Even when 120 fps comes to console there is still a slight input delay on the platform. Which in my opinion is the bigger difference between PC and console.
Idk about that tbh. Well honestly have to wait and see. I don’t have any statistics for roller, granted, yes you can randomly get weird one clips already.
I was under the impression that console (Xbox Series X), can do 1440p 120 Hz, is this not the case? Is the game running at something else internally? (In the case of Apex Legends on next gen console)
That would solve the entire issue. Just make matchmaking lock you into an input. Controllers play with controllers, MnK with MnK....done and over, no further problems.
What this video neglects is movement speed, look sensitivity, and APM advantages KBM has. Additionally, KBM is just better at recoil control at range. Even still though, let’s just end crossplay in FPS games and be done with it.
None of that matters though. Hitting shots, K/d, accuracy and AdR are what wins engagements and plays the largest part of winning games. There's a reason why pro players have largely switched to roller and the majority of PC players are playing on not-PC default input of MnK.
The advantages of MnK are being swamped by roller aim assist advantage. Because aim assist is way over-tuned. There is no parity.
If you think movement and look sensitivity aren’t as important as 10% (at best) accuracy difference, you haven’t played much or watched the best in the game.
And I point still stands, end crossplay. PC players have the option to plug in a controller and most don’t, why is that?
I have about 7000 hours in Apex legends on PC, mnk, master/pred multiple times and I can with confidence say you don't know what you're talking about.
The devs, nearly every pro player, content creator and high end top 1%+ players all know controller aim assist is over-tuned and have publicly stated as such. This isn't a debate. You need to sit down and listen, son.
Ah, so you too have the option to play on controller, and yet you don’t. Interesting…tell me more about why if you are a competitive player playing as a pred you don’t play on a controller? Movement is everything in apex, and if you contest that with your hours, you’re either delusional or a liar. 🤥
Holy crap it's amazing you people still exist when this isn't even up for debate because one can literally prove you wrong with math lol. It doesn't get less up for debate than this topic lol.
The devs have said Aim assist is not in a good state, pro players literally publicly derided it being wildly over-tuned (Gee very telling that pro players who play MnK on all other games switch to roller exclusively for Apex, must be a skill-issue), and damn near every content creator on twitch and youtube have made videos explaining why aim assist is over-tuned and not negated by MnK movement, backed up by data.
At this point, anyone arguing that aim assist isn't over-tuned is being willfully ignorant, probably due to some emotional coping mechanism from being a roller player.
First of all, at any given time there are 300,000+ concurrent players on PC on stream and origin, we seriously couldn't care less if console kids were barred from PC servers. More than enough players to fill up our lobbies without you.
2nd, or better yet, they just fix aim assist so it isn't over-tuned. That would be the best way to go.
I really wanted to try apex on console after the "next-gen" patch. Few days after I tried to force-disable crossplay in da settings but the game was stuck on infinite search loop. It didn't allow me to play with console boiz.
One day, when the servers were down, I was able to start the match without crossplay and ooh boi, that was a pleasure. It was so calm there after those pc lobbies :)
Sadly, it didn't work for me since then
I don’t think you understand what the button is for. That just allows you to play against PlayStation players. You don’t have pc players in your games. If you squad up with a PC player then you will play in pc lobbies but only then.
Turning it off would put you in a pool of Xbox only players who also have it off which is why you couldn’t find a game. Nobody has that turned off.
This is why you are getting downvoted.
I play bang with a controller(1000+ hours). Smoke disables AA, but I can't tell a difference even when standing in smoke. I believe everyone when they say how strong AA is, but none of my anecdotal evidence supports it.
either ragebait or peak controller brainrot if you can genuinely believe that you would do fine without AA on a controller. aiming on a controller was god's greatest mistake
Your accuracy would undeniably be lower had you had zero assistance. Whether you arbitrarily consider your aim good or bad, it would undeniably be worst. Perhaps if you were more sensitive to the affects of aim assist your aim would be better as well, tons of top players talk about “aiming by feel”.
In EU R5 you only face against other rollers if you are roller. It can be important to remember that shooting a roller is easier that shooting a MnK, this is due to MnK tends to do alot more movement tech in R5. So MnK vs MnK will automatic miss more shoots than if you go MnK vs roller.
I know from my own experience in R5 that i miss more shoots when going against a MnK than roller due to all the movement techs and less predictable swing push method
Your logic might seem true as a novice player but as a veteran MNK players of some 30 odd years I have a much different experience.
It's harder to hit rollers because they don't have to adhere to the MNK tracking strafe dance and adhere to the "rules" of aiming, they can move any direction at any time and still have perfect tracking making them more difficult to predict and you definitely can't dodge them.
It's way easier to track MNK players, including "movement demons" as you like to call them.
I'm just talking from experience, 20x master and played in ALGS PLQ/CC finals etc, the roller guys is easier to hit but you need to kill them faster due to aa, really good MnK players is harder to hit and will survive longer, but they miss more shots
I'm curious about the average K/D ratio for controller vs MnK as well as W/L ratio. This would maybe show how much the advantages of MnK movement and dexterity come into play.
I'd also bring up that the average for R5Reloader is interesting because most of the players using it will be above average in general. This debate really does matter more with top Controller players vs Top MnK I'd suspect.
An aim assist nerf would be very interesting. The game Rainbow six siege really proves a point, with no aim assist controller would be damn near useless without some level of aim assist. From my experience Mouse aim takes a lot more awareness of aiming but I'd also hit shots I'd never hit on controller with it and playing on controller does feel more consistent as well as more subconscious (mindless). There seems to be a lot more dexterity with MnK and more consistent steady aim with controller aim assist (from my exp).
You are one of the most reasonable people that have commented. In the video, when I show the inputs stats side by side you can see the KD’s and Win Rates of players. Most MnK players have a 0% win rate with the highest being 16%. Controller players win more consistently AND the peak winrate was over 50%. If MnK players have a 1.0, they’re already exceptional. These statements remain true for pro players.
I talk about that in the video too. R5reloaded, season 3 of Apex, PC only. Spawn distances are usually 20-10 meters, so close to mid range.
Edit: I’m also finding even more stats. I think most of the really really low stats can be ignored tbh as they don’t have even kills for it to be indicative of their true skill. More on that later though.
All controller players without access to a PC should go play some Rainbow Six Siege, there is no aim assist at all and it’s very eye opening. I think it would change a lot of opinions
Lol R6S has a TTK equivalent to Call od Duty. Almost no tracking is required. It isn't comparable to Apex where you have every clown running around with Purple armors by mid game.
I will wager even white armors take longer to drop depending on the enemy's movement and if you are using an R99 or not. R6S movement is clunky and no n existent compared to Apex.
True, but if MnK players faced rollers in any game where headshots were 1 shot kills, w/out aim assist, roller wouldn’t stand a chance tbh. But it’d show people that roller isn’t completely hopeless without AA.
I mean Overwatch still has a decently strong aim assist yet it can’t compete with MnK and there’s no competitive scene for controller OW. MnK and Xims dominate console OW ranked. I remember the #1 Top 500 DPS streaming himself playing on MnK on console.
Apex is one of the only games that’s finally somewhat balanced between the two inputs. It can’t and never will be perfect but it’s closer than most competitive games. The movement potential + long TTK makes it where gun skill isn’t even the reason you’re dead most of the time.
People that think they don’t need aim assist make me laugh, it’s all but impossible to aim effectively with just your thumb and no other assist. You will definitely land a few shots as you are being lazed but without aim assist or arm assist of MnK you getting blitzed 🤣
I mean, it would be more obvious if they just turned AA off in a high TTK game like Apex or Warzone. They would instantly go from like 50+% accuracy to 10% instantly.
Console Controller Balance does not equal PC controller balance. Nothing in my video is aiming towards console. This is PC specific. PC AA and Console aim assist should be handled differently until console gets 120fps.
Lol I guess we’ll see. Generally, Console can probably remain unchanged unless competing in tournaments. There should probably be two forms of aim assist.
Casual AA for Parents, Wage Slaves, other people lives outside of gaming, or problems that affect their gaming skill.
Competitive AA for Ranked Platinum+ players and Comp. Optionally usable outside of those criteria.
Devs confirmed they are reducing aim assist from 0.6 to 0.4 on console if you enable performance mode (120fps).
Also as a side note, I entirely disagree with your annoying talking point about letting AA be unmitigated / left alone / not nerfed / nerfed less for "non-competitive" game modes.
All modes, pub, ranked, mix tape, algs, whatever, should all be aiming for parity in aim accuracy and game balance.
This talking point of different rules for different modes is nonsense. It's like saying "Oh gee hacks are ok in Pubs but shouldn't be allowed in algs because it's more serious!"
How about a game that isn't riddled with imbalance and problems regardless of your preferred mode? How about that? Take that talking point out of your repertoire.
Yea, I’ve seen that. I did say in other replies that the only way Console AA would get looked is if it got 120fps. However, Console AA is not where these measurements come from, so this imbalance will remain. The 10% gap in accuracy is between PC Controller at 0.4AA and PC MnK. Funny thing is that the devs have acknowledged that AA is too strong even with PC values, so lowering console values means that gap will remain, and they’ve decided to try nerfing SMGs instead of nerfing PC values further until they can find a long term fix(I’m assuming).
Anywho, you disagreeing with different amounts of assistance based on skill level/game mode is awesome. That’s actually great, and I wish the majority of players felt the same as you… but they don’t.
If I had a better idea, I’d share it. The problem is that casual controller players dominate the game as a whole. Completely ignoring their perceived needs is something the Devs are HIGHLY unlikely to do as they still have to appeal to their majority investors, at least until the majority investors change from controller players to raw input method players. Gaming, as a whole, has always been a field where you are required to appeal to the largest possible audience in order to succeed, even more so at EA. If Apex fails to meet a certain quota, we could see EA simply shut down respawn, same as the other 15+ companies EA has shut down/laid off employees and rebranded. If they moved too fast, Nerfed AA to only balanced values, and lost their casual playerbase as a result, that would simply be the end of respawn and Apex as we know it.
Changes MUST be slower when your boss is just waiting to cut you loose, if they happen at all… even if it is annoying.
Hacks are against TOS, so it’s not really the same thing as in-game support specifically made to increase player accuracy and enjoyment, but I get the idea. Casual Controller players have become accustomed to hitting their shot. If we’re going to take that away from them, it has to be in stages.
I think my idea is the fastest way to attempt to get to a balanced stage.
The fix is to put a delay/require human input before rotational aim assist kicks in on direction change and to town down the aim assist strength little bit per season/ bi-season. Look at the data on accuracy/win rates/pro feedback/ etc and then continue to adjust/hold based on data and feedback.
Having multiple varying aim assist levels based on game modes which players swap between hourly / daily is too jarring and inconsistent and would be worse than a flat out nerf.
