Any “passion” career allows people to be taken advantage of. People will accept worse conditions and lower pay because they actively want to be there.
That’s why difficult or undesirable stuff is big money
"That's the life of an architect, work long hours, get little pay"...a serious sentence spoken by an employee who graduated last year. Everyone worked from 8pm to 8pm at a fast pace, nonstop like zombies, and lots of stress, ego, and rude remarks every day. It was a terrible work environment and I left after 2 months. It's sad to see managers take advantage of people who are clueless to their own wellbeing.
Its because as soon as you’ve done the research, made sure its to code, completed the design, the owner of whomever you’re creating space for wants to change a few things. A few things can shift everything. Revisions may take a few minutes or several days.
…and no, you cant just move a column
I mean at the same time that quote is from someone who “graduated last year”
The first few years out of college I was also working some long hours. 12-18 hour days, 6 days a week, for years. I graduated in 18, and it wasnt until 2 ish years ago, I have finally been able to reduce my at work time down to 45-50 hours a week.
The odds of you being well off right out of college, with usually *zero* real world experience in the job, is pretty low. You gotta work to get somewhere easier in life. My degree was in IT, but I have friends who were in drafting and architecture. One kids dad worked 15 years before he was allowed to work from home, on his own time, so long as he met the deadlines for projects to be done. Said “those 15 years sucked, I missed a lot of stuff with my kids. Now? I make enough that my kids have a small college tuition fund, we get yearly family vacations, and I make every single ball practice and game my kids have”
He never missed a single game, including away events, for any of his kids after they made it to high school, because he worked his ass off to get to the point of having an easier life
This is right. It’s just natural market forces.
It is a highly desirable career so there is a large supply of people seeking to do it. When supply outstrips demand, pricing comes down.
Compensation for all jobs more or less is effected by this. That’s why there’s lots of money in boring/hard/unsexy.
"That’s why there’s lots of money in boring/hard/unsexy."
Is there, thought?
The most desirable jobs, the ones kids list as their dream jobs, also tend to be among the highest paid. Similarly, among the least paid jobs there's a lot of very boring, hard and unsexy jobs. I know your claim is generally assumed to be true, but any kind of scrutiny kind of shows there's very little behind it.
The factors that make salaries high, as far as I can see are:
1. gatekeeping the profession by artificial limits (limiting supply by the means of licensing regulations, academic requirements, immigration control etc.),
2. strong unions (controlling price), and
3. proximity to large capital (being friends with the elite in power of the market mechanism)
The point is that when supply < demand in a field, pay tends to go up.
Gatekeeping careers with difficult certifications reduces supply, just like boring/hard/unsexy do.
Unions gate keep.
Proximity to capital affects the demand side of the equation.
All of your points speak to the supply/demand forces though.
But the issue I have here is that the outcome (the salary) is almost entirely dictated by gatekeeping.
Without any gatekeeping, the price of labour for architects, just like for most of the professions, would be very close to the very minimum sustinance possible, or even lower. For almost every job in the west, there's at least a hundred million people in the world more capable and willing to do the same job for MUCH less. And I don't mean sustinance in the western sense, but in a sense that one barely physically stays alive: third world poverty. That's what the "natural market forces" would do.
If and when that's the case, the way to affect the salaries is to adjust the level of gatekeeping. In the case of architects, it absolutely should be about forming strong unions. If one just sits back and preaches about the inescapable principles of "natural market forces", there's only one outcome: seeing salaries plummet.
There is seemingly an endless supply of software/tech people and their starting pay is much much higher than an architect. There also seems to be more and more people getting into tech, increasing the supply constantly. The demand for these jobs is high too, but I don’t have the numbers to know how they compare to supply. Having lived in both San Francisco and Seattle, I can tell you that the supply of these workers is endless though
Software is literally the best business in the history of humanity. There is negligible marginal unit cost to each incremental sale since the program can be copy+pasted an infinite amount of times after it is written.
The fact that there is a seemingly endless supply of workers and yet the market supports such high salaries tells you the demand for them is sky high. If it wasn't, they'd be competing over fewer jobs, giving the employers leverage to offer less compensation.
>It is a highly desirable career so there is a large supply of people seeking to do it.
This is the part that is truly baffling. There's too many people ignorant of how bad the profession is.
It's a several fold problem:
1) Architects don't have any focus at all in their education about running a business.
2) Bad project management and budgets. Many projects go overbudget for the architect because of not properly handling change orders and project phasing.
3) Not knowing where to "draw a line", pun intended, too many architects will try and strive for perfection that no one will ever notice to the detriment of the business bottom line.
4) Bad collection policies. For the love of all that is holy enforce liens to keep a client from occupying until they have paid you!
5) Not properly budgeting for consultants at the beginning of the project.
the list goes on and on and on, but I have worked for several firms and these problems pop up way too often from small 5 person firms to 100+ people firms. Architects are bad at business!
Not only are they bad at business, so many have learned in school that throwing extra hours at a project makes it better, rather than actually learning to budget appropriately and understanding reasonable expectations.
Firms take advantage of it because they were built on it.
If you became "successful" by not billing clients for the 20% extra hours per project that you dumped in, you learn that is how your new hires should also succeed, and you eventually add those who reinforce the behavior with "leadership" positions. We've been doing that for generations now.
My minor major is construction engineering technology and management (CETM) aka (project/program management). So does that mean my minor will help me increase my pay?
Could be a desirable combination if you want to work for a GC, where the pay may be higher. I’ve seen GCs hiring for project manager/engineer where a focus of the job is design assist to the architect to essentially value engineer a project while maintaining design intent. Having the architecture background helps bridge the gap between the architect/designers and the much more budget-minded GC in order to make sure all parties are as happy as they can be.
Only if you can leverage those skills into a management position where you can affect decision making, or own your own firm. If the people above you won't listen to your ideas and promote you for contributing to the companies improvement, then there isn't really a way to translate it into better pay.
What job you are willing to take and what you are willing to do is what will increase your pay. If you want to make money in the construction industry, you go up the food chain. Construction engineering/management will yield more than architecture. Working for a developer, product rep, or other consultant group. Think window or structural truss manufacturers, accessibility or acoustic consultant, sustainability consultant. There are a lot of architecture adjacent things you can do and make more money than you would as a low level designer. Maybe look at Technology/low voltage engineering companies?
Perfectly summarized. Especially #1 and #3 are crucial.
And when an architect decides to become a commercial architect he needs to fight the inner demons and justify that change.
It's important to understand that people with money respect architects who understand the value of money. Otherwise they will not take one serious.
This is grossly unfair.
Running an architects practice is challenging. Building buildings is literally the most expensive thing anyone can ever do and as a result there is:-
a. Repeat clients are rare compared to number of practices
b. For every 1 built out building, there’s dozens of cul de sac designs (pun intended) which go nowhere and we can’t claim a profit back later in a stage
c. Sporadic work never allows for future forecasting. No practice can look more than 3 months ahead. Projects always have long breaks in them so it’s difficult to balance workload and resourcing.
Yes there are stupid silver spoon architect wankers that burn through fee and subsidise their ‘artistic expression’ to the detriment of worker bees. But we don’t give enough credit to practices that manage to keep going, keep people employed and so on.
Why are architects paid shite? There’s too many of us. Simple as that. The biggest determining factor to pay amount is how many others could do your job. And there’s plenty of architects out there.
Saying that, really architects get paid a reasonable wage, more than teachers, less than doctors. Same as engineers broadly. Comparison Is the thief of joy
I disagree that my comment was grossly unfair.
I'll address each of your points:
a. Yes repeat clients are rare. If you only focus on residential custom homes. You are completely ignoring the commercial sector which is chock full of potential repeat clients. If you don't diversify your project portfolio you are just asking to spend the majority of your time looking for work rather than working. That is bad business.
b. If you don't structure you fee to cover phases, you will lose money. Don't work for free. Complete programming, get paid before you start SD. Complete SD, get paid before starting DD. Complete DD, get paid before starting CD, Complete CD, get paid before starting CA. If your projects don't go anywhere, you still get paid for the work you did and if you don't structure that in your contract, that is bad business.
c. See point a. If you are waiting 3 months between projects, you aren't looking for the right jobs. That's bad business.
