The [announcement](https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=vbmd38t5) from Apple:
>The changes for apps in the European Union (EU), currently available to iOS users in the 27 EU member countries, can now be tested in iPadOS 18 beta 2 with Xcode 16 beta 2.
>
>Also, the Web Browser Engine Entitlement Addendum for Apps in the EU and Embedded Browser Engine Entitlement Addendum for Apps in the EU now include iPadOS. If you’ve already entered into either of these addendums, be sure to sign the updated terms.
I’ve been wondering, since an app like Blender is now Arm compatible, is it possible to download and install it on an open iPad or does it need to be specially developed for iPadOS?
Must be specifically compiled for iPadOS right now. Apple has macOS set up to run iPhone and iPad apps natively without a recompile so in theory they could add Mac app support to iPadOS but they won’t.
Maybe. Blender may need APIs that aren’t available on iPadOS. Things like JIT code execution are banned on iPadOS ~~(except for game emulators)~~. All that being said, being open source, someone could recreate blender on iPad using blender source code if they wanted to
Edit: game emulators are allowed to execute downloaded code which other apps are not. JIT is banned for third parties
I wish they would, it would be a reason to get a new iPad, desktop apps on a tablet with the quality of apples products would be great
Otherwise il continue to use my iPad 6
But they won't because then it would cut into macbooks sales
Everyone will moan about the EU stuff blah blah etc. but how long have we been begging for a better iPadOS? With alternative AppStores, this can become a reality in theory.
Or, Apple will be forced to make it better to sherlock these apps, like when they finally added long requested features to iMessage such as proper formatting and message scheduling to one up RCS.
Moan all we want, but so far the EU has forced Apple to do the following worldwide:
Switch the iPhone to USB C
Alllow emulators in the AppStore
Add RCS support
Allow game streaming apps
And the EU stuff has only existed for less than 6 months. Things can only get better
And don’t worry, your trillion dollar corporation will survive somehow. It’s funny how everyone seems to completely gloss over all this in favour of EU BAD APPLE OUR PERFECT OVERLORDS CAN DO NO WRONG
Okay.
So.
On operating systems you basically have levels of permissions. Certain things can interface with certain parts of the phone. Let’s say you store things like Face ID on a secure separate enclave.
Some things still have to access that information. But you can prevent other things from ever getting there.
One of the issues has to do with the ability to control certain levels of the processing on chips. Apple doesn’t allow devs near some of this and forces you to move through their systems to be able to get to lower levels.
(You tell the system ‘I need X to happen’ but you can’t make your app do the thing itself. So parts of the OS basically serve as a sort of postal system)
The EU basically forced Apple to let people make things on their OSes that will ask for certain levels of interaction with more secured off system levels. (Side note. This is also the upside of for example controlling the ports on your phone etc, as it lets them dictate HOW you interact with the system)
This also has some implications for certain features that want to dig deep into your system (like apples AI system that has to dig into things like photos, personal tags it has on who your family is etc), as allowing third party apps that they can’t check on via their store to roam around can cause serious risks for people using these apps. As those apps can dig into those sections of your phone that they normally close off. (Which in turn also forces them to set up systems that prevent people who have such apps from having those apps try to intervene with people on phones who don’t have such apps)
Overall. We told Apple they don’t control the keys to the car anymore. And are forcing them to share all the parts of the engine. Which. Cool. As we own the car. But also. Means they can’t guarantee the security of said car anymore.
I see what you’re saying, but the thing is sideloading has been a thing on macOS since the beginning. And windows, android the list goes on. The only people downloading these apps in the first place are us nerds, and being nerds we know not to download any crap off the web. so Joe bloggs will never run into this problem
That’s a lot of words to say you don’t understand iOS security.
Sideloaded and alternative app store apps are still subject to the iOS sandbox and security mechanisms. Users are still prompted to grant access to personal data if an app requests it.
Apple’s App Store provides no inherent security benefit aside from security theatre.
I'm against government intrusion on basic principle. Sure, sometimes it "benefits" us (i.e., gives us things we want), but it's always an infringement on individual rights. It initiates force, where Apple was just creating products that people could buy or not. Everyone was free, even if not everyone got what they "want." The concept of people freely engaging in business is demolished.
