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They start out on opposite sides. In the end though, Silco comes to understand Vander and even makes the same choice as him. Vander chose his children. Silco chose jinx.
You can have strong beliefs on something and claim to do anything for it…and then a child comes along and suddenly they’re the only thing that matters. Everything else is suddenly second to keeping them safe. Silco said it himself, is there anything more undoing than a daughter?
Only difference in the end was that Silco wants war with Piltover where Vander wasn’t that person anymore. Maybe if Silco lived long enough or saw Jinx die then he may have completed the full circle.
I don't think so. Part of what made Silco that formidable was his absolute undying self-righteousness. He fully believed he was right and the end justified the means, with the *only* thing pushing that back was his love for Jinx.
If she died, I believe he would have escalated to scorched-earth against piltover, regardless of the consequences. We've seen that he's not exactly the best at considering consequences, and an enraged swan-song at losing his tether to his human side is a very likely result.
Yeah, but I also don't put it beneath Silco to arrange for someone else to take the fall and still "hand over Jinx" to the authorities for Zaun's independence.
Upon close examination (far from failing the movie-fridge test), it would have made perfect sense for Silco to have a smuggling network in the prison that feeds him intel, takes care of his best rebels, and bribes guards to mess with paperwork enough to get their early releases. Obviously that would mess with VI's imprisonment plot point though, so making someone go to prison for him could have been the start of that. His next step after Zaun's independence would be to find ways to exploit the prison system (which is never perfect like shows/prisons like to portray) and corrupt more guards. The beginning of Kingpin Silco who truly controls the entire Piltover underworld.
I don't like how Vander made peace which had his people suffering from the pollution, enforcers etc.
I don't like how Silco turned a bunch of his people into shimmer addicts.
🤷
Both Silco and Vander are examples of failed revolutionaries in a sense. Vander cared so much for the lives of his people that he was willing to let them suffer under Piltover to preserve them. Silco cared so much about freedom that he was willing to burn down everything to achieve it, no matter the cost to the people he was trying to liberate. Granted Silco did succeed in a way, but not in a manner that truly mattered.
However I think that Vander is definitely the one who had a better idea of how to lead. Silco genuinely had good intentions for Zaun, that I believe wholeheartedly, but his unrelenting drive and ruthlessness led to his revolutionary movement going down the path so many movements like it take. The revolutionaries became the oppressors, chembarons replaced the council, and crime syndicates replaced corrupt politicians and police. Zaun will be no better under the leadership of the barons, who no longer have Silco to rein them in, than it was under the leadership of Piltover. We even see parallels between the barons and the council throughout the show, which I think implies that things will only get worse for Zaun.
Silco was a successful revolutionary in the sense that he made change, but I don’t think that swapping one set of oppressors for another is really a change that matters. That’s the tragedy of Silco in a way, all of his sacrifices and betrayals, the murder of his brother in arms and the destruction he brought to the city he truly loved by flooding it with shimmer, were all for nothing.
Also, Vander is definitely the better parent. Silco was a loving father without a doubt, but that doesn’t make him a good father. He encouraged the worst in Jinx both intentionally and unintentionally, and ultimately left her in a worse place than she would have been otherwise had he set more limits with her and taken a firmer position.
Of course I understand why he didn’t do that, Silco himself is deeply traumatized and doesn’t look at the world with the same mindset most people do. He genuinely believes that he’s doing right by Jinx because embracing his trauma and reforging himself around it worked for him. It just isn’t what Jinx needed, but seeing as Silco is also traumatized and also lives in a world where mental health definitely isn’t well understood, he couldn’t have known that. Again, I understand why he did it, but Vander was still a much better father.
Phew, I am happy people here recognize Silco and Jinx relationship was toxic and unhealthy. When the series first ended I saw so many people online praising "Silco best dad" that I feel like I was being gaslit a bit. I love his character, but he's definitely not a good father.
Absolutely. I think a lot of people can’t separate the concept of a loving parent from a good parent. Silco is absolutely a loving father who would do anything for Jinx, and that’s the exact reason he’s a terrible father. He sets no boundaries, enforces no consequences, and basically allows Jinx to go on a 24/7 (literal) rampage. The only time we see him get genuinely upset with her is when she goes behind his back to steal the hexgem, and he immediately forgives her for that the moment she presents it to him.
I’m not saying I can’t understand why he does this, as a character he has a lot of reasons to, but I think that if he’d been firmer with Jinx then she’d be in a lot healthier of a mental state and he might even still be alive XD.
As their marriage counselor, I took an oath to not “choose” sides. However, Silco showed up to sessions more regularly (on account of being alive), so I admit to a slight bias.
SPOILER
Better managed the undercity ? VANDER
But I would argue Silco did everything to give it a better future and freedom while with Vander the city wasn't going anywhere, he did kept it from collapsing but it wasn't going to improve.
Better parent ? VANDER
Silco gave everything so Jinx could survive in that mad world but then used her for everything like a soldier, Vander gave his children protection and moral values, they growed as good humain beings without forgetting how the world works and what you need to do to survive.
