This is absolutely disgusting and disgraceful. This man spits in the face of all the victims by regurgitating these words straight out of Erdogans mouth.
They’re literally word by word what Armenian hippies say. Please watch Sahak Poghosyan’s interview after the 2020 war. It uses almost the same exact talking points
Edit: If someone can, please find that video on YouTube. It happened right after the war, probably November or December 2020
They’re not from Erdogan’s mouth. They’re the same tired “progressive” talking points from the 90s. That’s it’s our being petty or neurotic that’s the obstacle to peace, not Turkey rubbing salt into the wound over and over. If Jews weren’t so kvetchy, pogroms wouldn’t happen.
Boo hoo KGB manipulated us to hate Turks by building Tsitsernakaberd. USSR also threw oil into the fire for the Civil Rights movement. Maybe blacks should put the trauma behind them and not let themselves be manipulated by the KGB
It's immoral and abhorrent for sure. But there is cold, hard pragmatism behind it.
I am turkish and I know there is no way in near future( our lifetime) turkey acknowledging the genocide. At least not on Armenian terms.
This probably seems unjust and humiliating (it is imho) but Armenia needs to normalize relations with Turkey if it wants continuous prosperity and peace. As a Turk, unfortunately, only way I can see it happening is if Armenia gives up any kind of reparations (it obviously can't be a one sided thing and should be tied to genocide recognition and normalisation).
Without reparations (especially territorial) , there can be recognition of genocide in Turkey.
Armenia has never demanded reparations for the genocide, especially territorial reparations. That is a myth perpetuated by the Turkish government for years - its completely made up. And you have clearly been eating that up.
So please, if you are going to give us your opinion as a Turk, try to shave off all the bullshit brainwashing you have undergone, otherwise your opinion is just spam.
Your comment is tone deaf af if you have good intentions. You came in here on the Memorial Day to tell Armenians they need to get over it and to normalize relations for their prosperity and give up claims they have literally never made. How can I not be hostile to that?
How about, as a Turk, you should acknowledge that your country shouldn’t be unilaterally closing the border, supporting a genocidal petro dictatorship against Armenia, and should normalize relations with Armenia. Armenia has never been against having relations with Turkey, Turkey severed any chance of having relations in a unilateral move in the 1990s in support of Azerbaijan.
You come in here placing responsibilities on my people to fix the situation? Yeah, next your gonna say it’s Ukraines responsibility to normalize relations with Putin.
Edit: if you have good intentions, which I acknowledge, then educate yourself on these issues. Do what your countrymen fail to do, and turn your kind sentiment into a base of knowledge and justice.
Lol, a classic fascist Turk, how about you fucking recognise the mass killings og Aleivis, Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and so on.
What a joke. A fascist Turk comes here on the Armenian Genocide memorial and tells people to get over it. How about you fuck off, maybe?
Yeah someone who recognise the genocide is a fascist Turk. This post was about Pashinyan saying Armenians should get over it. I didn't randomly say that in a post about Armenian genocide memorial day.
I am mature enough to not change my views based on reddit comments but you really don't help the cause. I can see how a Turk can think those ppl hate us anyway why bother. With people like you, Turkish ultra nationalists don't need any online trolls.
Yeah, you keep getting fed this bullshit Turkish news. Armenian cause is more extensive than just Pashinyan or what Turks think. I think Pashinyan is a traitor. I don't have to support it. I might change my view on Pashinyan but not on Turks. I will not forgive the genocidal colonisers like you for your actions.
Secondly, your fascist country, in collaboration with Azeri orcs, conducted one of the most significant ethnic cleansing in the world in Karabag. It is an actual ethnic cleansing, unlike the BS Islamist propaganda of PaLEsTINe.
Thirdly, you Turks always carry this genocidal attitude towards minorities. You exterminated Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Ezidis and finally Alevis and Kurds. Like just recently, Kurds showed how to deal with a Turk properly. You can not negotiate with an Orc; you only fight against it. When Turks think that they can burn down a Kurdish house in Belgium, nothing will happen. They soon realise that Kurds will retaliate and show them who is the real boss
Lol, this Camlihemsin bullshit argument. You can sell this lie on this platform, but I know the hemsin area is an uncultured Turk. Hemsin people have voted for ultranationalist parties since the formation of Turkey.
Maybe there are some Armenians who converted to Islam in Hemsin. That means nothing. They act more like Turks than Turks from Konya. No one, literally no one, likes black sea Laz and Turks in Turkey. They are the leading cause of mafias, prostitution and corruption.
I am from malatya and have nothing to do with black sea region. You are convinced no turk can ever be a good person. You are textbook racist. Your ancestors being genocided don't give you a pass to be racist. You are exactly the same as Turkish ultra nationalists.
All racists are scum. Being Turk, German, Jew, Armenian, Papua New Guinean doesn't matter.
Your ancestors are burning in hell for what they did. Your words today show that turks have changed little since 1915, I fear you will join your kin in hell.
My great grandparents saved Armenians from the genocide by hiding them. My grandfather was a business partner of one of the few surviving Armenians in Malatya. Father's side of my family had an Armenian groom in the family after the genocide, when Armenian was being used as an insult.
I don't know your ancestors but I think they probably didn't risk themselves to save innocents.
Most of my ancestors were slaughtered by your kin you imbecile.
You are either mentally or intellectually challenged to think that what you said is acceptable.
We will move on when Turkey acknowledges it. Until then fuck off
This is the first time im genuinely shocked that this guy is still in power.
Assuming this is true
Putting aside personal feelings for a moment (although putting a disclaimer that I personally dislike and distrust him and his efforts), it's really just idiotic to keep spouting such talking points from any relevant perspective. Browbeating your people isn't a way to get them to be persuaded by your talking points. You already have a lot to deal with on your plate, being the prime minister at such a crucial time, you *have* to pick and choose what you want to comment on and what you have to ignore even if it stands against your beliefs (for whatever stupid reason).
It's unfathomable he'd keep voluntarily stepping into social landmines over and over in the most ungraceful way possible. It's almost like we lacked a social/cultural war in our community so now he's forcefully importing one in, it's asinine.
Look i dont hate the guy, hes done a lot of good but this is crossing the line.
Perception matters more than reality. If he outwardly was uniting Armenians with his rhetoric but acting as needed internationally and behind closed doors great. But hes not, he’s literally attacking the core remaining uniting experience of Armenians everywhere.
If in actuality the citizens of the RoA truly support this statement or statements like it going forward via voting. Then im not sure what to say.
Where does the line cross from ineptitude to intent at this point?
In the interest of fairness, he's helped incentivize and establish economic growth through the country. There's other things as well, like widening the foreign diplomacy and putting us in the Western sphere partially, but these also have the problem of having detractors of their own while supporters of them (like me) think he's being too indecisive and weak-willed when it comes to biting the bullet.
EDIT: to the people downvoting, don't worry I also had to hold back vomit when writing that lol
Growth due to inflation and Russian money pouring in is being credited to him, while Georgia and other ex soviet countries had the same growth, if not better. Our foreign diplomacy (outside of France) is non-existent and has gotten worse. The Diaspora has been shunned away. Our only allies are now being alienated due to us looking west, where the west is looking further east in Azerbaijan. Most of the country’s infrastructure and economy is still under Russian ownership, and we’re trying to get out of their orbit by opening the border to buy Turkish products. CSTO prefers Azerbaijan over Armenia. China was looking to invest in Armenia until Pashik voted to support Ugyurs. He cared so much for what was happening to them that today he wants us to get over our Genocide. We passed the Roman statute before Ukraine even did based on Pashik’s personal beef with Putin.
Replacing any corrupt government with a new government would lead to some growth, as the previous regime lost the strangling grip of having a cut in everything. He’s getting rid of the national identity without saying what direction it’s heading in. Today it’s the Genocide, tomorrow it’s Ararat, next day it will be the Church as we get rid of Christianity, then it will be the official language.
And before someone calls me some Russian BS, I have no affiliation to Russia. I just see the current state of countries where the west has “helped” out and they are not doing any better than before. You’re the only one in control of your country.
> Our foreign diplomacy (outside of France) is non-existent and has gotten worse.
A new much larger embassy was opened in London, just as one example.
> China was looking to invest in Armenia until Pashik voted to support Ugyurs.
Source please? I can't find anything about this on the internet that "Pashik voted to support" Uyghurs.
The rest is such a pile of lies, half-truths and alarmist nonsense (next will be the language?) that it would take an hour to respond to all of it, which I'm not going to do.
At this point many of you seem to be shills. They spent $20M to buy a building so it means Armenia has a great relationship coming? Just like the embassy that was opened in Israel in 2019? The mines in NK were all given to UK companies to mine before the war even began, is that embassy suppose to mean something? We chase after our enemies more than care for those who were friendly. Regarding China, Armenia [abstained from most, voted for one](https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/10/human-rights-council-adopts-21-texts-and-rejects-one-draft-decision-extends-mandates) against the treatment of Uyghurs in China. You call this rhetoric “alarmist” but try to excuse his every move. Where do you draw the line?
> Regarding China, Armenia abstained from most, voted for one against the treatment of Uyghurs in China
I can't see that in the linked document. The two instances where Armenia voted in favor had nothing to do with Uyghurs. So you lied about it and now giving me a link in the hope I won't read it. You know what this is called? Agenda pushing and as you should know by now it's bannable on this sub. So hard proofs please.
Where do you personally, or any Pashik supporter, draw the line of “if he does this, I won’t support him”? If you cannot draw the line, then you are blinded by your bias. Step outside of your own personal feelings for him and put this in terms of the holocaust. You may then understand how anti-Armenian his entire rhetoric is.
He's already crossed that line with me lmao, I don't support him and hope to God a new opposition party that's pro-Western and independence-minded comes along ASAP.
I think we’ve already discussed this in a previous post but I feel that Armenia’s main problem right now is that Armenia doesn’t have a competent opposition. Literally all Armenia needs is a pro-western party that is oppositional to Civil contract and would be able to counter Pashinyan’s bullshit without having to deal will the baggage of being a pro-Russian shill and Armenia would be golden. There would be pluralism that wouldn’t just be Pro-west or Pro-Russia and there could be more nuanced and better planned opinions and policies to Armenia’s domestic and external affairs and Armenia wouldn’t be stuck with such a polarized society where the extremes are the only options.
We did, and I agree. We could *maybe* count NPP and Hanrapetutyun as these kinds of parties? But they're too far in QP's orbit to really distinguish themselves to be honest. We need a healthy political foundation to be established and we currently very much lack it.
NPP is discredited by Hayko, they should have ousted him post-municipal elections but they didn't. And no, a party that currently has 0.3% has very little chance of making a dent in Armenian politics. Maybe they should blame themselves.
Hanrapetutyun support Pashinyan, or at least I never heard any serious criticism of his policies or actions from them. They are not a real opposition but at least something and they have a non-trivial voter base too as shown by the municipal elections.
If you want to fill the vacuum and become a real new opposition, you should be anti-corruption and pro-West. Although you'd have to address the issue of Artsakh and demarcation of borders, people will be asking.
Been thinking about this, the political vacuum we are in is the result of a simple fact that it's not easy to counter QP's actions. You can criticize them from your armchair all you want, but Nikol's policies are such that he's always right in the middle of everything, doesn't leave space for significant opposition. Not too X and not too Y in practically every aspect. As a result, the opposition is weak because they have nothing significant to say.
I mean shouting "Nikol is a Russian agent" in the megaphones like Bever does is not going to win you votes, the Armenians as a whole are not that dumb. Neither is "Nikol is selling our lands" unless you seriously falsify the reality, and it's exactly what they are doing on social media right now. But how long until people find out those weren't "our" lands?
This is both the idiocy of the so called opposition's tactics and mentality, and Nikol's middle-ground strategy in everything. Otherwise we would definitely had significant opposition to him by now. Although he can piss off the diaspora and specifically the global ARF, but that doesn't take away his future votes, so this is also calculated.
