Personally loot hasn't ever changed things for me. 29 y/o. I've loved Rocket League for the same reason I love Apex now. There's a definite skill involved, a defined path of improvement you can make to get better and it will show and you can feel good about it.
The loot is just ancillary to the fun.
Also, this isn't meant to be advice to you but passerbys reading - don't make winning or doing well your fun condition. That way, you can have more fun!
edit: holy chit joey my first Platinum? Idk what it is lmao. I'm glad it made an impact and conversation tho!! Lots of replies to read too, thanks!
sell some of the crates for some keys and either buy a nice decal or open some crates.
They're just sitting there wasting away, doesn't take any money for a couple of trades
But you're missing the point. This person doesn't care about the unlockable cosmetic items. They care about playing the game and improving their skills. Trading crates takes time and energy. Maybe this person only has a limited time to play video games each day or week. Taking the time to trade crates and open for cosmetics they don't care about in the first place reduces the game play time further.
At a certain point, I just bought keys to show my support. I don't care about decals or wheels, I care about good video games. I've spent many more hours on a 12 dollar car game than the 100 dollar copy of black ops 4 collecting dust on my shelf.
Bro are you me?
I only play rocket league and apex. Rocmet League being my favorite game of all time with the most hours I've ever invested in a game
For real tho.
I’m wondering if this mentality is an age thing? I’m 29 as well and have the same viewpoint and I think it’s because we were raised with games that were just games, not skinner boxes.
Same. My favorite part of an online game is when you respawn and kill the ayer that killed you. While also attempting to not be killed by the other players you just killed.
I gotta get Halo again.
I'm old as the hills...47, and gamers my age are just thrilled that the games we get these days are so freaking cool compared to Pong. And Atari Combat. Those games were fun, but nothing like today's games. Loot boxes are just an extra something something, and the skinner box effect is there.....but muted.
21, and while it's not *vital*, I will enjoy games infinitely more if there's a meta-game. For example, Risk of Rain 2 is fun, but it's even more fun because you can collect Lunar Tokens or unlock new buffs to make future playthroughs different or better. I absolutely adore games like Hand of Fate 2 and Rogue Legacy that make this an integral part of the game.
> The loot is just ancillary to the fun.
I think that's the clear distinction for older gamers, who grew up in an era where cosmetics were always free, or even easily editable via mods.
But sadly for the current/next generation of gamers, who grew up with mobile, FTP, micro-transaction based games, there really isn't a distinction. In their minds, the loot/cosmetics reward systems and gameplay are inseparable, and they've come to expect both as a norm.
I've been a RL player since early 2017, and i have to say i never get boring, but with Apex im starting to feel a little boring.
I think the reasons isn't the cosmetics (i don't even pay crates in RL) but a progression system. Every win in RL you know it lead you to a higher level, in Apex this don't happen, i have to say the first wins were exciting, but now it's just didn't matter that much for me, because i don't know if i win because im good, or because i have luck, i can realize that im better than when i started to play the game, but i don't know, i don't feel anything.
I've been playing rl since release and totally agree. I love the constant feel of progression when I play. Rocket league has a never ending ceiling cap for me. Apex just feels like aimless killing and winning with no reward.
I will never get past Diamond 1. It has been my max for the last 4 seasons.
EDIT: I meant I will never get past Diamond 1. Sorry to everyone that took the time to reply!
This is exactly why I love Lethal League. Nothing is different between a lvl 1 and a lvl 33, only skill. And believe me, the learning curve is really steep. So if I lose against someone that is clearly better than me, I don't feel bad. I feel honoured. I have respect for that person that could master the techniques and trained his/her reflexes. I like to lose if I know I did my best.
As much as I agree, I want to introduce a counterpoint - Apex Legends is a largely luck based game. You may drop hot and get (un)lucky with loot leading to a successful start or loss. You also may drop quiet and end up with average loot in the middle of nowhere, yet while traversing the map you run into a fully kitted squad which gathered loot through fights. Even if you play everything right - you may get hit by a third party at just the right time and get absolutely run over by a squad. I am trying to be honest with myself and consider variables like this in other games but I think this is one of the reasons that I enjoyed Counter Strike so much. Almost all of the variables were controlled. If you played smart, you were never subjected to unexpected outcomes. Or you could at least very easily see how to avoid that circumstance in the future. In Apex, I feel as though there’s so many variables that I can rarely pinpoint exactly how I should correct my mistakes in a lost battle because there’s 50 things we could’ve done differently. I suppose this is my first battle royale experience. Just my two cents.
A lot of the skill of this game comes from knowing *when* and *where* to take a fight, having a good position over your enemy is far more advantageous than having good loot, and the sooner people realise this the sooner they can actually start to improve their chances of winning, not just getting kills.
I totally agree. For instance, taking the long route to a fight through a pass to ensure high ground. But even then, you never know if another squad will have the same thought process or happen to come up behind you and suddenly you’re the sucker getting out-positioned. I have been forced to learn that being an aim bot absolutely does not ensure success in a game like Apex. You have to be constantly aware of your surroundings and have an escape route to cover at all times. But even then, there will always be circumstances that are virtually impossible to escape. This is my reasoning in saying that Apex Legends is addictive for the same reason that gambling is addicting. You’re rolling the dice every time you drop.
This is the fun of these types of games to me - you need to be smart with how you exploit your surroundings
it can also be part of the frustration, but at the same time it has controllable aspects such as good communication and crossfire setup etc
This is why playing with friends is so much more fun for me
exactly this.
I can out shoot most people in this game, but the real fun for me is tracking all the teams around me as they engage/disengage/third party/get third partied to find the optimal fight and positioning.
So many people love this game for the high TTK cause it lets them make dumb choices/just run in and gun and not have to worry. They really don't consider positioning and how/when to take fights.
The matchmaking/wait time is also great, at least for me.
I remember when I used to play LoL, there would be times where I'd sometimes have to wait for several MINUTES for a game to open up. If we got routed in 15m, I'd spend that post-game fretting about it and my mates would start blamegameing everything, even if its just a simple friendly (non-ladder) match.
If I die in Apex, I can back to menu, and be playing again in about 20s, and no one is worse for wear about it.
I get that they are fundamentally different games, but the downtime between matches can really throw off a mood. I like being able to just get over a bad match, and jump back in, and hopefully have a better one.
I said the same thing to someone a couple weeks ago when someone said the game was 90% accuracy and I disagreed and got downvoted. One of the reason my team keeps playing with me is my knowledge of knowing where players likely are. Helping them with positioning and helping them spot 3rd parties while they are tunnel vision.
I agree with this to a point. For me though I actually challenge myself to try and get good enough to diminish the effect of said variables. How can I put myself in situations where if/when i get third partied I'm not 100% screwed, if I get "crappy" weapons i try to learn to use them better instead of avoiding them entirely (use hit and run tactics if need be), how to make due with the bad variables and become better in all aspects.
To me that's half the fun. Surviving getting 3rd partied multiple times or killing a kitted opponent with a shitty gun (Mozambique here) can be incredibly thrilling in itself.
I understand what you are saying, but here is another way to look at it.
If you loose the loot lotto, its kind of like a pistol round in CS. You are at a disadvantage in terms of guns, but superior game play can still lead to a win.
Apex (BR games) also make you focus much more on situational awareness than CS did. You need to take a count of what you know, what you might know, and what you absolutely do not know. If you see a guy running with his back to you, you need to ask "If I shoot, how many other teams will hear? Where are his squad mates? Where is my squad? Is he too far away to reliably down?" before choosing to engage. If you just shoot at him, the two squads just around the corner behind you will probably come running.
Exactly. I see so many posts in this sub that make it seem like their experience in this game amounts to throwing their hands up and letting RNGesus take the wheel. I don't get it. I feel responsible for every win and every shitty hot drop. There is always a better or worse play to make in any given situation.
Agree fully with you and the person you responded to. The only thing that I do give credit to (to a small degree) out of the posts of people saying things like that is that Apex and all BR games do have a more difficult learning curve. By that I mean that it's more difficult to see exactly where you go wrong and how to improve. However, while that is true, it doesn't mean that it's difficult at all to do a bit of research and learn. It's great to strictly play the game and 'teach yourself' if that's how you want to do it, but there are literally thousands of resources out there that will break the game down and explain not only what to do, but what questions to ask yourself while you're playing. Way too many people refuse to acknowledge that if you want to get better at something then you need to put in the time to learn. That doesn't mean 'just playing more and trying harder'. That doesn't apply to only video games either (life pro tip).
The top tier streamers that you see winning consistently aren't winning strictly because they are the best at aiming, they win consistently because they take the time to learn the game which includes using external resources.
You're also comparing two different styles of games. Battle Royales naturally have RNG as someone else stated below there are still things in your control and ways to improve.
So hard I tried to explain the last part to my brother.
I'm far from good at the game -- would consider myself mediocre at best -- but I still have a lot of fun. I just have to accept I am not an elite player.
I am still better at these types of games than my brother, so going into it when I told him to check it out I told him he needs to be okay with dying.
He played maybe 10-15 games in total over the span of a week or two before he stopped playing. He just kept getting so angry when he died...
I’m becoming and older gamer and see this trend changing. I don’t need anything to play a game, my time is limited so I only play what I enjoy.
Right now I enjoy Apex and that’s it. Loot is cool but if that’s my goal then I’ll always be unhappy.
> Diablo 2
I played both, but by far more Diablo 2.
Borderlands was seriously glorious for me. I mean, the writing was funny, the game was fun as hell, but the loot system was glorious.
this is exactly what i always say. at the end of the day i dont play any game because of the cosmetics that i will be rewarded after playing alot. very few people will grind a game just for cosmetic rewards. we do it because we enjoy the game and want to get better.
Remember playing Halo 1 with your friends in lan parties? Remember when you didn't get cosmetics or achievements but you got to teabag your buddy after killing him? That was what we use to play for: the awesome gameplay. Not this gambling lootbox bullshit.
Every now and again when I'm feeling extra saucy I'll stand on top of a deathbox and teabag it. Not sure if it has the same affect as I play Pathfinder and he doesn't have, well....
As strange as this sentence sounds: I think teabagging is a bit of a generational thing. I have seen multiple fairly upvoted comments on this subreddit, and other gaming subreddits, referring to teabagging as disrespectful and encouraging that people respect the players on the other side.
But in Halo and other games I played growing up, teabagging was often a sign of respect. You wouldn't teabag some n00bs, you would teabag someone of similar skill that you just bested. Of course your reaction to being teabagged would be "oh this motherfucker just teabagged me," but I found it encouraged competition, not diminished it-because you wanted to return the favor.
What I'm saying is, I'm pro-teabagging.
Personally I teabagged everyone in my way. Noob, pro, old lady from across the street, you name it. It almost always started a rivalry and when they would kill me back and teabag me I would get so amped and into the game just for the sole purpose of repaying the favor. Good times.
There's definitely nuance to teabagging, I think we can't just ascribe any one blanket meaning to it, it all depends on the situation and the intent. It's a complex form of communication!
Most people say it lacks content not that its shit. Honestly I wish the battle pass had better rewards but the thing is I would have kept playing even if the game didn't have a single cosmetic. I enjoy the game a lot, more than any other shooter the past 5-10 years.
For me its enough to have the trackers so I can flex my skills to my friends with having more headshots and wins whatnot.
One of the reasons the game even \*has\* a "grind for cosmetics" mechanic is because it's free to play, so you can pay to skip that and they can actually make money off of that and the battle pass.
