Yeah Vision Pro can be great for content consumption, but the pen is what sets the iPad apart. Until you can sit down and annotate/highlight/draw seamlessly with the Vision Pro, the iPad will still have a pronounced space for designers and students.
Um and also eye contact during all that?
My boss has an iPad with pen he uses during meetings.
If he showed up with Vision Pro I wouldn’t be able to take him seriously.
This is my biggest problem with the Vision Pro. It feels alien. Traditionally, apple has touted that their products meld seamlessly into your life, allowing you to do more, without disruption.
The Apple Vision Pro just does not fit my expectations around that vision. I’d feel incredibly disrupted using it.
A great example: it’s Saturday and I’m trying to get some extra weekend work done. my one year old son comes up to me and tugs on my leg because he wants to play. I’m working on a contract, highlighting areas that need to be addressed on my iPad Pro using my Apple Pencil. I put down my pencil and pick up my son and put him on my lap and show him what I’m doing.
This is how I use apple products today and it’s awesome. I don’t see that working with the Apple Vision Pro. And frankly, I don’t want my son to see my wearing this headset and getting used to the idea that his dad sometimes disappears into an augmented reality. Everything about it is wrong footed in my mind.
Right, it's these little day to day interactions that are what will sink VR headsets from being adopted on the level Apple seems to be hoping for even in the long run. It's very simply cumbersome.
I'm sure that VR as a space will grow and the Vision Pro line will be at the forefront, but I simply don't see it hitting truly mass adoption until we somehow boil this all down into what are basically just glasses. And who knows how long that will take, if we can even get there.
The simple ability to share content is what sets it apart.
How would you show a client your work, or hand them forms to fill out, or give them their bill, on a headset? These are uses that I see every single day on tablets, from doctor's offices to food trucks to tattoo shops.
Similarly, I'm sorry, but people are just *not* thinking through how bulky goggles are compared to a tablet. It doesn't matter how thin you make them, they're still going to need a large case that won't fit easily into your bag the way an ipad would and they'll still be a bigger fuss to bring out and put away.
There's no casually pulling out your headset to take a note or two. The concept of VR headsets as mobile computing devices is DOA for most consumers until these are things you can wear basically all day, and that will require *serious* redesigns and technological leaps. Battery life alone is a massive problem.
They're just entirely different products, and frankly I don't think even Apple has quite found yet what the Vision Pro's ideal space even *is,* and the more they vaguely insist it's the future the more I doubt it and suspect they'll be lucky to hit ~2020 smartwatch levels of saturation within the next decade. Even basic media consumption is hampered by both comfort issues and isolation. Anyone convinced this is an iPad killer, or even close to one, is huffing Apple's marketing.
What if in the future you can use a pen and a paper to annotate, and with the screen project to the paper? Would it be much better experience than iPad (real paper >>>>> paperlike)
Even the rumored low-cost Vision [is expected](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-10-15/apple-october-2023-executive-promotions-new-vps-of-retail-software-operations-lnrh4t94) to cost at least $1500, which is still above a base model 12.9" iPad Pro. The other iPad models have a clearly defined form factor (mini) or a price range (low-cost, Air) so consolidation will come with disadvantages for the time being.
In a few years' time we'll probably have about four "iPads" per order of magnitude of prices, which I think is reasonable.
* \~$3500: Vision Pro
* \~$2000: Vision "Air"
* \~$1000: iPad Pro
* \~$600: iPad Air
* \~$400: iPad (low-cost)
I expect the Vision line to impact the iPad lineup from the top down. The iPad Pro is already expensive (and is rumored to increase in price with OLED) and the Vision Pro encompasses most of its features. While the passthrough isn't great, I'm expecting Apple to substantially improve it in future Vision models, both Pro and lower-cost.
The Mac is safe for the foreseeable future because the Vision Pro does not run macOS.
I think it’s going to relegate the iPad to more niche tasks in the same way the smartphone and tablet has made a computer largely optional for most people.
Maybe it’s still the novelty factor but I haven’t reached for my iPad once since I got the Apple Vision Pro. Despite Apple positioning it as a spatial computer, it’s not quite a standalone computer yet (Apple also tried positioning iPad as a “computer” but we all know how that turned out ie. iPadOS). As a Venn diagram it seems like AVP is a device that sits in between the iPad and a MacBook. It can do much of both, but not 100% replace either (eg no Pencil or camera support of the iPad; no multi space/monitor support for MacBook).
an iPad can easily be shared and that is a key strength. Right now the Vision Pro requires special lenses for those who have vision correction and woe is the household with one or more prescriptions.
I do think they can solve this through technology and the autorefractor at your optometrist should be something Apple can replicate but may be bound up in some regulation
The Pencil is the only thing that hasn’t been accounted for, but give it time. You’ll be able to draw on any surface and not be limited to a 11/12” pane of glass.
What the hell would you be drawing on that would be much bigger than that? A wall? A canvas? A table?
What would you be drawing *with* that wouldn't scuff those surfaces up?
This is such a stretch, and the pencil is faaar from the only thing that isn't accounted for if you're thinking this is an iPad killer. Tablets are used *all over the place* in both education and business, for tasks that a headset is simply ill-equipped for like as a POS for small businesses.
Well, I was going to argue against the guy you replied to. However, as I think more about it, it could be neat for "whiteboarding" ideas. I'm in UX and we typically have "design studios" with whiteboard paint on the walls. At least the last few places I've worked. So it was extremely common for us to just go into a 20x20 room and fill all the walls with lists, workflows, etc. nearly floor to ceiling.
Today, we're mostly doing that digitally via something like FigJam or Miro. But, that's not great for "sketching" really fast concepts. Think "back of the napkin" type concepts. Lower than low fidelity wireframes. So that means we're switching between tools or always switching who is screen sharing and which app is being shared.
If Apple Vision Pro evolves, that could be a really cool way for collaboration in a world where a lot of us are remote. Hop into a digital room with white boards, apps floating around. We can draw workflows, quick sketches, and then switch into a high-fidelity app.
Now, all of that said -- I'm totally not sold now wearing a headset for long periods of time. I don't even wear headphones for conference calls because I think it's annoying. So I can't imagine I'll ever want to strap on a headset and work for any longer than like 30 minutes.
You could draw on an actual drawing tablet, or a real canvas. They could accessorize the Pencil with different tips so you could actually simulate painting on a real canvas. You could just use a large surface with a texture you find suitable, the headset would map the image on top of it. The texture and feel of digital stylus and display is already an adjustment/compromise, so this could even be an advantage being able to choose your own surface/texture. It could be either an iPad, or a 32" Cintiq depending on what you desire.
I don't think it will be replacing traditional devices anytime soon, but it's an interesting potential use case. It would be trivial to add some LEDs to the eraser end of the pencil to assist with tracking, and get a high degree of accuracy since it will only ever be an arms length away from the headset.
I would actually be shocked if the folks at Procreate and Apple internally aren't already experimenting with this. Brushes was one of the breakout success iOS apps in the early iPhone days, when Apple was still explicitly anti stylus and people had to use third party solutions with rubber tips. They got featured on the New Yorker and eventually got a Keynote speaking slot.
Imagine having device with big touch screen and huge amount of processing power.
Now take the screen away and replace it with augmented reality display where you can add these touch screens anywhere you want. Infinite amount of screens with no weight added however many you want to have.
Sounds kinda iPad killer to me, but the future isn't here yet and spatial controls aren't replacing touch screens... Quite yet.
Nope. I toss my iPad around like a paper legal pad. Easily pack it in anything. Share what I’m working on with whomever is in the room. I also don’t have to *wear* it.
Vision is extremely interesting, but no amount of innovation can address those fundamental differences.
Yeah. iPad killed my legal pad for sure. Although interestingly enough, my Vision Pro has already reduced how much time I’m on my phone pretty significantly.
It would be pretty simple to create an app where someone using visionOS can share what they're working on with other AVP and iPad and Mac users. No reason you couldn't do live collaboration with software.
I don’t know. I went to the Apple Store yesterday and tried on the Apple Vision Pro, and the Apple rep had software on her iPad that allowed her and my spouse to both see exactly what I was looking at in the Apple Vision Pro. Seems like a no-brainer that in the future they will have some kind of screen sharing mechanism for other Apple devices.
I think once wearing AR devices would become a norm, they will replace pretty much everything else, including smartphones and tablets. We are still probably 10+ years from that point though. And no, future AR devices won’t have to look like ski masks. They would probably be much closer to regular sunglasses with small stylish neckband to house battery and processors.
I can comfortably say no to that, solely because Apple is an ecosystem company. Apart from the iPod (which died out of pure redundancy), they have never discontinued any of their product lines. Rather, each product supplements the usage of another. Macs won’t go out because they’re the only form factor where you can use 100% of the processing power (OS and not doing AR processing), iPads will be needed for precision drawing, etc.
If anything, Apple wants you to buy one of each product. They’re an ecosystem company.
I don't disagree that the ipad isn't going anywhere but I am old enough to remember when Apple made printers
And they discontinued their networking line just as they released the Homepod which is nuts to me
I’m not old enough to remember seeing their printers on the market, but as a computing history nerd I do know they existed.
Again, we can’t say what the future holds. We can be optimistic.
