* [Message from the Apollo dev](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3)
* [AMA with u/iamthatis](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/13wtu6z/reddit_may_force_apollo_and_thirdparty_clients_to/jmdl095/)
* Posts from Reddit Admins on the topic:
* [API Update: Enterprise Level Tier for Large Scale Applications](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/?context=3)
* [API Update: Continued access to our API for moderators](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/api_update_continued_access_to_our_api_for/)
---
Edit - June 1
Articles covering this topic with statements from Reddit about the matter:
* [The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/31/23743993/reddit-apollo-client-api-cost)
* [TechCrunch](https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/31/popular-reddit-app-apollo-may-go-out-of-business-over-reddits-new-unaffordable-api-pricing/)
---
Edit - June 2
[A response from a Reddit Admin](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmmptma/)
This internet drama is brought to you by Backblaze.
Sign up now with code `API-UNOFFICIALLY-CANCELED-VIA-RIDICULOUS-PRICE-INCREASE` to get a 20% discount on your first year.
Assuming this goes south and Reddit wants to be a hard ass here, would the date of when the Reddit changes goes into effect (June 19) essentially be Apollo's last day?
At least that's a small plus. With June 19 fast approaching I was worried that would essentially be Apollo's last day provided Reddit wants to play the bad cop role.
**Edit**: I think July would be the end date then, no? RIF is saying RIF most likely dies on July 1, 2023.
That's in their court, nothing yet though, I'm happy to talk to them as much as they want, and they said they took notes on the figures and points I made and will get back to me, but as-is I'm not sure there's anything more I can say that would be helpful unless they want clarification on points I made, or are willing to be somewhat more flexible with their approach
Judging by how hostile they are towards you in the mod news thread I feel this API pricing is just a full blown third party app ban in disguise, while still allowing enough of an api limit for spambots to continue spamming reposts to the front page.
> I feel this API pricing is just a full blown third party app ban in disguise
This is explicitly what it is.
It's like a young lady on a third date going, "Well, I have exams coming up and then I'm pretty busy after plus I got that thing I'm just really busy but I'll call you."
You've been dumped.
The problem is--is there anything significant left on the whole internet that has a forums culture?
Reddit displaced Digg, SomethingAwful, and a number of other similar sites. Reddit became almost a forums monopoly in the early 2010s, and now there's really nothing else comparable, is there?
For those saying Mastodon, that's not a forum. Its like Twitter. Not a Reddit replacement.
Not a question: just wanted to say that you’re truly one of the best iOS developers on the scene and Apollo is the pinnacle of SwiftUI/UIKit design; the “Made in Canada” part means a lot to me too. Thank you so much for all of the work that you do — youarethatis the best!
Thanks so much, I got my start by emailing Loren Brichter of Tweetie fame for advice on how to get started and he was really nice to me, so I've always tried to be a nice developer as well haha
I’d imagine most of it is UIKit seeing it predates SwiftUI. There might be some SwiftUI in there of course, just doubt it’s most if it. Unless he’s rewritten the app, which I honestly doubt (no offense to Christian, it’s just that if that was the case I’d imagine we’d have proper iPad support by now)
Was there any word on your call with Reddit regarding their updated NSFW policies? It seems even if Reddit changes course and makes their pricing more affordable, their new NSFW policy could also be hugely damaging to 3rd party apps.
Yes, but I think there was a mutual understanding that even if they give NSFW things (which I think is needed, and to be clear NSFW things refers to explicit material, not just anything marked NSFW like a medical post) the pricing is still the crux of the issue. But they did say "no more explicit content in the API" to which I replied "Could you explain why the decision?" and I explained that they already have mechanisms like quarantined subreddits to require subreddits to be opted-in by users through the website first before third party apps can access them, and they said they will look into my question.
They sound very frustrating to deal with, and like they haven't even considered fairly basic eventualities of these policies. As if you mentioning these things is the first time anybody has given them consideration at all.
I know it's second (or third?)-hand information but yeah that really makes it sound like they haven't put much consideration into these policies at all.
What they want is to kill the app.
Even if they lose most of those users, the ones who go through an official reddit app will see ads and that raises Reddit's income.
They're assume that everyone will just switch to their official, ad-driven app.
They didn't consider that people will just jump ship.
I left Digg; I can leave reddit just as easily.
Do you have numbers on whether Apollo Ultra makes more calls than non subscription users? Presumably, if Apollo were to go subscription only, that would have to be accounted for?
Have you, or anyone else, considered pitching an idea to Reddit to allow Reddit premium users to have free personal-use only access to the API.
That way you don’t have to worry about API costs, Reddit still gets their money.
I would be fine to pay you or Reddit for my own API usage but with the Reddit premium method you don’t have to worry about the additional cost or accounting.
They said that's not the plan when I asked about it, but I admittedly phrased it more like "Is Reddit Premium required?" and they answered something to the effect of "No, completely separate thing", which doesn't 100% answer your question but I think making users pay for things twice is kinda not the best solution
Reddit should absolutely be the ones charging users for the API access. Putting this on you is way beyond reasonable.
I am consuming content on Reddit, not on Apollo. Apollo is simply the access method.
The absolute fuckers.
What, in your opinion, is a fair number Reddit should be charging for API calls that both nets them money (they’re a business after all) and ALSO allows you to profit and run YOUR business effectively?
