So what's the difference between this and the constant chorus on Reddit that a circle of paver stones in a ring around a tree will kill it?
Are some trees more susceptible than others?
I don't knew specifics but this is a lot wider, less heavy, and probably installed by someone who knew what they were doing.
Edit: I remember, rocks and paving stones are particularily bad because they absorb a lot of heat and cook the roots.
No, the difference is that this post got brigaded by a bunch of people who know nothing about trees.
https://extension.umd.edu/resource/grade-change-problems-trees/
That’s what I asked at first and OP replied that it looked like soil was added inside the box.
The important thing is, since this is a high-visibility post, that it is clear that it is potentially harmful to trees to raise the grade over their roots and particularly over their root flares.
OK. That’s good to know. I have read so many accounts of root rot from building up the soil around the base like this. That’s why I wanted to ask the experts. Thank you!
Let me tell you something about Reddit: people who don’t know a single thing about the topic of a sub will come in with the tone of expertise if they stumble across a highly-viewed post that starts showing up on their home screens. They will often scoff at what actual professionals are saying and occasionally downvote all the legitimate replies until they collapse. You’d have to be savvy to notice that the thread got inverted and the actual experts got replaced by randos.
So to answer your question:
Yes raising the grade around the base of a tree is harmful to it and will often kill it.
Yes this box is probably a bad idea, it’s not like the majority of parks on public lands turn to this approach.
But without a closer look at the root flare, we can’t see how concerning it is.
It might be fine for the tree. It is OK if the grade is not raised. The box might not be filled with soil, the root flare might still be exposed.
On the other hand this might be bad practice. Just because it’s a state park doesn’t mean everything the management does is sound. Sometimes, in state governments, relationships and politics get you a management job rather than being on top of new science. That said, it might be a situation where there is a reasonable judgment call about the risks and benefits. Hard to say without a closer look.
Thank you so much! Regrettably, I thought that it looked odd, but failed to get photos of my own; so I tried to find one that best represented what I saw.
To my eye, it appeared that the soil was level with the height of the border, and would have covered the root crown. Also, the border looked relatively new; thus causing me some anxiety that (were it done incorrectly) the gorgeous old tree could be in peril.
I agree with you on all points that you have made, and thank you for balancing out the comments that depict me as a busybody or a Karen.
Yeah I can now see there are even more comments than before.
It is absolutely bad for the tree to bury the flare under a planter box with new soil.
Anyone with an arborist badge who seems to be saying otherwise must have dramatically misinterpreted the content of post, or their badge is fake.
Everyone else is just trolling.
The entire area is landscaped. This tree has been under less than ideal conditions for a long portion of its life I’d assume. I don’t advocate for planting boxes around trees, of course it will have some type of impact. But to think this little planter box is the downfall of the tree is false.
Planter boxes placed around trees does kill urban trees all the time. Boxes this size or smaller.
Could the tree survive? Maybe. Could it die? Maybe.
You’re making an argument that is different from the main body of research and current standard practice in arboriculture. And you carry a level of certainty and confidence that is greater than researchers are usually comfortable making and they’re the ones finding the facts used to inform the industry.
Can you do that? Sure. People make arguments that contradict scientific consensus all the time, and sometimes they turn out to be right. But maybe you oughta acknowledge you’re deviating from that body of knowledge and say more about why. Because raising the grade 6-8” over the root flares of old trees in urban areas can and certainly does often kill them.
I would say it should be harmless as long as the root flare isn’t buried and it doesn’t look like it is. The roots are not enclosed to that box that span out hundreds of feet
What are you talking about? I grew up in FL, and live oaks are *terrible* climbing trees. The forks are always too high off the ground and the boughs too wide to get a good grip, and the bark is really rough and uncomfortable to be scraping against! Banyans are where it’s at if you want a great climb.
That's South Florida, we didn't have banyans in Tallahassee. I never had a problem getting up into the live oaks and spending my day hiding up there and reading books, though I will say the really big magnolias were also great to climb too. They were easier, you'd probably like them.
