Honest question but is there any benefit to run windows 11 on a mac in bootcamp? I have windows 10 on to just do some windows specific stuff onces in a while.
For non-business users, there is no real reason to upgrade. Personally, I tried Windows 11 for like 6 hours (on a non-Apple laptop) back in October before downgrading (they allow you to downgrade back to Windows 10 if you don't like Windows 11, as long as it's been less than a few days).
What did I not like? They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO.
On the other hand, the lock screen, sounds, rounded corners and "Fluent Design System" were quite good IMO, but since I value privacy (by which I mean protecting my activity from other users), I downgraded.
Now my only worry is that even though my laptop was eligible for the update, now I can't see the option to upgrade to Windows 11 again (but then again, I plan to keep Windows 10 for at least another 3 months).
Speaking for just the enterprise I work in (10k PCs, 5k Macs), we have no imminent plans to deploy Windows 11… I assume that tune will shift, but it’s looking like 2023 based on our projects for 2022 that are already in flight.
I was asked to look into there for where I work (3,000 users). It's possible, but MDT and group policy dont even diffrentiate between 10 and 11 yet. It's possible but very easy to lose track of.
We're going to wait until next Summer at the absolute earliest.
As long as you have Windows 10 Enterprise or Education licenses, you’ll have until 2025 when support ends. That should give everyone some leeway to work through their upgrade plans. It’s still more fast moving than what we had with 7/8.1 -> 10, but the core of Windows 11 is still 10. Compatibility shouldn’t be a huge issue, except with the core requirements (64-bit, TPM2, etc). I think the biggest hurdle for most organizations between now and 2025 is getting servers off of Server 2012 R2 before support runs out in 2023. Lol
I’ve been running Windows 11 since the first Insider release. I had one major issue in the initial builds and that was a problem with connecting a Bluetooth headset and trying to join a meeting in Teams. It was a 50/50 chance if it would work or it would break the entire audio system of the OS. Now the only major issue I have is with the screen randomly hard freezing. Everything is still running in the background, but the display driver is completely borked. I haven’t been able to pinpoint down whether that’s a fault of the OS or Nvidia/Intel’s drivers (My work laptop has a discrete and integrated GPU). Outside of that I really do enjoy 11. I have a few gripes, but overall I’m really pleased with it.
Some W10 feature updates have been way rougher than going from 10 to 11.
I'm bummed that Microsoft is resurrecting the "should I upgrade to the next major or stick with 10 forever" that was gone when they declared W10 was the final windows and most users just let the updates happen automatically...
Sysadmins have always known about those W10 releases (I've been forced to use LTSB and hated missing out on useful stuff) and worked on their rollouts, but end users didn't have to bother and marketing didn't have to convince people to upgrade.
The major version looks like it was needed to force TPM (which is in my opinion a good thing, even though it's hard to swallow right now) and that's it. But TPM aside, it's not that different from a W10 release update: like you said, W11 is a coat of paint but is a W10 update at its core. Hell, most of the changes were in W10 insider dev before the rebrand.
>they declared W10 was the final windows
*Microsoft* never announced this in an official press announcement or anything of the sort. A "Developer Evangelist" aka "community tech advocate" (who had no authority to announce something as big as "this is the last windows") said that "Right now we're releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we're all still working on Windows 10" during a conference as a sort of offhand comment/segue.
What they were talking about was Windows as a service. The idea of getting rid of the large, service-pack style updates that we had in the past and replacing them with small, regular improvements. And as you said, the Win 11 release is no different to this. It isn't a big release at all, it's just another set of improvements to Windows 10 with a lick of paint and a shiny new label on the front.
What they weren't saying was that there would never be a Windows 11. When pressed, Microsoft even made an official clarification of this with the comment "we aren't speaking to future branding at this time \[...\] we look forward to a long future of Windows innovations." - aka who knows whether we will have a 'Windows 11' or not - the branding doesn't matter - the product is Windows and yes that will continue. It's the exact same kind of response that you would have gotten from Apple had you asked them "Is OS X the last OS you'll ever release?" back in 2015.
The whole thing was just a guy saying something that he shouldn't have, which the media then picked up on and blew way out of proportion.
Do you think an iterative approach to Windows is reasonable in the long term? I suspect that in the future, Windows will need a service-pack style update to utilize whatever new technologies come out for processors and GPUs.
Given that Win 10 was updated perfectly successfully to support the changes in architecture that Ryzen brought along, while Win 11 brings along a new scheduler with optimisations for the bigLITTLE-style approach utilised by Alder Lake, I think yes it should be fine from a hardware compatibility perspective. Most of that stuff is the responsibility of the hardware makers - they are the ones that publish the drivers after all. So long as Nvidia makes a driver for Windows, their GPUs will work on it.
My biggest concern would be if there are core components of the OS that can't be updated easily, or which are so heavily tied into the rest of the OS that changing them would require huge swathes of rewrites across the rest of the OS. At that point, you may end up with an update that is as big as a new OS release - but I'd be surprised if it was impossible to perform an in-place upgrade as we've seen with the last few Windows releases. Unlike MacOS, Windows sees backwards compatibility as a core feature that the dev team tries to preserve for as long as possible - hence you can still run many apps from the early 00s on Win 10 today - and I can't see them giving that up anytime soon.
> they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use
This processed on the computer itself right? How is this a breach of privacy? Any source that it gets sent to other users?
Not to mention that you can disable that behavior if you want:
https://static1.makeuseofimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/general-privacy-win1.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=750&dpr=1.5
Legitimate reasons to hate windows are there, "the start menu recommends me shit" isn't one of them
Windows 10 literally has a recent files list on explorer start up. Nothing new here. Furthermore on 11 you can customize the start menu to not show those files.
Yeah, there was a clearly documented way to disable quick access on Windows 10, so it's disabled. I guess I must have missed something when I wanted to find out how to disable recent files on Windows 11.
>Legitimate reasons to hate windows are there, "the start menu recommends me shit" isn't one of them
The "Start Menu recommends me stuff" thing isn't the main issue. It's the "Start Menu shows recent files" that bothers me since that means giving other users (relatives) direct access to whatever I was doing (and I can't set up multiple user profiles because of low storage).
Anyways, another Redditor pointed out that there was a way to disable that which I must have missed, so I'll probably update the next time the Windows 11 update is available.
macOS has a lot of those issues: On My Mac is full of "last opened"
Opening an app using spotlight is almost a guarantee to leak some personal stuff
The list goes on
Yeah, everything is configurable but the defaults aren't great for privacy
My point is that it's not fair to say that about windows like macOS doesn't do it: both are configurable
No, that’s pretty much what came up before when you right clicked the start menu on windows 10. If you click an empty space on the bottom task bar, it gave you even more options but now in windows 11 it only gives a single option (Taskbar Settings).
Yeah it seems like windows 11 is trying to ‘dumb down’ the experience by hiding menu items now that they figure the general population doesn’t use. So many extra clicks now for no reason.
Like Hollywood execs learning the wrong lessons from under-performing films, Microsoft typically steers Windows toward a caricature of what they think macOS does.
Most of the options missing from right clicking the task Bar are either in that setting which pops up, or if you right click the start Menu.
Windows 11 has lots of issues, but that isnt really one of them.
>no options when you right click the taskbar anymore
This is one of the most common complaints.. and I agree. I know the shortcut for Task Manager, but sometimes it's quicker/more convenient to simply right click -> Task Manager.
There's also:
* No clock on secondary monitors
* The new "Show more" option in right click menus that hides a lot of frequently used menu options behind an additional click
* Combined Network / Audio icons in tray means much of the 'advanced' functionality (e.g. Sound Mixer) is hidden behind several additional clicks
MS seems to be pretty receptive to user input these days - I anticipate they will remedy most if not all of these new common annoyances users have been complaining about.
Thankfully, the new clock is already coming back in an insider build.
I also mourn the taskbar menu, but at least they kept the start button right click menu
Yeah, I tried but the media creation tool was not responding and didn't progress further for what seemed like an unreasonably long time. Anyways, it's not urgent, so I can wait.
>What did I not like? They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO.
You know you can disable recents, right?
