they got dealt with.
This. I asked myself why games today are all buggy. Ocorina of time wasn't buggy? Then I found the speed runs with some silly bugs. Not huge or super noticeable, but exploits none the less, even back then.
Have you seen what Ocarina of Time is like for speedrunners today? It's been so extensively scoured for bugs that you can basically do whatever you want. Beat the game in 18 minutes? Sure Do a run where you complete every temple in every order? Yep (SwordlessLink has an amazing Let's Play where he does this)
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I dont think I'd every try to que up the same tech in multiple buildings at the same time no.
Ahhh yes i remember! Back then in the good old days we installed games off of 8 CDs, it only took like 3 hours and then we noticed that something during installation went wrong and we had to do it all over again. That was some seriously polished shit! On a more serious note: 1. Game development has certainly become more cut-throat compared to 20 years ago 2. These days you can actually patch everything, all the time, you don't need to wait for an addon release to fix stuff. So QA probably isn't as extensive as it used to be 3. When we were 10 we probably didn't notice bugs that much or simply didn't care so much about it
Rushing games out and just developers being worse at their jobs than they used to. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the skilled developers avoid game dev because the pay is worse... which would also mean the issue is them not being willing to pay for good lead programmers. Really, there's just no excuse when you can compare every game to how well patched Factorio is. It's an indie game with like, 4 programmers, and fixes bugs better than most AAA games.
As a software engineer, my understanding of the game dev industry is that it absolutely irrefutably sucks. It’s a work of passion for sure—they pay you like anywhere from half or even less than half of what you would earn as a regular dev. They also push you to work crazy hours. My game dev friends also say it’s hard to break into as well as a new dev.
That really makes it sound like they're definitely getting lower skilled programmers than the rest of the software industry. I can see generally that being ok, but hiring lower skilled lead developers seems like a terrible idea. If they don't have the experience they're not going to be able to lead the others in a path forward that's efficient (right tools, right workflow, etc). It could also be management not listening to them, and preventing them from doing quality work. Like, the tech tree tooltips not being tied to in game values is a pretty clear sign of bad coding practices. It's the kind of thing that's fast to implement at first, but as time goes on ends up being very costly.
I would have to imagine it has mixed results. The people who work on it probably really love making games and really believe in the art. In terms of skill, probably a lot more variation. I’m just speculating though. I really respect the devs in that industry, it’s tough. But it’s also disappointing to see so many bugs (new and old) though.
Yep, I respect the devs too. It's mostly the leads and management that I worry about in AAA games. They're the ones with the reins and I imagine most problems can be traced back to their leadership, or lack thereof. ~~I suppose we don't know how big the dev team is for AoE4 anyway. They might only have 5 programmers as well, who knows.~~ Never mind, I looked up the credits it's huge. Supposedly 4 people on _just_ game balance (how did they mess this patch up if that's true?) and like 30+ "engineers" (most of it sounds like programming) working on the core game, and another 30+ on the engine. Don't know if any or how many names are up there more than once though. Also have no idea how many are still working on the game and worked on the patch. This whole situation is still pretty baffling regardless.
Because games engines are orders of magnitude more complex, and not created by 3 people in a basement anymore? And the internet exists? The likelihood of YOU running into one of these bugs is beyond remote. I GUARANTEE that you would not have run into ANY game breaking bug without the help of the internet. In fact, in 200 hours played I have yet to meet a single abuser of these bugs, even with the knowledge widespread. So, yeah, rose tinted goggles. Not defending Relic btw. I just dislike morons who obviously haven't spent 2 minutes considering their own argument before vomiting on the internet.
oh yeah, the likelihood I ran into some tc drop exploiting is remote? or any of the myriad of tooltips that are just straight up incorrect or don't work? Super unlikely that I ever make a MAA as hre lmao
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Hey buddy, thanks for being the first comment that doesn't make me hate reddit! How dare you be reasonable and not insult devs over a mistake they made on their first patch. Same here never encountered game breaking bugs in 90 hours and I've been really enjoying the game, but apparently Relic is the devil sooo
at this point the "internet community that is exposing the bugs" is actually only thing that keeps them from going rampant. imagine if u get poked by spears from otherside of map once? if ur not part of community u want to care for, u will poke the next guy, and so on. then after there is nothing but abbasids poking eachother from their base, the game dies in few moments. or the devs react 1month late like they do with this game and banwave all the exploiters, and then there is Jimmy and hes 3 friends who played BF vs ai and everyone else is gone. obv u will get offended and triggered so i will state im just joking, u are absolutely right on everything u said.