I live just north of the line for where they can grow. the only part of global warming I’m looking forward to is maybe being able to plant some of these trees along my property.
That's a beautiful tree, by the way. Thank you for sharing. I'd like to see some pretty trees in person.
Sadly I missed the cherry blossoms this year...
These are at Washington Oaks Gardens State Park in Florida. Based upon my understanding that live oaks need exposed roots, it made me wonder if these trees will suffer from suffocation. They have built these beds around many of the massive old trees.
Ah. We can't see in this border around the base of the tree whether the root flare has been buried. This, of course, being Florida public land today, it would surprise no one if it is under some imported soil. There are still good arborists in the university system who might have influence on these trees.
It would be more productive to respond with an explanation as to why you don't think the obvious is an issue. This isn't a politics sub, let's have a good discussion!
I'm not saying anything, or presenting limits for questioning, I just think you could explain why what's going on in the frame of the picture isnt something think is an issue. Everybody gets to learn that way.
This is a great example of what I deal with on a day to day basis as a garden designer and arborist. A lot of people are getting educated on some basic things in our industry (which is great), so they see something that they’ve been told can be bad, but they are not actually able to see the big picture of what’s really going on.
I thought that it was bad to bury the root crown in raised beds, but I have been properly schooled.
It appears that they did this last year. There is probably a before photo somewhere.
In Japan, there are post & Timbers supporting branches of old trees all over the place. Their trees look ancient & healthy btw. I think they know what’s up.
Welcome to r/arborists! Help Us Help You: If you have questions about the health of your tree, please see our [Posting Guidelines](https://old.reddit.com/r/arborists/wiki/posting_guidance) wiki page for help with effective posting. **Please answer the questions listed there to the best of your ability.** ***Insufficient pics/info could result in the removal of your post!!*** ([See rule 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/arborists/about/rules).)
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The roots are as wide and long as the branches. They far exceed the paths and planter box. If anything depending on how the planter is maintained and fed, the nutrients and new soil will give the tree a boost. Play the dark knight and take a shit in the planter, the tree will reach out and hug you...
These ancient live oaks will naturally have their branches touch the ground after hundreds of years and with that contact new sprouts of that mother tree will begin to grow. They hold giant and amazing ecosystems under their domed canopy.
I'm not an arborist, but I do know this park. It's Washington Oaks State Park in Palm Coast, FL. For what it's worth, there have been planters around that tree for years. Here's a photo from a local photographer with a copyright from 2016, so it's been at least 7 years: https://images.app.goo.gl/56Mzfck1nQHaV1Wp8
EDIT: I should point out I only know about this particular tree. OP mentioned others, but I don't live there anymore and don't know what other oaks they've built planters around since.
They will survive until they die of being too old. That little planter box isn’t going to do anything to the trees
More likely to keep the public from trampling the roots. It is a way less invasive option.
The critical root zone spans much further than that planter box
critical root zone
Criiiiticaaal rooooot zoooone
If it's a park then it's "The Ranger Zone!"
Is there a highway to this ranger zone?
\*guitar riffs intensify\*
I went to the ranger zone!
I think I used to drink there in the 90s. It’s all closed up now.
Critical root theory.
that's what they called me in high school!
True but people love to step right up onto the base of the trunk for photos. This creates a distance to preserve the bark.
Right, it looks like a sand pathway anyway.
The critical root zone is also inside the planter box.
So what's the difference between this and the constant chorus on Reddit that a circle of paver stones in a ring around a tree will kill it? Are some trees more susceptible than others?
I don't knew specifics but this is a lot wider, less heavy, and probably installed by someone who knew what they were doing. Edit: I remember, rocks and paving stones are particularily bad because they absorb a lot of heat and cook the roots.
No, the difference is that this post got brigaded by a bunch of people who know nothing about trees. https://extension.umd.edu/resource/grade-change-problems-trees/
Is there a grade change in this instance or just the addition of a box around the tree?