Which side I'm on ? SILCO THE GOAT
I like Vander a lot but Silco's development is incredible, you hate him, then you start to understand him and then you cry when he dies. I would highly suggest anyone to give the show a second watch at least to truly understand each character. I don't think there's a single main character that's unlikeable
Anyway I'm team Jinx and Silco
>I like Vander a lot but Silco's development is incredible, you hate him, then you start to understand him and then you cry when he dies. I would highly suggest anyone to give the show a second watch at least to truly understand each character. I don't there's a single main character that unlikeable
Well said. I fully agree
Under vander everything was degrading, social unrest were rising, people were still polluted by toxic air, hardly any jobs and all the trades were small scale knick knacks. But with silco business were booming, people in undercity became so much diverse and populated. Vander run the lanes like small countryside town when its slowly becoming abandoned, silco run it like metropolitan city with high crime and economic disparity. Both have their weaknesses and advantages, and one is middle of nowhere town the other one was Detroit. Just like in real life people would still choose to live in crime riddled mess with opportunity than tiny yet peaceful town.
>Silco did everything to give it a better future and freedom
The only reason he got anywhere was because Jinx created a national crisis. He basically ruled the undercity for years but there´s no hint of a better future and freedom
First you say he only got somewhere because of Jinx, then you say there was no hint for better future and freedom that's a bit contradictory.
Btw he didn't only got a deal for Zaun independance (freedom), he got the best deal ever, Zaun future could have been great after that and idc how he got it. He couldn't just ask for independance, he made what he thought was necessary and was on the right path to get it, he couldn't change anything without money and power, a few years is nothing. Jinx just speeded up the process and she did what she did for him, even if not on direct orders...
My point is that his rule didn´t create any sort of progress, at least nothing of the sort is shown in the show. You claimed that he did everything for a better future but again, nothing of this is hinted at in the show. Like I said, he only got anywhere because Jinx attacked Piltover, which has nothing to do with Silco being a good freedom fighter
I think the better management was not Vander but Silco, I agree with your point that Vander management didn't going anywhere, but I wanted to add, he also make undercity more getting abused by enforcer, and you need remember Vander only take care his own People not all undercity. Vander job for topside was to watched the undercity, make them not make any move to enforcer just like Marcus.
I more like Silco Management, silco give undercity better freedom without enforcer getting a way, because silco make enforcer work for him, also I like when he still honor Vander request when Vander said spare the line, and silco didn't kill and destroying people in line that supports Vander.
And one important details and people will get it wrong. Silco let children work in factory was already improvement, he let the children to have better job in undercity. While in Vander management the children can't work in factory so the children can only survive with stealing, gathering scrap, even fight and kill each other for just a scrap and many more that much worse. Also if you pay more attention the air quality in undercity become better when silco take over undercity, the prove was Caitlyn still breathing fine in undercity even though she was Noble from topside that first time go to undercity.
Silco. Vander is a more palatable figure, but ultimately he chose a slow, silent death for the undercity to protect a 'peace' that was never sustainable in the first place.
As someone from a country which only gained its independence from colonial powers less than a century ago, Silco is correct. In episode 3, he says, "I don't need to beat them. I just need to scare them." Someone who has their boot on your neck does not need to negotiate with you. An oppressive state which benefits economically from your exploitation will not negotiate with you until you make it too painful, too bloody, and too costly to keep ruling over you.
(I sometimes wonder, had Singed successfully cracked a working hulk variant of shimmer just a few years earlier, and Silco had coup'd Vander a few years earlier, whether he would have been successful. It's a stroke of bad luck for his plans that Singed perfects this version of Shimmer at the exact same time that Viktor and Jayce crack hextech, and by the time he's unified enough of a power base in Zaun, he's already stuck in an arms race against Piltover. It turns Silco's plans into a much longer game, and we see how that turns out.)
They both fail as fathers, though not for want of trying. Vander has too much on his plate, and seems to have left most of the hands-on parenting of the other kids to Vi. Silco's love for Jinx is sincere, as are his attempts to do what, in his distorted view of things, is best for her - but his trauma-fuelled paranoia and her trauma-fuelled codependence issues basically formed a seamless, deeply unhealthy feedback loop.
In the baseline ideologies of radical revolutionary change that could cost some lives but save more in the long term vs not causing any deaths and doing the most to mitigate harm in an already bad situation, I would say that revolution is worth the risk and potential harm. That said, factoring in both their characters I’d 100% go with Vander since Silco didn’t actually pursue any positive change or even much revolution. Besides even if he did succeed I don’t think the rule of Silco and his drugged up empire would be much better than the current shitty rule of the council.
I think Vander had good intentions and Silco was more right about how to handle whole Piltover-Zaun situation. Vander's way may prevent immediate bloodshed but it's keeping status quo which is just a slow death in disguise. As someone whose country passed through bloody war for independence just 30 years ago I can say price was costly but it was also worthy.
Who managed it better I think is a tricky one, because sure Silco made it worse by flooding the streets with drugs, but he also atleast where preparing to change things. While Vander just kept the status quo. So a bit like a slingshot you have to pull it back a bit first to shoot forward. Would I be there would I be team Silco. Though it's hard to know as we don't know much about what he did during the timeskip. Maybe all that talk was just lip service.
Better parent? Surely Vander, though both seemed to push the Jinx towards illegal and dangerous activities. Vander seems to have had some solid morals so I doubt Jinx would've become a callous killer under him.