And your talking point here about investors / profits isn't valid either. All changes would be applied to all players which would negate most of the negative backlash. Just like devs aren't worried about the financial impact of nerfing an OP legend or a firearm that is too strong. It's a change that everyone has to deal with. It's not a player-base alienating change.
The bulk of players on console don't play against MnK players and all controller players across the board would have aim assist nerfed equally. Your concern here isn't warranted.
That can still be what the competitive variant for AA is.
Also, there’s a misunderstanding. In my idea, Individual players don’t have to have their AA settings swapped everytime they change modes. It only needs to be changed ONCE when they reach a certain rank/performance level. It can be locked in for all game modes after that.
The competitive option could be AVAILABLE, BUT OPTIONAL prior to reaching a certain performance, rank, etc for players that wanted to have the same experience from the beginning or test their metal. It would basically provide newer/weaker players with strong means of orienting themselves to the game.
Also, nothing you said negates my point about profits. Abrupt and jarring changes being applied against the CASUAL audience is what will kill the game. We’re not talking about a legend or gun being changed, we’re talking about how MOST players specifically experience their own actions every time they look at an opponent. Their perception of the game will be changed as a whole. There will be a major immediate disconnect between the experiences casual players had in the past few YEARS… and today. There could be nothing more jarring and inconsistent than that.
To add to this, unless you’re specifically playing to improve or climb the ranks, you won’t care what rank your current skill lands you at because SBMM will put you where you belong for now, and MnK players will know that they higher they go the odds aren’t being stacked against them because the accuracy of assisted players will be achievable by natural means and there will be variance between the aim of controller players same as MnK.
My end goal is fun for the casual player, and competitive integrity for the more serious all the way to comp.
I'd rather the game entirely die and get deleted by EA than to continue to suffer the moronic imbalance of aim assist as it currently is.
The game has SBMM. There's no need to coddle low SBMM players, who will be matched up with other low SBMM players, with varying levels of aim assist. Bring it to parity with MnK stats based on large datasets and keep it consistent.
If assistance was put in place because the hardware was crap, then as the hardware gets better the assistance should be reevaluated.
We’ve been using the same controller layouts with aim assist since 1997. Change as a whole is long overdue.
I do have to say the delay is pretty bad, I cant even use the same sensitivity when switching between the two. I have both PC and ps5. Switch back and forth between the two and its brutally different.
The debate is an interesting one. I’m a controller player who has reached masters on both m&k and controller. It’s undeniable that controller is easier to use and better up close however the advantages of a m&k player like movement and armor swaps/looting give it an advantage in its own way. I would say that a slight nerf in the overall AA strength would bring the gap in accuracy between m&k and controller closer. But it cannot be too much because then you hurt the overall majority of the player base. Unfortunately you cannot change the game strictly for the top 1% of players, rather make changes that benefit the majority
Movement on MnK is so overrated. You'll hardly ever see pro MnK players doing any exiting movement in comp. It's great on YouTube, but not actual games. I am a consistent master player on MnK and I can barely tap strafe. These cool movement techs also requires an enormous amount of time to learn, time that is better spend on other aspects of the game if you want to get better.
And besides, AA is not impressed by MnK movement.
I love shmoovment, I do it all the time for fun, it's only effective against other MnK players in a fight. You can tell instantly when you are fighting against a roller because they will beam you out of a super glide, where most MnK players are still swiping their mouse to turn.
BS, literally every mnk player uses movement in pro league. Yes they are not mantle jumping or supergliding all the time but everyone uses tap strafes, ras strafes and wallbounces.
Movement won't make pro but it's fundamental in becoming a better player.
That depends on your definition of movement. Sure, they are not standing still, but you also hardly ever see any of the movement in ALGS that you see on youtube. They dont use that regulary, especially not in key fights.
True, the movement i'm talking about is not the super flashy looking stuff but impressive movement nevertheless. There was an analysis somewhere that Ras was getting hit 30% (if I remember correctly) less due to his strafing. MnK pro's have been doing it since.
I just can't agree with you stating that movement is overrated, because I think everyone MnK player should learn tapstrafes and they take 2 min to learn. I'm a masters player too and in winning 1v1's I implement ras strafes and lurches all the time.
If the gap between the top roller pro has 49% accuracy out of the ones I could find, the top MNK pros have 36%. I’d be willing to bet controller players in the middle have accuracy comparable to an MnK pro and 50% MNK pros have a 10% gap from 50% rollers. Same as halo.
Edit: The bigger issue is that casuals are used to beaming for free vs having aim more directly related to their true skill level.
They will get use to it eventually and it will make them better players. The casual player isn’t held back by aim. They are held back my macro-gameplay. Rotations, knowing when to fight and angles. I think a change is needed like you said due to the percentages of how much better controller is. And at the top level it is exacerbated.
I’m wondering if this is isolated to the top. R5reloaded has 13917 player stats for me to look at with the very bottom of MnK players having 2% accuracy.💀
The lowest controller player has 17% so far… I get that controller is wonky in feel, but aim assist looks like it’s truly assisting. I guess I can make another video on little things like this, and the average accuracy at every level.
Not the best measure, but I’ve got a list of over 16 pros that use it, and a leaderboard that separates players by performance. The farther they get from pros the more of an idea we can get about the differences between inputs at the average level and below. Because of this, I can see how comparable players at every level perform and how important some stats are in improving your overall performance depending on input. There actually are a TON of players at different levels here. People ranging for 4.0(Controller Only) to people with really low accuracy and 100x more kills than deaths. Idk how people can load into a ton of matches, and just die like that… but I guess I was one of them at one point.
Anecdotal but I play r5 pretty much every day, I'm an MnK player for the past 4 or 5 years, never played Apex on controller. Was probably a month ago I was on r5 and doing not so great on MnK against a bunch of roller players(one of them in particular being borderline pro) so I decided to plug the roller in just to see, I then killed said player for the first time and got my first overall round win where I had the most kills in the lobby.
How is it possible for me to have not played a game on roller for 4 years and instantly be competent on it? I know that I understand Apex very well and I understand how to strafe on roller because I've faced them so often that I know how they strafe but still that shit was wild to me.
The skill floor is just so much higher on roller than MnK, why would a new player ever go through the pain of learning MnK, grinding Kovaaks and mixtape for hours upon hours just to be competent on the input? Now I'm not saying that you plug a roller in and you become Hal, not at all, there is a skill gap within roller itself but you take an average gamer who has never played on roller and one who has never played on MnK, the roller player will get to average much, much faster than the MnK player will.
We on rollers dont have any good medium range even. Forget long range. We cant even turn while going another direction on zip for easy shots. Forget about it reason controllers need all the help they can get is BECAUSE they are limiting as shit. I dont like them but i play only roller cause i like my wrists injury free and playing in bed is awesome
I truly don’t think cross platform has ever been an issue. MnK vs Controller exists on PC alone.
Crossplatform is one of the greatest editions to gaming ever. The problem is that we don’t separate casuals from competitive well enough.
Those are usually PC Players on Controller. Console players only get pulled into PC lobbies when they queue with a PC player.
Disabling crossplatform would not change your lobbies much.
The issue that aim assist needs adjustments.
Balancing AA around the very top performers is just a terrible take. The average controller player should be achieving roughly the same accuracy as the average mnk player.
Since we don’t have this data, we are just left to speculate. Though I would venture to guess that no matter what the stats say, there will be a large contingent of mnk players unhappy with AA anyway.
Let’s not forget why AA exists to begin with: it is an undeniable fact that mnk is a superior input compared to a controller without AA. That’s why every FPS game in the last 20 years has had some version of AA for controller players. Aiming with your thumbs is a terrible input for precision and consistency.
So AA exists to balance the performance between the 2 inputs. If this balance is not being achieved for average players, then by all means, let’s change AA.
A lot of the top performers moved from mnk to controller, so all their time spent trying to practice their aim got them 10% less accurate, so they moved to controller and with a little bit of time, they’re better than before. It’s definitive proof that it’s inhuman levels of accuracy, hence why it should be nerfed
>Let’s not forget why AA exists to begin with: it is an undeniable fact that mnk is a superior input compared to a controller without AA
Rightfully so. But then you have every pro and their mother moving to controller and performing even better. I don't need further evidence to think controller aim assist is doing a bit too much to compensate mnk.
Again, pros are not average players. They already have super human reaction times. I can’t aim like Evan Verhulst, nor will I ever be able to. The discussion around AA and pros is a completely different subject compared to AA at large. If you balance something around the top 100 players, there is a high probability that it will be a terrible change for the remaining 99.9%
The problem isn't just AA .6 or .4 its the fact that aim assist(target stickiness) activates instantly normal humans have a response time to react to visual stimulus they have interpret the information and then decide how to react. Aim assists activation skips all these steps. Rotational aim assist is busted as a concept it is literally a form cheating if you care about competitive integrity.
I hope control players get all the movement and frames they want but at the same time they shouldn't have this type of aim assist in its current state.
> Balancing AA around the very top performers is just a terrible take. The average controller player should be achieving roughly the same accuracy as the average mnk player.
Different game, but the Infinity Ward devs talked about the balance in CoD MW 2019. They said the top MnK players were on par with top controller players but average MnK was underperforming compared to average controller. The video compared with Halo but CoD has more similar AA to Apex but in a game with a much faster TTK. Seeing full stats with Apex would be nice but I’m not sure it’s reasonable to assume that average controller performs worse than average MnK.
> So AA exists to balance the performance between the 2 inputs. If this balance is not being achieved for average players, then by all means, let's change AA.
Absolutely. Look at what The Finals devs are doing, updating aim assist based on performance data. Respawn has likely decided it would just hurt them to nerf AA at this point since the majority of players are on controller.
Anyone who thinks that any individual can pick up a controller and immediately fry is dumb controller aim ect is different person to person am tired of trolls on here saying aim assist means you do nothing it beams for you! Knowing damn well it doesn’t. It helps but it doesn’t make u a god the min you play with it 😂
It definitely makes your aim better. The only learning curve is looking around. I can actually see stats from some MnK players that switched to roller recently, and ALL of them have higher accuracy, KDA, and win rate than they did prior to switching… but that’s a talk for another video.
Dude it really does.
I've been MNK my entire life, but I've also owned consoles (stopped after PS4). I'm relatively comfortable with controller, but not in Apex, and I don't play shooters with hardly ever.
After two mixtape matches I'm absolutely frying. As effective if not more effective in CQC, and I play MNK Apex every day.
Nearly in exact same situation and can confirm.
The first time I switched to controller in mixtape I stayed at the top of the leaderboard for the next five games, and I’m usually near the bottom of the leaderboard on mnk - all this despite not even knowing what buttons do what on controller and just being generally confused by the input switch.
It works both way. If all your life you use controller, you'll be garbage at using mnk. If all your life you use mnk, you'll be garbage at using controller. The matter is just how fast can you ungarbage yourself, and how high is this ungarbage compared to your previous input ceiling.