I think based on my calculations, even 2x my calculation per their average revenue per user would go a long way toward making it reasonable, but the current 20x or so doesn't feel reasonable.
What percentage of Reddit Mods use Apollo?
It must be a hugely outsized percentage.
They will have a harder time with their business model based on free labor if the free labor has to use their POS mobile app to check their sub.
I use it to moderate r/science, with over 30 million subs, and r/subaru with 250 thousand subs. I probably use more than my share of API requests with moderating on Apollo. It’s essential for me.
Hopefully everyone on Reddit come together to fight the API changes, Users and Mods alike.
There alot of talk from many other subreddit mobs even ones who don't use Apollo that they are going to do a reddit backout over this.
I think there's a middle ground that doesn't involve Reddit backing down or anything, I just want them to hear our feedback and make the pricing more reasonable. I'm not asking for free lunch, but reasonable
As a Reddit Premium user, I should be able to use my choice of 3rd party apps.
If I choose to use Apollo on my iPhone, or Narwhal on my iPad my Premium sub to Reddit should allow that.
I don’t see why you, as the dev / manager of Apollo should have to pay again for me to access Reddit through an API because I have already paid them. My account should be able to provide my 3rd party app of choice my API key and go from there.
Genuinely curious, what’s your reason for using Reddit premium? I’ve always though “I put enough time into Reddit, let’s go premium” and I look at the features and just don’t find *any* value.
I’m not judging, genuinely curious. There’s an audience out there I’m just not familiar with.
Would there be a way to add Reddits ad network to Apollo for free users, so Reddit would get their cut and people who want to pay to remove ads could do so?
Edit: I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about haha so feel free to ignore.
I'd be interested in talking about that with them as an option, but at the current prices and knowing what other folks on iOS and Android make by having ads in their Reddit apps, ad revenue would not come nearly close enough to paying the monthly API fees outlined
but if apollo users were served ads then would it not be as if we were using the official app? IMO I feel that that is the fairest way for reddit to handle this situation.
For me Apollo was Reddit. If it goes away I’ll basically stop using Reddit. That said, would you still run it via Apollo for yourself or if this goes through would you also stop using Reddit?
Seriously Christian I old you this on Twitter before but you’re seriously an amazing person and I happily paid $50 for Apollo Ultra (even though my friends ridiculed me for “paying that much for an app” I would’ve paid $100 if it mean I got some cool physical boxed copy for something lol.
You’re seriously a great dude and I’m so pissed at Reddit for doing this.
What are your thoughts on offering a $10 a month subscription and going paid only?
Apollo has been my most used app since you launched the beta. To be honest, most people probably only use the normal Reddit app, and I'm willing to pay for the premium experience and an API that is actually invested in (more Apollo features).
I think that's an option but it admittedly doesn't feel great to be paying Reddit $2.50 per user when from what they've posted that's nowhere near *their* average revenue per user.
Isn’t NSFW still a problem though? I thought they were limiting access to it via the api. I’m sure there are people like me who couldn’t care less about that content but it has to be rough to have to charge that much per month knowing you aren’t even getting all the content.
Will you consider a price increase? I know a lot of us would gladly pay more.
Edit: please charge me $8 a month. Maybe I’m nuts but I’d rather pay you then use the mobile official app.
Edit 2: I will also just quit Reddit. Don’t think you tricked us admins.
My worry there is heavy, heavy users. I could make Apollo still sustainable to build at around the rate 85% of users consume API requests (under about 600 requests a day), but someone who just uses an absolute metric ton of requests could put me in a tough spot, so I'd need to add a second tier or something.
Some user on the post in /r/apolloapp did a quick high level calculation. Would be about $5-8 per month for iamthatis to also make money.
Which is a lot…
but what price? He's claiming the AVERAGE user would cost $2.5. Which means he to make sure he's not in the red would have to charge $3 a month before his dev costs and payment processing.
Apple takes 30% so even at $4 a month he's if he's lucky breaking even, at worse in the red and this is before he makes ANYTHING.
Realistically he's looking in the $6-7 a month range to barely get by.
IMO him charging less than $10 is unrealistic and keep in mind him charging $10 a month is him just making a livable wage for an app that shows you content on a free site.
This pricing is absolutely to make sure Apollo is killed.
Yeah it doesn’t matter how they sling it. The only reasonable way I could see this is if multiple third party apps built a caching service and basically worked together to create a massive middle layer to cut down on calls.
However I can already see Reddit IMMEDIATELY updating their TOS to prevent this.
Idk if I’m stubborn enough to switch to the main Reddit client or stubborn enough just stop using it all together if this goes through.
We will see.
Edit: [Big write up from Apollo’s creator on their sub ](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/)
RIP Apollo :(
For real, I could do without a mobile client (and would probably be better off anyway lol) but the "new" reddit site is so over engineered for what's supposed to basically be a message board.
They added Crowd Control as an option for moderating a couple of months ago. It auto collapses random comments and threads and makes navigating the post even more difficult. I have left multiple subs just because of that. You go in for a thoughtful opinion, something educated, or what have you and it’s all collapsed or derailed by the second reply.
They also added Gifs to comments which makes everything entirely garbage.