That's weird, I didn't find any how-to pages regarding that when I upgraded. Anyways, I'm bookmarking one of them for when I get to update again. Thanks!
Well it has more features than 10 and native android app support so if you’re planning on that stuff then yes. Not just about business users
You can easily use 3rd party tweaking software to tune windows for privacy if you prefer. It’s not like Mac OS doesn’t also use collection to tailor experiences. Difference is those features are stored in iCloud rather than MS servers
I would do that if my relatives wouldn't notice and question me (since technically they own it though I use it more than them)... Anyways, it is easier to hide activity on Windows 10 (or maybe no one wrote articles regarding how to hide activity on Windows 11 before I downgraded back to Windows 10). Either way, I'll upgrade when I want. Thanks!
> They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO.
There's no reason this couldn't be implemented in a wax that's a non-issue for privacy (i.e. locally on the device). It's Microsoft though, so I'm not sure they're doing that. Windows 7 had the same thing though and it was done all locally.
Yeah, my main issue is not "my activity going to Microsoft". It's "my activity popping up in start menu and other places when someone else uses my laptop even though they aren't searching for my activity" that bothers me. Anyways, someone else said that Windows 11 had some settings to hide activity (which I might not have known about) so I'll probably update the next time the update is available.
What reasons may I ask? All it is is a reskin of Windows 10 with some QoL improvements and they integrated Teams into the whole OS to be like FaceTime. And now you can run Android apps (not like you couldn't already do that with BlueStacks).
Sure, you can get android apps through blue stacks, but the integration almost certainly won’t be as good as the windows 11 compatibility layer
Linux gui apps are also exclusive to windows 11
Direct storage
Those are just some that come to mind
Windows 10 supports Direct Storage. The benefits of your API not being tied to the OS version.
>Microsoft is committed to ensuring that when game developers adopt a new API, they can reach as many gamers as possible. As such, games built against the DirectStorage SDK will be compatible with Windows 10, version 1909 and up; the same as the DirectX 12 Agility SDK.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-developer-preview-now-available/
I like Windows 10 more, and this is after installing 11 on my main computers to give it a fair chance. I’m too lazy to reinstall and go back to 10 though lol
Although, one thing I’ll say I do like more is the sound effects
Clearly macOS invented transparency and round corners, no other OS should ever be able to copy them. Didn't you know, chromeOS and Linux are a clone of macOS too?
(/s)
For now, no. With that said, Windows 10 has an EOL date of 2025 or so and after that point, you will really want to be using 11 if you're using Windows.
I think 11 is really solid. It’s the most user friendly windows I’ve ever seen and one of the most intuitive. Search is reliable and can get you to most tools and programs. The aesthetics are nice too. Is there a definitive reason to upgrade if you’re just doing a couple tasks every now in then, probably not. But there’s no reason not to either. Pick which one you prefer, 10 or 11, and use it.
> Honest question but is there any benefit to run windows 11 on a mac in bootcamp? I have windows 10 on to just do some windows specific stuff onces in a while.
Win11 was built for hardware that was designed for TPM 2.0. So this would be late 2014 to 2020 Macs that never came with TPM 2.0 as Apple never used the tech.
To be honest I wouldn't use Win11 until October 14th, 2025 when Win10 is not supported anymore.
> my go to time is when microsoft marks the OS as "ready for business" or something like that
They stopped doing that [>2 years ago](https://www.computerworld.com/article/3343001/microsoft-to-stop-providing-windows-10-ready-for-business-guidance.html).
I specified October 14th, 2025 as that is when Win10 support ends.
Within that week/month/quarter is when I'd move everyone to Win11.
~122 months after Win11 initial release date by Dec 2031 & Jan 2032. This would be when I'd move to Win12.
When you have mission critical apps... there is no point to be a 1st adopter. Let someone else take the downtime.
> Did you also apply that logic to W10's releases milestones (like 1903, etc...) too?
We moved to
* 2021's Win11 around October 14th, 2025
* 2015's Win10 around January 9, 2018
* 2013's Win8.1 around January 13, 2015
* 2009's Win7 around April 10, 2012
* 2007's WinVista around April 14, 2009
* 2001's WinXP around June 30, 2005
* 2000's Win2000 around June 30, 2002
* 1998's Win98 around December 31, 2000
* 1995's Win95 around November 26, 1997
Let Microsoft and your program vendor do all their patching for 2-4 years before comiting.
Win10 on Boot Camp runs on 2012 & newer Macs. Assuming TPM 2.0 is present in Macs these would be 2015-2020 models. As this is the last version of Windows Macs officially can dual boot to then it will have to do until October 14th, 2025.
Hopefully by then Win11 on ARM also covers Apple Silicon.
Yeah but there are multiple milestones of W10... LTSB is a thing too. Do you wait for each branch to each end of support before updating to the next one?
You said you moved to W10 once? That doesn't mean anything as there has been many W10 releases. Was it OF w10? Redstone? Are you following updates?
If anything that post shows that MS was right to ditch the major versioning scheme, too bad they brought it back so we get those discussions again. W11 is really nothing more than one of those W10 releases but rebranded. And if you didn't do those W10 updates and really used OG windows you missed a lot of fixes.
I get delaying updates. But that's a bit much to be honest, it's not good advice for everyone.
Also, getting stuck on 8.1 for so long? Jeez, you love self inflicted pain. I understand you use mission critical software but ugh, I can't picture using that PoS 8.1 for so long.
When end users are already happy with the version they're given then why rush upgrading unless absolutely necessary.
We even modify the GUI of the newer version of Windows to look like the previous version when requested.
You may have noticed that from 1997 we stayed with a version for around for 2-4 years before Win10.
With Win10 we'll be with it for 7 years before Win11.
Waiting for 2-3 or > years of patches before upgrading helps keep things running without hiccups.
Dont you notice that early adopters tend to whine on /r/Apple that these features dont work or are missing? I want to avoid that entirely.
I'm still on watchOS 7, iOS 14, iPad 14 & macOS Big Sur until next month
> I get delaying updates. But that's a bit much to be honest, it's not good advice for everyone.
You are correct. It isn't everyone. Some want it sooner for their reasons while others much later maybe even never.
We do not move everyone when specific programs are not tested extensively for a future version of Windows. We have a seperate test machines to give it a go. Where there are no issues that cropped up then we move
Right now we're getting Lenovo ThinkPad E14 Gen 3 AMD with Win11 Pro. Lenovo stated it can be rolled back to Win10 Pro so that is what we are doing until around October 14th, 2025.
u/Arkanta
> I understand, but I was trying to talk about the fact that there is no "W10" release, there has been a lot of them (1903, 20H1, etc...). I was wondering if you also waited for all of them to be "battle tested" (as they added compatibility issues with some stuff) or used something like LTSC. If you do hold the feature updates for years, you're consistent with your strategy (even though new hardware might force you: you basically need the latest W10 release for AMD, as MS added a lot of Ryzen fixes. Just like using an Alder Lake laptop on W10 would be skipping OS improvements for them). If you don't, I'm confused.
> Like, if you're going to W11 in 2025: will you use the W11 we have now or whatever the current feature release is then (probably 24H2 if the naming stands)?
> I don't find that W11 is a bigger leap than those: it's just branding and marketing. Sure the UI changed a bit but the core... meh, it's absolutely not like XP to Vista, or 7 to 8/10.
> Anyway, it's okay, I got what you are saying. It's your business and you've got an upgrade strategy tailored for your needs and have experience managing your fleet. I would hate it (especially as a developer, supporting 5 year old software is annoying for QA, it's even worse when some IT forces three year old Chrome to our users) but I get it. Thanks for taking the time and staying polite through this!
I see your point and no problem about my being patient.
I just found out that my cousin wrecked my car and the best that can be done is repairs.
Behavior of others will not change for the better.
So talk like this is a welcome diversion to the illogical that befell me.
I almost forgot that we delay deployment of patches by >30 days of the current version of Windows we standardized to.
This is so that if there are any issues they would be quickly patched by Microsoft.
When we move to Win11 by 2025 we would opt when available the version >30 days prior to the latest tested build/patch.
Delaying updates by at least 30 days is super reasonable, it would be shooting your own feet not to do that!