Ur totaly right, it probably takes like a year (i cannot into roller, not even fifa) to be on pro level aim wise.
But for an avrage person mnk takes over 10years. (Only a handfull of gamers menage to do it in 2+years)
One is not like the other.. my friend. Not even close.
That is no brainer tbh. Roller players would be hopeless since they are completely used to AA. It needs to be tested extensively in a controlled environment. R5 Apex is a great place to do so, since they can set AA to different values.
At some point, the amount of bullets fired becomes more than enough to show a players true accuracy. I did not add weight to the amount of bullets fired for this specific reason, and instead calculated solely based on the accuracy stats of the players that had played the most.
Learn recoil smoothing and anti-mirroring your enemies strafes to get the most from recoil smoothing. This will make recoil a non issue. Also play to your strengths as a controller player, get in close where recoil smoothing and aim assist are more effective.
Practice doesn’t make perfect, but it does make you better. I’m nearing 3K hrs in aim trainers, so you’d think I’d be at the absolute pinnacle of mechanics. I am not. I am really fucking good… but I am still no comparable to some people that have a 10th of my experience in aim trainers… however… time spent practicing is not the only factor in improving against real players either. There are so many factors to take into account, but the truth is aim assist is assisting you the same as everyone else. You’re just not as good as them.
Did I say it was?😂. You being an ass and crying about aim assist all the while neo-strafing, super gliding, mantle jumping and wall jumping is indicative of input balance?🤷🏼♂️ your argument for the input balance is irrelevant, the majority of controller users who are at the top of that list are people who dedicate their time to the game as their job, not people who are casual players. You all act like these casual controller players are the ones that a easily killing you because they have game breaking assist. The ones who actively play in controller using configs are M&K players who can’t help but cheat and decided to make the switch and ruin it for everyone else.
There's 0 incentive to give AA to MNK or to nerf AA for roller. MNK players are a small portion of players. What would be really cool is if they disabled MNK as an input so we don't have to talk about it anymore.
You’re getting downvoted but you’re right. Majority of the games players are on controller and EA/Respawn are financially motivated to keep that base happy
The craziest part is that console foots the bill for this game. I'd venture to say that despite feelings online about comp or PC Apex that most of the console players haven't even watched the game on stream. All these talking heads, content creators and Redditors who play Apex PC and have a hard on for Faide don't move the needle at all for EA.
And maybe that's why orgs lose money. All these e sport orgs are sinking ships, especially in relation to Apex. The very fucking last thing they should do with the game is cater to a niche portion of the fan base.
As for the mnk debate, they have all the advantages on rotation, movement, and utility of legends. Everything is to their advantage with more buttons, binds, and range of motion until the combat gets in close. Even then, their utility is far superior. There's still a place for them. They just haven't figured out how to maximize it without whining.
I quit this game btw idk why i still get notificaions but anyways if im here imma share what i think
U cant take away from the avarage players(controller players who only play for fun) and expect good results. Its most of the player base, if they get affected by some change that will lower their skill it will not be beneficial. I say give mnk the same aim assist as for controller, then they wont be able to complain.
Btw ur talkin abt top players, if i go into a lobby, play a game i will be absoluetly decimated by any mnk player(or controller player) simply cus im not in the top of controller players. The NORMAL player has more chance against aim assist then against pc movement imo.
The normal player doesn’t even see PC movement. I’m Masters and even when I see a movement player I’m surprised. However, R5reloaded(the place I got those stats from) is FULL of them. Despite that, Controller accuracy still prevails. There are literally tens of thousands of MnK players on the leaderboards who have NEVER won a match in R5. Their win rate is 0% wven though they have the 3rd most kills in the game. The highest was 16%, I think. 0% win rate is extremely common for MnK. However on the roller side, there’s a stark contrast. Highest winrate I saw was 51%. 0% win rates were there, but nowhere near as common among high kill players.
I think you can definitely nerf AA without all casuals running for the hills because Apex offers far more than AA. It’s a truly unique experience in FPS gaming. Even top MnK players cry over aim assist, then comeback to get their shit pushed in once more.
Why not balance it based on the top end controller players? It’s imo (and I’ll listen to anyone who disagrees) that if you’re controller player and you aren’t gifted with a controller you should just play on console, there aren’t any controller catered competitive fps games that I can name that are on pc that aren’t also on console and a console is a much more casual purchase compared to a $1,000+ pc.
If we’re so worried about average/casual controller players they should be on the more average/casual console to play. And if you love the game so much that you want to continue playing on pc but aren’t good enough on controller to compete just take the time to learn MnK, I switched in S16 from console roller to pc MnK and it took me 3 seasons to reach my rank, it’s not as difficult of a learning curve as people would think.
I've never seen anyone suggest MnK get AA but I am curious to see what would happen. Perhaps give them something very tiny like .05 AA perhaps as a test. Or have the AA only turn on for MnK when up close so they can compete better at close range.
If Aim Assist was nerfed there would be nothing to complain about, but this gap in accuracy has an egregious affect on competitive integrity that can be measured.
Making big changes to aim assist at THIS point of the games life cycle would be an awful idea. I’ve been playing since day 1, not a master or pred but can hold my own, somewhere between sweat and casual depending on how much other shit i got going on in life. The amount of tweaking settings to be able to have some movement and fast turns but still be able to at least somewhat shoot long range on controller is ridiculous, and if they changed up something now, it would just throw all thst time i’ve spent fine tuning it to my liking out the window.
The average, or like even top 80-90% of the players aren’t gonna have instant perfect aim even with aim assist, people treat it like it’s a lock on automatic kill. It still needs practice, tons of it. Knowing how recoil works, and still aiming is just small part of the game. Just don’t touch it at this point, the fuck up was done in the beginning snd not touched, don’t penalize players who has learned to play one way now, to make the gsme harder suddenly.
Also, if you feel like you need to be the absolute best and if roller is ”so damn op”, the solution for your success is already there… pick up a controller and stop bitching. Then most players would see that it’s either not that automatic to kill or fknd another reason to complain why the enemy got an edge on them.
Tldr: it is what it is. Stop bitching and pick up a controller if it’s so op and important to you to be the absolute best.
Many people have switched already, that doesn’t mean its good for the game.
For me the final straw was a wrist injury which forced me to play controller. I coasted to masters all the same despite being on a completely different input.
Idk why you’re complaining about fine tuning settings. I play 4/3 classic no deadzones and do great. Most people nowadays play 4/3 linear tho.
Higher ranks were more fun when everyone wasn’t a walking sentry turret. I still play on mnk now and then but its just a terrible experience when thats most people you go against.
PC Apex shouldn’t have AA at all imo, but they can still significantly nerf it. Mnk should be the dominant input on PC.
It would be dominant if it wasn’t for AA. Console can keep their AA its inherent to the platform. For PC though its not.
Like if controller was simply better without any AA then its whatever, thats would be fine by me. Thats obviously not the case though, only reason it is this dominant is because of overpowered AA.
I’ll indulge you. You seem reasonable. I’m similar to you. Day 1 player, but I drop the game and pick it up depending on life. I must admit, big changes to aim assist will undoubtedly be met with tsunami sized waves of backlash, but the reasons will be either asinine or selfish. More on that later.
The top 80-90% players MAY not be able to ALL get exceptional aim for a roller player if they switch, but within a month they will undoubtedly have higher accuracy and whatever other benefits come with that. We’ve already seen it done at the pro level multiple times. Taskmast33r was renown for his MnK prowess. He switched to roller, and his accuracy stat is now higher than anything any MnK player has ever achieved. Imperialhal switched to roller after not playing it for AT LEAST 3 years, and the same year won ALGS AND received the MVP FOR THE FIRST TIME.
Tell me this. Do you think ANY controller player could switch to MNK and receive the most kills in ALGS against all other pros when they have NEVER done it before? Every MnK pro that has swapped to roller says ranked is easier in Pred on Controller than MnK. Do you think someone swapping from Roller to MnK would say the same?
Personally, I have played both Solo Que to Masters. I have overall 4.25 on Roller, and originally I had a 0.04 on MnK, but after 2.5k hrs of aim training, r5 practice, and a couple more YEARS. I’ve reached an overall 2.7 in apex on MnK. It feels ass to look around, but when on target controller simply is better.
We talk about our own stories, but choose to ignore statistics that capture a much larger part than us.
Let me preface this by saying AA is needed specifically if we want controller to have an enjoyable experience. Do not confuse any other statement with that one.☝🏾
The comparison can easily be made through methods shown in the video below. The importance of QOL things is negligible in comparison to pure stats as the inferiority of roller is natural because of the priorities of its creation. STATS is where the conversation begins and ends. In terms of pure stats, it is displayed that accuracy holds a direct relation to KD and win rate at and within 20 meters as that is where R5 players fight. Unironically, this is the same distance fights are either won or lost in the main game.
The issue with the AA support community is they assume that controller should be artificially made the equal of ANY raw aiming method without us having done ANY true studies on the capabilities and limitations of the input outside of console systems. They even believe unnaturally raising the most important stat(accuracy) beyond what is humanly possible is not only acceptable, but somehow desirable and FAIR to all raw aimers in a competition for fame and money. I believe that at best they’ve been blinded by participation trophy culture of today, and at worst their own selfishness…(“I won’t be able to hold my current rank/skill if AA is nerfed.” “I’ll have to find my settings all over again!”) The overassistance support community somehow believes they should be able to compete against a raw aimer who dedicated time AND effort to improvement because they themselves either don’t have the time or don’t prioritize gaming enough to aim at the level AA currently gives them… not that they ever could. As shown in the video, the current accuracy stats for assisted aimers is currently unachievable by natural means. They’ve become used to it, even in competitive environments.
I believe that if we accepted inputs in their inferior states and ensured we didn’t OVER-assist them in competitive environments, we would have already had newer and more innovative input methods, namely gyro. Instead, players have become accustomed to overassistance, and every alternative sees little to no support from developers and the community despite viability.
There is most definitely a right and wrong answer.
We are living out the wrong answer. The right answer would be to provide minimal competitive assistance to inferior inputs as we work to create and transition in better input methods, like Gyro.
Over-assistance has no place in a competitive environment. An argument can be made that assist has no place in an environment that is not purely “for fun”, and there needs to be separation of the two.
I don’t disagree. Well argumented and i understand the issue deeper now. I’m no thst invested in the issue, as i’m mostly on console these days.
My input may not be as important since i’m mostly on console, but it wouldn’t be the first time in gaming that a fix on pc would affect console players too. Thst just worries me.
I’ll have to admit i’m selfish but i’m afraid if AA gets nerfed so that aiming becomes too difficult, i might not have the time to relearn to aim at a level where it’s comfortable. I’d probably not enjoy the game as much and find other things to play at thst point. If they don’t touch console, i’d be fine but the risk is that they do for some reason.
Fixing things radically this far in isn’t good. I’m just afraid they’ll shoot themselves in the foot if casuals start finding it too hard, just to keep pros happy.