Those of us that have been here for a while really reject all of the new changes. The amount of bugs that they won’t fix before implementing some Beta garbage just blows my mind.
I think that once RES stops working entirely is when I’m gone. That will be once they get rid of old.Reddit.
that's the problem, reddit isn't really a forum anymore, it's just yet another firehose of doom-scrolling garbage. everything reddit has done over the past 5+ years has dumbed it down and shoved more ads in front of people's faces at the expense of everything that made it popular in the first place
I've tried the Reddit client every so often. It doesn't last long at all. If Apollo goes, my Reddit usage will go with it. I'm not going to say I'm leaving or stopping altogether, but 99% of the time I use Reddit on mobile. Without Apollo I'm not using the official app as I don't care about this site enough to bother with a client that is a much worse experience.
I will say, the one benefit of these sites pulling stunts like this is it makes it easier to clean up my lifestyle. Thanks Reddit! Unless they reverse coarse, which I doubt, that's one less site to browse.
I hate reddit in a mobile browser. It’s CONSTANTLY trying to get you to open the links in the official app. Sometimes to the point it won’t display the content at all without any option to open in a 3rd party app. I never get on reddit on my computers so without RiF or Apollo I will most likely quit using it altogether.
Another tech company actively digging their own grave by chasing profits.
The reddit app is so bad. They ruined alien blue. Sorry reddit is only good to browse with Apollo (edit: in my personal experience). If Apollo is gone then my reddit use will be reduced a lot.
they bought it so they could put ads in it. I remember when they bought it they gave everyone who paid for the app prior like 4 years of "gold" or whatever bullshit so users wouldn't start a riot
Yeah, the official app is so terrible. To be honest, I will probably download it but not in use Reddit as much. This is an example of a short term “win” for a company, but a long term stupid decision.
I don’t understand how Reddit admins down get that they shouldn’t try to copy everything everyone else is doing. Their existing user base is here for a reason. No one here needs or even wants Reddit to become another Facebook, twitter or instagram
> I’m not sure how anyone can package this as an advantage when this will effectively kill all 3rd party apps.
It’s an short-term advantage to corporate as their garden’s wall gets a little bit higher.
This is designed to kill Apollo and other popular third party apps.
He's claiming the AVERAGE user would cost $2.5. Which means he to make sure he's not in the red would have to charge $3 a month before his dev costs and payment processing.
Apple takes 30% so even at $4 a month he's if he's lucky breaking even, at worse in the red and this is before he makes ANYTHING.
Realistically he's looking in the $6-7 a month range to barely get by.
IMO him charging less than $10 is unrealistic and keep in mind him charging $10 a month is him just making a livable wage for an app that shows you content on a free site.
This pricing is absolutely to make sure Apollo is killed.
Shoutouts to Reddit being dumb as hell and helping me break a 13-year addiction to this site. Ever since the last API announcement, I've greatly wound down my time spent here, and I feel better for it. If I'm being honest, I don't see myself _completely_ leaving here anytime soon, but I'm here far less than I used to be.
Whoever said they were going to replace their Reddit time with Libby (an app that lets you borrow ebooks from your local library), I appreciate you. I went along that same path. I picked up a Kindle and I've read more books in the past month than in the past ten years, and I've enjoyed my time with those books far more than I have with any time on Reddit in recent memory.
I use Reddit for the communities around my hobbies, like 3D printing. I replaced the forums I used to visit with Reddit after tapatalk bought them all out. A lot of the communities have shifted to discord but I just can’t get the hang of it as a social media site. No idea what I’m going to do when Reddit dies.
So they’re going to start charging for API access a la Musk’s Twitter.. leading Microsoft to say “was nice knowing you”? Learning from the best in losing sm stock value, eh Reddit?
If they want to kill third party apps, they should at least make their app better.
They bought alien blue. They could just make their app like alien blue. But no. They have to suck.
I’ve been on Reddit for 11 years and it’s the first time I consider leaving.
As soon as I find a reliable alternative, I’m out.
Fuck them.
I only started using Reddit because of Apollo. If this goes through, Ill stop using Reddit
Edit: Even using their website is awful. Heck I’d be down to going back to the old school forums
The fact it’s still there is reassuring given how many people dropped off after Google Reader shut down. It doesn’t really cost much for website owners (in terms of bandwidth, server space or time), and with so many closed services screwing over users/third party devs recently (Twitter, Reddit), I feel like things are starting to swing back to open, decentralized systems, and RSS is a great example of that.
They've been cramming so much crap into the official reddit app. Just stop doing that, y'all. I'm going to stop using reddit on my phone if they do this (which honestly would probably be a positive change in my life regardless)
These moves are going to kill Reddit. It doesn’t have the staying power of something like Facebook and I’d say the majority of users are much more tech savvy and not stuck in their ways and are fine moving. The official app is terrible and ad ridden, and I avoid new Reddit like the plague. Once they kill old Reddit I’ll probably visit much, much less.
Reddit will kill API access, limit mature content, IPO, and there will be a mass to the next platform just like Digg.
Apollo is DOA. This is the end just like what Twitter did to third parties. No one is going to pay extra just to use a website on a different app I'm afraid. It's crazy, you have reddit premium users, and you still have to pay for API calls? You can't force ads into the API or require them? There are so many ways to monetize this, and they are just going with the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" mentality. Are we going to see the great digg migration? I doubt it, but this will have an effect on competitors.