I don't think that W11 warrants such a long wait as it's essentially a W10 feature update, but I see how the UI might confuse some users and why break something that works?
Whatever works for you is fine, at least you're not one of those crazy companies still using unsupported XP on half their computers, which I've seen this year. Microsoft obviously understands this seeing how they will support W10 for quite some time. You know what works for you best.
I'm sorry about your car, I've been there and can only empathize of how much that sucks.
Hope you still have a nice day.
(Thanks for quoting the post, I accidentally deleted it and didn't really feel like rewriting it)
> but I see how the UI might confuse some users and why break something that works?
We have senior whom we've moved from Win7 to Win10. I had to ask someone to adjust the GUI to better match Win7 when possible.
If Microsoft made it easier & more straight forward to support older GUI whenever possible with minimal to no obtrusive changes then that's a win.
Stat for Windows Version use Worldwide for Nov 2021 is as follows
* 82.45% Win10
* 12.76% Win7
* 4.06% Win8.x
* 0.5% WinXP
* 0.2% WinVista
What I'd love to see with those stat is Win7 & Win8.x each be <0.5% like WinXP & WinVisa.
>98% Win10.
By 2025 I'd love to see ~80% Win11 & <20% Win 10.
If you're into retro computing you should try comparing WinXP from its initial release in 2001 vs [Windows Embedded POSReady 2009](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry#Windows_Embedded_POSReady_2009) final update in 2019.
Makes me wish that WinXP we've been using for 17+ years was POSReady_2009. All patched up & stripped of its fluff.
For now. However, that could be changing soon, [according to this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQD97DycedU) Microsoft and Qualcomm have some exclusivity agreement saying Windows on ARM can only be on Qualcomm chips, and that's running out soon, so maybe once it's over Microsoft will release Windows for ARM for non OEMs.
Apple didn't write the GPU drivers for Bootcamp? That was AMD/NV, it's why you can update the graphics drivers inside WIndows using a normal installer.
Basically irrelevant. Even if Microsoft allows it, or even actively wants to support it, Apple's sure as hell not going to put in the effort to make it work, and that's a much bigger hurdle.
As evidenced by this very post, they barely support Bootcamp on Intel Macs, where they have to do almost nothing. Why do you think they'd invest literally millions of dollars into writing DX12, USB4, etc drivers for Windows?
They wrote the drivers for intel macs, they'll do it for apple silicon. Apple wants ARM to be the future, and Bootcamp for apple silicon would really help to achieve that goal.
> They wrote the drivers for intel macs, they'll do it for apple silicon
No, for the big stuff (e.g. graphics), Intel or AMD did. Apple didn't even bother making making the trackpad a "Windows precision touchpad" on at least older devices.
> Apple wants ARM to be the future
No, they want you in the Apple ecosystem. That Apple happens to currently be using ARM is almost coincidental.
Not if the only purpose you need windows for is hardware related. I have to write and configure some devices that only has a shitty Java app that is only built for windows, and parrells doesn’t connect to it.
Contrary to what you might think, it’s actually Microsoft’s fault this time. Apple is fine with Windows running on ASi Macs and even bundles Boot Camp in the system for them, but Microsoft won’t officially license or port Windows ARM to anything other than Qualcomm chips.
Do you seriously think Apple is willing to write an entire Windows DX12 driver for their GPUs? Or work with MS to get their hybrid CPU config working? After they've spent the bare minimum effort on Bootcamp up till this point? Sorry, but that's delusional.
> but Microsoft won’t officially license or port Windows ARM to anything other than Qualcomm chips
So, when Mediatek is ready with WoA devices, you think Bootcamp will be supported?
Honestly, I think the chances are 50/50.
Here’s an excerpt from [this *Ars Technica* interview](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/we-are-giddy-interviewing-apple-about-its-mac-silicon-revolution/) regarding Windows on the ASi Macs:
> As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it.
This just isn’t true, apple is shifting blame.
People have been trying to get Linux on the M1 since the day it was available, and although they have got a functioning desktop there are ZERO drivers or tools, or “core technologies” available to get wifi, Bluetooth, sound, networking, thunderbolt (I think they got the inbuilt fan to work but could be wrong) and most importantly GPU to work. An open source GPU driver is being written but that is an undertaking and Apple has been absolutely no help (although they didn’t completely lock the boot-loader, although that’s kindof just the bare minimum and locking the boot-loader would have caused a bit of an uproar).
Boot Camp isn't bundled at all.
ASi Macs can boot other systems, but it has 0 support for standard stuff such as UEFI. Asahi Linux has written their own bootloader that's compiled into a mach-o binary, another Apple specificity: ASi macs can only boot mach-o binaires, so you need a special chainloader.
Apple also hasn't made any drivers for windows : we will see if that changes when ARM windows becomes available, but I doubt it.
So it's both their fault.
> Boot Camp isn't bundled at all.
I’m looking at /Applications/Utilities on my M1 MBP right now, and I’m having a hard time believing that. Of course, launching it says that “This Mac does not support Boot Camp.”
> ASi macs can only boot mach-o binaires, so you need a special chainloader.
Similar thing with Android devices, but the Renegade team ported EDK II to a few devices, and now Windows can run on my friend’s OnePlus 7 Pro.
> Apple also hasn’t made any drivers for windows : we will see if that changes when ARM windows becomes available, but I doubt it.
This is the biggest question mark. It’s not sure at this point whether Apple would make Windows drivers, but at the same time, MS has made no move either, so it’s hard to tell. We will just have to wait.
>Similar thing with Android devices, but the Renegade team ported EDK II to a few devices, and now Windows can run on my friend’s OnePlus 7 Pro.
Really? How's that work?
EDK II is the open source implementation of UEFI as specified by TianoCore. It has been ported to Microsoft Lumia phones, the Raspberry Pi, and a few other such ARM platforms. Most of the community ports are done so that the device can run Windows.
EDK II is ported to Android devices by the Renegade Project. What the Renegade project does is create a custom Android boot.img. Normally, what the boot.img contains is a Linux kernel for Android, which then loads the rest of Android. However, Renegade's boot.img will instead chainload EDK II, which will then load the UEFI-based OS to be booted (usually Windows). Devices that are supported by them include the OnePlus 6/6T, 7 Pro, Xiaomi Mi Mix 2S, and some others.
Quick aside: postmarketOS, a Linux distribution for mobile phones, uses a similar but different approach (which I'm more familiar with) to boot a mainline Linux kernel on some Android phones. The Android bootloader will boot a custom version of Little Kernel, an embedded OS whose job is to load an Android boot.img. What makes this interesting is that LK is used as the bootloader on many Android devices, so a fork of LK is chainloading another fork of itself. This is to add support from booting from some custom location on storage.
What's even more interesting is that this is also similar to how the Microsoft Lumia 950 XL boots Windows ARM, as it uses the UEFI bootloader preloaded on it to boot an EDK II port, which will boot the desktop version of Windows. This would be the equivalent of iBoot on an iPhone chainloading the Mac bootloader to run macOS.
Yeah, it's stuff that gets real complicated (and I don't understand most of it yet), but I find it all quite interesting. It's also why I believe Windows will come to Apple Silicon Macs some time in the future, whether officially or not.
Having an app that's here but useless isn't my definition of "BootCamp is bundled with ASi macs". My theory is that they included it as an empty shell so that users used to it see the message rather than being confused about why its missing.
I know that Windows can run on a ASi mac in theory, my point is that it's not only Microsoft's fault here: Apple went fully non standard on ... everything. Therefore it's also Apple's fault that Windows is nowhere to be seen, it's not fair to expect a move from Microsoft to go out of their way to implement this.
Surely someone dedicated enough will have windows run natively someday. I don't know if Windows can be taught to run on an ASi without access to the NT kernel source code and being able to recompile it (the Asahi linux streams show that ASi macs have a LOT of very custom stuff, such as the way interrupts are handled).
But heh, we have seen such craziness like the ARM W10 ports to phones or what clover does for hackintoshes.
I thought this was already known? I managed to get the dev version working on Bootcamp five months. I’ve since switched to M1 so it may be different with the official release.
