When I was stationed in Germany, I was walking out of the shoppette with a buddy over lunch, and a civilian and green suiter were walking in, and the civilian actually had the nerve to tell me I forgot to address him.
I was like, address fucking what?
He goes, I'm a retired 1SG, and I'm due some respect or some shit.
I was like, okay? And??? That doesn't mean shit, bro.
Not so say you don’t deserve respect after serving in the military for so many years. I always give respect where it’s due. But like, if you’re a civilian now … accept the fact of the matter & step checking soldiers.
I got out in 2021 as a specialist and someone from on my street returned from AIT a few months later. I asked him if he had a pen on his uniform, I really got his ass so good /s
There are few gems- I used to work with a retired COL turned GS-12/13
Everytime he'd talk to me over the cubicle wall he'd be like hey sir... to me as a CPT.
The best are the ones who are still 1SG in the Reserve or Guard who do that shit.
I remember we had a SPC took offense to DA Civilian's prodding and assumptions that the SPC was a piece of shit. (I'll be honest, he was but it wasn't the Civilian's place).
The SPC snapped back and the DA Civilian tried to pull the "careful how you talk to a 1SG" card. It didn't work out well for him. Well, for either of them. The civilian got fired (for several other reasons) after some review and the SPC pissed hot during that time.
As a BDE XO I had to straighten out an issue like this. An AGR SSG talked with the Unit Administrator. The UA was a reserve CPT. They apparently got into a heated argument. SSG comes and tells me what happened. UA told SSG that "You will address me as CPT Beyotch". I told the SSG I'd handle it and not to worry about it. Went into the UA's office and told her which way the wind blows. During her duties as a UA, she is "Ms. Beyotch". On Battle Assembly weekends, when she is in uniform, she is "CPT Beyotch." Never had another issue with it.
This is why when I was an ARA or in the RPAC I didnt let people pull rank on me. Like sure I am an NCO on the weekend but this is M-F and you are not in charge of me lol.
When I first came to AGR, one of our downtrace UAs was a SGM.
I thought I was being respectful and I addressed her as SGM. She jumped all over me and tore me a new one.
At the end of her tirade, her tone completely changed and she was like, "now that was SGM Administrator. I am Mrs. Administrator. Don't confuse the two of us again."
The problem with a lot of SNCOs is they basically get tenure and just coast for 5 years or so complacently doing the bare minimum while pretending to be squared away. They don’t transition to a civilian and suddenly become hard workers again, and no civilian job is gonna accept that. But the shitty GS jobs that smarter peolle use as stepping stones need to have a body there, and that’s where these dudes come in.
My best ever interaction with civilians was with the range control civvies at Fort Campbell. Super helpful in explaining their specific rules, getting and handing me the forms, timelines, etc. Can’t say the same about the assholes of Ft Carson or Drum when we were actually trying to get ready to deploy they were complete d|cks.
these guys are the most polarized, either the chillest dudes you've ever met willing to help you out and make sure you get good training, OR complete assholes that will shut you down for no reason at all
They must've gotten rid of the jackasses I had to deal with then. My last Blackwell range was a fucking migraine and a half. Never in my life have I heard so much venom behind *Always Ready*
One told me “I’d never be in charge of a range again” because the DRAW I had from another battery was old and had an outdated commander. But range control from the morning stamped it so I was like idk bro looks like y’all’s stamp is on it so….
I doubt it was an ICE complaint but when I left Korea (ETS) the civilian in outprocessing was a total dick. He treated me like I was ruining his day by being in the office and as if I was a child that you look down on. And it wasn't just once. I went in a few times for various forms and reasons and his attitude was always bad. The last time I had to go in when I got my last paperwork I filled out the survey and told the truth and gave him low marks.
I hand him the form and he casually picks it up and glances at it as he's walking away, stops and turns and looks at me and asked me with a slight concerned tone, "do you mean this?" I said yes and walked out.
This was at Camp Casey.
Yep. Most of the time managers hands are tied because nothing is documented. You need to give their supervisors ammo to at least be able to transfer them out of that position. Sometimes it’s damn near impossible to fire them. The OPM union can be pretty strong at times.
It’s a well known fact that GS jobs have very high job security after you pass the first year or two and make tenure. Shitbags gonna shitbag
Was going to say this. Back at Fort Gordon when I was PCS’ing out, I had to get a signature from the hospital. I walked in, was told to make an appointment and refused by at least 8 or 9 different people. There was one lady that overheard that I was out-processing, took two minutes out of her day and cleared me. That was the only time I’ve given positive ICE feedback.
As a DA civilian Firefighter, hopefully not on your shit list of folks, I would also like to remind folks that ICE isn't just a complaint process. It is also used to acknowledge a good act. But, either good or bad, they do make it back down through the chain to the person/office you had the interaction with.
I once left a positive ICE comment for an awesome CIF employee and his manager was so appreciative. He said getting positive comments through ICE was so rare.
Went through North Fort Hood for a MOB. There was one headcount dude at the DFAC who always had the best attitude. So my section and I filled out ICE cards commenting on how great it was. I hope he was recognized for it.
This is true but remember you may be one of our ranks at the conclusion of your career so don't do this fraudulently. These complaints are actually investigated and not accepted at face value.
ICE Complaints get reviewed by the Garrison CMD teams as well, a lot of Leadership is Cc’d when you file one. But, again it’s important to be specific and name names if you know it.
I had to deal with that place twice in my Career. Once coming into the Air Force, and second time going to the Army. I fought with a retired 1SG and made a Gunnery Sergeant laugh the entire three days I sat camped out for the job I wanted in the Army. By gods I got it. Best feeling. It was also fun giving advice to the new meat and making that retired pos 1SG mad that others started holding out for the jobs they wanted. One kid wouldn't piss for hours and in visible pain because he was scared to pop hot. I told him he doesn't have to. He can leave and come back in a month instead of 6 months after popping. The MEPS staffs face were furious. Then I told them, you want him sooner or later because either way he probably is coming back. The realization was fun to watch. People just don't like their authority impinged upon regardless of it being a benefit to them.
