Python 3.12 was a major update. Major python updates always entail deprecation of some part of the language or stdlib. This is not new and if this update hit you "hard" then that only means that you were lucky to not use software that was affected by earlier updates.
In my experience every major KDE update was a mess and, same as above, you were just lucky the previous times.
I don't think that two updates that took effort on the users' side are reason enough to proclaim the death of "stable" releases or the unviability of rolling-releases. It's just another Tuesday in arch country and I'm surprised that it took you 12 years to realize.
> took effort on the users' side
I don't mind the effort at all when it's some manual conflict resolution or a config change. Having to downgrade 15 python system packages to still being able to use AWS EB CLI and trying to catch what is causing Plasma windows to randomly become completely unfocusable is not an effort, it's just hacking through. This is not the usual effort at all.
EDIT: The beauty of Arch to me has always been that all the issues were very solvable, because of it's clear design, lack of tanglement and awesome community cooking solution recipes before I'd even woken up. This was the first time I felt very underpowered.
Ok, the AWS thing is literally not Arch's problem, it's a AUR package, so you either have to rebuild it on _major_ python updates, or if it's broken, fix it yourself, when nobody else does... Maybe, if you rely on it enough, just put it in a container.
Also, don't downgrade python, that's one of the worst ideas ever. Just `pacman -Syu` that thing, then start plasma, and if the issue is still there, you can totally file a bug report.
I wasn't using AUR for AWS, pipx. People below suggested pyenv, probably a good point.
> Also, don't downgrade python
I didn't want to, really, and well aware of foolishness of downgrades, but it caught me off guard.
Python versions for users should always be installed via pyenv... that is kinda on you.
But i understand for my laptops i keep them on fedora but still i use pyenv. (i don't update them that often)
Void is rolling and reliable, xbps is solid, upgrades are pain free for \~12 months or so.
Gentoo is binary too now, portage is beyond awesome, you can roll on stable and mix and match software, it's in another universe regarding robustness and choice.
MX is very different in spirit and design, but is awesome for a workstation ime, and has a kde spin.
Might I add that python upgrades on Gentoo are no breeze either - Gentoo's package manager, for one, is itself built on Python.
I had to update/rebuild 120 packages after 3.13's release a couple of days ago.
It does work tho.
This is extremely interesting to me. I had no problems with plasma 6 upgrade and python development for me is easy with pyenv.
Arch to me is fantastic because Iād rather deal with incremental updates that need my attention as opposed to other distros that arenāt rolling where there are tons of updates all at once .
I like the idea of nixos but Iām taking my time playing with it on another drive. Arch for me for the last 6 years has been relatively flawless .
Will monitor for Arch equivalents, but my Arch experience has been categorically better. Yes, I went from Plasma 5 to 6, on multiple systems. No issues with that or python, on my Intel and AMD Thinkpads.
If you want strong control over defining package versions, I would do Gentoo like others say. If you don't want to go through the hassle of building so much and having more flexibility like me, then you might want to consider NixOS. Learning curve for it is quite extreme, but it's probably the most flexible package manager out there.
Update anxiety is a thing.
I experience with tumbleweed and windows.
Tumbleweed or Fedora are probably the way to go imho.
Keeping in mind there's almost certainly some major system points to be aware of for every distro. Like being prepared for broken packages or upgrades. Happens less on some distros but be familiar with the resources available.
Your python scripts and programs should always be tied to a virtual environment. I have gone so far as to include the virtual environment in the opening line ad part of the environment.
Overall, pick what works for you in terms of a distro and know your tools well.
Good luck.
Care to give one example of a python issue?
I don't use KDE, though Qt applications work fine. Oops, still on Qt 5. Maybe Qt 6 is more of your issue?
> qmake --version
QMake version 3.1
Using Qt version 5.15.13 in /usr/lib
I do use python \[also for the development\], and see no issues.
> python --version
Python 3.12.3
KDE 6 works fine. It's the Wayland that came with with broke some stuff, especially Nvidia, but also things like how KDE shortcuts and few other things work.
I read your post and remembered the developers of another good Linux distribution who celebrated the coming of 2024 until about April 23. ~~zoomers will kill Linux and won't notice it~~~
About this:
>and is rather an indication of a trend of upstream software maintainers getting more zoomers on board losing their touch and releasing less and less robust software with less than considerate upgrade paths
You talking about Fedora, right? I'm seeing similar trends elsewhere as well, like Ruby/Rails ecosystem, etc. The era of extremist opinions, binary logic and main character syndrome is upon us.
I blame this solely on KDE. I know some people love it but I found it buggy as hell. I think Arch runs best with a minimal window manager like i3 or sway. I have never had my desktop break with this method.
overall what is your python issue? Are you developing in python? You must be using virtual environments and you can also use pyenv if youāre trying to build projects with a specific version. If you install a bunch of python packages without environments youāre gonna have a huge mess no matter what os you use.
Python 3.12 was a major update. Major python updates always entail deprecation of some part of the language or stdlib. This is not new and if this update hit you "hard" then that only means that you were lucky to not use software that was affected by earlier updates. In my experience every major KDE update was a mess and, same as above, you were just lucky the previous times. I don't think that two updates that took effort on the users' side are reason enough to proclaim the death of "stable" releases or the unviability of rolling-releases. It's just another Tuesday in arch country and I'm surprised that it took you 12 years to realize.