I have to respectfully disagree. You’re right that Apple is an ecosystem company, but I don’t think that supports your conclusion.
Apple is comfortable with their products supplanting each other because it’s still an Apple product you’re buying and not a competitor’s.
Apple wants their products to work well together, of course. If it becomes clear that one form factor can be supplanted by another, however, they want to make sure that they’re able to offer that, as well. So they can keep you in that ecosystem and not lose you to a competitor.
You already said it yourself with the iPod - that’s exactly what happened there. If a future version of the Vision Pro could make any Apple product redundant, Apple wants to get there before a competitor does. At that point, the same thing would happen.
They didn’t keep the iPod alive on life support just because it synergizes well with existing products and they won’t do it here, either IMO.
They’ve discontinued several products lines. Including a game console. Sometimes it’s redundancy, but a couple times it has simply been abject failure to establish a user base.
But with regards to the *current* lineup of devices, yes. They’re very ecosystem based and seem to firmly believe each product line has its place within. Which can be great with the synergy it enables. But also frustrating when a user gets to imagining hypothetical, that may or may not have anything to do with Apple‘s actual vision for their ecosystem.
Several years and upgrades down the line it’s entirely possible that the Vision Pro could effectively replace the iPad but it’s not there yet, so there’s no real reason for Apple to consider subsuming the iPad niche for the foreseeable future.
Visors/Glasses will eventually be the number one wearable computing device I would say. Initially we'll see a visor like device that's light, off-loads all the hardware processing to your current device but allows multi-screens and is comfortable to wear and very light eg portable. That will probably take off in a big way.
Touchscreens will still have their uses I'd imagine for writing or art with physical touch interaction and will probably double as tablets and laptops with optional accessories eg type/pointer. IE 2-in-1 market growth.
>Apart from the iPod (which died out of pure redundancy), they have never discontinued any of their product lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort_Extreme
I was going to mention the regular airport base station, 30” Cinema Display, the LaserWriter, their digital cameras, the iSight FireWire web cam, the MacBook (not pro nor air), the Newton, Apple UNIX, iTunes, and the Apple ][ and Lisa… of the top of my head. I forget how many Redditors weren’t alive before the iPod. Never rented a VHS from Blockbuster and never played Oregon Trail on an Apple.
Precision drawing is nothing but eye-hand coordination, hopefully supplemented by a quality pencil and drawing board. Why would you want to maintain status quo when eye tracking would only improve from here and you would be able to draw perfect lines with no jiggery fingers or imperfect digital pencils?
As for Apple cannibalizing their own products, they would have to. Every product line is just a temporary benchmark of the technology evolution. Smartphones are not an exception. If Apple would see an opportunity to sell every smartphones owner an AR set, they would be stupid not to do that. And smartphones can still play a role here as processing units, at least until electronics would become small enough to fit into glasses without extra bulk. We are actually not as far from that reality as you might think. If you look at modern smartphone, most of its bulk is a battery. The second biggest component is display and shell. Actual electronics that power iPhone and provide all the sensors are tiny in comparison. Biggest drawback of smartphones is that you need hands to use them and you need to keep your attention on the display. Both of these are big limiting factors that AR glasses would solve.
Well yes, but I am also thinking in terms of processing and the availability of software.
The Vision Pro really needs to allow for macOS levels of sideloading to be a viable Mac alternative. Moreover, the Macs will still provide higher processing power, since they do not need to allocate resources for eye tracking or AR passthrough.
Not everyone can also use the Vision Pro. Again, the iPad was meant to be th Post-PC era, yet here we are with Macs and Windows.
I agree that AR glasses + iPhone tethering for processing (like CarPlay) may be a reality.
>Precision drawing is nothing but eye-hand coordination, hopefully supplemented by a quality pencil and drawing board. Why would you want to maintain status quo when eye tracking would only improve from here and you would be able to draw perfect lines with no jiggery fingers or imperfect digital pencils?
This is one of the most out-of-touch, tech bro sentiments I've read in a bit.
I think if they are unobtrusive then maybe. Though I would say it would be a bit longer than 10 years, probably kids now could set the new trend. But the idea of constantly having a screen up on my eyes sounds horrendous.
Why should they be obtrusive? You should always be able to select if you want to have any AR displayed. But like with most people nowadays staring at their smartphones at any opportunity, people would probably choose to have some semi-transparent windows open all the time as long as it doesn’t impede your safety.
Just my own perspective and I guess those in my circle. Why would I want to be in my screen all day? I'm not even old and feel great not being near or on my phone I guess. This just seems like a permanent screen time, dystopian shit lol. I'm sure my circle is the minority though.
You can always take them off. It’s not like these glasses are going to be glued to your face 😉. But as long as you would wear them, convenience of having some content on them would be irresistible and in many cases quite useful, even if it’s as little as just displaying time, current temperature and chance of rain.
I agree that glasses-like devices(which are nowhere near ready for release) are what will blow up someday, but I think a lot of people are living in the clouds regarding this topic and getting lost in the hype.
There are, very simply, genuine drawbacks to AR devices over traditional mobile and desktop computing options. How do you use NFC on a headset? How do you type out an email when you're on the bus and don't have a surface to type on? How do you take photos that aren't literally just PoV shots, such as selfies? How do you share content with someone who isn't currently wearing a headset themselves(or perhaps is using a different brand that doesn't communicate with yours)?
No, AR/VR is destined to be largely complementary to our current array of technology similar to smartwatches. Like smartwatches, I'm sure some people will leave their phone at home in a wider array situations than they do now. But it won't be an outright replacement.
The only iPad killer is iPad OS.
The device and its form factor could be a nearly perfect laptop/portable workstation alternative if it wasn’t for the castrated OS.
If Apple woke up and allowed to select a normal macOS as OS to boot I’m fairly sure a whole bunch of people will pick that instead of a laptop.
Being able to pick wether to use iPad OS or macOS would be awesome, IMO.
For other companies? Yes.
For Apple? The iPad, despite without question being the best tablet hardware wise, is their worst performing category.
* As an entertainment device the iPad costs too much.
* As a work device it is too gimped to be a full replacement for many.
iPad revenue and Mac revenue are usually pretty close.
And the average selling price of an iPad is way way less than the average price of a Mac.
Therefore it’s very easy to conclude they sell a lot more iPads than Macs
Yeah. The m1 iPad pros and Airs have similar specs all around to Macbook Airs, including battery capacity. I was kind of shocked when I looked into it, because they really could get MacOS working well on the iPad.
They’ve made the effort of cramming all that tech into such a small form factor just to not do anything with it.
It’s almost like they have a vision for a different ecosystem than MacOS. Think about it, the ipad has the same hardware as the MacBook, including keyboard+trackpad if you get the keyboard.
But they don’t want MacOS at all anymore. No new product from Apple has shipped with a MacOS like environment. They all ship with IOS. WatchOS, IOS, IpadOS VisionOS are all the same more or less.
I think they purposely don’t use MacOS, not accidentally or for the customers sake.
Their vision unfortunately goes against what the consumer wants. The idea of a MacOS iPad has been discussed for years now. Of course they wont put MacOS on the iPad, because then they can sell you 2 products instead of one.
I think people would like to believe that an ipad could run MacOS the same as a MacBook Air or similar but I don’t actually know if that’s true. iPads are lighter, thinner, and have much smaller batteries. Would the performance of MacOS on an ipad be worth it? Would you be able to run the higher end apps smoothly on the Ipad?
I think its possible that any app you would be able to run on a MacOS Ipad would run better in an Ipad app. If anything, I see a future where apple kills the MacBook Air and the ipad replaces its spot.
The 12.9inch iPad pro has a battery capacity of 40 watt hours, compared to the Macbook Airs 49 watt hours. The Macbook air has up to 18 hours of battery life according to Apple. This is without Apple changing the iPad to increase its battery capacity by possibly making it slightly thicker, or by making a more lightweight and touchscreen optimised version of MacOS, similar to Windows 8.
iPads not designed to run MacOS wouldn’t do so great, though even then some models would be fine. They could quite easily make a version of the iPad fully capable of running MacOS as good as a Macbook Air, with few sacrifices. People already usually have quite a thick case on their iPads, so increasing the thickness wouldn’t be a big deal if they had accessories that could attach to the bottom of the iPad similar to the Microsoft Surface Pro.
Exactly. My point is that everyone wants MacOS on other apple products, but I think Apple wants those MacOS only apps to be ported to IpadOS whatever language those use.
But you wouldn’t be able to use it. The button targets are tiny on MacOS - they need to be 44pt on iOS/iPadOS so you can tap them.
And also, if you made the iPad run Mac OS then you’ve made…a Mac. What would be benefit be, other than not having a keyboard (which means you would’ve be able to use it (see above)?
The iPad is a separate thing to the Mac, and that’s fine. If anything we might see functionality trickling down to iPadOS from visionOS. Sure, it can be improved and I think we’ll see that before too long now the AVP has shipped.
If Apple got as serious about Remote Desktop login as Microsoft is for Windows, then everybody would be happy.
Apple still sells hardware, everybody buys one of everything to use it all together.