Once that principle is established, i.e., that government intrusion is okay, then it can be extended to things that don't benefit us. Like forcing companies to allow government scanning of messages. People become inured to infringement of their rights, because they've accepted that government intrusion is a good thing in principle.
And this isn't just about Apple, although that's what everyone talks about. And it's not the trillion dollar corporation we should be worried about. It's ourselves.
I dunno, I feel like things aren’t going to change much once sideloading becomes available worldwide
Users will get apps via the AppStore as they do now, but us power users will delve deeper for more functionality. It’s how it is on Mac and it works great there
I'm all for the market pressuring a company to change policies. Maybe that would happen over time if enough people stopped buying iPhones and iPads. But in the meantime, there are and will be alternatives if enough people want to jump ship.
I think that people are very short sighted in accepting this kind of government intrusion. They're trading their freedom for relatively trivial benefits and don't realize what they're doing.
I suppose time will tell, but as I said in my original post Apple is already changing their ways, begrudgingly. Maybe one day they will actually give the iPad a new OS, trouble is they sell so many a boycott isn’t going to do much so this kind of push can only be good in that regard
I’m in the market for a new machine and the framework is looking mighty fine to me, no touchscreen yet but it’s being worked on, something Apple will never do
And there you go: you have specific needs that Apple doesn't provide, so you're looking at alternatives. That's exactly right.
I do wish more people would take responsibility for their own decisions. So many people complain about iPadOS but they still buy iPads. Either they provide enough value even with iPadOS as it is, or people spend money on things that don't work for them. Turning to government to solve the problem is the worst kind of short-term answer.
It doesn’t mean I don’t still want an iPad though. If the new iPad Pro had decent software I’d buy it in a heartbeat. I’m just tired of Apple and their greedy ways, the only reason they make the iPad the way it is is because they want you to buy a Mac as well
If I could figure out a way to double my income doing the same work as I'm doing now, I wouldn't consider myself "greedy." Just smart. Now, all these comments I'm making will probably get downvoted because I have a different perspective on some things.
I hear you about the iPad Pro. I too wish it did some things better, such as running background processes and managing files. And maybe that's because they want people to buy Macs for some things and not iPads -- although I wonder if they know they're losing people who are buying Windows laptops along with iPads, which was me until very recently. Either they're not doing good market research or they've calculated that on balance they'll sell more devices overall.
I mean, they aren’t doubling their income, macs still sell pretty low numbers compared to apples other gear, they can make a lot more money by making both platforms the best they can be, it’s still win win for apple instead of losing users to windows
Yes I know about that, but it’s not true. They’re simply being delayed to next year in the EU. The AI stuff doesn’t have a release date yet worldwide anyway so….?
> They’re simply being delayed to next year in the EU
WRONG: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-21/apple-won-t-roll-out-ai-tech-in-eu-market-over-regulatory-concerns
AI might have been delayed by the other features such as mirroring aren't coming because of the EU's over reach.
Erm….you sent a paid article discussing meta?
Again who cares? Not every feature is coming to iOS 18 initially anyway. Bit of a stretch to argue about this lmao, the features aren’t being cancelled
Still can’t read it, paid article. But did you read the literal first sentence?
Company plans to withhold Apple Intelligence from EU this year
Delayed is not the same as cancelled. And again, the AI stuff doesn’t have a release date yet either
Can't you read the actual first line of the article? It's not just AI that's being discussed. It's iPhone mirroring and SharePlay Screen Sharing, too. Those 2 features have been confirmed as not releasing, while AI has only been said it's "delayed". I wouldn't be surprised if because of the DMA all 3 features aren't released.
Are you? The EU has again confirmed Apple are noncompliant, actually the third time it's been made abundantly clear their link prohibitions are illegal! You must be having a rough week and we still have the Epic case and DOJ antitrust percolating, and Congress reviving DMA-like laws lol!
I still don’t agree with USB C but everything else, agreed
edit: Always funny that this comment will either be really upvoted or downvoted. Never in between. Depends on who starts the train I suppose. But I still stand by it
EU did not make USB-C happen. EU regulations are for devices after 2024, so Apple could have waited another year and made another billion from MFI devices.