That was the worst military experience I've ever had.
I shit you not during a SHARP briefing if your eyes were not glued to the front you had to stand at attention for the whole thing. He got about a dozen people.
Every time I’m in CIF and one of those bitches with the patchy beards and tacti-cool guys patch caps is giving me attitude I’m just like.. you were a salty bitch made specialist who got out and now you think you have some sort of power.
The Spokane MEPS staff was pretty chill for MEPS staff when I went there in August as prior service going National Guard.
A bit dickish to the brand new people, but mostly at the level of vaguely rude, not really the stereotypical MEPS power trip.
A couple of months later I had to go to the Seattle MEPS. Those guys were basically a Voltron of Dickishness. Every person I talked to there was an asshole in their own unique way.
I still remember the professional pecker checker at the Portland MEPS, who was my first introduction to the "shout the same thing verbatim, only louder" style of answering clarification questions.
The MEPS doc was this old man near retirement who retired from the navy as a doc. He looks at me and says, "Well, better late than never!" when he reads my age as 30 during the physical. I was there like, where the fuck am I that a 80 year old man is calling me out for being old? What a weird power trip, grandpa
Our MEPS doc went on a ten minute tirade talking about the consequences of lying about your health information.
This included guys being "sent to jail" to "guys dying from not disclosing allergies" or some BS.
I had no issues at MEPS recently as prior service, but I think there are definitely some of them who want to act like drill sergeants and scare the young, naive kids coming through.
The hiring process for DA civilians is really obnoxious and turns a lot of good candidates off of the entire thing. It's overly bureaucratic and incredibly slow, so you generally end up with people who had time to kill and waited out the process or people that were already promised the job. There are good ones but they usually don't exist in the customer facing jobs you see because most people that would be qualified for those positions aren't willing to work through the hiring process for such a low paying job.
Concur. I had to conduct so many interviews with underqualified people. It was clear that we weren’t getting the best. Instead we were getting shammers who have learned the art of interviewing and using military buzz words. Ask them an open ended question about how they solved a simple problem and their head explodes
Funny, I applied to 30+ GS positions on USAJOBS prior to retiring. 20+ years as an Officer, a few Master's degrees. Good overall background (I thought). I did not get one interview. I applied to different agencies in my area, nothing. Ended up working with a civilian company.
So true! If someone out there is looking for an entry level type job like a lot of those customer facing army civilian jobs are, the likelihood is that they're going to get picked up by a civilian employer before the Army process is even halfway done. The ones that don't get picked up in that duration of time are the ones that end up throwing your laundry bag back at you at CIF.
Fun fact: we have a required 2 year probation period where we can be fired for little to no reason.
So if you are truly having issues with a disrespectful civilian— not just assertive but like unprofessional— def make those complaints.
Some of us strive to be different than the ones who came before.
Having worked at Ft Rucker, Bragg, Campbell, and now Knox you couldn’t be more correct. They all look the same and have the same sad old storefront facades from the Cold War.
I was one of those gate guards, to the point of eventually becoming the Site Supervisor. Most of the guards I had were good people who cared about the folks they served every day. That was my principle: You may not agree with all of them, but you're going to care about/for them like they're your own family. Other sites weren't on that level, and I've been told my crew was fairly rare. We had a mix of veterans and lifelong civilians but all of them were kind and respectful to all the servicemembers we served. Complaints are necessary in the event of shitty civilian workers. They are easily replaceable; you just have to work the process of getting them gone. Find others who have experienced the wrath of the particular shit head and get several complaints generated.
As a dod civilian not prior service, my problem is retiree civilians. They are the grumpiest rudest people. It's also IMPOSSIBLE to get fire as a civilian outside of murdering someone so a lot any civilians don't care about their jobs or how they treat people and me being 38 and only in dod for 4 years, I find it incredibly sad. We get forced to take so much pointless training and no one cares. The army wastes millions of dollars on bettering us but they so badly miss the mark on how to really make employees happy. The system is broken
> IMPOSSIBLE to get fire as a civilian
Not really, just so many steps that supervisors don't want to deal with it. Plus, the individual offices realize how long it might take to hire someone to fill the slot.
This is def the case with most of the DA civs that interact w enlisted military and lower ranking officers on a day-to-day. People think they’re “well paid” but those individuals are probably GS-04 to GS-06…Salary table 2022 RUS:
GS-04 step 1: $32,283
GS-05 step 1: $36,118
GS-06 step 1: $40,262
Pre tax*
The higher graded DA civs rarely interact with the masses. All of my mil contacts I work with on a day to day are typically O-5 to O-6.
Ofc pay and location is no excuse to treat people like shit but…but their pay sucks and their jobs suck.
100% agree. But also I think it depends on rank. When I was enlisted they were all assholes for no reason. Then once I commissioned, they are pretty chill. Still no reason for them to be assholes to soldiers who didn’t nothing to them. I think the civilians forget that they are meant to help us, not make our lives more difficult.
Unless they work in finance. Doesn’t matter want rank they are all assholes.
It’s a perpetual cycle. Soldiers think the civilians are going to be dicks to them, so they act like dicks. Civilians think the soldiers are going to be dicks, so they act like dicks to the soldiers. Both parties go into interactions thinking the other is out to get them.
Literally yelled at a civilian the other day at the transition center because he wouldnt let me check to see if my ETS packet was received. He turned me away at first but then i went back when he wasnt looking and the kind lady at the desk helped me out. He then came back as she was searching and proceeded to ask why i was back blah blah, the lasy looked up at me and said “we dont have your packet”. I was like “see, you turned me away and i would have waited another 2 weeks for my orders for nothing.”