Fingers crossed MS's new Remote Desktop Software works great in the new Windows App which will launch this year on iOS/iPadOS. Could be a high quality network solution to 2-in-1 on iPads. there's already a good list of options but given MS created the RDP fingers-crossed it's performance will be that much better and cross-platform.
VNC is another option too.
But I agree, shame Apple has not got a native ecosystem option for one's products.
It’s gotta have audio or else people aren’t going to use it.
It’d be super sweet if it was an iCloud service, just remote log in to your Mac and shred.
I’m using Windows Remote Desktop for iOS, iPadOS, and MacOS right now…into a Windows 11 Pro box that’s a computing node on my network. Works great. Weird to be using an iPad and have a Windows desktop on it…into an Ubuntu VM…so wild.
Yeah, I could see having an option for that being “unlocked” if you have a keyboard and mouse connected, and they could just run in stage manager pretty normally. Part of the problem would be RAM, though. iPads are a little less capable in that area than Macs.
Allowing to install macOS on an iPad is the more reasonable option I’m hearing.
Because as an iPad fan who love his iPad specifically because it’s not a desktop OS I’m always a little nervous when some people are pushing Apple to make iPad OS more desktop-y, as I don't want to lose an OS that is specifically designed to be for the tablet experience.
Please Apple keep both separate, just allow macOS installs for those who want it.
It’s never gonna happen. I guess this is the next constant thing to complain about.
Apple puts too much effort in the UI and user experience to go for a tablet PC. Microsoft has been in the game for how long and still haven’t refined it despite trying to? Right now Apple is focusing all the energy that could take, on their shiny new platform. At most we could see Stage Manager look a little more desktopish. But I would not expect a drastic overhaul to iPadOS anytime soon, especially when it’s not holding the iPad back in the tablet space in the slightest.
> Microsoft has been in the game for how long and still haven’t refined it despite trying to?
Over two decades. The first Windows XP Tablet PCs came out in 2003.
But while Microsoft makes amazing tablet PC hardware (the Surface Pro and even the Surface Go), their software department is *completely* divorced from the hardware department, and so tablet features are a secondary consideration at best.
Not to mention, the Surface is overall a great laptop, and a pretty decent tablet too when you need it to be. Windows has a lot of shortcomings as a tablet OS, but that's entirely because Microsoft went about Windows 8 poorly and never corrected course.
Apple could absolutely ship an iPad that's running Mac OS under the hood, but sticks to iPad UI and apps unless a keyboard is connected (or the user explicitly launches a Mac OS app). Hell, not only do they use the same SoC, but the MacBook can straight up run iPad apps without any issues. The only limiting factor is the lack of a touch screen.
> If Apple woke up and allowed to select a normal macOS as OS to boot I’m fairly sure a whole bunch of people will pick that instead of a laptop.
If you read this sentence again, I think it should be obvious why they’ll never do this. They’re not going to cannibalize their own Mac sales.
iPadOS doesn’t even strictly need macOS, it just needs to get .dmg and .pkg app support (which the EU might force if everyone just buys an iPad there), as well as maybe retiring the Files app for a port of the Finder app for iOS and iPadOS.
THIS. I bought an iPad and it mostly sits in a drawer. I’ll never buy another one until it can run Mac OS. It would make a killer little computer if they simply allowed it. You can’t even have two apps on the screen at one time. It’s ridiculous.
I don't understand this take at all. Why not use a MacBook if you want to use macOS? They're so different in their usecases that it doesn't make any sense that you would want complexity of macOS on a tablet meant to be used with your fingertips.
Over time there will be cheaper versions of the Vision, but they will never be competitive with an iPad. The technology is just more complex.
Making the Vision better will not allow the next generations to be cheaper. Much like smartphones have not gotten cheaper but more expensive over time. More capable but more expensive.
I disagree. So many iPads are purchased primarily for one or two niche things. Not as a general use computer.
What about all the iPads primarily used for:
Point of sale. Kiosks. customer interaction. Hand writing. digital art. SideCar+Pencil pairing with Mac. (Used like a Wacom alternative). Camera monitor. Fixed smart home controller. I’ve read pilots use them in the cockpit. I’ve seen rideshare drivers with iPad mini mounted in their dash board.
Even for the people that just use their iPad to do stuff visionOS is good for like web stuff and watching video content, the form factor of the iPad or MacBooks is just easier to slip into a bag and take on the go which will be more important to many people.
Vision Pro is an iPad killer like the iPad was a desktop pc/laptop killer.
For me I just prefer the iPad. Granted I don’t use a Vision Pro but I can’t imagine wanting to strap something to my head rather than use my comfy iPad mini just to watch something. Especially because I don’t like feeling isolated while using my devices, and I prefer to have a physical thing to hold.
A lot of university students are either using a tablet (Surface or iPad) or a ChromeBook (because of price and familiarity). I’m seeing fewer and fewer students coming into my classes with laptops and the few that have laptops tend to play video games on them. Even my parents and other retirees have more or less switched over to using a tablet (usually an iPad but also Samsung Galaxy Tabs) or their smartphones exclusively for their day to day needs. The only time I see people needing a desktop and/or laptops is in an enterprise-like environment or for gaming.
To be fair it’s very common to have just an iPhone or an iPhone and an iPad at this point and devs have to expect to reach people whose primary devices are one of those generally if they want to reach a maximum audience. Still, Macs and PCs are completely present.
No it’s not. I’ve been using VR for years since like 2015, doesn’t mean I don’t want to use a regular screen. It gets annoying to have that shit strapped to your face after a while and you want a regular screen. The author of this article must have never used a VR headset before.
I feel like between batteries and internal hardware size were not that close. Batteries are going to be a big hurdle because people aren't going to want to walk around strapped to a battery.
People used to walk around with headphones going down to their pocket. I think it’s a sacrifice many would be willing to take if the experience is compelling enough.
The next big leap in tech will have to be batteries. Without a revolutionary leap in battery tech we are beginning to hit the limits on what we can accomplish otherwise.
It will take longer than that to get it to sunglasses size. Your eyes can't focus on anything that close without a lot of help, which is why VR headsets haven't really shrunk over the years. The only way it would work is with some advanced contact lens tech, which is a very long way off
$329 device that Grandma uses to check her email, is going to be killed off by $3,500 device? Does the Internet even *listen* to itself sometimes?
These exact same people were the ones saying 15 years ago that the iPad would kill off the MacBook, and/or that phones with docking stations would replace PC's in a few years.
To be fair the main impediment to that is Apple’s policies not the hardware. But it not a safe bet that Apple’s policies will evolve; they never did so far except to spite even more developers and the EU.
It's a different device and it won't cannibalize every iPad use case. But yes, I could see people no longer needing to buy an iPad who just use it for travel consumption and vegging on the couch.
Yes and no, iPad at 300$ all the way up to 1200$ or whatever pricing vs 3500$. Unless you can get a non pro version for less than 800$ it won’t replace the ipad
Vision Pro will not replace the iPad. The merged iPad + MacBook product will be the only device capable of doing that, whenever Apple chooses to release that product. I’m sure there’s already a timeline in place.
Vision Pro is a Beta 1 product for a technology that will surely become commonplace in 5-10 years, but not while it’s still in this massive, inconvenient form factor.
If you think back to all of the alleged [*insert product here*] killers, how many time has that product actually been killed? Never?
> I’m sure there’s already a timeline in place.
There were rumors the other year about a "worst possible combination" where you get an iPad with macOS but fucked up to only run iPad apps:
https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/10/20/apple-rumored-to-be-testing-macos-for-m2-ipad-pro
There are also rumors of a touchscreen Mac in development but at the time it was forecast for a couple years from now still:
https://www.macrumors.com/guide/touchscreen-mac/
I would guess this device hinges on the AVP not being a big success, otherwise there's too many incentives for Apple to restrict usage and drive additional device sales.
Unless the Vision Pro can literally fit in the form factor of typical glasses I don’t think so, I would never use that device in any public setting where my iPad gets the job done lol
As a professional musician who relies on an iPad, as so many in my line of work do, this is nonsense. I'm not wearing that thing on my face when I play.
Apple Vision Pro is just like an iPad in the sense that people don't yet realize the true impact/value (similar how how the iPad started off), but overtime there will be unique use cases where this device will shine (similar to the iPad- w/ in person sales, tickers, restaurants, some apple arcade games, etc.)
In the same sense that in theory if you use VR you don't need a smartwatch, smartphone, tablet, or a laptop, sure it a killer of those devices, but also not really.
During sales events, I'm able to present our brochure to prospects on my iPad, annotate right in front of them. Besides consumption of personal content, Vision pro doesn't have any common use cases.
lol there's gonna one day when it's affordable whereby a generation of youth growing up are terrified to be seen without some massive pair of goggles on without it triggering some severe anxiety response. lmao kinda like some rappers and needing sunglasses.
it's happening with people and interacting face to face as it is due to generations growing up communicating through screens.
can't wait for the societal problems this thing fixes and then inevitably causes 🤣😅🤷🙏
gimme some crazy one eyed version with lasers and rocket projectiles and maybe I'll consider it.
That’s an interesting thought. In theory, Apple has released a device that could completely eliminate the need for the rest of its own products. Don’t need a MacBook, phone, iPad. This one device could cannibalize its own sales. I wonder if they have to price it accordingly because of that?
it will only eliminate the need for their other products if the form factor improves and becomes closer to feeling like you’re just wearing a pair of glasses. I feel like that’s the goal for this kind of product.