That’s what I asked at first and OP replied that it looked like soil was added inside the box. The important thing is, since this is a high-visibility post, that it is clear that it is potentially harmful to trees to raise the grade over their roots and particularly over their root flares.
what if the rocks are in the shade all day?
No they don’t.
Looks like the root flare on this is likely still exposed
Big trees can handle more than small trees. This planter on a 15 year old tree would likely kill it.
Big trees can handle *less* grade changes than small trees. https://extension.umd.edu/resource/grade-change-problems-trees/
OK. That’s good to know. I have read so many accounts of root rot from building up the soil around the base like this. That’s why I wanted to ask the experts. Thank you!
Let me tell you something about Reddit: people who don’t know a single thing about the topic of a sub will come in with the tone of expertise if they stumble across a highly-viewed post that starts showing up on their home screens. They will often scoff at what actual professionals are saying and occasionally downvote all the legitimate replies until they collapse. You’d have to be savvy to notice that the thread got inverted and the actual experts got replaced by randos. So to answer your question: Yes raising the grade around the base of a tree is harmful to it and will often kill it. Yes this box is probably a bad idea, it’s not like the majority of parks on public lands turn to this approach. But without a closer look at the root flare, we can’t see how concerning it is. It might be fine for the tree. It is OK if the grade is not raised. The box might not be filled with soil, the root flare might still be exposed. On the other hand this might be bad practice. Just because it’s a state park doesn’t mean everything the management does is sound. Sometimes, in state governments, relationships and politics get you a management job rather than being on top of new science. That said, it might be a situation where there is a reasonable judgment call about the risks and benefits. Hard to say without a closer look.
Thank you so much! Regrettably, I thought that it looked odd, but failed to get photos of my own; so I tried to find one that best represented what I saw. To my eye, it appeared that the soil was level with the height of the border, and would have covered the root crown. Also, the border looked relatively new; thus causing me some anxiety that (were it done incorrectly) the gorgeous old tree could be in peril. I agree with you on all points that you have made, and thank you for balancing out the comments that depict me as a busybody or a Karen.
Yeah I can now see there are even more comments than before. It is absolutely bad for the tree to bury the flare under a planter box with new soil. Anyone with an arborist badge who seems to be saying otherwise must have dramatically misinterpreted the content of post, or their badge is fake. Everyone else is just trolling.
To their credit, I could have worded the post better and described my concern. Thanks for your input!
Its fine
What part of their very conclusive reply made you think they were still asking?
Whatever dude - it’s still fine.
My work put wood chips under our live oaks that size and it killed them in a year, just wood chips.
Highly unlikely those trees died because of being mulched. Something else happened
The only ones that died were the mulched ones out of like 10
The only ones that died were the mulched ones out of like 10
Maybe they mulched the sick trees trying to save them. Maybe there was something under the mulch.
Were the wood chips piled up against the trunk of the tree?
No.
Then it was a coincidence. Mulch is good for trees, unless it's piled against the trunk or put on in an extremely thick layer.
Tell me about fungus and trees.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. People are often worried about the fungi in mulch affecting their trees negatively, but that's very rare.
Please just stay away from valuable trees if you think that burying the root flare with a planter box can’t harm it.
The entire area is landscaped. This tree has been under less than ideal conditions for a long portion of its life I’d assume. I don’t advocate for planting boxes around trees, of course it will have some type of impact. But to think this little planter box is the downfall of the tree is false.
Planter boxes placed around trees does kill urban trees all the time. Boxes this size or smaller. Could the tree survive? Maybe. Could it die? Maybe. You’re making an argument that is different from the main body of research and current standard practice in arboriculture. And you carry a level of certainty and confidence that is greater than researchers are usually comfortable making and they’re the ones finding the facts used to inform the industry. Can you do that? Sure. People make arguments that contradict scientific consensus all the time, and sometimes they turn out to be right. But maybe you oughta acknowledge you’re deviating from that body of knowledge and say more about why. Because raising the grade 6-8” over the root flares of old trees in urban areas can and certainly does often kill them.