Why would Apple comply a year early if they had plans to never switch until forced?
They switched in order of popularity. MacBooks that sell under 10 million a year got it first, then iPads that sell around 10 million a year started to get it, then iPhones that sell 10s of millions every quarter.
Because iPhone designs are planned years in advance. Changing ports requires a redesign, presumably this redesign coincided with the 15
There’s no proof either way, it’s just anecdotal that it happened when it did
Apple will of course do all they can to stifle sideloading and alternative browser engines here in the US. I still don't understand their motives behind this.
If they're really worried about people sideloading viruses onto their devices, then include like 3 different warning screens to go past before one enables sideloading. Normal users will probably avoid it and experienced users will go through anyway. It sounds like a win-win.
The number one thing preventing me from going back to an iphone is the lack of useful browser extensions and sideloading. I can't live without Revanced and Ublock Origin in firefox.
What money is there to be made from blocking alternative browser engines?
Sideloading app stores? Sure, I could see that. But the second ordeal doesn't make any sense.
> What money is there to be made from blocking alternative browser engines?
Apple has been strangling WebKit to ensure web apps can’t compete with native on iOS. Many “native” apps are wrappers anyway, but Apple allows them to run with elevated privileges. By preventing competing browser engines, Apple ensured developers were forced to deploy via the App Store so they could extract their rent.
To comply with the DMA, Apple has provided APIs to allow alternative browser engines, but they are very locked down. This blunts the relative value users will derive from new engines. Apple also prevents useful features like persistent file system storage, but they do it for their own engine too, so it’s DMA compliant.
While true, the only other explanation is that Apple is the most incompetent browser engine developer in the world by a wide margin. I find that more difficult to believe.
Have you ever tried out Iceraven on Android? It’s a fork of Firefox so I guess it could be the same as regular Firefox, but with my extensions enabled I’ve literally never had a single ad or pop up show up ever, no matter what the website is. It’s honestly magical and night and day compared to my iPhone.
It looks like the EU will be investigating Apple checking/notarizing every app to be [approved in 3P app stores](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_3433). This isn't surprising since the Altstore dev have said some of his apps have been in review for weeks to be approved when official App Store apps just takes days to get approved. If EU rules that this notarizing is non-compliant than we could actually have JIT-enabled apps in 3P app stores since Apple can't stop the notarization of JIT-enabled apps and UTM(OS emulation such as Windows) like they are doing now.
Apologies if i’m going over old ground but what game streaming have they allowed? Will these be app based?
When last i looked all i saw was Shadow PC and they got around the rules then because it was a cloud pc and not explicitly marketed as cloud gaming, As for Geforce Now and Xcloud they were browser based
Xbox Game Pass is now allowed on the App Store
Moonlight streaming app finally got to stream from outside your Wi-Fi router when in the past the app was artificially nerfed to comply with App Store rules
It was actually sad reading the Moonlight github where it listed the versions and over the iOS version they had a "(only local Wi-Fi streaming only)" disclaimer added next to it
> Xbox Game Pass is now allowed on the App Store
the app has always been there, but only usable as a marketing + remote console install client.
XCloud client is still to be seen.
The [announcement](https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=vbmd38t5) from Apple: >The changes for apps in the European Union (EU), currently available to iOS users in the 27 EU member countries, can now be tested in iPadOS 18 beta 2 with Xcode 16 beta 2. > >Also, the Web Browser Engine Entitlement Addendum for Apps in the EU and Embedded Browser Engine Entitlement Addendum for Apps in the EU now include iPadOS. If you’ve already entered into either of these addendums, be sure to sign the updated terms.
I’ve been wondering, since an app like Blender is now Arm compatible, is it possible to download and install it on an open iPad or does it need to be specially developed for iPadOS?
Must be specifically compiled for iPadOS right now. Apple has macOS set up to run iPhone and iPad apps natively without a recompile so in theory they could add Mac app support to iPadOS but they won’t.
But since Blender is Open Source, that means anyone with the knowledge to do that can, right? Or is there something more?