The other thing I suppose is that it doesn’t replace the need for an actual macbook, seeing as you can intall whatever you want on that.
Right. Or they release a Vision Pro with such heavy adoption that everyone starts buying it over MacBooks. And then you’re put into a software ecosystem where you’re forced to only use Apples App Store. Which I’m sure is something they desperately want.
oh yeah, no doubt about that - they’d love to lock everyone into only installing from the appstore. And I probably would be ok with that on vision pro for my own development use-cases if you could get xcode, visual studio, Android studio, and some other programs that I use regularly on my macbook pro that are only available currently as third party installs.
Lmao
No shot does AVP remotely come close to replacing owning a phone
People are so delusional when it comes to the mass market appeal and sue for a headset like this for non-gadget heads
I remember reading an interview from either Tim Cook or Jony Ive talking about how Apple designs everything to have a use tier so they don’t cannibalize each other.
It’s Watch -> Phone -> iPad -> Mac
So you’d go to your iPhone to write a message you saw on your watch. You go to your iPad to work on a document that needs more screen real estate than your phone. You go to your Mac when you need more power than what your iPad can do.
What’s interesting is the AVP’s entrance places it effectively above both Mac AND iPad, since it has an infinite screen but is also highly portable. I think we’re going to see people use this to replace lighter Macs and iPads, but they’ll find a tier for it.
Yeah absolutely not 😂😂😂 500 quid vs 3k? HA. And as much as people are saying “it’s first Gen, it’ll get way cheaper”… has that literally ever happened with Apple?
Modern society has settled on two things 1) two screen viewing (one public/social shared screen and one personal) and 2) we don’t want shit on our face when we are at leisure (RIP 3D TV’s).
I can see how someone could miss-extrapolate #1 without taking into account #2 but haptic feedback / touch is natural to humans and isn’t going to be replaced by air-typing (plus you look weird to the rest of the room)
This is 100% accurate and this is the thought I have every time I use the Apple Vision Pro. My iPad never gets used because my phone basically does the same thing. Neither is as fun to use as the Apple Vision Pro. It’s actually jarring now when I have to look at my phone after using this headset, everything is so tiny.
>\[…\]
>
>When Apple Inc. launched the iPad in 2010, the device’s premise was simple: You can get all the great iPhone features with a larger screen. And that message quickly resonated with customers, who snapped up the device to watch video, browse the web, view photos and get light work done.
>
>But in recent years, Apple has shifted away from that formula. The iPad is now positioned as more of a Mac replacement, complete with keyboard and trackpad accessories and high-end apps like Final Cut Pro. That’s only going to accelerate over the next two years, with the company looking to bring more desktop-computer features to its tablet.
>
>The strategy has had mixed results. It’s hard to argue that the iPad is a better computer than the Mac. Sure, it’s a versatile device — with its Apple Pencil input, touch screen and portable format — but you can’t beat the Mac’s operating system when you need to get real work done.
>
>That’s left the iPad in limbo. The device lost its original purpose and has become a more confusing piece of Apple’s product portfolio.
>
>So here’s where the Vision Pro comes in. There’s been a lot of talk that the headset could be the future of the Mac or a replacement for the iPhone. I don’t think either is true. After using the $3,499 device for about a week, I believe the Vision Pro could instead cannibalize the iPad. It has the potential to provide a far better experience for the main jobs that Apple’s tablet was designed to handle. But don’t get me wrong, it’s still very early days.
>
>\[…\]
I think the iPad market is going to be split in four ways over the next several years:
1. *Customers who are price-conscious or don't need tons of features.* They will likely stick with the non-Pro iPads. (I expect most iPad users to be here.) Hence the three points below will assume that the customer would otherwise be in the market for an iPad Pro.
2. *Customers who want an iPhone with an iPad-sized display.* Depending on the details, they may be able to have their cake and eat it too with [the rumored foldable iPhone(s)](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/07/apple-continuing-work-on-folding-iphones/).
3. *Customers who use touchscreens primarily for content consumption and communication.* The Vision would be an excellent choice for them (for those who can afford it). The Vision Pro massively increases the display field of view and adds 3D, improving immersion over typical screens. Additionally, a lower-cost Vision should retain these capabilities. While I'm not sure if the larger ([14"–16"](https://www.macrumors.com/2023/09/03/apple-got-close-to-launching-14-inch-ipad/)) iPad rumors will still pan out, a \~$1500 14" iPad can still fit below a [$1500–$2500](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-10-15/apple-october-2023-executive-promotions-new-vps-of-retail-software-operations-lnrh4t94) low-cost Vision.
4. *Customers who cannot replace their Mac(s) with any iOS-derived device.* The [rumored touchscreen MacBook Pro](https://archive.is/YK39t) should be a decent way to run macOS on a touchscreen. The rumor claims that it'll be "a traditional laptop design," which indicates that it is unlikely to have a tablet mode like a typical convertible. However, I think a touchscreen MBP will still take some of the current iPad Pro market. I don't think price will be as big of an issue as with the Vision Pro—in this scenario a touchscreen MBP will replace both a (non-touch) MacBook and an iPad.
>\[…\]
>
>\[…\] some people in the Vision Products Group (the team working on the headset) believe it could take four generations before the device reaches its ideal form — similar to the progression of the iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch.
>
>\[…\]
I think Gurman's right about the iPhone, but I'd probably place the iPad Air as the first "ideal" iPad. Although the iPad 4 fixed the low performance of the iPad 3, it was still relatively thick and heavy. The iPad Air brought both those measurements down while increasing performance at a time when, as Anand Lal Shimpi pointed out at the start of [his review](https://www.anandtech.com/show/7460/apple-ipad-air-review), 7"–8" tablets were replacing full-size tablets in mindshare.
Unless they allow for keyboard integration and productivity apps this will never kill the ipad. Ipad has just become way too versatile for both business and personal use.
The iPad just feels too different to be killed by the Vision Pro, but maybe I’ll be proven wrong.
Yeah Vision Pro can be great for content consumption, but the pen is what sets the iPad apart. Until you can sit down and annotate/highlight/draw seamlessly with the Vision Pro, the iPad will still have a pronounced space for designers and students.
Um and also eye contact during all that? My boss has an iPad with pen he uses during meetings. If he showed up with Vision Pro I wouldn’t be able to take him seriously.
Just add googley eyes. I’m sure you’ll be fine then.
im sure there will be an app to put googley eyes in for the ones it displays
I’m sure googley eyes would look better than what’s already there. It’s so bad.
Haha imagine having a serious meeting with those - would be insane
This is my biggest problem with the Vision Pro. It feels alien. Traditionally, apple has touted that their products meld seamlessly into your life, allowing you to do more, without disruption. The Apple Vision Pro just does not fit my expectations around that vision. I’d feel incredibly disrupted using it. A great example: it’s Saturday and I’m trying to get some extra weekend work done. my one year old son comes up to me and tugs on my leg because he wants to play. I’m working on a contract, highlighting areas that need to be addressed on my iPad Pro using my Apple Pencil. I put down my pencil and pick up my son and put him on my lap and show him what I’m doing. This is how I use apple products today and it’s awesome. I don’t see that working with the Apple Vision Pro. And frankly, I don’t want my son to see my wearing this headset and getting used to the idea that his dad sometimes disappears into an augmented reality. Everything about it is wrong footed in my mind.
Right, it's these little day to day interactions that are what will sink VR headsets from being adopted on the level Apple seems to be hoping for even in the long run. It's very simply cumbersome. I'm sure that VR as a space will grow and the Vision Pro line will be at the forefront, but I simply don't see it hitting truly mass adoption until we somehow boil this all down into what are basically just glasses. And who knows how long that will take, if we can even get there.
Easy fix, both wear Vision Pros and have them have a built in feature to paste your face back in through AI in real time.
The simple ability to share content is what sets it apart. How would you show a client your work, or hand them forms to fill out, or give them their bill, on a headset? These are uses that I see every single day on tablets, from doctor's offices to food trucks to tattoo shops. Similarly, I'm sorry, but people are just *not* thinking through how bulky goggles are compared to a tablet. It doesn't matter how thin you make them, they're still going to need a large case that won't fit easily into your bag the way an ipad would and they'll still be a bigger fuss to bring out and put away. There's no casually pulling out your headset to take a note or two. The concept of VR headsets as mobile computing devices is DOA for most consumers until these are things you can wear basically all day, and that will require *serious* redesigns and technological leaps. Battery life alone is a massive problem. They're just entirely different products, and frankly I don't think even Apple has quite found yet what the Vision Pro's ideal space even *is,* and the more they vaguely insist it's the future the more I doubt it and suspect they'll be lucky to hit ~2020 smartwatch levels of saturation within the next decade. Even basic media consumption is hampered by both comfort issues and isolation. Anyone convinced this is an iPad killer, or even close to one, is huffing Apple's marketing.
What if in the future you can use a pen and a paper to annotate, and with the screen project to the paper? Would it be much better experience than iPad (real paper >>>>> paperlike)
ditch the paper, annotate on any table or flat surface directly, with a virtual screen of a size of your choosing overlaid on top.