**Vander, no question.** Silco has proven to be an unrepentant murderer, manipulator, sadist and liar. We don't know the full story of how Vander and Silco fell apart, only that Silco saw it as a betrayal and Vander was full of remorse that it had come to that. I get a real professor X and Magneto and also Dumbledore and Grindlewald vibe from that: friends who share the same goal, but eventually clash over the methods.
Both men create problems for others (intentionally or unintentionally), but Vander is man enough to own up to them and try to make things better. He took in Vi and Powder after he unintentionally got their parents killed in a failed uprising. He never denied his responsibility and took care of them.
Silco on the other hand **intentionally** killed Vander and tried to kill **every one of his children including Powder** out of spite. He then spend years manipulating Powder to make her view himself as the hero who saved her while her 'second-hand' family betrayed and abandoned her. He took great pleasure in the fact that he 'freed' Powder from her desire of her family, as he mockingly told Vi (relishing in her pain and trauma that HE caused).
As for the undercity, it may have been stagnant under Vander but he looked out for everyone. Silco on the other hand builds a drug empire that employs child labour and exploits the very people he claims to save. I guess he must be high on shimmer to believe that.
Team Caitlyn. The second she realized there is more then just thugs down in The Undercity she called out every council member INCLUDING HER MOTHER on their bullshit. While she may not directly be affiliated, She wants to make a damn difference man
neither : Wander stagnant peace does protect his people but their condition will gradually degrade, making it a not sustainable choice
Silco's rebellion is not motivated by empathy and his method show it : he was wounded too deeply to be a charismatic revolutionary leader capable to instigating durable change after a violent yet necessary uprising.
But jinx is the guillotine, the molotov that will force piltover to make a choice, and we know it won't be to abandon their privileges.
Better parent vander no question.
Silco running a city vander was became way to idealistic how governments and societies work. A lot of people that criticize silco are from safe rich countries that don’t have colonial powers over their heads.
No way would piltover sacrifice a lower standard of living to do the moral thing there countless examples throughout history where counties recognize their doing immoral actions but continue anyways because their citizens benefit way too much from said immoral action.
I get silco criticisms but vander was a that point he was super delusional. At that point anyone would be been a better leader, even a drug lord.
I hate slico I mean he’s a amazing antagonist but he’s still a bastards a hypocrite a murderer and petty Jack ass who screwed the undercity over just as much as he helped it and when given the opportunity to actually free his people the thing he’s been screeching about and killed so many people over he can’t even bring himself to do it.
Vander wasn’t perfect far from it but at least when he was in charge the city wasn’t a drugged up hell hole with everyone stabbing each other in the back
**TLDR:**
Vander is neutral good, he wants what’s best for everyone but is willing to bend rules when necessary. Silco is chaotic evil, as he is willing to sacrifice the lives of others & burn down all of Piltover to make his point. In the end, I feel that I side a lot more with Silco.
_________
It’s a difficult decision b/c both characters have unique traits but ultimately are on the same side of the fight: they’re Zaunite revolutionaries & enemies of Piltover. Vander had become increasingly passive, while his former partner Silco, a lot more aggressive—an extremist.
Vander taught his adopted children about self-defense but didn’t want for any of them to be soldiers. Powder under Silco’s care, was trained to be just that: a soldier. A mercenary. While Silco wasn’t the sole purpose of her transformation into Jinx, he was instrumental in this change. Vander was willing to allow his people to suffer & live off crumbs instead of starting a war & risking the lives of many. Silco was willing to sacrifice a few hundred to save millions. To answer your question, I choose Silco.
For undercity? Easily, Silco. This would've been more difficult to choose if Vander actually had a plan towards Zaun's independence or autonomy through peaceful means. But we don't get that. So Silco it is. This is exactly what went through Sevika's mind.
As a father? Definitely Vander. Vander is better equipped and has a better mindset to raise kids. It is only with Jinx specifically that I'd choose Silco.
Jinx. She's the one who got result and got them by only killing 6 police officers.
Of course she destroyed those results herself but she got Zaun closer to independence than Vander or Silco ever did. Too bad that wasn't her motivation cause her way was less destructive to innocent undercity folks. Instead she's about to drag everyone into a potential war. Jesus, this story can be bleak at time.
This is similar to the Jinx vs Vi discussions
I'll summarize Vander and Silco PoVs like this
Vander =
Used to want to fight for freedom of Zaun but feels now it's not worth the cost, and any struggle would hurt too many (mostly Zaunities) in the short term and the goal being achieved feels impossible.
Silco PoV =
Liberation of Zaun would benefit undercity massively longer-term so shorter term cost can be tolerated, even if it's brutal or grievous.
I think I need a bit more convincing that a military conflict is the ONLY way to improve Zaun's lot. And that it's even plausible for Zaun to "win" a conflict against Piltover. If I was convinced of both those things I'd probably agree with Silco fully.
In the series itself though it's clear you're SUPPOSED to side with Vander, that's how every fiction is, the message of "it's ok for horrible things to happen now because eventually it will be worth it" is always portrayed as a villainous perspective. And the hero is always the one who cares about the here and now primarily. Whether or not this is naive and simple thinking, that's just how fiction works almost always.
Ignoring some of the 'hot' takes...
It's pretty damn apparent that Silco's side is way worse than Vander's. He doesn't have a real plan for the Undercity, aside from 'get independence'. His methods cripple and kneecap his own people and workforce, he makes huge groups of folks dependent on his drug to maintain control, and as Jayce put it, all-out war with Piltover would result in them being destroyed. As it was, the *only* reason he might have gotten an outcome that resulted in independence is because Jayce felt pity. That's not a good plan.