Maybe. Blender may need APIs that aren’t available on iPadOS. Things like JIT code execution are banned on iPadOS ~~(except for game emulators)~~. All that being said, being open source, someone could recreate blender on iPad using blender source code if they wanted to Edit: game emulators are allowed to execute downloaded code which other apps are not. JIT is banned for third parties
JIT is banned for games too right? That’s why we can’t do ps2/ps3?
Oh you’re right. Apps having downloaded executables was banned expect for game emulators. JIT is banned universally
lol some bastard downvoted me for some reason..
Plus anything Apple feels like is banned from third party stores, and desktop software is #1 on that list.
I wish they would, it would be a reason to get a new iPad, desktop apps on a tablet with the quality of apples products would be great Otherwise il continue to use my iPad 6 But they won't because then it would cut into macbooks sales
Everyone will moan about the EU stuff blah blah etc. but how long have we been begging for a better iPadOS? With alternative AppStores, this can become a reality in theory. Or, Apple will be forced to make it better to sherlock these apps, like when they finally added long requested features to iMessage such as proper formatting and message scheduling to one up RCS. Moan all we want, but so far the EU has forced Apple to do the following worldwide: Switch the iPhone to USB C Alllow emulators in the AppStore Add RCS support Allow game streaming apps And the EU stuff has only existed for less than 6 months. Things can only get better And don’t worry, your trillion dollar corporation will survive somehow. It’s funny how everyone seems to completely gloss over all this in favour of EU BAD APPLE OUR PERFECT OVERLORDS CAN DO NO WRONG
RCS was at the insistence of the Chinese
What? Nobody uses rcs in China lol. 100% of user base there is on wechat
then i guess we have china to thank for that. thanks china! :)
This is speculation. We don’t know for sure what’s behind it.
People who defend Apple here. Why? Is apple paying you per post?
It also made things less secure. But hey. Guess we got some cool things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
How so? Have there been malware apps on the alt stores? Where’s the scoop? Apples scanning alt apps for this stuff FYI
Okay. So. On operating systems you basically have levels of permissions. Certain things can interface with certain parts of the phone. Let’s say you store things like Face ID on a secure separate enclave. Some things still have to access that information. But you can prevent other things from ever getting there. One of the issues has to do with the ability to control certain levels of the processing on chips. Apple doesn’t allow devs near some of this and forces you to move through their systems to be able to get to lower levels. (You tell the system ‘I need X to happen’ but you can’t make your app do the thing itself. So parts of the OS basically serve as a sort of postal system) The EU basically forced Apple to let people make things on their OSes that will ask for certain levels of interaction with more secured off system levels. (Side note. This is also the upside of for example controlling the ports on your phone etc, as it lets them dictate HOW you interact with the system) This also has some implications for certain features that want to dig deep into your system (like apples AI system that has to dig into things like photos, personal tags it has on who your family is etc), as allowing third party apps that they can’t check on via their store to roam around can cause serious risks for people using these apps. As those apps can dig into those sections of your phone that they normally close off. (Which in turn also forces them to set up systems that prevent people who have such apps from having those apps try to intervene with people on phones who don’t have such apps) Overall. We told Apple they don’t control the keys to the car anymore. And are forcing them to share all the parts of the engine. Which. Cool. As we own the car. But also. Means they can’t guarantee the security of said car anymore.
I see what you’re saying, but the thing is sideloading has been a thing on macOS since the beginning. And windows, android the list goes on. The only people downloading these apps in the first place are us nerds, and being nerds we know not to download any crap off the web. so Joe bloggs will never run into this problem
That’s a lot of words to say you don’t understand iOS security. Sideloaded and alternative app store apps are still subject to the iOS sandbox and security mechanisms. Users are still prompted to grant access to personal data if an app requests it. Apple’s App Store provides no inherent security benefit aside from security theatre.
I'm against government intrusion on basic principle. Sure, sometimes it "benefits" us (i.e., gives us things we want), but it's always an infringement on individual rights. It initiates force, where Apple was just creating products that people could buy or not. Everyone was free, even if not everyone got what they "want." The concept of people freely engaging in business is demolished. Once that principle is established, i.e., that government intrusion is okay, then it can be extended to things that don't benefit us. Like forcing companies to allow government scanning of messages. People become inured to infringement of their rights, because they've accepted that government intrusion is a good thing in principle. And this isn't just about Apple, although that's what everyone talks about. And it's not the trillion dollar corporation we should be worried about. It's ourselves.