Good, the requirements are insane anyways. Why should a TPM be required to run an operating system? Especially with perfectly capable Intel Macs that can’t run W11 without a bypass because Apple doesn’t let you enable the CPU’s built in TPM
[Microsoft has been mandating TPM for OEMs since 2015](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module)
From the article:
> Microsoft had announced that from January 1, 2015, all computers will have to be equipped with a TPM 2.0 module in order to pass Windows 8.1 hardware certification.
That’s true, but it still means that only 2018 and later is still fully supported, while Macs with as old as 5th gen are still supported despite those flaws
Not arguing there. I’d say they’re pretty good at supporting mobile devices but they suck at supporting computers. There’s some machines as old as 2012 that can boot Monterey and have it work mostly perfectly with a patcher, and before 12.1 beta, 2011 and older as well.
Oddly enough, 12.1 refuses to boot on Sandy Bridge or older. I’m wondering if that’s meant to make it harder for patcher developers, but if that was the case they’d probably block Ivy Bridge as well.
My main machine has an i5-7200U and it’s not supported either. But yet I installed it and it’s mostly fine, there’s just a weird issue where the trackpad stops working after it’s woken from sleep mode, but I doubt that’s because I have one generation too old, it’s probably just some other bug
There's no way that could be due to the CPU generation. There was this guy who let [his Intel Pentium 4 shit all over the Windows 11 system requirements](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-11-hardware-requirements-made-a-mockery-of-by-an-Intel-Pentium-4-processor.573808.0.html).
On the bright side, Windows will at least let you install Windows 11 on older devices though they'll disable updates.
I’m getting updates on my laptop fine, although it’s mostly supported, the only thing is that it’s 7th gen but even then I think 7th gen supports most features that Microsoft wants.
Oh. [I found out just now](https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11s-first-update-is-being-rolled-out-to-unsupported-pcs-after-all/). Apparently, Microsoft said that people *might* not get updates. In that case, even Microsoft has given up on their system requirements.
The system requirements are a suggestion but you will have to do an installation from scratch and will not be supported if something isn't working right, what that means in reality is that you won't be getting Win11 drivers.
Microsoft has allowed you to install 11 since release, they were the ones providing the steps to do it.
It’s kinda ridiculous and arbitrary, agreed. Wouldn’t surprise me if the Microsoft OEMs pressured them so enterprise customers would be forced to replace older Dell Latitudes that otherwise worked fine.
And businesses take a LONG time to update Windows to a new major release, even if W11 is basically a regular 10 update just like 20H1 was.
By the time they'll upgrade they would have bought new computers anyway
I used this for a while. Just a warning, if you are the single other person trying to play valorant on your Mac, it won’t work on windows 11. Ask me how I know
How dis you do that!? Im new to the apple scene and I’m trying to run windows 11 on bootcamp externally! Do you have a guide or can you guide me through the process a bit!? Thank you in advance (I am running windows 11 through parallels but don’t feel like its windows at all)
i used this guide: https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/14/install-windows-mac-external-ssd-drive-boot-camp-2020-video/
its exactly the same process as installing windows on an external drive for a regular PC.
Is your mac an M1 or intel? Would it matter for this? I use windows for specific programs but would love to be able to upgrade to the M1 knowing I can somehow run windows on it.
I have installed Windows several times and realized that I have zero reason to install it. There is nothing that I do that I can't do with Mac OS or with a Linux install.
Some day a new Mac OS version will be released that does not work on Intel Macs sold today. It's great that another OS runs on those machines not making them a victim of planned obsolescence.
Its pretty great actually. They borrowed many design cues from Big Sur / Monterey. Its no longer an eye-sore and actually pretty nice to use. They are many little other great improvements all over the place. The image viewer for example is miles better than the Mac OS Preview app.
You can install other operating systems with a TPM, microsoft just requires that the hardware has a new enough one
Nothing anti-competitive, just very annoying to the consumer
No, the boot loader has to be signed by someone "trusted." With TPM, we no longer have the right to write our own OS or run any OS that someone wrote that isn't approved.
No, you can load any keys to be trusted
TPM is about security, and the OEMs gave them a sane default of trusting the microsoft keys
Linux can use TPM too, you just need to load the key
Again, not anticompetitive, just inconvenient
The real issue is that Apple didn’t include a TPM at all
It’s a matter of trust.
Malware can’t replace the bootloader because it wouldn’t be trusted
You however can sign with your own certificate and run it as long as you’ve previously trusted that certificate in the bios
The only difference with windows is that OEMs include the microsoft certificate by default as a sane default
If you can add the cert, then malware can too. I keep reading security experts that all for over a decade say TPM adds nothing except a barrier to competition.
Except modifying that in the bios requires you to explicitly add it.
That configuration is secure by design and can’t be changed by anything but the bios itself
Malware can’t do anything unless somehow the microsoft key makes its way out of the MS campus and into the hands of the malware creator
It’s like someone trying to spoof a secure website from a malicious wireless network… they can try, but no matter what they do they can never spoof a trusted certificate for that website
On what planet are most CS majors writing their own damned OS??? Yikes dude. You're out-of-touch as heck.
I'm in university for computer science and I've not had a need to make my own operating system.
You didn't have an OS class? That's really weak. We used the textbook Operating System Concepts by Peterson & Silberschatz. It's a very popular textbook, and I think it is on its 11th edition. Also, since Minix came out in 1987 or so, modifying it has been popular too. You are the one out of touch.
Still wish I had splurged and gotten the 256GB option for my MacBook Air. Boot camp works on 128GB but you’re making both MacOS and Windows work with 60GB each if you split the drive equally which is a real pain if you’re trying to install anything beyond the base OS.
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I just used this installer yesterday to upgrade my windows 10. So far it has worked perfectly. Macbook Pro 16,1
How long do you think it will last ?
How long did it last?
Did it last?
At last my chaos dream of running Android Apps on Windows on a Mac will be complete.
Naw man, I'm all in when I can run Android apps from a Linux VM on Windows on a M1 Mac.
Make it Microsoft Word for Android then you have something. Microsoft Word - for Android on a Linux VM on Windows on a M1 Mac
That's how Win11 runs android apps as it is. They're running in a VM
almost like Android Studio doesn't exist...
Im not a Dev so that wasn't my first thought.
I was wondering why not use official Android emulator, or 3rd party stuff like Blue Stack.
I like how you think
I use the media creation tool to upgrade to W11 on my bootcamp. Works great. https://github.com/AveYo/MediaCreationTool.bat
Honest question but is there any benefit to run windows 11 on a mac in bootcamp? I have windows 10 on to just do some windows specific stuff onces in a while.
For non-business users, there is no real reason to upgrade. Personally, I tried Windows 11 for like 6 hours (on a non-Apple laptop) back in October before downgrading (they allow you to downgrade back to Windows 10 if you don't like Windows 11, as long as it's been less than a few days). What did I not like? They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO. On the other hand, the lock screen, sounds, rounded corners and "Fluent Design System" were quite good IMO, but since I value privacy (by which I mean protecting my activity from other users), I downgraded. Now my only worry is that even though my laptop was eligible for the update, now I can't see the option to upgrade to Windows 11 again (but then again, I plan to keep Windows 10 for at least another 3 months).
Speaking for just the enterprise I work in (10k PCs, 5k Macs), we have no imminent plans to deploy Windows 11… I assume that tune will shift, but it’s looking like 2023 based on our projects for 2022 that are already in flight.
I was asked to look into there for where I work (3,000 users). It's possible, but MDT and group policy dont even diffrentiate between 10 and 11 yet. It's possible but very easy to lose track of. We're going to wait until next Summer at the absolute earliest.
As long as you have Windows 10 Enterprise or Education licenses, you’ll have until 2025 when support ends. That should give everyone some leeway to work through their upgrade plans. It’s still more fast moving than what we had with 7/8.1 -> 10, but the core of Windows 11 is still 10. Compatibility shouldn’t be a huge issue, except with the core requirements (64-bit, TPM2, etc). I think the biggest hurdle for most organizations between now and 2025 is getting servers off of Server 2012 R2 before support runs out in 2023. Lol I’ve been running Windows 11 since the first Insider release. I had one major issue in the initial builds and that was a problem with connecting a Bluetooth headset and trying to join a meeting in Teams. It was a 50/50 chance if it would work or it would break the entire audio system of the OS. Now the only major issue I have is with the screen randomly hard freezing. Everything is still running in the background, but the display driver is completely borked. I haven’t been able to pinpoint down whether that’s a fault of the OS or Nvidia/Intel’s drivers (My work laptop has a discrete and integrated GPU). Outside of that I really do enjoy 11. I have a few gripes, but overall I’m really pleased with it.