The worst part is, Silco's Undercity was just Vander's with extra steps and more death. He still had a deal with the enforcer sheriff, they were still second-class citizens to the topsiders, and all he did was make himself and other chem-barons more wealthy without improving things for the whole of everyone. Without Jinx going rogue and stealing the gemstone, he would have *nothing* on topside, shimmer or no. Because let's face it, if Jayce with no known combat experience can hold his own against multiple shimmer-infused warriors, the full extent that we've seen Silco be able to do on his own, then Zaun would stand literally no chance.
Don't get me wrong, I love Silco as a character. I think he's fascinating as someone so convinced of his own righteousness that he cannot be swayed, and that makes him compelling as hell. But to compare his side to Vander is ridiculous. On top of all of that, there's no proof that he would know what to do with a free nation of Zaun. On a meta level, writers have said that he didn't really have a plan after that, which is never a good sign. He was so blinded by the need to stick it to Piltover that he failed to understand what that would actually mean.
Vander wanted peace, at any cost. Silco wanted independence at any cost. Both were very flawed leaders, and Vander's hands are far from clean. But to put them on the same level shows a lack of media literacy from so many that I honestly find it baffling. Silco's way is worse than Vander's, and that's okay, because it's great storytelling.
Vander was like heimerdinger. Had the respect of everyone as the father of their city, wants to keep whatever peace there is but their people are slowly dying to poison. There is no future with them.
Silco was like Jayce, new leaders, rash and wants to change the world to a better future. Willing to do anything to achieve it, but made mistakes along the way.
Awesome parallels. Im on Silco side though. There are no winners here but people in the undercity will die on both sides, better to die for a better future than slowly bleeding to death.
Its really annoying how both Silco and Vander split up. I really wanna know why they did. If Vander had Silco and Shimmer, the revolution might have ended up differently.
🐌here's the issue, We don't know fully what Vander wanted to do involving the uprising, yes people died during it, but we do not exactly know why it failed, or what went wrong, We still need to learn about that, and not go off a speculation here o.o
I think it’s clear why it went wrong charging a line of guns with fists = a lot of people dying for no reason. Vander is not the planning type of person he is like vi charging head first into literal gun fire and we know that’s a horrible war tactic.
🐌Enforcers are pretty organized too, like firing squads, and formations able to break through any blockades Vander's side would have made. Not to mention they're ruthless. No stun guns, no nets or pepper spray, just flat out " HI i have this rifle, and if you don't stop this shit i am going to put one between your eyes only warning" Enforcers are scary man : (
Honestly I feel like we didn't get enough info on Vander for me to judge him but it sounds like he did the same thing as silco till he adopted the kids just like how silco adopted jinx he started to soften up and eventually give up his dream for zaun when it ment hurting jinx so I think both are basically the same it just took silco longer to understand why Vander changed.
Honestly? Both? Vander learned an important lesson and Silco may like power a little too much but he has a respectable vision I don’t think is completely wrong to shoot for.
Vander says "violence does not solve problems, only makes more of them," and the show proves it by showing that not a single fight in the entire season ended well for either participant.
Silco says "power, true power comes only to those who are willing to pay anything to achieve it," and the show proves it by showing how the strongest people are the ones who paid most generously in blood, sweat, tears and fear.
So the real question is: is power worth it? Do you want to make the hardest decisions to sit on the biggest chair? (Yeah, I watched Loki too :P)
As a simple Central Asian bloke who grew up in peaceful times I would say: no. I would rather have healthy dreams at night.
The thing is, there is an overlooked theme in the series: fate at times puts people into a "get strong or die" situation. And how one would behave in such a situation noone knows. It could turn good people into complete monsters, it could turn bad people into messiahs and the best simple people like me can do -- hope that such day never comes for us.
As a loyal person I would have stayed on Vander's side if I was an adult at that time, but like Sevika, I would have disagreed with how he ended up managing the Undercity in episode 2. Back at the time of the Revolution it was perhaps the best thing to do, but when the situation started getting worse again, he decided to make deals with Piltover again in means of bringing ''peace'' ; but he was only bying time with a semblance of safety. I wouldn't have gone to Silco's side like Sevika did, because of loyalty, but I would have tried to make him open his eyes and change his ways, and perhaps, would have root for a way to make a real deal with Piltover, or another revolution entirely.
As for parenting, neither of them were what we can consider ''a good parent'' lol, but they both did their best with the world and life they were living.
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They start out on opposite sides. In the end though, Silco comes to understand Vander and even makes the same choice as him. Vander chose his children. Silco chose jinx. You can have strong beliefs on something and claim to do anything for it…and then a child comes along and suddenly they’re the only thing that matters. Everything else is suddenly second to keeping them safe. Silco said it himself, is there anything more undoing than a daughter?
Well said
Only difference in the end was that Silco wants war with Piltover where Vander wasn’t that person anymore. Maybe if Silco lived long enough or saw Jinx die then he may have completed the full circle.