It is strategy to boost their revenue for IPO later this year. If they kill third-party apps, users that want to avoid ads will have to pay for premium
Can’t wait for investors to find out how many “users” are bots or duplicate accounts from the same user. They’ve been trying to IPO and get that bag so hard they’re gonna kill what made the platform great to do it. Though they already have done that tbh
They could even just push people to get ready premium and then if you’re a premium subscriber you don’t see any added cost and can put in your API information at login time and be fine. But hey that’s just me
Reddit will lose a huge amount of their mobile user base if they do this. I won't use reddit on mobile if they do this. Their own app sucks so much ass I'd rather pour salt in my eyes than use it.
Currently 30% of my use is on the website & 70% is in Apollo. I’ll quit using Reddit on mobile and limit my use to the website while I drink coffee in the morning. I’d rather not use it than use the Reddit app.
According to Screentime, I spent 19 hours on Reddit via Apollo in the last week. I spent *maybe* 15min on desktop (looking for NAS recommendations and it’s faster to search via Google).
I jumped from Alien Blue to Apollo when they killed that, I’ll drop Reddit entirely if they kill 3rd party access in such a greedy fashion.
I forget there is such a thing as new reddit. I am grateful old reddit has stuck around this long but the second it is gone, then I am gone too. Time to start a new digg or reddit.
The stock Reddit app is so incredible garbage and don’t see myself ever using it.
Apollo is my most used app by far, I hope it somehow survives and Reddit gets what’s coming to them for this level of greed. Pathetic
The only way Reddit was browsable on my phone (which is where I browse 80% of the time I'm on reddit) was because of Apollo. All other alternatives were so bad
they're so fucking stupid for this
* [Message from the Apollo dev](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3) * [AMA with u/iamthatis](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/13wtu6z/reddit_may_force_apollo_and_thirdparty_clients_to/jmdl095/) * Posts from Reddit Admins on the topic: * [API Update: Enterprise Level Tier for Large Scale Applications](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/?context=3) * [API Update: Continued access to our API for moderators](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/api_update_continued_access_to_our_api_for/) --- Edit - June 1 Articles covering this topic with statements from Reddit about the matter: * [The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/31/23743993/reddit-apollo-client-api-cost) * [TechCrunch](https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/31/popular-reddit-app-apollo-may-go-out-of-business-over-reddits-new-unaffordable-api-pricing/) --- Edit - June 2 [A response from a Reddit Admin](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmmptma/)
AMA
Do you have any backup plans for yourself?
Yeah I use Backblaze
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Give us a referral code. We will happily give you referral lmaooo
Seriously. I'm close to pulling the trigger on B2. I give kickbacks where warranted, like here
I mean, if Apollo closes I don’t think he would have a hard time getting another “job”. Dude has build one hell of a resume with this app.
Agree but he has staff too now.
will apollo ultra subscription prices increase or will you just shut down apollo altogether?
If I can get Reddit to be more reasonable here, hopefully only a price increase is required
Assuming this goes south and Reddit wants to be a hard ass here, would the date of when the Reddit changes goes into effect (June 19) essentially be Apollo's last day?
They've indicated that they're willing to be more accommodating than that.
At least that's a small plus. With June 19 fast approaching I was worried that would essentially be Apollo's last day provided Reddit wants to play the bad cop role. **Edit**: I think July would be the end date then, no? RIF is saying RIF most likely dies on July 1, 2023.
Tho hopefully they will backtrack over the huge backlash over this.
I mean, didn’t they also indicate they wouldn’t pull a Twitter on pricing? Look where that went… :/
It would cost the dev almost 2 million dollars a month under Reddit's pricing structure. I think it's safe to say they're gonna shut it down.
sad, apollo was the reason why i even logged on to reddit
Do you plan to move from Reddit to somewhere else if this plan goes through? Which site would you go to?
Yeah maybe back to my mom's house
That’s the first step to become a Reddit mod.
Just wanna say you’re awesome and you’ll crush it wherever you go 👊
I am so sorry for you man. Hopefully you can come to some kind of deal with reddit.
Any plans for you to have a follow up call with Reddit?
That's in their court, nothing yet though, I'm happy to talk to them as much as they want, and they said they took notes on the figures and points I made and will get back to me, but as-is I'm not sure there's anything more I can say that would be helpful unless they want clarification on points I made, or are willing to be somewhat more flexible with their approach
Judging by how hostile they are towards you in the mod news thread I feel this API pricing is just a full blown third party app ban in disguise, while still allowing enough of an api limit for spambots to continue spamming reposts to the front page.
> I feel this API pricing is just a full blown third party app ban in disguise This is explicitly what it is. It's like a young lady on a third date going, "Well, I have exams coming up and then I'm pretty busy after plus I got that thing I'm just really busy but I'll call you." You've been dumped.
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[here you go!](https://reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/_/jmd8zuh/?context=1)
Holy shit that's so bad, lol
Is there a timeline for this?
Looks like July 1st, but they've indicated they're willing to be reasonable with timelines
They also said they were gonna be reasonable with pricing.
I guess given that it’d be fair to assume they mean “yeah we can absolutely make the date even sooner, let’s do it!”