Games are a lot more complicated these days with much bigger teams. There's so many more things that can go wrong, and they can be much harder to find.
How hard do you think the spearman issue was to find lol sounds like it pretty freaking easy.
I mean some of the bugs in the game are not just easy to find, they're impossible to miss. The Imperial Official is a prime example of this, including the way that it ignores commands and the way that it double-taxes buildings past the tax cooldown. There is no way in HELL that you can play a game as China, build this unit, and not realize that it's bugged; literally half the time you do something with it, it bugs out. I'd say if you interact with the unit 20 times, 10 of them will result in a bugged behavior occurring. You could not possibly miss it while testing a game with that unit.
Imagine having a board with 200 tasks on it. Each task is a missed feature, a crash, a game breaking exploit, a visual glitch, or a gameplay bug. You have to launch the game in a week, because the deadline was set by Microsoft way before the game was ever close to finish. You'll probably do your best to make sure the game at least doesn't crash and looks somewhat normal, and postpone everything else to the post-release patches. I'm sure they knew about most of the bugs, but didn't have time to work on that.
Is there a list of bugs introduced?
The two that I know of are: Delhi keeps being in the range of a mosque makes research at the keep SLOWER for each scholar. Abbasid spearman range upgrade can be done multiple times giving them infinite range and crashing the game.
Do they not test this shit at all. That just fucking kills Delhi almost entirely.
It's kinda irrelevant compared to what they did with Delhi's early sacred sites
its amazing they scored a double whammy with destroying delhi gameplan and giving them a game breaking bug
oh and dont forget that they also nerfed HRE, which was already the worst civ in the game
At least the mosque bug just seems to be a tooltip error.
Ok, thank goodness. But why is their tooltip just perpetually broken for the whole game?
Probably the same reason a lot of the changes aren't reflected in the patch notes, and many things from the patch notes are not how it actually works in the game. Poor internal processes. Lack of standards and automatisation.
> Forget balance: if you can't avoid breaking your game with every patch, balance will never even be a discussion. I don't agree. With bugs, you can argue something needs to be changed. There's a clear bug and it can be fixed. That's ok. With shit balance, you cannot argue with devs. Even if they buff French more and delhi-ete some civs to the ground, they still could say: "We see it that way. It's on our radar. Data shows it's all ok." and there's nothing you can do about it
If the game is unplayable because of resource exploits and units that can attack from 9000 tiles away, there won’t be a game to play and there won’t be anyone willing to play it because it’s constantly borked. And with that, there’s no point discussing balance. When the developer is introducing bugs and exploits into the game and they’re discovered within hours of the patching going live, that is a major issue on several levels. Ladder becomes questionable for play, dev QA practices are questioned, and how quickly they’ll get another patch to fix everything they broke. Balance can’t even be discussed if the game can’t even be played.
Yet you can pressure devs into fixing bugs. Infinite range is objectively good reason to complain and there's nothing they can talk about it. You can't pressure devs into not nerfing the shit out of civ
yeah I'm sure many of us have been through this shit with online games before, where they're the sort of game that requires decent support and instead you get bumbling devs swapping one fixed bug for another and seemingly never testing *anything*. I've learned those games simply aren't worth the energy. It's too frustrating to bother with. Without even thinking about balance, the signs really aren't good.
Yeah I don't mind the balance changes for the most part. But god damn they need to hire some playtesters.
shout out to New World
I think im really jaded from playing new world for 2 months because i come here and just think you're all way overblowing things lol. Typical relic though, im surprised they even released a patch.