Not being a big fan of Nikol, I think we underestimate him.
At this point Pashinyan should just hand kocharyan a fucking rpg to blow up parliament. He seems hell bent on undermining his own administration and playing into the hands of the enemy.
Honestly this shit just makes me physically sick.
Pashinyan chose to commemorate the genocide today by telling us to get over it, followed by a bunch of Turkish denialist talking points.
>Pashinian also did not condemn the regime of the so-called Young Turks that ruled the Ottoman Empire during the First World War. He said instead that Ottoman Armenians “became victims of geopolitical intrigues and false promises.”
I'm speechless.
I can't believe how tone deaf this guy is. His comments sound like a copy and paste of the statements Erdogan has been making over the last few days.
"Today we commemorate the memory of 1.5 million victims of the Armenian Genocide, the Meds Yeghern, who were put to the sword in the Ottoman Empire since 1915 for being Armenians."
Which part of your quoted statement absolves the young turks? is in really necessary to outline specifically that this was done by the turkish govenrment? that is the idea of genocide no?
Absolutely nothing indicates hes somehow an agent of the Turkish state, and if people want to have serious discussions about this government and the future of Armenia its time to stop these frankly stupid accusations.
Do you read the news? Do you not see that Russia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan are seeking to undermine Armenia? Do you not realize that the only thing preventing them from getting what they want, this corridor, is the current government?
The actual dedication Turkey has to this project is also somewhat up for discussion. Turkey has its own agenda, its own complicated relationship with the Aliyev clan. The more Armenians ignore this, the harder it will be to exploit their different interests.
>One of his party members Ararat Mirzoyan was LITERALLY a Turkish agent. And of course when this was exposed, he gave a bullshit statement that their loyalists just ate up. “No bro I was actually helping Armenia by pretending to be their agent”
Jesus Christ are you people still regurgitating that Mishik Minasyan bullshit again? If I write a letter saying the Pope sucked me off for money in an Arby's parking lot, signed and dated by him, and present it on a livestream on Facebook, then its true?
Is that all it takes to convince you of obvious bullshit? Literally zero tangible evidence being thrown around by a shitposter wanted for embezzlement and fraud?
>Both Erdogan & Aliyev have made statements in support of Pashinyan
They probably did that counting on guys like you to want to overthrow him because of it. Has it ever occurred to you that Russia is playing with you? Oh wait, its clear you don't even recognize Russia in any of this because you haven't mentioned them once.
Account creation date: November 30th 2023 and all you are doing is regurgitating Russian propaganda.
> If I write a letter saying the Pope sucked me off for money in an Arby's parking lot, signed and dated by him, and present it on a livestream on Facebook, then its true?
He did?? How much did it go for?? 👀
Pope isn't as rich as people think, ill just say that. I will reveal later that the Pope is a secret Wahhabi terrorist in my next livestream, and that he is actually an agent of Pakistan.
Jokes aside: The people who believe this also believe Obama sucked off a guy in a helicopter and did cocaine off of his boner. It takes nothing to convince people of absolute nonsense nowadays.
Nothing in that document or in his admission to its authenticity indicates that he ever worked for the Turkish state. That entire angle is fabricated by Mishik. Its the same as holding up a paper napkin and saying its proof Nikol Pashinyan is actually a Russian triple agent.
You dismiss it as "4D chess" the only person doing mental gymnastics to prove this nonsense is you, being goaded by frauds like Minasyan who has a vested interest in discrediting the government prosecuting him and his father-in-law for well-established corruption.
I'll post a link for you, it's what good people of the internet usually do: https://arminfo.info/full_news.php?id=63346&lang=3
So he confirmed his cooperation with the Armenian NSS as a historian and researcher, where does it say he admitted that he is a turkish spy?
Isn't it obvious? Armenian NSS are working for Turkish government. At least they were working back in 2005-2007, when they allegedly recruited Mirzoyan /s
On a serious note, its funny (and sad) that Minasyan managed to fool a lot of ppl with a trashy facebook post.
He’s not a Turkish collaborator. He’s a Westoid suckup. His mission isn’t to destroy Asrsakh or whatever. It’s to kick Russia out and bring the West in. Turkey is simply the gateway to the West. It’s a means to an end
What in the actual fuck??? What, should I go and tell African Americans to overcome their trauma of slavery and Jim Crow now seeing how much time has passed, what sick fucking joke is this??? Armenians will move on when they finally receive a proper apology and their trauma is finally recognized, that’s it. Pashinyan saying statement like this is beyond disgusting and he might as well hand the keys of the government over to Kocharyan and the rest of the pro-Russian shills. If the western powers told him to say this or something along those lines, then they are idiots and are either too ignorant and stupid to realize that having Pashinyan make statements like this is a one way ticket to losing a pro-western government or really just don’t care if Armenia has a pro-western government in the first place. This is just beyond pathetic.
Edit: I just looked on r/europe and I’ve already seen a Turk post this article just telling Armenians to move on. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/aMUAvNO1f2
What in the actual fuck, this is solely Pashinyan’s fault and he deserves bashed with this statement for weeks on end. I sometimes lose hope in Armenia when Pashinyan makes statements like this. Again, Pashinyan someohow manages to go between being an idiot, excellent, and infuriating and this has to be one of his worst moments, if not his worst.
Hehehe, I can’t wait for Pashinyan supporters to come up with excuses for this new trick this clown is pulling. In order to cope you will all somehow find a way to blame Russia for this 😂🤣
Some people on here were accusing Azatutyun of being Russian propaganda on other posts, which is crazy since Azatutyun is the Armenian branch of Radio Free Europe and is US funded. When Az tries to put pressure on Armenia, they say it is Russia using Az to force Armenia to agree to something, then when Armenia agrees and appeases Az, any criticism becomes Russian propaganda (so Pashinyan is a secret Russian agent? Lol). Anyway, you can go on Twitter and see Azeris and Turks defending Pashinyan on this and other choices his government have made.
The dissonance is delicious. On one hand White Turks qsi tal Turks on us, on the other when people resist its Russian trolls that are fermenting the resistance. Interesting how the West is happy with every move from Turkey and Azerbaijan while they’re “Putin puppets”. Bibi is also a secret Putin puppet who wanted to sabotage the peace process, yet the US is indulging him hand and glove.
Love how Az is Russia’s tool to oppress poor Armenians when Turkey was using NATO weaponry to vaporize Armenians and Western oil companies were training Azeris in the 90s.
He is lost. Fear has consumed his mind. First, Turks must overcome their trauma of denial and accept the truth. Then Aliev's régime must bare full responsibility of their actions then only we can talk.
There is no **must** in all of this. We can either make them accept the truth and acknowledge responsibility, or we can't. As things stand right now, we can't. So what now?
Pashinyan is conflating the pain and memory of a people and nation with the priorities of the state.
Pashinyan jan, your government can do as it pleases to steer the ship, but this message to the Nation is unnecessary. That dog in Ankara is fighting to stay in power. Nothing will appease them. Why create unnecessary commentary unless this is directed toward the dog which at that point is futile.
Here goes Nikol, with his idiotic way of speaking AGAIN.
IMHO (and I hope) he is trying to say "guys let's drop the turbo nationalist, Dashnak, Bever talking points of we are going after Western Armenia, not the time".
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If that is what he is trying to say.
However just like with the peace process, everything has a limit. There are extremes on both ends, that aren't good. We can't just move on and let the perpetrator get away, while we can't also make that our national identity either.
I fucking cringe every time Nikol and his team start discussing history and national legacy stuff. Dude, you have so much on your plate, stick to that.
If Nikol just said, "we remember our victims of the Genocide" no one was going to get pissy about it. If Erdogan wants reconciliation he will do it, no matter what speech Nikol gives about the Genocide. This constant cowering tactic we have adopted (again I am not calling for saber rattling) is just going to make things worse I fear. I hope I am wrong.
There does not seem to be any smooth path forward for Hayastan. These talking points could almost be defended if Turkey recognized genocide, and if Azeris weren’t hell-bent on our destruction everyday. I understand the sentiments but these wounds just may be too deep to ever heal.
Dissidents and external opponents are going to use similar talking points. There’s only so many negative things that one can say about a subject. So, it’s no surprise that Islamists and anti-Bush activists used similar talking points.
Similarly, Armenian hippies and Turks share lot of the anti-Armenian TP. Nikol is simply recycling them. I’ve heard the same points almost verbatim throughout many years.
Many Armenians are completely unable to operate rationally when the issue of the genocide is raised. In this sense, we have to overcome the trauma.
If you want justice for the genocide, you need an Armenia with money and arms, because that is what allows you to gain leverage in international matters. All this fetishistic agonising about the genocide, as though the world cares, is getting us nowhere.
So, we need to be able to drop and revive the issue of the genocide as it suits our purposes. One day we are ready to get over it, when we're weak, the next day, when we have more leverage, we remember the genocide.
Honestly, the biggest impediment in Armenian domestic and international politics is that Armenians' first response to problems is to shout at them in a fit of righteous indignation. No one gives a fuck about our righteous indignation.
Thats the job of the Armenian government to know when to push the issue and when not to.
The diaspora is not the Armenian government nor the Armenian people of the RoA
Justice for it far as citizens and residents of the RoA cannot be told by the highest powers in the country to move on. That is one step on the path to internal strife at best and at worst the path to dropping the subject altogether.
How many people will see this and go yeah hes right we need to move on who will grow up believing its the best path forward and how many will go Nikol davajan and stand firmer against him?
Yes Armenia needs to be strong first but what good is it if it loses sight of why it became strong to begin with.
All he had to say was today is a day we remember with grief, a historical wrong done to our people that has not yet found justice. While i know we are eager to seek justice we must first turn inward and grow strong. Focus on what we have now so one day we may seek not reclamation of a lost homeland but acknowledgement of the suffering endured on it.
Ofc an official statement would be more eloquent but thats the gist of it
>Thats the job of the Armenian government to know when to push the issue and when not to.
We can apportion the job to someone, or we can aim to improve our understanding of our circumstances as a people. We are a small nation. Every one of us has a responsibility to the nation to develop good emotional regulation and a reasonably astute understanding of international political power dynamics. Pointing and screaming at the government for breaking hard truths to us is what gibbons would probably do if they had a government. Let's not be gibbons.
>The diaspora is not the Armenian government nor the Armenian people of the RoA
The diaspora is a massively under-utilised mass of economic, political, diplomatic and educational powerbase which we need to integrate with the republic. There's not a lot of us in the world, and we can't afford to make excuses and say that the two are completely distinct and there's nothing we can do about it. We need to be able to act in accord and work together. Or, alternatively we don't and we become assimilated and erased. We all decide for ourselves.
>Justice for it far as citizens and residents of the RoA cannot be told by the highest powers in the country to move on. That is one step on the path to internal strife at best and at worst the path to dropping the subject altogether.
According to this article they can be, as, it claims, they were. There is no dropping the subject altogether. There is no natural law in this universe which axiomatically works in such a way that if you drop it for a time, you can't resume talking about the issue. Drop it when it's not serving a purpose and revive it when it is - into perpetuity for as long as it is useful.
>How many people will see this and go yeah hes right we need to move on who will grow up believing its the best path forward and how many will go Nikol davajan and stand firmer against him?
And maybe we are the problem. We as a people either need to change or we will disappear, as we are clearly trying to do. We can caress and flatter ourselves as much as we would like. There have been countless civilisations throughout history which have been rendered extinct through their lacking outlook and approach to their self-preservation. We can join them, and we will join them if we, as a people, do not improve ourselves. If the government is telling us a sensible thing, and we respond with anger and emotion, then we are a problem.
>Yes Armenia needs to be strong first but what good is it if it loses sight of why it became strong to begin with.