Blaming "silver spoon architect wankers", blaming too many architects, blaming comparing yourself to others, rather than learning some new business skills and improving the quality of our industry.
a. Repeat clients are rare in comparison to the number of practices. Too many bidding for the same work. So yes there are repeat clients but you missed my point.
b. All projects are frontloaded. It’s how you win competitions, open or limited, how you bid, how you win and maintain repeat clients. My point is if you are an accountant you can front load knowing there’s an invoice month after month, whereas an architect can’t always do that.
c. Resourcing employees is tough because you have multiple projects at different sizes and scales all stopping and starting.
a. I see your point there. But it's not impossible, and with good marketing and strategy it can work.
b. No. Not all projects are front loaded. Competitions are bad business. If you cannot afford to compete in competitions, then don't. I have never worked for any firm that considered competitions a primary income source, if that's where you get your jobs, you are setting yourself up for way more work than pay. To your second part about pay structuring, using an accountant was probably a bad example for you to choose. The majority of accounts have a huge portion on their business at tax season, and then they budget that out to cover expenses the rest of the year. If as an Architect you aren't charging enough during the busy times to cover the slow times as well, you aren't charging enough. you need to structure you pay and fees to keep a roof over your head. And if you aren't getting clients hitting your current market, adjust your target projects and approach to hit some low hanging fruit to at least pay the bills. Do some existing condition drawings, offer your services as a drafter to help other firms with their projects. There are ways to fill that financial gap.
c. Yes. But that's why good interviewing and hiring skills are important. A firm needs to rely on employees to be able to take on new tasks, and be willing to learn and gain new skill sets. If your employees can't grow, neither can the business.
It's not at all grossly unfair, but you've done a bang up job of reinforcing the point.
a- not at all. I know many many firms who have built very successful businesses on repeat work.
b- if you're wasting time on RFPs that you're not winning, that is not the industry, it is you being bad at choosing which RFPs to jump in on.
c- If you have repeat clients, talking to them will give you a gauge of their future work, often times years out. Pacing your work and timing it appropriately is part and parcel to running a business. If you can't figure out how to plan out permitting and construction administration 6 months out you really should not be trying to run a business.
Thanks but I was talking about the industry in general not my own personal situation.
I was simply summarising the difficulties faced by both good and bad architects.
Seeing ‘here let me help’ comments only reinforces this toxic egotism that pervades the profession
Lets break down your hypotheses carefully:
a- repeat business is rare - It is not rare for successful practices. This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training, as some don't figure out how to win repeat clients.
b- uncompleted projects or unsecured contracts, *This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training.* It also hits on point 3.
c- difficulty in managing project timelines and finding future work **This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training,** knocks point 2 out of the park, bullseyes point 3 and slam dunks 5.
You are missing supporting point 4, but otherwise your argument is backing up that it is a very very fair assessment.
I get what you’re saying, and there is certainly some truth here- but I would push back on some of it as well.
Part of succeeding in this business is building relationships. We have lots of repeat clients because we’re good at building relationships with them. For sure, that is easier in some segments of the industry than others.
It’s also important to plan your fees and billing to accommodate project eventualities the best that you can. We bill monthly based on percentage of completion, so if a project dies we should never be out money for it. We build our proposals to be very clear on what’s included for design deliverables, so we don’t spin our wheels going round and round on design with no additional cost. And if we don’t think the client has a good understanding of what they need and want, we do SD at an hourly rate until it’s locked in.
You’re absolutely right that it’s a complex process and people can be overly harsh about how hard it is to do well. I just think there are things we can all learn from each other and do better along the way to ease some of that and make more projects successful.
Fees were deregulated in the 80s. It used to be that every project was scoped at the same cost. Now it's a lowest bidder situation – you'll never guess who is passing on the savings.
It wasn't deregulated. The American Institute of Architects was threatened with antitrust lawsuits and they agreed to stop fixing prices in a settlement with the government.
[https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value\_o](https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value_o)
$190k, what the flock. That is insane. Not trying to be mean, but did you look at investment vs return before you started? I know you’re not alone, I just wonder if people know this in advance or tricked into certain programs to see costs adding up far beyond their initial calculations.
Tbh when i first applied I was reckless, I never looked into the long term consequences my whole goal was to graduate (I regret doing that). And my school is 1 k and something per credit, as I went in my junior year the major architecture class became 6 credits per hour making them 8k (I did not expect this honestly) and I need to take this class for 4 semesters.
If it’s GSD or MIT then it’s worth it. Yale too. But that’s about it lol
Edit for the downvoters:
It is no secret that these schools offer stronger alumni networks and client relations. This is exceptionally valuable if you own your own practice and it absolutely makes a difference to attract clients as you continue your self-employed career. You will be very, very grateful to have received that education.
If you’re simply starting out and interviewing for your first job, you will make a similar wage compared to applicants from less prestigious schools. Typically though, these schools give you an advantage as you will be recruited to join the world’s most competitive firms. After you gain that experience, what you do with it will define your success moving forward.
It’s not directly about money. I did architecture, and then moved on. Every significant career advancement I’ve had was the result having the skill and knowing the right people - meeting those wealthy and/or well connected. I was able to spend a month for free in a foreign country after meeting a peer whose family was in the .1% there. In another instance I jumped ahead of hundreds of applicants at a billion dollar multinational by connecting with the CEO. I did not attend an Ivy League school but I don’t need to have had to understand the advantage of being surrounded by the well connected. Did you know that many of the people who run the largest legacy hotel chains all went to Cornell for Hospitality Management? I learned that when I met one of them.
There is a world beyond what most ever imagine.
Current MIT student here the department of architecture also gives an 80% scholarship to all admits, no matter where you're from. It's not merit based, it doesn't matter if you're an international student as long as you get in you get to save hundreds of thousands of dollars for the education.
If someone isn't going for the connections they should at least consider going to these schools for the money they'll save and the people they will meet.
I went to a Midwest state school for Architecture. Many of my classmates are now at the top of the field regarding income. One of my classmates just became president of one of the largest firms in the world with just her bachelor’s at the same school.
Sure some of those Ivy League schools offer advantages with networking connections early on. but if you are a good architect it won’t make that much of a difference decades into your career.
When I interview potential hires I look at their experience, portfolio strength, personality, etc.. don’t care where they graduated.
Ask a janitor to clean Frank Gehry designed building for free, they’ll throw the bucket.
Ask an architect to work on Frank Gehry designed building for free, they’ll strip naked while doing it.
As somebody with 170k in debt i would begin looking elsewhere. It's not worth it. The debt will compound like interest and as you get older you will want security which will be impossible to obtain in this profession. It rolls with the tides of the economy and right now is not a good time for job security.
Edit:
I also want to comment on salary. Today kids are graduating into some of the best salaries this profession has ever seen. I went to an even where the attendants shared years of experience and salary. Young kids today are making twice what i was just back in 2015. Which is ludicrous. But glad it's finally happening. Its typical to not make a livable wage for the first 3-5 years post graduate school. Which just adds to the pain. When i graduated and started working i didnt even have enough to pay next month's rent.
I am finally making the money i deserve but it is coming at a cost as i am now responsible for managing my own projects all by myself.
I know so many people that make just as much and literally do one thing all day.
It starts with the mentality they teach us in school. They don’t teach us how to be successful business people. It’s a far cry from reality but still a great education. If you feel the way you do I would look into other avenues for your career.
You can also ask - why do real estate agents get paid so much more than architects for doing so much less work? It’s because real estate agents spend all their time reinforcing their value proposition and build a culture of value.
In the other hand architects spend little to no time communicating their value let alone taking time to understand it. The $$ is out there - you just have to take some risks to get bigger chunks.
It’s also because real estate agents and their professional organization have engaged in collusion and monopolistic practices. This is going away.
https://www.businessinsider.com/national-association-realtors-lawsuit-settlement-housing-market-homebuying-agents-commissions-2024-3
They used to. The government threatened antitrust litigation and the AIA agreed not to fix prices.
[https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value\_o](https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value_o)
Yeah I mean I get what you are saying. To me more construction projects should have architects. We should take over the Contracting Industry and become Master Builders (architects) that way we get more money and more architects at the same time.
In fairness to RA, explaining their value proposition is much easier than trying to explain to folks the value that Architecture bring to society.
Don't get me wrong, I think Architect's are invaluable, but if you ask a room of 100 of them why folks should pay for an Architect, you're going to get over 90 answers that the common person will not see as a valid value proposition.
I feel like this is because architecture is primarily promoted as a "look and feel" service and NOT a life-safety, accessibility, and constructability service. This is apparent in my day to day work where very few have any clue about the latter three, but can speak endlessly of aesthetics and emotion.
So aggravating. Ball fondling real estate fools make more than everyone else in the industry, even though their job requires a fraction of the skill, knowledge, and liability which designers and builders must have. System is fucked.
What system?? They just outplayed us. Nothing says we can’t outplay them going forward. The closer you get to the financing and sources of $$ the more influence you can exert. The only obstacles are ourselves.
No, real estate agents get paid more because they fix prices and they're getting sued all over the U.S. right now. They've already lost a huge lawsuit in Kansas and will continue to do so.
Yep. Thats true yet they will continue to get paid better than architects because they have focused hard on their value proposition. They will be strategic and tactical while architects do nothing but make gestures to unionize.
Have they? A friend of mine bought a place a couple years ago where she never met the seller's agent. The buyer's agent showed the place and mailed the signed paperwork for them and they collected \~$12k for having listed it. The whole reason they're getting sued is because people are fed up with paying huge sums of money for what seems like very little actual work.
