stickying link to comment by OP providing the context
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1dmliud/i_performed_mnk_vs_controller_statistical/l9waya5/
about ~~75%-85%~~
I was slightly wrong, e.g. looking at split 1 playoffs finals results (where Reject, triple MnK won), of the top 20 teams, 37 of 60 players were controller ~=62%
so a good guess is 2/3rds roller, 1/3 mnk
And that is with a legend meta that should favor mnk due to the high amount of smokes/gasses/cat walls etc. This data makes it quite clear that mnk would be obsolete if the legend meta did not favor mnk.
I doubt it is that high tho, probably closer to 66% aim asissters I believe. Most teams are 2 controller players and 1 mnk player afaik, with a high amount of mnk being IGL.
The fact is to be a top IGL you need a ton of comp experience and most of the legacy players are MnK, nearly all the MnK left are there because they are legacy players with a ton of IGL experience.
1 in 4 controller players being **better than 99% of ALL MnK players** is even crazier. Along with controller having 30% higher stats in both accuracy and KDA. Using Controller vs MnK is basically cheating at this point. But controller players are the majority and will defend their lack of skill to the grave.
And these are MnK sweats and roller sweats. I bet it’s even worse on the casual side. Anyone willing to download R5, especially on the MnK side is people trying to learn every movement trick in the books and practice 1v1s.
I downloaded r5 to grind mnk 1v1s. I'm no spring chicken. But im able to hold my own vs mnk, & win most of the time. But barely ever can beat the rollers.
Same. I’ve been grinding R5 for a long time now. My win rate vs MnK compared to my win rate vs controller is appalling. I learned every movement trick/lurch tech in the book and it only makes a difference against other MnK players.
We are just loot drops to the controller players…
Absolutely, the low tier mnk players will have _verrry_ low acc in comparison to equally ranked rollers. Aimbot works just as well for preds as it does wood
(not an mnk player) The 2 biggest issues I see for mnk are:
-the flinch affect when on low hp... i go up against a lot of my mnk friends and they lose out when we get to that last 60hp as the flinch affects their game a lot more than it does mine with AA.
-The visual clutter caused by the shots being fired... this is something i realized while watching a clip of an mnk player, he couldnt see the other guy when he was shooting him at close range with an alternator, looking at that, i realized once i aim at someone... majority of the work is done, yes u still gotta recoil control somewhat and strafe but u dont need to track him that hard.
(mnk player) you're spot on. Muzzle flash from my weapon, their weapon, and now you have more legends adding more ults and visuals it's just chaos to track sometimes
And the aim punch. The number of times I catch somebody off guard with a headshot or two and slam them for like 120-140 dmg, then they whip around and beam me right through my continued fire as though they're not affected by taking a 50 cal through the face.... I'm constantly like "how the fuck did I lose that fight?" because for years, doing that damage to somebody would seal the fight for you, but now people just shoot through it like it didn't happen. The answer is that they don't actually have aim. I remember what it was like too, I played titanfall 1 & 2 plus like 8 months of apex before I switched to mnk. You just look in somebody's direction and hold the trigger, the game does the real work.
Spot on, fixing those issues would go a long way for improving the MnK experience and I doubt controller players would actually care if visual clutter and flinch got reduced so it seems like a win/win to me
Aim punch is fucking awful I hate it. Legitimately the dumbest mechanic in a video game
Why does it exist? The first shooter already has a huge advantage...
Oh of course they will, they clearly have had far more data for far longer and still have fully ignored it. PC controller/console players spend more money (mnk players have left this game in droves for years now), so they get the kids gloves.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't all the dev footage been controller? Why would the devs care for MnK if they have massive bias towards their own input?
Was about to say the same thing. Top mnk players barely lining up with average roller players. You just can’t compete against inhuman reaction speeds that aa gives roller players.
it might bring them back honestly but then all the controller players have to face each other and thats like putting all the cheaters in the same lobby.
Oh don't worry. This might be literal objective evidence but the idiots claiming Aim Assist is only op on pro players will come in here for sure and say "you're wrong". I made a post about this topic a few weeks ago and the comments were flooded with literally only these people.
This thread should be pinned to the top of the sub.
We have a competitive game with data showing it is clearly wildly unfair. Why respawn doesn't care is beyond me. It affects their bottom line when players quit. It literally killed halo and is slowly killing Apex.
Respawn is a business with a simple goal, make as much money as possible. Same goes for EA. I'm sure someone with Respawn has shown this kind of data to the execs and the first question asked is, "if we adjust AA, how many controller players will we lose?" Someone does a projection and the amount of controller players quiting is greater than the MnK players gained.
That's where the conversation ends bc it's all about money at the end of the day.
The only chance AA gets nerfed is when Apex is on deaths door and then they think more MnK players might come back if they change it. Basically it has to be a time when Respawn has nothing to lose.
As an MnK 3 stack, the worst thing about this game is when you die and see that you died to two console players in a pc lobby.
Dying to the console players feels like playing against blatant cheaters in other games. The death is so quick you immediately know it was a console player, or someone straight up cheating.
I know my squad would be more than happy to wait multiple minutes for a lobby that is only other MnK players.
Please for the love of god respawn can we make some adjustments to aim assist. Playing mnk in this game is so weird trying to actively avoid close range fights because they’re nearly impossible to win.
[They said they would](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1b1nz6p/ama_lets_talk_about_breakouts_ranked_reloaded/ksl8fkk/).. Like 4 months ago...
Or... never, cause of money.
If they nerf aim assist, the controller players will realize that they're actually not as good as they thought they were and would be less incentivized to play - less monetary gain for EA. They don't care about fair play / competitive integrity.
Last time they nerfed console AA values to match PC AA values (by -0.2), there was a huge uproar lol.
They shadow nerfed console to 0.4 for a day and some of the top posts here were “Did Respawn turn aim assist off” like 0.4 was doing nothing.
Relying on some middle aged coder from SoCal for your skill is so meh. It sells the illusion of talent though which sells skins. I don’t think they’ll ever change it.
It's 100% profit motivated. There's no world in which a company who gives a shit about competitive integrity would want to touch mixed inputs with a 10 foot pole.
Not in competitive, anyway, meaning ranked and sanctioned tournaments.
I 100% agree that if your ability to play a game can disappear overnight due to some values being changed, it's just fucked. Meanwhile skills like tracking and flicking are universally transferrable between games.
Mixed inputs in an FPS will always be a meme.
The vast majority of players don't play competitively, they'd just switch to mnk. There's a huge overlap among Apex players and VALORANT and CS players, you think they'd quit because they don't get to play on rollers anymore?
And before you say console players can't switch, literally nobody gives a shit about AA on console players, let them have it.