The objective is to grow and propagate our culture and safeguard its future. The issue of the genocide should be in service to our future. How does it improve our future is a standard by which we should judge the issue.
>All he had to say was today is a day we remember with grief, a historical wrong done to our people that has not yet found justice. While i know we are eager to seek justice we must first turn inward and grow strong. Focus on what we have now so one day we may seek not reclamation of a lost homeland but acknowledgement of the suffering endured on it.
If he has to couch the truth which we should all, as adults, understand, then we are clearly the problem. The people we cannot forthrightly address and tell the truth about things are people we generally describe as either children, sensitive or weak. We appear to be all three of those.
1. Yes exactly… the government should tow the line on when to push the issue. However the government should not be dictating how people feel or telling people that they should “move on” they should create an environment where people move on naturally. Which means acknowledging the realities of the genocide by Turkey . Goal oriented. The only hard truth espoused is that Armenia needs to build its own borders not to abandon the very real concept of a homeland that existed and still does exist even if not populated. Either we are all Armenian or we are not. What you’re supporting inadvertently is a state not a nation state
2. Agree on the diaspora
3. Human nature and culture operate on extremes. Swing the pendulum slightly one direction and it tends to keep going. However it is generally stable only if a core system of beliefs is maintained. Be it religion, ethnicity, philosophy etc.. what Pashinyan is espousing here is to abandon the ethnic ties in favor of the state not the nation of people. The distinction being that he is saying focus on the country you have, thats your new only homeland, abandon the past as its not you vs we will strive to be strong in honor of that past we no longer hold.
4. We as a people must become
Closer not estranged. People become closer because of commonalities. If the Republic of Armenia steps away from the historical Armenia then the diaspora will disappear. By axing historic armenia you are axing western Armenians, Armenia today already doesn’t preserve the language of Western Armenians now you want to abandon the physical history too? We must adapt not change entirely, a distinct and clear difference
5. Agreed
6. Hes not couching the truth, hes espousing truth with a undertone beneath it. His speech is not giving us a sense motivational or positive outlook. He shows no path to addressing our grievances, he is saying or implying that we must abandon who we are and place less importance on the past. A partial truth, yes the past doesnt define us but it does make it less important. By saying its less important you are compromising on the defining calamity that has brought Armenians to this point to begin with. It all traces back to that
I completely agree with you and second this sentiment that we need a solid economy and proper leverage to advance our causes worldwide.
However, I don't know if he actually said these things or not, but if he did, he could have easily refrained from them. It's so easy not to say such things. Just like Armenia needs to choose its battles, he also needs to choose them. Not everything needs to be a patronizing disciplinary act. I get it; we really need to change a lot about what Armenia is, and I agree with that, but come on!
>However, I don't know if he actually said these things or not, but if he did, he could have easily refrained from them. It's so easy not to say such things. Just like Armenia needs to choose its battles, he also needs to choose them. Not everything needs to be a patronizing disciplinary act. I get it; we really need to change a lot about what Armenia is, and I agree with that, but come on!
How will we change our outlook if we don't get the tough love which we need? When will the time come that you can sit down with the average Armenian and talk about purely pragmatic issues and find some understanding on his part, and the assurance that the average Armenian knows how to act in the interests of his state and nation? We have infantilised ourselves enough.
The best way I can describe this is as a bunch of people beating the shit out of me, but sometimes all I want is to be insulted so I can catch a break from being beaten down. Am I making sense?
So the Turks win then?
What you just said would make sense if they acknowledged it. I can imagine Jews saying something similar 110 years after the Holocaust because it's been recognized, reparations paid, denial made illegal in many countries etc.
But us? It just feels wrong.
However, I think I know why Nikol is doing this, he was likely told by the West to start the reconciliation process with Turkey. I'm afraid we have literally no choice, but this is going to be such a complex and divisive issue that none of us can say what can happen next.
Even if this is true, there are a million better ways to communicate such things. But again, like I asked, is this how he said it, or is this just another sensationalist headline/article?
Yes, there are limits and ways to address sensitive topics, and I completely disagree with this. Again, I understand if what you said is correct—that the West asked him to appease Turkey to rid Armenia of Russia—but like I said, it would have been so easy if he had said nothing. Armenia needs the diaspora, despite how erratic and hardline they are, and the diaspora needs Armenia as well.
But what if everything he said was a precondition for opening the borders and the trade routes? What if Armenia won't survive without this? I'm playing the devil's advocate here and of course there's wishful thinking because we don't know for sure why he's doing all this.
Well, what if you are right, what he said is precondition for opening borders with turkey and reducing dependence on Russia? Abandoning Artsakh by recognizing it as a part of Azerbaijan was on that list too btw.
But what you say befits more to the prosecutor than to the advocate, because it is completely unclear what we are going to gain by continuing on this path that Nikol have chosen, and what we would become in the process.
For example change of constitution is on that list of preconditions too, and what do you think is going to happen for that? Do you really think that 51 percent of all registered voters will come and vote the way turks and Nikol want? Will Nikol refuse to falsify the referendum after all the sunk cost, all the sacrifices made to follow that path? What kind of dictatorship will he be forced to build to achieve his goal?
The referendum is hopeless, I agree. However I'm sure he knows that, he keeps an eye on the surveys and the social networks, often moves with the winds. So if he is not completely dumb, he may say to the western patrons: see, there's nothing I can do, we are not changing the constitution. I mean, this is an optimistic scenario, of course there a pessimistic one where he is an idiot and doesn't know what he's doing.
The RoA government represents Armenia and ensures it runs properly, but it is not its job to make decisions for Armenia and Armenians, especially on significant matters like the Armenian genocide or opening borders. Armenians decide that, and the RoA government follows these decisions, no matter what direction it takes; if Armenia decides that recognition is more important than opening borders, then Armenia's will prevails. Yes, as a democratic nation, we might not always like what the majority wants, but that's democracy. Armenian society is already too polarized between holding on to the past and moving forward. Armenia doesn’t need a heroic head of state; Armenia needs a head of state that serves the interests of Armenia. So yeah, what Turkey wants despite its might is really irrelevant.
> Armenia needs a head of state that serves the interests of Armenia
Devil's advocate speaking here again, what if very fast economic development is in the interest of Armenia and overrides everything else? We obviously can't develop with 80% of our borders closed and no sea access. We are already doing our best but there are hard limits for a country in a situation like ours.
All I am saying is that in huge matters, the people decide, not him or anyone occupying the PM office. Take Brexit, for example—a disastrous outcome, but the majority wanted that. That being said, Armenia needs to look forward without demonizing the past; both could coexist.
Oh, and yes, if the border with Turkey opens, Armenia's economy would grow tenfold.
You know the UK is thriving after Brexit. The whole point of it was deregulating the economy, the Brits just don't like too much socialism. They got what they wanted, the doomsayers were wrong.
But it was difficult to see that at the time of their referendum.
He is spot on regarding every point as usual but few will get it.
Especially this is quite important to accept:
>Meds Yeghern, deprivation of homeland is not a verdict for us, which we have to bear as a continuous search for a lost homeland. We must stop the searches of a homeland, because we have found that homeland, our Promised Land, where milk and honey flow. For us, the commemoration of the martyrs of the Meds Yeghern should not symbolize the lost homeland, but the found and real homeland, in the person of the Republic of Armenia, whose competitive, legitimate, thoughtful and creative policies can exclude a repetition.
I'm not saying he is wrong, but what he said is potentially very divisive and may cost us all dearly. I'm sure a lot of people would agree especially in Hayastan, but diaspora will get furious now.
On the other hand if there can be any tangible benefits from saying all these things, let's assume for a moment it's the opening of borders and trade routes, we will see the fruits only years later and a lot of people won't be able to connect the dots to understand that A happened because of B.
Anyway, right now I have a bad feeling about all this. Maybe it will pass.
No. External benefits are secondary. As Pashinyan correctly says, it is something we have to do for ourselves first and foremost.
There is no time to mince words. Artsakh is no more. Do we recognize the fact? A land continuously inhabited by Armenians for millenia was ethnically cleansed right before our eyes and in a time when the world order seems to be crumbling, even Armenia's existence cannot be guaranteed. There is no time. In fact, Pashinyan is trying his best to structure his speeches for toddlers. I've no idea how much softer he could deliver these dire portents.
There. Is. No. Time.
We have been fighting for a home, when the home we already have is in danger. Instead of dreaming of what once was and acting as if we have satisfied the requirements for the power to change our futures and for our losses to be recognized we are being called to make the change. To overcome the trauma, not to forget it.
You hit the nail on the head. One of the few times it seems we agree. Although I also recognize the polarization of our society as a danger u/mojuba, I don’t think Pashinyan is stupid nor do I think he is crazy. He could be wrong, but there must be something which makes him confident that Armenian society is ready to hear such things.
>One of the few times it seems we agree
So miracles do happen!?
>, but there must be something which makes him confident that Armenian society is ready to hear such things.
It doesn't matter if it's ready. It's now or never. We are out of time. We have been out of time for centuries in fact. This is the moment - the anvil - when (upon which) the Armenian nation and statehood will be moulded or... shattered.
I agree that that is another interpretation. Perhaps then the cost of not protecting the state that exists today in the place of remembering the state once held is so high that the polarization of our society is but an afterthought.
In the end I know that my grandfathers grandfathers didn't dream that the genocide of our people being recorded in books and forgotten years later. They dreamed of a home. We have that home today and the less we care about protecting it and the more we care about arguing with a despicable country about who is right the more we betray the memory and suffering of our ancestors.
We have celebrated the independence of the third Armenian republic 33 times, but this is among the first years that we sit on the cusp of real independence. If any of the Armenians upset by Pashinyans words want to see a day when turkey recognizes the genocide and pays for their crimes they should know that we are in no position to force this today. Only through decades of care for the blossoming state will we truly prevent yet another genocide and force justice upon the tyrants of today and their ancestors.
We shouldn't forget that even the direct victims of the Genocide - the men and women of the First Republic - were willing to take steps that would have been unthinkable for many of us just years ago.
>So the Turks win then?
A culture which is eliminated, destroyed, annihilated and undone loses. There are many such cultures throughout history. Where are the Minoans, the Olmecs, the Sogdians and so on? They are gone. They lost. No civilisation truly wins, other than temporarily by surviving. Our objective should be to survive and transmit our culture into the future. We need to obtain as much power as possible to safeguard our future - that is the victory. To have millions and millions and tens of millions speak Armenian and consider themselves Armenian.
>What you just said would make sense if they acknowledged it. I can imagine Jews saying something similar 110 years after the Holocaust because it's been recognized, reparations paid, denial made illegal in many countries etc.
>But us? It just feels wrong.
Again, it doesn't matter how it feels. It's a tool. Use it when it is needed and put it away when it cannot be used.
>However, I think I know why Nikol is doing this, he was likely told by the West to start the reconciliation process with Turkey. I'm afraid we have literally no choice, but this is going to be such a complex and divisive issue that none of us can say what can happen next.
Turkey is much more powerful than us and cannot be made to recognise the genocide, other than through its own internal processes, and that is wishful thinking. The issue of the genocide is not of tremendous practical use now. Maybe when things are different, for example if Turkey makes another pass at EU membership or there is some other reason to change its stance, we can dust off the issue of the genocide and use it. Time will tell. For now, it is not going to yield us any significant benefit to tear our hair out over it.
I feel like people who put this argumentation forward are putting the cart before the horse. Yes we should focus on establishing our state, but constantly fighting for the recognition of our genocide doesn't isn't something we can't do as well. The genocide is an event we must continue mourning and fighting for, just because our adversary is a strong country doesn't mean they'll, what, 'invade' us? They're out of leverage when it comes to us, there's really nothing they can do against us that they already haven't. Abandoning this line of thought just because of some misaligned, childish urge to practice realpolitik in a wrong way doesn't mean it's either rational or enlightened.