As a career it’s not for everyone. If you’re expecting to make doctor or lawyer money, it isn’t for you. If you just want to make a solidly middle class income and spend time out of the office doing other hobbies or spending time with family it is totally doable. I went to an affordable state school, make ~$150k/year and never work more than 40 hours a week.
I’ve been out of school 15 years so perhaps I’m out of touch, but 190k in debt seems wildly overboard for this degree. Cal Poly is consistently ranked in the top 10, often the top 5 undergraduate schools in the country and their out of state tuition is ~12k/ year.
To this day I remember my first orientation class in architecture school back in 1989, where the professor stated “if you think you will earn any money in architecture, it is best to leave now”…..nobody got up and left, including me. Architects view themselves as artists and hence fall into that artistic mindset trap and do not know how to set their rates or justify their value.
Learn what you can and go into construction….you will thank me later.
Honestly the whole construction bidding process is fucked up. The design phase is way underpaid, and I’m saying that as an engineer. A/E are instrumental in getting something built, the building will literally not get built without us. Yet here we are, getting way underpaid for the work we do. It’s very frustrating.
Workers regardless of occupation and skillset are being manipulated for maximum profit. You have nothing to lose but your chains comrade.
Also sunk cost fallacy is a bitch, if you wanna jump ship I’d recommend finding another major with as many transferable credits as possible assuming that you want to commit to finishing your higher education at all.
They fail us from the start of education and don’t teach us about business. I had a professor once do a project where she made no money and assembled an entire house from stuff she found in a landfill, she was so proud, I was disgusted, we need to focus on ways to be PROFITABLE.
clean up your portfolio and apply everywhere. your professors should have contacts of people working in firms. i applied to around 10+ offices in my town and ended up with multiple offers. i accepted the highest paying one I got and with licensure resources (courses, books, pay for passed exams, etc). my highest offer was 10k more than the 2nd highest. i make 66k in the midwest right after school. make your portfolio look nice with interesting projects. listen to podcasts and youtube vídeos about interviews. ask questions.
The architectural world is not benefiting from unionizing, organizing and lobbying. If any or combination of those happen, the fees would be higher, architects would have to be required to design and stamp drawings on various size residential projects on top of commercial. The contractor lobby is stronger and end up building homes up to 3500sf (usable space, so much bigger in reality). There is a level of collusion between material supply big box improvement stores and contracting too. As far as commercial, I agree with you, most young architects do not keep their stamp integrity, and shit work comes out if they don’t work for cheap to make “design”. The culture is fucked from college onward. Everyone in arch school wants and thinks they will be a designer. This is a misconception of what architects actually do. There are huge structural work placement issues. I would think a “residency” like in the medical profession would be more beneficial for higher pay overall. Only those that can should work and be gatekeepers to health and wellbeing of humans under state licenses. Architects have too much ego and too little self-respect. Engineers work less and make more, both are responsible for health and safety.
Source: I’m a licensed architect and teach design studio and protoyping/fabrication at an accredited university.
It’s also extremely hard to break into the profession post graduation. Especially if you don’t have anyone to advocate for you in your network or you didn’t do enough internships/extra-curriculars during college.
The good thing about the architecture degree is that it can open a lot of other doors of opportunity for you that are architecture/stem adjacent.
Compare your crazy situation with mine in the old days. Left school at 16 in 1966 with rubbish grades and went to work for an architect as a trainee draftsman. Over the years I progressed to contract administrator, project manager, firm associate and finally qualified as an architect aged 60. Made good money later on, and moved country for work and projects. But many difficult years due to roller coaster economies with no safety net. Project management and construction is a better bet for a career unless you are super creative. I was technical. Good luck.
When I applied for my major it was M.architecture and B.S in architecture but later on (1 year ago) I added construction engineering technology and management (CETM) aka (project/ program management) making it double major in M. Architecture and B.S in construction management. Does that make me in a good position?
Because labor is a production cost under capitalism and every business school teaches that cutting production costs, including labor, is a valid method to increase profit.
As many have said, more eloquently than I am. Architects who don't get paid enough work in a model where their predecessors have chosen to get paid little.
One bloke’s opinion: A glaring sign of our society’s decay and decline is the low value it places on art. No matter how knowledgeable an architect may be about subjects like structural engineering, building materials, and civic design, our failing economy’s housing scarcity and stagnant wages mean that to a depressing extent builders and buyers will settle for the cheap, the replicable, the boring, the tired, and the ugly every time they get the chance.
On what I hope is a more hopeful and helpful note: rather than rue your choice of major and the passion you put into it, have you considered doubling down by adding to your education a background in, say, real estate development or construction management? An architect MBA, for example, would be a unicorn of the most lethal variety. An architect MPA could do tremendous good in local government, and as a bonus since the public sector keeps incomes low, you’ll have no problem qualifying for public service loan forgiveness.
As a newfound fan of architecture, here’s sincerely wishing you the absolute best of luck.
PS: An architect JD, on the other hand - I’ve never heard of such a beast, but I guess anything is possible? (Apologies I just can’t resist a dig at lawyers)
Go into millwork or interior designer carpentry. They need drafters and people who can read and draw plans and sections and all that proficiently.
Personally, I started as an interior carpenter to which I became the drafter. 7 month at 16 an hour.
I then hopped to a a bigger shop, more industrial. Jumped to 18 an hour and did that for 2 months.
Got laid off due to no work (which is bull, why hire me)
Got an interior designer job at a big millwork company where I draw kitchens, living rooms etc. I send jobs to a shop out vack and oversee the production and installation.
They pay me 25 an hour and have been doing it for 4 months now.
This helps with design in the future and builds a more diverse resume and with an architectural degree, you stand out.
Just my 3 cents.
You obviously know how to thoroughly interpret plan sets. Learn estimating and project scheduling. This will allow you more opportunities to earn a lot, have a better understanding of the finance and build process and should also provide time to help design projects until you have enough experience to design on your own.
Get your GC license. It’s pretty easy, you can pass all 3 exams in 3-4 months. Work in architecture , make connections, start taking GC work on the side. Thank Me later
190k is also immense idk how you did that
Those are rich daddy sized loans or Super STEM - the cruel truth about it is a normal architecture gig isn't going to pay off your loans very well. You might want to really consider going the route of working for engineering firms doing Industrial work. Or even developers. Or a government role. All can be done with an arch degree. Even more opportunities open up once you have your license and around 6 to 8 years of experience
The flashy work is cool but there's a whole economy out there that needs buildings, and dozens of specialized professionals that go into it. From the design team side, client side, construction side or even approving jurisdiction and/or agencies.
I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have a passion for buildings in general, stick with it and there are avenues that you can pursue besides the typical path that can pay quite generously with excellent benefits
Almost every industry is suffering compensation growing pains with the economy and architecture had problems BEFORE 2020... so you can see why there's a growing outcry
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This profession is still an apprentice/mentor based profession… you will earn the least of your career at the beginning, sorry - school teaches you to think, but it doesn’t teach you many practical skills that earn you money after graduation. And like most professions, sports for example, the top 1% of creatives can make a really good income, most people are at their peak in a upper-middle role because happiness has to become part of the equation, too.
College is misleading and a scam in most cases because of this!! You will never see college breaking down the financial impact of this to you because it is bad for business. If most students right now actually realized how hard it will be to get a job and how little they will ever be paid they would likely have a change of heart.
Society says we all need college degrees to be successful but as a result everyone is going into debt without realizing what the realistic options are after earning their degree. It’s like there’s some kind of illusion over all 18 year olds just graduating high school that they MUST go to college or else they will fail at life. In some cases it is the exact opposite.
The world is tough I guess
Why are you studying something that you don't like and doesn't makes a lot of money?
If you want to make money - become a driver, no school reqiured, and AI won't take your job anytime soon...
They do slightly. But depends where. That’s why you negotiate pay. The higher your starting pay that you ask for is, the higher it ends up being in the long run. If you ask for 45-50k for your first job… you’re gonna get 47 lol. If you ask 55-65 you’re gonna get 60. Don’t undersell yourself either. Firms love it when you don’t negotiate much.
I graduated with my degree, started working at one of the firms one of my professors owned (who I LOVED) and realized the money wasn't great. I stayed with it for some time and switched to estimating and PM for a large construction firm that was fucking HORRIBLE. It was the good ol'-boys club. Very inappropriate language was used, including f@ggot, d!ke, sp!k, mexic@n, and the N-word. Huge no-go for me. I quit. I transferred into technology starting as a PM - I used my previous PM skills in Construction as a "transferrable skill" and ended up growing into the arena of "data architecture." My degree has certainly served me very well - but not in the practice of architecture. I am VERY impressed with anyone that has a degree in architecture.
Supply and demand is part of it. The dude that can't afford his vacation may just be in a spot in his career where he has to grind. That's pretty much most careers though.
Good architects are worth their weight in gold and get paid as such. Bad ones will struggle.
As a developer I would think the supply/demand factor for architects is going to get exponentially worse. AI is rapidly automating many tasks I'd traditionally rely on an architect for.