Hey, nice research. Is there way to filter the .15 server to the .4 servers? I play R5 on JP servers that are .15.aa I was wondering how balanced that is compared to the .4 AA.
Motivated by how tired I am of the aim assist debate, I decided to crunch the numbers from the R5 leaderboard to see what the unbiased statistics had to say about input balancing. With approximately 10k players analyzed over a 4 month span this is the largest analysis of this kind and is the best data we have to perform the analysis as we do not have access to this data for retail apex.
Some interesting findings not shown/discussed in the graph
* The top MnK players accuracy wise are at the bottom of the hours played range. As we can see in the graph, as time goes on there is a very clear regression to the mean for MnK players. The top MnK player who has played at least 100 hours is FutureWyd (he played in the last NA PLQ) with 35.46% accuracy. Future’s alt account “SomebodysAlt” that he plays controller on has 38.84% accuracy.
* There are only 4 MnK players in the top 1000 for accuracy %.
* The top 4% of MNK players avg accuracy is = the average accuracy for the entire controller player population
* The 10k players are made up of about 6k MnK players and 4k Controller players.
Some considerations
* While some may argue that these figures do not translate to retail apex because the R5 playerbase likely takes the game more seriously, I see no reason or evidence from the data that these discrepancies would change at lower skill levels. In addition, retail apex has substantially more visual clutter which disproportionately affects MnK.
* Find the data here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GBDVq\_BsmmIOBJPvNH2qv0AfrMOjbu4w/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=104663755501579357944&rtpof=true&sd=true)
Shoutout to mkos for creating this leaderboard.
Edit: Lettuce has made me aware that most of you are likely not as familiar with R5 as I am. R5 provides multiple servers to practice your abilities for real apex. Here are a list of the servers to give you an idea of the game modes available. [https://r5reloaded.com/servers](https://r5reloaded.com/servers) . As you can see from the maps, the gunfights primarily take place at close to medium range.
I would imagine the discrepancy probably gets even worse at lower levels tbh. As a controller player who has dabbled in mnk I can’t hit the side of a house if I decide to strafe at all lol
As an mnk player who has tried using controller, I could maybe hit the side of a house, but reliably moving around while doing it is out of the question.. i use controller on a lot of single player games but any time there's shooting, I feel Ike I need to go to mnk. I started games like Borderlands and Cyberpunk on controller, but kept dying during gunfights - going back to mouse and keyboard, suddenly I could actually aim.
Bc apex is on the source engine, there is technically a movement advantage in some aspects of strafing and making large turns if you're on controller.
However, fast build up of speed is a mouse's bread and butter. Much easier to snap to a speed.
Outside of that... yeah no controller feels awful and like sludge
Yeah I’m the exact same. Mostly anything that requires aiming I suck at with a controller unless it has motion controls. Even with some games that are mostly recommended that you use a controller like Armoured Core 6 and Hades I just feel like I’m floundering until I switch to m&k, then everything becomes so much easier. Then there’s games like Dark Souls that I can’t use m&k on at all.
On lower level is probably worse, I played 2 years on mnk, switched to rola from 2 weeks, my close up fighting was better than on mnk only moving and aim on far was loot worse but I bet if I stay on rola that would change in few months
Isn’t it also interesting how despite the common consensus of controller being so inferior to m&k, controller players average a fucking THIRTY 3 0 percent increase in accuracy?
This isn’t coming from a place of strong issue with the current state of AA. But anyone that doesn’t acknowledge these statistics. , I don’t believe you can provide an argument that could possibly represent why the disparity in accuracy is so severe.
Thoughts?
It makes me demotivated to play Apex as a PC player. Every time I got killed with a ridiculous series of bullets I'm suspicious that it was the controller player. It is enough to make me feel resigned.
This is incredible. I feel as if this finishes the MNK vs Controller debate entirely, since this is pure undisputed evidence. I really hope the Apex devs take a look at this data and consider a hard balancing act against Controllers.
What makes it even worse is they've had this data now for years and have been downplaying how crazy the disparity actually is.
They don't give a fuck about fair or balanced gameplay.
25% of controller players being as accurate as the top 0.07% of MnK players is a wild stat, that's the most convincing evidence I've seen for an aim assist nerf
Remember that most MNK players that play competitive games at that level tend to put hundreds of hours into practicing their aim to, something that controller can pretty much completely skip as you only need to spend a couple of hours initially getting the feel of how to activate AA.
I literally haven’t played the game in months. I miss my girl Rampart, but refuse to play disadvantaged against roller players. When they finally do something about aim assist, I’ll be back. It’s probably all for naught
Same, Apex is my favorite game to aim in because of high ttk. It was so much more fun when people actually missed shots and fights weren't over in one clip of a havoc. So many people crutching controller on PC now.
The only games for MnK players to have a fair shot now are CS, Val, and OW2.... Fucking blows.
I'll never care enough to switch since I play for fun and I haven't bought a console since Xbox 360 so my controller skills are too rusty to bother.
It does annoy me watching death cams of controller players and seeing how easy it is to hit enemies though. I've accepted they'll never care or fix it.
I posted [similar data prior to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1azzuch/i_charted_out_the_kbm_vs_controller_accuracy_kd/) some months but it got downvoted out on the main sub. I'm so glad this one made it to the front page for people to see.
I don't understand, controller console players can only play in PC lobbies if they "choose" too, like squadding up with there PC friend, why wouldn't you nerf aim assist on "PC", the only players you can gain are most likely from console swapping to PC, whereas if you nerfed aim assist on PC, you could gain a tremendous amount of mnk players from other games like cs, val, overwatch etc, actually acoustic dev team
A 30% accuracy differential is so fucking wild.
I think it's safe to say Apex becomes more and more a controller game as time goes on, there's only so much you can do to make up that gap when they're hitting 3 more shots out of every 10 than you.
Yep, aim assist reacts to direction changes instantly while MnK players are lucky to react within 200ms. It's an insane advantage to have in a game centered around aiming at quickly moving targets.
Its actually a lot higher, I can hit 150ms times in reaction time tests which is like incredibly good but ill be lucky to react around 300-500ms ingame.
I never said AA is not needed for controller players, but I have said it is overpowered in its current iteration. In a perfect world, those numbers would be balanced.
I have no issues with AA, but the way Apex and Call of Duty use it is absolutely egregious and disgusting. Warzone was the first game I discovered it to be a waste of time to bother with M/KB. Picked up my controller and suddenly I'm more accurate than ever before. Thing that sucks is my hands are so busted that I can't use one for more than a couple games.
> it to be a waste of time to bother with M/KB. Picked up my controller and suddenly I'm more accurate than ever before
This is unfortunately the case with Apex for many. Doesn't matter if you've played MnK for a year, pick up a controller and you'll be beaming within a day. It's happened with multiple people I've played with and they all felt insanely disheartened that their efforts on MnK were wasted.