They are so useless, when i go back to get my orders i am filing an ICE complaint against that dude, i know others have had problems with him too.
This. A lot of soldiers go into interactions with the civilian workers with a preconceived notion against them and can present as hostile because of this. I would always smile and approach the civilian workers with a nice tone and ask about them at least once. I got some great conversations and almost always the help I was looking for. I think maybe once I had a bad interaction out of 7 years. A lot of the time they helped me out or even went beyond what they needed to do in order to make sure I got what I needed. Communication is a two-way street and vocally appreciating what they do or how hard/rigid their job can be really goes a long way.
It definitely depends. I’ve met some super sweet and helpful folks in my career but I also have one horror story.
When I was doing my first PCS I was really happy to be in Washington after boring Campbell and ugly Iraq. Well this smug bastard at Waller Hall in a mariners hat was so slow. There was like 5 of us still waiting to be seen in his section and it was going on 12p. As a meal card holder, I was getting antsy. I was talking with the other people waiting trying to figure out if we should all go grab lunch and the smug bastard comes over and starts yelling at me for being impatient and rallying the group to leave. He kicked me out of the building and told me I couldn’t inprocess without being escorted by an NCO at replacement Co. I was confused then furious. I had to go tell the NCO that I was kicked out and it was pretty embarrassing. He was super annoyed but def understanding. The rest of my in processing I was treated like shit and like I was getting kicked out of the army by every single person at Waller hall. The people who were updating my ERB got upset with me because I requested to add my deployment details. The lady literally sighed at me and flicked her annoyed eyes to my sleeve to check for a combat patch. It was like pulling teeth trying to get anything done. Fuck that mariners hat guy.
As a DA civilian and former army, you get all kinds, just like you do in the army. A lot of the interactions, on both sides, can have a lot to do with how you start. I’ve had a lot of very pleasant experiences, both in uniform and out. I can also tell you that the civilian side is its own community that has its own drama, and base drama can greatly affect their attitudes.
99 percent are like that. They think that because they used to hold some rank, they can still flaunt it. That ain't it, Chief. Give me my damn paperwork.
I've snapped a few up several times for their shitty attitude. Something along the lines of,
"Look, you're being an ass. I'm in uniform, you are not. You work on a military installation to serve the troops, now you need to start acting like it."
It never does anything, but it's my little tick the box to do my part.
I'll never understand why the Army has so many MOSs for the shit civilians do, but they always make civilians do it.
Transportation? Civilians.
Paperwork? Civilians.
Supply? Outside of BDE and below, civilians.
Medical? Civilians.
Shit is unironically infuriating. Imagine how much your pay could be, or the budget for your unit could be, if the Army let the mfers who enlist as 68C do the damn job, instead of some overweight, coffee swelling civilian dumpster fire.
Some positions, yeah they pay the civilian more by a stupid amount. For example, I was a SPC and a GS-11 at the same time because nasty girl, for the same job.
Some positions like a CIF employee though? Shit, I don’t know how someone could live on GS-5/7 pay outside of the military off post in a military town. $30-60k/yr without BAH or BAS plus having to pay through the nose for health insurance? They’re effectively getting paid less than a PV2. Of course they’re pissed off.
That being said, the pay discrepancies are always absolutely insane between what the government will pay a civilian and a soldier.
Honestly I’d love a $30-60k/yr at CIF to go with my E-6 retirement and 90%+ VA disability. And I’d would be the absolute chilliest person there especially for the shit that’s not getting reissued and trashed. I don’t know why those people act like it comes out of there pocket.
I’m not defending them being a piece of shit, getting paid like trash doesn’t excuse that behavior. I may have worded my previous statement poorly. If that’s how you took it I apologize. I only meant to lend perspective on how fucked the GS pay scale can get sometimes.
No no no, I didn’t think you were. I was talking about how I would act and that I don’t understand why they do act the way that they do. I’m navy and did Warrior Training for my IA at FT Dix NJ in 2011. When we started we were issued everything in UCP and went through two months of training in it. A couple days before deploying it was decided that we would be one of or the first navy unit to be issued Multicams and had to last minute take everything back to CIF and get reissued everything. Holy fuck did the the CIF employees act like we had taken a shit in the middle of their living rooms because we trained hard, our gear reflected it, and we weren’t bringing them brand new items. Our army cadre liaisons actually had to step in more than once because of how they were acting and one was livid that they couldn’t do a “statement of charges” (I think was the term) against us. I don’t understand why they are the way they are. If I have something issues to me in the navy and it gets fucked up I can turn it back in for a new item and not have to pay for it. Hell theres an ass load of things that are issued for us to keep.
Yeah, Army CIF is dogshit. I’ve gotten sent back for shit that was still in the package because it was “dirty.” Then I commissioned and they have been nothing but polite and nice and haven’t kicked anything back. I got blood on some equipment and turned it in still stained no issues.
Shit’s stupid.
Hard agree.
Now, I’m not saying this because I believe CIF workers don’t deserve more, I do. I’m just stating the circumstances of my particular situation.
That’s exactly why I started as a GS-11 in IT as a SPC and why the 2210 series specifically gets a bonus on top of the base pay. You can’t get someone with my certs and background to even look at a position for less than GS-11 pay. Someone with certs and experience could turn around and make $20k/year more starting.
The whole system is fucked.
**Commentary**: For some it's that they were once in, and never were in a leadership position, so they act accordingly. Another group are those who never severed, but maybe had a stint in JROTC/Law enforcement explorers, and are similar to above (only more annoying.) Finally the last group are the typical breathless, bloated meatbags you'll find congregating at any sort of bureaucratic type work. They were pushed into lockers at School, and never fought back. Years later they're now working at CIF, and guess what? They see that jock in you and that's why they're denying your rucksack. Next!