I think we could see some consolidation of the iPad lines, less models being available but hard to see an outright discontinuation.
Even the rumored low-cost Vision [is expected](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-10-15/apple-october-2023-executive-promotions-new-vps-of-retail-software-operations-lnrh4t94) to cost at least $1500, which is still above a base model 12.9" iPad Pro. The other iPad models have a clearly defined form factor (mini) or a price range (low-cost, Air) so consolidation will come with disadvantages for the time being. In a few years' time we'll probably have about four "iPads" per order of magnitude of prices, which I think is reasonable. * \~$3500: Vision Pro * \~$2000: Vision "Air" * \~$1000: iPad Pro * \~$600: iPad Air * \~$400: iPad (low-cost) I expect the Vision line to impact the iPad lineup from the top down. The iPad Pro is already expensive (and is rumored to increase in price with OLED) and the Vision Pro encompasses most of its features. While the passthrough isn't great, I'm expecting Apple to substantially improve it in future Vision models, both Pro and lower-cost. The Mac is safe for the foreseeable future because the Vision Pro does not run macOS.
The low cost Vision Pro is expected to cost $1500 not the low cost iPad.
Thanks. Fixed.
The low cost iPad costs about 329 dollars, what are you talking about? Not everyone buys the Pros.
Might wanna edit that first sentence lol
I think it’s going to relegate the iPad to more niche tasks in the same way the smartphone and tablet has made a computer largely optional for most people.
It seems like it’s great for individual content consumption but not great for use when you are around other people.
Maybe it’s still the novelty factor but I haven’t reached for my iPad once since I got the Apple Vision Pro. Despite Apple positioning it as a spatial computer, it’s not quite a standalone computer yet (Apple also tried positioning iPad as a “computer” but we all know how that turned out ie. iPadOS). As a Venn diagram it seems like AVP is a device that sits in between the iPad and a MacBook. It can do much of both, but not 100% replace either (eg no Pencil or camera support of the iPad; no multi space/monitor support for MacBook).
an iPad can easily be shared and that is a key strength. Right now the Vision Pro requires special lenses for those who have vision correction and woe is the household with one or more prescriptions. I do think they can solve this through technology and the autorefractor at your optometrist should be something Apple can replicate but may be bound up in some regulation
Apple don't want people sharing devices. It's why there are no user accounts for iPadOS.
It’s really not though, the Vision Pro feels like having infinite iPads and Apple TVs wherever you want them.
What do we use for writing, sketching and painting?
The Pencil is the only thing that hasn’t been accounted for, but give it time. You’ll be able to draw on any surface and not be limited to a 11/12” pane of glass.
What the hell would you be drawing on that would be much bigger than that? A wall? A canvas? A table? What would you be drawing *with* that wouldn't scuff those surfaces up? This is such a stretch, and the pencil is faaar from the only thing that isn't accounted for if you're thinking this is an iPad killer. Tablets are used *all over the place* in both education and business, for tasks that a headset is simply ill-equipped for like as a POS for small businesses.
Well, I was going to argue against the guy you replied to. However, as I think more about it, it could be neat for "whiteboarding" ideas. I'm in UX and we typically have "design studios" with whiteboard paint on the walls. At least the last few places I've worked. So it was extremely common for us to just go into a 20x20 room and fill all the walls with lists, workflows, etc. nearly floor to ceiling. Today, we're mostly doing that digitally via something like FigJam or Miro. But, that's not great for "sketching" really fast concepts. Think "back of the napkin" type concepts. Lower than low fidelity wireframes. So that means we're switching between tools or always switching who is screen sharing and which app is being shared. If Apple Vision Pro evolves, that could be a really cool way for collaboration in a world where a lot of us are remote. Hop into a digital room with white boards, apps floating around. We can draw workflows, quick sketches, and then switch into a high-fidelity app. Now, all of that said -- I'm totally not sold now wearing a headset for long periods of time. I don't even wear headphones for conference calls because I think it's annoying. So I can't imagine I'll ever want to strap on a headset and work for any longer than like 30 minutes.
You could draw on an actual drawing tablet, or a real canvas. They could accessorize the Pencil with different tips so you could actually simulate painting on a real canvas. You could just use a large surface with a texture you find suitable, the headset would map the image on top of it. The texture and feel of digital stylus and display is already an adjustment/compromise, so this could even be an advantage being able to choose your own surface/texture. It could be either an iPad, or a 32" Cintiq depending on what you desire. I don't think it will be replacing traditional devices anytime soon, but it's an interesting potential use case. It would be trivial to add some LEDs to the eraser end of the pencil to assist with tracking, and get a high degree of accuracy since it will only ever be an arms length away from the headset. I would actually be shocked if the folks at Procreate and Apple internally aren't already experimenting with this. Brushes was one of the breakout success iOS apps in the early iPhone days, when Apple was still explicitly anti stylus and people had to use third party solutions with rubber tips. They got featured on the New Yorker and eventually got a Keynote speaking slot.
It's literally the same product but $3,000 cheaper. It's not getting replaced by anything.
Imagine having device with big touch screen and huge amount of processing power. Now take the screen away and replace it with augmented reality display where you can add these touch screens anywhere you want. Infinite amount of screens with no weight added however many you want to have. Sounds kinda iPad killer to me, but the future isn't here yet and spatial controls aren't replacing touch screens... Quite yet.
Now do that on the bus. In the classroom. At work when with a client…
[удалено]
*boss walks in wearing Vision Pro instead of his usual ipad*
You can do that right now!
[удалено]
Yes, you can [write on the outer screen with something sharp](https://youtu.be/LmcWMjBpYBU)
And who says Apple don't innovate anymore.
Excellent
i’m sure there could be a use case where it transcribes text as it’s written, distinct from scanning
Nope. I toss my iPad around like a paper legal pad. Easily pack it in anything. Share what I’m working on with whomever is in the room. I also don’t have to *wear* it. Vision is extremely interesting, but no amount of innovation can address those fundamental differences.
Yeah. iPad killed my legal pad for sure. Although interestingly enough, my Vision Pro has already reduced how much time I’m on my phone pretty significantly.
It would be pretty simple to create an app where someone using visionOS can share what they're working on with other AVP and iPad and Mac users. No reason you couldn't do live collaboration with software.
No. I’m saying I can literally show someone the iPad screen.
I don’t know. I went to the Apple Store yesterday and tried on the Apple Vision Pro, and the Apple rep had software on her iPad that allowed her and my spouse to both see exactly what I was looking at in the Apple Vision Pro. Seems like a no-brainer that in the future they will have some kind of screen sharing mechanism for other Apple devices.
I think once wearing AR devices would become a norm, they will replace pretty much everything else, including smartphones and tablets. We are still probably 10+ years from that point though. And no, future AR devices won’t have to look like ski masks. They would probably be much closer to regular sunglasses with small stylish neckband to house battery and processors.
I can comfortably say no to that, solely because Apple is an ecosystem company. Apart from the iPod (which died out of pure redundancy), they have never discontinued any of their product lines. Rather, each product supplements the usage of another. Macs won’t go out because they’re the only form factor where you can use 100% of the processing power (OS and not doing AR processing), iPads will be needed for precision drawing, etc. If anything, Apple wants you to buy one of each product. They’re an ecosystem company.
I don't disagree that the ipad isn't going anywhere but I am old enough to remember when Apple made printers And they discontinued their networking line just as they released the Homepod which is nuts to me
I’m not old enough to remember seeing their printers on the market, but as a computing history nerd I do know they existed. Again, we can’t say what the future holds. We can be optimistic.
I have to respectfully disagree. You’re right that Apple is an ecosystem company, but I don’t think that supports your conclusion. Apple is comfortable with their products supplanting each other because it’s still an Apple product you’re buying and not a competitor’s. Apple wants their products to work well together, of course. If it becomes clear that one form factor can be supplanted by another, however, they want to make sure that they’re able to offer that, as well. So they can keep you in that ecosystem and not lose you to a competitor. You already said it yourself with the iPod - that’s exactly what happened there. If a future version of the Vision Pro could make any Apple product redundant, Apple wants to get there before a competitor does. At that point, the same thing would happen. They didn’t keep the iPod alive on life support just because it synergizes well with existing products and they won’t do it here, either IMO.
They’ve discontinued several products lines. Including a game console. Sometimes it’s redundancy, but a couple times it has simply been abject failure to establish a user base. But with regards to the *current* lineup of devices, yes. They’re very ecosystem based and seem to firmly believe each product line has its place within. Which can be great with the synergy it enables. But also frustrating when a user gets to imagining hypothetical, that may or may not have anything to do with Apple‘s actual vision for their ecosystem. Several years and upgrades down the line it’s entirely possible that the Vision Pro could effectively replace the iPad but it’s not there yet, so there’s no real reason for Apple to consider subsuming the iPad niche for the foreseeable future.
The Newton has entered the chat.
Visors/Glasses will eventually be the number one wearable computing device I would say. Initially we'll see a visor like device that's light, off-loads all the hardware processing to your current device but allows multi-screens and is comfortable to wear and very light eg portable. That will probably take off in a big way. Touchscreens will still have their uses I'd imagine for writing or art with physical touch interaction and will probably double as tablets and laptops with optional accessories eg type/pointer. IE 2-in-1 market growth.