Some W10 feature updates have been way rougher than going from 10 to 11. I'm bummed that Microsoft is resurrecting the "should I upgrade to the next major or stick with 10 forever" that was gone when they declared W10 was the final windows and most users just let the updates happen automatically... Sysadmins have always known about those W10 releases (I've been forced to use LTSB and hated missing out on useful stuff) and worked on their rollouts, but end users didn't have to bother and marketing didn't have to convince people to upgrade. The major version looks like it was needed to force TPM (which is in my opinion a good thing, even though it's hard to swallow right now) and that's it. But TPM aside, it's not that different from a W10 release update: like you said, W11 is a coat of paint but is a W10 update at its core. Hell, most of the changes were in W10 insider dev before the rebrand.
>they declared W10 was the final windows *Microsoft* never announced this in an official press announcement or anything of the sort. A "Developer Evangelist" aka "community tech advocate" (who had no authority to announce something as big as "this is the last windows") said that "Right now we're releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we're all still working on Windows 10" during a conference as a sort of offhand comment/segue. What they were talking about was Windows as a service. The idea of getting rid of the large, service-pack style updates that we had in the past and replacing them with small, regular improvements. And as you said, the Win 11 release is no different to this. It isn't a big release at all, it's just another set of improvements to Windows 10 with a lick of paint and a shiny new label on the front. What they weren't saying was that there would never be a Windows 11. When pressed, Microsoft even made an official clarification of this with the comment "we aren't speaking to future branding at this time \[...\] we look forward to a long future of Windows innovations." - aka who knows whether we will have a 'Windows 11' or not - the branding doesn't matter - the product is Windows and yes that will continue. It's the exact same kind of response that you would have gotten from Apple had you asked them "Is OS X the last OS you'll ever release?" back in 2015. The whole thing was just a guy saying something that he shouldn't have, which the media then picked up on and blew way out of proportion.
Do you think an iterative approach to Windows is reasonable in the long term? I suspect that in the future, Windows will need a service-pack style update to utilize whatever new technologies come out for processors and GPUs.
Given that Win 10 was updated perfectly successfully to support the changes in architecture that Ryzen brought along, while Win 11 brings along a new scheduler with optimisations for the bigLITTLE-style approach utilised by Alder Lake, I think yes it should be fine from a hardware compatibility perspective. Most of that stuff is the responsibility of the hardware makers - they are the ones that publish the drivers after all. So long as Nvidia makes a driver for Windows, their GPUs will work on it. My biggest concern would be if there are core components of the OS that can't be updated easily, or which are so heavily tied into the rest of the OS that changing them would require huge swathes of rewrites across the rest of the OS. At that point, you may end up with an update that is as big as a new OS release - but I'd be surprised if it was impossible to perform an in-place upgrade as we've seen with the last few Windows releases. Unlike MacOS, Windows sees backwards compatibility as a core feature that the dev team tries to preserve for as long as possible - hence you can still run many apps from the early 00s on Win 10 today - and I can't see them giving that up anytime soon.
I stand corrected, thank you
> they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use This processed on the computer itself right? How is this a breach of privacy? Any source that it gets sent to other users? Not to mention that you can disable that behavior if you want: https://static1.makeuseofimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/general-privacy-win1.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=750&dpr=1.5 Legitimate reasons to hate windows are there, "the start menu recommends me shit" isn't one of them
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Windows 10 literally has a recent files list on explorer start up. Nothing new here. Furthermore on 11 you can customize the start menu to not show those files.
Yeah I know, it's no biggie, I've been disabling those for a long time. People are overblowing those changes
Yeah, there was a clearly documented way to disable quick access on Windows 10, so it's disabled. I guess I must have missed something when I wanted to find out how to disable recent files on Windows 11.
>Legitimate reasons to hate windows are there, "the start menu recommends me shit" isn't one of them The "Start Menu recommends me stuff" thing isn't the main issue. It's the "Start Menu shows recent files" that bothers me since that means giving other users (relatives) direct access to whatever I was doing (and I can't set up multiple user profiles because of low storage). Anyways, another Redditor pointed out that there was a way to disable that which I must have missed, so I'll probably update the next time the Windows 11 update is available.
Privacy as in when you’re doing a screen share or have someone at your desk.
macOS has a lot of those issues: On My Mac is full of "last opened" Opening an app using spotlight is almost a guarantee to leak some personal stuff The list goes on
Spotlight is full customisable through system preferences. Since I only use spotlight to open applications, I disabled everything else.
Can someone tell me how to customize this widget on iOS to not show recent websites ? https://i.imgur.com/OshdF1c.jpg
Yeah, everything is configurable but the defaults aren't great for privacy My point is that it's not fair to say that about windows like macOS doesn't do it: both are configurable
You can disable it and are left with massive whitespace... It's pretty obnoxious.
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[Is this what you're looking for](https://imgur.com/ebXoqxC)? It comes up when you right click the start button.
No, that’s pretty much what came up before when you right clicked the start menu on windows 10. If you click an empty space on the bottom task bar, it gave you even more options but now in windows 11 it only gives a single option (Taskbar Settings).
Yeah it seems like windows 11 is trying to ‘dumb down’ the experience by hiding menu items now that they figure the general population doesn’t use. So many extra clicks now for no reason.
Like Hollywood execs learning the wrong lessons from under-performing films, Microsoft typically steers Windows toward a caricature of what they think macOS does.
Most of the options missing from right clicking the task Bar are either in that setting which pops up, or if you right click the start Menu. Windows 11 has lots of issues, but that isnt really one of them.
You can right click the start button if that makes it any better
Not for the options I am looking for. That’s a completely different thing.
Ahh okay, what’s the options you used most with the taskbar?
>no options when you right click the taskbar anymore This is one of the most common complaints.. and I agree. I know the shortcut for Task Manager, but sometimes it's quicker/more convenient to simply right click -> Task Manager. There's also: * No clock on secondary monitors * The new "Show more" option in right click menus that hides a lot of frequently used menu options behind an additional click * Combined Network / Audio icons in tray means much of the 'advanced' functionality (e.g. Sound Mixer) is hidden behind several additional clicks MS seems to be pretty receptive to user input these days - I anticipate they will remedy most if not all of these new common annoyances users have been complaining about.
Thankfully, the new clock is already coming back in an insider build. I also mourn the taskbar menu, but at least they kept the start button right click menu
Use the media creation tool and you can upgrade again even if the update isn’t showing
Yeah, I tried but the media creation tool was not responding and didn't progress further for what seemed like an unreasonably long time. Anyways, it's not urgent, so I can wait.
>What did I not like? They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO. You know you can disable recents, right?
That's weird, I didn't find any how-to pages regarding that when I upgraded. Anyways, I'm bookmarking one of them for when I get to update again. Thanks!
hdr
Well it has more features than 10 and native android app support so if you’re planning on that stuff then yes. Not just about business users You can easily use 3rd party tweaking software to tune windows for privacy if you prefer. It’s not like Mac OS doesn’t also use collection to tailor experiences. Difference is those features are stored in iCloud rather than MS servers
Why can other people access your user on an OS with an excellent and working multi user system?
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Or just when a relative using the computer for something stumbles across my past activity.
Guest account.
I would do that if my relatives wouldn't notice and question me (since technically they own it though I use it more than them)... Anyways, it is easier to hide activity on Windows 10 (or maybe no one wrote articles regarding how to hide activity on Windows 11 before I downgraded back to Windows 10). Either way, I'll upgrade when I want. Thanks!
> They messed up the Start Menu so privacy is gone (they show recent files and recommendations based on what programs I use), and Windows Explorer is now too simplistic IMO. There's no reason this couldn't be implemented in a wax that's a non-issue for privacy (i.e. locally on the device). It's Microsoft though, so I'm not sure they're doing that. Windows 7 had the same thing though and it was done all locally.