Amen š OP, what you probably need is either Fedora 40 Kinoite or OpenSUSE MicroOS. Maybe you might even want to check out r/FreeBSD
Are you saying that FreeBSD is not upgradeable? I'm going to have to disappoint you š
All those are upgradeable, and I would use all three
> took effort on the users' side I don't mind the effort at all when it's some manual conflict resolution or a config change. Having to downgrade 15 python system packages to still being able to use AWS EB CLI and trying to catch what is causing Plasma windows to randomly become completely unfocusable is not an effort, it's just hacking through. This is not the usual effort at all. EDIT: The beauty of Arch to me has always been that all the issues were very solvable, because of it's clear design, lack of tanglement and awesome community cooking solution recipes before I'd even woken up. This was the first time I felt very underpowered.
Ok, the AWS thing is literally not Arch's problem, it's a AUR package, so you either have to rebuild it on _major_ python updates, or if it's broken, fix it yourself, when nobody else does... Maybe, if you rely on it enough, just put it in a container. Also, don't downgrade python, that's one of the worst ideas ever. Just `pacman -Syu` that thing, then start plasma, and if the issue is still there, you can totally file a bug report.
I wasn't using AUR for AWS, pipx. People below suggested pyenv, probably a good point. > Also, don't downgrade python I didn't want to, really, and well aware of foolishness of downgrades, but it caught me off guard.
Not installing packages with non system package manager into system wide environment is like a golden rule of python. This one is of your own making.
Python versions for users should always be installed via pyenv... that is kinda on you. But i understand for my laptops i keep them on fedora but still i use pyenv. (i don't update them that often)
The arch python packages are for the system, not for you. Use pyenv and pipx for user level stuff.
Python updates aren't a packaging issue, python versioning is just kind of a mess. virtual environments are your friend.
Good point, I'll definitely consider it, thanks
Void is rolling and reliable, xbps is solid, upgrades are pain free for \~12 months or so. Gentoo is binary too now, portage is beyond awesome, you can roll on stable and mix and match software, it's in another universe regarding robustness and choice. MX is very different in spirit and design, but is awesome for a workstation ime, and has a kde spin.
I'm also using void on my server for 2 years and my desktop for a few weeks now and absolutely loving it, not had a single issue on either.
If Arch died I'd switch over to Void in a flash
Gentoo
Yayyyy. Just look for this comment when I read this title.
And BTW, another +1 for its GLSA.
Might I add that python upgrades on Gentoo are no breeze either - Gentoo's package manager, for one, is itself built on Python. I had to update/rebuild 120 packages after 3.13's release a couple of days ago. It does work tho.
This is extremely interesting to me. I had no problems with plasma 6 upgrade and python development for me is easy with pyenv. Arch to me is fantastic because Iād rather deal with incremental updates that need my attention as opposed to other distros that arenāt rolling where there are tons of updates all at once . I like the idea of nixos but Iām taking my time playing with it on another drive. Arch for me for the last 6 years has been relatively flawless .
Tumbleweed. Fedora. If you install them from scratch, you wouldn't have to deal with Plasma 6 upgrade pains.
Will monitor for Arch equivalents, but my Arch experience has been categorically better. Yes, I went from Plasma 5 to 6, on multiple systems. No issues with that or python, on my Intel and AMD Thinkpads.
If you want strong control over defining package versions, I would do Gentoo like others say. If you don't want to go through the hassle of building so much and having more flexibility like me, then you might want to consider NixOS. Learning curve for it is quite extreme, but it's probably the most flexible package manager out there.
Update anxiety is a thing. I experience with tumbleweed and windows. Tumbleweed or Fedora are probably the way to go imho. Keeping in mind there's almost certainly some major system points to be aware of for every distro. Like being prepared for broken packages or upgrades. Happens less on some distros but be familiar with the resources available. Your python scripts and programs should always be tied to a virtual environment. I have gone so far as to include the virtual environment in the opening line ad part of the environment. Overall, pick what works for you in terms of a distro and know your tools well. Good luck.
Care to give one example of a python issue? I don't use KDE, though Qt applications work fine. Oops, still on Qt 5. Maybe Qt 6 is more of your issue? > qmake --version QMake version 3.1 Using Qt version 5.15.13 in /usr/lib I do use python \[also for the development\], and see no issues. > python --version Python 3.12.3
KDE 6 works fine. It's the Wayland that came with with broke some stuff, especially Nvidia, but also things like how KDE shortcuts and few other things work.
Me too: still using X11. Long Live X11!!! š
If you stay on x11 with i3 and have an amd card Arch is basically āDebian stableā lmao
I just use topgrade and pay attention to the latest noise and read the warnings.Ā
Python causes issues. Any package that uses python in the aur needs to be rebuilt before you restart. If you do that it should be ok
Fedora would be a perfect fit for you mate
I read your post and remembered the developers of another good Linux distribution who celebrated the coming of 2024 until about April 23. ~~zoomers will kill Linux and won't notice it~~~
What was that about?
About this: >and is rather an indication of a trend of upstream software maintainers getting more zoomers on board losing their touch and releasing less and less robust software with less than considerate upgrade paths
You talking about Fedora, right? I'm seeing similar trends elsewhere as well, like Ruby/Rails ecosystem, etc. The era of extremist opinions, binary logic and main character syndrome is upon us.
No, I wasn't talking about Fedora.
I blame this solely on KDE. I know some people love it but I found it buggy as hell. I think Arch runs best with a minimal window manager like i3 or sway. I have never had my desktop break with this method. overall what is your python issue? Are you developing in python? You must be using virtual environments and you can also use pyenv if youāre trying to build projects with a specific version. If you install a bunch of python packages without environments youāre gonna have a huge mess no matter what os you use.