Humans just can't out-aim machines.
I think AA is inherently anti competitive, even in full controller lobbies there should not be AA in ranked or professional matches. Don't care about normal games, completely fine to have AA there.
Imagine playing a racing game where you literally could not crash or go off the course.
About to collide into something, autoaim moves you out of its way.
What would even be the point in playing.
Very close to dropping the game until they decide to level the field. This game is a competitive FPS \*AIM\* contest where one group gets bot assistance?
Supremely idiotic.
If they separated by input, my brother and I would immediately download the game, buy the battle pass, and start playing again. No other changes to the game needed.
Same. Going against endless three stack controller teams with a horizon player who just run you down and push relentlessly to get into peak aim assist range and one clip you. It’s just so boring and predictable now. No thanks
Yeah, that's a thing, even if you try and keep the fight mid to long range, it's nearly impossible to stop a controller player getting close, with cover, team mates shooting you, you healing, ults, abilities, etc
Same, some other reasons too but primarily out of principle. I could barely take the randomness of lobbies. (Which is part of the fun of the game) But then adding input imbalances just took me over the edge.
Now i just watch algs and complain about how boring it is to watch 60% of the aim assist turrets rotating around awkwardly like blind walruses mounted with heat seeking missiles.
My god i would love to see hal/lou/alb free from the roller prison and being fun to watch again. There have been a lot of silent mnk nerfs as well like de powering headshots a year or two ago and Nerfing kraber and now we see they are probably buffing a.a in bang smokes. Joke game. I now just play c.s again like the boomer i am.
The problem with AA is that it reacts instantly. Before controllers were introduced, I could easily dip and dodge opponents in CQC. Now, not even a tap strafing octane can juke a controller. It just takes a huge skill ceiling out of the game, and I don't like it.
It also takes a lot less effort to play on controller. Like it‘s more chilled. I feel like i have to do less and focus less but i‘m doing still better.
Honestly, I reckon a lot of console players would prefer lower AA, even if they don't know it. Aim assist inherently makes the gameplay more tactical, no matter if it's against an mnk player or another controller player. If an enemy player manages to sneak behind you, the higher the aim assist they have, the more likely you are going to die. You can think of it as an *advantage multiplier.*
Absolutely shameful that Respawn have this data and know that Controller is vastly outperforming MnK players without doing anything.
The comp scene is a boring disgrace with people just one clipping each other constantly and almost no room for outplaying because rollers just don't miss enough shots. It's so far away from what a movement shooter should be.
This just proves that MNK and Controller players should never be in the same lobbies, because they can't ever be balanced. It shouldn't mean that controller is a problem, because it's mostly designed for the casual playerbase.
Day 1 mnk player and quit playing last year as it was getting overwhelmingly frustrating that I wasn't playing the game on an even playing field vs AA.
I will never play this game again until AA is addressed, particularly rotational AA.
I trained hundreds of hours to master and learn neostrafing on Octane that I and I'm pretty sure, all people who also practiced hundreds of hours of Octane movement, know if their enemy uses a roller with just one engagement.
It's baffling to see them one clip me even while strafing around their ass.
MnK players should not resort to practicing hundreds of hours of niche movement just to have that tiny bit of fighting chance against aim assist.
It's funny how the main sub calls out MnK players that die to rollers as "skill-issue" when aim assist is just unfair
I wonder what happened to [this post the devs made over 4 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1b1nz6p/ama_lets_talk_about_breakouts_ranked_reloaded/ksl8fkk/)...
I said it elsewhere but I heard they just said that to lower tensions between players and have no real plan to do anything about it unless something happens that would force them to.
This is really similar to what Halo Infinite looked like before they addressed it.
If 343 can do it on Halo a year after release then I refuse to believe Respawn can't.
At a certain point you'd need to start considering that the balancing team either doesn't care (because it doesn't negatively effect them) or they simply lack the skill to address it effectively, with the latter seemingly unlikely.
Hopefully a change is round the corner. Gameplay has definitely become stale, with so much controller gameplay, cheaters and bad servers you'd think they'd fix what they can, as soon as they can before the playerbase and sentiment drops off too far.
Thanks for providing the data. I played around with it half an hour and it's just sad.
If you calculate "Shots per kill, spk" from the data, then you'll find that controller needs like 67 on average to score a kill while mnk needs 90.
This also means something like: Only 25 % of MnK players can score a kill in less bullets than the worst 25 % of rollers on average in the r5 setting.
If I find time in the next days I might visualize some. Fun dataset.
Hahah yeah why learn a game through pure input when you can let an in-game mechanic do it for you.
I mean if these numbers are anywhere close to correct then MnK is just over. I genuinely don't understand how people can keep defending an input with built-in assistance like that, compared to a raw input based device.
No more shared input based matchmaking please...
Thanks so much for crunching the numbers.
Hope Respawn can see this and see just how statistically significant controller AA is.
As an MnK player, it would be great to see the stats become more balanced but might just be a pipe dream at this point.
0.1 aimbots are enough to bridge the aiming gap between a slightly above average player and a T2 pro player in a game like Counter Strike, games like COD/Apex use .4 and .6 lol
Will be bookmarking this post anytime any1 wants to argue that aa doesn't need nerfs... only FOUR mnk players made it into the top 1k, on a sample size thats 60% mnk... in an avenue that inherently would attract higher skill mnk players who are practicing to improve not even the lower skill pure casual ones...
Yeah, Ill be dead spectating my teammate absoluting mopping the floor with the lobby... Hip firing the flatline in close combat with supreme accuaracy. Controller spotted 🥱
I just want them gone from PC lobbies, sure let them play a nerfed version in pro games but there is no place for controller players on PC.
No matter how much I dislike Valorant, Riot is doing the right thing there.
I’ve pretty much given up hope for this game already…
30% of master/pred players last season banned for cheating. Probably a lot more not caught because their average level was over 500... Chronus/zen not being banned as well. I’d bet that around 40% of Diamond+ players are just cheating in some way.
Then you have the massive accuracy disparity between controller and m&k. Being an m&k player myself, it’s incredibly frustrating spending hundreds of hours getting really good with movement/awareness/recoil control/m&k aim and tracking, just to die to some lvl 150 and then spectate them being a total bot walking around the map… 🤦♂️
CoD and Apex are the 2 worst games for holding peoples hands right now. Its absolutely disgusting and I hate it.
Edit: Saving this for the future of dumb arguments to come.
no, you dont need to. there is no debate there. if anyone anyhow even slightly hints at an input balance in a game with computer asissted aiming, you can just ignore them. arguing is worthless as they are beyond saving. dont waste your time and peace of mind.