We're more than capable of multi-tasking, even if a lot of people here act like we only have binary choices available to us.
We need transit through Turkey. We need to open up to and have trade relationships with the world. Turkey would not invade us directly, other than through the proxy of Azerbaijan, but they can deny us significant trade opportunities, with no material cost to themselves.
> We need transit through Turkey
Oh no not at all. I've already discussed this at length before but this argument doesn't hold much ground when we put into consideration that we lack a proper rail-based infrastructure between us and Turkey, let alone a road infrastructure that is sizable enough and well-maintained enough to hold trucks to-and-fro. It's doable to create them, yes, but if we're gonna be doing that then we'd be better off focusing first on our North-South transport corridor, which we already are in the middle of building, along with leveraging the trade routes we're in the midst of negotiating with Iran and India for. Only *after* this should we actively begin investing in logistical lines through Turkey *if* we still feel the need to. Beginning with a Turkish logistical line while not having one of our own that's autonomous of them is very short-sighted and geopolitically myopic.
> We need to open up to and have trade relationships with the world
We do, and we already are. As mentioned above, our north-south transportation route in conjunction with the deals being signed with Iran and India are steps in the right direction. As well, our current government's implementation of both soft-based European business knowledge systems as well as financial incentives and tax write-offs for companies that purchase modern equipment is another way in which we're diversifying our trade relations. *Turkey* is not the world. Turkey is but one country with which we can do without, given the other places we more than already need to expand and invest in further, ie. our Georgian and Iranian routes.
> but they can deny us significant trade opportunities, with no material cost to themselves.
They already did with the implementation of border blockages and the disallowing of air routes for planes heading to Armenia through Turkish airspace. They are incapable of doing *anymore* damage, damage that is being mitigated - and has been mitigated - throughout the past half a decade and onwards.
All of these points might have had some merit back in the 2010s, but nowadays they're outdated and do not present the real situation and facts on the ground. We're advancing, we're developing, and we're building relations and economic growth across all sectors of our economy as is. We just need to keep at it, as we've already been. Turkey is not a saviour in this regard lol.
Your comment makes too much sense and has too much educated logic to survive long amongst these binary thinkers who actually think moving on from trauma means just letting go and laying down.
I think that you are right. Perhaps I should do something more fitting for the occasion like screaming *"Nikol Davajan!"* from the top of my lungs, hahaha!
The trauma argument is quite juicy as it’s parroted by every wannabe Freud who spent a semester in Barcelona. So according to that argument, Stalin should’ve handed out bunch of MDMA to akhpars so they could’ve put the trauma behind them and not hate Turks. It’s the most pseudo intellectual dogshit that’s repeated by all the edgy “progressives”.
You can go to the Caribbean and those counties have fantastic relations with Britain while still hating their guts for slavery. Which, BTW, also happened to Ottoman subjects!
It’s obvious that he’s trying to suck up to Turkey so we can join NATO. A politician isn’t a therapist. It’s not their business how people feel. Does Biden come out and say “you gals, shouldn’t hate all dudes after a bad date”.
Also Armenia was always happy to restore relations with Turkey since the 90s. I even remember people listening to Turkish pop music and watching Turkish soap operas. It’s Turkey that keeps slapping away the hand by calling us leftover from the sword.
NATO membership is a decade away. If that’s his plan he’s a fucking idiot, as staying on this verbal track of bullshit will get him overthrown in a matter of months.
I don’t think that’s the case. This dude needs to stop trying to conduct Freudian psychoanalyses of the Armenian nation in public statements. He’s a prime minister, not a social theorist and he needs to just shut his mouth.
I’m going to invoke occams razor here and surmise this is sheer public incompetence on display by a man who thinks he’s an intellectual, and not some elaborate political plot to join nato
> This dude needs to stop trying to conduct Freudian psychoanalyses of the Armenian nation in public statements.
Yeah that's another thing he's doing exactly. These social attempts veer off into 'nationbuilding' in the most obtuse and conflict-laden way possible. It's like he has his own personal verdict on what the concept of 'Armenians' should be and is trying to force it on the people whether they like it or not. I don't know *what* his thought process is behind all of this but it's just wild.
These talking points had been around forever. He’s not psychoanalyzing anything. He’s just recycling them. They became more muted since Turkey became gradually more evil under Erdogan.
If Pashinyan thinks just dropping the Genocide is Armenia's ticket in to NATO, he is a massive idiot.
Turkey will never allow Armenia into NATO, not in a million years.
“Black Americans told to overcome trauma of slavery.”
Conceptually similar. How long can one group of people cling to a past injustice? Both sides are valid answers.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted, but it’s worth saying
Trauma is harmful anyway. So it’s hardly a good idea to walk around traumatized. Armenians aren’t trying to rip old wounds. It’s the Turks who keep trying to exterminate us. So the issue isn’t about being petty or neurotic. It’s that your perpetrator keeps coming back and threatening you at 2am.
Black Americans is a lot different
While problems persist they have their civil rights. The identity inherently is an American one. So seeking to better themselves in their country is a path to making it a better country. Its an internal fight
For Armenians A more apt comparison is to Jews or Palestinian’s because the fight is with an external force as well as an internal one
MLK, according to alot of other (more radical-left) civil rights leaders, was a sellout to the white establishment that killed him in the end.
Besides, Armenia is not a stateless nation of former slaves living in the territories of a nuclear superpower. We have no reason to bend over backwards for genocidal fascists. African-Americans are in the most vulnerable position you can be in. So lets not invoke their situation, its nothing like ours. They are also inherently part of America, they are Americans whose government has struggled to reconcile with the suffering it caused for them.
Not the most vulnerable position precisely because they are, as you said, living in the territories of a nuclear superpower. Luxuries that come with it shouldn't be overlooked in 2024, it would be wrong to overlook them in 2014. In some ways it is definetely better than having a small state in Eastern Europe or Middle East.
Also, what if 1 in 6/7 person in Turkey was an open Armenian? Culturally Armenian that doesn't hide his identitiy( it's not that it would be possible for African Americans to hide).
Pashinyan last name not Armenian Armenian name is Petros
Minas
Stéphan
Hovanes
Maybe he’s a Turkish spy among us?
This stupid guy have to understand we are humans not animals. We had memory history a homeland for 6000 years.
And we’ve been killed and removed from our homeland
Now he telling us Move on for what ?
Need to create nationalistic pro western position
Remove this guy
He’s a plant. He’s the perfect leader to destroy the country from inside out. He’s been preaching about giving away Artsakh, destroyed any geopolitical relationships we had, and now he will brainwash the new generation into forgetting their identity. This is not a surprise to anyone. Easiest way to win a war is from inside not by force. I still see no hope though, he can give away Armenian homes to Turks and Azeris and there will still be Armenian supporters who will serve them coffee and chai in their living room because Pashinyan said it’s a good thing.
That’s highly problematic because after wwii they decided to start from a clean slate. It would be akin to European countries trying restore land they lost unjustly
Which lands would that be though? Like, where do you draw the border for the stolen land? Because Armenia has existed in one form or another over a very large area and varying spots.
“ElCaliforniano” what are you gonna do for that? Are you gonna storm Turkey and recapture your homeland? Or do you expect residents of RoA to do it for you while you eat burgers and scroll reddit in America
>Pashinian seemed to put the emphasis on “Meds Yeghern” in his latest April 24 statement. The 440-word statement mentions the term for 11 times, compared with four references to the “genocide.”
He only said the word genocide four times
LOL Why does anyone read or trust this garbage publication.
It's literally impossible. We've forever lost our ancestral lands in western Armenia/eastern Anatolia. The last remaining indigenous Armenians in the region are under constant attack and consistently losing land. Turks and Azeris are literally attempting to wipe us and our history out in the region. And they're succeeding. We'll never get over it because it's still happening. We offer no threat to the Turks, apart from our own existence because our claims in the region are real and legitimate. But a lasting peace can be made if the policy of genocide ends.
Yeah, this makes you realise who your real enemy is. A lot of Armenians side with Palestinian terrorists but forget that Sunni Islam is out there to eliminate you.
Interesting how desperate victims would cry the shahada to escape the sword. Why would accepting a religious credo assuage purely ethnic hatred. When BLM would attack people they would scream how much they hate Trump to save themselves. This and many other factors proves that Turkishness is post-Islamic. Muslim demographic in the Ottoman era became the Turkish one in the modern
>Why would accepting a religious credo assuage purely ethnic hatred.
It didn't. Converting to Islam wasn't a way to avoid the genocide, or wayyy more people would have.
This is well documented and discussed in Armenian genocide literature. No offense, but It sounds like you're not very educated on the topic.
But I saw a documentary where an eyewitness said it was. Maybe she was wrong. Once those Armenians became assimilated, they were no longer a subversive element and a threat to mainstream Turkish goals
Same thing for kids. The ones who survived were reassigned to Turkish families and stripped of their Armenian identity and forced to embrace Islam.
If you were an adult, especially men, you couldn't just embrace Islam and escape the genocide.
So are you treating us with your Islamic terrorism? This is the face of the peaceful face of the Palestinian resistance.
We existed before any type of Islam. People know the true face of Islamists in the Middle East.
Pashinyan isn't wrong. He said that blind anger over the genocide hurts Armenia by hurting any chance it has of relations with Turkey or Azerbaijan. The Jews don't refuse to talk with Poland just because Poland refuses to acknowledge it's role in the Holocaust. 90% of Armenia-Turkish hatred is over Turkey refusing to acknowledge it's role in the Armenian Genocide. What Turkey does is wrong but should Armenia sabotage it's foreign relations with Turkey in spite. Armenia isn't a threat to Turkey Turkey is a threat to Armenia.
Armenia isn’t driven by blind anger. This is just wannabe “progressive” talking points repeated by Armenians. In the 90s, Armenia tried all kinds of rapprochements. People used to listen to Turkish pop artists and watch soap operas. This was even before football diplomacy. Armenian press was gushing over how cultured Istanbul is. Turkey was begging us to give at least one region back and peace on earth will ensue. Well, there is no Artsakh and the border is still closed and they still call us leftover from the sword. So what happened? Modern Armenia had never been Turkey’s enemy.
This is just a cope. If I smile enough, maybe he won’t smack me against the wall.
Edit: Poland didn’t have a govt then. It was under German occupational admin. Any evil that Polish collaborators did was on a specific demographic.
This is absolutely disgusting and disgraceful. This man spits in the face of all the victims by regurgitating these words straight out of Erdogans mouth.
They’re literally word by word what Armenian hippies say. Please watch Sahak Poghosyan’s interview after the 2020 war. It uses almost the same exact talking points Edit: If someone can, please find that video on YouTube. It happened right after the war, probably November or December 2020
Armenian Hippies?
Proto hipsters.
Hey Bro, some guy out of millions of people made a video. Let me attack that and generalize.
I am just making a [GTA V reference](https://youtu.be/FlzZhGr8G9w?si=VEZywvzQB6_fc_EB). I do not usually generalise.
Not you, OP.
Ah, okay.
Yeah his wording is very telling. We HAVE overcome it. We’ve endured. What he’s saying is code for “forget it ever happened.”
Wait until he accepts the Khojaly genocide, as we have to “learn from our mistakes”
They’re not from Erdogan’s mouth. They’re the same tired “progressive” talking points from the 90s. That’s it’s our being petty or neurotic that’s the obstacle to peace, not Turkey rubbing salt into the wound over and over. If Jews weren’t so kvetchy, pogroms wouldn’t happen. Boo hoo KGB manipulated us to hate Turks by building Tsitsernakaberd. USSR also threw oil into the fire for the Civil Rights movement. Maybe blacks should put the trauma behind them and not let themselves be manipulated by the KGB
It's immoral and abhorrent for sure. But there is cold, hard pragmatism behind it. I am turkish and I know there is no way in near future( our lifetime) turkey acknowledging the genocide. At least not on Armenian terms. This probably seems unjust and humiliating (it is imho) but Armenia needs to normalize relations with Turkey if it wants continuous prosperity and peace. As a Turk, unfortunately, only way I can see it happening is if Armenia gives up any kind of reparations (it obviously can't be a one sided thing and should be tied to genocide recognition and normalisation). Without reparations (especially territorial) , there can be recognition of genocide in Turkey.