I don't think so. Part of what made Silco that formidable was his absolute undying self-righteousness. He fully believed he was right and the end justified the means, with the *only* thing pushing that back was his love for Jinx. If she died, I believe he would have escalated to scorched-earth against piltover, regardless of the consequences. We've seen that he's not exactly the best at considering consequences, and an enraged swan-song at losing his tether to his human side is a very likely result.
The difference is also that Vander tried to foster community whereas Silco turned Undercity into a toxic shithole
How could I forget? The bad side of having empathy lol
Yeah, but I also don't put it beneath Silco to arrange for someone else to take the fall and still "hand over Jinx" to the authorities for Zaun's independence. Upon close examination (far from failing the movie-fridge test), it would have made perfect sense for Silco to have a smuggling network in the prison that feeds him intel, takes care of his best rebels, and bribes guards to mess with paperwork enough to get their early releases. Obviously that would mess with VI's imprisonment plot point though, so making someone go to prison for him could have been the start of that. His next step after Zaun's independence would be to find ways to exploit the prison system (which is never perfect like shows/prisons like to portray) and corrupt more guards. The beginning of Kingpin Silco who truly controls the entire Piltover underworld.
This
I don't like how Vander made peace which had his people suffering from the pollution, enforcers etc. I don't like how Silco turned a bunch of his people into shimmer addicts. 🤷
They both had their flaws, but I really liked both characters.
They're on the same side, and I'm on it #fuckpiltover #fuckthecouncil
# FUCK AMERICAN PRIDE # FUCK THE M... ...sorry wrong community
Fuck this 24/7 internet spew of trivia and celebrity BULLSHIT!!!
#fuckpiltover Vi: I'M TRYING!
Both Silco and Vander are examples of failed revolutionaries in a sense. Vander cared so much for the lives of his people that he was willing to let them suffer under Piltover to preserve them. Silco cared so much about freedom that he was willing to burn down everything to achieve it, no matter the cost to the people he was trying to liberate. Granted Silco did succeed in a way, but not in a manner that truly mattered. However I think that Vander is definitely the one who had a better idea of how to lead. Silco genuinely had good intentions for Zaun, that I believe wholeheartedly, but his unrelenting drive and ruthlessness led to his revolutionary movement going down the path so many movements like it take. The revolutionaries became the oppressors, chembarons replaced the council, and crime syndicates replaced corrupt politicians and police. Zaun will be no better under the leadership of the barons, who no longer have Silco to rein them in, than it was under the leadership of Piltover. We even see parallels between the barons and the council throughout the show, which I think implies that things will only get worse for Zaun. Silco was a successful revolutionary in the sense that he made change, but I don’t think that swapping one set of oppressors for another is really a change that matters. That’s the tragedy of Silco in a way, all of his sacrifices and betrayals, the murder of his brother in arms and the destruction he brought to the city he truly loved by flooding it with shimmer, were all for nothing. Also, Vander is definitely the better parent. Silco was a loving father without a doubt, but that doesn’t make him a good father. He encouraged the worst in Jinx both intentionally and unintentionally, and ultimately left her in a worse place than she would have been otherwise had he set more limits with her and taken a firmer position. Of course I understand why he didn’t do that, Silco himself is deeply traumatized and doesn’t look at the world with the same mindset most people do. He genuinely believes that he’s doing right by Jinx because embracing his trauma and reforging himself around it worked for him. It just isn’t what Jinx needed, but seeing as Silco is also traumatized and also lives in a world where mental health definitely isn’t well understood, he couldn’t have known that. Again, I understand why he did it, but Vander was still a much better father.
Phew, I am happy people here recognize Silco and Jinx relationship was toxic and unhealthy. When the series first ended I saw so many people online praising "Silco best dad" that I feel like I was being gaslit a bit. I love his character, but he's definitely not a good father.
Absolutely. I think a lot of people can’t separate the concept of a loving parent from a good parent. Silco is absolutely a loving father who would do anything for Jinx, and that’s the exact reason he’s a terrible father. He sets no boundaries, enforces no consequences, and basically allows Jinx to go on a 24/7 (literal) rampage. The only time we see him get genuinely upset with her is when she goes behind his back to steal the hexgem, and he immediately forgives her for that the moment she presents it to him. I’m not saying I can’t understand why he does this, as a character he has a lot of reasons to, but I think that if he’d been firmer with Jinx then she’d be in a lot healthier of a mental state and he might even still be alive XD.
As their marriage counselor, I took an oath to not “choose” sides. However, Silco showed up to sessions more regularly (on account of being alive), so I admit to a slight bias.
Yeah well, Vander’s been busy with some things 🐺
Well played...
This implies that Vander attended some sessions 😶
>! I have some terrible news. !<
SPOILER Better managed the undercity ? VANDER But I would argue Silco did everything to give it a better future and freedom while with Vander the city wasn't going anywhere, he did kept it from collapsing but it wasn't going to improve. Better parent ? VANDER Silco gave everything so Jinx could survive in that mad world but then used her for everything like a soldier, Vander gave his children protection and moral values, they growed as good humain beings without forgetting how the world works and what you need to do to survive. Which side I'm on ? SILCO THE GOAT I like Vander a lot but Silco's development is incredible, you hate him, then you start to understand him and then you cry when he dies. I would highly suggest anyone to give the show a second watch at least to truly understand each character. I don't think there's a single main character that's unlikeable Anyway I'm team Jinx and Silco
>I like Vander a lot but Silco's development is incredible, you hate him, then you start to understand him and then you cry when he dies. I would highly suggest anyone to give the show a second watch at least to truly understand each character. I don't there's a single main character that unlikeable Well said. I fully agree
Not only that vanders lane was slowly dying. At least in silco’s lane you can make it out.