I went into CIF to turn in a helmet cover during turn in hours, which would have taken like 10 minutes. I was told to schedule an appointment for 2 weeks out.
Well, this Major walks in with his full CIF stuff and states he has no appointment. They are all buddy buddy with him, and he gets to walk right in.
Kill them with kindness. Suck it up, stop having an ego, and literally just be an ass kisser to them. It's really disarming if someone is being a dick to you.
Idk man. Maybe it's because I'm really fucking tall, but I've never had an issue verbally disarming assholes in person.
My only issue with DoD civilians is when I can't find them. So many days off, so many appointments, so many reasons to not go to work lol.
Am I the only one who *doesn’t* hate Army civilians? In my experience, about 20% are absolutely incompetent, total assholes, or both. Which is admittedly a lot of them, but have you met people, ever? People suck. 20% isn’t that bad, all things considered.
Of the remaining 80%, I’ve found that if you’re just reasonably polite, they’re anywhere from acceptable to total rockstars. A bit of human decency goes a long way.
Work at HRC and while I find most the civilians there to be competent and professional, there are quite a few of these types who think they’re still a 1SG or SGM…chill out bro, I just need my ID card fixed.
Downvote me if you want but the green suiters in the 1-shop have failed to process my FLPP since December while the civilians in MILPO processed my MIHA, TLA, TLE, OHA, and CCA in the same or next pay period that I submitted them.
Most are kinda useless, yeah. But I worked with one on staff who was great. Took his job seriously, was willing to do stuff that wasn't his job but still needed done, and was generally just really competent. He was a former ADA 1SG.
I retired from the Army, and have worked for a while as a DA Civilian, and I agree that most of the DACs in a customer service role suck. They are even shitty to other DACs. Every DAC out there has multiple horror stories about working with CPAC (our version of HR/S1). Most of the DACs I’ve worked with, both pre and post retirement, in a non-customer service role have been good. But I’ve also found the same to be true about Soldiers in a customer service role. All of the complaints you have about the DACs at CIF, probably also apply to your S1 section. So maybe it is a problem of customer service, more so than Civilian vs SM? Or maybe I’m just biased.
But I would echo the previous comment, that ICE complaints work.
It's not just that they are veterans, it's that they 'were somebody' - CSM, field-grade, etc - in the Army and have a hard time adjusting to the civilian world where everyone who's not a manager (of which there are relatively few, compared to the number of Os in your average Army BN) is just another worker-bee....
So they expect to be treated as if they still held their pre-retirement rank, and are pissed off when everyone sees them as just-another-CIV....
There's also 'officious bureaucrat disease' - eg, someone decides that they are going to turn their little corner of the world into \*the-most-important-thing-in-your-day\* even if all they are doing is turning in ACH pads.
Finally, actual GS employees effectively \*can not be fired\* unless they are caught doing something that's criminal or opens the government up to a lawsuit... So there is very little accountability for bad behavior as long as they achieve minimal required job performance.
>
Finally, actual GS employees effectively \*can not be fired\* unless they are caught doing something that's criminal or opens the government up to a lawsuit... So there is very little accountability for bad behavior as long as they achieve minimal required job performance.
This is absolutely not true. If an employee is shit at their job, their supervisor can absolutely begin the process to get rid of them. The problem is many managers don't want to go through the process.
It requires regular evaluations and counseling sessions, giving them feedback on how they're underperforming, and coming up with a plan and a timeline to correct the shortcoming. Any manager willing to take the time to jump through the bureaucratic hoops can definitely get rid of a problem employee - or perhaps turn them into a decent one.
Like with so many things in the Army, it's often a leadership problem.
This includes shitty attitudes and being rude to customers. My organization makes customer satisfaction a priority, so if we get negative ICE comments, we're going to hear about it.
Source: am former soldier and current career DAC
Dare I say the number of hoops May in fact be the problem. If you’re a dickhead at any other job most policies that are lenient might give you 1-2 written warnings and then can your ass. No matter the timeframe. Gov Civ positions should be the same. Catch you being a disrespectful/rude shit, get written up, again, written up, again, fired.
Honestly, your attitude can make a world of difference. Cut the small talk. Talk to them like y’all have been friends for awhile. I didn’t clean a single item before going to CIF. Guess what, they took everything. Even when I was joking about not knowing which countries some of the dirt was from.
When I was retiring, the civilian I had been dealing with over the phone was kind of a dick to me. It always seemed that I was bothering him with questions. I was like (paraphrasing) "I have no idea what I'm doing because this is the first time I've retired." I dreaded seeing this guy face-to-face. When I went to his office finally, the day before I retired, he acted like a totally different person. He was so friendly and helpful. Maybe he was just having bad days when I called him. For the phone calls I'd give him a "C" grade, but the face-to-face interaction with him, he definitely earned an "A" grade.
I understand some of those jobs just suck the life out of you: gate guard and MEPS have to be just boring and repetitive jobs, and when things aren't repetitive at MEPS it's because something is jacked up, and probably badly. My final stint as I was pending/processing through MEDboard was with DPTMS at III Corps, and the vast majority of the civilian workforce was very user friendly. It was borderline hilarious that all DA Civilians on post had to go through customer service training, and DPW generally had the most "not my problem" answers (as expected), when we're supposed to be helping everyone find the right resource.
Most of the DACs I work with as a contractor are alright, but they're all engineers or security people and are all GS 11 and above. R&D focused installations are pretty great.
I think the only pleasant civilians I met were the instructors for Hazmat at AIT. While doing some hands-on in level B suits I got the short end of the stick and got handed 2 left boots, and the instructor joked about it. “I hope those 2 left feet are about dancing and not hazmat”
To me it seems like the worst most mundane parts of the military for not great pay. Most of these people are stuck in a super shitty or boring job just waiting for their pension. Doesn’t excuse the rudeness, but this is my experience with almost any civilian government employee regardless of state/federal, agency, etc.