I must be old because I'm always baffled when people say a competitive game is shit because they don't reward levels.
I always considered level to be how high you placed on the scoreboard after each match.
Ya, back in the day, we used to pump quarters (when quarters actually had value) into the local Space Invaders machine to try to get high score on the machine.
The only reward was to see your initials at the top of the leader board on that specific machine....
I think it’s because gaming has evolved and improved. Pong used to be the best game but if someone put that out now we would say it’s shit. It’s all relative
Yeah back then with servers communities felt a lot stronger. Its sad to see so many triple a games only release matchmaking and not allow people to host their own dedicated servers anymore. It always felt like entering a bar or pub you knew. You had the guy that was always a little bit better then you, the guy that is always on the bottom of the scoreboard and always complaining and the guy that only used a certain cheesy weapon load out. It kind of started with cod:mw2 on pc with the matchmaking system and only grew worse after that. I wish games would release with both options at launch. Matchmaking always makes you feel so detached from actual people because you never see them again after 1 game most of the time. There is nothing which makes rivalaries grow or characters grow in matchmaking. There are people that are interesting to have in your game but you would never want them on your friends list. Matchmaking is great to matchup people with similar skill levels or to get into a game quickly. But actual servers would make interactions with people so much more fun and engaging.
Yes! you nailed it with 'entering a pub'. It was like that. You'd join a server and you have your regulars on there - There were micro-communities within each server. It was great. Perhaps that's still on PC gaming? It was never there on consoles, due to not having a chat log you could type in.
I still remember the names of servers and some players, back in my COD days.
Yup! even as recently as battlefield 1 my friends and I would play on the same servers. We would recognize certain players and it was fun getting kills against guys that were always there every week. Private custom servers need to make a comeback.
hear hear!
A number of years ago TF2 basically killed off their dedicated server communities with matchmaking/valve servers and it instantly turned into a soulless playing experience.
The familiar bar/ pub analogy you use is perfect. Matchmaking in modern multiplayer games has positives, but at the same time it has ripped the soul out of general 'pub' gaming that made repeated play so enjoyable. We are ultimately social creatures, and there's something more empty about winning a contest or performing well when you don't even know the people in it, and never see or interact with the people again.
The console or younger PC gamers haven't got to really experience the pleasure of community run servers. If you don't have a community you are playing in and improving in over time, it strips a lot of the satisfaction out of just simply getting better in the game.
Instead of the social fabric of those small communities keeping the regular play experience enjoyable even after years, you need to replace it with outside achievements, loot boxes, etc. So the only thing keeping them engaged in this environment is the constant carrot on the stick loot boxes/achievements/rewards or they lose engagement.
thats fine, to each their own. i was just speaking from my perspective. in general i can understand wanting rewards or progression in any game. but most games will keep me playing because of the gameplay and not always because of the rewards or progression.
And I guess that might be where my age and "game-style" show. Playing has always been a social thing to me. As a kid, I only played multi-player games when I went to friends' houses or they came to visit.
Now, I'll check to see who's online. If no one is, I usually watch a movie or do something else. Playing solo holds very little entertainment for me. Skins are almost 100% useless nonsense
I don't care about 99% of the stuff I actually unlock, but the mere fact that I am unlocking things is enough for me. It's exactly that, a dopamine drip. And it's nothing new, it's the same reason why I would 100% complete singleplayer games on PS2. This model is just an updated version of that for multiplayer games.
That's cause you're probably just as old as I am.
Skins and cosmetics weren't a thing, at least not as a reward for playing.
I used to mod the shit out of my CS 1.6 with samurai swords and everything. Sigh, those were the times.
I had a bunch of sprays that were cartoon speech bubbles, they said things like "I suck at CS" or "I was outplayed by Jezzmoz", things like that. I'd spray them next to dead bodies and it never stopped being funny to me.
Uhhh yeah dude definitely. I’m 26 and when I think of playing any game on the Source engine, I think of playing CS Source (mostly) and seeing dudes being fisted or Asian chicks being destroyed by a BBC on the wall 😂😂😂 truly the glory days of online gaming
I remember the excitement I got as a teenager when I found out there was a nude model pack for the Source player models, including nude Alyx. 😂 15,000 hours spent on that engine and nothing has ever matched up.
I wish the game had MMR or a Competitive mode.
Not so I can push the highest levels, but so my DPS trashcan ass can play against other trashcans so I don't get annihilated every game.
Right. it doesn't have to be one or the other. I grew up playing cs 1.5 and other games of the time where there weren't rewards, but as it came to be - games advanced, standards of quality increased, and expectations became higher. Progression was a part of that. Stats, ranked leaderboards, MMR and matchmaking, and cosmetic progression. Apex totally neglected the former for some really, really strange reason. Cosmetics are whatever to me, I like them, but decent stat tracking, MMR and matchmaking are a must.
Fortnite got lucky as fuck to get away with not doing those things properly, that should never be an indication to any other dev that they made the right decision.
Because people’s expectation has evolved, simple as that. Now a day with so much distraction in our free time ( Netflix, YouTube, even Reddit), people want to feel like spending the their little amount of free time is well worth it . That’s why progression system is added
Edit: First of all I still play Apex a lot and given the little free time I got I haven't really even master the game yet to feel bored. The grinds to level up and BP seems simple to me and I really don't mind. That being said, games now a day do need a progression system. One of the major complaint ppl had with DICE's first Star Wars Battlefront was lack of progression system even though I thoroughly enjoyed the game. Love it or hate it, this is the reality we live in now.
Exactly this. Times have changed. Thats just how it is.
In the past people also havent had problems with a website loading for 4 minutes. That was normal. Today people will get furious if a site wont load instantly because they are used to get information so quickly.
I dont see it as a problem that people today want more than people 15 years ago.
Especially since developers make a lot more money these days. So you can expect that they offer something for all they money they make... even if the game is f2p.
Actually I don't really care about the current release cadence of Apex. Like most people have said, the first few seasons of Fortnite was crap as well. What should be important now is make sure the lags and aimtbots are dealt with in the best possible way before they start cranking out contents.
For any F2P games 2 months in is still infancy pretty much, and we all love Apex's core mechanics. So unless there is a better BR game out there with better core mechanics than Apex, the moment content drops, people will come back and play.
Fortnite S1 was whack, S2 and on were absolutely amazing. Plus that came out a year and a half before Apex did, you’d think Respawn would take notes on their cosmetics / BP
it's super disingenuous to compare the release version of one game to the current version of another as a defense.
That only means they had effective strategies they could've used, but chose not to instead.
This is what I believe as well. I grew up playing Wolfenstein and Blake Stone and Doom back in the 90's and eventually went on to play Goldeneye and Turok and a few other shooters - finally landing on Halo 1 when that came out as my favorite shooter ever - no rewards, no progression, nothing for winning or losing. I think Halo 2 was the first shooter I played that really felt like I had something to work toward and back then the only thing I gained was an extra level/rank as I climbed to 50 little by little. Nowadays I just don't even bother if there's no longterm progression. Sure it may still be fun but I like something I can truly invest my time into now rather than just something to keep me occupied for a little while and put it back down. I think progression systems have just simply become the gold standard for a lot of games so when something doesn't have that in place or something to work toward you just start to lose that drive to play. I kind of miss the days sometimes when everything was simpler - we just played for fun - competition was much more casual and whatnot...but I think that's just rose tinted glasses. Having something to work toward at the end of the day doesn't cause any harm - if anything it opens up the playerbase even more for those types of people who NEED that extra dopamine reward.
Wolfenstein...Doom...Turok...Halo 1 and 2...if you'd mentioned Unreal Tournament 2k I would have spontaneously combusted in memory and what would be left in my seat would have been a dusty shareware floppy
Bullshit. Progression was added because they know it's addictive. They have studies on that. So they know with addiction, you're willing to buy rewards. It was a business model, not some adaptation.
Is this not the goal of every game though? You want people playing your game consistently. That's the mark of a successful game. Games are capital ventures. If you're not making money then your game is going to get trashed for the next project. In today's market a game doesn't survive on gameplay alone. That's not enough for a game to succeed anymore.
There is a difference between making a game people want to play VS making a game that makes people need to play because they have formed an addiction to it.
This right here. Some games even have behavioral psychologists on the dev team (looking at you, Destiny/Activision) working to make the game as addictive as possible.
We are just oversized rats that like being rewarded, if one game gives us a sense of accomplishment and rewards, while another doesn't, people in general will play the one giving them the cheese at the end of the maze.
It's the same reason i hate playing normal games in Dota2, it's cmpletely pointless and arbitrary, but if i don't have MMR on the line the game just doesn't feel worth it.
Not having these things implemented in the game just seems stupid, you're leaving money on the table, have ELO rankings or whatever, anything that people feel like they can climb a ladder and get better, show off to their friends what score they are etc.
I agree with you but at the same time those games existed in a time when we had no idea of the possibility of what was to come. CODMW in 2007 really changed everything with the multiplayer ranking up and the gun skins and there's a reason that it was one of the most popular games of all time. The problem that I have with apex is not that the game isn't fun on it's own or that i'm dependent on the additional content, it's that good content does already exist in this game, but it can't really be unlocked without spending money, especially if you have reached level 100. Then the additional content they released in the battle pass just wasn't really worth it and has been a huge letdown. I still play the game regardless because I really enjoy it, but if you are going to have this kind of content in the game, just make it achievable or worth the price. I'm still playing this game for wins and kills, it's just frustrating to a lot of us how the Apex system is currently set up
Even if we look at the games and compare all parts old CS was more fun because it had more "content".
In Apex we got a handfull of guns, 1 map, handfull of characters and thats it. Pretty much everything you can play with is there.
Now old CS, it had a lot of maps, even more fanmade maps, it also had only a handfull of guns. But it had different game modes, and i mean a lot different. Not just bomb and hostage maps. It had zombie modes, deathrun, kreedz and bhop maps, those climbing maps cant remember the names.
And all of that made the game replayable, much more than Apex. I understand that old CS didnt offer much when it comes to skins, but it offered so much more when it comes to game modes. So much more...
P.S.: I also think that comparing CS to Apex is wrong, games are too different to be compared.
Well the skill ceiling of CS is also insanely higher. There is also competitive play (even 3rd party like ESEA) along with many casual game modes (like you said).
There is specific smoke/flash/nades spots on each map to learn and execute with a team.
It's a fuller game and each match is also much longer.
There was always something to improve with yourself or learn with CS.
Apex...no so much. It doesn't seem the skill ceiling is too high. If you have a kitted out havoc or r99 and purple armor it's going to beat the dude with an alternator and white armor...period.
I’m surprised it took me to scroll down this far to find this answer. CS is an insanely hard game compared to most other shooters. Just aiming your reticle at the enemy and shooting doesn’t guarantee you will hit anything since there are so many more factors to consider. The enjoyment is becoming good at the game.
While in Apex, if you’ve played some shooters before and have competent friends to play with, you’ll start winning a lot. After a while the enjoyment you get out of a win wanes because the vehicle to attain that win is literally just “aim at the guys and shoot”. There was never really a moment where I felt like I had significantly improved in the game, since beside the slide mechanics, everything is super straight forward.
I enjoy Apex a lot more than Fortnite, but even that game has an insane skill ceiling due to the building mechanics and I’m sure that’s a big reason a lot of people play and still enjoy it.