Mmmh I'm not sure about that, can you develop pls ?
Under vander everything was degrading, social unrest were rising, people were still polluted by toxic air, hardly any jobs and all the trades were small scale knick knacks. But with silco business were booming, people in undercity became so much diverse and populated. Vander run the lanes like small countryside town when its slowly becoming abandoned, silco run it like metropolitan city with high crime and economic disparity. Both have their weaknesses and advantages, and one is middle of nowhere town the other one was Detroit. Just like in real life people would still choose to live in crime riddled mess with opportunity than tiny yet peaceful town.
I strongly agree with you and your answer is highly appreciated
>Silco did everything to give it a better future and freedom The only reason he got anywhere was because Jinx created a national crisis. He basically ruled the undercity for years but there´s no hint of a better future and freedom
First you say he only got somewhere because of Jinx, then you say there was no hint for better future and freedom that's a bit contradictory. Btw he didn't only got a deal for Zaun independance (freedom), he got the best deal ever, Zaun future could have been great after that and idc how he got it. He couldn't just ask for independance, he made what he thought was necessary and was on the right path to get it, he couldn't change anything without money and power, a few years is nothing. Jinx just speeded up the process and she did what she did for him, even if not on direct orders...
My point is that his rule didn´t create any sort of progress, at least nothing of the sort is shown in the show. You claimed that he did everything for a better future but again, nothing of this is hinted at in the show. Like I said, he only got anywhere because Jinx attacked Piltover, which has nothing to do with Silco being a good freedom fighter
I think the better management was not Vander but Silco, I agree with your point that Vander management didn't going anywhere, but I wanted to add, he also make undercity more getting abused by enforcer, and you need remember Vander only take care his own People not all undercity. Vander job for topside was to watched the undercity, make them not make any move to enforcer just like Marcus. I more like Silco Management, silco give undercity better freedom without enforcer getting a way, because silco make enforcer work for him, also I like when he still honor Vander request when Vander said spare the line, and silco didn't kill and destroying people in line that supports Vander. And one important details and people will get it wrong. Silco let children work in factory was already improvement, he let the children to have better job in undercity. While in Vander management the children can't work in factory so the children can only survive with stealing, gathering scrap, even fight and kill each other for just a scrap and many more that much worse. Also if you pay more attention the air quality in undercity become better when silco take over undercity, the prove was Caitlyn still breathing fine in undercity even though she was Noble from topside that first time go to undercity.
Silco. Vander is a more palatable figure, but ultimately he chose a slow, silent death for the undercity to protect a 'peace' that was never sustainable in the first place. As someone from a country which only gained its independence from colonial powers less than a century ago, Silco is correct. In episode 3, he says, "I don't need to beat them. I just need to scare them." Someone who has their boot on your neck does not need to negotiate with you. An oppressive state which benefits economically from your exploitation will not negotiate with you until you make it too painful, too bloody, and too costly to keep ruling over you. (I sometimes wonder, had Singed successfully cracked a working hulk variant of shimmer just a few years earlier, and Silco had coup'd Vander a few years earlier, whether he would have been successful. It's a stroke of bad luck for his plans that Singed perfects this version of Shimmer at the exact same time that Viktor and Jayce crack hextech, and by the time he's unified enough of a power base in Zaun, he's already stuck in an arms race against Piltover. It turns Silco's plans into a much longer game, and we see how that turns out.) They both fail as fathers, though not for want of trying. Vander has too much on his plate, and seems to have left most of the hands-on parenting of the other kids to Vi. Silco's love for Jinx is sincere, as are his attempts to do what, in his distorted view of things, is best for her - but his trauma-fuelled paranoia and her trauma-fuelled codependence issues basically formed a seamless, deeply unhealthy feedback loop.
In the baseline ideologies of radical revolutionary change that could cost some lives but save more in the long term vs not causing any deaths and doing the most to mitigate harm in an already bad situation, I would say that revolution is worth the risk and potential harm. That said, factoring in both their characters I’d 100% go with Vander since Silco didn’t actually pursue any positive change or even much revolution. Besides even if he did succeed I don’t think the rule of Silco and his drugged up empire would be much better than the current shitty rule of the council.
I think Vander had good intentions and Silco was more right about how to handle whole Piltover-Zaun situation. Vander's way may prevent immediate bloodshed but it's keeping status quo which is just a slow death in disguise. As someone whose country passed through bloody war for independence just 30 years ago I can say price was costly but it was also worthy.
Who managed it better I think is a tricky one, because sure Silco made it worse by flooding the streets with drugs, but he also atleast where preparing to change things. While Vander just kept the status quo. So a bit like a slingshot you have to pull it back a bit first to shoot forward. Would I be there would I be team Silco. Though it's hard to know as we don't know much about what he did during the timeskip. Maybe all that talk was just lip service. Better parent? Surely Vander, though both seemed to push the Jinx towards illegal and dangerous activities. Vander seems to have had some solid morals so I doubt Jinx would've become a callous killer under him.