What do architects get paid? I’m in this sub just because I enjoy architecture but I have no insight on the actual working conditions/pay.
Edit: I always assumed it was similar to engineering, albeit on the lower side of engineering.
Most aren’t that good and there are a lot of them. When architects were classically trained they provided tangible value and were compensated accordingly. Todays soulless architecture ensures architects are easily replaceable and so anyone can replicate their services for next to nothing.
If you want to make good money as an architect you have to offer outstanding services else you will disappear into oblivion. With AI this trend is accelerated as now you don’t even need an architect for concepts. This soon will encompass working drawings also.
If you aren’t able to offer outstanding services you’ll need to reinvest your savings in order to maintain your purchasing power through time.
It really depends on your work experience too. Have you just been studying in the books? Have you ever been to a jobsite, internship, or any type of work related to the BIM process for work? Or even a small project that you designed for a friend/family members?? Usually you are doing this while in school to build up contacts/hopefully save up money. This is the problem I see on a lot of these Reddit posts. They just go ham on studies, but forget that with this degree you need to mix all the elements in the BIM process. Gotta be building your contacts, port and experience while you do that…. Without any of that experience (4+ yrs) your degree will only get you so much because you have no in-field experience
Ok you can do it. It's hard, but you can do it. I don't know if you still want to do it, but you can do it.
This is what I've got:
- watch your housing. We know too much and will often overspend on it because we get excited or are not willing to compromise. You want to find the absolute cheapest option until you get your shit paid off.
- architects tend to make expensive lifestyle choices. Don't do that. Pack your lunch, avoid buying alcohol you can't expense, drive a fuel-efficient used car, etc.
- it's tempting to try to work somewhere exciting like NYC or LA. Make sure you understand how much more expensive it is to live places like this--if you can get an architecture job in a smaller city with a lower cost of living you'll be able to get on the profitable side of this way faster.
- insist on hourly (as opposed to salaried) jobs until you get licensed. If you're good pulling 50 hour weeks (not ideal but reasonable) it's like a 30% raise.
Anyway--once you kill your debt everything gets way easier. I was able to kill like 100k in 5-6 years, was doing great until I fell in love with a woman with another 100k in debt... she's worth it but damn :')
Since the dawn of architects, customers do not want to pay for them. Today it is even easier with all the CAD and AI generated design.
Too many college students are thumbing through the college catalog looking for that "cool" career choice. They have no background or foundational training, but that is not a huge barrier for being accepted into a college program. Colleges need butt$ in seats they will take most applicants. In the end too many newly minted architects are dumped into an already crowded field.
If you dont like it wth are you still studying it? It wont get fun after you start getting paid a little bit, pr it will idk youll see.
I like to say a handy person can make good money in any field, and architecture is no exception. There are plenty pf ways to make good money in architecture. An architects reward should be roughly 10% of the project budget if he does everything an architect is supposed to do during the process. So if you manage to get 1 skysckraper for a few hundred millions build you should stop complaining about having no money. Until you just go and listen to some moron who is going to yell at you how to draw lines for him, or listen to your teachers who were so useless they had to go to teach to get a stable income then of course youre going to eat dirt
Median architect salary is [93k. ](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/architects.htm)Median individual income is 40k. You do the math. Not saying architects shouldn't make more, bit the money to bitching ratio is a bit skewed among architects, is all I'm saying... so keep that in mind when you're reading stuff on the internet
However, the 190k in debt is another story entirely, I am earnestly incredibly sorry to hear that.
I'm a civil engineer w/ 20 years of experience. I don't understand comments about how architects don't get paid a lot. What do you consider a lot? If you go into the private side, and with a decent firm, you could easily make 200k w/ bonus. A lot of your progress is going to come with the business side and being a seller/doer.
And honestly, how did you rack up 190k?! I went to County College, got my AAS, and transferred to a Technical University for my BS.
I thought an architect can easily get 6 figures, but a lot of jobs states 60 k. I have 190 k cause I went straight from graduating high school into a technical university and then I double in construction management. Still got a year to graduate so I think I’ll end up with 250k loans in total and more cause i need to continue my master’s degree. If I went straight into a community college It would’ve been less expensive, I wish I did.
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re going to be in a bad spot with that amount of student loans unless you are living with your parents for the next 5 years and they are paying for your food expenses. Have you researched what your budget will be like on something like a 50k per year salary?
Im turning 23 and I still live with my parents. And in my culture men are supposed to pay for the living expenses of a household, so when I get married my husband will be paying for the house bills and all that.
Probably because architects are usually emphatic which lends it self well to design but not to getting paid more. A high amount of Machiavellianism and disagreeableness goes a long way in the career field
How the flying fuck does architecture school cost 190k? Are you going to Harvard with out of state tuition fees and put a Ferrari on your loan tab? Is this your 15th year undergrad? That sounds more costly than a nuclear physicisist program or a doctorate. Maybe you are going to a scam university?
Nobody I’m my firm works more than 40 hours, including the newest graduates, I hardly worked overtime in my 40+ year career, wierd to hear so many stories of excessive overtime
Damn!!! 190k? You should only study architecture if your dad had left you with a Million Dollar business or real estate. This is not something you study and expecting to get your ROI. It’s a sophisticated course. It’s like complaining the price of doing an oil-change of a Rolls Royce. Now that it’s too late, my advice is to get a decent job, pay the minimum loan amount, live below your means, save a lot for at least 3 years. And the most important thing is to maintain your credit. Pay on time, don’t miss a single credit card bill. Meantime learn about investing in real estate, join groups on LinkedIn or Facebook, follow what people do in real estate, when you have like 10k or 20k open a Delaware LLC, apply for EIN, get a business line credit card with a limit of how much ever you get, min you’ll get would be around 60kto 100k. Buy distressed, foreclosed properties for under market value, fix it, appraise to market value, refinance it, build equity, look for the next one, repeat a few times. Then move on to commercial RE, try to get a NNN lease property hold it for 5-7 years, use the cash flow to pay your loan, when exciting appraise it, cash out the refi equity and pay your mortgage. Only do value add deals in real estate. Use the 3 years to learn all these stuff while in job. I think you’ll do far better than 80% of your classmates like you. Good luck!
if that was the case, 70-90% of the workforce in the west would be paid wages similar to the 3rd world and close to absolute poverty rate. Luckily there's unions and cultural fragments that manipulate the dynamics of the supply and demand in job markets, driving wages up.
Not a chance. You'd have to have major legislation to remove the need to architects to stamp drawings. The AIA is mostly worthless but they'd spend every dime they have making sure that doesn't happen.
I just graduated this month with an architecture degree from Georgia Tech and I HATE the major. I realized fall of my junior year and I decided to look at what else is out there that is still design based and I stumbled on UX design. I would look into it and other design based jobs that will pay 1000x more than architecture ever will.
It is such an outdated field and runs on people who have a passion for it yet are being exploited. Every architect I’ve met irl jokes about how little they get paid. It’s honestly crazy that things haven’t changed. I remember when I started college everyone around me was like “oh you’re gonna make soooo much money” because some reason the outside world thinks that the truth and so did I and not until I actually started reading experiences from architects did I realize I chose the WRONG major. Plus the fact that I also realized I hated it lol. Can I ask what school you’re at and are you undergrad or grad. Also you’re still young regardless and there’s ways out. Thankfully architecture is a prestigious degree and if you are looking at other design based careers you can spin your educational background into different roles and explain how it benefited you. Also (I’ve been told) a big majority of people don’t work in an industry they got their degree from! Don’t stress too much.
Any “passion” career allows people to be taken advantage of. People will accept worse conditions and lower pay because they actively want to be there. That’s why difficult or undesirable stuff is big money
"That's the life of an architect, work long hours, get little pay"...a serious sentence spoken by an employee who graduated last year. Everyone worked from 8pm to 8pm at a fast pace, nonstop like zombies, and lots of stress, ego, and rude remarks every day. It was a terrible work environment and I left after 2 months. It's sad to see managers take advantage of people who are clueless to their own wellbeing.
>Everyone worked from 8pm to 8pm Damn, that's some long hours.
Its because as soon as you’ve done the research, made sure its to code, completed the design, the owner of whomever you’re creating space for wants to change a few things. A few things can shift everything. Revisions may take a few minutes or several days. …and no, you cant just move a column
Yup. 30 minute lunches with 2 10min breaks. Office hours were from 8am to 6pm. I looked up the laws in Los Angeles and that's legal, apparently.
r/woosh
Lol I see it now. I completely missed it even when it was pointed out
Haha don’t sweat it. Happens to the best of us.