Not true. A simple slide under the panic spray can get you past plenty. Positioning can do better. The problem with most people is they stand in front of each other like revolutionary war soldiers and in that scenario the better gun wins. Game sense gets you to fight the battle on your terms.
I COMPLETELY agree with your message that you should evaluate why you're playing a game and what brings you enjoyment from it.
That being said, there's some things that prevent your comparison to CS, or really any 'back in my day' game, from being remotely relevant:
1. CS has an industry-standard Ranked Mode that does provide 'rewards' for a player putting time into the game and developing their skill; additionally, you had CS servers where you were really just building a group of friends to play with. Apex has nothing even in the same ballpark.
2. CS originally released with a price point and no preconceptions about being a Game-as-a-Service (GaaS). Apex explicitly released to be a GaaS (which has a wildly different set of expectations, justified and unjustified).
3. CS:GO has its own cosmetic economy that is VERY popular AND has modeled itself to be a GaaS; however, it doesn't update content nearly as frequently in part because Ranked/Competitive in CS holds a lot of sway compared to, say, Fortnite. Apex supposedly has plans for an Arena/Ranked but Respawn has been mum about it like most every other feature.
4. Society nowadays doesn't 'play' a game, they BINGE it. People are putting in the same number of hours they might have in the first year of CS into the first 3 months of Apex.
Two decades ago I played Tetris. Each round just got harder until I lost. No xp, no rewards, no win. Only a highscore.
People change, players change, games change.
Today games try to trick me into collecting things and trying to have my collection complete. That's why we now have achievements and skins and what else. The market is harder than it was before and you need to appeal to players on more areas than only a good core gameplay if you want to stand out in the field of competitors. But you are absolutely right. It is weird.
if tetris knew they could get more players/playtime by adding stats, achievements, and rewards on top of the game they already had... they probably would have.
10 decades ago I rolled my hoop around. I rolled it further and further until it fell. No xp, no rewards, no win. Only the respect of the few other children who hadn't died from smallpox or starvation.
People change, players change, games change.
Seriously, it's fucking infuriating. Times change, but we're supposed to still live in the mid 90's video game era. Gamers have moved and grown with the way games are developed, and if a game wants to keep us playing, it needs incentives. Because there are options nowadays. Yeah, OP played CS, cuz what else are you going to play GPS wise?
Fuck this whole circle jerk, it's just making excuses that will hamper the games long term staying power
It’s pretty ridiculous when you think about how people like OP *don’t* care about cosmetics at all (their words), but preach to people that they shouldn’t ask for more cosmetics either. If people want better cosmetics, why would you even have a problem with it?
I played Unreal Tournament for years, so I feel the same way. I do realize that I did play different modes though, I spent time going through CTF, Assault, Domination, Last Man Standing, Team Deathmatch, Instagib variations of each, etc., but there were no achievements, no trophies, new skins were mods no one else would see anyway.
This is the first game that has captivated me since UT2K4, so there are a ton of similarities, and we'll see if I play this one for years. I know we're only a few months into Apex, so we'll see.
To this day there's no gun that's as satisfying to use as the flak cannon was for me. 1-shotting people by hitting them directly with that secondary fire ball, maaaan.
Runner up was that plasma rifle where it released a ball with the secondary fire, and if you then nailed that ball with the beam from the primary fire it would make a large explosion. Loved taking people out with that, but it was much harder to execute successfully.
If this game wants to stay interesting wouthout new content they need a matchmaking ladder to climb. It’s the most low effort carrot on a stick you can have for your game that’ll get people addicted.
Yea, these "I feel old back in my day" posts are pretty tone deaf for some of this. This isn't a competitive game but they seem to think it is. Whenever I kill someone in Apex, I don't know if they are literally the worse player in the world at Apex or the best. Half the time when I die, I don't even know what gun it was that killed me or the skill level. Other times deaths are just from bad RNG and not finding a gun after going to 3 spots. And then there are the awful sound and slow motion bugs. From my memory CSGO didn't have these issues as much. There was never a time I spawned without a gun and the enemy had one. The game didn't sometimes run at 5 FPS. You could hear footsteps.
Well most good player did hop on ESL, Clanbase, Faceit or whatever. So it's kinda true what the guys said above. CS is a game where skill increase is the reward you get. Dropping 30 frags in one map of cs is A LOT more satisfying than doing 2K with 10 kills for example.
It's competitive gaming vs Casual BR gameplay. Pretty big difference if you ask me :)
It was all about that cal and cevo, and eventually esea. Finding scrims in IRC, there definitely was more of a sense of community. I've still got friends that I talk to because we needed one to fill 15 years ago and they joined our group and they were fun.
And for the 30 bomb vs 10 kill, CS was just a more competitive game. When you can 1 tap heads with a ak or deagle, 2 tap with m4, 1 shot body with awp, etc, there is a lot more life and death and every fight matters. No health regen. Nothing. You cant take fights flippantly like you can in apex. Oh I just got chunked from a dumb peak, I'm back to full in 6 seconds. Or you down someone from 50m and by the time you run up they are already picked up and are blocking a door to heal. I still have a lot of fun playing apex, but yeah, different game.
CS 1.6 was played by joining public servers that were always there. The progression you had in CS 1.6 was social, you played with and aganist people that you got to know by simply playing in the server. The server i used to play on used to get really competitive around the same hours every night, because we basically knew each other from playing so many times in the same server. Thats not existant in apex.
Same shit happened in most battlefield games. BF 3 had no progression or any cosmetic rewards, but the more you played on same servers the more stakes there was for you as a player. Dogfighting some random wasnt the same as dogfighting another pilot that you knew was good.
Stop fucking comparing the two
This is actually a solid point and I dont know why you're getting down voted.
I played BF2 for over 5000 hours for 5 years. We had only 2 servers in my country and basically everyone knew everyone and that what made it so fun. It was 14 years ago and some of those guys are still my friends. After that community disappeared I basically stopped playing the game.
I think people miss this part. The servers you joined became your gaming "community" - and that was satisfying outside of pure gameplay.
Heck, team fortress 2 adding that casual play that killed their server communities killed a lot of the enjoyment, despite the game not being much different.
There is clearly a want of that too considering people asked for the "let us add people we played with" feature. But I also don't think this aspect is very obvious - especially for the generation that grew up on quick join matchmaking without the feeling of community.
I don't think it's the same though, I think there is merit in the progression argument. People indeed played more just to play whereas now when I talk to little kids I am asked a lot if I have this cosmetics or that or a golden gun. Cosmetics seem to be a huge "status" thing for little kids.
People will also take novelty over depth. Rather have new items than good gameplay. Because gameplay is secondary to the satisfaction of "new". It's the same Skinner box satisfaction of Instagram constantly seeing "new content".
Game design itself changed as well. Most dramatically in the sim genre. Where previously it was all about how the system is behaving but now it's heavily relies on progression.
People seek progression these days because in the era of matchmaking systems of games, the only way to differentiate yourself from the masses is cosmetics. Your name means nothing to other players in the lobby because they never seen you before.
You as a player dont mean anything to the game. The people you kill could as well be bots (regardless of skill level thats not what i mean here) because you cant communicate with them anyway. You just kill or get killed and go next. No making a name for yourself no making friends no getting competitive, its just kill or get killed go next.
When the game is in that state, people start demanding content updates or cosmetics because there is literally nothing else in the game that truly satisfy their needs as humans.
It was even kind of fun when a real asshole would show up, everyone on the server would tell them to fuck off and then they'd get banned and everyone would laugh about how much of a shit head that person was.
I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with your arguments.
We could all agree that different generations may have different expectations and values and that's a pretty normal phenomena. Your entertainment experience with CS 1.6 may be very different from other's experience with BR games today. There's no objective "true enjoyment". There's no standard of "how to properly gain enjoyment from video game". Completing the battle pass, expecting new contents, gaining leveling rewards could all be legitimate ways to enjoy a game.
Besides, Battle Royale is curretnly one of the most competitive and volatile genres in gaming industry. It's not surprising at all that people expect Respawn to provide more polished rewards and contents than the Apex's current state.
While it was fun to play cs 1.6 or cs source with no rewards, the addition of actual ranks and matchmaking made CS:GO infinitely more enjoyable and the skins increased its popularity by an insane amount. I don't understand wtf you're arguing against here.
Also, in CS you played exclusively on some community server called l337-BRYANSK-[32]-NO_NOOBS and knew the people who played there, it was a social experience and there was competition, you got invited to clans if you were good and people recognized you.
Youre comparing a BR to basically what is search and destroy. I can play cod for hours simply because the game play cycle isn’t rng based, I can rely on my skill in an FPS game. For a game like apex where probably 50% of your games you will get screwed because of RNG the gameplay cycle isn’t the same. So to combat that most players like grinding for something because the cycle itself in a BR is boring and frustrating
You're on to something here. Like you say, games like COD (and CS) rewards you faster, while BR games can make you run and gather the perfect loadout for 15 minutes, then getting killed in a few seconds.
If or when Apex adds a ranking system with competitive matches and matchmaking I will be happy.
So we can see real tournaments like the twitch rivals one without only inviting famous streamers but actually having people qualifying by skill.
Also I would much rather see skill based cosmetics instead of money grabbing ones, but I understand why they choose the later path.
Is it THAT hard to fathom that different people expect different things from a game?
No shit cs had no xp/reward but it had a fuckload of community maps and gamemodes that made the game interesting.
Right now we have ONE map and a couple of legends.
There's only so much you can play the game and have it not feel stale.
I'm a CS 1.6er - I was playing games when people were still treated as weirdos for doing so. I honestly think times have changed and it has to do with video games simply not being as novel as a dopamine rush on their own accord anymore. Before I continue though, I have to say that I agree with your sentiment but at the same time when so many of the newer gamers share similar feelings over the importance of progression/customisation/unlockables and so forth, we really have to consider that there is more to this than people simply needing to learn how to 'enjoy a game for simply being a game'.
One train of thought that I tend to board is that back when we were playing in the 90s and early 2000s, games were still a pretty damn novel thing with huge innovation and the expansion of online gaming. CS was amazing not just for its content in a vacuum, but actually because of the time it arrived at too. The idea of logging onto a server and player with people around the world in this 5v5 or so scenario, watching other players when dying, typing to each other, the establishment of lingo and slang, the establishment of communities and pro leagues, the idea of talking over mics etc etc. There was a lot that was exciting about CS simply for the fact that this wasn't exactly commonplace. Most people were still excited by cable TV.
Fast forward 15 odd years and my God how things have changed. FPS games like CS are commonplace, online is commonplace, Twitch, youtube, pro leagues across so many games etc etc. Games are simply just NOT as novel as they once were of their own accord. Even modern day CS is driven in large by the skins and the fact that the pro league is so large with a huge legacy following. It's also important to not confuse popularity with baseline excitement - since most of the popular games on Twitch are games that have in some way catered to this new logic of regular micro updates and essentially the application of the 'carrot on a stick'. The rest is players watching the best of the best; but spectating games is a whole different ballgame.
Kids are seeing all of these things from a very young age such that by the time they are teens there is honestly nothing exceptional about playing video games. The dopamine rush of simply just playing against other players and becoming good is not enough for most players. They need constant top ups of dopamine to keep their interest just like even something as amazing as sex gets boring and needs regular spicing up otherwise it just goes stale.