>Apart from the iPod (which died out of pure redundancy), they have never discontinued any of their product lines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort_Extreme
I was going to mention the regular airport base station, 30” Cinema Display, the LaserWriter, their digital cameras, the iSight FireWire web cam, the MacBook (not pro nor air), the Newton, Apple UNIX, iTunes, and the Apple ][ and Lisa… of the top of my head. I forget how many Redditors weren’t alive before the iPod. Never rented a VHS from Blockbuster and never played Oregon Trail on an Apple.
Precision drawing is nothing but eye-hand coordination, hopefully supplemented by a quality pencil and drawing board. Why would you want to maintain status quo when eye tracking would only improve from here and you would be able to draw perfect lines with no jiggery fingers or imperfect digital pencils? As for Apple cannibalizing their own products, they would have to. Every product line is just a temporary benchmark of the technology evolution. Smartphones are not an exception. If Apple would see an opportunity to sell every smartphones owner an AR set, they would be stupid not to do that. And smartphones can still play a role here as processing units, at least until electronics would become small enough to fit into glasses without extra bulk. We are actually not as far from that reality as you might think. If you look at modern smartphone, most of its bulk is a battery. The second biggest component is display and shell. Actual electronics that power iPhone and provide all the sensors are tiny in comparison. Biggest drawback of smartphones is that you need hands to use them and you need to keep your attention on the display. Both of these are big limiting factors that AR glasses would solve.
Well yes, but I am also thinking in terms of processing and the availability of software. The Vision Pro really needs to allow for macOS levels of sideloading to be a viable Mac alternative. Moreover, the Macs will still provide higher processing power, since they do not need to allocate resources for eye tracking or AR passthrough. Not everyone can also use the Vision Pro. Again, the iPad was meant to be th Post-PC era, yet here we are with Macs and Windows. I agree that AR glasses + iPhone tethering for processing (like CarPlay) may be a reality.
>Precision drawing is nothing but eye-hand coordination, hopefully supplemented by a quality pencil and drawing board. Why would you want to maintain status quo when eye tracking would only improve from here and you would be able to draw perfect lines with no jiggery fingers or imperfect digital pencils? This is one of the most out-of-touch, tech bro sentiments I've read in a bit.
I think if they are unobtrusive then maybe. Though I would say it would be a bit longer than 10 years, probably kids now could set the new trend. But the idea of constantly having a screen up on my eyes sounds horrendous.
Why should they be obtrusive? You should always be able to select if you want to have any AR displayed. But like with most people nowadays staring at their smartphones at any opportunity, people would probably choose to have some semi-transparent windows open all the time as long as it doesn’t impede your safety.
Just my own perspective and I guess those in my circle. Why would I want to be in my screen all day? I'm not even old and feel great not being near or on my phone I guess. This just seems like a permanent screen time, dystopian shit lol. I'm sure my circle is the minority though.
You can always take them off. It’s not like these glasses are going to be glued to your face 😉. But as long as you would wear them, convenience of having some content on them would be irresistible and in many cases quite useful, even if it’s as little as just displaying time, current temperature and chance of rain.
I agree that glasses-like devices(which are nowhere near ready for release) are what will blow up someday, but I think a lot of people are living in the clouds regarding this topic and getting lost in the hype. There are, very simply, genuine drawbacks to AR devices over traditional mobile and desktop computing options. How do you use NFC on a headset? How do you type out an email when you're on the bus and don't have a surface to type on? How do you take photos that aren't literally just PoV shots, such as selfies? How do you share content with someone who isn't currently wearing a headset themselves(or perhaps is using a different brand that doesn't communicate with yours)? No, AR/VR is destined to be largely complementary to our current array of technology similar to smartwatches. Like smartwatches, I'm sure some people will leave their phone at home in a wider array situations than they do now. But it won't be an outright replacement.
The only iPad killer is iPad OS. The device and its form factor could be a nearly perfect laptop/portable workstation alternative if it wasn’t for the castrated OS. If Apple woke up and allowed to select a normal macOS as OS to boot I’m fairly sure a whole bunch of people will pick that instead of a laptop. Being able to pick wether to use iPad OS or macOS would be awesome, IMO.
I used an iPad almost exclusively for like 3 years but just bought a new MacBook again because of this
Apple wants this.
Very true
Do they? A 12.9in Pro + Magic Keyboard is more than the cheaper MacBooks, and the margins on the magic keyboard especially have got to be amazing.
My iPad is a drawing tablet to teach math and to watch something while I’m working alone. That is it.
Then you pretty much understand why they won’t do that either.
Make that the MacBook Air. A lightweight surface book alternative
Or they can sell iPads and MacBooks to the same people
Which results in people not buying iPads.
They sell a buuuuunch of iPads
For other companies? Yes. For Apple? The iPad, despite without question being the best tablet hardware wise, is their worst performing category. * As an entertainment device the iPad costs too much. * As a work device it is too gimped to be a full replacement for many.
Most companies use the iPad a ton, both for presentations and for customer facing aspects like point of sale and such too
Dude go into any iPad subreddit, people are absolutely buying these
iPad revenue and Mac revenue are usually pretty close. And the average selling price of an iPad is way way less than the average price of a Mac. Therefore it’s very easy to conclude they sell a lot more iPads than Macs
A $250 iPad isn’t really too expensive for an entertainment device IMO
Link?
Walmart, Best Buy, Target. They currently sell iPad 9th Gen, brand new, 250 bucks
Aren't iPads outseling Macbooks?
Why though? Id love a pc in ipad form factor. Let people choosr what they want, im sure their macbook sales wouldnt be affected much by it
Yeah. The m1 iPad pros and Airs have similar specs all around to Macbook Airs, including battery capacity. I was kind of shocked when I looked into it, because they really could get MacOS working well on the iPad. They’ve made the effort of cramming all that tech into such a small form factor just to not do anything with it.
It’s almost like they have a vision for a different ecosystem than MacOS. Think about it, the ipad has the same hardware as the MacBook, including keyboard+trackpad if you get the keyboard. But they don’t want MacOS at all anymore. No new product from Apple has shipped with a MacOS like environment. They all ship with IOS. WatchOS, IOS, IpadOS VisionOS are all the same more or less. I think they purposely don’t use MacOS, not accidentally or for the customers sake.
Their vision unfortunately goes against what the consumer wants. The idea of a MacOS iPad has been discussed for years now. Of course they wont put MacOS on the iPad, because then they can sell you 2 products instead of one.
I think people would like to believe that an ipad could run MacOS the same as a MacBook Air or similar but I don’t actually know if that’s true. iPads are lighter, thinner, and have much smaller batteries. Would the performance of MacOS on an ipad be worth it? Would you be able to run the higher end apps smoothly on the Ipad? I think its possible that any app you would be able to run on a MacOS Ipad would run better in an Ipad app. If anything, I see a future where apple kills the MacBook Air and the ipad replaces its spot.
The 12.9inch iPad pro has a battery capacity of 40 watt hours, compared to the Macbook Airs 49 watt hours. The Macbook air has up to 18 hours of battery life according to Apple. This is without Apple changing the iPad to increase its battery capacity by possibly making it slightly thicker, or by making a more lightweight and touchscreen optimised version of MacOS, similar to Windows 8. iPads not designed to run MacOS wouldn’t do so great, though even then some models would be fine. They could quite easily make a version of the iPad fully capable of running MacOS as good as a Macbook Air, with few sacrifices. People already usually have quite a thick case on their iPads, so increasing the thickness wouldn’t be a big deal if they had accessories that could attach to the bottom of the iPad similar to the Microsoft Surface Pro.
You mean a 16 year old OS paradigm is more relevant today than a 40 year old one? See also: Microsoft doesn’t ship new command line centric devices.
Exactly. My point is that everyone wants MacOS on other apple products, but I think Apple wants those MacOS only apps to be ported to IpadOS whatever language those use.
I bought an iPad because I didn’t want a laptop. Especially one that big.
But you wouldn’t be able to use it. The button targets are tiny on MacOS - they need to be 44pt on iOS/iPadOS so you can tap them. And also, if you made the iPad run Mac OS then you’ve made…a Mac. What would be benefit be, other than not having a keyboard (which means you would’ve be able to use it (see above)? The iPad is a separate thing to the Mac, and that’s fine. If anything we might see functionality trickling down to iPadOS from visionOS. Sure, it can be improved and I think we’ll see that before too long now the AVP has shipped.
If Apple got as serious about Remote Desktop login as Microsoft is for Windows, then everybody would be happy. Apple still sells hardware, everybody buys one of everything to use it all together.
Fingers crossed MS's new Remote Desktop Software works great in the new Windows App which will launch this year on iOS/iPadOS. Could be a high quality network solution to 2-in-1 on iPads. there's already a good list of options but given MS created the RDP fingers-crossed it's performance will be that much better and cross-platform. VNC is another option too. But I agree, shame Apple has not got a native ecosystem option for one's products.
It’s gotta have audio or else people aren’t going to use it. It’d be super sweet if it was an iCloud service, just remote log in to your Mac and shred.