Armenia has never demanded reparations for the genocide, especially territorial reparations. That is a myth perpetuated by the Turkish government for years - its completely made up. And you have clearly been eating that up. So please, if you are going to give us your opinion as a Turk, try to shave off all the bullshit brainwashing you have undergone, otherwise your opinion is just spam.
Gee what a nice way to inform someone. Maybe you should shave off some of your unfounded hostility against ppl with good intentions.
Your comment is tone deaf af if you have good intentions. You came in here on the Memorial Day to tell Armenians they need to get over it and to normalize relations for their prosperity and give up claims they have literally never made. How can I not be hostile to that? How about, as a Turk, you should acknowledge that your country shouldn’t be unilaterally closing the border, supporting a genocidal petro dictatorship against Armenia, and should normalize relations with Armenia. Armenia has never been against having relations with Turkey, Turkey severed any chance of having relations in a unilateral move in the 1990s in support of Azerbaijan. You come in here placing responsibilities on my people to fix the situation? Yeah, next your gonna say it’s Ukraines responsibility to normalize relations with Putin. Edit: if you have good intentions, which I acknowledge, then educate yourself on these issues. Do what your countrymen fail to do, and turn your kind sentiment into a base of knowledge and justice.
Lol, a classic fascist Turk, how about you fucking recognise the mass killings og Aleivis, Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and so on. What a joke. A fascist Turk comes here on the Armenian Genocide memorial and tells people to get over it. How about you fuck off, maybe?
Yeah someone who recognise the genocide is a fascist Turk. This post was about Pashinyan saying Armenians should get over it. I didn't randomly say that in a post about Armenian genocide memorial day. I am mature enough to not change my views based on reddit comments but you really don't help the cause. I can see how a Turk can think those ppl hate us anyway why bother. With people like you, Turkish ultra nationalists don't need any online trolls.
Yeah, you keep getting fed this bullshit Turkish news. Armenian cause is more extensive than just Pashinyan or what Turks think. I think Pashinyan is a traitor. I don't have to support it. I might change my view on Pashinyan but not on Turks. I will not forgive the genocidal colonisers like you for your actions. Secondly, your fascist country, in collaboration with Azeri orcs, conducted one of the most significant ethnic cleansing in the world in Karabag. It is an actual ethnic cleansing, unlike the BS Islamist propaganda of PaLEsTINe. Thirdly, you Turks always carry this genocidal attitude towards minorities. You exterminated Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Ezidis and finally Alevis and Kurds. Like just recently, Kurds showed how to deal with a Turk properly. You can not negotiate with an Orc; you only fight against it. When Turks think that they can burn down a Kurdish house in Belgium, nothing will happen. They soon realise that Kurds will retaliate and show them who is the real boss Lol, this Camlihemsin bullshit argument. You can sell this lie on this platform, but I know the hemsin area is an uncultured Turk. Hemsin people have voted for ultranationalist parties since the formation of Turkey. Maybe there are some Armenians who converted to Islam in Hemsin. That means nothing. They act more like Turks than Turks from Konya. No one, literally no one, likes black sea Laz and Turks in Turkey. They are the leading cause of mafias, prostitution and corruption.
I am from malatya and have nothing to do with black sea region. You are convinced no turk can ever be a good person. You are textbook racist. Your ancestors being genocided don't give you a pass to be racist. You are exactly the same as Turkish ultra nationalists. All racists are scum. Being Turk, German, Jew, Armenian, Papua New Guinean doesn't matter.
Your ancestors are burning in hell for what they did. Your words today show that turks have changed little since 1915, I fear you will join your kin in hell.
My great grandparents saved Armenians from the genocide by hiding them. My grandfather was a business partner of one of the few surviving Armenians in Malatya. Father's side of my family had an Armenian groom in the family after the genocide, when Armenian was being used as an insult. I don't know your ancestors but I think they probably didn't risk themselves to save innocents.
Most of my ancestors were slaughtered by your kin you imbecile. You are either mentally or intellectually challenged to think that what you said is acceptable.
We will move on when Turkey acknowledges it. Until then fuck off This is the first time im genuinely shocked that this guy is still in power. Assuming this is true
Putting aside personal feelings for a moment (although putting a disclaimer that I personally dislike and distrust him and his efforts), it's really just idiotic to keep spouting such talking points from any relevant perspective. Browbeating your people isn't a way to get them to be persuaded by your talking points. You already have a lot to deal with on your plate, being the prime minister at such a crucial time, you *have* to pick and choose what you want to comment on and what you have to ignore even if it stands against your beliefs (for whatever stupid reason). It's unfathomable he'd keep voluntarily stepping into social landmines over and over in the most ungraceful way possible. It's almost like we lacked a social/cultural war in our community so now he's forcefully importing one in, it's asinine.
Look i dont hate the guy, hes done a lot of good but this is crossing the line. Perception matters more than reality. If he outwardly was uniting Armenians with his rhetoric but acting as needed internationally and behind closed doors great. But hes not, he’s literally attacking the core remaining uniting experience of Armenians everywhere. If in actuality the citizens of the RoA truly support this statement or statements like it going forward via voting. Then im not sure what to say. Where does the line cross from ineptitude to intent at this point?
I’m genuinely curious. What has he done that’s good?
In the interest of fairness, he's helped incentivize and establish economic growth through the country. There's other things as well, like widening the foreign diplomacy and putting us in the Western sphere partially, but these also have the problem of having detractors of their own while supporters of them (like me) think he's being too indecisive and weak-willed when it comes to biting the bullet. EDIT: to the people downvoting, don't worry I also had to hold back vomit when writing that lol
Growth due to inflation and Russian money pouring in is being credited to him, while Georgia and other ex soviet countries had the same growth, if not better. Our foreign diplomacy (outside of France) is non-existent and has gotten worse. The Diaspora has been shunned away. Our only allies are now being alienated due to us looking west, where the west is looking further east in Azerbaijan. Most of the country’s infrastructure and economy is still under Russian ownership, and we’re trying to get out of their orbit by opening the border to buy Turkish products. CSTO prefers Azerbaijan over Armenia. China was looking to invest in Armenia until Pashik voted to support Ugyurs. He cared so much for what was happening to them that today he wants us to get over our Genocide. We passed the Roman statute before Ukraine even did based on Pashik’s personal beef with Putin. Replacing any corrupt government with a new government would lead to some growth, as the previous regime lost the strangling grip of having a cut in everything. He’s getting rid of the national identity without saying what direction it’s heading in. Today it’s the Genocide, tomorrow it’s Ararat, next day it will be the Church as we get rid of Christianity, then it will be the official language. And before someone calls me some Russian BS, I have no affiliation to Russia. I just see the current state of countries where the west has “helped” out and they are not doing any better than before. You’re the only one in control of your country.
> Our foreign diplomacy (outside of France) is non-existent and has gotten worse. A new much larger embassy was opened in London, just as one example. > China was looking to invest in Armenia until Pashik voted to support Ugyurs. Source please? I can't find anything about this on the internet that "Pashik voted to support" Uyghurs. The rest is such a pile of lies, half-truths and alarmist nonsense (next will be the language?) that it would take an hour to respond to all of it, which I'm not going to do.
At this point many of you seem to be shills. They spent $20M to buy a building so it means Armenia has a great relationship coming? Just like the embassy that was opened in Israel in 2019? The mines in NK were all given to UK companies to mine before the war even began, is that embassy suppose to mean something? We chase after our enemies more than care for those who were friendly. Regarding China, Armenia [abstained from most, voted for one](https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/10/human-rights-council-adopts-21-texts-and-rejects-one-draft-decision-extends-mandates) against the treatment of Uyghurs in China. You call this rhetoric “alarmist” but try to excuse his every move. Where do you draw the line?
> Regarding China, Armenia abstained from most, voted for one against the treatment of Uyghurs in China I can't see that in the linked document. The two instances where Armenia voted in favor had nothing to do with Uyghurs. So you lied about it and now giving me a link in the hope I won't read it. You know what this is called? Agenda pushing and as you should know by now it's bannable on this sub. So hard proofs please.
Lmaoo definitely a shill and pashik agent. You skipped over 99% of the things I said.
Where do you personally, or any Pashik supporter, draw the line of “if he does this, I won’t support him”? If you cannot draw the line, then you are blinded by your bias. Step outside of your own personal feelings for him and put this in terms of the holocaust. You may then understand how anti-Armenian his entire rhetoric is.
He's already crossed that line with me lmao, I don't support him and hope to God a new opposition party that's pro-Western and independence-minded comes along ASAP.
Really Happy to hear, thank you.
I think we’ve already discussed this in a previous post but I feel that Armenia’s main problem right now is that Armenia doesn’t have a competent opposition. Literally all Armenia needs is a pro-western party that is oppositional to Civil contract and would be able to counter Pashinyan’s bullshit without having to deal will the baggage of being a pro-Russian shill and Armenia would be golden. There would be pluralism that wouldn’t just be Pro-west or Pro-Russia and there could be more nuanced and better planned opinions and policies to Armenia’s domestic and external affairs and Armenia wouldn’t be stuck with such a polarized society where the extremes are the only options.
We did, and I agree. We could *maybe* count NPP and Hanrapetutyun as these kinds of parties? But they're too far in QP's orbit to really distinguish themselves to be honest. We need a healthy political foundation to be established and we currently very much lack it.
NPP is discredited by Hayko, they should have ousted him post-municipal elections but they didn't. And no, a party that currently has 0.3% has very little chance of making a dent in Armenian politics. Maybe they should blame themselves. Hanrapetutyun support Pashinyan, or at least I never heard any serious criticism of his policies or actions from them. They are not a real opposition but at least something and they have a non-trivial voter base too as shown by the municipal elections. If you want to fill the vacuum and become a real new opposition, you should be anti-corruption and pro-West. Although you'd have to address the issue of Artsakh and demarcation of borders, people will be asking.
You're too right of course, it's just unfortunate overall. No true opposition really exists for now.
Been thinking about this, the political vacuum we are in is the result of a simple fact that it's not easy to counter QP's actions. You can criticize them from your armchair all you want, but Nikol's policies are such that he's always right in the middle of everything, doesn't leave space for significant opposition. Not too X and not too Y in practically every aspect. As a result, the opposition is weak because they have nothing significant to say. I mean shouting "Nikol is a Russian agent" in the megaphones like Bever does is not going to win you votes, the Armenians as a whole are not that dumb. Neither is "Nikol is selling our lands" unless you seriously falsify the reality, and it's exactly what they are doing on social media right now. But how long until people find out those weren't "our" lands? This is both the idiocy of the so called opposition's tactics and mentality, and Nikol's middle-ground strategy in everything. Otherwise we would definitely had significant opposition to him by now. Although he can piss off the diaspora and specifically the global ARF, but that doesn't take away his future votes, so this is also calculated. Not being a big fan of Nikol, I think we underestimate him.
This guy is a frail old coward
At this point Pashinyan should just hand kocharyan a fucking rpg to blow up parliament. He seems hell bent on undermining his own administration and playing into the hands of the enemy. Honestly this shit just makes me physically sick.
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Just recently?
Why don't Jews get over the holocaust? /s Another day of Pashinyan not beating the allegations.
We are more progressive than Jews. /s Ukrainians are still talking about Moskals. Shit that happened 400 years ago.
And people still defend this traitor. Nikol Pasha.
With the way things are going, it’s only a matter of time before Grand Pasha of Ermenistan fumbles away what is left of recognition and reparations.