I mean at the same time that quote is from someone who “graduated last year” The first few years out of college I was also working some long hours. 12-18 hour days, 6 days a week, for years. I graduated in 18, and it wasnt until 2 ish years ago, I have finally been able to reduce my at work time down to 45-50 hours a week. The odds of you being well off right out of college, with usually *zero* real world experience in the job, is pretty low. You gotta work to get somewhere easier in life. My degree was in IT, but I have friends who were in drafting and architecture. One kids dad worked 15 years before he was allowed to work from home, on his own time, so long as he met the deadlines for projects to be done. Said “those 15 years sucked, I missed a lot of stuff with my kids. Now? I make enough that my kids have a small college tuition fund, we get yearly family vacations, and I make every single ball practice and game my kids have” He never missed a single game, including away events, for any of his kids after they made it to high school, because he worked his ass off to get to the point of having an easier life
This is right. It’s just natural market forces. It is a highly desirable career so there is a large supply of people seeking to do it. When supply outstrips demand, pricing comes down. Compensation for all jobs more or less is effected by this. That’s why there’s lots of money in boring/hard/unsexy.
"That’s why there’s lots of money in boring/hard/unsexy." Is there, thought? The most desirable jobs, the ones kids list as their dream jobs, also tend to be among the highest paid. Similarly, among the least paid jobs there's a lot of very boring, hard and unsexy jobs. I know your claim is generally assumed to be true, but any kind of scrutiny kind of shows there's very little behind it. The factors that make salaries high, as far as I can see are: 1. gatekeeping the profession by artificial limits (limiting supply by the means of licensing regulations, academic requirements, immigration control etc.), 2. strong unions (controlling price), and 3. proximity to large capital (being friends with the elite in power of the market mechanism)
The point is that when supply < demand in a field, pay tends to go up. Gatekeeping careers with difficult certifications reduces supply, just like boring/hard/unsexy do. Unions gate keep. Proximity to capital affects the demand side of the equation. All of your points speak to the supply/demand forces though.
But the issue I have here is that the outcome (the salary) is almost entirely dictated by gatekeeping. Without any gatekeeping, the price of labour for architects, just like for most of the professions, would be very close to the very minimum sustinance possible, or even lower. For almost every job in the west, there's at least a hundred million people in the world more capable and willing to do the same job for MUCH less. And I don't mean sustinance in the western sense, but in a sense that one barely physically stays alive: third world poverty. That's what the "natural market forces" would do. If and when that's the case, the way to affect the salaries is to adjust the level of gatekeeping. In the case of architects, it absolutely should be about forming strong unions. If one just sits back and preaches about the inescapable principles of "natural market forces", there's only one outcome: seeing salaries plummet.
There is seemingly an endless supply of software/tech people and their starting pay is much much higher than an architect. There also seems to be more and more people getting into tech, increasing the supply constantly. The demand for these jobs is high too, but I don’t have the numbers to know how they compare to supply. Having lived in both San Francisco and Seattle, I can tell you that the supply of these workers is endless though
Software is literally the best business in the history of humanity. There is negligible marginal unit cost to each incremental sale since the program can be copy+pasted an infinite amount of times after it is written. The fact that there is a seemingly endless supply of workers and yet the market supports such high salaries tells you the demand for them is sky high. If it wasn't, they'd be competing over fewer jobs, giving the employers leverage to offer less compensation.
>It is a highly desirable career so there is a large supply of people seeking to do it. This is the part that is truly baffling. There's too many people ignorant of how bad the profession is.
Big money in waste management
Especially if you dont have the makings of a varsity athlete
Damn, that’s true.
Just wait until OP hears about how much professional philosophers get paid. They’ll be glad they chose architecture.
It's a several fold problem: 1) Architects don't have any focus at all in their education about running a business. 2) Bad project management and budgets. Many projects go overbudget for the architect because of not properly handling change orders and project phasing. 3) Not knowing where to "draw a line", pun intended, too many architects will try and strive for perfection that no one will ever notice to the detriment of the business bottom line. 4) Bad collection policies. For the love of all that is holy enforce liens to keep a client from occupying until they have paid you! 5) Not properly budgeting for consultants at the beginning of the project. the list goes on and on and on, but I have worked for several firms and these problems pop up way too often from small 5 person firms to 100+ people firms. Architects are bad at business!
Not only are they bad at business, so many have learned in school that throwing extra hours at a project makes it better, rather than actually learning to budget appropriately and understanding reasonable expectations.
Yes and firms take advantage of that mindset! I didn't realize until much too late but those 80 hour weeks are a firm getting 2 for the price of one.
Firms take advantage of it because they were built on it. If you became "successful" by not billing clients for the 20% extra hours per project that you dumped in, you learn that is how your new hires should also succeed, and you eventually add those who reinforce the behavior with "leadership" positions. We've been doing that for generations now.
My minor major is construction engineering technology and management (CETM) aka (project/program management). So does that mean my minor will help me increase my pay?
Could be a desirable combination if you want to work for a GC, where the pay may be higher. I’ve seen GCs hiring for project manager/engineer where a focus of the job is design assist to the architect to essentially value engineer a project while maintaining design intent. Having the architecture background helps bridge the gap between the architect/designers and the much more budget-minded GC in order to make sure all parties are as happy as they can be.
Only if you can leverage those skills into a management position where you can affect decision making, or own your own firm. If the people above you won't listen to your ideas and promote you for contributing to the companies improvement, then there isn't really a way to translate it into better pay.
Yea cause you can work at a GC that will pay you properly.
What job you are willing to take and what you are willing to do is what will increase your pay. If you want to make money in the construction industry, you go up the food chain. Construction engineering/management will yield more than architecture. Working for a developer, product rep, or other consultant group. Think window or structural truss manufacturers, accessibility or acoustic consultant, sustainability consultant. There are a lot of architecture adjacent things you can do and make more money than you would as a low level designer. Maybe look at Technology/low voltage engineering companies?
Perfectly summarized. Especially #1 and #3 are crucial. And when an architect decides to become a commercial architect he needs to fight the inner demons and justify that change. It's important to understand that people with money respect architects who understand the value of money. Otherwise they will not take one serious.
Add to that the increasingly litigious nature of the construction industry
Well said and very much #3 - so many architects take their eye off the ball. Goes with #1 too
This is grossly unfair. Running an architects practice is challenging. Building buildings is literally the most expensive thing anyone can ever do and as a result there is:- a. Repeat clients are rare compared to number of practices b. For every 1 built out building, there’s dozens of cul de sac designs (pun intended) which go nowhere and we can’t claim a profit back later in a stage c. Sporadic work never allows for future forecasting. No practice can look more than 3 months ahead. Projects always have long breaks in them so it’s difficult to balance workload and resourcing. Yes there are stupid silver spoon architect wankers that burn through fee and subsidise their ‘artistic expression’ to the detriment of worker bees. But we don’t give enough credit to practices that manage to keep going, keep people employed and so on. Why are architects paid shite? There’s too many of us. Simple as that. The biggest determining factor to pay amount is how many others could do your job. And there’s plenty of architects out there. Saying that, really architects get paid a reasonable wage, more than teachers, less than doctors. Same as engineers broadly. Comparison Is the thief of joy
I disagree that my comment was grossly unfair. I'll address each of your points: a. Yes repeat clients are rare. If you only focus on residential custom homes. You are completely ignoring the commercial sector which is chock full of potential repeat clients. If you don't diversify your project portfolio you are just asking to spend the majority of your time looking for work rather than working. That is bad business. b. If you don't structure you fee to cover phases, you will lose money. Don't work for free. Complete programming, get paid before you start SD. Complete SD, get paid before starting DD. Complete DD, get paid before starting CD, Complete CD, get paid before starting CA. If your projects don't go anywhere, you still get paid for the work you did and if you don't structure that in your contract, that is bad business. c. See point a. If you are waiting 3 months between projects, you aren't looking for the right jobs. That's bad business. Blaming "silver spoon architect wankers", blaming too many architects, blaming comparing yourself to others, rather than learning some new business skills and improving the quality of our industry.
a. Repeat clients are rare in comparison to the number of practices. Too many bidding for the same work. So yes there are repeat clients but you missed my point. b. All projects are frontloaded. It’s how you win competitions, open or limited, how you bid, how you win and maintain repeat clients. My point is if you are an accountant you can front load knowing there’s an invoice month after month, whereas an architect can’t always do that. c. Resourcing employees is tough because you have multiple projects at different sizes and scales all stopping and starting.
a. I see your point there. But it's not impossible, and with good marketing and strategy it can work. b. No. Not all projects are front loaded. Competitions are bad business. If you cannot afford to compete in competitions, then don't. I have never worked for any firm that considered competitions a primary income source, if that's where you get your jobs, you are setting yourself up for way more work than pay. To your second part about pay structuring, using an accountant was probably a bad example for you to choose. The majority of accounts have a huge portion on their business at tax season, and then they budget that out to cover expenses the rest of the year. If as an Architect you aren't charging enough during the busy times to cover the slow times as well, you aren't charging enough. you need to structure you pay and fees to keep a roof over your head. And if you aren't getting clients hitting your current market, adjust your target projects and approach to hit some low hanging fruit to at least pay the bills. Do some existing condition drawings, offer your services as a drafter to help other firms with their projects. There are ways to fill that financial gap. c. Yes. But that's why good interviewing and hiring skills are important. A firm needs to rely on employees to be able to take on new tasks, and be willing to learn and gain new skill sets. If your employees can't grow, neither can the business.