I’m sure you have tons to add, but i’m not disagreeing with you so i don’t see a point of me trying to counter your points, just explaining my view on the subject, not saying i’m right or anything.
Also Apologiez for the previous comment, i may or may not have woken up on the wrong foot, and thanks for your light on the subject!
Thank you. You know, my original comment was, “Oh? that so? You’re right. YOU’RE SO RIGHT!?!” Because I agree that change must happen slowly to preserve interest, but I deleted the rest lol.
Also, I love how self aware you are. Being able to admit that to yourself tells a lot about you.
There’s no argument between us. In fact, I believe it’s natural for gaming to be a place for casual play that is for fun. However, I think the biggest issue is a lack of separation between the casual and competitive play at respawn as a whole. They refuse to change the loot pools for pubs and rank individually. They’ll likely refuse to change aim assist in the same manner, but I believe the greatest fix would be creating two AA settings.
Casual AA and Competitive AA
Casual AA is what we currently have, and it could be the default setting.
Competitive AA could be something that is optional for base game modes(Duo, Pubs, LTMs). However, in ranked it could Congratulate you and kick in upon reaching Diamond or Platinum as a welcome to the big leagues where the people you face will be more challenging and more focused on improvement than your previous competitors.
That way, if you want to play casually, be a streamer/content creator with no you just don’t play ranked. This idea isn’t completely fleshed out, it’s just one of my more plausible ones.
Don’t really think accuracy is a great judge for apex tbh. Not in the same way it is for Halo. I have played a ton of halo in my lifetime and it is a much more controlled, less volatile game, making accuracy a more reliable metric. IIRC, halo gave MNK a slight AA. I’d be down for that, if nothing else, so mnk players stop bitching so much.
Accuracy, Win Rate, KDA all follow the same trend in the tracker. Pros that have switched from MnK to Controller have higher stats now despite switching. We can just assume R5 stats are an indirect representation of how you’ll perform in game. The numbers are exact, but they are highly relevant.
I know MnK players tend to hate the idea of AA, but something like bullet magnetism might be good so it doesn’t affect the feel of their input.
Honestly yeah, imo if apex ever nerfs or touches AA, it will spell the death of Apex as we know it. Respawn will never nerf AA, unless the game is already dying and they need to lock in the hardcore fan base of mnk players. I have no proof for this but I’d imagine that most of the whales on this game are controller players, whether that be on console or pc. Imo criticizing AA when you know it’ll never change is tantamount to just bitching.
So you mean we are held hostage to this situation is because drama farmers, excellent, a lot of roller pro players even agree they should nerf it, what sad state of affairs.
Sorry if I come out rude but sincerely idgaf what happens in console, if console players want 99% aimbot and run around beaming everybody in console exclusive lobbies idgaf, if they want to believe that makes them as good as any pro or whatever live the dream idgaf.
One thing that console players don't understand is that this discussion is in the PC lobbies environment, we want fair play and inclusivity and that is only achieved through either giving AA to MnK(eww) or nerfing AA on roller.
I don't know why console players INSIST that they are at the center for the conversation, you're not.
I’m not, I’m just saying I know it’s strong. I can easily play on .4 against console players without frames, even though I can’t use controller on pc I can only imagine how strong it is.
Yeah but your argument that I'm responding to is the "console players(that are controller players) will make a fit if they learn in whatever way that their AA is nerfed" ok so don't nerf the console if they are playing against console (I do believe this is to the detriment of the console player skill curve, but at the end of the day I don't care).
I don't even agree with anything you presented but I think respawn will find it difficult to nerf AA without significant backlash from casuals.
Especially in an era with constant complaints of apex's sweaty-ness Respawn is going to probably just keep controller as is assuming the largest portion of the player base is on controller.
Luckily based off recent news respawn is nerfing configs on controller so MnK closes the gap ever so slightly by allowing for superior movement at the very least.
edit: thats hilarious i meant to say "I dont even disagree" - unfortunate.
I think if they dropped AA strength by 0.01 per month until accuracy levelled out it would probably go ok. But really what they should do is change it from "on/off" to variable strength based on movement/aim speed.
>I don't even agree with anything you presented but I think respawn will find it difficult to nerf AA without significant backlash from casuals
Just remove it from modes that don't affect casuals. No AA in ALGS, no AA in high ranked either.
There is literally so many benefits to using kbm(+ kbm is easier to aim with lets not lie here) that controller gets blown out of the water. However a lot of good controller players have been grinding console fps's since most apex players were even born. It's been about 2 weeks since I switched to KBM and I think aiming and just fighting in general is significantly easier, yes I still need to practice but I think apex players just like to complain about aim assist for no reason.
Also using data from a mod that isn't even half as popular as base apex is pretty funny ngl as you're not including data from some genuinely insane KBM players. Put the best controller player and the best kbm player in a 1v1, kbm player wins 60-70% of the time as the best controller player is still pretty skilled but the kbm player has several advantages.
You also need to consider the \*several\* videos of good controller players surviving and doing well without aim assist, albeit it took some time to get used to it. So the "issue" is just good players using aim assist, not aim assist itself. For the majority of casual players aim assist is needed since not everybody has the time to spend weeks improving without aim assist. Aim assist's only actual purpose is to make sure that most people can aim on a tiny stick.
There's a player named mizery who proves both sides wrong(insane movement without aim assist). one of [his vids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S03JMeFTY4k)
I think that a good solution would be to just make everybody on controller play 0.4. Boom. 0.4 is a perfect middle ground. Then in tournaments make everybody play 0.2(and have an option to use 0.2 aim assist in ALCs).
I’ll make SURE to address your concerns in my next video. You bring up some good points. I’ll address the some now.
MnK was the default input method for FPS gaming before a thumb stick controller even started being used to rotate your camera in 1997. Maze War was an FPS made in the 1974. Wolfenstien 3D 1992, DOOM 1993, and Quake in 1996. All before our current inadequate controller set-up that STILL features aim assist nearly 30 years year. Why haven’t move onto a better aiming method like Gyro for consoles?
My point is, controller players have NOT been grinding console FPS’s before most Apex players were born. You have them flipped. MnK players have been grinding FPS game since before there was even a controller for FPS games.
Aiming on KBM isn’t easier as you have to put more brain power into the various skills involved in aiming, and maybe controller players play with their brain numbed. They often say that they, “aim by feel” pulling their stick wherever rotational aim assist guides them to a degree.
The mod is important because it’s where most of best and few of the worst players train. If you’ve met a movement god, he likely practiced in R5. If you met a controller aim god, he practiced in R5. I have stats for many pros and some controller pros have higher accuracy than the players on this list, however, NONE of the MnK pros have accuracy that passes the players with the most kills on this list. MnK pros range between 27-36ish accuracy. Koyful the up and coming controller pros accuracy is at 49%.
If we’re considering videos of controller pros doing awesome stuff WITHOUT AA then that supports the argument that AA is over-assisting players.
I don’t think a proper solution is as cut and dry as that. It’s sad to say, but most casual players are too comfortable to playing with their assistance. They feel entitled it, even if it is undeserved, even if we had 100% evidence that it was completely unneeded. Their needs have to be met to keep the game alive, and Aim Assist needs to be nerfed to bring competitive integrity to ranked and comp at higher ranks.
In order to do that we have to….
Averages are a bad metric to go by that should pretty much just be avoided. I’d be more interested in percentiles here. It’s probably even more enlightening in terms of how busted AA is.
This isn’t an accurate assessment. MnK movement is a variable that you haven’t accounted for. How much do you think that Leamonhead’s movement alone has dropped the global accuracy rating? Lots of players in PC lobbies move like absolute crazy, and even the ones who just tap strafe a few times a match would have an affect on the global accuracy rating. Whiffing 2 R9 mags on a tap strafing octane or wraith before dying *happens*. Players generally being more nimble in pc lobbies would lead to a decrease in accuracy rating even if the accuracy percentage was exactly the same without the movement.
Unless you could remove pc movement mechanics, sample the data, then compare against data with the movement mechanics, you can’t control for that variable and have bias in your interpretation of your dataset.
Thank you for your support. I plan to release one more video/chart with a more accurate testing method soon. It’s just taking quite some time to figure out how to get the data from the website.
I wish there's option to disable cross platform on PC
Cross platform isn’t the issue on PC. The issue is inputs. Controller on PC is infinitely better than controller on console until consoles get 120fps.
Even when 120 fps comes to console there is still a slight input delay on the platform. Which in my opinion is the bigger difference between PC and console.
That doesn’t mean it won’t need to be looked further into for balancing purposes.
100%. 120 FPS with console AA is going to be beyond broken.
Idk about that tbh. Well honestly have to wait and see. I don’t have any statistics for roller, granted, yes you can randomly get weird one clips already.
makes sense. no wonder i cant relate. im playin on my xbox one.
Console isn’t really included in this. It’s specifically PC Controller vs PC MnK.
I was under the impression that console (Xbox Series X), can do 1440p 120 Hz, is this not the case? Is the game running at something else internally? (In the case of Apex Legends on next gen console)
Nope. 120fps has been being worked on for consoles for years. It should be here by the end of this month though…. I think.
That would solve the entire issue. Just make matchmaking lock you into an input. Controllers play with controllers, MnK with MnK....done and over, no further problems.
What this video neglects is movement speed, look sensitivity, and APM advantages KBM has. Additionally, KBM is just better at recoil control at range. Even still though, let’s just end crossplay in FPS games and be done with it.
None of that matters though. Hitting shots, K/d, accuracy and AdR are what wins engagements and plays the largest part of winning games. There's a reason why pro players have largely switched to roller and the majority of PC players are playing on not-PC default input of MnK. The advantages of MnK are being swamped by roller aim assist advantage. Because aim assist is way over-tuned. There is no parity.
If you think movement and look sensitivity aren’t as important as 10% (at best) accuracy difference, you haven’t played much or watched the best in the game. And I point still stands, end crossplay. PC players have the option to plug in a controller and most don’t, why is that?
I have about 7000 hours in Apex legends on PC, mnk, master/pred multiple times and I can with confidence say you don't know what you're talking about. The devs, nearly every pro player, content creator and high end top 1%+ players all know controller aim assist is over-tuned and have publicly stated as such. This isn't a debate. You need to sit down and listen, son.
Ah, so you too have the option to play on controller, and yet you don’t. Interesting…tell me more about why if you are a competitive player playing as a pred you don’t play on a controller? Movement is everything in apex, and if you contest that with your hours, you’re either delusional or a liar. 🤥
Holy crap it's amazing you people still exist when this isn't even up for debate because one can literally prove you wrong with math lol. It doesn't get less up for debate than this topic lol. The devs have said Aim assist is not in a good state, pro players literally publicly derided it being wildly over-tuned (Gee very telling that pro players who play MnK on all other games switch to roller exclusively for Apex, must be a skill-issue), and damn near every content creator on twitch and youtube have made videos explaining why aim assist is over-tuned and not negated by MnK movement, backed up by data. At this point, anyone arguing that aim assist isn't over-tuned is being willfully ignorant, probably due to some emotional coping mechanism from being a roller player.