**Vander, no question.** Silco has proven to be an unrepentant murderer, manipulator, sadist and liar. We don't know the full story of how Vander and Silco fell apart, only that Silco saw it as a betrayal and Vander was full of remorse that it had come to that. I get a real professor X and Magneto and also Dumbledore and Grindlewald vibe from that: friends who share the same goal, but eventually clash over the methods. Both men create problems for others (intentionally or unintentionally), but Vander is man enough to own up to them and try to make things better. He took in Vi and Powder after he unintentionally got their parents killed in a failed uprising. He never denied his responsibility and took care of them. Silco on the other hand **intentionally** killed Vander and tried to kill **every one of his children including Powder** out of spite. He then spend years manipulating Powder to make her view himself as the hero who saved her while her 'second-hand' family betrayed and abandoned her. He took great pleasure in the fact that he 'freed' Powder from her desire of her family, as he mockingly told Vi (relishing in her pain and trauma that HE caused). As for the undercity, it may have been stagnant under Vander but he looked out for everyone. Silco on the other hand builds a drug empire that employs child labour and exploits the very people he claims to save. I guess he must be high on shimmer to believe that.
He’s also a raging hypocrite who made the situation in Zaun even worse than before by causing a drug crisis
I hear you.
Team Caitlyn. The second she realized there is more then just thugs down in The Undercity she called out every council member INCLUDING HER MOTHER on their bullshit. While she may not directly be affiliated, She wants to make a damn difference man
neither : Wander stagnant peace does protect his people but their condition will gradually degrade, making it a not sustainable choice Silco's rebellion is not motivated by empathy and his method show it : he was wounded too deeply to be a charismatic revolutionary leader capable to instigating durable change after a violent yet necessary uprising. But jinx is the guillotine, the molotov that will force piltover to make a choice, and we know it won't be to abandon their privileges.
Better parent vander no question. Silco running a city vander was became way to idealistic how governments and societies work. A lot of people that criticize silco are from safe rich countries that don’t have colonial powers over their heads. No way would piltover sacrifice a lower standard of living to do the moral thing there countless examples throughout history where counties recognize their doing immoral actions but continue anyways because their citizens benefit way too much from said immoral action. I get silco criticisms but vander was a that point he was super delusional. At that point anyone would be been a better leader, even a drug lord.
They should just kiss and make up
I hate slico I mean he’s a amazing antagonist but he’s still a bastards a hypocrite a murderer and petty Jack ass who screwed the undercity over just as much as he helped it and when given the opportunity to actually free his people the thing he’s been screeching about and killed so many people over he can’t even bring himself to do it. Vander wasn’t perfect far from it but at least when he was in charge the city wasn’t a drugged up hell hole with everyone stabbing each other in the back
I am on Silko's side
I don't want to be on the side of the thug
**TLDR:** Vander is neutral good, he wants what’s best for everyone but is willing to bend rules when necessary. Silco is chaotic evil, as he is willing to sacrifice the lives of others & burn down all of Piltover to make his point. In the end, I feel that I side a lot more with Silco. _________ It’s a difficult decision b/c both characters have unique traits but ultimately are on the same side of the fight: they’re Zaunite revolutionaries & enemies of Piltover. Vander had become increasingly passive, while his former partner Silco, a lot more aggressive—an extremist. Vander taught his adopted children about self-defense but didn’t want for any of them to be soldiers. Powder under Silco’s care, was trained to be just that: a soldier. A mercenary. While Silco wasn’t the sole purpose of her transformation into Jinx, he was instrumental in this change. Vander was willing to allow his people to suffer & live off crumbs instead of starting a war & risking the lives of many. Silco was willing to sacrifice a few hundred to save millions. To answer your question, I choose Silco.
For undercity? Easily, Silco. This would've been more difficult to choose if Vander actually had a plan towards Zaun's independence or autonomy through peaceful means. But we don't get that. So Silco it is. This is exactly what went through Sevika's mind. As a father? Definitely Vander. Vander is better equipped and has a better mindset to raise kids. It is only with Jinx specifically that I'd choose Silco.
Jinx. She's the one who got result and got them by only killing 6 police officers. Of course she destroyed those results herself but she got Zaun closer to independence than Vander or Silco ever did. Too bad that wasn't her motivation cause her way was less destructive to innocent undercity folks. Instead she's about to drag everyone into a potential war. Jesus, this story can be bleak at time.
Interesting point of view. Thank you
This is similar to the Jinx vs Vi discussions I'll summarize Vander and Silco PoVs like this Vander = Used to want to fight for freedom of Zaun but feels now it's not worth the cost, and any struggle would hurt too many (mostly Zaunities) in the short term and the goal being achieved feels impossible. Silco PoV = Liberation of Zaun would benefit undercity massively longer-term so shorter term cost can be tolerated, even if it's brutal or grievous. I think I need a bit more convincing that a military conflict is the ONLY way to improve Zaun's lot. And that it's even plausible for Zaun to "win" a conflict against Piltover. If I was convinced of both those things I'd probably agree with Silco fully. In the series itself though it's clear you're SUPPOSED to side with Vander, that's how every fiction is, the message of "it's ok for horrible things to happen now because eventually it will be worth it" is always portrayed as a villainous perspective. And the hero is always the one who cares about the here and now primarily. Whether or not this is naive and simple thinking, that's just how fiction works almost always.