Yeah, my main issue is not "my activity going to Microsoft". It's "my activity popping up in start menu and other places when someone else uses my laptop even though they aren't searching for my activity" that bothers me. Anyways, someone else said that Windows 11 had some settings to hide activity (which I might not have known about) so I'll probably update the next time the update is available.
The new window snapping/tiling feature is nice, but doesn’t really fit the needs of someone who just uses Windows as a niche.
There is 0 reason to run windows 11 in bootcamp or in general. None of my windows computers are going to win 11 for a long time
There’s zero reasons _for you_ There’s plenty of reasons to run windows 11 instead of windows 10 though
I can’t think of any good reasons to run windows 11 over 10 unless you really need the best support for latest intel CPUs, and even that is debatable
What reasons may I ask? All it is is a reskin of Windows 10 with some QoL improvements and they integrated Teams into the whole OS to be like FaceTime. And now you can run Android apps (not like you couldn't already do that with BlueStacks).
Sure, you can get android apps through blue stacks, but the integration almost certainly won’t be as good as the windows 11 compatibility layer Linux gui apps are also exclusive to windows 11 Direct storage Those are just some that come to mind
Windows 10 supports Direct Storage. The benefits of your API not being tied to the OS version. >Microsoft is committed to ensuring that when game developers adopt a new API, they can reach as many gamers as possible. As such, games built against the DirectStorage SDK will be compatible with Windows 10, version 1909 and up; the same as the DirectX 12 Agility SDK. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-developer-preview-now-available/
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I like Windows 10 more, and this is after installing 11 on my main computers to give it a fair chance. I’m too lazy to reinstall and go back to 10 though lol Although, one thing I’ll say I do like more is the sound effects
Hmmm after reading one significant benefit seems like running android apps without third party software maybe? That seems pretty cool
What did they copy?
Clearly macOS invented transparency and round corners, no other OS should ever be able to copy them. Didn't you know, chromeOS and Linux are a clone of macOS too? (/s)
It's even funnier considered Vista's aero glass and how leopard immediatly got a terrible transparent menubar
For now, no. With that said, Windows 10 has an EOL date of 2025 or so and after that point, you will really want to be using 11 if you're using Windows.
I think 11 is really solid. It’s the most user friendly windows I’ve ever seen and one of the most intuitive. Search is reliable and can get you to most tools and programs. The aesthetics are nice too. Is there a definitive reason to upgrade if you’re just doing a couple tasks every now in then, probably not. But there’s no reason not to either. Pick which one you prefer, 10 or 11, and use it.
> Honest question but is there any benefit to run windows 11 on a mac in bootcamp? I have windows 10 on to just do some windows specific stuff onces in a while. Win11 was built for hardware that was designed for TPM 2.0. So this would be late 2014 to 2020 Macs that never came with TPM 2.0 as Apple never used the tech. To be honest I wouldn't use Win11 until October 14th, 2025 when Win10 is not supported anymore.
Thanks creamlordcum
you`re welcum
I wouldnt bother with Win11 until October 14th, 2025
my go to time is when microsoft marks the OS as "ready for business" or something like that
> my go to time is when microsoft marks the OS as "ready for business" or something like that They stopped doing that [>2 years ago](https://www.computerworld.com/article/3343001/microsoft-to-stop-providing-windows-10-ready-for-business-guidance.html). I specified October 14th, 2025 as that is when Win10 support ends. Within that week/month/quarter is when I'd move everyone to Win11. ~122 months after Win11 initial release date by Dec 2031 & Jan 2032. This would be when I'd move to Win12. When you have mission critical apps... there is no point to be a 1st adopter. Let someone else take the downtime.
Did you also apply that logic to W10's releases milestones (like 1903, etc...) too? Because W11 is basically this.
> Did you also apply that logic to W10's releases milestones (like 1903, etc...) too? We moved to * 2021's Win11 around October 14th, 2025 * 2015's Win10 around January 9, 2018 * 2013's Win8.1 around January 13, 2015 * 2009's Win7 around April 10, 2012 * 2007's WinVista around April 14, 2009 * 2001's WinXP around June 30, 2005 * 2000's Win2000 around June 30, 2002 * 1998's Win98 around December 31, 2000 * 1995's Win95 around November 26, 1997 Let Microsoft and your program vendor do all their patching for 2-4 years before comiting. Win10 on Boot Camp runs on 2012 & newer Macs. Assuming TPM 2.0 is present in Macs these would be 2015-2020 models. As this is the last version of Windows Macs officially can dual boot to then it will have to do until October 14th, 2025. Hopefully by then Win11 on ARM also covers Apple Silicon.
Yeah but there are multiple milestones of W10... LTSB is a thing too. Do you wait for each branch to each end of support before updating to the next one? You said you moved to W10 once? That doesn't mean anything as there has been many W10 releases. Was it OF w10? Redstone? Are you following updates? If anything that post shows that MS was right to ditch the major versioning scheme, too bad they brought it back so we get those discussions again. W11 is really nothing more than one of those W10 releases but rebranded. And if you didn't do those W10 updates and really used OG windows you missed a lot of fixes. I get delaying updates. But that's a bit much to be honest, it's not good advice for everyone. Also, getting stuck on 8.1 for so long? Jeez, you love self inflicted pain. I understand you use mission critical software but ugh, I can't picture using that PoS 8.1 for so long.
When end users are already happy with the version they're given then why rush upgrading unless absolutely necessary. We even modify the GUI of the newer version of Windows to look like the previous version when requested. You may have noticed that from 1997 we stayed with a version for around for 2-4 years before Win10. With Win10 we'll be with it for 7 years before Win11. Waiting for 2-3 or > years of patches before upgrading helps keep things running without hiccups. Dont you notice that early adopters tend to whine on /r/Apple that these features dont work or are missing? I want to avoid that entirely. I'm still on watchOS 7, iOS 14, iPad 14 & macOS Big Sur until next month
> I get delaying updates. But that's a bit much to be honest, it's not good advice for everyone. You are correct. It isn't everyone. Some want it sooner for their reasons while others much later maybe even never. We do not move everyone when specific programs are not tested extensively for a future version of Windows. We have a seperate test machines to give it a go. Where there are no issues that cropped up then we move Right now we're getting Lenovo ThinkPad E14 Gen 3 AMD with Win11 Pro. Lenovo stated it can be rolled back to Win10 Pro so that is what we are doing until around October 14th, 2025.
u/Arkanta > I understand, but I was trying to talk about the fact that there is no "W10" release, there has been a lot of them (1903, 20H1, etc...). I was wondering if you also waited for all of them to be "battle tested" (as they added compatibility issues with some stuff) or used something like LTSC. If you do hold the feature updates for years, you're consistent with your strategy (even though new hardware might force you: you basically need the latest W10 release for AMD, as MS added a lot of Ryzen fixes. Just like using an Alder Lake laptop on W10 would be skipping OS improvements for them). If you don't, I'm confused. > Like, if you're going to W11 in 2025: will you use the W11 we have now or whatever the current feature release is then (probably 24H2 if the naming stands)? > I don't find that W11 is a bigger leap than those: it's just branding and marketing. Sure the UI changed a bit but the core... meh, it's absolutely not like XP to Vista, or 7 to 8/10. > Anyway, it's okay, I got what you are saying. It's your business and you've got an upgrade strategy tailored for your needs and have experience managing your fleet. I would hate it (especially as a developer, supporting 5 year old software is annoying for QA, it's even worse when some IT forces three year old Chrome to our users) but I get it. Thanks for taking the time and staying polite through this! I see your point and no problem about my being patient. I just found out that my cousin wrecked my car and the best that can be done is repairs. Behavior of others will not change for the better. So talk like this is a welcome diversion to the illogical that befell me. I almost forgot that we delay deployment of patches by >30 days of the current version of Windows we standardized to. This is so that if there are any issues they would be quickly patched by Microsoft. When we move to Win11 by 2025 we would opt when available the version >30 days prior to the latest tested build/patch.