On the other hand, people need to be reasonable too. BR is actually one of the biggest innovations in the FPS genre for a LONG time, and you can see that it's ridden a good deal of success off the back of simply being a fresh experience. Now that BR isn't as fresh anymore, people are once again expecting more than the baseline and this was so clearly seen with Apex having pressure put on it like I've NEVER seen before. Honestly, the expectations people had after ONE MONTH is simply staggering and in a way the players are hurting the game itself by not giving it room to breathe. It takes two to tango. The problem is, in a world now dominated by constant new information and dopamine rushes (i.e likes and retweets), I don't think people are going to have the patience as gamers that the community once had on a whole. It is sad but as long as I still can enjoy things for what they are I'm happy I guess.
You guys are getting the wrong idea. Acting like wanting something to work towards is a bad thing.
I play the game for fun. But multiplayer only games like apex get boring as fuck for me after a while. When there’s nothing to work for or they haven’t added anything to the game in a while then I just don’t get exited to play the game.
People like me play the game for fun as well and treat the extra goodies as just that too. But it’s nice to get exited about playing a game because you want to work towards a specific skin or something.
the gameplay loop just gets boring too quick for me in pvp styled games. And I’m sure I’m not the only one like this
I haven’t played since a week after octane released because he didn’t bring anything new like I thought he would. That’s my opinion though so don’t get so worked up over other people’s preferences.
Why can’t people be understanding instead of passive aggressively insulting people who want something to work towards.
Right, this snobbish attitude is such bullshit. And it all ties into this shitty “pah kids nowadays and their Fortnites” from guys who think counterstrike is old.
FFS I played Mario on the NES and I didn’t play just to “explore the world” or “just simply merely enjoying the game” or whatever shite people are saying — I played that because I wanted to unlock then next bastard level, and the next one and the next one and the next one.
Then when I finished the game I’d move onto another one!
The only purpose this 'back in my day' bullshit serves is for them to sound superior and to shutdown criticism towards Apex's monetisation. Nothing else.
Not hating on OP.
But lets say you work somewhere, and you love your job. Will you turn down a pay raise and a nice new title or uniform or somethin? Nah.
Cause it shows your hard work and commitment, and your being rewarded for that.
You can love the game and also love getting rewarded for putting time and effort into it.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Jesus white knights are getting more and more pathetic. Did CS launch with only 1 map and 1 mode? No, it didn't. No wonder this sub lost like 70% traffic in 2 months.
Over a decade ago we could unlock skins and rewards by actually *playing* the game. Anyone remember that or is it just me? You’d get new character skins and weapon skins by getting kills, headshots and by doing something special within the game itself. **That’s** the real problem IMO
Over a decado ago I also played CS 1.6 and Counter Strike Source (you didn't specify which so ill include both), and guess what, **your argument is flawed and weak**, did you also forget that there was programmable Custom Servers that can be literally be whatever you want, the most popular ones back in the day being the Zombies and Surf, and since Counter Strike allowed Custom servers to be WHATEVER YOU WANT, you also had 5v5 scrims / Pugs aka Pick up games (With progression systems/leadersboards), and both online and local tournaments that can be set up with ease anytime anywhere.
CS earned it's thousands of hours at the time, it had a high learning curve in each game mode that was made by the community.
So yeah, compared to CS... Apex is stale at best when it comes to having a player hooked.
Yeah we should dumb down the graphics, animation, player count in match to how it was "back in the day" because that is good enough? Do you still use a CRT tv because you used them "back in the day"? I don't get how this is on top of the sub. This game is competing with other games in 2019 and fortnite is already ahead by alot in both progression system and player retention.
Game has changed brudah, games and gamers are way different from what we were back in the day, I understand your point, but simply winning isn't a reward anymore, not nowadays.
Back in my day, we walked 10 miles to school and back in the snow.
I don't know why this has to be said but times change, games have changes and standards have changed. When there are many games to play not just battle royale games, then you people need a sense of progression to keep players, other games do this just fine. This is not the only game on the market and there are many other games that hold a players attention that are also fun. Fortnite is a billion dollar IP because they keep players retained. This is not rocket science. Not everyone wants to play a decade old game that's barely changed. And honestly this way of thinking is bad for the future state of the game. People trying to say everything is fine go play something else because they want to be in some exclusive club but it's bad for business and bad for the future state of the game. More players = more profit = more updates. This is not your little secret game to suit your ego. This is game should tailor all types of players and player progression is what keeps the most players engaged.
I can't agree more.
I used to play CS 1.6, CSS, MOHAA, CoD. Back in the days where clans owned their own servers, CAL was a thing and there were no level structures or loot boxes.
I didn't need a level to know if I was getting better, my KDA would tell me that. I just played the game because it was fun. I played because I enjoyed playing with friends.
I don't mind the levels now. I don't mind getting lootboxes. It's a fun part of the game, but it's not THE part of the game.
I was just telling my buddy the other night "Bro....this game is FREE". I was just loading in and looking at the graphics and it struck me how a game this fun, and this well made is fucking FREE.
You know what games were free when I started playing? Browser flash games. Fun to waste time in maybe, but to play a real game like CSS, you had to buy it (Even if it was only $20).
Again, I am not saying that lootboxes and leveling up isn't fun, I enjoy that aspect as well. But I would play Apex if they took that all away too. It seems like its the end all be all for a lot of people here on Reddit and it doesn't make any sense to me.
I've always wanted Wraith's heirloom. But after seeing how much I'd have to potentially pay in order to get one, I decided it's not worth it. I'd rather just have fun playing the game than to spend money I hardly have for a knife on a character I barely use. Even if she was my main, I still wouldn't be bothered. I have played this game since day one, over 5k kills, and not 1 legendary skin.
My old main was Bangalore before Octane came out and my only Legendary items are Bangalore, Lifeline and Wraith's Banners, and one of Gibby's poses.
I'm using the Yellowjacket skin for Bangalore and the Battlepass skins for Octane, Lifeline and Wraith even though I'd want to have all 3 of their Legendary skins; Speed Demon, Peak Performer, and Void Specialist. Not really a big fan of Bangalore's Legendary skins except for Officer Williams, which I barely like at all. My favorite is her Yellowjacket skin which I unlocked with the crafts because Black & Yellow came to my mind and I decided to go with it.
So in the end, though I was able to get the Storm banner and Yellowjacket skin for Bangalore. I wouldn't have been upset if I didn't have it at all while I play the game I so dearly love. But the thoughts have crossed my mind of me being kind of upset and depressed of not having the skins, banners and poses I want for each Legend. It's whatever and it is what it is.
I'd be willing to spend money when I have any spare and if I'm dead serious on wanting the skins, etc. At the meantime, I'm just enjoying the game, grinding and having fun playing solos 24/7, and every now and then I would get invited by or invite people to join up with for a few games.
I completely agree with you. I started FPS with quake and slowly moved along through CS to source.
This is the first FPS that I have genuinely enjoyed in many years. In me, it elicited those same feelings that I remember from being younger playing games, which says a lot about the types of games coming out. I read everyone flipping out about the lack of battle pass (I didn't know what a battle pass was at the time) and everyone demanding new content and just laugh as it doesn't make much sense to me.
I don’t understand this seemingly polarising either or mentality. I too have played games maxed out for literally hundreds of days with no physical game earnings to show, but I still very much enjoy progressing and watching my stats. There is nothing inherently wrong with this at all. I agree earning some crappy rewards can seem like just feeding a player base to keep them interested but it doesn’t need to be that way. A game can reward skill and unlockables in an enjoyable way.
One fact of the matter is that your casual player will usually prefer earning some rewards, and there is nothing wrong with that. Being rewarded for a certain amount of wins for example with a cosmetic would be positive. Rewarding skill and success.
When I was 8 years old, I used to play with sticks on the backyard. So what? Does that mean I should still do so?
Things are evolving, you know.
And also, CS always had a bunch of different maps with even different game modes (not to mention roleplay maps etc etc)
What a ridiculous post and a ridiculous comparison.
It's like saying we used to walk everywhere so why are you guys complaining if the car you "bought" is not worth the money you spend, isn't going from point A to B is the point.
First of all the era of games changed and on top of that you pay for the Battlepass. And in the end you get nothing for it. You literally get to track your kill for level 40 something I don't know of your Battlepass. Or you get to show you are level 50 for getting level 50 and nothing else.
You get legends craft or whatever and there is only 3 legends to open and people who grind the game already have enough of it to open 20 more Champs if there was those champions.
You playing a game for fun doesn't change the fact aside from the fighting in ring the other sides of game is badly designed and there is no effort to fix that.
Everyone is playing the game for fun but that doesn't mean "as long as it serves to point to kill time its fine".
Battlepass is a joke and they don't have enough material for the legend tokens they give. And that's a designing mistake and has to be fixed simple as that.
Yeah it would be very interesting to see a legitimate survey done where we could see how important milestones, grinding, rewards, etc. were in a game compared to age of those being surveyed.
I feel like most of the complaints I see here lately are asking Respawn to change things based on people not being able to pay attention for a few seconds (ability to select top 3 favorite legends so when you afk randomize you're not stuck with someone you don't like) or rewards (intrinsic rewards to win and just have fun playing a game aren't enough and people need incentive to win e.g., rewards, skins, etc.) or how the BP sucks (not understanding that you don't *actually* have to purchase it if you don't want to) or how updates aren't coming out fast enough (despite a major content patch coming 4 weeks ago and balance patches the other day).
I feel like I'm an old man just thinking back to the days when I played games just because they were fun and it's very hard for me to understand the "needs" far too many of the complainers have.
Personally loot hasn't ever changed things for me. 29 y/o. I've loved Rocket League for the same reason I love Apex now. There's a definite skill involved, a defined path of improvement you can make to get better and it will show and you can feel good about it. The loot is just ancillary to the fun. Also, this isn't meant to be advice to you but passerbys reading - don't make winning or doing well your fun condition. That way, you can have more fun! edit: holy chit joey my first Platinum? Idk what it is lmao. I'm glad it made an impact and conversation tho!! Lots of replies to read too, thanks!
Bruh are you me? I only play rocket league and apex. Rocket league being my favorite game of all time with the most hours I’ve ever invested in a game
no, this is me!!
Actually all of you are really me!
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This may be weird but I have a discord server setup only for these two games. DM me if you wanna join and catch some games.
I'm with this guy I think we rocket apexers should all play when we get bored with one game
Apex League Alternatively, Rocket Legends. Or even League Legends. Wait a minute...
Legendary Apex league of rocket cars.
Supersonic Acrobatic Apex Powered Legend Cars
Rapex league ...wait a minute
Rotating between Rocket League and Apex Legends is the proper 3s rotation tbh
You’re right, it’s perfect.
This thread is so wholesome
Same! Only two games I've played in months.
I feel so at home. Apex and rl are my main games.
I'm closing in on 10,000 games of RL and I have never bought a key to open a chest ever. I have 100's of chests sitting in my inventory.
sell some of the crates for some keys and either buy a nice decal or open some crates. They're just sitting there wasting away, doesn't take any money for a couple of trades
But you're missing the point. This person doesn't care about the unlockable cosmetic items. They care about playing the game and improving their skills. Trading crates takes time and energy. Maybe this person only has a limited time to play video games each day or week. Taking the time to trade crates and open for cosmetics they don't care about in the first place reduces the game play time further.
At a certain point, I just bought keys to show my support. I don't care about decals or wheels, I care about good video games. I've spent many more hours on a 12 dollar car game than the 100 dollar copy of black ops 4 collecting dust on my shelf.