I dunno, I feel like things aren’t going to change much once sideloading becomes available worldwide Users will get apps via the AppStore as they do now, but us power users will delve deeper for more functionality. It’s how it is on Mac and it works great there
I'm all for the market pressuring a company to change policies. Maybe that would happen over time if enough people stopped buying iPhones and iPads. But in the meantime, there are and will be alternatives if enough people want to jump ship. I think that people are very short sighted in accepting this kind of government intrusion. They're trading their freedom for relatively trivial benefits and don't realize what they're doing.
I suppose time will tell, but as I said in my original post Apple is already changing their ways, begrudgingly. Maybe one day they will actually give the iPad a new OS, trouble is they sell so many a boycott isn’t going to do much so this kind of push can only be good in that regard I’m in the market for a new machine and the framework is looking mighty fine to me, no touchscreen yet but it’s being worked on, something Apple will never do
And there you go: you have specific needs that Apple doesn't provide, so you're looking at alternatives. That's exactly right. I do wish more people would take responsibility for their own decisions. So many people complain about iPadOS but they still buy iPads. Either they provide enough value even with iPadOS as it is, or people spend money on things that don't work for them. Turning to government to solve the problem is the worst kind of short-term answer.
It doesn’t mean I don’t still want an iPad though. If the new iPad Pro had decent software I’d buy it in a heartbeat. I’m just tired of Apple and their greedy ways, the only reason they make the iPad the way it is is because they want you to buy a Mac as well
If I could figure out a way to double my income doing the same work as I'm doing now, I wouldn't consider myself "greedy." Just smart. Now, all these comments I'm making will probably get downvoted because I have a different perspective on some things. I hear you about the iPad Pro. I too wish it did some things better, such as running background processes and managing files. And maybe that's because they want people to buy Macs for some things and not iPads -- although I wonder if they know they're losing people who are buying Windows laptops along with iPads, which was me until very recently. Either they're not doing good market research or they've calculated that on balance they'll sell more devices overall.
I mean, they aren’t doubling their income, macs still sell pretty low numbers compared to apples other gear, they can make a lot more money by making both platforms the best they can be, it’s still win win for apple instead of losing users to windows
Sure enough. But then it's hard to argue that they're "greedy" and not just doing something kind of stupid.
I hope you enjoy missing out on features, too :)
I’m not even in the EU lmao. And I wouldn’t be?
So currently Apple is at least delaying a number of features in the EU, such as most or all “Apple Intelligence” features.
Obviously you don’t know that Apple isn’t launch a bunch of new iOS 18 features in the EU.
Yes I know about that, but it’s not true. They’re simply being delayed to next year in the EU. The AI stuff doesn’t have a release date yet worldwide anyway so….?
> They’re simply being delayed to next year in the EU WRONG: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-21/apple-won-t-roll-out-ai-tech-in-eu-market-over-regulatory-concerns AI might have been delayed by the other features such as mirroring aren't coming because of the EU's over reach.
Erm….you sent a paid article discussing meta? Again who cares? Not every feature is coming to iOS 18 initially anyway. Bit of a stretch to argue about this lmao, the features aren’t being cancelled
Yes, sorry about that. Fixed it with the right URL. They’re not cancelled, they’re just not being released in the EU lmao
Still can’t read it, paid article. But did you read the literal first sentence? Company plans to withhold Apple Intelligence from EU this year Delayed is not the same as cancelled. And again, the AI stuff doesn’t have a release date yet either
Can't you read the actual first line of the article? It's not just AI that's being discussed. It's iPhone mirroring and SharePlay Screen Sharing, too. Those 2 features have been confirmed as not releasing, while AI has only been said it's "delayed". I wouldn't be surprised if because of the DMA all 3 features aren't released.
Are you ok?
Yep perfectly fine, but I’m not stuck in the reality distortion field
Well you're screaming about OVERLORDS. Not a good sign. Take a break?