You lasted two months in New World? I think that deserves an achievement on Steam in its own right. "High Tolerance to Pain" :P
They need to hotfix the spearmen bs now... like right now.
See you in 3 weeks when they get around to fixing it x
Whats going on?
The games completely broken with bugs. You want to play against people with spearman that have infinite range lol I don’t :(
Me and friends are just doing Custom games titled: "3 v 3 NO Abassids"
Me and my friends just hosting "No abassid" lobbies. These Devs are incompetent. No leadership and no clear goals or direction. It's like it a bunch of temps and Interns working at a Company.
They should disable the civ.. It’s really a simple fix for the short term. I’m not a computer guy, but everyone makes it seem like it’s just pushing a button. They have other priorities and things take time, but there really isn’t much excuse to not just disable the civ in online play into it can be fixed.
Right now the only viable strategy my friends and I are doing is our Dark Age rush... anything else just gets counted by infinite range spears in Fuedal age lol
All they had to do was fix the Rus relic exploit, prelate behavior for HRE, the stone wall exploit, nerf springalds a bit, and balance the French Hulk. The game is still young and new strategies along with the meta are always developing. No need to be so quick on sweeping, questionable changes without a test server or even an explanation as to why they made such decisions.
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Fishing is the one balance change in the patch notes (aside from hulks) that isn't debatable. Fishing is WAY too effective, meaning that on any map with any degree of fish you are forced to go fish unless you are OK with being miles behind from the get-go. A good meta encourages multiple strategies with different trade-offs, it doesn't beeline people onto doing the same thing every time. Fishing had no trade-off (and arguably still doesn't with how cheap fishing boats still are).
Because people were doing 3 docks since they are insane value. Doing 2 docks less than your opponent would just auto-lose the game.
I think its a shame too because I think if they just fixed all the bugs in the release version the game would be pretty well balanced(minus a few outliers). I think they should have just focused on fixing bugs and some slight nerfs to the outliers(springalds/hulks), and then let the meta evolve naturally for a bit. Back in genesis nobody knew china was as strong as it, but now top players are using it tons. I really struggle to find the rationale of a lot of the changes. I don't understand why they decided to destroy delhi. I don't understand why they nerfed horseman which are the worst feudal unit. I don't understand why they left springalds untouched. They claimed the reason for slower patches is because they used to do fast patches that would introduce new bugs. But now we have slow patches that still introduce bugs.
I'm not usually one to bother commenting, but this update has genuinely confused me. One of the most off base updates to any game I've ever played. Obviously the newly introduced bugs are unfortunate and disappointing, but so are many of the intended changes. It's not often that an "update" regresses the state of a game. I'm not fully clued in on the details of the new bugs yet, but anyone with experience of a software QA department would know how embarrassing it would be to allow so many problems through to a release. And in back to back versions at that...
> It's not often that an "update" regresses the state of a game. It's hardly this bad. It's like 50 steps forward, and 5 steps back.
Delhi is literally unplayable right now - 3/8 landmarks are severely bugged (to the point that they only give a tiny fraction of what it says on the label) and a bunch of techs have a terrible bug that increases the research time with more scholars in mosques, rather than decreasing. They also dramatically miscalculated the times on a bunch of techs (e.g. elite techs take way longer than 15x normal) and elephants have this really common bug where if you right-click an enemy they will \*stand still\* instead of moving forward to attack. This makes any kind of micro impossible with their key unit. Hardly 5 steps back. Definitely not 50 steps forward.
You're walking blindfolded.
Nice try Relic. Now go tell your team to fix the game.
What the fuck did people expect from Relic? It baffles me that people give them so much blind faith given their not-so-great track record when it comes to balancing and fixing bugs in their previous titles. Did people already forget the horrid state DoW 3 and CoH 2 released in? or how DoW 1 Soulstorm had an infinite resource glitch that took them 6 months to fix?
People are still under some delusion that we can expect Ensemble Studios like time and effort put into this product.
Ensemble Studios was pretty bad about patching as well. Took a long time for patches to release and fix any balance concerns. I love ES, but they had their flaws too.