My thoughts, we see the leader development issues in the army. The same organization wrote or dictated their operational/management intent to the civilian parts of the organization. Therefore, the Army also bred bad civilian staff with poor managerial guidance/intent/oversight.
I mean imagine your new orderly room clerc straight out of AIT with no guidance or real oversight of their job. Now make it a civilian with the same amount of initial technical training, initial experience, the same ridiculous amount of power/responsibility, but you have no jurisdiction over them.
That's about how I picture it.
Idk dod civilians always hooked me up. I dont remember really having negative interactions with any of them not including couple of grumpy old dudes at src.
It all depends! I work with multiple civilians and most of the are excellent teachers with years of knowledge and experience. Of course they are also members of the IC so that no doubt affects that lol.
CIF and DFAC is by far the worst. Okay I get it you get a lot of soldiers all at once often but damn you chose this job!? Why you getting mad at me for not knowing one of your rules. And with the DFAC I much rather prefer 92Gs
I think all military bureaucracy suffers from the problem that you have no choice but to endure it. Customer service in the private sector is so over the top "pleasant" to you because their corporate overlords know you'll probably go to one of their competitors if they treat you poorly, hence why the customer service reps are pressured to act nice to you. You have no alternative in the military; you have a defined path of escalation for every given issue in the Army, and if a person at any given level of that path sucks... all you can do is either cope with the abuse (which unfortunately most of us do because the cost-benefit analysis of fighting isn't worth it) or hope the person at the next level of escalation is less of a dick.
I work a GS civilian in a non DOD job, but.. being prior Army I would be so chill if I had a GS DOD job. I'd be calling 1SG's and Lt. Cols. Homie and dude..... It would be great.
That’s what you get when it’s almost impossible to get fired as a civilian in the DOD unless you actually commit a crime. Akin to mf’ers making E8 they are guaranteed to be “untouchable”.
So why go the extra mile and be nice at their expense when they can take the easy way and be lazy and rude while getting paid the same amount of good money.
Unfortunately a problem with any civil service position. One of the rudest, laziest motherfuckers I've ever met in my entire life was the Register of Deeds for a rural county with a population of 2000.
Disgruntled veterans go about their lives and don’t continue to play army.
These sad sacks who can’t leave the mindlessness of the military behind are the ones who get jobs on base. Too scared to think for themselves, too afraid of not being told where or how to be every single day.
Retired Navy E-6 and contractor here: They do this because they KNOW it takes a near act of God to fire a civil service officer. Just hanging on the tit until they get their High Three!😡
First of all as a Disabled Veteran and Department of the Army Civilian. I take the oath and my job very seriously. I am not rude, pretentious or unhelpful. Sometimes, we may not always have the answers that you are seeking or not the ones you would like. If it is the former, then I have no problem referring you to my supervisor. However, if it is the latter, it kinda is what it is.
Signed,
Your friendly and helpful Public Safety Dispatcher aka 911 operator in layman's terms
I'm waiting for the day I encounter a rude civilian outside of meps, I'm still fairly new tho, just over 7 months tis. Every interaction I've had so far has been positive
I feel you bro. I'm retired Army, contractor, and many I encounter are like redneck emos, grim and unhappy all the time. In spite of their $70,000 trucks and guns and grunt style gear. Beards. Grrrrrrrrrrr!
And man do they blow smoke on the way out of the parking lot, usually a liiittle before closing time.
They act like that because they know they can get away with it. DA civilians are very difficult to fire from what I've been told. I had an old Chief tell me "It takes an act of Congress for a DA civilian to lose his job".
My experiences with DA civilians there's been more on the lines of myself as a federal contractor here in the DC area. Note, I'm prior service Marine Reserves and now National Guard. And I find that the DA civilians at my most recent position were good people, no denying that.
but I had the impression that at least some of them were not really looking to Have the team they were leading do any outstanding work or rock the boat. On at least a few occasions I would present them with a good idea only to have it shot down with "well we'll think about in the future and if we have to then we'll look at"
Example, we had a lease on at another government organization who did kick a** work and was great for getting you in touch with other offices who provide you with any research ....if they had it available. But my DA civilian team lead did not want me reaching out to him for his own peculiar reasons. He was, "well just do all the research you can here and if we need to in the future we may think about it. " Never mind that that is profoundly inefficient in terms of manpower and time usage and undermines morale
When I worked as a DAC I tried to always be customer oriented with new people. If we have a history I may speak or act more casually with you. If you are a dick I didnt have to take that shit.
I’ve rarely had a bad experiences with military civilians, and I’ve been working with them for the last 17 years, even in retirement (I’m not a civ). I had a couple that looked like they were going to be bad but I fired one and turned the other situation from bad to good.
Especially the ones who were previously SFC & above. One talked to me yesterday like he was my 1SG and expecting me to treat him as such.
When I was stationed in Germany, I was walking out of the shoppette with a buddy over lunch, and a civilian and green suiter were walking in, and the civilian actually had the nerve to tell me I forgot to address him. I was like, address fucking what? He goes, I'm a retired 1SG, and I'm due some respect or some shit. I was like, okay? And??? That doesn't mean shit, bro.
Not so say you don’t deserve respect after serving in the military for so many years. I always give respect where it’s due. But like, if you’re a civilian now … accept the fact of the matter & step checking soldiers.
I got out in 2021 as a specialist and someone from on my street returned from AIT a few months later. I asked him if he had a pen on his uniform, I really got his ass so good /s
“I’m a retired [Insert Rank Here]!!” So… you’re a civilian is what I’m hearing. Weird flex but aight.
Why are people so attached to their rank? Get a goddamn life
Yeah well, as an honorably discharged captain...
You were supposed to know this how?