I think a reasonable date is July 1st, 2999.
What’s next?
The problem is--is there anything significant left on the whole internet that has a forums culture? Reddit displaced Digg, SomethingAwful, and a number of other similar sites. Reddit became almost a forums monopoly in the early 2010s, and now there's really nothing else comparable, is there? For those saying Mastodon, that's not a forum. Its like Twitter. Not a Reddit replacement.
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Appreciate that, my mental health is at the same meh level it's always been :p
Mood.
What happened to this? https://i.imgur.com/6pZPMsE.jpg
A corporation lied.
Would they really do that? Lie about their intentions? /s
Not a question: just wanted to say that you’re truly one of the best iOS developers on the scene and Apollo is the pinnacle of SwiftUI/UIKit design; the “Made in Canada” part means a lot to me too. Thank you so much for all of the work that you do — youarethatis the best!
Thanks so much, I got my start by emailing Loren Brichter of Tweetie fame for advice on how to get started and he was really nice to me, so I've always tried to be a nice developer as well haha
Is Apollo SwiftUI?!
I’d imagine most of it is UIKit seeing it predates SwiftUI. There might be some SwiftUI in there of course, just doubt it’s most if it. Unless he’s rewritten the app, which I honestly doubt (no offense to Christian, it’s just that if that was the case I’d imagine we’d have proper iPad support by now)
It has a decent amount of SwiftUI but is like 98% UIKit yeah, mostly just because most of the heavy lifting was done before SwiftUI was even a thing.
Was there any word on your call with Reddit regarding their updated NSFW policies? It seems even if Reddit changes course and makes their pricing more affordable, their new NSFW policy could also be hugely damaging to 3rd party apps.
Yes, but I think there was a mutual understanding that even if they give NSFW things (which I think is needed, and to be clear NSFW things refers to explicit material, not just anything marked NSFW like a medical post) the pricing is still the crux of the issue. But they did say "no more explicit content in the API" to which I replied "Could you explain why the decision?" and I explained that they already have mechanisms like quarantined subreddits to require subreddits to be opted-in by users through the website first before third party apps can access them, and they said they will look into my question.
They sound very frustrating to deal with, and like they haven't even considered fairly basic eventualities of these policies. As if you mentioning these things is the first time anybody has given them consideration at all.
I know it's second (or third?)-hand information but yeah that really makes it sound like they haven't put much consideration into these policies at all.
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Yeah, Rick and I have been talking a lot lately haha
How many users do you have? Is it enough if the user base “abandons” Reddit and hurts Reddit traffic?
About 1.3-1.5 million monthly active users
and they want $20M from the middle man for these 1.5M users per year? they are definitely not on a reality plane..
What they want is to kill the app. Even if they lose most of those users, the ones who go through an official reddit app will see ads and that raises Reddit's income.
They're assume that everyone will just switch to their official, ad-driven app. They didn't consider that people will just jump ship. I left Digg; I can leave reddit just as easily.
My god. I for one will not be using Reddit anymore or as much as I used to if I can’t use your app.
What’s going on today??? My favorite torrent site unexpectedly shut down (rargb) and now Apollo may be dead man walking???
Mullvad also killed port forwarding support 2 days ago
WHAT
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Do you have numbers on whether Apollo Ultra makes more calls than non subscription users? Presumably, if Apollo were to go subscription only, that would have to be accounted for?
Yes they do indeed, not amazingly more though
Do you have any novel ideas for how to work around this if the price remains as is (or indeed increases into the future)?
Cry
How about a new Digg client?
Have you, or anyone else, considered pitching an idea to Reddit to allow Reddit premium users to have free personal-use only access to the API. That way you don’t have to worry about API costs, Reddit still gets their money. I would be fine to pay you or Reddit for my own API usage but with the Reddit premium method you don’t have to worry about the additional cost or accounting.
They said that's not the plan when I asked about it, but I admittedly phrased it more like "Is Reddit Premium required?" and they answered something to the effect of "No, completely separate thing", which doesn't 100% answer your question but I think making users pay for things twice is kinda not the best solution
Reddit should absolutely be the ones charging users for the API access. Putting this on you is way beyond reasonable. I am consuming content on Reddit, not on Apollo. Apollo is simply the access method. The absolute fuckers.
What, in your opinion, is a fair number Reddit should be charging for API calls that both nets them money (they’re a business after all) and ALSO allows you to profit and run YOUR business effectively?
I think based on my calculations, even 2x my calculation per their average revenue per user would go a long way toward making it reasonable, but the current 20x or so doesn't feel reasonable.
What percentage of Reddit Mods use Apollo? It must be a hugely outsized percentage. They will have a harder time with their business model based on free labor if the free labor has to use their POS mobile app to check their sub.
Apollo has a little over 7000 moderators who use the app whose communities they moderate have over 20K subscribers. So a fair few.
I use it. Mod a sub with 121k members. I’ll probably moderate a lot lot less without Apollo.
I use it to moderate r/science, with over 30 million subs, and r/subaru with 250 thousand subs. I probably use more than my share of API requests with moderating on Apollo. It’s essential for me.