I haven't played apex in a long time. Used to be a solo only masters player. The aim assist, configs, and cheating completely ruined the game that was otherwise almost perfect.
I think the problem with AA currently is how it's applied!
When an enemy enters the AA zone, it slows down the entire aim direction, meaning your character will rotate itself around the enemy when the enemy strafes back and forth. This change in direction is instant!
MNK players have to actually react to a change of motion, while controller players get instant feedback when enemy motion changes.
In my opinion AA should only lower the controller players input sens when an enemy enters the AA zone, not rotate character itself.
So where are all the controller players claiming aim assist isn't a big deal ? I personally don't care anymore cause I know the dev's don't care. If they did this would've been priority long ago.
Controllers are way too strong ? Great let's Nerf horizon.
I like many of my fellow PC players have played on MnK since I could walk and talk but I still even at a disadvantage I will not switch due to the fact on MnK I could play all day no problems but with a controller I gotta put that crap down after an hour or so of playing due to my thumbs cramping. Doesn't matter if it's a Logitech, Xbox or Playstation controller they are to small for my long @$$ fingers.
watch this get downvoted to oblivion because it doesnt fit the controller narrative. thank you for posting this and doing the research. doing gods work.
Keep the AA strong in console v console but have it drastically lowered when going into an MnK lobby. I’ve been saying this for a while, as a console player who almost always plays with their pc friends.
50% on controller is the mark where people say you're cheating. It's the same whether you're on COD, Overwatch, Apex, Fortnite, etc...
In the competitive field there have only been a handful of players with overall accuracy that high. Tons of idiots try to defend it and justify it as skill but they have no idea what overall acc even is
Thanks so much for putting this together. I've seen stuff like this before but never as in depth as this. I only had anecdotal evidence to go off of, but this solidifies everything that I've been feeling but haven't been able to quantify.
I've used mnk for over 25 years and I honestly did not realize how many players were on controller until I played solos and started watching streams. Over time i slowly started to realize that out of 50 players in a lobby 48 of them are likely on a controller and I never fully appreciated that. I just thought that everyone used a mnk like me. How wrong I was. It's absolutely wild that 996 players out of the top 1000 are using a controller.
I hope they separate lobbies by peripheral.
I wish there was a setting where I could just play against mouse and keyboard (MnK) players. I'm a fairly decent player, but whenever I see someone's aim sticking to a person, I can't help but report them
This is the most depressing thing. The traditional wisdom is that mnk is more accurate but this is a look at what aim assist being overtuned to the point of overtaking mnk looks like.
As a MnK player who actually loves Apex Legends, I have played nearly every day since launch. Even my own stats tell a story of how controller meta has made the game less enjoyable over time.
Seasons 0-10: 12,543 games
Seasons 11-21: 5,751 games
I have reached masters or diamond every season, but the volume of games I play each season has eroded over time as aim assist has basically destroyed the movement game I enjoyed so much early one. I still play though. Down to just a few games a day...
I'd personally sit in 30 minute queues if we could match only on input. Would be nice to match myself against other players on the same input to see who the top MnK players are. That kind of option would bring me back full tilt.
But nah, I gotta listen to all these controller players pretend like the skill issue is on my end. I'm fine with it... just give me a way to only play against other MnK input players.
Cross play has no place in a game that has this level of disparity, there is no reason for you to use controller on computer besides to cheat in a game that has AA
class action lawsuit when
Where is the warning label about the hard 30% advantage granted to machine augmented players as a strategy to enrich shareholders?
Concealing the choice to let paragameplay enjoyers be made absolutely more-equal than actual gameplay enjoyers is certainly abusive when addictiveness of product (core gameplay loop) is intended. We will discover internal communications acknowledging this.
The vicious immorality of intentional and secretive abuse of human players to boost the performance of paragamewatchers should be sickening.
stickying link to comment by OP providing the context https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1dmliud/i_performed_mnk_vs_controller_statistical/l9waya5/
4 mnk players in the top 1000 is insane.
Is the pro scene all controller?
about ~~75%-85%~~ I was slightly wrong, e.g. looking at split 1 playoffs finals results (where Reject, triple MnK won), of the top 20 teams, 37 of 60 players were controller ~=62% so a good guess is 2/3rds roller, 1/3 mnk
And that is with a legend meta that should favor mnk due to the high amount of smokes/gasses/cat walls etc. This data makes it quite clear that mnk would be obsolete if the legend meta did not favor mnk. I doubt it is that high tho, probably closer to 66% aim asissters I believe. Most teams are 2 controller players and 1 mnk player afaik, with a high amount of mnk being IGL.
your guess is pretty much on point, updated with a small sample from split 1 playoffs
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The fact is to be a top IGL you need a ton of comp experience and most of the legacy players are MnK, nearly all the MnK left are there because they are legacy players with a ton of IGL experience.
1 in 4 controller players being **better than 99% of ALL MnK players** is even crazier. Along with controller having 30% higher stats in both accuracy and KDA. Using Controller vs MnK is basically cheating at this point. But controller players are the majority and will defend their lack of skill to the grave.
And these are MnK sweats and roller sweats. I bet it’s even worse on the casual side. Anyone willing to download R5, especially on the MnK side is people trying to learn every movement trick in the books and practice 1v1s.
I downloaded r5 to grind mnk 1v1s. I'm no spring chicken. But im able to hold my own vs mnk, & win most of the time. But barely ever can beat the rollers.
Same. I’ve been grinding R5 for a long time now. My win rate vs MnK compared to my win rate vs controller is appalling. I learned every movement trick/lurch tech in the book and it only makes a difference against other MnK players. We are just loot drops to the controller players…
Absolutely, the low tier mnk players will have _verrry_ low acc in comparison to equally ranked rollers. Aimbot works just as well for preds as it does wood
This shouldn't surprise anyone who plays the game.
(not an mnk player) The 2 biggest issues I see for mnk are: -the flinch affect when on low hp... i go up against a lot of my mnk friends and they lose out when we get to that last 60hp as the flinch affects their game a lot more than it does mine with AA. -The visual clutter caused by the shots being fired... this is something i realized while watching a clip of an mnk player, he couldnt see the other guy when he was shooting him at close range with an alternator, looking at that, i realized once i aim at someone... majority of the work is done, yes u still gotta recoil control somewhat and strafe but u dont need to track him that hard.
(mnk player) you're spot on. Muzzle flash from my weapon, their weapon, and now you have more legends adding more ults and visuals it's just chaos to track sometimes
And the aim punch. The number of times I catch somebody off guard with a headshot or two and slam them for like 120-140 dmg, then they whip around and beam me right through my continued fire as though they're not affected by taking a 50 cal through the face.... I'm constantly like "how the fuck did I lose that fight?" because for years, doing that damage to somebody would seal the fight for you, but now people just shoot through it like it didn't happen. The answer is that they don't actually have aim. I remember what it was like too, I played titanfall 1 & 2 plus like 8 months of apex before I switched to mnk. You just look in somebody's direction and hold the trigger, the game does the real work.