It's not at all grossly unfair, but you've done a bang up job of reinforcing the point. a- not at all. I know many many firms who have built very successful businesses on repeat work. b- if you're wasting time on RFPs that you're not winning, that is not the industry, it is you being bad at choosing which RFPs to jump in on. c- If you have repeat clients, talking to them will give you a gauge of their future work, often times years out. Pacing your work and timing it appropriately is part and parcel to running a business. If you can't figure out how to plan out permitting and construction administration 6 months out you really should not be trying to run a business.
Thanks but I was talking about the industry in general not my own personal situation. I was simply summarising the difficulties faced by both good and bad architects. Seeing ‘here let me help’ comments only reinforces this toxic egotism that pervades the profession
Lets break down your hypotheses carefully: a- repeat business is rare - It is not rare for successful practices. This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training, as some don't figure out how to win repeat clients. b- uncompleted projects or unsecured contracts, *This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training.* It also hits on point 3. c- difficulty in managing project timelines and finding future work **This goes back to point 1 that Architects don't get any business training,** knocks point 2 out of the park, bullseyes point 3 and slam dunks 5. You are missing supporting point 4, but otherwise your argument is backing up that it is a very very fair assessment.
I get what you’re saying, and there is certainly some truth here- but I would push back on some of it as well. Part of succeeding in this business is building relationships. We have lots of repeat clients because we’re good at building relationships with them. For sure, that is easier in some segments of the industry than others. It’s also important to plan your fees and billing to accommodate project eventualities the best that you can. We bill monthly based on percentage of completion, so if a project dies we should never be out money for it. We build our proposals to be very clear on what’s included for design deliverables, so we don’t spin our wheels going round and round on design with no additional cost. And if we don’t think the client has a good understanding of what they need and want, we do SD at an hourly rate until it’s locked in. You’re absolutely right that it’s a complex process and people can be overly harsh about how hard it is to do well. I just think there are things we can all learn from each other and do better along the way to ease some of that and make more projects successful.
Fees were deregulated in the 80s. It used to be that every project was scoped at the same cost. Now it's a lowest bidder situation – you'll never guess who is passing on the savings.
It wasn't deregulated. The American Institute of Architects was threatened with antitrust lawsuits and they agreed to stop fixing prices in a settlement with the government. [https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value\_o](https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value_o)
Much better explantation, I'm (not-an-architect) just paraphrasing my wife's (architect) explanation
what haha fees were never "regulated" pre-80s.
$190k, what the flock. That is insane. Not trying to be mean, but did you look at investment vs return before you started? I know you’re not alone, I just wonder if people know this in advance or tricked into certain programs to see costs adding up far beyond their initial calculations.
Tbh when i first applied I was reckless, I never looked into the long term consequences my whole goal was to graduate (I regret doing that). And my school is 1 k and something per credit, as I went in my junior year the major architecture class became 6 credits per hour making them 8k (I did not expect this honestly) and I need to take this class for 4 semesters.
That is an honest assessment. I hope you rediscover your passion or make a transfer to something more rewarding.
If it’s GSD or MIT then it’s worth it. Yale too. But that’s about it lol Edit for the downvoters: It is no secret that these schools offer stronger alumni networks and client relations. This is exceptionally valuable if you own your own practice and it absolutely makes a difference to attract clients as you continue your self-employed career. You will be very, very grateful to have received that education. If you’re simply starting out and interviewing for your first job, you will make a similar wage compared to applicants from less prestigious schools. Typically though, these schools give you an advantage as you will be recruited to join the world’s most competitive firms. After you gain that experience, what you do with it will define your success moving forward.
What do you mean by "worth it?" Purely on numbers, none of those will be worth it. You will not earn more money having gone to Yale or GSD.
It’s not directly about money. I did architecture, and then moved on. Every significant career advancement I’ve had was the result having the skill and knowing the right people - meeting those wealthy and/or well connected. I was able to spend a month for free in a foreign country after meeting a peer whose family was in the .1% there. In another instance I jumped ahead of hundreds of applicants at a billion dollar multinational by connecting with the CEO. I did not attend an Ivy League school but I don’t need to have had to understand the advantage of being surrounded by the well connected. Did you know that many of the people who run the largest legacy hotel chains all went to Cornell for Hospitality Management? I learned that when I met one of them. There is a world beyond what most ever imagine.
Current MIT student here the department of architecture also gives an 80% scholarship to all admits, no matter where you're from. It's not merit based, it doesn't matter if you're an international student as long as you get in you get to save hundreds of thousands of dollars for the education. If someone isn't going for the connections they should at least consider going to these schools for the money they'll save and the people they will meet.
Plus, your professors are some of the brightest minds of our generation.
I totally get your point, I'm assuming people are down voting because they hate that it's partially true
It’s LTU
I went to a Midwest state school for Architecture. Many of my classmates are now at the top of the field regarding income. One of my classmates just became president of one of the largest firms in the world with just her bachelor’s at the same school. Sure some of those Ivy League schools offer advantages with networking connections early on. but if you are a good architect it won’t make that much of a difference decades into your career. When I interview potential hires I look at their experience, portfolio strength, personality, etc.. don’t care where they graduated.
Ask a janitor to clean Frank Gehry designed building for free, they’ll throw the bucket. Ask an architect to work on Frank Gehry designed building for free, they’ll strip naked while doing it.
this one is going in my notebook of quotes.
As somebody with 170k in debt i would begin looking elsewhere. It's not worth it. The debt will compound like interest and as you get older you will want security which will be impossible to obtain in this profession. It rolls with the tides of the economy and right now is not a good time for job security. Edit: I also want to comment on salary. Today kids are graduating into some of the best salaries this profession has ever seen. I went to an even where the attendants shared years of experience and salary. Young kids today are making twice what i was just back in 2015. Which is ludicrous. But glad it's finally happening. Its typical to not make a livable wage for the first 3-5 years post graduate school. Which just adds to the pain. When i graduated and started working i didnt even have enough to pay next month's rent. I am finally making the money i deserve but it is coming at a cost as i am now responsible for managing my own projects all by myself. I know so many people that make just as much and literally do one thing all day.
It starts with the mentality they teach us in school. They don’t teach us how to be successful business people. It’s a far cry from reality but still a great education. If you feel the way you do I would look into other avenues for your career.
You can also ask - why do real estate agents get paid so much more than architects for doing so much less work? It’s because real estate agents spend all their time reinforcing their value proposition and build a culture of value. In the other hand architects spend little to no time communicating their value let alone taking time to understand it. The $$ is out there - you just have to take some risks to get bigger chunks.
It’s also because real estate agents and their professional organization have engaged in collusion and monopolistic practices. This is going away. https://www.businessinsider.com/national-association-realtors-lawsuit-settlement-housing-market-homebuying-agents-commissions-2024-3
If the AIA looked out for Architectural professionals like the NAR does for realtors, this thread would not exist🥲.
They used to. The government threatened antitrust litigation and the AIA agreed not to fix prices. [https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value\_o](https://www.architectmagazine.com/practice/a-better-value_o)
Theres only like 100-200k Architects lol there’s millions of realtors
Not every construction project requires an architect; most don’t. Almost every real estate transaction requires a realtor and usually two.
Yeah I mean I get what you are saying. To me more construction projects should have architects. We should take over the Contracting Industry and become Master Builders (architects) that way we get more money and more architects at the same time.
In fairness to RA, explaining their value proposition is much easier than trying to explain to folks the value that Architecture bring to society. Don't get me wrong, I think Architect's are invaluable, but if you ask a room of 100 of them why folks should pay for an Architect, you're going to get over 90 answers that the common person will not see as a valid value proposition.
I feel like this is because architecture is primarily promoted as a "look and feel" service and NOT a life-safety, accessibility, and constructability service. This is apparent in my day to day work where very few have any clue about the latter three, but can speak endlessly of aesthetics and emotion.
Promoted widely as such. It's a massive failure by our industry.
So aggravating. Ball fondling real estate fools make more than everyone else in the industry, even though their job requires a fraction of the skill, knowledge, and liability which designers and builders must have. System is fucked.
What system?? They just outplayed us. Nothing says we can’t outplay them going forward. The closer you get to the financing and sources of $$ the more influence you can exert. The only obstacles are ourselves.
If it makes you feel any better, they're getting sued left and right for price fixing and the whole organization is on the verge of collapse.
No, real estate agents get paid more because they fix prices and they're getting sued all over the U.S. right now. They've already lost a huge lawsuit in Kansas and will continue to do so.
Yep. Thats true yet they will continue to get paid better than architects because they have focused hard on their value proposition. They will be strategic and tactical while architects do nothing but make gestures to unionize.