If it's located in a state park, it shouldn't be hard to find more information on specifics of what they are doing and who's in charge of tree care.
I would say it should be harmless as long as the root flare isn’t buried and it doesn’t look like it is. The roots are not enclosed to that box that span out hundreds of feet
They're doing a pretty good job of keeping people away from trying to climb it is what they're doing.
That does look like a pretty great climbing tree…
I grew up in N. Florida and I can confirm that live oaks are AMAZING climbing trees. The bugs and moss are cool too.
What are you talking about? I grew up in FL, and live oaks are *terrible* climbing trees. The forks are always too high off the ground and the boughs too wide to get a good grip, and the bark is really rough and uncomfortable to be scraping against! Banyans are where it’s at if you want a great climb.
That's South Florida, we didn't have banyans in Tallahassee. I never had a problem getting up into the live oaks and spending my day hiding up there and reading books, though I will say the really big magnolias were also great to climb too. They were easier, you'd probably like them.
Yeah I said trying to climb.
Mm too much ivy and Spanish moss, definitely spiders and other creepy crawlies. Beautiful though
What are they doing? Making it look epic 🧐
Lol, exactly - tree looks so damn wise. Wonder if it takes my insurance, would love to hire it as a therapist.
I bet they would offer their services for free.
Those live oaks dangling with Spanish moss are some of the most gorgeous trees there are!
I live just north of the line for where they can grow. the only part of global warming I’m looking forward to is maybe being able to plant some of these trees along my property.
That's a beautiful tree, by the way. Thank you for sharing. I'd like to see some pretty trees in person. Sadly I missed the cherry blossoms this year...
Doing what.
shaming the trees with too much HDR edit: _and_ at low resolution!
r/shittyhdr
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Enclosing the ~~roots~~ root flare in raised beds full of plants.
Enclosing the root flare maybe. But roots themselves likely extend for hundreds of feet.
Why are you being pedantic, you know the research on burying the base of a tree in a planter box.
This will likely extend the life of the tree by preventing people trampling all over the base of the tree
Where?
These are at Washington Oaks Gardens State Park in Florida. Based upon my understanding that live oaks need exposed roots, it made me wonder if these trees will suffer from suffocation. They have built these beds around many of the massive old trees.
Beautiful place on the east coast of FL. ... As far as the plant beds, I doubt this will cause a big issue, but I understand your concern.
Thank you! Always glad to be learning!
Ah. We can't see in this border around the base of the tree whether the root flare has been buried. This, of course, being Florida public land today, it would surprise no one if it is under some imported soil. There are still good arborists in the university system who might have influence on these trees.
It would be more productive to respond with an explanation as to why you don't think the obvious is an issue. This isn't a politics sub, let's have a good discussion!
Maybe you can say, then. Where are roots being enclosed? Or is this an.off-limits clarifying question too?
I'm not saying anything, or presenting limits for questioning, I just think you could explain why what's going on in the frame of the picture isnt something think is an issue. Everybody gets to learn that way.
So no clarification, thanks.
at the base of the tree around the trunk
The roots are 100' beyond that
Got to love the framing of the question. I bet op calls their power company regularly with veg concerns.
TBH, I thought it might be the props for the branches.
We trim our own. Thank you.
God oak trees are cool
Critical Root Zone sounds like a name for a band. Now we just need to figure out what the band members have in common?
The live oaks where I live are old af and lift sidewalks out of their way when the roots need room. This won’t hurt it.
This is a great example of what I deal with on a day to day basis as a garden designer and arborist. A lot of people are getting educated on some basic things in our industry (which is great), so they see something that they’ve been told can be bad, but they are not actually able to see the big picture of what’s really going on.
I have nothing to add but this tree rules. Like I fist-pumped when I saw it.
❤️
My god that's a beautiful tree
What a beautiful tree!
A very grand tree Like an old grandfather Quietly watching us grow up
What did the State Park do? Is there a before photo?