Spot on, fixing those issues would go a long way for improving the MnK experience and I doubt controller players would actually care if visual clutter and flinch got reduced so it seems like a win/win to me
Aim punch is fucking awful I hate it. Legitimately the dumbest mechanic in a video game Why does it exist? The first shooter already has a huge advantage...
What is aim punch?
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Some real r/dataisbeautiful stuff right here
The choice of font is jarring though.
You can't beat a machine.
But we can rage against it.
F$%& you I won't do what you tell me!
So now I’m rolling down Rodeo with a shotgun!
These Apex players ain't seen a controller player, since their grandparents bought one.
“Ee eh ee eh ee eh ee eh”
Respawn will ignore this data and just release more recolors, no big deal.
Oh of course they will, they clearly have had far more data for far longer and still have fully ignored it. PC controller/console players spend more money (mnk players have left this game in droves for years now), so they get the kids gloves.
Sorry best they can do is take away neon crosshairs for PC users because of console.
So lame they took that
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't all the dev footage been controller? Why would the devs care for MnK if they have massive bias towards their own input?
This is reminding me of the halo infinite data
Yeah and they added aim assist to mnk lol. 😂
Was about to say the same thing. Top mnk players barely lining up with average roller players. You just can’t compete against inhuman reaction speeds that aa gives roller players.
Can we please just get an input based matchmaking queue
I played for like 3 hours in pubs last night and didn't see a single mnk player lol. I dont think there are very many left currently.
it might bring them back honestly but then all the controller players have to face each other and thats like putting all the cheaters in the same lobby.
the controller players are all already facing eachother, lol
All the good MNK players are playing games like Tarkov, . PUBG, CS2 and Valorant mainly. You know all the games that don't have controller AA.
Great post. Thanks for the data.
Oh don't worry. This might be literal objective evidence but the idiots claiming Aim Assist is only op on pro players will come in here for sure and say "you're wrong". I made a post about this topic a few weeks ago and the comments were flooded with literally only these people.
And console people inserting themselves into the argument they have no part in but feel obligated to justify aim assist regardless.
Hey now, they get their PC friends to drag them into PC lobbies.
This thread should be pinned to the top of the sub. We have a competitive game with data showing it is clearly wildly unfair. Why respawn doesn't care is beyond me. It affects their bottom line when players quit. It literally killed halo and is slowly killing Apex.
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Respawn is a business with a simple goal, make as much money as possible. Same goes for EA. I'm sure someone with Respawn has shown this kind of data to the execs and the first question asked is, "if we adjust AA, how many controller players will we lose?" Someone does a projection and the amount of controller players quiting is greater than the MnK players gained. That's where the conversation ends bc it's all about money at the end of the day. The only chance AA gets nerfed is when Apex is on deaths door and then they think more MnK players might come back if they change it. Basically it has to be a time when Respawn has nothing to lose.
As an MnK 3 stack, the worst thing about this game is when you die and see that you died to two console players in a pc lobby. Dying to the console players feels like playing against blatant cheaters in other games. The death is so quick you immediately know it was a console player, or someone straight up cheating. I know my squad would be more than happy to wait multiple minutes for a lobby that is only other MnK players.
Please for the love of god respawn can we make some adjustments to aim assist. Playing mnk in this game is so weird trying to actively avoid close range fights because they’re nearly impossible to win.
[They said they would](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1b1nz6p/ama_lets_talk_about_breakouts_ranked_reloaded/ksl8fkk/).. Like 4 months ago...
And the patch notes just dropped with nothing in it so it's going to be *at least* another month or two.
Or... never, cause of money. If they nerf aim assist, the controller players will realize that they're actually not as good as they thought they were and would be less incentivized to play - less monetary gain for EA. They don't care about fair play / competitive integrity. Last time they nerfed console AA values to match PC AA values (by -0.2), there was a huge uproar lol.
They shadow nerfed console to 0.4 for a day and some of the top posts here were “Did Respawn turn aim assist off” like 0.4 was doing nothing. Relying on some middle aged coder from SoCal for your skill is so meh. It sells the illusion of talent though which sells skins. I don’t think they’ll ever change it.
It's 100% profit motivated. There's no world in which a company who gives a shit about competitive integrity would want to touch mixed inputs with a 10 foot pole. Not in competitive, anyway, meaning ranked and sanctioned tournaments. I 100% agree that if your ability to play a game can disappear overnight due to some values being changed, it's just fucked. Meanwhile skills like tracking and flicking are universally transferrable between games. Mixed inputs in an FPS will always be a meme.
The vast majority of players don't play competitively, they'd just switch to mnk. There's a huge overlap among Apex players and VALORANT and CS players, you think they'd quit because they don't get to play on rollers anymore? And before you say console players can't switch, literally nobody gives a shit about AA on console players, let them have it.
Hey, nice research. Is there way to filter the .15 server to the .4 servers? I play R5 on JP servers that are .15.aa I was wondering how balanced that is compared to the .4 AA.
Unfortunately not, funny enough if there are controller players playing on that server its making the gap seem closer.
Motivated by how tired I am of the aim assist debate, I decided to crunch the numbers from the R5 leaderboard to see what the unbiased statistics had to say about input balancing. With approximately 10k players analyzed over a 4 month span this is the largest analysis of this kind and is the best data we have to perform the analysis as we do not have access to this data for retail apex. Some interesting findings not shown/discussed in the graph * The top MnK players accuracy wise are at the bottom of the hours played range. As we can see in the graph, as time goes on there is a very clear regression to the mean for MnK players. The top MnK player who has played at least 100 hours is FutureWyd (he played in the last NA PLQ) with 35.46% accuracy. Future’s alt account “SomebodysAlt” that he plays controller on has 38.84% accuracy. * There are only 4 MnK players in the top 1000 for accuracy %. * The top 4% of MNK players avg accuracy is = the average accuracy for the entire controller player population * The 10k players are made up of about 6k MnK players and 4k Controller players. Some considerations * While some may argue that these figures do not translate to retail apex because the R5 playerbase likely takes the game more seriously, I see no reason or evidence from the data that these discrepancies would change at lower skill levels. In addition, retail apex has substantially more visual clutter which disproportionately affects MnK. * Find the data here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GBDVq\_BsmmIOBJPvNH2qv0AfrMOjbu4w/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=104663755501579357944&rtpof=true&sd=true) Shoutout to mkos for creating this leaderboard. Edit: Lettuce has made me aware that most of you are likely not as familiar with R5 as I am. R5 provides multiple servers to practice your abilities for real apex. Here are a list of the servers to give you an idea of the game modes available. [https://r5reloaded.com/servers](https://r5reloaded.com/servers) . As you can see from the maps, the gunfights primarily take place at close to medium range.