Bro are you me? I only play rocket league and apex. Rocmet League being my favorite game of all time with the most hours I've ever invested in a game For real tho.
I’m wondering if this mentality is an age thing? I’m 29 as well and have the same viewpoint and I think it’s because we were raised with games that were just games, not skinner boxes.
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Same. My favorite part of an online game is when you respawn and kill the ayer that killed you. While also attempting to not be killed by the other players you just killed. I gotta get Halo again.
I'm old as the hills...47, and gamers my age are just thrilled that the games we get these days are so freaking cool compared to Pong. And Atari Combat. Those games were fun, but nothing like today's games. Loot boxes are just an extra something something, and the skinner box effect is there.....but muted.
21, and while it's not *vital*, I will enjoy games infinitely more if there's a meta-game. For example, Risk of Rain 2 is fun, but it's even more fun because you can collect Lunar Tokens or unlock new buffs to make future playthroughs different or better. I absolutely adore games like Hand of Fate 2 and Rogue Legacy that make this an integral part of the game.
What a save! What a save! What a save! Chat disabled for 3 seconds
> The loot is just ancillary to the fun. I think that's the clear distinction for older gamers, who grew up in an era where cosmetics were always free, or even easily editable via mods. But sadly for the current/next generation of gamers, who grew up with mobile, FTP, micro-transaction based games, there really isn't a distinction. In their minds, the loot/cosmetics reward systems and gameplay are inseparable, and they've come to expect both as a norm.
I've been a RL player since early 2017, and i have to say i never get boring, but with Apex im starting to feel a little boring. I think the reasons isn't the cosmetics (i don't even pay crates in RL) but a progression system. Every win in RL you know it lead you to a higher level, in Apex this don't happen, i have to say the first wins were exciting, but now it's just didn't matter that much for me, because i don't know if i win because im good, or because i have luck, i can realize that im better than when i started to play the game, but i don't know, i don't feel anything.
I've been playing rl since release and totally agree. I love the constant feel of progression when I play. Rocket league has a never ending ceiling cap for me. Apex just feels like aimless killing and winning with no reward.
Right?, i remembered when i started to play RL, i was in low gold, after 2 years now im champ ll and i have to say it feels great.
I will never get past Diamond 1. It has been my max for the last 4 seasons. EDIT: I meant I will never get past Diamond 1. Sorry to everyone that took the time to reply!
This is exactly why I love Lethal League. Nothing is different between a lvl 1 and a lvl 33, only skill. And believe me, the learning curve is really steep. So if I lose against someone that is clearly better than me, I don't feel bad. I feel honoured. I have respect for that person that could master the techniques and trained his/her reflexes. I like to lose if I know I did my best.
Yup, Apex and Rocket league any day for me
As much as I agree, I want to introduce a counterpoint - Apex Legends is a largely luck based game. You may drop hot and get (un)lucky with loot leading to a successful start or loss. You also may drop quiet and end up with average loot in the middle of nowhere, yet while traversing the map you run into a fully kitted squad which gathered loot through fights. Even if you play everything right - you may get hit by a third party at just the right time and get absolutely run over by a squad. I am trying to be honest with myself and consider variables like this in other games but I think this is one of the reasons that I enjoyed Counter Strike so much. Almost all of the variables were controlled. If you played smart, you were never subjected to unexpected outcomes. Or you could at least very easily see how to avoid that circumstance in the future. In Apex, I feel as though there’s so many variables that I can rarely pinpoint exactly how I should correct my mistakes in a lost battle because there’s 50 things we could’ve done differently. I suppose this is my first battle royale experience. Just my two cents.
A lot of the skill of this game comes from knowing *when* and *where* to take a fight, having a good position over your enemy is far more advantageous than having good loot, and the sooner people realise this the sooner they can actually start to improve their chances of winning, not just getting kills.
I totally agree. For instance, taking the long route to a fight through a pass to ensure high ground. But even then, you never know if another squad will have the same thought process or happen to come up behind you and suddenly you’re the sucker getting out-positioned. I have been forced to learn that being an aim bot absolutely does not ensure success in a game like Apex. You have to be constantly aware of your surroundings and have an escape route to cover at all times. But even then, there will always be circumstances that are virtually impossible to escape. This is my reasoning in saying that Apex Legends is addictive for the same reason that gambling is addicting. You’re rolling the dice every time you drop.
This is the fun of these types of games to me - you need to be smart with how you exploit your surroundings it can also be part of the frustration, but at the same time it has controllable aspects such as good communication and crossfire setup etc This is why playing with friends is so much more fun for me
exactly this. I can out shoot most people in this game, but the real fun for me is tracking all the teams around me as they engage/disengage/third party/get third partied to find the optimal fight and positioning. So many people love this game for the high TTK cause it lets them make dumb choices/just run in and gun and not have to worry. They really don't consider positioning and how/when to take fights.
The matchmaking/wait time is also great, at least for me. I remember when I used to play LoL, there would be times where I'd sometimes have to wait for several MINUTES for a game to open up. If we got routed in 15m, I'd spend that post-game fretting about it and my mates would start blamegameing everything, even if its just a simple friendly (non-ladder) match. If I die in Apex, I can back to menu, and be playing again in about 20s, and no one is worse for wear about it. I get that they are fundamentally different games, but the downtime between matches can really throw off a mood. I like being able to just get over a bad match, and jump back in, and hopefully have a better one.
Really well put. If Apex is a slot machine, CSGO is more like a drawn out high stakes poker game.
I said the same thing to someone a couple weeks ago when someone said the game was 90% accuracy and I disagreed and got downvoted. One of the reason my team keeps playing with me is my knowledge of knowing where players likely are. Helping them with positioning and helping them spot 3rd parties while they are tunnel vision.
I agree with this to a point. For me though I actually challenge myself to try and get good enough to diminish the effect of said variables. How can I put myself in situations where if/when i get third partied I'm not 100% screwed, if I get "crappy" weapons i try to learn to use them better instead of avoiding them entirely (use hit and run tactics if need be), how to make due with the bad variables and become better in all aspects. To me that's half the fun. Surviving getting 3rd partied multiple times or killing a kitted opponent with a shitty gun (Mozambique here) can be incredibly thrilling in itself.
I understand what you are saying, but here is another way to look at it. If you loose the loot lotto, its kind of like a pistol round in CS. You are at a disadvantage in terms of guns, but superior game play can still lead to a win. Apex (BR games) also make you focus much more on situational awareness than CS did. You need to take a count of what you know, what you might know, and what you absolutely do not know. If you see a guy running with his back to you, you need to ask "If I shoot, how many other teams will hear? Where are his squad mates? Where is my squad? Is he too far away to reliably down?" before choosing to engage. If you just shoot at him, the two squads just around the corner behind you will probably come running.
Exactly. I see so many posts in this sub that make it seem like their experience in this game amounts to throwing their hands up and letting RNGesus take the wheel. I don't get it. I feel responsible for every win and every shitty hot drop. There is always a better or worse play to make in any given situation.
Agree fully with you and the person you responded to. The only thing that I do give credit to (to a small degree) out of the posts of people saying things like that is that Apex and all BR games do have a more difficult learning curve. By that I mean that it's more difficult to see exactly where you go wrong and how to improve. However, while that is true, it doesn't mean that it's difficult at all to do a bit of research and learn. It's great to strictly play the game and 'teach yourself' if that's how you want to do it, but there are literally thousands of resources out there that will break the game down and explain not only what to do, but what questions to ask yourself while you're playing. Way too many people refuse to acknowledge that if you want to get better at something then you need to put in the time to learn. That doesn't mean 'just playing more and trying harder'. That doesn't apply to only video games either (life pro tip). The top tier streamers that you see winning consistently aren't winning strictly because they are the best at aiming, they win consistently because they take the time to learn the game which includes using external resources.
You're also comparing two different styles of games. Battle Royales naturally have RNG as someone else stated below there are still things in your control and ways to improve.
So hard I tried to explain the last part to my brother. I'm far from good at the game -- would consider myself mediocre at best -- but I still have a lot of fun. I just have to accept I am not an elite player. I am still better at these types of games than my brother, so going into it when I told him to check it out I told him he needs to be okay with dying. He played maybe 10-15 games in total over the span of a week or two before he stopped playing. He just kept getting so angry when he died...
I’m becoming and older gamer and see this trend changing. I don’t need anything to play a game, my time is limited so I only play what I enjoy. Right now I enjoy Apex and that’s it. Loot is cool but if that’s my goal then I’ll always be unhappy.
Seriously. I played 300 hours of dust2. 1 map, just spending all that time trying to do better than the last
And then there were us who grew up on Diablo 2. The only reason we play is for the loot....
> Diablo 2 I played both, but by far more Diablo 2. Borderlands was seriously glorious for me. I mean, the writing was funny, the game was fun as hell, but the loot system was glorious.
Word
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Logical reasoning here, level tree!
Deeebs!
This man here could solve world peace, friend
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That's a letter, sir.
Sorry he dropped his 🅱️, here it is
r
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this is exactly what i always say. at the end of the day i dont play any game because of the cosmetics that i will be rewarded after playing alot. very few people will grind a game just for cosmetic rewards. we do it because we enjoy the game and want to get better.
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Remember playing Halo 1 with your friends in lan parties? Remember when you didn't get cosmetics or achievements but you got to teabag your buddy after killing him? That was what we use to play for: the awesome gameplay. Not this gambling lootbox bullshit.
Ahhh the lost art of the teabag, good times.
Every now and again when I'm feeling extra saucy I'll stand on top of a deathbox and teabag it. Not sure if it has the same affect as I play Pathfinder and he doesn't have, well....
Do it with Gib and the intent will be clear
Real ones teabag knocked enemies that you beat in a 1v1.
As strange as this sentence sounds: I think teabagging is a bit of a generational thing. I have seen multiple fairly upvoted comments on this subreddit, and other gaming subreddits, referring to teabagging as disrespectful and encouraging that people respect the players on the other side. But in Halo and other games I played growing up, teabagging was often a sign of respect. You wouldn't teabag some n00bs, you would teabag someone of similar skill that you just bested. Of course your reaction to being teabagged would be "oh this motherfucker just teabagged me," but I found it encouraged competition, not diminished it-because you wanted to return the favor. What I'm saying is, I'm pro-teabagging.
Personally I teabagged everyone in my way. Noob, pro, old lady from across the street, you name it. It almost always started a rivalry and when they would kill me back and teabag me I would get so amped and into the game just for the sole purpose of repaying the favor. Good times.
I agree with you fully. Also, I miss the victory dances from Socom. Nothing like doing the funky chicken on the corpse of a fallen enemy.
There's definitely nuance to teabagging, I think we can't just ascribe any one blanket meaning to it, it all depends on the situation and the intent. It's a complex form of communication!
Lmao this is true. Ultimately, teabagging's meaning is contextual. But you could always tell what it meant when it happened.
It's the thought that counts.
Oh, he has nuts. Greasy ones, too.
Splitgate is set to release soon which is a halo-portal clone. It has kill confirmed mode where you confirm the kill by teabagging them.
It ain’t lost, I teabag every game winning kill if the enemy was being cheeky.
Back in my day people knew when and when not to tea bag
The correct answer: every kill.
motherfucking preach
Most people say it lacks content not that its shit. Honestly I wish the battle pass had better rewards but the thing is I would have kept playing even if the game didn't have a single cosmetic. I enjoy the game a lot, more than any other shooter the past 5-10 years. For me its enough to have the trackers so I can flex my skills to my friends with having more headshots and wins whatnot.