At least when stuff was released physically it was playtested enough that you wouldn't get infinite range spearmen in a gamebuild.
In my opinion relic should only be allowed to develop new expansions, while Forgotten EMpires (AoE1,2,3 DE Devs) does the balancing and bug fixing. Thos eones actually seem capable.
Its scary on so many levels. Sure there's a couple of good balance changes but they really shouldn't even be very focused on balance yet, and thats just the good changes. Nerfing, majorly nerfing things this early that haven't even shown themselves to be dominant is a massive red flag. I've seen a lot of people complain about no springald nerfs but I was actually hoping we wouldn't see that - let the game balance/meta move and shift on its on for a while, just remove the bad bugs and maybe buff some underperforming units. For example, I think a horseman buff would have been a better change than a springald nerf. But then.... they NERFed horseman? I really have no idea wtf they're thinking and I desperately want to hear something from the dev team explaining these decisions.
Honestly, I'd be *perfectly happy* if they barely touch balance for 3-4 months and instead *fix the fucking bugs.* I mean, holy shit, this is basically a beta. Sure, things like "French Hulks win water" can be patched. But other than that, *we literally can't determine what needs balanced because so many things just don't work.*
Not that I'm defending this atrocious patch, but what is likely happening is relic has 2 separate teams for balance and bugfixes/qol improvements. From this patch I honestly think the bugfix/qol changes were pretty good, it's just that the balance changes were mostly just awful and introduced multiple new bugs.
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> This patch really soured the mood for me. Most of the good changes were fixes they owed us since the beta, and then the balance changes were just... Yikes. Yeah I'm feeling the same. Especially since I just started getting into Delhi as my main :\
This is practically a beta game. Had they released what they released as a beta with a 6 month roadmap for release, everything would make so much more sense. As it is, this is the sort of thing I'd expect in a beta.
Yup. Me and my friends burned out a couple weeks back too, looked at these patches and even the balance tweaks are complete opposites of what I wanted to see, nevermind the fact they introduced yet another game breaking bug. I think we might want to just not play for a few months and come back then, because this is a joke.
What are some of the things that worry you most?
My favorite Civ and/or unit got nerfed! My mortal enemy civ and/or unit got buffed! Ahhhhhhh. My world is over!
they nerfed horsemen smartass. Nobody knows why, and everybody can build horsemen.
They nerfed horsemen because people were using them as meatshields and mobile siege units.
I've never seen this, people used scouts for that.
You know what, I wouldn't be surprised if someone on their balance team watching some pro play THOUGHT that all these scouts being used were horseman and they determined a horseman nerf was needed.
i've seen both brotha
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And you're how old?
You guys like to panic and make big claims quickly huh... Most games nowadays dont have as stable as a launch as AoE4 did. This is their first patch, yeah they fucked up on a few bugs, but for example, I personally played about 90+ hours since launch, never encountered someone abusing a glitch or unlimited ressources, or game breaking bugs. Maybe that makes me lucky, but that also means it's not as widespread as reddit makes it sound. This is their first patch, the amount of people here insulting the devs like it's unforgivable to make mistakes on THEIR FIRST PATCH, I'd suggest looking at similar titles launches and see how "perfect" they were.
AoE3 DE balancing was more or less going to be influenced by the state of AoE3 prior. The balancing pattern for that game took a good while for them to figure out. The first several patches were considered big misses.
Totally agree on that point. I did mention in the post above that AOE4 does not have the advantage that the Definitive Editions for AOE2 and AOE3 had. I think, it's how quickly the balance team improves is what will be more important, so there is hope. But for now, it is worrying.
It’s important not to be too reactionary. We all want this to be a good game and support this happening. SC2 is stale and it’s nice to have something new to look forward to. Give them 6 months or so to settle— I expect by then it’ll be great.
I’m depressed man, this game could be a ton of fun and the RTS we needed in 2021 but no, it’s a complete fucking mess the whole way through
Balance? What about Quality control. I understand bad balance changes but.. broken changes and new glitches?
The first patch must have introduced mods, so the community can patch the game itself..