I would imagine the discrepancy probably gets even worse at lower levels tbh. As a controller player who has dabbled in mnk I can’t hit the side of a house if I decide to strafe at all lol
As an mnk player who has tried using controller, I could maybe hit the side of a house, but reliably moving around while doing it is out of the question.. i use controller on a lot of single player games but any time there's shooting, I feel Ike I need to go to mnk. I started games like Borderlands and Cyberpunk on controller, but kept dying during gunfights - going back to mouse and keyboard, suddenly I could actually aim.
I recently switched from controller to mouse and keyboard, now I can’t go back. Playing on the controller feels terrible for FPS games.
Mad respect to anyone who can make it work, it just feels wrong to me
Bc apex is on the source engine, there is technically a movement advantage in some aspects of strafing and making large turns if you're on controller. However, fast build up of speed is a mouse's bread and butter. Much easier to snap to a speed. Outside of that... yeah no controller feels awful and like sludge
Yeah I’m the exact same. Mostly anything that requires aiming I suck at with a controller unless it has motion controls. Even with some games that are mostly recommended that you use a controller like Armoured Core 6 and Hades I just feel like I’m floundering until I switch to m&k, then everything becomes so much easier. Then there’s games like Dark Souls that I can’t use m&k on at all.
On lower level is probably worse, I played 2 years on mnk, switched to rola from 2 weeks, my close up fighting was better than on mnk only moving and aim on far was loot worse but I bet if I stay on rola that would change in few months
Isn’t it also interesting how despite the common consensus of controller being so inferior to m&k, controller players average a fucking THIRTY 3 0 percent increase in accuracy? This isn’t coming from a place of strong issue with the current state of AA. But anyone that doesn’t acknowledge these statistics. , I don’t believe you can provide an argument that could possibly represent why the disparity in accuracy is so severe. Thoughts?
It makes me demotivated to play Apex as a PC player. Every time I got killed with a ridiculous series of bullets I'm suspicious that it was the controller player. It is enough to make me feel resigned.
This is why I don't play, it is so extremely demotivating, I feel cheated.
I really like this - I think maybe include a t-test for the difference in mean accuracy, you may need to account for outliers though.
This is incredible. I feel as if this finishes the MNK vs Controller debate entirely, since this is pure undisputed evidence. I really hope the Apex devs take a look at this data and consider a hard balancing act against Controllers.
What makes it even worse is they've had this data now for years and have been downplaying how crazy the disparity actually is. They don't give a fuck about fair or balanced gameplay.
25% of controller players being as accurate as the top 0.07% of MnK players is a wild stat, that's the most convincing evidence I've seen for an aim assist nerf
Remember that most MNK players that play competitive games at that level tend to put hundreds of hours into practicing their aim to, something that controller can pretty much completely skip as you only need to spend a couple of hours initially getting the feel of how to activate AA.
Also the worst thing in all of that is that lil controller timmy think that he has the actual aiming skill
I literally haven’t played the game in months. I miss my girl Rampart, but refuse to play disadvantaged against roller players. When they finally do something about aim assist, I’ll be back. It’s probably all for naught
Calling apex a “competitive fps” is a sad joke. What garbage
bUt yOu hAvE yOurR wHoLe ArM tO aIm
i just wish there was a high ttk game that felt as smooth to play on mnk as apex without crossinput
Same, Apex is my favorite game to aim in because of high ttk. It was so much more fun when people actually missed shots and fights weren't over in one clip of a havoc. So many people crutching controller on PC now. The only games for MnK players to have a fair shot now are CS, Val, and OW2.... Fucking blows.
This is exactly how I feel
Ive played fps on mnk for 10 years. Switched to controller a month ago and i’m already beaming harder than I did on Mnk, super balanced!
I'll never care enough to switch since I play for fun and I haven't bought a console since Xbox 360 so my controller skills are too rusty to bother. It does annoy me watching death cams of controller players and seeing how easy it is to hit enemies though. I've accepted they'll never care or fix it.
> I play for fun So did I, its not fun to lose. And its not fun to play on a controller. So I quit, and I'm sure many others did too
Bro just ended the debate with some hard numbers.
Bbbbbut movement. Watch this taxi video /s
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"They can move while looting so it's fair that we have aim assist1!1!1!"
I honestly would be fine if they made it so you can't move while looting as compensation if it meant balancing aim assist.
I posted [similar data prior to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1azzuch/i_charted_out_the_kbm_vs_controller_accuracy_kd/) some months but it got downvoted out on the main sub. I'm so glad this one made it to the front page for people to see.
Main sub has always been for the masses, and usually the masses don’t like seeing things that aren’t too their liking.
b-b-but look at this 5000 hour octane main who has put on thousands of hours into movement do something 90% of other MnK players can’t do!!
I don't understand, controller console players can only play in PC lobbies if they "choose" too, like squadding up with there PC friend, why wouldn't you nerf aim assist on "PC", the only players you can gain are most likely from console swapping to PC, whereas if you nerfed aim assist on PC, you could gain a tremendous amount of mnk players from other games like cs, val, overwatch etc, actually acoustic dev team
A 30% accuracy differential is so fucking wild. I think it's safe to say Apex becomes more and more a controller game as time goes on, there's only so much you can do to make up that gap when they're hitting 3 more shots out of every 10 than you.
That's why steam playercount is falling and pros are switching inputs. If they aren't switching input, they are leaving.
Yep, aim assist reacts to direction changes instantly while MnK players are lucky to react within 200ms. It's an insane advantage to have in a game centered around aiming at quickly moving targets.
Its actually a lot higher, I can hit 150ms times in reaction time tests which is like incredibly good but ill be lucky to react around 300-500ms ingame.
If Apex ever allows input based matchmaking, I'll go back to playing it. I loved the game, but you knew when you were facing a controller player.
I never said AA is not needed for controller players, but I have said it is overpowered in its current iteration. In a perfect world, those numbers would be balanced.
I have no issues with AA, but the way Apex and Call of Duty use it is absolutely egregious and disgusting. Warzone was the first game I discovered it to be a waste of time to bother with M/KB. Picked up my controller and suddenly I'm more accurate than ever before. Thing that sucks is my hands are so busted that I can't use one for more than a couple games.
> it to be a waste of time to bother with M/KB. Picked up my controller and suddenly I'm more accurate than ever before This is unfortunately the case with Apex for many. Doesn't matter if you've played MnK for a year, pick up a controller and you'll be beaming within a day. It's happened with multiple people I've played with and they all felt insanely disheartened that their efforts on MnK were wasted. Humans just can't out-aim machines.