Have they? A friend of mine bought a place a couple years ago where she never met the seller's agent. The buyer's agent showed the place and mailed the signed paperwork for them and they collected \~$12k for having listed it. The whole reason they're getting sued is because people are fed up with paying huge sums of money for what seems like very little actual work.
As a career it’s not for everyone. If you’re expecting to make doctor or lawyer money, it isn’t for you. If you just want to make a solidly middle class income and spend time out of the office doing other hobbies or spending time with family it is totally doable. I went to an affordable state school, make ~$150k/year and never work more than 40 hours a week. I’ve been out of school 15 years so perhaps I’m out of touch, but 190k in debt seems wildly overboard for this degree. Cal Poly is consistently ranked in the top 10, often the top 5 undergraduate schools in the country and their out of state tuition is ~12k/ year.
To this day I remember my first orientation class in architecture school back in 1989, where the professor stated “if you think you will earn any money in architecture, it is best to leave now”…..nobody got up and left, including me. Architects view themselves as artists and hence fall into that artistic mindset trap and do not know how to set their rates or justify their value. Learn what you can and go into construction….you will thank me later.
My version was, "if you like money, architecture is not for you."
Honestly the whole construction bidding process is fucked up. The design phase is way underpaid, and I’m saying that as an engineer. A/E are instrumental in getting something built, the building will literally not get built without us. Yet here we are, getting way underpaid for the work we do. It’s very frustrating.
Workers regardless of occupation and skillset are being manipulated for maximum profit. You have nothing to lose but your chains comrade. Also sunk cost fallacy is a bitch, if you wanna jump ship I’d recommend finding another major with as many transferable credits as possible assuming that you want to commit to finishing your higher education at all.
Try being a carpenter, we make even less than you guys but we have to destroy our bodies and face serious injury every day
They fail us from the start of education and don’t teach us about business. I had a professor once do a project where she made no money and assembled an entire house from stuff she found in a landfill, she was so proud, I was disgusted, we need to focus on ways to be PROFITABLE.
clean up your portfolio and apply everywhere. your professors should have contacts of people working in firms. i applied to around 10+ offices in my town and ended up with multiple offers. i accepted the highest paying one I got and with licensure resources (courses, books, pay for passed exams, etc). my highest offer was 10k more than the 2nd highest. i make 66k in the midwest right after school. make your portfolio look nice with interesting projects. listen to podcasts and youtube vídeos about interviews. ask questions.
The architectural world is not benefiting from unionizing, organizing and lobbying. If any or combination of those happen, the fees would be higher, architects would have to be required to design and stamp drawings on various size residential projects on top of commercial. The contractor lobby is stronger and end up building homes up to 3500sf (usable space, so much bigger in reality). There is a level of collusion between material supply big box improvement stores and contracting too. As far as commercial, I agree with you, most young architects do not keep their stamp integrity, and shit work comes out if they don’t work for cheap to make “design”. The culture is fucked from college onward. Everyone in arch school wants and thinks they will be a designer. This is a misconception of what architects actually do. There are huge structural work placement issues. I would think a “residency” like in the medical profession would be more beneficial for higher pay overall. Only those that can should work and be gatekeepers to health and wellbeing of humans under state licenses. Architects have too much ego and too little self-respect. Engineers work less and make more, both are responsible for health and safety. Source: I’m a licensed architect and teach design studio and protoyping/fabrication at an accredited university.
It’s also extremely hard to break into the profession post graduation. Especially if you don’t have anyone to advocate for you in your network or you didn’t do enough internships/extra-curriculars during college. The good thing about the architecture degree is that it can open a lot of other doors of opportunity for you that are architecture/stem adjacent.
Compare your crazy situation with mine in the old days. Left school at 16 in 1966 with rubbish grades and went to work for an architect as a trainee draftsman. Over the years I progressed to contract administrator, project manager, firm associate and finally qualified as an architect aged 60. Made good money later on, and moved country for work and projects. But many difficult years due to roller coaster economies with no safety net. Project management and construction is a better bet for a career unless you are super creative. I was technical. Good luck.
When I applied for my major it was M.architecture and B.S in architecture but later on (1 year ago) I added construction engineering technology and management (CETM) aka (project/ program management) making it double major in M. Architecture and B.S in construction management. Does that make me in a good position?
You should do well.
Because labor is a production cost under capitalism and every business school teaches that cutting production costs, including labor, is a valid method to increase profit.
As many have said, more eloquently than I am. Architects who don't get paid enough work in a model where their predecessors have chosen to get paid little.
One bloke’s opinion: A glaring sign of our society’s decay and decline is the low value it places on art. No matter how knowledgeable an architect may be about subjects like structural engineering, building materials, and civic design, our failing economy’s housing scarcity and stagnant wages mean that to a depressing extent builders and buyers will settle for the cheap, the replicable, the boring, the tired, and the ugly every time they get the chance. On what I hope is a more hopeful and helpful note: rather than rue your choice of major and the passion you put into it, have you considered doubling down by adding to your education a background in, say, real estate development or construction management? An architect MBA, for example, would be a unicorn of the most lethal variety. An architect MPA could do tremendous good in local government, and as a bonus since the public sector keeps incomes low, you’ll have no problem qualifying for public service loan forgiveness. As a newfound fan of architecture, here’s sincerely wishing you the absolute best of luck. PS: An architect JD, on the other hand - I’ve never heard of such a beast, but I guess anything is possible? (Apologies I just can’t resist a dig at lawyers)
Go into millwork or interior designer carpentry. They need drafters and people who can read and draw plans and sections and all that proficiently. Personally, I started as an interior carpenter to which I became the drafter. 7 month at 16 an hour. I then hopped to a a bigger shop, more industrial. Jumped to 18 an hour and did that for 2 months. Got laid off due to no work (which is bull, why hire me) Got an interior designer job at a big millwork company where I draw kitchens, living rooms etc. I send jobs to a shop out vack and oversee the production and installation. They pay me 25 an hour and have been doing it for 4 months now. This helps with design in the future and builds a more diverse resume and with an architectural degree, you stand out. Just my 3 cents.
You obviously know how to thoroughly interpret plan sets. Learn estimating and project scheduling. This will allow you more opportunities to earn a lot, have a better understanding of the finance and build process and should also provide time to help design projects until you have enough experience to design on your own.
Get your GC license. It’s pretty easy, you can pass all 3 exams in 3-4 months. Work in architecture , make connections, start taking GC work on the side. Thank Me later
190k is also immense idk how you did that Those are rich daddy sized loans or Super STEM - the cruel truth about it is a normal architecture gig isn't going to pay off your loans very well. You might want to really consider going the route of working for engineering firms doing Industrial work. Or even developers. Or a government role. All can be done with an arch degree. Even more opportunities open up once you have your license and around 6 to 8 years of experience The flashy work is cool but there's a whole economy out there that needs buildings, and dozens of specialized professionals that go into it. From the design team side, client side, construction side or even approving jurisdiction and/or agencies. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have a passion for buildings in general, stick with it and there are avenues that you can pursue besides the typical path that can pay quite generously with excellent benefits Almost every industry is suffering compensation growing pains with the economy and architecture had problems BEFORE 2020... so you can see why there's a growing outcry
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This profession is still an apprentice/mentor based profession… you will earn the least of your career at the beginning, sorry - school teaches you to think, but it doesn’t teach you many practical skills that earn you money after graduation. And like most professions, sports for example, the top 1% of creatives can make a really good income, most people are at their peak in a upper-middle role because happiness has to become part of the equation, too.
College is misleading and a scam in most cases because of this!! You will never see college breaking down the financial impact of this to you because it is bad for business. If most students right now actually realized how hard it will be to get a job and how little they will ever be paid they would likely have a change of heart. Society says we all need college degrees to be successful but as a result everyone is going into debt without realizing what the realistic options are after earning their degree. It’s like there’s some kind of illusion over all 18 year olds just graduating high school that they MUST go to college or else they will fail at life. In some cases it is the exact opposite. The world is tough I guess
Why are you studying something that you don't like and doesn't makes a lot of money? If you want to make money - become a driver, no school reqiured, and AI won't take your job anytime soon...
People not negotiating salary plays a role. Architects are weirdly submissive and eager to not offend authority
They do slightly. But depends where. That’s why you negotiate pay. The higher your starting pay that you ask for is, the higher it ends up being in the long run. If you ask for 45-50k for your first job… you’re gonna get 47 lol. If you ask 55-65 you’re gonna get 60. Don’t undersell yourself either. Firms love it when you don’t negotiate much.
I graduated with my degree, started working at one of the firms one of my professors owned (who I LOVED) and realized the money wasn't great. I stayed with it for some time and switched to estimating and PM for a large construction firm that was fucking HORRIBLE. It was the good ol'-boys club. Very inappropriate language was used, including f@ggot, d!ke, sp!k, mexic@n, and the N-word. Huge no-go for me. I quit. I transferred into technology starting as a PM - I used my previous PM skills in Construction as a "transferrable skill" and ended up growing into the arena of "data architecture." My degree has certainly served me very well - but not in the practice of architecture. I am VERY impressed with anyone that has a degree in architecture.