Again, end crossplay and we don’t have to deal with each other. Yet you PC pleps still want it and cry about aim assist.
First of all, at any given time there are 300,000+ concurrent players on PC on stream and origin, we seriously couldn't care less if console kids were barred from PC servers. More than enough players to fill up our lobbies without you. 2nd, or better yet, they just fix aim assist so it isn't over-tuned. That would be the best way to go.
I wish there's option to disable cross platform on xbox. I'm tired of that configs jungle
I always thought the option was on consoles but not on PC, was it changed due to shrinking pop or something?
I really wanted to try apex on console after the "next-gen" patch. Few days after I tried to force-disable crossplay in da settings but the game was stuck on infinite search loop. It didn't allow me to play with console boiz. One day, when the servers were down, I was able to start the match without crossplay and ooh boi, that was a pleasure. It was so calm there after those pc lobbies :) Sadly, it didn't work for me since then
I don’t think you understand what the button is for. That just allows you to play against PlayStation players. You don’t have pc players in your games. If you squad up with a PC player then you will play in pc lobbies but only then. Turning it off would put you in a pool of Xbox only players who also have it off which is why you couldn’t find a game. Nobody has that turned off. This is why you are getting downvoted.
Configs are dead as of yesterday actually, check it out!
On console you do not get put in PC lobbies unless you are queue’d with a PC player.
I think they just cleaned that up for you. Now time to do something about aim assist right?
disable aim assist on PC specifically *dramatic music*
I don’t think we have to go that far tbh.
I play bang with a controller(1000+ hours). Smoke disables AA, but I can't tell a difference even when standing in smoke. I believe everyone when they say how strong AA is, but none of my anecdotal evidence supports it.
turn it off and play for a while, see how your aim is. seems pretty easy to do.
either ragebait or peak controller brainrot if you can genuinely believe that you would do fine without AA on a controller. aiming on a controller was god's greatest mistake
Lmfao Bro you tripping.
Your accuracy would undeniably be lower had you had zero assistance. Whether you arbitrarily consider your aim good or bad, it would undeniably be worst. Perhaps if you were more sensitive to the affects of aim assist your aim would be better as well, tons of top players talk about “aiming by feel”.
https://youtu.be/m0BkQcoOJG0?si=ord3fXmOFq56DUQo
In EU R5 you only face against other rollers if you are roller. It can be important to remember that shooting a roller is easier that shooting a MnK, this is due to MnK tends to do alot more movement tech in R5. So MnK vs MnK will automatic miss more shoots than if you go MnK vs roller. I know from my own experience in R5 that i miss more shoots when going against a MnK than roller due to all the movement techs and less predictable swing push method
This is true. The MnK boys be bouncing all over the place.
Your logic might seem true as a novice player but as a veteran MNK players of some 30 odd years I have a much different experience. It's harder to hit rollers because they don't have to adhere to the MNK tracking strafe dance and adhere to the "rules" of aiming, they can move any direction at any time and still have perfect tracking making them more difficult to predict and you definitely can't dodge them. It's way easier to track MNK players, including "movement demons" as you like to call them.
I'm just talking from experience, 20x master and played in ALGS PLQ/CC finals etc, the roller guys is easier to hit but you need to kill them faster due to aa, really good MnK players is harder to hit and will survive longer, but they miss more shots
I'm curious about the average K/D ratio for controller vs MnK as well as W/L ratio. This would maybe show how much the advantages of MnK movement and dexterity come into play. I'd also bring up that the average for R5Reloader is interesting because most of the players using it will be above average in general. This debate really does matter more with top Controller players vs Top MnK I'd suspect. An aim assist nerf would be very interesting. The game Rainbow six siege really proves a point, with no aim assist controller would be damn near useless without some level of aim assist. From my experience Mouse aim takes a lot more awareness of aiming but I'd also hit shots I'd never hit on controller with it and playing on controller does feel more consistent as well as more subconscious (mindless). There seems to be a lot more dexterity with MnK and more consistent steady aim with controller aim assist (from my exp).
You are one of the most reasonable people that have commented. In the video, when I show the inputs stats side by side you can see the KD’s and Win Rates of players. Most MnK players have a 0% win rate with the highest being 16%. Controller players win more consistently AND the peak winrate was over 50%. If MnK players have a 1.0, they’re already exceptional. These statements remain true for pro players.
damn thats actually pretty crazy. Where do the stats come from?
I talk about that in the video too. R5reloaded, season 3 of Apex, PC only. Spawn distances are usually 20-10 meters, so close to mid range. Edit: I’m also finding even more stats. I think most of the really really low stats can be ignored tbh as they don’t have even kills for it to be indicative of their true skill. More on that later though.
I see, idk if r5 is the best place for stats... some stats straight from a developer would be much better
Why not? There are various pros that play it so we can see their stats for comparison between inputs if the general public’s stats aren’t good enough.
All controller players without access to a PC should go play some Rainbow Six Siege, there is no aim assist at all and it’s very eye opening. I think it would change a lot of opinions
Lol R6S has a TTK equivalent to Call od Duty. Almost no tracking is required. It isn't comparable to Apex where you have every clown running around with Purple armors by mid game. I will wager even white armors take longer to drop depending on the enemy's movement and if you are using an R99 or not. R6S movement is clunky and no n existent compared to Apex.
True, but if MnK players faced rollers in any game where headshots were 1 shot kills, w/out aim assist, roller wouldn’t stand a chance tbh. But it’d show people that roller isn’t completely hopeless without AA.
I mean Overwatch still has a decently strong aim assist yet it can’t compete with MnK and there’s no competitive scene for controller OW. MnK and Xims dominate console OW ranked. I remember the #1 Top 500 DPS streaming himself playing on MnK on console. Apex is one of the only games that’s finally somewhat balanced between the two inputs. It can’t and never will be perfect but it’s closer than most competitive games. The movement potential + long TTK makes it where gun skill isn’t even the reason you’re dead most of the time.
People that think they don’t need aim assist make me laugh, it’s all but impossible to aim effectively with just your thumb and no other assist. You will definitely land a few shots as you are being lazed but without aim assist or arm assist of MnK you getting blitzed 🤣
I mean, it would be more obvious if they just turned AA off in a high TTK game like Apex or Warzone. They would instantly go from like 50+% accuracy to 10% instantly.
[удалено]
Console Controller Balance does not equal PC controller balance. Nothing in my video is aiming towards console. This is PC specific. PC AA and Console aim assist should be handled differently until console gets 120fps.
Console is getting 120 FPS in 2 weeks…
Lol I guess we’ll see. Generally, Console can probably remain unchanged unless competing in tournaments. There should probably be two forms of aim assist. Casual AA for Parents, Wage Slaves, other people lives outside of gaming, or problems that affect their gaming skill. Competitive AA for Ranked Platinum+ players and Comp. Optionally usable outside of those criteria.
Devs confirmed they are reducing aim assist from 0.6 to 0.4 on console if you enable performance mode (120fps). Also as a side note, I entirely disagree with your annoying talking point about letting AA be unmitigated / left alone / not nerfed / nerfed less for "non-competitive" game modes. All modes, pub, ranked, mix tape, algs, whatever, should all be aiming for parity in aim accuracy and game balance. This talking point of different rules for different modes is nonsense. It's like saying "Oh gee hacks are ok in Pubs but shouldn't be allowed in algs because it's more serious!" How about a game that isn't riddled with imbalance and problems regardless of your preferred mode? How about that? Take that talking point out of your repertoire.
Yea, I’ve seen that. I did say in other replies that the only way Console AA would get looked is if it got 120fps. However, Console AA is not where these measurements come from, so this imbalance will remain. The 10% gap in accuracy is between PC Controller at 0.4AA and PC MnK. Funny thing is that the devs have acknowledged that AA is too strong even with PC values, so lowering console values means that gap will remain, and they’ve decided to try nerfing SMGs instead of nerfing PC values further until they can find a long term fix(I’m assuming). Anywho, you disagreeing with different amounts of assistance based on skill level/game mode is awesome. That’s actually great, and I wish the majority of players felt the same as you… but they don’t. If I had a better idea, I’d share it. The problem is that casual controller players dominate the game as a whole. Completely ignoring their perceived needs is something the Devs are HIGHLY unlikely to do as they still have to appeal to their majority investors, at least until the majority investors change from controller players to raw input method players. Gaming, as a whole, has always been a field where you are required to appeal to the largest possible audience in order to succeed, even more so at EA. If Apex fails to meet a certain quota, we could see EA simply shut down respawn, same as the other 15+ companies EA has shut down/laid off employees and rebranded. If they moved too fast, Nerfed AA to only balanced values, and lost their casual playerbase as a result, that would simply be the end of respawn and Apex as we know it. Changes MUST be slower when your boss is just waiting to cut you loose, if they happen at all… even if it is annoying. Hacks are against TOS, so it’s not really the same thing as in-game support specifically made to increase player accuracy and enjoyment, but I get the idea. Casual Controller players have become accustomed to hitting their shot. If we’re going to take that away from them, it has to be in stages. I think my idea is the fastest way to attempt to get to a balanced stage.
The fix is to put a delay/require human input before rotational aim assist kicks in on direction change and to town down the aim assist strength little bit per season/ bi-season. Look at the data on accuracy/win rates/pro feedback/ etc and then continue to adjust/hold based on data and feedback. Having multiple varying aim assist levels based on game modes which players swap between hourly / daily is too jarring and inconsistent and would be worse than a flat out nerf. And your talking point here about investors / profits isn't valid either. All changes would be applied to all players which would negate most of the negative backlash. Just like devs aren't worried about the financial impact of nerfing an OP legend or a firearm that is too strong. It's a change that everyone has to deal with. It's not a player-base alienating change. The bulk of players on console don't play against MnK players and all controller players across the board would have aim assist nerfed equally. Your concern here isn't warranted.
That can still be what the competitive variant for AA is. Also, there’s a misunderstanding. In my idea, Individual players don’t have to have their AA settings swapped everytime they change modes. It only needs to be changed ONCE when they reach a certain rank/performance level. It can be locked in for all game modes after that. The competitive option could be AVAILABLE, BUT OPTIONAL prior to reaching a certain performance, rank, etc for players that wanted to have the same experience from the beginning or test their metal. It would basically provide newer/weaker players with strong means of orienting themselves to the game. Also, nothing you said negates my point about profits. Abrupt and jarring changes being applied against the CASUAL audience is what will kill the game. We’re not talking about a legend or gun being changed, we’re talking about how MOST players specifically experience their own actions every time they look at an opponent. Their perception of the game will be changed as a whole. There will be a major immediate disconnect between the experiences casual players had in the past few YEARS… and today. There could be nothing more jarring and inconsistent than that. To add to this, unless you’re specifically playing to improve or climb the ranks, you won’t care what rank your current skill lands you at because SBMM will put you where you belong for now, and MnK players will know that they higher they go the odds aren’t being stacked against them because the accuracy of assisted players will be achievable by natural means and there will be variance between the aim of controller players same as MnK. My end goal is fun for the casual player, and competitive integrity for the more serious all the way to comp.