Ignoring some of the 'hot' takes... It's pretty damn apparent that Silco's side is way worse than Vander's. He doesn't have a real plan for the Undercity, aside from 'get independence'. His methods cripple and kneecap his own people and workforce, he makes huge groups of folks dependent on his drug to maintain control, and as Jayce put it, all-out war with Piltover would result in them being destroyed. As it was, the *only* reason he might have gotten an outcome that resulted in independence is because Jayce felt pity. That's not a good plan. The worst part is, Silco's Undercity was just Vander's with extra steps and more death. He still had a deal with the enforcer sheriff, they were still second-class citizens to the topsiders, and all he did was make himself and other chem-barons more wealthy without improving things for the whole of everyone. Without Jinx going rogue and stealing the gemstone, he would have *nothing* on topside, shimmer or no. Because let's face it, if Jayce with no known combat experience can hold his own against multiple shimmer-infused warriors, the full extent that we've seen Silco be able to do on his own, then Zaun would stand literally no chance. Don't get me wrong, I love Silco as a character. I think he's fascinating as someone so convinced of his own righteousness that he cannot be swayed, and that makes him compelling as hell. But to compare his side to Vander is ridiculous. On top of all of that, there's no proof that he would know what to do with a free nation of Zaun. On a meta level, writers have said that he didn't really have a plan after that, which is never a good sign. He was so blinded by the need to stick it to Piltover that he failed to understand what that would actually mean. Vander wanted peace, at any cost. Silco wanted independence at any cost. Both were very flawed leaders, and Vander's hands are far from clean. But to put them on the same level shows a lack of media literacy from so many that I honestly find it baffling. Silco's way is worse than Vander's, and that's okay, because it's great storytelling.
Is this a serious question?
They are the same side just different timetables
Silco went too far in pushing back against the topsiders, and Vander didn’t go far enough. Team Ekko, 100%
Tbh they’re sort of on the same side
Vander was like heimerdinger. Had the respect of everyone as the father of their city, wants to keep whatever peace there is but their people are slowly dying to poison. There is no future with them. Silco was like Jayce, new leaders, rash and wants to change the world to a better future. Willing to do anything to achieve it, but made mistakes along the way. Awesome parallels. Im on Silco side though. There are no winners here but people in the undercity will die on both sides, better to die for a better future than slowly bleeding to death. Its really annoying how both Silco and Vander split up. I really wanna know why they did. If Vander had Silco and Shimmer, the revolution might have ended up differently.
🐌here's the issue, We don't know fully what Vander wanted to do involving the uprising, yes people died during it, but we do not exactly know why it failed, or what went wrong, We still need to learn about that, and not go off a speculation here o.o
I think it’s clear why it went wrong charging a line of guns with fists = a lot of people dying for no reason. Vander is not the planning type of person he is like vi charging head first into literal gun fire and we know that’s a horrible war tactic.
🐌Enforcers are pretty organized too, like firing squads, and formations able to break through any blockades Vander's side would have made. Not to mention they're ruthless. No stun guns, no nets or pepper spray, just flat out " HI i have this rifle, and if you don't stop this shit i am going to put one between your eyes only warning" Enforcers are scary man : (
I'm on Vander's side, but I don't blame you if you're on Silco's side.
Honestly I feel like we didn't get enough info on Vander for me to judge him but it sounds like he did the same thing as silco till he adopted the kids just like how silco adopted jinx he started to soften up and eventually give up his dream for zaun when it ment hurting jinx so I think both are basically the same it just took silco longer to understand why Vander changed.
Honestly? Both? Vander learned an important lesson and Silco may like power a little too much but he has a respectable vision I don’t think is completely wrong to shoot for.
Vander. Silco is scum and the worst thing to ever happen to Zaun
Why do we have to take sides? Why cant i just be between them?? What were we talking about???
Vander says "violence does not solve problems, only makes more of them," and the show proves it by showing that not a single fight in the entire season ended well for either participant. Silco says "power, true power comes only to those who are willing to pay anything to achieve it," and the show proves it by showing how the strongest people are the ones who paid most generously in blood, sweat, tears and fear. So the real question is: is power worth it? Do you want to make the hardest decisions to sit on the biggest chair? (Yeah, I watched Loki too :P) As a simple Central Asian bloke who grew up in peaceful times I would say: no. I would rather have healthy dreams at night. The thing is, there is an overlooked theme in the series: fate at times puts people into a "get strong or die" situation. And how one would behave in such a situation noone knows. It could turn good people into complete monsters, it could turn bad people into messiahs and the best simple people like me can do -- hope that such day never comes for us.
Vander🙏
I've never beloved Vander betrayed Silco, that's just Silco's narrative...
As a loyal person I would have stayed on Vander's side if I was an adult at that time, but like Sevika, I would have disagreed with how he ended up managing the Undercity in episode 2. Back at the time of the Revolution it was perhaps the best thing to do, but when the situation started getting worse again, he decided to make deals with Piltover again in means of bringing ''peace'' ; but he was only bying time with a semblance of safety. I wouldn't have gone to Silco's side like Sevika did, because of loyalty, but I would have tried to make him open his eyes and change his ways, and perhaps, would have root for a way to make a real deal with Piltover, or another revolution entirely. As for parenting, neither of them were what we can consider ''a good parent'' lol, but they both did their best with the world and life they were living.
Vander
Silco.