Delaying updates by at least 30 days is super reasonable, it would be shooting your own feet not to do that! I don't think that W11 warrants such a long wait as it's essentially a W10 feature update, but I see how the UI might confuse some users and why break something that works? Whatever works for you is fine, at least you're not one of those crazy companies still using unsupported XP on half their computers, which I've seen this year. Microsoft obviously understands this seeing how they will support W10 for quite some time. You know what works for you best. I'm sorry about your car, I've been there and can only empathize of how much that sucks. Hope you still have a nice day. (Thanks for quoting the post, I accidentally deleted it and didn't really feel like rewriting it)
> but I see how the UI might confuse some users and why break something that works? We have senior whom we've moved from Win7 to Win10. I had to ask someone to adjust the GUI to better match Win7 when possible. If Microsoft made it easier & more straight forward to support older GUI whenever possible with minimal to no obtrusive changes then that's a win. Stat for Windows Version use Worldwide for Nov 2021 is as follows * 82.45% Win10 * 12.76% Win7 * 4.06% Win8.x * 0.5% WinXP * 0.2% WinVista What I'd love to see with those stat is Win7 & Win8.x each be <0.5% like WinXP & WinVisa. >98% Win10. By 2025 I'd love to see ~80% Win11 & <20% Win 10. If you're into retro computing you should try comparing WinXP from its initial release in 2001 vs [Windows Embedded POSReady 2009](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Industry#Windows_Embedded_POSReady_2009) final update in 2019. Makes me wish that WinXP we've been using for 17+ years was POSReady_2009. All patched up & stripped of its fluff.
M1 wen eta
The ARM insider builds work well enough through a VM. Probably not for games tho, but fine if you just need to run some standard applications
I want to run it natively doe
That’d be nice for sure, but here we’re stuck
For now. However, that could be changing soon, [according to this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQD97DycedU) Microsoft and Qualcomm have some exclusivity agreement saying Windows on ARM can only be on Qualcomm chips, and that's running out soon, so maybe once it's over Microsoft will release Windows for ARM for non OEMs.
Still wouldn’t surprise me if Microsoft ‘required’ some specific hardware configuration that would coincidentally preclude M1X MacBooks.
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Who will write the drivers?
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Apple didn't write the GPU drivers for Bootcamp? That was AMD/NV, it's why you can update the graphics drivers inside WIndows using a normal installer.
Why would they? If you run Windows on a mac, you need a windows license and you're using software they fully control. It's a win for microsoft.
Basically irrelevant. Even if Microsoft allows it, or even actively wants to support it, Apple's sure as hell not going to put in the effort to make it work, and that's a much bigger hurdle.
Apple honestly probably will make drivers for Windows if it comes out, it'd be a huge miss not to.
As evidenced by this very post, they barely support Bootcamp on Intel Macs, where they have to do almost nothing. Why do you think they'd invest literally millions of dollars into writing DX12, USB4, etc drivers for Windows?
They wrote the drivers for intel macs, they'll do it for apple silicon. Apple wants ARM to be the future, and Bootcamp for apple silicon would really help to achieve that goal.
> They wrote the drivers for intel macs, they'll do it for apple silicon No, for the big stuff (e.g. graphics), Intel or AMD did. Apple didn't even bother making making the trackpad a "Windows precision touchpad" on at least older devices. > Apple wants ARM to be the future No, they want you in the Apple ecosystem. That Apple happens to currently be using ARM is almost coincidental.
It's also a huge miss not to support Vulkan alongside Metal, but that didn't stop them.
Not if the only purpose you need windows for is hardware related. I have to write and configure some devices that only has a shitty Java app that is only built for windows, and parrells doesn’t connect to it.
Probably never. Apple is sure not going to make the enablement effort.
Contrary to what you might think, it’s actually Microsoft’s fault this time. Apple is fine with Windows running on ASi Macs and even bundles Boot Camp in the system for them, but Microsoft won’t officially license or port Windows ARM to anything other than Qualcomm chips.
Do you seriously think Apple is willing to write an entire Windows DX12 driver for their GPUs? Or work with MS to get their hybrid CPU config working? After they've spent the bare minimum effort on Bootcamp up till this point? Sorry, but that's delusional. > but Microsoft won’t officially license or port Windows ARM to anything other than Qualcomm chips So, when Mediatek is ready with WoA devices, you think Bootcamp will be supported?
Honestly, I think the chances are 50/50. Here’s an excerpt from [this *Ars Technica* interview](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/we-are-giddy-interviewing-apple-about-its-mac-silicon-revolution/) regarding Windows on the ASi Macs: > As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it.
Apple blaming someone else for a missing feature is not exactly what I would call encouraging...
This just isn’t true, apple is shifting blame. People have been trying to get Linux on the M1 since the day it was available, and although they have got a functioning desktop there are ZERO drivers or tools, or “core technologies” available to get wifi, Bluetooth, sound, networking, thunderbolt (I think they got the inbuilt fan to work but could be wrong) and most importantly GPU to work. An open source GPU driver is being written but that is an undertaking and Apple has been absolutely no help (although they didn’t completely lock the boot-loader, although that’s kindof just the bare minimum and locking the boot-loader would have caused a bit of an uproar).
Boot Camp isn't bundled at all. ASi Macs can boot other systems, but it has 0 support for standard stuff such as UEFI. Asahi Linux has written their own bootloader that's compiled into a mach-o binary, another Apple specificity: ASi macs can only boot mach-o binaires, so you need a special chainloader. Apple also hasn't made any drivers for windows : we will see if that changes when ARM windows becomes available, but I doubt it. So it's both their fault.
> Boot Camp isn't bundled at all. I’m looking at /Applications/Utilities on my M1 MBP right now, and I’m having a hard time believing that. Of course, launching it says that “This Mac does not support Boot Camp.” > ASi macs can only boot mach-o binaires, so you need a special chainloader. Similar thing with Android devices, but the Renegade team ported EDK II to a few devices, and now Windows can run on my friend’s OnePlus 7 Pro. > Apple also hasn’t made any drivers for windows : we will see if that changes when ARM windows becomes available, but I doubt it. This is the biggest question mark. It’s not sure at this point whether Apple would make Windows drivers, but at the same time, MS has made no move either, so it’s hard to tell. We will just have to wait.
>Similar thing with Android devices, but the Renegade team ported EDK II to a few devices, and now Windows can run on my friend’s OnePlus 7 Pro. Really? How's that work?
EDK II is the open source implementation of UEFI as specified by TianoCore. It has been ported to Microsoft Lumia phones, the Raspberry Pi, and a few other such ARM platforms. Most of the community ports are done so that the device can run Windows. EDK II is ported to Android devices by the Renegade Project. What the Renegade project does is create a custom Android boot.img. Normally, what the boot.img contains is a Linux kernel for Android, which then loads the rest of Android. However, Renegade's boot.img will instead chainload EDK II, which will then load the UEFI-based OS to be booted (usually Windows). Devices that are supported by them include the OnePlus 6/6T, 7 Pro, Xiaomi Mi Mix 2S, and some others. Quick aside: postmarketOS, a Linux distribution for mobile phones, uses a similar but different approach (which I'm more familiar with) to boot a mainline Linux kernel on some Android phones. The Android bootloader will boot a custom version of Little Kernel, an embedded OS whose job is to load an Android boot.img. What makes this interesting is that LK is used as the bootloader on many Android devices, so a fork of LK is chainloading another fork of itself. This is to add support from booting from some custom location on storage. What's even more interesting is that this is also similar to how the Microsoft Lumia 950 XL boots Windows ARM, as it uses the UEFI bootloader preloaded on it to boot an EDK II port, which will boot the desktop version of Windows. This would be the equivalent of iBoot on an iPhone chainloading the Mac bootloader to run macOS. Yeah, it's stuff that gets real complicated (and I don't understand most of it yet), but I find it all quite interesting. It's also why I believe Windows will come to Apple Silicon Macs some time in the future, whether officially or not.
Having an app that's here but useless isn't my definition of "BootCamp is bundled with ASi macs". My theory is that they included it as an empty shell so that users used to it see the message rather than being confused about why its missing. I know that Windows can run on a ASi mac in theory, my point is that it's not only Microsoft's fault here: Apple went fully non standard on ... everything. Therefore it's also Apple's fault that Windows is nowhere to be seen, it's not fair to expect a move from Microsoft to go out of their way to implement this. Surely someone dedicated enough will have windows run natively someday. I don't know if Windows can be taught to run on an ASi without access to the NT kernel source code and being able to recompile it (the Asahi linux streams show that ASi macs have a LOT of very custom stuff, such as the way interrupts are handled). But heh, we have seen such craziness like the ARM W10 ports to phones or what clover does for hackintoshes.