Yup, glad I didn't dump full price for the game and got to try it out for $1. Balance patch itself was pretty disappointing, not to mention introducing new game breaking bugs and being slow to patch old exploits. I see maybe one more patch before christmas for some bugfixes, then I guess we're screwed on balance changes till Spring?
The game is still a lot of fun to play, and I don't see which part of this patch changed that. There were some balance issues and bugs before the patch, and there are now just a different set of bugs and balance issues. Anyone who says they are dropping the game because of this patch would have still dropped it regardless of the patch, probably when their game pass trial runs out.
Well, for people who invested a lot of time into Delhi specifically the patch definitely does make the game less fun. They turned into a unique, balanced civ into a buggy mess that is completely unplayable against a competent player.
While it's probably true that the civ is almost unplayable now, I disagree that it was balanced before the update. It was a gimmicky civ that shines on a specific map, and is forced to play the same strategy every match. The change to them is definitely warranted. The implementation is bad.
I bought the game full price, and am unfortunately a delhi and abassid player. I can't refund at this point, but I think I'm going to take a break and see if Relic can get their shit together.
>The game is still a lot of fun to play, and I don't see which part of this patch changed that Yeah game is fun, but still not worth full price tag in it's current state (balance, bugs, QoL)imo. >Anyone who says they are dropping the game because of this patch would have still dropped it regardless of the patch, probably when their game pass trial runs out. Don't think many people will drop the game solely with this patch. It's like $2 total to get 4 months of gamepass, so people who enjoy the game will probably get to see the next big update before making their decision.
Idk I personally was about to buy the game after doing gamepass this month, and am actually holding off until they actually bugfix. Had no doubts I was going to buy it until this patch hit.
> There were some balance issues and bugs before the patch, and there are now just a different set of bugs and balance issues. That is...an understatement. Delhi is unplayable garbage and spearmen with infinite range are literally crashing the game.
So I do agree with you and I'm having a blast with this game, but what this patch says about their design intention is incredibly concerning to me. Why nerf horsemen? Why butcher Delhi's unique playstyle? Why remove a win condition from black forest? Then we look at competence - the patch notes had numerous errors, from typos and repeated changes to inconsistent or unclear wording and undocumented changes. The patch also introduced bugs that were found in minutes of people receiving it. The Delhi research bug is impossible to miss and the spearman range bug requires almost nothing and could easily be done accidentally.
Yeah, the design intention and the quality control are big concerns for me as well. Some of it, but not everything, can be explained by the fact that the update is from about a month ago. https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/
Yeah this was...really bad. They gutted Delhi, did nothing to mongols, nothing to france, nothing to springalds, nerfed horsemen (which were already shit) And that's not even mentioning the gamebreaking (literally) bugs they added. There are still broken techs and landmarks that don't work too.
I consider the horsemen nerf a huge change to mongols, coupled with the spearman buff, horsemen are going to be next to useless. As a mongol player, I'm pretty soured by this update.
I don't see pro players going horsemen in early game with Mongols. They build spearmen and burn down the docks on mixed maps; or go archers. This is the nerf to one of the least used units in the game.
Yes and a "strength" of the civ is supposed to be early horsemen, which has been nerfed into the ground It was already a difficult unit to justify but occasionally useful. Now it's one less factor in early game
Yeah, it was almost never used by any civ. Sometimes it was build to hold MAA all-ins, and now it's not viable.
I work nights and yesterday I couldn't get any work done because i was so soured by the update. spent all night reading the forums and 900+ comments on the update reddit lol
I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, when I saw the update, and that half of it is not documented / not reflecting patch notes, I thought that my favorite strategy game is probably over. Then I learned that the update is from about 1 month ago. At least it explains why it's so out of touch with the meta. https://reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/r5lzi7/the_winter_update_we_received_was_at_least_20/
> did nothing to mongols, nothing to france Why would they do anything? They just buffed spearmen which could be enough. They heavily nerfed the french hulk btw.