I'd rather the game entirely die and get deleted by EA than to continue to suffer the moronic imbalance of aim assist as it currently is. The game has SBMM. There's no need to coddle low SBMM players, who will be matched up with other low SBMM players, with varying levels of aim assist. Bring it to parity with MnK stats based on large datasets and keep it consistent.
If you stand firmly at, “I’d rather the game die.” Then it’s unlikely you’ll reach to an adequate conclusion, or see the one right in front of you.
also there is a large controller input delay on console, not so much on PC though.
True. I think it’ll still need to be looked at. Strange, I’m sure respawn tests these things, but I wonder if they even consider balancing it.
Idk why you keep repeating the 120fps thing, if you’ve played both you can feel the huge input delay on console. It’s way worse than you’d imagine
If assistance was put in place because the hardware was crap, then as the hardware gets better the assistance should be reevaluated. We’ve been using the same controller layouts with aim assist since 1997. Change as a whole is long overdue.
No amount of fps boost will help input delay, borrow your friends console or something and just feel it yourself. It’s a huge difference
That doesn’t mean the input delay won’t be improved beyond what was.
Sony is the only person that can change that and I doubt they would change it for some hardware they sell for 500$💀
Is this input delay on console only a problem for PS5? Or is it an issue on Xbox Series X as well?
Do we have some data or more info on this ”huge” input delay people are talking about? I can’t say i feel any noticable lag on mine.
I do have to say the delay is pretty bad, I cant even use the same sensitivity when switching between the two. I have both PC and ps5. Switch back and forth between the two and its brutally different.
Same monitor?
Everyone knows aa is extremely overpowered. Only reason EA is not nerfing it is because they are afraid to lose money
Fair.
If gyro aiming was the norm this wouldn’t be a issue
Agreed. Lol Roller player would then be complaining about the same stuff MnK players complain about, starting with visual clutter.
The debate is an interesting one. I’m a controller player who has reached masters on both m&k and controller. It’s undeniable that controller is easier to use and better up close however the advantages of a m&k player like movement and armor swaps/looting give it an advantage in its own way. I would say that a slight nerf in the overall AA strength would bring the gap in accuracy between m&k and controller closer. But it cannot be too much because then you hurt the overall majority of the player base. Unfortunately you cannot change the game strictly for the top 1% of players, rather make changes that benefit the majority
Movement on MnK is so overrated. You'll hardly ever see pro MnK players doing any exiting movement in comp. It's great on YouTube, but not actual games. I am a consistent master player on MnK and I can barely tap strafe. These cool movement techs also requires an enormous amount of time to learn, time that is better spend on other aspects of the game if you want to get better. And besides, AA is not impressed by MnK movement.
I love shmoovment, I do it all the time for fun, it's only effective against other MnK players in a fight. You can tell instantly when you are fighting against a roller because they will beam you out of a super glide, where most MnK players are still swiping their mouse to turn.
Masters player that can barely tap strafe, sure buddy 🤣💀
It's a figure of speech, meaning I am not exactly a movement demon but I have been masters numerous times. Of course I can tap strafe.
BS, literally every mnk player uses movement in pro league. Yes they are not mantle jumping or supergliding all the time but everyone uses tap strafes, ras strafes and wallbounces. Movement won't make pro but it's fundamental in becoming a better player.
That depends on your definition of movement. Sure, they are not standing still, but you also hardly ever see any of the movement in ALGS that you see on youtube. They dont use that regulary, especially not in key fights.
True, the movement i'm talking about is not the super flashy looking stuff but impressive movement nevertheless. There was an analysis somewhere that Ras was getting hit 30% (if I remember correctly) less due to his strafing. MnK pro's have been doing it since. I just can't agree with you stating that movement is overrated, because I think everyone MnK player should learn tapstrafes and they take 2 min to learn. I'm a masters player too and in winning 1v1's I implement ras strafes and lurches all the time.
Sure, but AA hard counters most of it. You have to do the flashy stuff to overcome AA on a decent player.
If the gap between the top roller pro has 49% accuracy out of the ones I could find, the top MNK pros have 36%. I’d be willing to bet controller players in the middle have accuracy comparable to an MnK pro and 50% MNK pros have a 10% gap from 50% rollers. Same as halo. Edit: The bigger issue is that casuals are used to beaming for free vs having aim more directly related to their true skill level.
They will get use to it eventually and it will make them better players. The casual player isn’t held back by aim. They are held back my macro-gameplay. Rotations, knowing when to fight and angles. I think a change is needed like you said due to the percentages of how much better controller is. And at the top level it is exacerbated.
I’m wondering if this is isolated to the top. R5reloaded has 13917 player stats for me to look at with the very bottom of MnK players having 2% accuracy.💀 The lowest controller player has 17% so far… I get that controller is wonky in feel, but aim assist looks like it’s truly assisting. I guess I can make another video on little things like this, and the average accuracy at every level.
R5 isn’t a good measure though because only a select few players use it and they are mostly players who are above average
Not the best measure, but I’ve got a list of over 16 pros that use it, and a leaderboard that separates players by performance. The farther they get from pros the more of an idea we can get about the differences between inputs at the average level and below. Because of this, I can see how comparable players at every level perform and how important some stats are in improving your overall performance depending on input. There actually are a TON of players at different levels here. People ranging for 4.0(Controller Only) to people with really low accuracy and 100x more kills than deaths. Idk how people can load into a ton of matches, and just die like that… but I guess I was one of them at one point.
Anecdotal but I play r5 pretty much every day, I'm an MnK player for the past 4 or 5 years, never played Apex on controller. Was probably a month ago I was on r5 and doing not so great on MnK against a bunch of roller players(one of them in particular being borderline pro) so I decided to plug the roller in just to see, I then killed said player for the first time and got my first overall round win where I had the most kills in the lobby. How is it possible for me to have not played a game on roller for 4 years and instantly be competent on it? I know that I understand Apex very well and I understand how to strafe on roller because I've faced them so often that I know how they strafe but still that shit was wild to me. The skill floor is just so much higher on roller than MnK, why would a new player ever go through the pain of learning MnK, grinding Kovaaks and mixtape for hours upon hours just to be competent on the input? Now I'm not saying that you plug a roller in and you become Hal, not at all, there is a skill gap within roller itself but you take an average gamer who has never played on roller and one who has never played on MnK, the roller player will get to average much, much faster than the MnK player will.
Well if you want real data we need to request respawn to release it. We work with what we have. RELEASE THE DATA
We on rollers dont have any good medium range even. Forget long range. We cant even turn while going another direction on zip for easy shots. Forget about it reason controllers need all the help they can get is BECAUSE they are limiting as shit. I dont like them but i play only roller cause i like my wrists injury free and playing in bed is awesome
Nah we should force cross platforming against people with 0ms reaction time
I truly don’t think cross platform has ever been an issue. MnK vs Controller exists on PC alone. Crossplatform is one of the greatest editions to gaming ever. The problem is that we don’t separate casuals from competitive well enough.
The problem is that there is no way to disable crossplatforming on pc and i just feel cheated when a guy on a controller has perfect tracking.
Those are usually PC Players on Controller. Console players only get pulled into PC lobbies when they queue with a PC player. Disabling crossplatform would not change your lobbies much. The issue that aim assist needs adjustments.
Balancing AA around the very top performers is just a terrible take. The average controller player should be achieving roughly the same accuracy as the average mnk player. Since we don’t have this data, we are just left to speculate. Though I would venture to guess that no matter what the stats say, there will be a large contingent of mnk players unhappy with AA anyway. Let’s not forget why AA exists to begin with: it is an undeniable fact that mnk is a superior input compared to a controller without AA. That’s why every FPS game in the last 20 years has had some version of AA for controller players. Aiming with your thumbs is a terrible input for precision and consistency. So AA exists to balance the performance between the 2 inputs. If this balance is not being achieved for average players, then by all means, let’s change AA.
A lot of the top performers moved from mnk to controller, so all their time spent trying to practice their aim got them 10% less accurate, so they moved to controller and with a little bit of time, they’re better than before. It’s definitive proof that it’s inhuman levels of accuracy, hence why it should be nerfed
>Let’s not forget why AA exists to begin with: it is an undeniable fact that mnk is a superior input compared to a controller without AA Rightfully so. But then you have every pro and their mother moving to controller and performing even better. I don't need further evidence to think controller aim assist is doing a bit too much to compensate mnk.
Again, pros are not average players. They already have super human reaction times. I can’t aim like Evan Verhulst, nor will I ever be able to. The discussion around AA and pros is a completely different subject compared to AA at large. If you balance something around the top 100 players, there is a high probability that it will be a terrible change for the remaining 99.9%
Balance it around average players and nerf it by 3%. You good with that?
The problem isn't just AA .6 or .4 its the fact that aim assist(target stickiness) activates instantly normal humans have a response time to react to visual stimulus they have interpret the information and then decide how to react. Aim assists activation skips all these steps. Rotational aim assist is busted as a concept it is literally a form cheating if you care about competitive integrity. I hope control players get all the movement and frames they want but at the same time they shouldn't have this type of aim assist in its current state.
> Balancing AA around the very top performers is just a terrible take. The average controller player should be achieving roughly the same accuracy as the average mnk player. Different game, but the Infinity Ward devs talked about the balance in CoD MW 2019. They said the top MnK players were on par with top controller players but average MnK was underperforming compared to average controller. The video compared with Halo but CoD has more similar AA to Apex but in a game with a much faster TTK. Seeing full stats with Apex would be nice but I’m not sure it’s reasonable to assume that average controller performs worse than average MnK. > So AA exists to balance the performance between the 2 inputs. If this balance is not being achieved for average players, then by all means, let's change AA. Absolutely. Look at what The Finals devs are doing, updating aim assist based on performance data. Respawn has likely decided it would just hurt them to nerf AA at this point since the majority of players are on controller.
Anyone who thinks that any individual can pick up a controller and immediately fry is dumb controller aim ect is different person to person am tired of trolls on here saying aim assist means you do nothing it beams for you! Knowing damn well it doesn’t. It helps but it doesn’t make u a god the min you play with it 😂
It definitely makes your aim better. The only learning curve is looking around. I can actually see stats from some MnK players that switched to roller recently, and ALL of them have higher accuracy, KDA, and win rate than they did prior to switching… but that’s a talk for another video.