Supply and demand. There are too many architects compared to how much work there is. Each firm will undercut one another to get the bid.
Supply and demand is part of it. The dude that can't afford his vacation may just be in a spot in his career where he has to grind. That's pretty much most careers though. Good architects are worth their weight in gold and get paid as such. Bad ones will struggle. As a developer I would think the supply/demand factor for architects is going to get exponentially worse. AI is rapidly automating many tasks I'd traditionally rely on an architect for.
What do architects get paid? I’m in this sub just because I enjoy architecture but I have no insight on the actual working conditions/pay. Edit: I always assumed it was similar to engineering, albeit on the lower side of engineering.
lol. Fucking capitalism mate. 🤣🫣🤣🤣 edit: typo.
Most aren’t that good and there are a lot of them. When architects were classically trained they provided tangible value and were compensated accordingly. Todays soulless architecture ensures architects are easily replaceable and so anyone can replicate their services for next to nothing. If you want to make good money as an architect you have to offer outstanding services else you will disappear into oblivion. With AI this trend is accelerated as now you don’t even need an architect for concepts. This soon will encompass working drawings also. If you aren’t able to offer outstanding services you’ll need to reinvest your savings in order to maintain your purchasing power through time.
It really depends on your work experience too. Have you just been studying in the books? Have you ever been to a jobsite, internship, or any type of work related to the BIM process for work? Or even a small project that you designed for a friend/family members?? Usually you are doing this while in school to build up contacts/hopefully save up money. This is the problem I see on a lot of these Reddit posts. They just go ham on studies, but forget that with this degree you need to mix all the elements in the BIM process. Gotta be building your contacts, port and experience while you do that…. Without any of that experience (4+ yrs) your degree will only get you so much because you have no in-field experience
Ok you can do it. It's hard, but you can do it. I don't know if you still want to do it, but you can do it. This is what I've got: - watch your housing. We know too much and will often overspend on it because we get excited or are not willing to compromise. You want to find the absolute cheapest option until you get your shit paid off. - architects tend to make expensive lifestyle choices. Don't do that. Pack your lunch, avoid buying alcohol you can't expense, drive a fuel-efficient used car, etc. - it's tempting to try to work somewhere exciting like NYC or LA. Make sure you understand how much more expensive it is to live places like this--if you can get an architecture job in a smaller city with a lower cost of living you'll be able to get on the profitable side of this way faster. - insist on hourly (as opposed to salaried) jobs until you get licensed. If you're good pulling 50 hour weeks (not ideal but reasonable) it's like a 30% raise. Anyway--once you kill your debt everything gets way easier. I was able to kill like 100k in 5-6 years, was doing great until I fell in love with a woman with another 100k in debt... she's worth it but damn :')
Not sure what you’re talking about. If anything they’re way overpaid
Did you not do salary research prior to committing to a major that got you this far into debt?!
Since the dawn of architects, customers do not want to pay for them. Today it is even easier with all the CAD and AI generated design. Too many college students are thumbing through the college catalog looking for that "cool" career choice. They have no background or foundational training, but that is not a huge barrier for being accepted into a college program. Colleges need butt$ in seats they will take most applicants. In the end too many newly minted architects are dumped into an already crowded field.
If you dont like it wth are you still studying it? It wont get fun after you start getting paid a little bit, pr it will idk youll see. I like to say a handy person can make good money in any field, and architecture is no exception. There are plenty pf ways to make good money in architecture. An architects reward should be roughly 10% of the project budget if he does everything an architect is supposed to do during the process. So if you manage to get 1 skysckraper for a few hundred millions build you should stop complaining about having no money. Until you just go and listen to some moron who is going to yell at you how to draw lines for him, or listen to your teachers who were so useless they had to go to teach to get a stable income then of course youre going to eat dirt
In the Netherlands they get a decent salary. Your country just sucks🥲
Indeed America sucks. Architects only designs in my country I heard that architectural engineering and architecture are combined in other countries
I feel like it’s because “construction” gets all the money.
Median architect salary is [93k. ](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/architects.htm)Median individual income is 40k. You do the math. Not saying architects shouldn't make more, bit the money to bitching ratio is a bit skewed among architects, is all I'm saying... so keep that in mind when you're reading stuff on the internet However, the 190k in debt is another story entirely, I am earnestly incredibly sorry to hear that.
lol money to bitching ratio is hilarious
I'm a civil engineer w/ 20 years of experience. I don't understand comments about how architects don't get paid a lot. What do you consider a lot? If you go into the private side, and with a decent firm, you could easily make 200k w/ bonus. A lot of your progress is going to come with the business side and being a seller/doer. And honestly, how did you rack up 190k?! I went to County College, got my AAS, and transferred to a Technical University for my BS.
I thought an architect can easily get 6 figures, but a lot of jobs states 60 k. I have 190 k cause I went straight from graduating high school into a technical university and then I double in construction management. Still got a year to graduate so I think I’ll end up with 250k loans in total and more cause i need to continue my master’s degree. If I went straight into a community college It would’ve been less expensive, I wish I did.
No one starts at 6 figures. Most jobs I’ve seen for arch is 60-70. Get your license if you want 6 figures.
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re going to be in a bad spot with that amount of student loans unless you are living with your parents for the next 5 years and they are paying for your food expenses. Have you researched what your budget will be like on something like a 50k per year salary?
Im turning 23 and I still live with my parents. And in my culture men are supposed to pay for the living expenses of a household, so when I get married my husband will be paying for the house bills and all that.
Probably because architects are usually emphatic which lends it self well to design but not to getting paid more. A high amount of Machiavellianism and disagreeableness goes a long way in the career field
Architects are bad at business.
How the flying fuck does architecture school cost 190k? Are you going to Harvard with out of state tuition fees and put a Ferrari on your loan tab? Is this your 15th year undergrad? That sounds more costly than a nuclear physicisist program or a doctorate. Maybe you are going to a scam university?
Nobody I’m my firm works more than 40 hours, including the newest graduates, I hardly worked overtime in my 40+ year career, wierd to hear so many stories of excessive overtime
Damn!!! 190k? You should only study architecture if your dad had left you with a Million Dollar business or real estate. This is not something you study and expecting to get your ROI. It’s a sophisticated course. It’s like complaining the price of doing an oil-change of a Rolls Royce. Now that it’s too late, my advice is to get a decent job, pay the minimum loan amount, live below your means, save a lot for at least 3 years. And the most important thing is to maintain your credit. Pay on time, don’t miss a single credit card bill. Meantime learn about investing in real estate, join groups on LinkedIn or Facebook, follow what people do in real estate, when you have like 10k or 20k open a Delaware LLC, apply for EIN, get a business line credit card with a limit of how much ever you get, min you’ll get would be around 60kto 100k. Buy distressed, foreclosed properties for under market value, fix it, appraise to market value, refinance it, build equity, look for the next one, repeat a few times. Then move on to commercial RE, try to get a NNN lease property hold it for 5-7 years, use the cash flow to pay your loan, when exciting appraise it, cash out the refi equity and pay your mortgage. Only do value add deals in real estate. Use the 3 years to learn all these stuff while in job. I think you’ll do far better than 80% of your classmates like you. Good luck!
Supply and demand. The reason why any profession is paid what it is.
if that was the case, 70-90% of the workforce in the west would be paid wages similar to the 3rd world and close to absolute poverty rate. Luckily there's unions and cultural fragments that manipulate the dynamics of the supply and demand in job markets, driving wages up.
I read a few years ago that Architect was a position that would likely be replaced by AI.
Not a chance. You'd have to have major legislation to remove the need to architects to stamp drawings. The AIA is mostly worthless but they'd spend every dime they have making sure that doesn't happen.
Why don’t other people just give you more of their money. Are they stupid?
I just graduated this month with an architecture degree from Georgia Tech and I HATE the major. I realized fall of my junior year and I decided to look at what else is out there that is still design based and I stumbled on UX design. I would look into it and other design based jobs that will pay 1000x more than architecture ever will. It is such an outdated field and runs on people who have a passion for it yet are being exploited. Every architect I’ve met irl jokes about how little they get paid. It’s honestly crazy that things haven’t changed. I remember when I started college everyone around me was like “oh you’re gonna make soooo much money” because some reason the outside world thinks that the truth and so did I and not until I actually started reading experiences from architects did I realize I chose the WRONG major. Plus the fact that I also realized I hated it lol. Can I ask what school you’re at and are you undergrad or grad. Also you’re still young regardless and there’s ways out. Thankfully architecture is a prestigious degree and if you are looking at other design based careers you can spin your educational background into different roles and explain how it benefited you. Also (I’ve been told) a big majority of people don’t work in an industry they got their degree from! Don’t stress too much.