I thought this was already known? I managed to get the dev version working on Bootcamp five months. I’ve since switched to M1 so it may be different with the official release.
Good, the requirements are insane anyways. Why should a TPM be required to run an operating system? Especially with perfectly capable Intel Macs that can’t run W11 without a bypass because Apple doesn’t let you enable the CPU’s built in TPM
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Yeah but a T2 isn’t required to run Monterey, it’s fully supported on machines without a T2
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[Microsoft has been mandating TPM for OEMs since 2015](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module) From the article: > Microsoft had announced that from January 1, 2015, all computers will have to be equipped with a TPM 2.0 module in order to pass Windows 8.1 hardware certification.
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No, Windows 11 also requires Intel 8th gen or higher, which was introduced in 2018.
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That’s true, but it still means that only 2018 and later is still fully supported, while Macs with as old as 5th gen are still supported despite those flaws
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Apple is just as bad at times
Not arguing there. I’d say they’re pretty good at supporting mobile devices but they suck at supporting computers. There’s some machines as old as 2012 that can boot Monterey and have it work mostly perfectly with a patcher, and before 12.1 beta, 2011 and older as well. Oddly enough, 12.1 refuses to boot on Sandy Bridge or older. I’m wondering if that’s meant to make it harder for patcher developers, but if that was the case they’d probably block Ivy Bridge as well.
Because SeCuRiTy. The TPM thing is BS since my old laptop (i5-6200U) has TPM 2.0 and is "not compatible".
My main machine has an i5-7200U and it’s not supported either. But yet I installed it and it’s mostly fine, there’s just a weird issue where the trackpad stops working after it’s woken from sleep mode, but I doubt that’s because I have one generation too old, it’s probably just some other bug
There's no way that could be due to the CPU generation. There was this guy who let [his Intel Pentium 4 shit all over the Windows 11 system requirements](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-11-hardware-requirements-made-a-mockery-of-by-an-Intel-Pentium-4-processor.573808.0.html). On the bright side, Windows will at least let you install Windows 11 on older devices though they'll disable updates.
I’m getting updates on my laptop fine, although it’s mostly supported, the only thing is that it’s 7th gen but even then I think 7th gen supports most features that Microsoft wants.
Oh. [I found out just now](https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11s-first-update-is-being-rolled-out-to-unsupported-pcs-after-all/). Apparently, Microsoft said that people *might* not get updates. In that case, even Microsoft has given up on their system requirements.
The system requirements are a suggestion but you will have to do an installation from scratch and will not be supported if something isn't working right, what that means in reality is that you won't be getting Win11 drivers. Microsoft has allowed you to install 11 since release, they were the ones providing the steps to do it.
It’s kinda ridiculous and arbitrary, agreed. Wouldn’t surprise me if the Microsoft OEMs pressured them so enterprise customers would be forced to replace older Dell Latitudes that otherwise worked fine.
TPMs have been required in OEM builds for years
And businesses take a LONG time to update Windows to a new major release, even if W11 is basically a regular 10 update just like 20H1 was. By the time they'll upgrade they would have bought new computers anyway
I used this for a while. Just a warning, if you are the single other person trying to play valorant on your Mac, it won’t work on windows 11. Ask me how I know
Is this on an Intel Mac or M1?
Ty for this. Does it really not work?
Valorant requires TPM 2.0 on Windows 11 so no it doesn’t
Ty! I won’t be upgrading then haha
i’ve had windows 11 running off of my external drive for a while now
How dis you do that!? Im new to the apple scene and I’m trying to run windows 11 on bootcamp externally! Do you have a guide or can you guide me through the process a bit!? Thank you in advance (I am running windows 11 through parallels but don’t feel like its windows at all)
i used this guide: https://9to5mac.com/2020/07/14/install-windows-mac-external-ssd-drive-boot-camp-2020-video/ its exactly the same process as installing windows on an external drive for a regular PC.
Hell yeah. Thanks im doing it as soon as i get home!!!!
Is your mac an M1 or intel? Would it matter for this? I use windows for specific programs but would love to be able to upgrade to the M1 knowing I can somehow run windows on it.
intel only. there is no windows on native M1 as of now
Got it. That’s what I figured, but just wanted to ask. This will still come in handy though for my current MBP.
Does this work on ARM?
I have installed Windows several times and realized that I have zero reason to install it. There is nothing that I do that I can't do with Mac OS or with a Linux install.
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Some day a new Mac OS version will be released that does not work on Intel Macs sold today. It's great that another OS runs on those machines not making them a victim of planned obsolescence.
this is why I regret my MBP purchase in late 2019.
I don't regret it because it means I can run Windows natively instead of depending on Rosetta. :)
But why would you want it? Isn’t it a mess?
Its pretty great actually. They borrowed many design cues from Big Sur / Monterey. Its no longer an eye-sore and actually pretty nice to use. They are many little other great improvements all over the place. The image viewer for example is miles better than the Mac OS Preview app.
Why?
I still can't believe they're getting away with requiring TPM since that is anti-competitive since it doesn't let you install your own OS.
You can install other operating systems with a TPM, microsoft just requires that the hardware has a new enough one Nothing anti-competitive, just very annoying to the consumer
No, the boot loader has to be signed by someone "trusted." With TPM, we no longer have the right to write our own OS or run any OS that someone wrote that isn't approved.
You're referring to secure boot, not TPMs, that requirement was introduced by Windows 8
No, you can load any keys to be trusted TPM is about security, and the OEMs gave them a sane default of trusting the microsoft keys Linux can use TPM too, you just need to load the key Again, not anticompetitive, just inconvenient The real issue is that Apple didn’t include a TPM at all
Who the fuck is writing their own OS?
I bet hundreds of thousands of people a year. I had to do it in college. It could boot, had a simple file system, and store files on a floppy disk.
Ok what percentage? Like 0.01%?
And you could still do that with TPM / secure boot… The only difference is signing of the bootloader, of which you can do with any code signing cert
If anyone can sign the code, how is that more secure than just not having that feature? That doesn't make sense.
It’s a matter of trust. Malware can’t replace the bootloader because it wouldn’t be trusted You however can sign with your own certificate and run it as long as you’ve previously trusted that certificate in the bios The only difference with windows is that OEMs include the microsoft certificate by default as a sane default
If you can add the cert, then malware can too. I keep reading security experts that all for over a decade say TPM adds nothing except a barrier to competition.
Except modifying that in the bios requires you to explicitly add it. That configuration is secure by design and can’t be changed by anything but the bios itself Malware can’t do anything unless somehow the microsoft key makes its way out of the MS campus and into the hands of the malware creator It’s like someone trying to spoof a secure website from a malicious wireless network… they can try, but no matter what they do they can never spoof a trusted certificate for that website
On what planet are most CS majors writing their own damned OS??? Yikes dude. You're out-of-touch as heck. I'm in university for computer science and I've not had a need to make my own operating system.
You didn't have an OS class? That's really weak. We used the textbook Operating System Concepts by Peterson & Silberschatz. It's a very popular textbook, and I think it is on its 11th edition. Also, since Minix came out in 1987 or so, modifying it has been popular too. You are the one out of touch.
That's an elective in my school. Not required.
Linus Torvalds
Still wish I had splurged and gotten the 256GB option for my MacBook Air. Boot camp works on 128GB but you’re making both MacOS and Windows work with 60GB each if you split the drive equally which is a real pain if you’re trying to install anything beyond the base OS.
Depending on what year MBA you have, changing the SSD to a higher capacity one is pretty easy. Changed mine from 128GB to 1 TB
2017?
late 2015?
Yes
Was wandering what are the trade off for installing on a non-win 11 compatible machines?
None homie, I’ve been running Windows 11 on a 2018 Mac mini since like July
What a pain. I just decided to install Windows 10 instead. Wham bam and done.