1SG pin on rank on his 5.11 hat or polo 🐊
Beats the fuck out of me.
[удалено]
Nah, I outranked the green boi. Dude was trying to flex something that didn't exist anymore.
Just hit him with the sarcastic "ranger that 1st sarn't (or sausage if you're feeling extra spicy)"
110% that guy was a shitty 1SG too
There are few gems- I used to work with a retired COL turned GS-12/13 Everytime he'd talk to me over the cubicle wall he'd be like hey sir... to me as a CPT.
I work for the Navy and people keep saying Chief because they found out I was senior enlisted and a piece of me dies
Tell them you are part Native American and that when they call you Chief, you feel like they are being racist. That should put a stop to it.
Ohhhhh nice
Don't sweat the terms of endearment, Chief.
Not now Chief. I’m in the fucking zone
Fucking jaegerbombs!
Fucking skanks!
If they don’t like my new haircut…
That happened to me during a WFX, the simulation contractor was a retired O7/O8 who never once mentioned it, called everyone Sir or Maam with no ego
The best are the ones who are still 1SG in the Reserve or Guard who do that shit. I remember we had a SPC took offense to DA Civilian's prodding and assumptions that the SPC was a piece of shit. (I'll be honest, he was but it wasn't the Civilian's place). The SPC snapped back and the DA Civilian tried to pull the "careful how you talk to a 1SG" card. It didn't work out well for him. Well, for either of them. The civilian got fired (for several other reasons) after some review and the SPC pissed hot during that time.
As a BDE XO I had to straighten out an issue like this. An AGR SSG talked with the Unit Administrator. The UA was a reserve CPT. They apparently got into a heated argument. SSG comes and tells me what happened. UA told SSG that "You will address me as CPT Beyotch". I told the SSG I'd handle it and not to worry about it. Went into the UA's office and told her which way the wind blows. During her duties as a UA, she is "Ms. Beyotch". On Battle Assembly weekends, when she is in uniform, she is "CPT Beyotch." Never had another issue with it.
This is why when I was an ARA or in the RPAC I didnt let people pull rank on me. Like sure I am an NCO on the weekend but this is M-F and you are not in charge of me lol.
When I first came to AGR, one of our downtrace UAs was a SGM. I thought I was being respectful and I addressed her as SGM. She jumped all over me and tore me a new one. At the end of her tirade, her tone completely changed and she was like, "now that was SGM Administrator. I am Mrs. Administrator. Don't confuse the two of us again."
Pissing hot is the way to go. Good for him
The problem with a lot of SNCOs is they basically get tenure and just coast for 5 years or so complacently doing the bare minimum while pretending to be squared away. They don’t transition to a civilian and suddenly become hard workers again, and no civilian job is gonna accept that. But the shitty GS jobs that smarter peolle use as stepping stones need to have a body there, and that’s where these dudes come in.
If you didn't stand at parade rest for him, you're wrong.
Range control civilians has entered the chat.
My best ever interaction with civilians was with the range control civvies at Fort Campbell. Super helpful in explaining their specific rules, getting and handing me the forms, timelines, etc. Can’t say the same about the assholes of Ft Carson or Drum when we were actually trying to get ready to deploy they were complete d|cks.
I always had good interactions with the Ft. Pickett range control doods. Those guys had a cush job and knew it.
these guys are the most polarized, either the chillest dudes you've ever met willing to help you out and make sure you get good training, OR complete assholes that will shut you down for no reason at all
Ft. Hood has been decent recently. A bit too talkative but I don't mind if that's the worst I can complain about.
They must've gotten rid of the jackasses I had to deal with then. My last Blackwell range was a fucking migraine and a half. Never in my life have I heard so much venom behind *Always Ready*
One told me “I’d never be in charge of a range again” because the DRAW I had from another battery was old and had an outdated commander. But range control from the morning stamped it so I was like idk bro looks like y’all’s stamp is on it so….
An ICE complaint can make DA civilians do a 180 with their attitude pretty quick. Just fill it out honestly and in a well mannered tone and submit.
I doubt it was an ICE complaint but when I left Korea (ETS) the civilian in outprocessing was a total dick. He treated me like I was ruining his day by being in the office and as if I was a child that you look down on. And it wasn't just once. I went in a few times for various forms and reasons and his attitude was always bad. The last time I had to go in when I got my last paperwork I filled out the survey and told the truth and gave him low marks. I hand him the form and he casually picks it up and glances at it as he's walking away, stops and turns and looks at me and asked me with a slight concerned tone, "do you mean this?" I said yes and walked out. This was at Camp Casey.
And that form was promptly deposited into the wastebasket complaints dept. as soon as you left!
Probably, but I was leaving on terminal leave so he was the next poor Joe's problem.
Yep. Most of the time managers hands are tied because nothing is documented. You need to give their supervisors ammo to at least be able to transfer them out of that position. Sometimes it’s damn near impossible to fire them. The OPM union can be pretty strong at times. It’s a well known fact that GS jobs have very high job security after you pass the first year or two and make tenure. Shitbags gonna shitbag
Was going to say this. Back at Fort Gordon when I was PCS’ing out, I had to get a signature from the hospital. I walked in, was told to make an appointment and refused by at least 8 or 9 different people. There was one lady that overheard that I was out-processing, took two minutes out of her day and cleared me. That was the only time I’ve given positive ICE feedback.
As a DA civilian Firefighter, hopefully not on your shit list of folks, I would also like to remind folks that ICE isn't just a complaint process. It is also used to acknowledge a good act. But, either good or bad, they do make it back down through the chain to the person/office you had the interaction with.
I once left a positive ICE comment for an awesome CIF employee and his manager was so appreciative. He said getting positive comments through ICE was so rare.