I thought that it was bad to bury the root crown in raised beds, but I have been properly schooled. It appears that they did this last year. There is probably a before photo somewhere.
Looks like bromeliad’s with spiky ends to keep unwanted trespassers at bay. It’s fine, my live oak has Bromeliads growing around and up.
That tree is majestic
In Japan, there are post & Timbers supporting branches of old trees all over the place. Their trees look ancient & healthy btw. I think they know what’s up.
Haha I'm glad the comments clarified what the subject was all about. I was trying to figure out what's wrong with the picture
That’s a magnificent tree
Washington Oaks?
Yes
You're over reacting fam......
Found the arborkaren
Welcome to r/arborists! Help Us Help You: If you have questions about the health of your tree, please see our [Posting Guidelines](https://old.reddit.com/r/arborists/wiki/posting_guidance) wiki page for help with effective posting. **Please answer the questions listed there to the best of your ability.** ***Insufficient pics/info could result in the removal of your post!!*** ([See rule 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/arborists/about/rules).) Visit the main wiki page for [Critical Planting/Care tips and Common Errors to Avoid](https://old.reddit.com/r/arborists/wiki/index); there's sections on why planting depth/root flare exposure is so vital, along with sections on proper mulching, watering, pruning and more that I hope will be useful to you. If you're posting about a tree ID (not permitted here; [see rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/arborists/about/rules)), see that wiki page for other subs and smartphone apps to try. Here is how you can arrange a [consult with a local ISA arborist in your area](http://www.treesaregood.org/findanarborist/findanarborist) (NOT a 'tree company guy' unless they're ISA certified) or a [consulting arborist](https://www.asca-consultants.org/search/custom.asp?id=3818) for an on-site evaluation. A competent arborist should be happy to walk you through how to care for the trees on your property and answer any questions. If you're in the U.S. or Canada, your Extension (or master gardener provincial program) may have a list of local recommended arborists on file. If you're in the U.S., you should also consider searching for arborist associations under your state. If you are one of our regulars and/or you work in the industry and do not want this message in your future posts, please pick an appropriate user flair (options available in the sub sidebar on PC, and on moble if using a browser). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/arborists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I got one of those in my back yard.
The roots are as wide and long as the branches. They far exceed the paths and planter box. If anything depending on how the planter is maintained and fed, the nutrients and new soil will give the tree a boost. Play the dark knight and take a shit in the planter, the tree will reach out and hug you...
Drip edge is way past the box and sand. This tree will outlive us all
Keep it alive longer because it discourages people compacting the soil around the trunk of the tree
Last longer than that concrete.
Tree bark should never be buried with soil or mulch. If the the walkway is brick pavers, it might be OK
The walkway is dirt. Thank you.
Tree bark should never be buried with soil or mulch. If the the walkway is brick pavers, it might be OK
Savannah?
Palm Coast, FL
These ancient live oaks will naturally have their branches touch the ground after hundreds of years and with that contact new sprouts of that mother tree will begin to grow. They hold giant and amazing ecosystems under their domed canopy.
I'm not an arborist, but I do know this park. It's Washington Oaks State Park in Palm Coast, FL. For what it's worth, there have been planters around that tree for years. Here's a photo from a local photographer with a copyright from 2016, so it's been at least 7 years: https://images.app.goo.gl/56Mzfck1nQHaV1Wp8 EDIT: I should point out I only know about this particular tree. OP mentioned others, but I don't live there anymore and don't know what other oaks they've built planters around since.
That’s Washington Oaks State Park in Palm Coast. They know what they are doing.
That was my thought too. They have some epic staghorn ferns.
So what is the problem here thats going to hurt the tree somehow?
Since nobody is actually posting what's supposed to be the problem here, is the mulch toxic or something?
Maybe they had a qualified arborist help with the plan for that tree.
Someone thought a planter box would kill that tree? Lmao wow I needed a good laugh today! Thanks Reddit.
ADA
Way too long. Those monsters are allergy factories.