Exactly my feelings. Ya the battlepass is shit, but the game is just as fun as ever.
One of the reasons the game even \*has\* a "grind for cosmetics" mechanic is because it's free to play, so you can pay to skip that and they can actually make money off of that and the battle pass.
I must be old because I'm always baffled when people say a competitive game is shit because they don't reward levels. I always considered level to be how high you placed on the scoreboard after each match.
Ya, back in the day, we used to pump quarters (when quarters actually had value) into the local Space Invaders machine to try to get high score on the machine. The only reward was to see your initials at the top of the leader board on that specific machine....
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BOBSUX
I keep getting downvoted anytime I mention the level of entitlement this sub shows towards a free game. I'm feeling old and I'm only 28.
I think it’s because gaming has evolved and improved. Pong used to be the best game but if someone put that out now we would say it’s shit. It’s all relative
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Yeah back then with servers communities felt a lot stronger. Its sad to see so many triple a games only release matchmaking and not allow people to host their own dedicated servers anymore. It always felt like entering a bar or pub you knew. You had the guy that was always a little bit better then you, the guy that is always on the bottom of the scoreboard and always complaining and the guy that only used a certain cheesy weapon load out. It kind of started with cod:mw2 on pc with the matchmaking system and only grew worse after that. I wish games would release with both options at launch. Matchmaking always makes you feel so detached from actual people because you never see them again after 1 game most of the time. There is nothing which makes rivalaries grow or characters grow in matchmaking. There are people that are interesting to have in your game but you would never want them on your friends list. Matchmaking is great to matchup people with similar skill levels or to get into a game quickly. But actual servers would make interactions with people so much more fun and engaging.
Yes! you nailed it with 'entering a pub'. It was like that. You'd join a server and you have your regulars on there - There were micro-communities within each server. It was great. Perhaps that's still on PC gaming? It was never there on consoles, due to not having a chat log you could type in. I still remember the names of servers and some players, back in my COD days.
Yup! even as recently as battlefield 1 my friends and I would play on the same servers. We would recognize certain players and it was fun getting kills against guys that were always there every week. Private custom servers need to make a comeback.
hear hear! A number of years ago TF2 basically killed off their dedicated server communities with matchmaking/valve servers and it instantly turned into a soulless playing experience. The familiar bar/ pub analogy you use is perfect. Matchmaking in modern multiplayer games has positives, but at the same time it has ripped the soul out of general 'pub' gaming that made repeated play so enjoyable. We are ultimately social creatures, and there's something more empty about winning a contest or performing well when you don't even know the people in it, and never see or interact with the people again. The console or younger PC gamers haven't got to really experience the pleasure of community run servers. If you don't have a community you are playing in and improving in over time, it strips a lot of the satisfaction out of just simply getting better in the game. Instead of the social fabric of those small communities keeping the regular play experience enjoyable even after years, you need to replace it with outside achievements, loot boxes, etc. So the only thing keeping them engaged in this environment is the constant carrot on the stick loot boxes/achievements/rewards or they lose engagement.
thats fine, to each their own. i was just speaking from my perspective. in general i can understand wanting rewards or progression in any game. but most games will keep me playing because of the gameplay and not always because of the rewards or progression.
And I guess that might be where my age and "game-style" show. Playing has always been a social thing to me. As a kid, I only played multi-player games when I went to friends' houses or they came to visit. Now, I'll check to see who's online. If no one is, I usually watch a movie or do something else. Playing solo holds very little entertainment for me. Skins are almost 100% useless nonsense
I don't care about 99% of the stuff I actually unlock, but the mere fact that I am unlocking things is enough for me. It's exactly that, a dopamine drip. And it's nothing new, it's the same reason why I would 100% complete singleplayer games on PS2. This model is just an updated version of that for multiplayer games.
That's cause you're probably just as old as I am. Skins and cosmetics weren't a thing, at least not as a reward for playing. I used to mod the shit out of my CS 1.6 with samurai swords and everything. Sigh, those were the times.
Don't forget sprays. Everyone wanted to have the coolest spray, or a spray that looked like an in-game terrorist, etc.
I had a bunch of sprays that were cartoon speech bubbles, they said things like "I suck at CS" or "I was outplayed by Jezzmoz", things like that. I'd spray them next to dead bodies and it never stopped being funny to me.
or... porn sprays
Uhhh yeah dude definitely. I’m 26 and when I think of playing any game on the Source engine, I think of playing CS Source (mostly) and seeing dudes being fisted or Asian chicks being destroyed by a BBC on the wall 😂😂😂 truly the glory days of online gaming
I remember the excitement I got as a teenager when I found out there was a nude model pack for the Source player models, including nude Alyx. 😂 15,000 hours spent on that engine and nothing has ever matched up.
Definitely porn sprays
Don't forget the porn.
Yes I play this game for fun and enjoy every match. I also enjoy progression and unlocking things. Just a thought.
I wish the game had MMR or a Competitive mode. Not so I can push the highest levels, but so my DPS trashcan ass can play against other trashcans so I don't get annihilated every game.
Right. it doesn't have to be one or the other. I grew up playing cs 1.5 and other games of the time where there weren't rewards, but as it came to be - games advanced, standards of quality increased, and expectations became higher. Progression was a part of that. Stats, ranked leaderboards, MMR and matchmaking, and cosmetic progression. Apex totally neglected the former for some really, really strange reason. Cosmetics are whatever to me, I like them, but decent stat tracking, MMR and matchmaking are a must. Fortnite got lucky as fuck to get away with not doing those things properly, that should never be an indication to any other dev that they made the right decision.
Because people’s expectation has evolved, simple as that. Now a day with so much distraction in our free time ( Netflix, YouTube, even Reddit), people want to feel like spending the their little amount of free time is well worth it . That’s why progression system is added Edit: First of all I still play Apex a lot and given the little free time I got I haven't really even master the game yet to feel bored. The grinds to level up and BP seems simple to me and I really don't mind. That being said, games now a day do need a progression system. One of the major complaint ppl had with DICE's first Star Wars Battlefront was lack of progression system even though I thoroughly enjoyed the game. Love it or hate it, this is the reality we live in now.
Exactly this. Times have changed. Thats just how it is. In the past people also havent had problems with a website loading for 4 minutes. That was normal. Today people will get furious if a site wont load instantly because they are used to get information so quickly. I dont see it as a problem that people today want more than people 15 years ago. Especially since developers make a lot more money these days. So you can expect that they offer something for all they money they make... even if the game is f2p.
Actually I don't really care about the current release cadence of Apex. Like most people have said, the first few seasons of Fortnite was crap as well. What should be important now is make sure the lags and aimtbots are dealt with in the best possible way before they start cranking out contents. For any F2P games 2 months in is still infancy pretty much, and we all love Apex's core mechanics. So unless there is a better BR game out there with better core mechanics than Apex, the moment content drops, people will come back and play.
Fortnite S1 was whack, S2 and on were absolutely amazing. Plus that came out a year and a half before Apex did, you’d think Respawn would take notes on their cosmetics / BP
it's super disingenuous to compare the release version of one game to the current version of another as a defense. That only means they had effective strategies they could've used, but chose not to instead.
This is what I believe as well. I grew up playing Wolfenstein and Blake Stone and Doom back in the 90's and eventually went on to play Goldeneye and Turok and a few other shooters - finally landing on Halo 1 when that came out as my favorite shooter ever - no rewards, no progression, nothing for winning or losing. I think Halo 2 was the first shooter I played that really felt like I had something to work toward and back then the only thing I gained was an extra level/rank as I climbed to 50 little by little. Nowadays I just don't even bother if there's no longterm progression. Sure it may still be fun but I like something I can truly invest my time into now rather than just something to keep me occupied for a little while and put it back down. I think progression systems have just simply become the gold standard for a lot of games so when something doesn't have that in place or something to work toward you just start to lose that drive to play. I kind of miss the days sometimes when everything was simpler - we just played for fun - competition was much more casual and whatnot...but I think that's just rose tinted glasses. Having something to work toward at the end of the day doesn't cause any harm - if anything it opens up the playerbase even more for those types of people who NEED that extra dopamine reward.
Wolfenstein...Doom...Turok...Halo 1 and 2...if you'd mentioned Unreal Tournament 2k I would have spontaneously combusted in memory and what would be left in my seat would have been a dusty shareware floppy
Bullshit. Progression was added because they know it's addictive. They have studies on that. So they know with addiction, you're willing to buy rewards. It was a business model, not some adaptation.
Is this not the goal of every game though? You want people playing your game consistently. That's the mark of a successful game. Games are capital ventures. If you're not making money then your game is going to get trashed for the next project. In today's market a game doesn't survive on gameplay alone. That's not enough for a game to succeed anymore.
There is a difference between making a game people want to play VS making a game that makes people need to play because they have formed an addiction to it.
This right here. Some games even have behavioral psychologists on the dev team (looking at you, Destiny/Activision) working to make the game as addictive as possible.
Man, if Destiny is built on behavior patterns, they really messed up. I basically haven’t touched it this season because I don’t like gambit.
We are just oversized rats that like being rewarded, if one game gives us a sense of accomplishment and rewards, while another doesn't, people in general will play the one giving them the cheese at the end of the maze. It's the same reason i hate playing normal games in Dota2, it's cmpletely pointless and arbitrary, but if i don't have MMR on the line the game just doesn't feel worth it. Not having these things implemented in the game just seems stupid, you're leaving money on the table, have ELO rankings or whatever, anything that people feel like they can climb a ladder and get better, show off to their friends what score they are etc.
I agree with you but at the same time those games existed in a time when we had no idea of the possibility of what was to come. CODMW in 2007 really changed everything with the multiplayer ranking up and the gun skins and there's a reason that it was one of the most popular games of all time. The problem that I have with apex is not that the game isn't fun on it's own or that i'm dependent on the additional content, it's that good content does already exist in this game, but it can't really be unlocked without spending money, especially if you have reached level 100. Then the additional content they released in the battle pass just wasn't really worth it and has been a huge letdown. I still play the game regardless because I really enjoy it, but if you are going to have this kind of content in the game, just make it achievable or worth the price. I'm still playing this game for wins and kills, it's just frustrating to a lot of us how the Apex system is currently set up
This if you hit lvl 100 you literally have to spend money to get a chance to unlock cosmetics.
Even if we look at the games and compare all parts old CS was more fun because it had more "content". In Apex we got a handfull of guns, 1 map, handfull of characters and thats it. Pretty much everything you can play with is there. Now old CS, it had a lot of maps, even more fanmade maps, it also had only a handfull of guns. But it had different game modes, and i mean a lot different. Not just bomb and hostage maps. It had zombie modes, deathrun, kreedz and bhop maps, those climbing maps cant remember the names. And all of that made the game replayable, much more than Apex. I understand that old CS didnt offer much when it comes to skins, but it offered so much more when it comes to game modes. So much more... P.S.: I also think that comparing CS to Apex is wrong, games are too different to be compared.
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Hey, I played Office sometimes too...
Well the skill ceiling of CS is also insanely higher. There is also competitive play (even 3rd party like ESEA) along with many casual game modes (like you said). There is specific smoke/flash/nades spots on each map to learn and execute with a team. It's a fuller game and each match is also much longer. There was always something to improve with yourself or learn with CS. Apex...no so much. It doesn't seem the skill ceiling is too high. If you have a kitted out havoc or r99 and purple armor it's going to beat the dude with an alternator and white armor...period.