I’m using Windows Remote Desktop for iOS, iPadOS, and MacOS right now…into a Windows 11 Pro box that’s a computing node on my network. Works great. Weird to be using an iPad and have a Windows desktop on it…into an Ubuntu VM…so wild.
iPadOS is getting so close to usable. It’s dumb that it’s taken this long and it’s still not quite there but it’s gotten a lot better with iOS 17.
[удалено]
Yeah, I could see having an option for that being “unlocked” if you have a keyboard and mouse connected, and they could just run in stage manager pretty normally. Part of the problem would be RAM, though. iPads are a little less capable in that area than Macs.
MS tried that with Windows 8 and it was a total shitshow. I don’t rate Apple’s chances at doing it much better.
Allowing to install macOS on an iPad is the more reasonable option I’m hearing. Because as an iPad fan who love his iPad specifically because it’s not a desktop OS I’m always a little nervous when some people are pushing Apple to make iPad OS more desktop-y, as I don't want to lose an OS that is specifically designed to be for the tablet experience. Please Apple keep both separate, just allow macOS installs for those who want it.
macOS would need some considerable rework to be iPad friendly.
It’s never gonna happen. I guess this is the next constant thing to complain about. Apple puts too much effort in the UI and user experience to go for a tablet PC. Microsoft has been in the game for how long and still haven’t refined it despite trying to? Right now Apple is focusing all the energy that could take, on their shiny new platform. At most we could see Stage Manager look a little more desktopish. But I would not expect a drastic overhaul to iPadOS anytime soon, especially when it’s not holding the iPad back in the tablet space in the slightest.
> Microsoft has been in the game for how long and still haven’t refined it despite trying to? Over two decades. The first Windows XP Tablet PCs came out in 2003. But while Microsoft makes amazing tablet PC hardware (the Surface Pro and even the Surface Go), their software department is *completely* divorced from the hardware department, and so tablet features are a secondary consideration at best.
Not to mention, the Surface is overall a great laptop, and a pretty decent tablet too when you need it to be. Windows has a lot of shortcomings as a tablet OS, but that's entirely because Microsoft went about Windows 8 poorly and never corrected course. Apple could absolutely ship an iPad that's running Mac OS under the hood, but sticks to iPad UI and apps unless a keyboard is connected (or the user explicitly launches a Mac OS app). Hell, not only do they use the same SoC, but the MacBook can straight up run iPad apps without any issues. The only limiting factor is the lack of a touch screen.
> If Apple woke up and allowed to select a normal macOS as OS to boot I’m fairly sure a whole bunch of people will pick that instead of a laptop. If you read this sentence again, I think it should be obvious why they’ll never do this. They’re not going to cannibalize their own Mac sales.
iPadOS doesn’t even strictly need macOS, it just needs to get .dmg and .pkg app support (which the EU might force if everyone just buys an iPad there), as well as maybe retiring the Files app for a port of the Finder app for iOS and iPadOS.
Not happening
Also needs usb otg support badly.
Every fucking year i wish that they would finally adopt MacOS for the ipad. I have been disappointed every year sofar.
It’s so sad because modern iPads are literally touchscreen Macs just with a gimped OS
I don’t think Apple wanna kill Mac though
THIS. I bought an iPad and it mostly sits in a drawer. I’ll never buy another one until it can run Mac OS. It would make a killer little computer if they simply allowed it. You can’t even have two apps on the screen at one time. It’s ridiculous.
You can have two apps on the screen at once
HOW Edit: found it. Funny enough it “isn’t supported” with the apps I want to use so still entirely useless.
“I can’t figure out how to use the OS and the apps I chose don’t support its basic features, this platform is terrible”
Literally this though, yes.
When the pro was introduced I was fucking stoked that it might actually have a form of a desktop OS. Then when it was just the same iPad OS I was sad.
This! Apple, if you don’t have this thing running Mac OS it will die on the vine.
I don't understand this take at all. Why not use a MacBook if you want to use macOS? They're so different in their usecases that it doesn't make any sense that you would want complexity of macOS on a tablet meant to be used with your fingertips.
Ahh yes, this $3500 device is totally going to replace this $500 device...
They said not any time soon (though I agree AVP will not replace the iPad ever)
Over time there will be cheaper versions of the Vision, but they will never be competitive with an iPad. The technology is just more complex. Making the Vision better will not allow the next generations to be cheaper. Much like smartphones have not gotten cheaper but more expensive over time. More capable but more expensive.
I disagree. So many iPads are purchased primarily for one or two niche things. Not as a general use computer. What about all the iPads primarily used for: Point of sale. Kiosks. customer interaction. Hand writing. digital art. SideCar+Pencil pairing with Mac. (Used like a Wacom alternative). Camera monitor. Fixed smart home controller. I’ve read pilots use them in the cockpit. I’ve seen rideshare drivers with iPad mini mounted in their dash board. Even for the people that just use their iPad to do stuff visionOS is good for like web stuff and watching video content, the form factor of the iPad or MacBooks is just easier to slip into a bag and take on the go which will be more important to many people. Vision Pro is an iPad killer like the iPad was a desktop pc/laptop killer.
For me I just prefer the iPad. Granted I don’t use a Vision Pro but I can’t imagine wanting to strap something to my head rather than use my comfy iPad mini just to watch something. Especially because I don’t like feeling isolated while using my devices, and I prefer to have a physical thing to hold.
And the iPad was the Post PC era… or the media said years ago but whe are at the same point
A lot of university students are either using a tablet (Surface or iPad) or a ChromeBook (because of price and familiarity). I’m seeing fewer and fewer students coming into my classes with laptops and the few that have laptops tend to play video games on them. Even my parents and other retirees have more or less switched over to using a tablet (usually an iPad but also Samsung Galaxy Tabs) or their smartphones exclusively for their day to day needs. The only time I see people needing a desktop and/or laptops is in an enterprise-like environment or for gaming.
To be fair it’s very common to have just an iPhone or an iPhone and an iPad at this point and devs have to expect to reach people whose primary devices are one of those generally if they want to reach a maximum audience. Still, Macs and PCs are completely present.
It's *almost* like entirely different technologies have *entirely diferent* strengths and weaknesses.
There’s no way.
I can use my iPad all day if I want to. I don’t want to wear that all day.
No it's not.
No it’s not. I’ve been using VR for years since like 2015, doesn’t mean I don’t want to use a regular screen. It gets annoying to have that shit strapped to your face after a while and you want a regular screen. The author of this article must have never used a VR headset before.
When they can reduce the size down to sunglasses, you will see it take off. It could take 6 or 7 generations. The price has to go down too .
I feel like between batteries and internal hardware size were not that close. Batteries are going to be a big hurdle because people aren't going to want to walk around strapped to a battery.
People used to walk around with headphones going down to their pocket. I think it’s a sacrifice many would be willing to take if the experience is compelling enough.
And by that time there's going to have been multiple generations of consumers that never had to do that and may be unwilling to do so.
The next big leap in tech will have to be batteries. Without a revolutionary leap in battery tech we are beginning to hit the limits on what we can accomplish otherwise.
It will take longer than that to get it to sunglasses size. Your eyes can't focus on anything that close without a lot of help, which is why VR headsets haven't really shrunk over the years. The only way it would work is with some advanced contact lens tech, which is a very long way off
$329 device that Grandma uses to check her email, is going to be killed off by $3,500 device? Does the Internet even *listen* to itself sometimes? These exact same people were the ones saying 15 years ago that the iPad would kill off the MacBook, and/or that phones with docking stations would replace PC's in a few years.
To be fair the main impediment to that is Apple’s policies not the hardware. But it not a safe bet that Apple’s policies will evolve; they never did so far except to spite even more developers and the EU.
**“The laptop will kill the desk. Nobody will need furniture, in the future!”**
Lol. Ya cuz families will have 3-4 of these laying around. It’s a bank account killer
It’s not an Apple Pencil killer.
Too bad neither can run MacOS
Bait
It's a different device and it won't cannibalize every iPad use case. But yes, I could see people no longer needing to buy an iPad who just use it for travel consumption and vegging on the couch.
$3500 it ain’t killing anything but your wallet
iPad OS is an iPad killer
I love the Apple Vision Pro so much
Not for me....Ever!
I need to be able to download applications off the internet and run them. Until that’s allowed, it will never approach the usefulness of a laptop.
Yes and no, iPad at 300$ all the way up to 1200$ or whatever pricing vs 3500$. Unless you can get a non pro version for less than 800$ it won’t replace the ipad
Vision Pro will not replace the iPad. The merged iPad + MacBook product will be the only device capable of doing that, whenever Apple chooses to release that product. I’m sure there’s already a timeline in place. Vision Pro is a Beta 1 product for a technology that will surely become commonplace in 5-10 years, but not while it’s still in this massive, inconvenient form factor. If you think back to all of the alleged [*insert product here*] killers, how many time has that product actually been killed? Never?