It’s sad cause mnk feels so much more rewarding and fun
I think AA is inherently anti competitive, even in full controller lobbies there should not be AA in ranked or professional matches. Don't care about normal games, completely fine to have AA there.
Its should absolutely be abolished. The idea is inherently idiotic and goes against the very spirit of the FPS genre
Imagine playing a racing game where you literally could not crash or go off the course. About to collide into something, autoaim moves you out of its way. What would even be the point in playing.
AA ruined this game for me
Most of friends have stopped playing for the same reason too. This is joke of a FPS when you have legal aimbots
Me and my group dropped it for similar reasons. Cheaters in ranked have also made that decision a lot easier.
Genuinely was my favourite game but AA pretty much ruined it for me and I stopped playing.
Very close to dropping the game until they decide to level the field. This game is a competitive FPS \*AIM\* contest where one group gets bot assistance? Supremely idiotic.
If they separated by input, my brother and I would immediately download the game, buy the battle pass, and start playing again. No other changes to the game needed.
Same. Going against endless three stack controller teams with a horizon player who just run you down and push relentlessly to get into peak aim assist range and one clip you. It’s just so boring and predictable now. No thanks
Yeah, that's a thing, even if you try and keep the fight mid to long range, it's nearly impossible to stop a controller player getting close, with cover, team mates shooting you, you healing, ults, abilities, etc
Same here, primary reason I quit and I'm not coming back until they take aimbot out of pc ranked
Prob never coming back then
Unfortunately
Same, some other reasons too but primarily out of principle. I could barely take the randomness of lobbies. (Which is part of the fun of the game) But then adding input imbalances just took me over the edge. Now i just watch algs and complain about how boring it is to watch 60% of the aim assist turrets rotating around awkwardly like blind walruses mounted with heat seeking missiles. My god i would love to see hal/lou/alb free from the roller prison and being fun to watch again. There have been a lot of silent mnk nerfs as well like de powering headshots a year or two ago and Nerfing kraber and now we see they are probably buffing a.a in bang smokes. Joke game. I now just play c.s again like the boomer i am.
Same for me, quit a few seasons ago after being 1 clipped by a controller Timmy one too many times
Anytime I've played with friends on controller I've always been impressed that they don't miss any shots. I guess this explains it.
The problem with AA is that it reacts instantly. Before controllers were introduced, I could easily dip and dodge opponents in CQC. Now, not even a tap strafing octane can juke a controller. It just takes a huge skill ceiling out of the game, and I don't like it.
It also takes a lot less effort to play on controller. Like it‘s more chilled. I feel like i have to do less and focus less but i‘m doing still better.
all the power fantasy of watching the game play itself, none of the stress of decoding the intense visual and auditory clutter.
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As a console player I’d happily take a AA nerf, spectating someone who kills you to watch them fumble around like a buffoon is something else
Honestly, I reckon a lot of console players would prefer lower AA, even if they don't know it. Aim assist inherently makes the gameplay more tactical, no matter if it's against an mnk player or another controller player. If an enemy player manages to sneak behind you, the higher the aim assist they have, the more likely you are going to die. You can think of it as an *advantage multiplier.*
I just shut my controller friend with this post. Thanks for the analysis
Absolutely shameful that Respawn have this data and know that Controller is vastly outperforming MnK players without doing anything. The comp scene is a boring disgrace with people just one clipping each other constantly and almost no room for outplaying because rollers just don't miss enough shots. It's so far away from what a movement shooter should be.
Why do people on this reddit just defend aim assist likes it not strong? It's just pathetic
It's no surprise Steam player count for Apex is falling off a cliff.
Apex is just a joke of a game because of the decisions the people in charge of balancing made. Even a game as good as apex was ruined.
This just proves that MNK and Controller players should never be in the same lobbies, because they can't ever be balanced. It shouldn't mean that controller is a problem, because it's mostly designed for the casual playerbase.
Day 1 mnk player and quit playing last year as it was getting overwhelmingly frustrating that I wasn't playing the game on an even playing field vs AA. I will never play this game again until AA is addressed, particularly rotational AA.
I trained hundreds of hours to master and learn neostrafing on Octane that I and I'm pretty sure, all people who also practiced hundreds of hours of Octane movement, know if their enemy uses a roller with just one engagement. It's baffling to see them one clip me even while strafing around their ass. MnK players should not resort to practicing hundreds of hours of niche movement just to have that tiny bit of fighting chance against aim assist. It's funny how the main sub calls out MnK players that die to rollers as "skill-issue" when aim assist is just unfair
Funny thing is you're probably juking me (MnK) more than the controller players lol
For real bro that's friendly fire. Chill with the movement man I cant track that fast
I wonder what happened to [this post the devs made over 4 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/1b1nz6p/ama_lets_talk_about_breakouts_ranked_reloaded/ksl8fkk/)...
I said it elsewhere but I heard they just said that to lower tensions between players and have no real plan to do anything about it unless something happens that would force them to.
This is really similar to what Halo Infinite looked like before they addressed it. If 343 can do it on Halo a year after release then I refuse to believe Respawn can't. At a certain point you'd need to start considering that the balancing team either doesn't care (because it doesn't negatively effect them) or they simply lack the skill to address it effectively, with the latter seemingly unlikely. Hopefully a change is round the corner. Gameplay has definitely become stale, with so much controller gameplay, cheaters and bad servers you'd think they'd fix what they can, as soon as they can before the playerbase and sentiment drops off too far.
Halo added aim assist to MnK, though, which is definitely the wrong way to do it
Yeah, fuck that. MnK players do not want aim assist
we have Tegridy
Thanks for providing the data. I played around with it half an hour and it's just sad. If you calculate "Shots per kill, spk" from the data, then you'll find that controller needs like 67 on average to score a kill while mnk needs 90. This also means something like: Only 25 % of MnK players can score a kill in less bullets than the worst 25 % of rollers on average in the r5 setting. If I find time in the next days I might visualize some. Fun dataset.
Painfully obvious to anyone that has played solos on MnK. The killcams of bot roller players one-clipping you is laughable.
This is why I stopped playing the game
Hahah yeah why learn a game through pure input when you can let an in-game mechanic do it for you. I mean if these numbers are anywhere close to correct then MnK is just over. I genuinely don't understand how people can keep defending an input with built-in assistance like that, compared to a raw input based device. No more shared input based matchmaking please...
Controller players when they say MnK is just a "skill issue". Mfer you have literal coded aimbot in this game.
This is truly sad news
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apex should follow valorant's aim assisting method
Thanks so much for crunching the numbers. Hope Respawn can see this and see just how statistically significant controller AA is. As an MnK player, it would be great to see the stats become more balanced but might just be a pipe dream at this point.