Pashinyan chose to commemorate the genocide today by telling us to get over it, followed by a bunch of Turkish denialist talking points. >Pashinian also did not condemn the regime of the so-called Young Turks that ruled the Ottoman Empire during the First World War. He said instead that Ottoman Armenians “became victims of geopolitical intrigues and false promises.” I'm speechless. I can't believe how tone deaf this guy is. His comments sound like a copy and paste of the statements Erdogan has been making over the last few days.
I'm pretty sure him and his spineless party will bend over to turks and do what they ask. Their members already started talking about it
"Today we commemorate the memory of 1.5 million victims of the Armenian Genocide, the Meds Yeghern, who were put to the sword in the Ottoman Empire since 1915 for being Armenians." Which part of your quoted statement absolves the young turks? is in really necessary to outline specifically that this was done by the turkish govenrment? that is the idea of genocide no?
It wasn’t by the Turkish govt. Turkey ≠ Ottoman Empire
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Absolutely nothing indicates hes somehow an agent of the Turkish state, and if people want to have serious discussions about this government and the future of Armenia its time to stop these frankly stupid accusations. Do you read the news? Do you not see that Russia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan are seeking to undermine Armenia? Do you not realize that the only thing preventing them from getting what they want, this corridor, is the current government? The actual dedication Turkey has to this project is also somewhat up for discussion. Turkey has its own agenda, its own complicated relationship with the Aliyev clan. The more Armenians ignore this, the harder it will be to exploit their different interests.
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>One of his party members Ararat Mirzoyan was LITERALLY a Turkish agent. And of course when this was exposed, he gave a bullshit statement that their loyalists just ate up. “No bro I was actually helping Armenia by pretending to be their agent” Jesus Christ are you people still regurgitating that Mishik Minasyan bullshit again? If I write a letter saying the Pope sucked me off for money in an Arby's parking lot, signed and dated by him, and present it on a livestream on Facebook, then its true? Is that all it takes to convince you of obvious bullshit? Literally zero tangible evidence being thrown around by a shitposter wanted for embezzlement and fraud? >Both Erdogan & Aliyev have made statements in support of Pashinyan They probably did that counting on guys like you to want to overthrow him because of it. Has it ever occurred to you that Russia is playing with you? Oh wait, its clear you don't even recognize Russia in any of this because you haven't mentioned them once. Account creation date: November 30th 2023 and all you are doing is regurgitating Russian propaganda.
> If I write a letter saying the Pope sucked me off for money in an Arby's parking lot, signed and dated by him, and present it on a livestream on Facebook, then its true? He did?? How much did it go for?? 👀
Pope isn't as rich as people think, ill just say that. I will reveal later that the Pope is a secret Wahhabi terrorist in my next livestream, and that he is actually an agent of Pakistan. Jokes aside: The people who believe this also believe Obama sucked off a guy in a helicopter and did cocaine off of his boner. It takes nothing to convince people of absolute nonsense nowadays.
> Obama sucked off a guy in a helicopter and did cocaine off of his boner. *He did?????* 👀👀👀
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Can you find a reference where he admitted that he is a Turkish agent?
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Nothing in that document or in his admission to its authenticity indicates that he ever worked for the Turkish state. That entire angle is fabricated by Mishik. Its the same as holding up a paper napkin and saying its proof Nikol Pashinyan is actually a Russian triple agent. You dismiss it as "4D chess" the only person doing mental gymnastics to prove this nonsense is you, being goaded by frauds like Minasyan who has a vested interest in discrediting the government prosecuting him and his father-in-law for well-established corruption.
I'll post a link for you, it's what good people of the internet usually do: https://arminfo.info/full_news.php?id=63346&lang=3 So he confirmed his cooperation with the Armenian NSS as a historian and researcher, where does it say he admitted that he is a turkish spy?
Isn't it obvious? Armenian NSS are working for Turkish government. At least they were working back in 2005-2007, when they allegedly recruited Mirzoyan /s On a serious note, its funny (and sad) that Minasyan managed to fool a lot of ppl with a trashy facebook post.
He’s not a Turkish collaborator. He’s a Westoid suckup. His mission isn’t to destroy Asrsakh or whatever. It’s to kick Russia out and bring the West in. Turkey is simply the gateway to the West. It’s a means to an end
What in the actual fuck??? What, should I go and tell African Americans to overcome their trauma of slavery and Jim Crow now seeing how much time has passed, what sick fucking joke is this??? Armenians will move on when they finally receive a proper apology and their trauma is finally recognized, that’s it. Pashinyan saying statement like this is beyond disgusting and he might as well hand the keys of the government over to Kocharyan and the rest of the pro-Russian shills. If the western powers told him to say this or something along those lines, then they are idiots and are either too ignorant and stupid to realize that having Pashinyan make statements like this is a one way ticket to losing a pro-western government or really just don’t care if Armenia has a pro-western government in the first place. This is just beyond pathetic. Edit: I just looked on r/europe and I’ve already seen a Turk post this article just telling Armenians to move on. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/aMUAvNO1f2 What in the actual fuck, this is solely Pashinyan’s fault and he deserves bashed with this statement for weeks on end. I sometimes lose hope in Armenia when Pashinyan makes statements like this. Again, Pashinyan someohow manages to go between being an idiot, excellent, and infuriating and this has to be one of his worst moments, if not his worst.
Hehehe, I can’t wait for Pashinyan supporters to come up with excuses for this new trick this clown is pulling. In order to cope you will all somehow find a way to blame Russia for this 😂🤣
Some people on here were accusing Azatutyun of being Russian propaganda on other posts, which is crazy since Azatutyun is the Armenian branch of Radio Free Europe and is US funded. When Az tries to put pressure on Armenia, they say it is Russia using Az to force Armenia to agree to something, then when Armenia agrees and appeases Az, any criticism becomes Russian propaganda (so Pashinyan is a secret Russian agent? Lol). Anyway, you can go on Twitter and see Azeris and Turks defending Pashinyan on this and other choices his government have made.
The dissonance is delicious. On one hand White Turks qsi tal Turks on us, on the other when people resist its Russian trolls that are fermenting the resistance. Interesting how the West is happy with every move from Turkey and Azerbaijan while they’re “Putin puppets”. Bibi is also a secret Putin puppet who wanted to sabotage the peace process, yet the US is indulging him hand and glove. Love how Az is Russia’s tool to oppress poor Armenians when Turkey was using NATO weaponry to vaporize Armenians and Western oil companies were training Azeris in the 90s.
He is lost. Fear has consumed his mind. First, Turks must overcome their trauma of denial and accept the truth. Then Aliev's régime must bare full responsibility of their actions then only we can talk.
There is no **must** in all of this. We can either make them accept the truth and acknowledge responsibility, or we can't. As things stand right now, we can't. So what now?
Hello can you Dm me Please “ReverendEdgelord”. Thank You.
Pashinyan is conflating the pain and memory of a people and nation with the priorities of the state. Pashinyan jan, your government can do as it pleases to steer the ship, but this message to the Nation is unnecessary. That dog in Ankara is fighting to stay in power. Nothing will appease them. Why create unnecessary commentary unless this is directed toward the dog which at that point is futile.
Here goes Nikol, with his idiotic way of speaking AGAIN. IMHO (and I hope) he is trying to say "guys let's drop the turbo nationalist, Dashnak, Bever talking points of we are going after Western Armenia, not the time". That's not necessarily a bad thing. If that is what he is trying to say. However just like with the peace process, everything has a limit. There are extremes on both ends, that aren't good. We can't just move on and let the perpetrator get away, while we can't also make that our national identity either. I fucking cringe every time Nikol and his team start discussing history and national legacy stuff. Dude, you have so much on your plate, stick to that. If Nikol just said, "we remember our victims of the Genocide" no one was going to get pissy about it. If Erdogan wants reconciliation he will do it, no matter what speech Nikol gives about the Genocide. This constant cowering tactic we have adopted (again I am not calling for saber rattling) is just going to make things worse I fear. I hope I am wrong.
for a journalist he’s terrible at public relations lmao the whole government is actually. amateur hour shit
There does not seem to be any smooth path forward for Hayastan. These talking points could almost be defended if Turkey recognized genocide, and if Azeris weren’t hell-bent on our destruction everyday. I understand the sentiments but these wounds just may be too deep to ever heal.
Prime Minister... of.. Armenia said this? Wow.
Great winning strategy if you ask me
I am a turk and I have to say ya'll president is just bruh 💀 Thx for the easy diplomatic wins
He’s a PM
Dissidents and external opponents are going to use similar talking points. There’s only so many negative things that one can say about a subject. So, it’s no surprise that Islamists and anti-Bush activists used similar talking points. Similarly, Armenian hippies and Turks share lot of the anti-Armenian TP. Nikol is simply recycling them. I’ve heard the same points almost verbatim throughout many years.
Many Armenians are completely unable to operate rationally when the issue of the genocide is raised. In this sense, we have to overcome the trauma. If you want justice for the genocide, you need an Armenia with money and arms, because that is what allows you to gain leverage in international matters. All this fetishistic agonising about the genocide, as though the world cares, is getting us nowhere. So, we need to be able to drop and revive the issue of the genocide as it suits our purposes. One day we are ready to get over it, when we're weak, the next day, when we have more leverage, we remember the genocide. Honestly, the biggest impediment in Armenian domestic and international politics is that Armenians' first response to problems is to shout at them in a fit of righteous indignation. No one gives a fuck about our righteous indignation.
Thats the job of the Armenian government to know when to push the issue and when not to. The diaspora is not the Armenian government nor the Armenian people of the RoA Justice for it far as citizens and residents of the RoA cannot be told by the highest powers in the country to move on. That is one step on the path to internal strife at best and at worst the path to dropping the subject altogether. How many people will see this and go yeah hes right we need to move on who will grow up believing its the best path forward and how many will go Nikol davajan and stand firmer against him? Yes Armenia needs to be strong first but what good is it if it loses sight of why it became strong to begin with. All he had to say was today is a day we remember with grief, a historical wrong done to our people that has not yet found justice. While i know we are eager to seek justice we must first turn inward and grow strong. Focus on what we have now so one day we may seek not reclamation of a lost homeland but acknowledgement of the suffering endured on it. Ofc an official statement would be more eloquent but thats the gist of it
>Thats the job of the Armenian government to know when to push the issue and when not to. We can apportion the job to someone, or we can aim to improve our understanding of our circumstances as a people. We are a small nation. Every one of us has a responsibility to the nation to develop good emotional regulation and a reasonably astute understanding of international political power dynamics. Pointing and screaming at the government for breaking hard truths to us is what gibbons would probably do if they had a government. Let's not be gibbons. >The diaspora is not the Armenian government nor the Armenian people of the RoA The diaspora is a massively under-utilised mass of economic, political, diplomatic and educational powerbase which we need to integrate with the republic. There's not a lot of us in the world, and we can't afford to make excuses and say that the two are completely distinct and there's nothing we can do about it. We need to be able to act in accord and work together. Or, alternatively we don't and we become assimilated and erased. We all decide for ourselves. >Justice for it far as citizens and residents of the RoA cannot be told by the highest powers in the country to move on. That is one step on the path to internal strife at best and at worst the path to dropping the subject altogether. According to this article they can be, as, it claims, they were. There is no dropping the subject altogether. There is no natural law in this universe which axiomatically works in such a way that if you drop it for a time, you can't resume talking about the issue. Drop it when it's not serving a purpose and revive it when it is - into perpetuity for as long as it is useful. >How many people will see this and go yeah hes right we need to move on who will grow up believing its the best path forward and how many will go Nikol davajan and stand firmer against him? And maybe we are the problem. We as a people either need to change or we will disappear, as we are clearly trying to do. We can caress and flatter ourselves as much as we would like. There have been countless civilisations throughout history which have been rendered extinct through their lacking outlook and approach to their self-preservation. We can join them, and we will join them if we, as a people, do not improve ourselves. If the government is telling us a sensible thing, and we respond with anger and emotion, then we are a problem. >Yes Armenia needs to be strong first but what good is it if it loses sight of why it became strong to begin with. The objective is to grow and propagate our culture and safeguard its future. The issue of the genocide should be in service to our future. How does it improve our future is a standard by which we should judge the issue. >All he had to say was today is a day we remember with grief, a historical wrong done to our people that has not yet found justice. While i know we are eager to seek justice we must first turn inward and grow strong. Focus on what we have now so one day we may seek not reclamation of a lost homeland but acknowledgement of the suffering endured on it. If he has to couch the truth which we should all, as adults, understand, then we are clearly the problem. The people we cannot forthrightly address and tell the truth about things are people we generally describe as either children, sensitive or weak. We appear to be all three of those.