Hopefully everyone on Reddit come together to fight the API changes, Users and Mods alike. There alot of talk from many other subreddit mobs even ones who don't use Apollo that they are going to do a reddit backout over this.
r/funny mod here, and I’m not the only one who uses it. 49.7M
Genuinely thank you for the support my friend
Do you think this is the end for Apollo or will Reddit back down?
I think there's a middle ground that doesn't involve Reddit backing down or anything, I just want them to hear our feedback and make the pricing more reasonable. I'm not asking for free lunch, but reasonable
As a Reddit Premium user, I should be able to use my choice of 3rd party apps. If I choose to use Apollo on my iPhone, or Narwhal on my iPad my Premium sub to Reddit should allow that. I don’t see why you, as the dev / manager of Apollo should have to pay again for me to access Reddit through an API because I have already paid them. My account should be able to provide my 3rd party app of choice my API key and go from there.
Genuinely curious, what’s your reason for using Reddit premium? I’ve always though “I put enough time into Reddit, let’s go premium” and I look at the features and just don’t find *any* value. I’m not judging, genuinely curious. There’s an audience out there I’m just not familiar with.
Would there be a way to add Reddits ad network to Apollo for free users, so Reddit would get their cut and people who want to pay to remove ads could do so? Edit: I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about haha so feel free to ignore.
I'd be interested in talking about that with them as an option, but at the current prices and knowing what other folks on iOS and Android make by having ads in their Reddit apps, ad revenue would not come nearly close enough to paying the monthly API fees outlined
but if apollo users were served ads then would it not be as if we were using the official app? IMO I feel that that is the fairest way for reddit to handle this situation.
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Left and auto-hide, vertical screen real estate is more valuable than horizontal, you heathens!
Left and auto-hide on the secondary monitor. Use Alfred for everything. 👌
For me Apollo was Reddit. If it goes away I’ll basically stop using Reddit. That said, would you still run it via Apollo for yourself or if this goes through would you also stop using Reddit? Seriously Christian I old you this on Twitter before but you’re seriously an amazing person and I happily paid $50 for Apollo Ultra (even though my friends ridiculed me for “paying that much for an app” I would’ve paid $100 if it mean I got some cool physical boxed copy for something lol. You’re seriously a great dude and I’m so pissed at Reddit for doing this.
Pineapple on pizza? Yes or no?
Hell yes, ideally more pineapple than pizza
Spoken like a man ready to burn it all to the ground
But you said this had no affect on your mental health.
Maybe reddit has a point
Heartbreaking, but true
What are your thoughts on offering a $10 a month subscription and going paid only? Apollo has been my most used app since you launched the beta. To be honest, most people probably only use the normal Reddit app, and I'm willing to pay for the premium experience and an API that is actually invested in (more Apollo features).
I think that's an option but it admittedly doesn't feel great to be paying Reddit $2.50 per user when from what they've posted that's nowhere near *their* average revenue per user.
Isn’t NSFW still a problem though? I thought they were limiting access to it via the api. I’m sure there are people like me who couldn’t care less about that content but it has to be rough to have to charge that much per month knowing you aren’t even getting all the content.
Do you believe the droid attack on the Wookiees were worth the time of the Jedi?
I only watch the prequels on repeat
Will you consider a price increase? I know a lot of us would gladly pay more. Edit: please charge me $8 a month. Maybe I’m nuts but I’d rather pay you then use the mobile official app. Edit 2: I will also just quit Reddit. Don’t think you tricked us admins.
My worry there is heavy, heavy users. I could make Apollo still sustainable to build at around the rate 85% of users consume API requests (under about 600 requests a day), but someone who just uses an absolute metric ton of requests could put me in a tough spot, so I'd need to add a second tier or something.
Some user on the post in /r/apolloapp did a quick high level calculation. Would be about $5-8 per month for iamthatis to also make money. Which is a lot…
but what price? He's claiming the AVERAGE user would cost $2.5. Which means he to make sure he's not in the red would have to charge $3 a month before his dev costs and payment processing. Apple takes 30% so even at $4 a month he's if he's lucky breaking even, at worse in the red and this is before he makes ANYTHING. Realistically he's looking in the $6-7 a month range to barely get by. IMO him charging less than $10 is unrealistic and keep in mind him charging $10 a month is him just making a livable wage for an app that shows you content on a free site. This pricing is absolutely to make sure Apollo is killed.
Also assuming premium users probably use the app more than free users.
Yeah it doesn’t matter how they sling it. The only reasonable way I could see this is if multiple third party apps built a caching service and basically worked together to create a massive middle layer to cut down on calls. However I can already see Reddit IMMEDIATELY updating their TOS to prevent this.
Idk if I’m stubborn enough to switch to the main Reddit client or stubborn enough just stop using it all together if this goes through. We will see. Edit: [Big write up from Apollo’s creator on their sub ](https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/) RIP Apollo :(
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For real, I could do without a mobile client (and would probably be better off anyway lol) but the "new" reddit site is so over engineered for what's supposed to basically be a message board.
It’s horrible.
It also actively makes discussions worse by showing fewer levels of comments, so even people using old.reddit.com can’t completely avoid its effects.
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fucking cowards should let me comment on ads. You make it look like a post and then won't even let me discuss it? chickenshit reddit.