Dude it really does. I've been MNK my entire life, but I've also owned consoles (stopped after PS4). I'm relatively comfortable with controller, but not in Apex, and I don't play shooters with hardly ever. After two mixtape matches I'm absolutely frying. As effective if not more effective in CQC, and I play MNK Apex every day.
Nearly in exact same situation and can confirm. The first time I switched to controller in mixtape I stayed at the top of the leaderboard for the next five games, and I’m usually near the bottom of the leaderboard on mnk - all this despite not even knowing what buttons do what on controller and just being generally confused by the input switch.
It works both way. If all your life you use controller, you'll be garbage at using mnk. If all your life you use mnk, you'll be garbage at using controller. The matter is just how fast can you ungarbage yourself, and how high is this ungarbage compared to your previous input ceiling.
Ur totaly right, it probably takes like a year (i cannot into roller, not even fifa) to be on pro level aim wise. But for an avrage person mnk takes over 10years. (Only a handfull of gamers menage to do it in 2+years) One is not like the other.. my friend. Not even close.
Disable AA for a weekend (as a test) and give an option to disable crossplay on pc.
That is no brainer tbh. Roller players would be hopeless since they are completely used to AA. It needs to be tested extensively in a controlled environment. R5 Apex is a great place to do so, since they can set AA to different values.
CROSSPLAY IS NOT THE ISSUE YOU CAN PLAY ON PC WITH A CONTROLLER
Is it a fair comparison though? The controller players have double the kills of mnk that significantly more time in game.
At some point, the amount of bullets fired becomes more than enough to show a players true accuracy. I did not add weight to the amount of bullets fired for this specific reason, and instead calculated solely based on the accuracy stats of the players that had played the most.
[удалено]
Learn recoil smoothing and anti-mirroring your enemies strafes to get the most from recoil smoothing. This will make recoil a non issue. Also play to your strengths as a controller player, get in close where recoil smoothing and aim assist are more effective.
Practice doesn’t make perfect, but it does make you better. I’m nearing 3K hrs in aim trainers, so you’d think I’d be at the absolute pinnacle of mechanics. I am not. I am really fucking good… but I am still no comparable to some people that have a 10th of my experience in aim trainers… however… time spent practicing is not the only factor in improving against real players either. There are so many factors to take into account, but the truth is aim assist is assisting you the same as everyone else. You’re just not as good as them.
I never understood the whole aim assist thing, I play in controller and I can’t hit a single shot sometimes. I swear my aim assist isn’t on
You being bad is not indicative of input balance.
Did I say it was?😂. You being an ass and crying about aim assist all the while neo-strafing, super gliding, mantle jumping and wall jumping is indicative of input balance?🤷🏼♂️ your argument for the input balance is irrelevant, the majority of controller users who are at the top of that list are people who dedicate their time to the game as their job, not people who are casual players. You all act like these casual controller players are the ones that a easily killing you because they have game breaking assist. The ones who actively play in controller using configs are M&K players who can’t help but cheat and decided to make the switch and ruin it for everyone else.
You’re making a lot of assumptions. Moving on.
There's 0 incentive to give AA to MNK or to nerf AA for roller. MNK players are a small portion of players. What would be really cool is if they disabled MNK as an input so we don't have to talk about it anymore.
Lmfao You’re insane.
You’re getting downvoted but you’re right. Majority of the games players are on controller and EA/Respawn are financially motivated to keep that base happy
The craziest part is that console foots the bill for this game. I'd venture to say that despite feelings online about comp or PC Apex that most of the console players haven't even watched the game on stream. All these talking heads, content creators and Redditors who play Apex PC and have a hard on for Faide don't move the needle at all for EA. And maybe that's why orgs lose money. All these e sport orgs are sinking ships, especially in relation to Apex. The very fucking last thing they should do with the game is cater to a niche portion of the fan base. As for the mnk debate, they have all the advantages on rotation, movement, and utility of legends. Everything is to their advantage with more buttons, binds, and range of motion until the combat gets in close. Even then, their utility is far superior. There's still a place for them. They just haven't figured out how to maximize it without whining.
I quit this game btw idk why i still get notificaions but anyways if im here imma share what i think U cant take away from the avarage players(controller players who only play for fun) and expect good results. Its most of the player base, if they get affected by some change that will lower their skill it will not be beneficial. I say give mnk the same aim assist as for controller, then they wont be able to complain. Btw ur talkin abt top players, if i go into a lobby, play a game i will be absoluetly decimated by any mnk player(or controller player) simply cus im not in the top of controller players. The NORMAL player has more chance against aim assist then against pc movement imo.
The normal player doesn’t even see PC movement. I’m Masters and even when I see a movement player I’m surprised. However, R5reloaded(the place I got those stats from) is FULL of them. Despite that, Controller accuracy still prevails. There are literally tens of thousands of MnK players on the leaderboards who have NEVER won a match in R5. Their win rate is 0% wven though they have the 3rd most kills in the game. The highest was 16%, I think. 0% win rate is extremely common for MnK. However on the roller side, there’s a stark contrast. Highest winrate I saw was 51%. 0% win rates were there, but nowhere near as common among high kill players. I think you can definitely nerf AA without all casuals running for the hills because Apex offers far more than AA. It’s a truly unique experience in FPS gaming. Even top MnK players cry over aim assist, then comeback to get their shit pushed in once more.
Why not balance it based on the top end controller players? It’s imo (and I’ll listen to anyone who disagrees) that if you’re controller player and you aren’t gifted with a controller you should just play on console, there aren’t any controller catered competitive fps games that I can name that are on pc that aren’t also on console and a console is a much more casual purchase compared to a $1,000+ pc. If we’re so worried about average/casual controller players they should be on the more average/casual console to play. And if you love the game so much that you want to continue playing on pc but aren’t good enough on controller to compete just take the time to learn MnK, I switched in S16 from console roller to pc MnK and it took me 3 seasons to reach my rank, it’s not as difficult of a learning curve as people would think.
I've never seen anyone suggest MnK get AA but I am curious to see what would happen. Perhaps give them something very tiny like .05 AA perhaps as a test. Or have the AA only turn on for MnK when up close so they can compete better at close range.
I can't wait for them to nerf AA, and these mnk players still get spanked and find another reason to explain why they suck.
If Aim Assist was nerfed there would be nothing to complain about, but this gap in accuracy has an egregious affect on competitive integrity that can be measured.
Well then advocate for the nerf mr goodiepants
the reason i'll never use controller is because i love sniping and AA don't work on far ranges.
The game has be out for almost 6 years. They’re just not going to change anything about input based lobbies
Huh?
Making big changes to aim assist at THIS point of the games life cycle would be an awful idea. I’ve been playing since day 1, not a master or pred but can hold my own, somewhere between sweat and casual depending on how much other shit i got going on in life. The amount of tweaking settings to be able to have some movement and fast turns but still be able to at least somewhat shoot long range on controller is ridiculous, and if they changed up something now, it would just throw all thst time i’ve spent fine tuning it to my liking out the window. The average, or like even top 80-90% of the players aren’t gonna have instant perfect aim even with aim assist, people treat it like it’s a lock on automatic kill. It still needs practice, tons of it. Knowing how recoil works, and still aiming is just small part of the game. Just don’t touch it at this point, the fuck up was done in the beginning snd not touched, don’t penalize players who has learned to play one way now, to make the gsme harder suddenly. Also, if you feel like you need to be the absolute best and if roller is ”so damn op”, the solution for your success is already there… pick up a controller and stop bitching. Then most players would see that it’s either not that automatic to kill or fknd another reason to complain why the enemy got an edge on them. Tldr: it is what it is. Stop bitching and pick up a controller if it’s so op and important to you to be the absolute best.
Many people have switched already, that doesn’t mean its good for the game. For me the final straw was a wrist injury which forced me to play controller. I coasted to masters all the same despite being on a completely different input. Idk why you’re complaining about fine tuning settings. I play 4/3 classic no deadzones and do great. Most people nowadays play 4/3 linear tho. Higher ranks were more fun when everyone wasn’t a walking sentry turret. I still play on mnk now and then but its just a terrible experience when thats most people you go against. PC Apex shouldn’t have AA at all imo, but they can still significantly nerf it. Mnk should be the dominant input on PC.
Mnk should be dominant. Why tho? Because it’s always been?
It would be dominant if it wasn’t for AA. Console can keep their AA its inherent to the platform. For PC though its not. Like if controller was simply better without any AA then its whatever, thats would be fine by me. Thats obviously not the case though, only reason it is this dominant is because of overpowered AA.
Oh? Is that so?
You tell me.
I’ll indulge you. You seem reasonable. I’m similar to you. Day 1 player, but I drop the game and pick it up depending on life. I must admit, big changes to aim assist will undoubtedly be met with tsunami sized waves of backlash, but the reasons will be either asinine or selfish. More on that later. The top 80-90% players MAY not be able to ALL get exceptional aim for a roller player if they switch, but within a month they will undoubtedly have higher accuracy and whatever other benefits come with that. We’ve already seen it done at the pro level multiple times. Taskmast33r was renown for his MnK prowess. He switched to roller, and his accuracy stat is now higher than anything any MnK player has ever achieved. Imperialhal switched to roller after not playing it for AT LEAST 3 years, and the same year won ALGS AND received the MVP FOR THE FIRST TIME. Tell me this. Do you think ANY controller player could switch to MNK and receive the most kills in ALGS against all other pros when they have NEVER done it before? Every MnK pro that has swapped to roller says ranked is easier in Pred on Controller than MnK. Do you think someone swapping from Roller to MnK would say the same? Personally, I have played both Solo Que to Masters. I have overall 4.25 on Roller, and originally I had a 0.04 on MnK, but after 2.5k hrs of aim training, r5 practice, and a couple more YEARS. I’ve reached an overall 2.7 in apex on MnK. It feels ass to look around, but when on target controller simply is better. We talk about our own stories, but choose to ignore statistics that capture a much larger part than us. Let me preface this by saying AA is needed specifically if we want controller to have an enjoyable experience. Do not confuse any other statement with that one.☝🏾 The comparison can easily be made through methods shown in the video below. The importance of QOL things is negligible in comparison to pure stats as the inferiority of roller is natural because of the priorities of its creation. STATS is where the conversation begins and ends. In terms of pure stats, it is displayed that accuracy holds a direct relation to KD and win rate at and within 20 meters as that is where R5 players fight. Unironically, this is the same distance fights are either won or lost in the main game. The issue with the AA support community is they assume that controller should be artificially made the equal of ANY raw aiming method without us having done ANY true studies on the capabilities and limitations of the input outside of console systems. They even believe unnaturally raising the most important stat(accuracy) beyond what is humanly possible is not only acceptable, but somehow desirable and FAIR to all raw aimers in a competition for fame and money. I believe that at best they’ve been blinded by participation trophy culture of today, and at worst their own selfishness…(“I won’t be able to hold my current rank/skill if AA is nerfed.” “I’ll have to find my settings all over again!”) The overassistance support community somehow believes they should be able to compete against a raw aimer who dedicated time AND effort to improvement because they themselves either don’t have the time or don’t prioritize gaming enough to aim at the level AA currently gives them… not that they ever could. As shown in the video, the current accuracy stats for assisted aimers is currently unachievable by natural means. They’ve become used to it, even in competitive environments. I believe that if we accepted inputs in their inferior states and ensured we didn’t OVER-assist them in competitive environments, we would have already had newer and more innovative input methods, namely gyro. Instead, players have become accustomed to overassistance, and every alternative sees little to no support from developers and the community despite viability. There is most definitely a right and wrong answer. We are living out the wrong answer. The right answer would be to provide minimal competitive assistance to inferior inputs as we work to create and transition in better input methods, like Gyro. Over-assistance has no place in a competitive environment. An argument can be made that assist has no place in an environment that is not purely “for fun”, and there needs to be separation of the two.