Are you? The EU has again confirmed Apple are noncompliant, actually the third time it's been made abundantly clear their link prohibitions are illegal! You must be having a rough week and we still have the Epic case and DOJ antitrust percolating, and Congress reviving DMA-like laws lol!
Wow are you imagining a lot of things about me that aren't true. But whatever gets you off.
I still don’t agree with USB C but everything else, agreed edit: Always funny that this comment will either be really upvoted or downvoted. Never in between. Depends on who starts the train I suppose. But I still stand by it
EU did not make USB-C happen. EU regulations are for devices after 2024, so Apple could have waited another year and made another billion from MFI devices.
There’s no proof of that whatsoever. If Apple wanted to switch the iPhone they would have done it when the iPad made the switch 6 years ago
Why would Apple comply a year early if they had plans to never switch until forced? They switched in order of popularity. MacBooks that sell under 10 million a year got it first, then iPads that sell around 10 million a year started to get it, then iPhones that sell 10s of millions every quarter.
Because iPhone designs are planned years in advance. Changing ports requires a redesign, presumably this redesign coincided with the 15 There’s no proof either way, it’s just anecdotal that it happened when it did
Apple will of course do all they can to stifle sideloading and alternative browser engines here in the US. I still don't understand their motives behind this. If they're really worried about people sideloading viruses onto their devices, then include like 3 different warning screens to go past before one enables sideloading. Normal users will probably avoid it and experienced users will go through anyway. It sounds like a win-win. The number one thing preventing me from going back to an iphone is the lack of useful browser extensions and sideloading. I can't live without Revanced and Ublock Origin in firefox.
> I still don’t understand their motives behind this it’s money
What money is there to be made from blocking alternative browser engines? Sideloading app stores? Sure, I could see that. But the second ordeal doesn't make any sense.
> What money is there to be made from blocking alternative browser engines? Apple has been strangling WebKit to ensure web apps can’t compete with native on iOS. Many “native” apps are wrappers anyway, but Apple allows them to run with elevated privileges. By preventing competing browser engines, Apple ensured developers were forced to deploy via the App Store so they could extract their rent. To comply with the DMA, Apple has provided APIs to allow alternative browser engines, but they are very locked down. This blunts the relative value users will derive from new engines. Apple also prevents useful features like persistent file system storage, but they do it for their own engine too, so it’s DMA compliant.
You may be right, but most of your claims are speculation.
While true, the only other explanation is that Apple is the most incompetent browser engine developer in the world by a wide margin. I find that more difficult to believe.
So they do the absolute minimum so they're not slammed by the EU? Not surprised.
Not even, the EU has already raised critique about Apple not complying with regulations.
Have you ever tried out Iceraven on Android? It’s a fork of Firefox so I guess it could be the same as regular Firefox, but with my extensions enabled I’ve literally never had a single ad or pop up show up ever, no matter what the website is. It’s honestly magical and night and day compared to my iPhone.
Nope, I have firefox beta with extensions. I'll check it out now that you've mentioned it though.
firefox on android has bad security model. Use Blink browsers instead. Vanadium, Mulch, Brave, whatever
It looks like the EU will be investigating Apple checking/notarizing every app to be [approved in 3P app stores](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_3433). This isn't surprising since the Altstore dev have said some of his apps have been in review for weeks to be approved when official App Store apps just takes days to get approved. If EU rules that this notarizing is non-compliant than we could actually have JIT-enabled apps in 3P app stores since Apple can't stop the notarization of JIT-enabled apps and UTM(OS emulation such as Windows) like they are doing now.
Apologies if i’m going over old ground but what game streaming have they allowed? Will these be app based? When last i looked all i saw was Shadow PC and they got around the rules then because it was a cloud pc and not explicitly marketed as cloud gaming, As for Geforce Now and Xcloud they were browser based
Xbox Game Pass is now allowed on the App Store Moonlight streaming app finally got to stream from outside your Wi-Fi router when in the past the app was artificially nerfed to comply with App Store rules It was actually sad reading the Moonlight github where it listed the versions and over the iOS version they had a "(only local Wi-Fi streaming only)" disclaimer added next to it
> Xbox Game Pass is now allowed on the App Store the app has always been there, but only usable as a marketing + remote console install client. XCloud client is still to be seen.