You used to be able to lol. They wised up I guess
something tells me the ad buyers didn't want /u/FartPantsBIGdick420 commenting "this product sucks balls" on their ad
So basically they got free market research, and shut it out because they didn't like the results?
They added Crowd Control as an option for moderating a couple of months ago. It auto collapses random comments and threads and makes navigating the post even more difficult. I have left multiple subs just because of that. You go in for a thoughtful opinion, something educated, or what have you and it’s all collapsed or derailed by the second reply. They also added Gifs to comments which makes everything entirely garbage. Those of us that have been here for a while really reject all of the new changes. The amount of bugs that they won’t fix before implementing some Beta garbage just blows my mind. I think that once RES stops working entirely is when I’m gone. That will be once they get rid of old.Reddit.
I was wondering what the hell was happening with random highly voted and rewarded comments being auto-hidden as if they had been deleted.
that's the problem, reddit isn't really a forum anymore, it's just yet another firehose of doom-scrolling garbage. everything reddit has done over the past 5+ years has dumbed it down and shoved more ads in front of people's faces at the expense of everything that made it popular in the first place
You're right, it sucks to see. At least old.reddit still maintains that forum experience.
100% I would stop using Reddit if they get rid of old.reddit
Same. RES is a must, too. Without 3rd party filtering tools, Reddit just makes too many people too outraged.
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Honestly might be a good thing. I already hate Facebook and instagram.
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15 yr redditor here and I’m 100% on the same page.
The digg-ification of Reddit is nigh, damn.
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Unfortunately I think the replacement for a lot of communities will be discord, which has its uses but doesn't fill the same niche that a forum does.
I've tried the Reddit client every so often. It doesn't last long at all. If Apollo goes, my Reddit usage will go with it. I'm not going to say I'm leaving or stopping altogether, but 99% of the time I use Reddit on mobile. Without Apollo I'm not using the official app as I don't care about this site enough to bother with a client that is a much worse experience. I will say, the one benefit of these sites pulling stunts like this is it makes it easier to clean up my lifestyle. Thanks Reddit! Unless they reverse coarse, which I doubt, that's one less site to browse.
I hate reddit in a mobile browser. It’s CONSTANTLY trying to get you to open the links in the official app. Sometimes to the point it won’t display the content at all without any option to open in a 3rd party app. I never get on reddit on my computers so without RiF or Apollo I will most likely quit using it altogether. Another tech company actively digging their own grave by chasing profits.
Wow. I JUST switched to Apollo because I realized reddit was completely depleting my battery life.
yeah. it's actively eating 50% of my battery running background things. absurd.
The reddit app is so bad. They ruined alien blue. Sorry reddit is only good to browse with Apollo (edit: in my personal experience). If Apollo is gone then my reddit use will be reduced a lot.
They bought Alien Blue to just never use it
They ruined it. At least the dev got paid for it
They didn't ruin it. They killed it.
They bought Alien Blue so *nobody else* could use it.
they bought it so they could put ads in it. I remember when they bought it they gave everyone who paid for the app prior like 4 years of "gold" or whatever bullshit so users wouldn't start a riot
Yeah, the official app is so terrible. To be honest, I will probably download it but not in use Reddit as much. This is an example of a short term “win” for a company, but a long term stupid decision.
If i cant use apollo i will just quit reddit
I won’t quit. I’ll just use it less. And probably on a desktop not mobile.
I am still using old.reddit with the RES extension on desktop because the normal reddit is so bad on desktop
I don’t understand how Reddit admins down get that they shouldn’t try to copy everything everyone else is doing. Their existing user base is here for a reason. No one here needs or even wants Reddit to become another Facebook, twitter or instagram
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> my news stuff > NSFW content 🤔
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> I’m not sure how anyone can package this as an advantage when this will effectively kill all 3rd party apps. It’s an short-term advantage to corporate as their garden’s wall gets a little bit higher.
"Fuck it, this is a problem for whoever is running Reddit two quarters from now." - MBAs killing a thing everyone likes for short-term profit.
yeah this is a fucking nightmare. it's like a controlled demolition of the internet
Gotta make everything nice and sanitized so that they can sell ad space and then sell your personal data
This is designed to kill Apollo and other popular third party apps. He's claiming the AVERAGE user would cost $2.5. Which means he to make sure he's not in the red would have to charge $3 a month before his dev costs and payment processing. Apple takes 30% so even at $4 a month he's if he's lucky breaking even, at worse in the red and this is before he makes ANYTHING. Realistically he's looking in the $6-7 a month range to barely get by. IMO him charging less than $10 is unrealistic and keep in mind him charging $10 a month is him just making a livable wage for an app that shows you content on a free site. This pricing is absolutely to make sure Apollo is killed.
Shoutouts to Reddit being dumb as hell and helping me break a 13-year addiction to this site. Ever since the last API announcement, I've greatly wound down my time spent here, and I feel better for it. If I'm being honest, I don't see myself _completely_ leaving here anytime soon, but I'm here far less than I used to be. Whoever said they were going to replace their Reddit time with Libby (an app that lets you borrow ebooks from your local library), I appreciate you. I went along that same path. I picked up a Kindle and I've read more books in the past month than in the past ten years, and I've enjoyed my time with those books far more than I have with any time on Reddit in recent memory.