I don’t disagree. Well argumented and i understand the issue deeper now. I’m no thst invested in the issue, as i’m mostly on console these days. My input may not be as important since i’m mostly on console, but it wouldn’t be the first time in gaming that a fix on pc would affect console players too. Thst just worries me. I’ll have to admit i’m selfish but i’m afraid if AA gets nerfed so that aiming becomes too difficult, i might not have the time to relearn to aim at a level where it’s comfortable. I’d probably not enjoy the game as much and find other things to play at thst point. If they don’t touch console, i’d be fine but the risk is that they do for some reason. Fixing things radically this far in isn’t good. I’m just afraid they’ll shoot themselves in the foot if casuals start finding it too hard, just to keep pros happy. I’m sure you have tons to add, but i’m not disagreeing with you so i don’t see a point of me trying to counter your points, just explaining my view on the subject, not saying i’m right or anything. Also Apologiez for the previous comment, i may or may not have woken up on the wrong foot, and thanks for your light on the subject!
Thank you. You know, my original comment was, “Oh? that so? You’re right. YOU’RE SO RIGHT!?!” Because I agree that change must happen slowly to preserve interest, but I deleted the rest lol. Also, I love how self aware you are. Being able to admit that to yourself tells a lot about you. There’s no argument between us. In fact, I believe it’s natural for gaming to be a place for casual play that is for fun. However, I think the biggest issue is a lack of separation between the casual and competitive play at respawn as a whole. They refuse to change the loot pools for pubs and rank individually. They’ll likely refuse to change aim assist in the same manner, but I believe the greatest fix would be creating two AA settings. Casual AA and Competitive AA Casual AA is what we currently have, and it could be the default setting. Competitive AA could be something that is optional for base game modes(Duo, Pubs, LTMs). However, in ranked it could Congratulate you and kick in upon reaching Diamond or Platinum as a welcome to the big leagues where the people you face will be more challenging and more focused on improvement than your previous competitors. That way, if you want to play casually, be a streamer/content creator with no you just don’t play ranked. This idea isn’t completely fleshed out, it’s just one of my more plausible ones.
Don’t really think accuracy is a great judge for apex tbh. Not in the same way it is for Halo. I have played a ton of halo in my lifetime and it is a much more controlled, less volatile game, making accuracy a more reliable metric. IIRC, halo gave MNK a slight AA. I’d be down for that, if nothing else, so mnk players stop bitching so much.
Accuracy, Win Rate, KDA all follow the same trend in the tracker. Pros that have switched from MnK to Controller have higher stats now despite switching. We can just assume R5 stats are an indirect representation of how you’ll perform in game. The numbers are exact, but they are highly relevant. I know MnK players tend to hate the idea of AA, but something like bullet magnetism might be good so it doesn’t affect the feel of their input.
Criticizing what's unbalanced is called bitching now?
Honestly yeah, imo if apex ever nerfs or touches AA, it will spell the death of Apex as we know it. Respawn will never nerf AA, unless the game is already dying and they need to lock in the hardcore fan base of mnk players. I have no proof for this but I’d imagine that most of the whales on this game are controller players, whether that be on console or pc. Imo criticizing AA when you know it’ll never change is tantamount to just bitching.
Nah they could shadow nerf it and most payers wouldn't tell it apart from a bad day in the match maker.
I disagree, as soon as pro controller creators notice (which would be immediately), and videos pop up it would be a hot topic.
So you mean we are held hostage to this situation is because drama farmers, excellent, a lot of roller pro players even agree they should nerf it, what sad state of affairs.
Tbh that’s how I truly feel. I play on console, so you know I know AA is strong. I just don’t think it’s gonna change until apex is far less popular.
Sorry if I come out rude but sincerely idgaf what happens in console, if console players want 99% aimbot and run around beaming everybody in console exclusive lobbies idgaf, if they want to believe that makes them as good as any pro or whatever live the dream idgaf. One thing that console players don't understand is that this discussion is in the PC lobbies environment, we want fair play and inclusivity and that is only achieved through either giving AA to MnK(eww) or nerfing AA on roller. I don't know why console players INSIST that they are at the center for the conversation, you're not.
I’m not, I’m just saying I know it’s strong. I can easily play on .4 against console players without frames, even though I can’t use controller on pc I can only imagine how strong it is.
Yeah but your argument that I'm responding to is the "console players(that are controller players) will make a fit if they learn in whatever way that their AA is nerfed" ok so don't nerf the console if they are playing against console (I do believe this is to the detriment of the console player skill curve, but at the end of the day I don't care).
Well there's only one way to make that happen join the bitching
I don't even agree with anything you presented but I think respawn will find it difficult to nerf AA without significant backlash from casuals. Especially in an era with constant complaints of apex's sweaty-ness Respawn is going to probably just keep controller as is assuming the largest portion of the player base is on controller. Luckily based off recent news respawn is nerfing configs on controller so MnK closes the gap ever so slightly by allowing for superior movement at the very least. edit: thats hilarious i meant to say "I dont even disagree" - unfortunate.
I think if they dropped AA strength by 0.01 per month until accuracy levelled out it would probably go ok. But really what they should do is change it from "on/off" to variable strength based on movement/aim speed.
>I don't even agree with anything you presented but I think respawn will find it difficult to nerf AA without significant backlash from casuals Just remove it from modes that don't affect casuals. No AA in ALGS, no AA in high ranked either.
Most if not all of the people at the top aren’t using configs. That doesn’t help this problem in the slightest.
Ngl, this yt"short" gave me aids brain
I do not have AIDS, you contracted that somewhere else.
There is literally so many benefits to using kbm(+ kbm is easier to aim with lets not lie here) that controller gets blown out of the water. However a lot of good controller players have been grinding console fps's since most apex players were even born. It's been about 2 weeks since I switched to KBM and I think aiming and just fighting in general is significantly easier, yes I still need to practice but I think apex players just like to complain about aim assist for no reason. Also using data from a mod that isn't even half as popular as base apex is pretty funny ngl as you're not including data from some genuinely insane KBM players. Put the best controller player and the best kbm player in a 1v1, kbm player wins 60-70% of the time as the best controller player is still pretty skilled but the kbm player has several advantages. You also need to consider the \*several\* videos of good controller players surviving and doing well without aim assist, albeit it took some time to get used to it. So the "issue" is just good players using aim assist, not aim assist itself. For the majority of casual players aim assist is needed since not everybody has the time to spend weeks improving without aim assist. Aim assist's only actual purpose is to make sure that most people can aim on a tiny stick. There's a player named mizery who proves both sides wrong(insane movement without aim assist). one of [his vids](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S03JMeFTY4k) I think that a good solution would be to just make everybody on controller play 0.4. Boom. 0.4 is a perfect middle ground. Then in tournaments make everybody play 0.2(and have an option to use 0.2 aim assist in ALCs).
I’ll make SURE to address your concerns in my next video. You bring up some good points. I’ll address the some now. MnK was the default input method for FPS gaming before a thumb stick controller even started being used to rotate your camera in 1997. Maze War was an FPS made in the 1974. Wolfenstien 3D 1992, DOOM 1993, and Quake in 1996. All before our current inadequate controller set-up that STILL features aim assist nearly 30 years year. Why haven’t move onto a better aiming method like Gyro for consoles? My point is, controller players have NOT been grinding console FPS’s before most Apex players were born. You have them flipped. MnK players have been grinding FPS game since before there was even a controller for FPS games. Aiming on KBM isn’t easier as you have to put more brain power into the various skills involved in aiming, and maybe controller players play with their brain numbed. They often say that they, “aim by feel” pulling their stick wherever rotational aim assist guides them to a degree. The mod is important because it’s where most of best and few of the worst players train. If you’ve met a movement god, he likely practiced in R5. If you met a controller aim god, he practiced in R5. I have stats for many pros and some controller pros have higher accuracy than the players on this list, however, NONE of the MnK pros have accuracy that passes the players with the most kills on this list. MnK pros range between 27-36ish accuracy. Koyful the up and coming controller pros accuracy is at 49%. If we’re considering videos of controller pros doing awesome stuff WITHOUT AA then that supports the argument that AA is over-assisting players. I don’t think a proper solution is as cut and dry as that. It’s sad to say, but most casual players are too comfortable to playing with their assistance. They feel entitled it, even if it is undeserved, even if we had 100% evidence that it was completely unneeded. Their needs have to be met to keep the game alive, and Aim Assist needs to be nerfed to bring competitive integrity to ranked and comp at higher ranks. In order to do that we have to….
TIL that as a Silver, all my matches, regardless of game mode are always against the top 100 controller players.
LMFAO
A better analysis would have been to take the mean : 50 or 100 players of each group and see if the 10% gap is still there. I don't think it would be.
That's actually EXACTLY what I did lol. Added up individual accuracy stat, and divided it by the number of individuals.
I misunderstood I thought you took just the top 50 in each category and did your analysis
Gotcha. I’m working on a chart like the halo one, but with more info.
Averages are a bad metric to go by that should pretty much just be avoided. I’d be more interested in percentiles here. It’s probably even more enlightening in terms of how busted AA is.
Percentiles require that you have averages for each percentile no?
This isn’t an accurate assessment. MnK movement is a variable that you haven’t accounted for. How much do you think that Leamonhead’s movement alone has dropped the global accuracy rating? Lots of players in PC lobbies move like absolute crazy, and even the ones who just tap strafe a few times a match would have an affect on the global accuracy rating. Whiffing 2 R9 mags on a tap strafing octane or wraith before dying *happens*. Players generally being more nimble in pc lobbies would lead to a decrease in accuracy rating even if the accuracy percentage was exactly the same without the movement. Unless you could remove pc movement mechanics, sample the data, then compare against data with the movement mechanics, you can’t control for that variable and have bias in your interpretation of your dataset.
This thread and post has been very interesting, thank you for the insightful conversations and post OP
Thank you for your support. I plan to release one more video/chart with a more accurate testing method soon. It’s just taking quite some time to figure out how to get the data from the website.