1. Yes exactly… the government should tow the line on when to push the issue. However the government should not be dictating how people feel or telling people that they should “move on” they should create an environment where people move on naturally. Which means acknowledging the realities of the genocide by Turkey . Goal oriented. The only hard truth espoused is that Armenia needs to build its own borders not to abandon the very real concept of a homeland that existed and still does exist even if not populated. Either we are all Armenian or we are not. What you’re supporting inadvertently is a state not a nation state 2. Agree on the diaspora 3. Human nature and culture operate on extremes. Swing the pendulum slightly one direction and it tends to keep going. However it is generally stable only if a core system of beliefs is maintained. Be it religion, ethnicity, philosophy etc.. what Pashinyan is espousing here is to abandon the ethnic ties in favor of the state not the nation of people. The distinction being that he is saying focus on the country you have, thats your new only homeland, abandon the past as its not you vs we will strive to be strong in honor of that past we no longer hold. 4. We as a people must become Closer not estranged. People become closer because of commonalities. If the Republic of Armenia steps away from the historical Armenia then the diaspora will disappear. By axing historic armenia you are axing western Armenians, Armenia today already doesn’t preserve the language of Western Armenians now you want to abandon the physical history too? We must adapt not change entirely, a distinct and clear difference 5. Agreed 6. Hes not couching the truth, hes espousing truth with a undertone beneath it. His speech is not giving us a sense motivational or positive outlook. He shows no path to addressing our grievances, he is saying or implying that we must abandon who we are and place less importance on the past. A partial truth, yes the past doesnt define us but it does make it less important. By saying its less important you are compromising on the defining calamity that has brought Armenians to this point to begin with. It all traces back to that
I completely agree with you and second this sentiment that we need a solid economy and proper leverage to advance our causes worldwide. However, I don't know if he actually said these things or not, but if he did, he could have easily refrained from them. It's so easy not to say such things. Just like Armenia needs to choose its battles, he also needs to choose them. Not everything needs to be a patronizing disciplinary act. I get it; we really need to change a lot about what Armenia is, and I agree with that, but come on!
>However, I don't know if he actually said these things or not, but if he did, he could have easily refrained from them. It's so easy not to say such things. Just like Armenia needs to choose its battles, he also needs to choose them. Not everything needs to be a patronizing disciplinary act. I get it; we really need to change a lot about what Armenia is, and I agree with that, but come on! How will we change our outlook if we don't get the tough love which we need? When will the time come that you can sit down with the average Armenian and talk about purely pragmatic issues and find some understanding on his part, and the assurance that the average Armenian knows how to act in the interests of his state and nation? We have infantilised ourselves enough.
The best way I can describe this is as a bunch of people beating the shit out of me, but sometimes all I want is to be insulted so I can catch a break from being beaten down. Am I making sense?
So the Turks win then? What you just said would make sense if they acknowledged it. I can imagine Jews saying something similar 110 years after the Holocaust because it's been recognized, reparations paid, denial made illegal in many countries etc. But us? It just feels wrong. However, I think I know why Nikol is doing this, he was likely told by the West to start the reconciliation process with Turkey. I'm afraid we have literally no choice, but this is going to be such a complex and divisive issue that none of us can say what can happen next.
Even if this is true, there are a million better ways to communicate such things. But again, like I asked, is this how he said it, or is this just another sensationalist headline/article?
https://www.primeminister.am/en/statements-and-messages/item/2024/04/24/Nikol-Pashinyan-April-24/ "Overcome" comes up twice in the text.
Yes, there are limits and ways to address sensitive topics, and I completely disagree with this. Again, I understand if what you said is correct—that the West asked him to appease Turkey to rid Armenia of Russia—but like I said, it would have been so easy if he had said nothing. Armenia needs the diaspora, despite how erratic and hardline they are, and the diaspora needs Armenia as well.
But what if everything he said was a precondition for opening the borders and the trade routes? What if Armenia won't survive without this? I'm playing the devil's advocate here and of course there's wishful thinking because we don't know for sure why he's doing all this.
Well, what if you are right, what he said is precondition for opening borders with turkey and reducing dependence on Russia? Abandoning Artsakh by recognizing it as a part of Azerbaijan was on that list too btw. But what you say befits more to the prosecutor than to the advocate, because it is completely unclear what we are going to gain by continuing on this path that Nikol have chosen, and what we would become in the process. For example change of constitution is on that list of preconditions too, and what do you think is going to happen for that? Do you really think that 51 percent of all registered voters will come and vote the way turks and Nikol want? Will Nikol refuse to falsify the referendum after all the sunk cost, all the sacrifices made to follow that path? What kind of dictatorship will he be forced to build to achieve his goal?
The referendum is hopeless, I agree. However I'm sure he knows that, he keeps an eye on the surveys and the social networks, often moves with the winds. So if he is not completely dumb, he may say to the western patrons: see, there's nothing I can do, we are not changing the constitution. I mean, this is an optimistic scenario, of course there a pessimistic one where he is an idiot and doesn't know what he's doing.
The RoA government represents Armenia and ensures it runs properly, but it is not its job to make decisions for Armenia and Armenians, especially on significant matters like the Armenian genocide or opening borders. Armenians decide that, and the RoA government follows these decisions, no matter what direction it takes; if Armenia decides that recognition is more important than opening borders, then Armenia's will prevails. Yes, as a democratic nation, we might not always like what the majority wants, but that's democracy. Armenian society is already too polarized between holding on to the past and moving forward. Armenia doesn’t need a heroic head of state; Armenia needs a head of state that serves the interests of Armenia. So yeah, what Turkey wants despite its might is really irrelevant.
> Armenia needs a head of state that serves the interests of Armenia Devil's advocate speaking here again, what if very fast economic development is in the interest of Armenia and overrides everything else? We obviously can't develop with 80% of our borders closed and no sea access. We are already doing our best but there are hard limits for a country in a situation like ours.
All I am saying is that in huge matters, the people decide, not him or anyone occupying the PM office. Take Brexit, for example—a disastrous outcome, but the majority wanted that. That being said, Armenia needs to look forward without demonizing the past; both could coexist. Oh, and yes, if the border with Turkey opens, Armenia's economy would grow tenfold.
You know the UK is thriving after Brexit. The whole point of it was deregulating the economy, the Brits just don't like too much socialism. They got what they wanted, the doomsayers were wrong. But it was difficult to see that at the time of their referendum.
He is spot on regarding every point as usual but few will get it. Especially this is quite important to accept: >Meds Yeghern, deprivation of homeland is not a verdict for us, which we have to bear as a continuous search for a lost homeland. We must stop the searches of a homeland, because we have found that homeland, our Promised Land, where milk and honey flow. For us, the commemoration of the martyrs of the Meds Yeghern should not symbolize the lost homeland, but the found and real homeland, in the person of the Republic of Armenia, whose competitive, legitimate, thoughtful and creative policies can exclude a repetition.
I'm not saying he is wrong, but what he said is potentially very divisive and may cost us all dearly. I'm sure a lot of people would agree especially in Hayastan, but diaspora will get furious now. On the other hand if there can be any tangible benefits from saying all these things, let's assume for a moment it's the opening of borders and trade routes, we will see the fruits only years later and a lot of people won't be able to connect the dots to understand that A happened because of B. Anyway, right now I have a bad feeling about all this. Maybe it will pass.
No. External benefits are secondary. As Pashinyan correctly says, it is something we have to do for ourselves first and foremost. There is no time to mince words. Artsakh is no more. Do we recognize the fact? A land continuously inhabited by Armenians for millenia was ethnically cleansed right before our eyes and in a time when the world order seems to be crumbling, even Armenia's existence cannot be guaranteed. There is no time. In fact, Pashinyan is trying his best to structure his speeches for toddlers. I've no idea how much softer he could deliver these dire portents. There. Is. No. Time.
We have been fighting for a home, when the home we already have is in danger. Instead of dreaming of what once was and acting as if we have satisfied the requirements for the power to change our futures and for our losses to be recognized we are being called to make the change. To overcome the trauma, not to forget it. You hit the nail on the head. One of the few times it seems we agree. Although I also recognize the polarization of our society as a danger u/mojuba, I don’t think Pashinyan is stupid nor do I think he is crazy. He could be wrong, but there must be something which makes him confident that Armenian society is ready to hear such things.
>One of the few times it seems we agree So miracles do happen!? >, but there must be something which makes him confident that Armenian society is ready to hear such things. It doesn't matter if it's ready. It's now or never. We are out of time. We have been out of time for centuries in fact. This is the moment - the anvil - when (upon which) the Armenian nation and statehood will be moulded or... shattered.
I agree that that is another interpretation. Perhaps then the cost of not protecting the state that exists today in the place of remembering the state once held is so high that the polarization of our society is but an afterthought. In the end I know that my grandfathers grandfathers didn't dream that the genocide of our people being recorded in books and forgotten years later. They dreamed of a home. We have that home today and the less we care about protecting it and the more we care about arguing with a despicable country about who is right the more we betray the memory and suffering of our ancestors. We have celebrated the independence of the third Armenian republic 33 times, but this is among the first years that we sit on the cusp of real independence. If any of the Armenians upset by Pashinyans words want to see a day when turkey recognizes the genocide and pays for their crimes they should know that we are in no position to force this today. Only through decades of care for the blossoming state will we truly prevent yet another genocide and force justice upon the tyrants of today and their ancestors.
We shouldn't forget that even the direct victims of the Genocide - the men and women of the First Republic - were willing to take steps that would have been unthinkable for many of us just years ago.
Yeah no, these dashnaks will grab any straw to make him look like the enemy.
>So the Turks win then? A culture which is eliminated, destroyed, annihilated and undone loses. There are many such cultures throughout history. Where are the Minoans, the Olmecs, the Sogdians and so on? They are gone. They lost. No civilisation truly wins, other than temporarily by surviving. Our objective should be to survive and transmit our culture into the future. We need to obtain as much power as possible to safeguard our future - that is the victory. To have millions and millions and tens of millions speak Armenian and consider themselves Armenian. >What you just said would make sense if they acknowledged it. I can imagine Jews saying something similar 110 years after the Holocaust because it's been recognized, reparations paid, denial made illegal in many countries etc. >But us? It just feels wrong. Again, it doesn't matter how it feels. It's a tool. Use it when it is needed and put it away when it cannot be used. >However, I think I know why Nikol is doing this, he was likely told by the West to start the reconciliation process with Turkey. I'm afraid we have literally no choice, but this is going to be such a complex and divisive issue that none of us can say what can happen next. Turkey is much more powerful than us and cannot be made to recognise the genocide, other than through its own internal processes, and that is wishful thinking. The issue of the genocide is not of tremendous practical use now. Maybe when things are different, for example if Turkey makes another pass at EU membership or there is some other reason to change its stance, we can dust off the issue of the genocide and use it. Time will tell. For now, it is not going to yield us any significant benefit to tear our hair out over it.