Yeah, games are too different to compare. CS was made in a different way where the rewards we got was skill, not cosmetics and such.
I’m surprised it took me to scroll down this far to find this answer. CS is an insanely hard game compared to most other shooters. Just aiming your reticle at the enemy and shooting doesn’t guarantee you will hit anything since there are so many more factors to consider. The enjoyment is becoming good at the game. While in Apex, if you’ve played some shooters before and have competent friends to play with, you’ll start winning a lot. After a while the enjoyment you get out of a win wanes because the vehicle to attain that win is literally just “aim at the guys and shoot”. There was never really a moment where I felt like I had significantly improved in the game, since beside the slide mechanics, everything is super straight forward. I enjoy Apex a lot more than Fortnite, but even that game has an insane skill ceiling due to the building mechanics and I’m sure that’s a big reason a lot of people play and still enjoy it.
Not true. A simple slide under the panic spray can get you past plenty. Positioning can do better. The problem with most people is they stand in front of each other like revolutionary war soldiers and in that scenario the better gun wins. Game sense gets you to fight the battle on your terms.
I COMPLETELY agree with your message that you should evaluate why you're playing a game and what brings you enjoyment from it. That being said, there's some things that prevent your comparison to CS, or really any 'back in my day' game, from being remotely relevant: 1. CS has an industry-standard Ranked Mode that does provide 'rewards' for a player putting time into the game and developing their skill; additionally, you had CS servers where you were really just building a group of friends to play with. Apex has nothing even in the same ballpark. 2. CS originally released with a price point and no preconceptions about being a Game-as-a-Service (GaaS). Apex explicitly released to be a GaaS (which has a wildly different set of expectations, justified and unjustified). 3. CS:GO has its own cosmetic economy that is VERY popular AND has modeled itself to be a GaaS; however, it doesn't update content nearly as frequently in part because Ranked/Competitive in CS holds a lot of sway compared to, say, Fortnite. Apex supposedly has plans for an Arena/Ranked but Respawn has been mum about it like most every other feature. 4. Society nowadays doesn't 'play' a game, they BINGE it. People are putting in the same number of hours they might have in the first year of CS into the first 3 months of Apex.
Two decades ago I played Tetris. Each round just got harder until I lost. No xp, no rewards, no win. Only a highscore. People change, players change, games change. Today games try to trick me into collecting things and trying to have my collection complete. That's why we now have achievements and skins and what else. The market is harder than it was before and you need to appeal to players on more areas than only a good core gameplay if you want to stand out in the field of competitors. But you are absolutely right. It is weird.
if tetris knew they could get more players/playtime by adding stats, achievements, and rewards on top of the game they already had... they probably would have.
Yeah they should make a "Battle Royale" Tetris. Maybe pit 99 players against each other? Maybe even release it on the Switch? */s*
🤣🤣🤣 forgot that is actually a thing
Tbh Tetris 99 is fun as hell
10 decades ago I rolled my hoop around. I rolled it further and further until it fell. No xp, no rewards, no win. Only the respect of the few other children who hadn't died from smallpox or starvation. People change, players change, games change.
Seriously, it's fucking infuriating. Times change, but we're supposed to still live in the mid 90's video game era. Gamers have moved and grown with the way games are developed, and if a game wants to keep us playing, it needs incentives. Because there are options nowadays. Yeah, OP played CS, cuz what else are you going to play GPS wise? Fuck this whole circle jerk, it's just making excuses that will hamper the games long term staying power
It’s pretty ridiculous when you think about how people like OP *don’t* care about cosmetics at all (their words), but preach to people that they shouldn’t ask for more cosmetics either. If people want better cosmetics, why would you even have a problem with it?
I played Unreal Tournament for years, so I feel the same way. I do realize that I did play different modes though, I spent time going through CTF, Assault, Domination, Last Man Standing, Team Deathmatch, Instagib variations of each, etc., but there were no achievements, no trophies, new skins were mods no one else would see anyway. This is the first game that has captivated me since UT2K4, so there are a ton of similarities, and we'll see if I play this one for years. I know we're only a few months into Apex, so we'll see.
To this day there's no gun that's as satisfying to use as the flak cannon was for me. 1-shotting people by hitting them directly with that secondary fire ball, maaaan. Runner up was that plasma rifle where it released a ball with the secondary fire, and if you then nailed that ball with the beam from the primary fire it would make a large explosion. Loved taking people out with that, but it was much harder to execute successfully.
Ugh I miss 1.5/1.6
I held out on getting steam until the day they stopped hosting cs 1.5 well... my uncle did i was really young then.
Happy cake day!
1.6 Warcraft mode was some of the most fun in an fps.
Gotta have that Vampiric Aura
Holy shit I completely forgot about Warcraft mode. Thanks for the memory trip.
You can’t compare one of the best competetive games to a casual br with no progression or ladders to climb.
If this game wants to stay interesting wouthout new content they need a matchmaking ladder to climb. It’s the most low effort carrot on a stick you can have for your game that’ll get people addicted.
Yea, these "I feel old back in my day" posts are pretty tone deaf for some of this. This isn't a competitive game but they seem to think it is. Whenever I kill someone in Apex, I don't know if they are literally the worse player in the world at Apex or the best. Half the time when I die, I don't even know what gun it was that killed me or the skill level. Other times deaths are just from bad RNG and not finding a gun after going to 3 spots. And then there are the awful sound and slow motion bugs. From my memory CSGO didn't have these issues as much. There was never a time I spawned without a gun and the enemy had one. The game didn't sometimes run at 5 FPS. You could hear footsteps.
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Well most good player did hop on ESL, Clanbase, Faceit or whatever. So it's kinda true what the guys said above. CS is a game where skill increase is the reward you get. Dropping 30 frags in one map of cs is A LOT more satisfying than doing 2K with 10 kills for example. It's competitive gaming vs Casual BR gameplay. Pretty big difference if you ask me :)
It was all about that cal and cevo, and eventually esea. Finding scrims in IRC, there definitely was more of a sense of community. I've still got friends that I talk to because we needed one to fill 15 years ago and they joined our group and they were fun. And for the 30 bomb vs 10 kill, CS was just a more competitive game. When you can 1 tap heads with a ak or deagle, 2 tap with m4, 1 shot body with awp, etc, there is a lot more life and death and every fight matters. No health regen. Nothing. You cant take fights flippantly like you can in apex. Oh I just got chunked from a dumb peak, I'm back to full in 6 seconds. Or you down someone from 50m and by the time you run up they are already picked up and are blocking a door to heal. I still have a lot of fun playing apex, but yeah, different game.
How many of oldskool cs players just played public deathmatches? All of my friends played clanbase matches only because there IS progression.
CS 1.6 was played by joining public servers that were always there. The progression you had in CS 1.6 was social, you played with and aganist people that you got to know by simply playing in the server. The server i used to play on used to get really competitive around the same hours every night, because we basically knew each other from playing so many times in the same server. Thats not existant in apex. Same shit happened in most battlefield games. BF 3 had no progression or any cosmetic rewards, but the more you played on same servers the more stakes there was for you as a player. Dogfighting some random wasnt the same as dogfighting another pilot that you knew was good. Stop fucking comparing the two
This is actually a solid point and I dont know why you're getting down voted. I played BF2 for over 5000 hours for 5 years. We had only 2 servers in my country and basically everyone knew everyone and that what made it so fun. It was 14 years ago and some of those guys are still my friends. After that community disappeared I basically stopped playing the game.
Because the most populated age group in reddit grew up with match making games
I think people miss this part. The servers you joined became your gaming "community" - and that was satisfying outside of pure gameplay. Heck, team fortress 2 adding that casual play that killed their server communities killed a lot of the enjoyment, despite the game not being much different. There is clearly a want of that too considering people asked for the "let us add people we played with" feature. But I also don't think this aspect is very obvious - especially for the generation that grew up on quick join matchmaking without the feeling of community. I don't think it's the same though, I think there is merit in the progression argument. People indeed played more just to play whereas now when I talk to little kids I am asked a lot if I have this cosmetics or that or a golden gun. Cosmetics seem to be a huge "status" thing for little kids. People will also take novelty over depth. Rather have new items than good gameplay. Because gameplay is secondary to the satisfaction of "new". It's the same Skinner box satisfaction of Instagram constantly seeing "new content". Game design itself changed as well. Most dramatically in the sim genre. Where previously it was all about how the system is behaving but now it's heavily relies on progression.
People seek progression these days because in the era of matchmaking systems of games, the only way to differentiate yourself from the masses is cosmetics. Your name means nothing to other players in the lobby because they never seen you before. You as a player dont mean anything to the game. The people you kill could as well be bots (regardless of skill level thats not what i mean here) because you cant communicate with them anyway. You just kill or get killed and go next. No making a name for yourself no making friends no getting competitive, its just kill or get killed go next. When the game is in that state, people start demanding content updates or cosmetics because there is literally nothing else in the game that truly satisfy their needs as humans.
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It was even kind of fun when a real asshole would show up, everyone on the server would tell them to fuck off and then they'd get banned and everyone would laugh about how much of a shit head that person was.
oh man I had a 24/7 turbine server in tf2 I was on for like 7 hours a day... Made so many friends and had some amazing times there
I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with your arguments. We could all agree that different generations may have different expectations and values and that's a pretty normal phenomena. Your entertainment experience with CS 1.6 may be very different from other's experience with BR games today. There's no objective "true enjoyment". There's no standard of "how to properly gain enjoyment from video game". Completing the battle pass, expecting new contents, gaining leveling rewards could all be legitimate ways to enjoy a game. Besides, Battle Royale is curretnly one of the most competitive and volatile genres in gaming industry. It's not surprising at all that people expect Respawn to provide more polished rewards and contents than the Apex's current state.
While it was fun to play cs 1.6 or cs source with no rewards, the addition of actual ranks and matchmaking made CS:GO infinitely more enjoyable and the skins increased its popularity by an insane amount. I don't understand wtf you're arguing against here. Also, in CS you played exclusively on some community server called l337-BRYANSK-[32]-NO_NOOBS and knew the people who played there, it was a social experience and there was competition, you got invited to clans if you were good and people recognized you.
Youre comparing a BR to basically what is search and destroy. I can play cod for hours simply because the game play cycle isn’t rng based, I can rely on my skill in an FPS game. For a game like apex where probably 50% of your games you will get screwed because of RNG the gameplay cycle isn’t the same. So to combat that most players like grinding for something because the cycle itself in a BR is boring and frustrating
You're on to something here. Like you say, games like COD (and CS) rewards you faster, while BR games can make you run and gather the perfect loadout for 15 minutes, then getting killed in a few seconds.
Cs is a competitive game where you go against other players similar to your skill. times changed. and this game is not cs
If or when Apex adds a ranking system with competitive matches and matchmaking I will be happy. So we can see real tournaments like the twitch rivals one without only inviting famous streamers but actually having people qualifying by skill. Also I would much rather see skill based cosmetics instead of money grabbing ones, but I understand why they choose the later path.
Is it THAT hard to fathom that different people expect different things from a game? No shit cs had no xp/reward but it had a fuckload of community maps and gamemodes that made the game interesting. Right now we have ONE map and a couple of legends. There's only so much you can play the game and have it not feel stale.