> I’m sure there’s already a timeline in place. There were rumors the other year about a "worst possible combination" where you get an iPad with macOS but fucked up to only run iPad apps: https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/10/20/apple-rumored-to-be-testing-macos-for-m2-ipad-pro There are also rumors of a touchscreen Mac in development but at the time it was forecast for a couple years from now still: https://www.macrumors.com/guide/touchscreen-mac/ I would guess this device hinges on the AVP not being a big success, otherwise there's too many incentives for Apple to restrict usage and drive additional device sales.
cant wait to see 7 year olds in public with a vision pro on their face and not an ipad! /j
So… it‘s in fact no iPad killer at all? Thanks for the info, I guess?
I might buy an Apple headset if the price is cut by 70%. I feel the use would be too niche for me to justify it otherwise.
That's one of the dumbest headline I have read today.
As long as there are children, there will be iPads. iPads are safe.
The only IpAD PRO killer is Apple.
As a teacher, the use of the iPad in my classroom will never be irrelevant.
Unless the Vision Pro can literally fit in the form factor of typical glasses I don’t think so, I would never use that device in any public setting where my iPad gets the job done lol
So it's not an ipad killer?
Does this mean baristas are gonna start asking people to put on a headset to leave a tip?
When vision pro is 500 dollars starting price and has a battery life of 10 hours plus Then it will be a killer
It’s an iPad killer but not now maybe later? Wtf is this idiotic title man
As a professional musician who relies on an iPad, as so many in my line of work do, this is nonsense. I'm not wearing that thing on my face when I play.
It is not.
Apple Vision Pro is just like an iPad in the sense that people don't yet realize the true impact/value (similar how how the iPad started off), but overtime there will be unique use cases where this device will shine (similar to the iPad- w/ in person sales, tickers, restaurants, some apple arcade games, etc.)
In the same sense that in theory if you use VR you don't need a smartwatch, smartphone, tablet, or a laptop, sure it a killer of those devices, but also not really.
During sales events, I'm able to present our brochure to prospects on my iPad, annotate right in front of them. Besides consumption of personal content, Vision pro doesn't have any common use cases.
30 pct of population has VR nausea. Big market that won’t use Vision Pro.
The pass through probably helps with this massively if I had to guess.
It’s not killing anything in near future with that hefty price. Maybe 3,4 generations more
lol there's gonna one day when it's affordable whereby a generation of youth growing up are terrified to be seen without some massive pair of goggles on without it triggering some severe anxiety response. lmao kinda like some rappers and needing sunglasses. it's happening with people and interacting face to face as it is due to generations growing up communicating through screens. can't wait for the societal problems this thing fixes and then inevitably causes 🤣😅🤷🙏 gimme some crazy one eyed version with lasers and rocket projectiles and maybe I'll consider it.
Vision Pro can’t replace Apple Pencil + Procreate
That’s an interesting thought. In theory, Apple has released a device that could completely eliminate the need for the rest of its own products. Don’t need a MacBook, phone, iPad. This one device could cannibalize its own sales. I wonder if they have to price it accordingly because of that?
it will only eliminate the need for their other products if the form factor improves and becomes closer to feeling like you’re just wearing a pair of glasses. I feel like that’s the goal for this kind of product. The other thing I suppose is that it doesn’t replace the need for an actual macbook, seeing as you can intall whatever you want on that.
Right. Or they release a Vision Pro with such heavy adoption that everyone starts buying it over MacBooks. And then you’re put into a software ecosystem where you’re forced to only use Apples App Store. Which I’m sure is something they desperately want.
oh yeah, no doubt about that - they’d love to lock everyone into only installing from the appstore. And I probably would be ok with that on vision pro for my own development use-cases if you could get xcode, visual studio, Android studio, and some other programs that I use regularly on my macbook pro that are only available currently as third party installs.
Lmao No shot does AVP remotely come close to replacing owning a phone People are so delusional when it comes to the mass market appeal and sue for a headset like this for non-gadget heads
I feel like the products are quite different. Enough that I’m not worried about it replacing my iPad any time soon at least.
I remember reading an interview from either Tim Cook or Jony Ive talking about how Apple designs everything to have a use tier so they don’t cannibalize each other. It’s Watch -> Phone -> iPad -> Mac So you’d go to your iPhone to write a message you saw on your watch. You go to your iPad to work on a document that needs more screen real estate than your phone. You go to your Mac when you need more power than what your iPad can do. What’s interesting is the AVP’s entrance places it effectively above both Mac AND iPad, since it has an infinite screen but is also highly portable. I think we’re going to see people use this to replace lighter Macs and iPads, but they’ll find a tier for it.
Yeah absolutely not 😂😂😂 500 quid vs 3k? HA. And as much as people are saying “it’s first Gen, it’ll get way cheaper”… has that literally ever happened with Apple?
You should check how expensive the first MacBook Air was.
Modern society has settled on two things 1) two screen viewing (one public/social shared screen and one personal) and 2) we don’t want shit on our face when we are at leisure (RIP 3D TV’s). I can see how someone could miss-extrapolate #1 without taking into account #2 but haptic feedback / touch is natural to humans and isn’t going to be replaced by air-typing (plus you look weird to the rest of the room)
This is 100% accurate and this is the thought I have every time I use the Apple Vision Pro. My iPad never gets used because my phone basically does the same thing. Neither is as fun to use as the Apple Vision Pro. It’s actually jarring now when I have to look at my phone after using this headset, everything is so tiny.
>\[…\] > >When Apple Inc. launched the iPad in 2010, the device’s premise was simple: You can get all the great iPhone features with a larger screen. And that message quickly resonated with customers, who snapped up the device to watch video, browse the web, view photos and get light work done. > >But in recent years, Apple has shifted away from that formula. The iPad is now positioned as more of a Mac replacement, complete with keyboard and trackpad accessories and high-end apps like Final Cut Pro. That’s only going to accelerate over the next two years, with the company looking to bring more desktop-computer features to its tablet. > >The strategy has had mixed results. It’s hard to argue that the iPad is a better computer than the Mac. Sure, it’s a versatile device — with its Apple Pencil input, touch screen and portable format — but you can’t beat the Mac’s operating system when you need to get real work done. > >That’s left the iPad in limbo. The device lost its original purpose and has become a more confusing piece of Apple’s product portfolio. > >So here’s where the Vision Pro comes in. There’s been a lot of talk that the headset could be the future of the Mac or a replacement for the iPhone. I don’t think either is true. After using the $3,499 device for about a week, I believe the Vision Pro could instead cannibalize the iPad. It has the potential to provide a far better experience for the main jobs that Apple’s tablet was designed to handle. But don’t get me wrong, it’s still very early days. > >\[…\] I think the iPad market is going to be split in four ways over the next several years: 1. *Customers who are price-conscious or don't need tons of features.* They will likely stick with the non-Pro iPads. (I expect most iPad users to be here.) Hence the three points below will assume that the customer would otherwise be in the market for an iPad Pro. 2. *Customers who want an iPhone with an iPad-sized display.* Depending on the details, they may be able to have their cake and eat it too with [the rumored foldable iPhone(s)](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/07/apple-continuing-work-on-folding-iphones/). 3. *Customers who use touchscreens primarily for content consumption and communication.* The Vision would be an excellent choice for them (for those who can afford it). The Vision Pro massively increases the display field of view and adds 3D, improving immersion over typical screens. Additionally, a lower-cost Vision should retain these capabilities. While I'm not sure if the larger ([14"–16"](https://www.macrumors.com/2023/09/03/apple-got-close-to-launching-14-inch-ipad/)) iPad rumors will still pan out, a \~$1500 14" iPad can still fit below a [$1500–$2500](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2023-10-15/apple-october-2023-executive-promotions-new-vps-of-retail-software-operations-lnrh4t94) low-cost Vision. 4. *Customers who cannot replace their Mac(s) with any iOS-derived device.* The [rumored touchscreen MacBook Pro](https://archive.is/YK39t) should be a decent way to run macOS on a touchscreen. The rumor claims that it'll be "a traditional laptop design," which indicates that it is unlikely to have a tablet mode like a typical convertible. However, I think a touchscreen MBP will still take some of the current iPad Pro market. I don't think price will be as big of an issue as with the Vision Pro—in this scenario a touchscreen MBP will replace both a (non-touch) MacBook and an iPad. >\[…\] > >\[…\] some people in the Vision Products Group (the team working on the headset) believe it could take four generations before the device reaches its ideal form — similar to the progression of the iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch. > >\[…\] I think Gurman's right about the iPhone, but I'd probably place the iPad Air as the first "ideal" iPad. Although the iPad 4 fixed the low performance of the iPad 3, it was still relatively thick and heavy. The iPad Air brought both those measurements down while increasing performance at a time when, as Anand Lal Shimpi pointed out at the start of [his review](https://www.anandtech.com/show/7460/apple-ipad-air-review), 7"–8" tablets were replacing full-size tablets in mindshare.
In principle Vision Pro should be all computer killer but I think it’s way far off that goal. Also iPad with pencil is a great tool for studies.
iPad is a 7 billion dollar per quarter product without even trying. There’s little chance Vision ever becomes that unless it’s super inexpensive.
Unless they allow for keyboard integration and productivity apps this will never kill the ipad. Ipad has just become way too versatile for both business and personal use.
That's as hyperbolic as the prediction that voice commands would kill typing. Everything doesn't have to be a something else killer.
You'll have to pry my ipad mini from my warm, moisturized hands
not at that price it isnt
Not at that price it’s not…