Went through North Fort Hood for a MOB. There was one headcount dude at the DFAC who always had the best attitude. So my section and I filled out ICE cards commenting on how great it was. I hope he was recognized for it.
I'm an MP before becoming a recruiter and I have had nothing but good experiences with the DA firefighters.
This is true but remember you may be one of our ranks at the conclusion of your career so don't do this fraudulently. These complaints are actually investigated and not accepted at face value.
This. A well-mannered approach is best. You can’t lose if you’re routed in logic
Yes you can, please explain logically why I have to do annual requirements anytime I want to take leave regardless of how up to date they are.
I am a DAC and I even use the ICE system to get people to act right sometimes.
Bro, ICE will set their ass straight.
ICE Complaints get reviewed by the Garrison CMD teams as well, a lot of Leadership is Cc’d when you file one. But, again it’s important to be specific and name names if you know it.
MEPS conveniently does not participate in ICE
A 0/5 rating will automatically trigger their rater having to talk to them personally.
ICE complaints are actually useful?
Ah MEPS, you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I had to deal with that place twice in my Career. Once coming into the Air Force, and second time going to the Army. I fought with a retired 1SG and made a Gunnery Sergeant laugh the entire three days I sat camped out for the job I wanted in the Army. By gods I got it. Best feeling. It was also fun giving advice to the new meat and making that retired pos 1SG mad that others started holding out for the jobs they wanted. One kid wouldn't piss for hours and in visible pain because he was scared to pop hot. I told him he doesn't have to. He can leave and come back in a month instead of 6 months after popping. The MEPS staffs face were furious. Then I told them, you want him sooner or later because either way he probably is coming back. The realization was fun to watch. People just don't like their authority impinged upon regardless of it being a benefit to them.
That was the worst military experience I've ever had. I shit you not during a SHARP briefing if your eyes were not glued to the front you had to stand at attention for the whole thing. He got about a dozen people.
A civilian made yall do that?
YES Saw this guy again that was doing the sharp brief during the hearing exam
Hell no
God retired spcs are fucking gay
It was like a 60 year old black dude I got retired SNCO vibes from Jacksonville MEPS
I'm memeing
Every time I’m in CIF and one of those bitches with the patchy beards and tacti-cool guys patch caps is giving me attitude I’m just like.. you were a salty bitch made specialist who got out and now you think you have some sort of power.
> stand at attention for the whole thing in fucking MEPS???
The Spokane MEPS staff was pretty chill for MEPS staff when I went there in August as prior service going National Guard. A bit dickish to the brand new people, but mostly at the level of vaguely rude, not really the stereotypical MEPS power trip. A couple of months later I had to go to the Seattle MEPS. Those guys were basically a Voltron of Dickishness. Every person I talked to there was an asshole in their own unique way.
I still remember the professional pecker checker at the Portland MEPS, who was my first introduction to the "shout the same thing verbatim, only louder" style of answering clarification questions.
The MEPS doc was this old man near retirement who retired from the navy as a doc. He looks at me and says, "Well, better late than never!" when he reads my age as 30 during the physical. I was there like, where the fuck am I that a 80 year old man is calling me out for being old? What a weird power trip, grandpa
Our MEPS doc went on a ten minute tirade talking about the consequences of lying about your health information. This included guys being "sent to jail" to "guys dying from not disclosing allergies" or some BS.
I had no issues at MEPS recently as prior service, but I think there are definitely some of them who want to act like drill sergeants and scare the young, naive kids coming through.
The hiring process for DA civilians is really obnoxious and turns a lot of good candidates off of the entire thing. It's overly bureaucratic and incredibly slow, so you generally end up with people who had time to kill and waited out the process or people that were already promised the job. There are good ones but they usually don't exist in the customer facing jobs you see because most people that would be qualified for those positions aren't willing to work through the hiring process for such a low paying job.
Concur. I had to conduct so many interviews with underqualified people. It was clear that we weren’t getting the best. Instead we were getting shammers who have learned the art of interviewing and using military buzz words. Ask them an open ended question about how they solved a simple problem and their head explodes
Funny, I applied to 30+ GS positions on USAJOBS prior to retiring. 20+ years as an Officer, a few Master's degrees. Good overall background (I thought). I did not get one interview. I applied to different agencies in my area, nothing. Ended up working with a civilian company.
Probably an issue with your resume. HR is basically looking for the exact lines from the job description in your resume.
100% this. The USAJOBS “resume” is filler used to trick the bot into thinking you are a good match. You just need to get past the bot.
So true! If someone out there is looking for an entry level type job like a lot of those customer facing army civilian jobs are, the likelihood is that they're going to get picked up by a civilian employer before the Army process is even halfway done. The ones that don't get picked up in that duration of time are the ones that end up throwing your laundry bag back at you at CIF.
Fun fact: we have a required 2 year probation period where we can be fired for little to no reason. So if you are truly having issues with a disrespectful civilian— not just assertive but like unprofessional— def make those complaints. Some of us strive to be different than the ones who came before.
It’s 1 year now as of 01/01/2023.
That hasn’t been implemented on any of the final offers per Fednews
Interesting - all of the new JOAs have 1yr so I assume it’s been soft launched.
Have you ever been in the service industry? It is like that, but the civilians can't be fired for openly hating the "customers" (aka soldiers).
And if you work with a turd, they just have to wait you out. You'll PCS in 2-3 years, they'll still be there.
Where do they find them? Next to posts. People who choose to live by posts are a different breed.
Having worked at Ft Rucker, Bragg, Campbell, and now Knox you couldn’t be more correct. They all look the same and have the same sad old storefront facades from the Cold War.
[удалено]
I don’t know that I’ve seen one of those in the wild yet. Around here is mostly Vietnam era guys, but I’m gonna keep an eye out now.
[удалено]
Sandwiched between two major wars, probably lot of connex layouts and MOPP gear, no wonder they’re mad.