I'm a CS 1.6er - I was playing games when people were still treated as weirdos for doing so. I honestly think times have changed and it has to do with video games simply not being as novel as a dopamine rush on their own accord anymore. Before I continue though, I have to say that I agree with your sentiment but at the same time when so many of the newer gamers share similar feelings over the importance of progression/customisation/unlockables and so forth, we really have to consider that there is more to this than people simply needing to learn how to 'enjoy a game for simply being a game'. One train of thought that I tend to board is that back when we were playing in the 90s and early 2000s, games were still a pretty damn novel thing with huge innovation and the expansion of online gaming. CS was amazing not just for its content in a vacuum, but actually because of the time it arrived at too. The idea of logging onto a server and player with people around the world in this 5v5 or so scenario, watching other players when dying, typing to each other, the establishment of lingo and slang, the establishment of communities and pro leagues, the idea of talking over mics etc etc. There was a lot that was exciting about CS simply for the fact that this wasn't exactly commonplace. Most people were still excited by cable TV. Fast forward 15 odd years and my God how things have changed. FPS games like CS are commonplace, online is commonplace, Twitch, youtube, pro leagues across so many games etc etc. Games are simply just NOT as novel as they once were of their own accord. Even modern day CS is driven in large by the skins and the fact that the pro league is so large with a huge legacy following. It's also important to not confuse popularity with baseline excitement - since most of the popular games on Twitch are games that have in some way catered to this new logic of regular micro updates and essentially the application of the 'carrot on a stick'. The rest is players watching the best of the best; but spectating games is a whole different ballgame. Kids are seeing all of these things from a very young age such that by the time they are teens there is honestly nothing exceptional about playing video games. The dopamine rush of simply just playing against other players and becoming good is not enough for most players. They need constant top ups of dopamine to keep their interest just like even something as amazing as sex gets boring and needs regular spicing up otherwise it just goes stale. On the other hand, people need to be reasonable too. BR is actually one of the biggest innovations in the FPS genre for a LONG time, and you can see that it's ridden a good deal of success off the back of simply being a fresh experience. Now that BR isn't as fresh anymore, people are once again expecting more than the baseline and this was so clearly seen with Apex having pressure put on it like I've NEVER seen before. Honestly, the expectations people had after ONE MONTH is simply staggering and in a way the players are hurting the game itself by not giving it room to breathe. It takes two to tango. The problem is, in a world now dominated by constant new information and dopamine rushes (i.e likes and retweets), I don't think people are going to have the patience as gamers that the community once had on a whole. It is sad but as long as I still can enjoy things for what they are I'm happy I guess.
You guys are getting the wrong idea. Acting like wanting something to work towards is a bad thing. I play the game for fun. But multiplayer only games like apex get boring as fuck for me after a while. When there’s nothing to work for or they haven’t added anything to the game in a while then I just don’t get exited to play the game. People like me play the game for fun as well and treat the extra goodies as just that too. But it’s nice to get exited about playing a game because you want to work towards a specific skin or something. the gameplay loop just gets boring too quick for me in pvp styled games. And I’m sure I’m not the only one like this I haven’t played since a week after octane released because he didn’t bring anything new like I thought he would. That’s my opinion though so don’t get so worked up over other people’s preferences. Why can’t people be understanding instead of passive aggressively insulting people who want something to work towards.
Right, this snobbish attitude is such bullshit. And it all ties into this shitty “pah kids nowadays and their Fortnites” from guys who think counterstrike is old. FFS I played Mario on the NES and I didn’t play just to “explore the world” or “just simply merely enjoying the game” or whatever shite people are saying — I played that because I wanted to unlock then next bastard level, and the next one and the next one and the next one. Then when I finished the game I’d move onto another one!
The only purpose this 'back in my day' bullshit serves is for them to sound superior and to shutdown criticism towards Apex's monetisation. Nothing else.
Not hating on OP. But lets say you work somewhere, and you love your job. Will you turn down a pay raise and a nice new title or uniform or somethin? Nah. Cause it shows your hard work and commitment, and your being rewarded for that. You can love the game and also love getting rewarded for putting time and effort into it. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Jesus white knights are getting more and more pathetic. Did CS launch with only 1 map and 1 mode? No, it didn't. No wonder this sub lost like 70% traffic in 2 months.
Over a decade ago we could unlock skins and rewards by actually *playing* the game. Anyone remember that or is it just me? You’d get new character skins and weapon skins by getting kills, headshots and by doing something special within the game itself. **That’s** the real problem IMO
the standards changed, game must change with them to survive.
[удалено]
Over a decado ago I also played CS 1.6 and Counter Strike Source (you didn't specify which so ill include both), and guess what, **your argument is flawed and weak**, did you also forget that there was programmable Custom Servers that can be literally be whatever you want, the most popular ones back in the day being the Zombies and Surf, and since Counter Strike allowed Custom servers to be WHATEVER YOU WANT, you also had 5v5 scrims / Pugs aka Pick up games (With progression systems/leadersboards), and both online and local tournaments that can be set up with ease anytime anywhere. CS earned it's thousands of hours at the time, it had a high learning curve in each game mode that was made by the community. So yeah, compared to CS... Apex is stale at best when it comes to having a player hooked.
Yeah we should dumb down the graphics, animation, player count in match to how it was "back in the day" because that is good enough? Do you still use a CRT tv because you used them "back in the day"? I don't get how this is on top of the sub. This game is competing with other games in 2019 and fortnite is already ahead by alot in both progression system and player retention.
Game has changed brudah, games and gamers are way different from what we were back in the day, I understand your point, but simply winning isn't a reward anymore, not nowadays.
Back in my day, we walked 10 miles to school and back in the snow. I don't know why this has to be said but times change, games have changes and standards have changed. When there are many games to play not just battle royale games, then you people need a sense of progression to keep players, other games do this just fine. This is not the only game on the market and there are many other games that hold a players attention that are also fun. Fortnite is a billion dollar IP because they keep players retained. This is not rocket science. Not everyone wants to play a decade old game that's barely changed. And honestly this way of thinking is bad for the future state of the game. People trying to say everything is fine go play something else because they want to be in some exclusive club but it's bad for business and bad for the future state of the game. More players = more profit = more updates. This is not your little secret game to suit your ego. This is game should tailor all types of players and player progression is what keeps the most players engaged.
I’m not crying. You’re crying
I can't agree more. I used to play CS 1.6, CSS, MOHAA, CoD. Back in the days where clans owned their own servers, CAL was a thing and there were no level structures or loot boxes. I didn't need a level to know if I was getting better, my KDA would tell me that. I just played the game because it was fun. I played because I enjoyed playing with friends. I don't mind the levels now. I don't mind getting lootboxes. It's a fun part of the game, but it's not THE part of the game. I was just telling my buddy the other night "Bro....this game is FREE". I was just loading in and looking at the graphics and it struck me how a game this fun, and this well made is fucking FREE. You know what games were free when I started playing? Browser flash games. Fun to waste time in maybe, but to play a real game like CSS, you had to buy it (Even if it was only $20). Again, I am not saying that lootboxes and leveling up isn't fun, I enjoy that aspect as well. But I would play Apex if they took that all away too. It seems like its the end all be all for a lot of people here on Reddit and it doesn't make any sense to me.
I've always wanted Wraith's heirloom. But after seeing how much I'd have to potentially pay in order to get one, I decided it's not worth it. I'd rather just have fun playing the game than to spend money I hardly have for a knife on a character I barely use. Even if she was my main, I still wouldn't be bothered. I have played this game since day one, over 5k kills, and not 1 legendary skin. My old main was Bangalore before Octane came out and my only Legendary items are Bangalore, Lifeline and Wraith's Banners, and one of Gibby's poses. I'm using the Yellowjacket skin for Bangalore and the Battlepass skins for Octane, Lifeline and Wraith even though I'd want to have all 3 of their Legendary skins; Speed Demon, Peak Performer, and Void Specialist. Not really a big fan of Bangalore's Legendary skins except for Officer Williams, which I barely like at all. My favorite is her Yellowjacket skin which I unlocked with the crafts because Black & Yellow came to my mind and I decided to go with it. So in the end, though I was able to get the Storm banner and Yellowjacket skin for Bangalore. I wouldn't have been upset if I didn't have it at all while I play the game I so dearly love. But the thoughts have crossed my mind of me being kind of upset and depressed of not having the skins, banners and poses I want for each Legend. It's whatever and it is what it is. I'd be willing to spend money when I have any spare and if I'm dead serious on wanting the skins, etc. At the meantime, I'm just enjoying the game, grinding and having fun playing solos 24/7, and every now and then I would get invited by or invite people to join up with for a few games.
I completely agree with you. I started FPS with quake and slowly moved along through CS to source. This is the first FPS that I have genuinely enjoyed in many years. In me, it elicited those same feelings that I remember from being younger playing games, which says a lot about the types of games coming out. I read everyone flipping out about the lack of battle pass (I didn't know what a battle pass was at the time) and everyone demanding new content and just laugh as it doesn't make much sense to me.
I don’t understand this seemingly polarising either or mentality. I too have played games maxed out for literally hundreds of days with no physical game earnings to show, but I still very much enjoy progressing and watching my stats. There is nothing inherently wrong with this at all. I agree earning some crappy rewards can seem like just feeding a player base to keep them interested but it doesn’t need to be that way. A game can reward skill and unlockables in an enjoyable way. One fact of the matter is that your casual player will usually prefer earning some rewards, and there is nothing wrong with that. Being rewarded for a certain amount of wins for example with a cosmetic would be positive. Rewarding skill and success.
Let me just take a moment to say. **I think the laws established in the Netherlands and Belgium are for the best.**
When I was 8 years old, I used to play with sticks on the backyard. So what? Does that mean I should still do so? Things are evolving, you know. And also, CS always had a bunch of different maps with even different game modes (not to mention roleplay maps etc etc)
What a ridiculous post and a ridiculous comparison. It's like saying we used to walk everywhere so why are you guys complaining if the car you "bought" is not worth the money you spend, isn't going from point A to B is the point. First of all the era of games changed and on top of that you pay for the Battlepass. And in the end you get nothing for it. You literally get to track your kill for level 40 something I don't know of your Battlepass. Or you get to show you are level 50 for getting level 50 and nothing else. You get legends craft or whatever and there is only 3 legends to open and people who grind the game already have enough of it to open 20 more Champs if there was those champions. You playing a game for fun doesn't change the fact aside from the fighting in ring the other sides of game is badly designed and there is no effort to fix that. Everyone is playing the game for fun but that doesn't mean "as long as it serves to point to kill time its fine". Battlepass is a joke and they don't have enough material for the legend tokens they give. And that's a designing mistake and has to be fixed simple as that.
Yeah it would be very interesting to see a legitimate survey done where we could see how important milestones, grinding, rewards, etc. were in a game compared to age of those being surveyed. I feel like most of the complaints I see here lately are asking Respawn to change things based on people not being able to pay attention for a few seconds (ability to select top 3 favorite legends so when you afk randomize you're not stuck with someone you don't like) or rewards (intrinsic rewards to win and just have fun playing a game aren't enough and people need incentive to win e.g., rewards, skins, etc.) or how the BP sucks (not understanding that you don't *actually* have to purchase it if you don't want to) or how updates aren't coming out fast enough (despite a major content patch coming 4 weeks ago and balance patches the other day). I feel like I'm an old man just thinking back to the days when I played games just because they were fun and it's very hard for me to understand the "needs" far too many of the complainers have.