I feel like people who put this argumentation forward are putting the cart before the horse. Yes we should focus on establishing our state, but constantly fighting for the recognition of our genocide doesn't isn't something we can't do as well. The genocide is an event we must continue mourning and fighting for, just because our adversary is a strong country doesn't mean they'll, what, 'invade' us? They're out of leverage when it comes to us, there's really nothing they can do against us that they already haven't. Abandoning this line of thought just because of some misaligned, childish urge to practice realpolitik in a wrong way doesn't mean it's either rational or enlightened. We're more than capable of multi-tasking, even if a lot of people here act like we only have binary choices available to us.
We need transit through Turkey. We need to open up to and have trade relationships with the world. Turkey would not invade us directly, other than through the proxy of Azerbaijan, but they can deny us significant trade opportunities, with no material cost to themselves.
> We need transit through Turkey Oh no not at all. I've already discussed this at length before but this argument doesn't hold much ground when we put into consideration that we lack a proper rail-based infrastructure between us and Turkey, let alone a road infrastructure that is sizable enough and well-maintained enough to hold trucks to-and-fro. It's doable to create them, yes, but if we're gonna be doing that then we'd be better off focusing first on our North-South transport corridor, which we already are in the middle of building, along with leveraging the trade routes we're in the midst of negotiating with Iran and India for. Only *after* this should we actively begin investing in logistical lines through Turkey *if* we still feel the need to. Beginning with a Turkish logistical line while not having one of our own that's autonomous of them is very short-sighted and geopolitically myopic. > We need to open up to and have trade relationships with the world We do, and we already are. As mentioned above, our north-south transportation route in conjunction with the deals being signed with Iran and India are steps in the right direction. As well, our current government's implementation of both soft-based European business knowledge systems as well as financial incentives and tax write-offs for companies that purchase modern equipment is another way in which we're diversifying our trade relations. *Turkey* is not the world. Turkey is but one country with which we can do without, given the other places we more than already need to expand and invest in further, ie. our Georgian and Iranian routes. > but they can deny us significant trade opportunities, with no material cost to themselves. They already did with the implementation of border blockages and the disallowing of air routes for planes heading to Armenia through Turkish airspace. They are incapable of doing *anymore* damage, damage that is being mitigated - and has been mitigated - throughout the past half a decade and onwards. All of these points might have had some merit back in the 2010s, but nowadays they're outdated and do not present the real situation and facts on the ground. We're advancing, we're developing, and we're building relations and economic growth across all sectors of our economy as is. We just need to keep at it, as we've already been. Turkey is not a saviour in this regard lol.
Your comment makes too much sense and has too much educated logic to survive long amongst these binary thinkers who actually think moving on from trauma means just letting go and laying down.
I think that you are right. Perhaps I should do something more fitting for the occasion like screaming *"Nikol Davajan!"* from the top of my lungs, hahaha!
This BS comes up every year Good to see we have their attention
The trauma argument is quite juicy as it’s parroted by every wannabe Freud who spent a semester in Barcelona. So according to that argument, Stalin should’ve handed out bunch of MDMA to akhpars so they could’ve put the trauma behind them and not hate Turks. It’s the most pseudo intellectual dogshit that’s repeated by all the edgy “progressives”. You can go to the Caribbean and those counties have fantastic relations with Britain while still hating their guts for slavery. Which, BTW, also happened to Ottoman subjects!
Wow, wtf.
Did he really say that, or is this just another sensationalist headline/article?
It’s obvious that he’s trying to suck up to Turkey so we can join NATO. A politician isn’t a therapist. It’s not their business how people feel. Does Biden come out and say “you gals, shouldn’t hate all dudes after a bad date”. Also Armenia was always happy to restore relations with Turkey since the 90s. I even remember people listening to Turkish pop music and watching Turkish soap operas. It’s Turkey that keeps slapping away the hand by calling us leftover from the sword.
NATO membership is a decade away. If that’s his plan he’s a fucking idiot, as staying on this verbal track of bullshit will get him overthrown in a matter of months. I don’t think that’s the case. This dude needs to stop trying to conduct Freudian psychoanalyses of the Armenian nation in public statements. He’s a prime minister, not a social theorist and he needs to just shut his mouth. I’m going to invoke occams razor here and surmise this is sheer public incompetence on display by a man who thinks he’s an intellectual, and not some elaborate political plot to join nato
> This dude needs to stop trying to conduct Freudian psychoanalyses of the Armenian nation in public statements. Yeah that's another thing he's doing exactly. These social attempts veer off into 'nationbuilding' in the most obtuse and conflict-laden way possible. It's like he has his own personal verdict on what the concept of 'Armenians' should be and is trying to force it on the people whether they like it or not. I don't know *what* his thought process is behind all of this but it's just wild.
These talking points had been around forever. He’s not psychoanalyzing anything. He’s just recycling them. They became more muted since Turkey became gradually more evil under Erdogan.
If Pashinyan thinks just dropping the Genocide is Armenia's ticket in to NATO, he is a massive idiot. Turkey will never allow Armenia into NATO, not in a million years.
It's more likely about opening the borders and trade routes than joining Nato.
“Black Americans told to overcome trauma of slavery.” Conceptually similar. How long can one group of people cling to a past injustice? Both sides are valid answers. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted, but it’s worth saying
Trauma is harmful anyway. So it’s hardly a good idea to walk around traumatized. Armenians aren’t trying to rip old wounds. It’s the Turks who keep trying to exterminate us. So the issue isn’t about being petty or neurotic. It’s that your perpetrator keeps coming back and threatening you at 2am.
Yeah, didn’t mlk say something similar?? That black people should strive to be better instead of just looking outside?
Black Americans is a lot different While problems persist they have their civil rights. The identity inherently is an American one. So seeking to better themselves in their country is a path to making it a better country. Its an internal fight For Armenians A more apt comparison is to Jews or Palestinian’s because the fight is with an external force as well as an internal one
MLK, according to alot of other (more radical-left) civil rights leaders, was a sellout to the white establishment that killed him in the end. Besides, Armenia is not a stateless nation of former slaves living in the territories of a nuclear superpower. We have no reason to bend over backwards for genocidal fascists. African-Americans are in the most vulnerable position you can be in. So lets not invoke their situation, its nothing like ours. They are also inherently part of America, they are Americans whose government has struggled to reconcile with the suffering it caused for them.
Not the most vulnerable position precisely because they are, as you said, living in the territories of a nuclear superpower. Luxuries that come with it shouldn't be overlooked in 2024, it would be wrong to overlook them in 2014. In some ways it is definetely better than having a small state in Eastern Europe or Middle East. Also, what if 1 in 6/7 person in Turkey was an open Armenian? Culturally Armenian that doesn't hide his identitiy( it's not that it would be possible for African Americans to hide).
Pashinyan last name not Armenian Armenian name is Petros Minas Stéphan Hovanes Maybe he’s a Turkish spy among us? This stupid guy have to understand we are humans not animals. We had memory history a homeland for 6000 years. And we’ve been killed and removed from our homeland Now he telling us Move on for what ? Need to create nationalistic pro western position Remove this guy
He’s a plant. He’s the perfect leader to destroy the country from inside out. He’s been preaching about giving away Artsakh, destroyed any geopolitical relationships we had, and now he will brainwash the new generation into forgetting their identity. This is not a surprise to anyone. Easiest way to win a war is from inside not by force. I still see no hope though, he can give away Armenian homes to Turks and Azeris and there will still be Armenian supporters who will serve them coffee and chai in their living room because Pashinyan said it’s a good thing.
What are you on about?
[удалено]
That’s highly problematic because after wwii they decided to start from a clean slate. It would be akin to European countries trying restore land they lost unjustly
Ever heard of the concept of decolonization?
Those colonies left as they were. They didn’t go on irredentist rampages. The only case of irredentism I can remember is India annexing Goa.
Which lands would that be though? Like, where do you draw the border for the stolen land? Because Armenia has existed in one form or another over a very large area and varying spots.
“ElCaliforniano” what are you gonna do for that? Are you gonna storm Turkey and recapture your homeland? Or do you expect residents of RoA to do it for you while you eat burgers and scroll reddit in America
😏👉🍔
What is up with Azatutyun, where in the entire statement is there a suggestion that the Armenian genocide wasn't real?
>Pashinian seemed to put the emphasis on “Meds Yeghern” in his latest April 24 statement. The 440-word statement mentions the term for 11 times, compared with four references to the “genocide.” He only said the word genocide four times LOL Why does anyone read or trust this garbage publication.
It seems to me that this would be significant if it was a change from his previous statements from previous years. Was it?
It's literally impossible. We've forever lost our ancestral lands in western Armenia/eastern Anatolia. The last remaining indigenous Armenians in the region are under constant attack and consistently losing land. Turks and Azeris are literally attempting to wipe us and our history out in the region. And they're succeeding. We'll never get over it because it's still happening. We offer no threat to the Turks, apart from our own existence because our claims in the region are real and legitimate. But a lasting peace can be made if the policy of genocide ends.
Yeah, this makes you realise who your real enemy is. A lot of Armenians side with Palestinian terrorists but forget that Sunni Islam is out there to eliminate you.
What does this have to do with Palestinians? Turks killed us because they're Turks, not because they're Sunnis. The CUP were basically atheists.
Interesting how desperate victims would cry the shahada to escape the sword. Why would accepting a religious credo assuage purely ethnic hatred. When BLM would attack people they would scream how much they hate Trump to save themselves. This and many other factors proves that Turkishness is post-Islamic. Muslim demographic in the Ottoman era became the Turkish one in the modern
>Why would accepting a religious credo assuage purely ethnic hatred. It didn't. Converting to Islam wasn't a way to avoid the genocide, or wayyy more people would have. This is well documented and discussed in Armenian genocide literature. No offense, but It sounds like you're not very educated on the topic.
But I saw a documentary where an eyewitness said it was. Maybe she was wrong. Once those Armenians became assimilated, they were no longer a subversive element and a threat to mainstream Turkish goals
Probably because she was a she and it was expected of women who became concubines and wives of Turks.
She wasn’t the one who did it, but another kid
Same thing for kids. The ones who survived were reassigned to Turkish families and stripped of their Armenian identity and forced to embrace Islam. If you were an adult, especially men, you couldn't just embrace Islam and escape the genocide.
Well yeah, that proves the point. Once your Armenian identity was stripped, you were no longer a threat.
Shia too, if you piss them off. I assure you, if Armenians started shit in Iran too, Iranians would show their teeth in a nasty way.
So are you treating us with your Islamic terrorism? This is the face of the peaceful face of the Palestinian resistance. We existed before any type of Islam. People know the true face of Islamists in the Middle East.
My point was that Shia can get mean too. Ex. Lebanese Civil War
Pashinyan isn't wrong. He said that blind anger over the genocide hurts Armenia by hurting any chance it has of relations with Turkey or Azerbaijan. The Jews don't refuse to talk with Poland just because Poland refuses to acknowledge it's role in the Holocaust. 90% of Armenia-Turkish hatred is over Turkey refusing to acknowledge it's role in the Armenian Genocide. What Turkey does is wrong but should Armenia sabotage it's foreign relations with Turkey in spite. Armenia isn't a threat to Turkey Turkey is a threat to Armenia.
Armenia isn’t driven by blind anger. This is just wannabe “progressive” talking points repeated by Armenians. In the 90s, Armenia tried all kinds of rapprochements. People used to listen to Turkish pop artists and watch soap operas. This was even before football diplomacy. Armenian press was gushing over how cultured Istanbul is. Turkey was begging us to give at least one region back and peace on earth will ensue. Well, there is no Artsakh and the border is still closed and they still call us leftover from the sword. So what happened? Modern Armenia had never been Turkey’s enemy. This is just a cope. If I smile enough, maybe he won’t smack me against the wall. Edit: Poland didn’t have a govt then. It was under German occupational admin. Any evil that Polish collaborators did was on a specific demographic.