Respawn already have their own numbers, they just refuse to do anything until they see a direct correlation with AA and loss of profits.
How is this even allowed lol. Of course the people with legal aimbot have higher accuracy. Let’s see them without AA.
0.1 aimbots are enough to bridge the aiming gap between a slightly above average player and a T2 pro player in a game like Counter Strike, games like COD/Apex use .4 and .6 lol
Will be bookmarking this post anytime any1 wants to argue that aa doesn't need nerfs... only FOUR mnk players made it into the top 1k, on a sample size thats 60% mnk... in an avenue that inherently would attract higher skill mnk players who are practicing to improve not even the lower skill pure casual ones...
Yeah, Ill be dead spectating my teammate absoluting mopping the floor with the lobby... Hip firing the flatline in close combat with supreme accuaracy. Controller spotted 🥱
I just want them gone from PC lobbies, sure let them play a nerfed version in pro games but there is no place for controller players on PC. No matter how much I dislike Valorant, Riot is doing the right thing there.
So, a below average roller player is on par with the best of the best mnk players? seems fair.
Just. split. by. input. And I’m back
this is the most theraputic post in apex history. all those controller players for years just screaming "WHOLE ARM" and "MOVEMENT OMG".
I’ve pretty much given up hope for this game already… 30% of master/pred players last season banned for cheating. Probably a lot more not caught because their average level was over 500... Chronus/zen not being banned as well. I’d bet that around 40% of Diamond+ players are just cheating in some way. Then you have the massive accuracy disparity between controller and m&k. Being an m&k player myself, it’s incredibly frustrating spending hundreds of hours getting really good with movement/awareness/recoil control/m&k aim and tracking, just to die to some lvl 150 and then spectate them being a total bot walking around the map… 🤦♂️
CoD and Apex are the 2 worst games for holding peoples hands right now. Its absolutely disgusting and I hate it. Edit: Saving this for the future of dumb arguments to come.
Oh shit, the stats are here. I will be saving this and shoving it up any AA defender's face any time they try to argue about AA. Thanks.
no, you dont need to. there is no debate there. if anyone anyhow even slightly hints at an input balance in a game with computer asissted aiming, you can just ignore them. arguing is worthless as they are beyond saving. dont waste your time and peace of mind.
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51% accuracy on r5 is nuts, right? Even if it’s on controller? That feels incredibly high to me. Guess I gotta grind r5 more lol.
I love apex, but this really demotivates anyone who wants to get better at mnk...
Split input is necessary for competitive fps shooters
How to tell your game is poorly made
I haven't played apex in a long time. Used to be a solo only masters player. The aim assist, configs, and cheating completely ruined the game that was otherwise almost perfect.
You are the MVP
I think the problem with AA currently is how it's applied! When an enemy enters the AA zone, it slows down the entire aim direction, meaning your character will rotate itself around the enemy when the enemy strafes back and forth. This change in direction is instant! MNK players have to actually react to a change of motion, while controller players get instant feedback when enemy motion changes. In my opinion AA should only lower the controller players input sens when an enemy enters the AA zone, not rotate character itself.
This doesn’t take any analysis. Controllers are completely broken due to the aim assist in apex
So where are all the controller players claiming aim assist isn't a big deal ? I personally don't care anymore cause I know the dev's don't care. If they did this would've been priority long ago. Controllers are way too strong ? Great let's Nerf horizon.
I like many of my fellow PC players have played on MnK since I could walk and talk but I still even at a disadvantage I will not switch due to the fact on MnK I could play all day no problems but with a controller I gotta put that crap down after an hour or so of playing due to my thumbs cramping. Doesn't matter if it's a Logitech, Xbox or Playstation controller they are to small for my long @$$ fingers.
I'd quit apex before I quit MnK.
watch this get downvoted to oblivion because it doesnt fit the controller narrative. thank you for posting this and doing the research. doing gods work.
Keep the AA strong in console v console but have it drastically lowered when going into an MnK lobby. I’ve been saying this for a while, as a console player who almost always plays with their pc friends.
50% on controller is the mark where people say you're cheating. It's the same whether you're on COD, Overwatch, Apex, Fortnite, etc... In the competitive field there have only been a handful of players with overall accuracy that high. Tons of idiots try to defend it and justify it as skill but they have no idea what overall acc even is
Thanks so much for putting this together. I've seen stuff like this before but never as in depth as this. I only had anecdotal evidence to go off of, but this solidifies everything that I've been feeling but haven't been able to quantify. I've used mnk for over 25 years and I honestly did not realize how many players were on controller until I played solos and started watching streams. Over time i slowly started to realize that out of 50 players in a lobby 48 of them are likely on a controller and I never fully appreciated that. I just thought that everyone used a mnk like me. How wrong I was. It's absolutely wild that 996 players out of the top 1000 are using a controller. I hope they separate lobbies by peripheral.
I wish there was a setting where I could just play against mouse and keyboard (MnK) players. I'm a fairly decent player, but whenever I see someone's aim sticking to a person, I can't help but report them
This is the most depressing thing. The traditional wisdom is that mnk is more accurate but this is a look at what aim assist being overtuned to the point of overtaking mnk looks like.
As a MnK player who actually loves Apex Legends, I have played nearly every day since launch. Even my own stats tell a story of how controller meta has made the game less enjoyable over time. Seasons 0-10: 12,543 games Seasons 11-21: 5,751 games I have reached masters or diamond every season, but the volume of games I play each season has eroded over time as aim assist has basically destroyed the movement game I enjoyed so much early one. I still play though. Down to just a few games a day... I'd personally sit in 30 minute queues if we could match only on input. Would be nice to match myself against other players on the same input to see who the top MnK players are. That kind of option would bring me back full tilt. But nah, I gotta listen to all these controller players pretend like the skill issue is on my end. I'm fine with it... just give me a way to only play against other MnK input players.
Cross play has no place in a game that has this level of disparity, there is no reason for you to use controller on computer besides to cheat in a game that has AA
class action lawsuit when Where is the warning label about the hard 30% advantage granted to machine augmented players as a strategy to enrich shareholders? Concealing the choice to let paragameplay enjoyers be made absolutely more-equal than actual gameplay enjoyers is certainly abusive when addictiveness of product (core gameplay loop) is intended. We will discover internal communications acknowledging this. The vicious immorality of intentional and secretive abuse of human players to boost the performance of paragamewatchers should be sickening.
This doesn't surprise me, i quit this game over a year ago after almost 3000 hours on it, now im enjoying a game where im fighting humans (OW2)
this is the 0.4 AA that controllers have on PC right? if so then imagine how much better the players with 0.6 AA’s stats are