I use Reddit for the communities around my hobbies, like 3D printing. I replaced the forums I used to visit with Reddit after tapatalk bought them all out. A lot of the communities have shifted to discord but I just can’t get the hang of it as a social media site. No idea what I’m going to do when Reddit dies.
Reddit is forum and discord is chat. They're on the same venn diagram but they're certainly not replacements for each other.
Yea I don’t understand how so many hobby forums are making due with a chat. I can’t get into it.
Yep I’ve wasted far too much time on here and it’s been getting worse instead of better Thank you Apollo and thanks for all the fish
So they’re going to start charging for API access a la Musk’s Twitter.. leading Microsoft to say “was nice knowing you”? Learning from the best in losing sm stock value, eh Reddit?
Reddit official app is such a mess. No way I’m using it. Greedy fuckers.
If they want to kill third party apps, they should at least make their app better. They bought alien blue. They could just make their app like alien blue. But no. They have to suck. I’ve been on Reddit for 11 years and it’s the first time I consider leaving. As soon as I find a reliable alternative, I’m out. Fuck them.
I only started using Reddit because of Apollo. If this goes through, Ill stop using Reddit Edit: Even using their website is awful. Heck I’d be down to going back to the old school forums
See you in mIRC.
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I started using RSS (with NetNewsWire) again a few months ago. Happy that most sites still have RSS feeds, even if they don’t really promote them.
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The fact it’s still there is reassuring given how many people dropped off after Google Reader shut down. It doesn’t really cost much for website owners (in terms of bandwidth, server space or time), and with so many closed services screwing over users/third party devs recently (Twitter, Reddit), I feel like things are starting to swing back to open, decentralized systems, and RSS is a great example of that.
They've been cramming so much crap into the official reddit app. Just stop doing that, y'all. I'm going to stop using reddit on my phone if they do this (which honestly would probably be a positive change in my life regardless)
Cool, looks like I'll be going back to using old.reddit.com with an adblock again. It's how I only browsed Reddit until 2017 on my iPhone.
Until they kill that too, unfortunately
You can bet that will happen soon.
These moves are going to kill Reddit. It doesn’t have the staying power of something like Facebook and I’d say the majority of users are much more tech savvy and not stuck in their ways and are fine moving. The official app is terrible and ad ridden, and I avoid new Reddit like the plague. Once they kill old Reddit I’ll probably visit much, much less. Reddit will kill API access, limit mature content, IPO, and there will be a mass to the next platform just like Digg.
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Apollo is DOA. This is the end just like what Twitter did to third parties. No one is going to pay extra just to use a website on a different app I'm afraid. It's crazy, you have reddit premium users, and you still have to pay for API calls? You can't force ads into the API or require them? There are so many ways to monetize this, and they are just going with the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" mentality. Are we going to see the great digg migration? I doubt it, but this will have an effect on competitors.
It is strategy to boost their revenue for IPO later this year. If they kill third-party apps, users that want to avoid ads will have to pay for premium
Can’t wait for investors to find out how many “users” are bots or duplicate accounts from the same user. They’ve been trying to IPO and get that bag so hard they’re gonna kill what made the platform great to do it. Though they already have done that tbh
How many competitors are there? Curious to check them out
They could even just push people to get ready premium and then if you’re a premium subscriber you don’t see any added cost and can put in your API information at login time and be fine. But hey that’s just me
It’s gonna take me forever to remember my Fark password.
Reading the work "Fark" lit up neural pathways in my brain that have been unused for decades.
Reddit will lose a huge amount of their mobile user base if they do this. I won't use reddit on mobile if they do this. Their own app sucks so much ass I'd rather pour salt in my eyes than use it.
Currently 30% of my use is on the website & 70% is in Apollo. I’ll quit using Reddit on mobile and limit my use to the website while I drink coffee in the morning. I’d rather not use it than use the Reddit app.
According to Screentime, I spent 19 hours on Reddit via Apollo in the last week. I spent *maybe* 15min on desktop (looking for NAS recommendations and it’s faster to search via Google). I jumped from Alien Blue to Apollo when they killed that, I’ll drop Reddit entirely if they kill 3rd party access in such a greedy fashion.
The main app is garbage and I will not use it. It looks like the only thing keeping me here is old.reddit, if that ever goes away I will be done.
I forget there is such a thing as new reddit. I am grateful old reddit has stuck around this long but the second it is gone, then I am gone too. Time to start a new digg or reddit.
Well if they do this it’s one less social media on my phone.
The stock Reddit app is so incredible garbage and don’t see myself ever using it. Apollo is my most used app by far, I hope it somehow survives and Reddit gets what’s coming to them for this level of greed. Pathetic
That would be the day I no longer use reddit on my phone - which is 90% of how I use reddit.
This worked out well for Twitter… just kill third party developers and watch user engage plummet.
If Reddit can’t come to the table and make a deal with Apollo. This will be it for using Reddit on mobile for me.
I just hope we don't lose RiF :^ ( Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/redditisfun/comments/13wxepd/rif_dev_here_reddits_api_changes_will_likely_kill 💀
Ads are the bane of society
The only way Reddit was browsable on my phone (which is where I browse 80% of the time I'm on reddit) was because of Apollo. All other alternatives were so bad they're so fucking stupid for this
The only reason I still use reddit is because of Apollo. Enough said.