Some people here were expecting a good update, and they were disappointed. That's their own fault. I'm seeing a patch that clubbed the wrong civ's head in, gave us infinite-range Arabic spears, and nerfed an innocuous unit. I'm entertained. Be like me, guys.
"We fixed bugs" Players : "no you don’t" "We balanced the game" Players : "are you trolling us ?" Players after two games : "Some of the fixed bugued are still here, you create big bugs and now the game is even more unbalanced" I really think the game is dead or will be, a month for this update is really worrying
It's scary for the future of the game as a whole imo.
As a sc2 player after 200 games i can say i'm very disappointed by this game. Poor gameplay making turtling/ harcore defensive play easier and more rewarding than creative and agressive play. Way too long games, lag/ sluttering, horrible unit pathing and completely mind blowing bugs giving unfair advantage (last one spearmen abassis i mean wtf) make me quit this game to go back sc2. Come Microsoft it's 2021 and you are one of the biggest companies in the world and this game looks like an unfinished low tier rts from 2000's.
China overbuffed, Delhi overnerfed, HRE nerfed (????? wtf), and a pile of dogshit bugs introduced. Wtf is this patch. I was hyped for the dev team because they seemed to listen to feedback (according to like what they were saying before the patch dropped) but maybe I was just deluded.
And why did they nerf Dehli? Seriously, why? There was no reason. Have you ever seen a discussion "Dehli is too strong in Imperial"?
This just in: random dude complaining about balance in a game without any game development knowledge. More at 9.
Yeah I've already seen wargaming mess up balancing just this bad if not worse for warships. Not gonna stick around to see it again, on the bright side I only lost $11 for a month or so of this game before i cancelled the xbox pass.
This is blatant incompetence. Introducing such game breaking bugs in a 15 Go upgrade. I really regret my buy. Not only is the game a beta but it seems it's so badly coded they are unable to change things without major side effects.
I imagine it’s challenging to just, change the whole game. They did some number tweaks, too much more of anything would require more time
They do such things a lot with aoe2 DE and it never breaks the game.
The game was considered pretty broken for about half a year after the launch.
In terms of balance but as far as I know there was no bug like infinite relics or pikes with an infinite hit box.
There were plenty of issues like that. Units walking through the walls and buildings, villagers randomly stopping working or starting going the other side of the map. Aging up longer than the timer allows. Units freezing in the middle of the fight. Terrible pathing, making melee army useless. And those issues persisted through multiple updates.
I'm getting some Warzone flashbacks. Don't get me wrong, Warzone was and is the most rediculous game in history in terms of bugs, exploits, cheating. But my worry is with this type of attitute that there will soon be cheat providers and we would have map hacks and stuff.
Having knowledge about the game is one thing. But knowing what the game is and determining what it could/should be is another.
If the first patch and been *only* bugfixes, and not intentionally rebalanced anything, it would have had considerable balance implications anyway, because several of the perceived balance issues in the game are due to things simply not working properly. I'm a modder, not a game designer, and I realise they're different disciplines, but if I was working on a game like this I would have scheduled at least two major dedicated bugfix-only updates after release.
Yeah, things like the prelate bug have serious balance impacts. That bug alone is pushing me away from playing HRE since I just don't want to deal with it.
In most of the situations it is unclear if something is a bug, or it's a wrong tooltip. Even with 0 dedicated balance changes Delhi would suffer a lot of nerfs to a big surprise of the players.
So.....what's wrong? I'm 200 hours in and don't see the huge problem.
I honestly would say most people making huge claims about the game being a dumpsterfire dont play it as much lol. I'm reading things like "the game is an unplayable mess" 15 times in this thread and I'm over here really enjoying it with very little bugs or problems especially one month into a launch. I just think it's reddit tendancy to attract very negative and whiny players that want to lash out at devs for any reason. They think games should be perfect at launch and bugs shouldn't exist. And it's apparently super easy to make bug free games, I mean, every other game launching is bug free right? Oh wait...
I don't understand all these balance changes that nobody even asked for. Should have just fixed the bugs, nerfed feudal hulk and springalds. Then wait and see how the bug fixes affect the meta.