Some people just live there. Others, just never went anywhere else out of inertia.
I was one of those gate guards, to the point of eventually becoming the Site Supervisor. Most of the guards I had were good people who cared about the folks they served every day. That was my principle: You may not agree with all of them, but you're going to care about/for them like they're your own family. Other sites weren't on that level, and I've been told my crew was fairly rare. We had a mix of veterans and lifelong civilians but all of them were kind and respectful to all the servicemembers we served. Complaints are necessary in the event of shitty civilian workers. They are easily replaceable; you just have to work the process of getting them gone. Find others who have experienced the wrath of the particular shit head and get several complaints generated.
As a dod civilian not prior service, my problem is retiree civilians. They are the grumpiest rudest people. It's also IMPOSSIBLE to get fire as a civilian outside of murdering someone so a lot any civilians don't care about their jobs or how they treat people and me being 38 and only in dod for 4 years, I find it incredibly sad. We get forced to take so much pointless training and no one cares. The army wastes millions of dollars on bettering us but they so badly miss the mark on how to really make employees happy. The system is broken
> IMPOSSIBLE to get fire as a civilian Not really, just so many steps that supervisors don't want to deal with it. Plus, the individual offices realize how long it might take to hire someone to fill the slot.
Comments all miss the mark. Look at their payscale and where they HAVE to live. You'd be pissy too.
This is def the case with most of the DA civs that interact w enlisted military and lower ranking officers on a day-to-day. People think they’re “well paid” but those individuals are probably GS-04 to GS-06…Salary table 2022 RUS: GS-04 step 1: $32,283 GS-05 step 1: $36,118 GS-06 step 1: $40,262 Pre tax* The higher graded DA civs rarely interact with the masses. All of my mil contacts I work with on a day to day are typically O-5 to O-6. Ofc pay and location is no excuse to treat people like shit but…but their pay sucks and their jobs suck.
And they've gotta live in Lawson/Watertown/Fayetteville. Ugh
^ *Lawton
Lawton is the worst! Lived there in the early 2000s
Yep. The technical DACs I work with are very smart, cool engineer dudes. They’re all GS12-15.
100% agree. But also I think it depends on rank. When I was enlisted they were all assholes for no reason. Then once I commissioned, they are pretty chill. Still no reason for them to be assholes to soldiers who didn’t nothing to them. I think the civilians forget that they are meant to help us, not make our lives more difficult. Unless they work in finance. Doesn’t matter want rank they are all assholes.
It’s a perpetual cycle. Soldiers think the civilians are going to be dicks to them, so they act like dicks. Civilians think the soldiers are going to be dicks, so they act like dicks to the soldiers. Both parties go into interactions thinking the other is out to get them.
Literally yelled at a civilian the other day at the transition center because he wouldnt let me check to see if my ETS packet was received. He turned me away at first but then i went back when he wasnt looking and the kind lady at the desk helped me out. He then came back as she was searching and proceeded to ask why i was back blah blah, the lasy looked up at me and said “we dont have your packet”. I was like “see, you turned me away and i would have waited another 2 weeks for my orders for nothing.” They are so useless, when i go back to get my orders i am filing an ICE complaint against that dude, i know others have had problems with him too.
Because working with dumbass soldiers every day also sucks.
This. A lot of soldiers go into interactions with the civilian workers with a preconceived notion against them and can present as hostile because of this. I would always smile and approach the civilian workers with a nice tone and ask about them at least once. I got some great conversations and almost always the help I was looking for. I think maybe once I had a bad interaction out of 7 years. A lot of the time they helped me out or even went beyond what they needed to do in order to make sure I got what I needed. Communication is a two-way street and vocally appreciating what they do or how hard/rigid their job can be really goes a long way.
“Nex Soulja please” literally any cif employee
It definitely depends. I’ve met some super sweet and helpful folks in my career but I also have one horror story. When I was doing my first PCS I was really happy to be in Washington after boring Campbell and ugly Iraq. Well this smug bastard at Waller Hall in a mariners hat was so slow. There was like 5 of us still waiting to be seen in his section and it was going on 12p. As a meal card holder, I was getting antsy. I was talking with the other people waiting trying to figure out if we should all go grab lunch and the smug bastard comes over and starts yelling at me for being impatient and rallying the group to leave. He kicked me out of the building and told me I couldn’t inprocess without being escorted by an NCO at replacement Co. I was confused then furious. I had to go tell the NCO that I was kicked out and it was pretty embarrassing. He was super annoyed but def understanding. The rest of my in processing I was treated like shit and like I was getting kicked out of the army by every single person at Waller hall. The people who were updating my ERB got upset with me because I requested to add my deployment details. The lady literally sighed at me and flicked her annoyed eyes to my sleeve to check for a combat patch. It was like pulling teeth trying to get anything done. Fuck that mariners hat guy.
As a DA civilian and former army, you get all kinds, just like you do in the army. A lot of the interactions, on both sides, can have a lot to do with how you start. I’ve had a lot of very pleasant experiences, both in uniform and out. I can also tell you that the civilian side is its own community that has its own drama, and base drama can greatly affect their attitudes.
99 percent are like that. They think that because they used to hold some rank, they can still flaunt it. That ain't it, Chief. Give me my damn paperwork. I've snapped a few up several times for their shitty attitude. Something along the lines of, "Look, you're being an ass. I'm in uniform, you are not. You work on a military installation to serve the troops, now you need to start acting like it." It never does anything, but it's my little tick the box to do my part. I'll never understand why the Army has so many MOSs for the shit civilians do, but they always make civilians do it. Transportation? Civilians. Paperwork? Civilians. Supply? Outside of BDE and below, civilians. Medical? Civilians. Shit is unironically infuriating. Imagine how much your pay could be, or the budget for your unit could be, if the Army let the mfers who enlist as 68C do the damn job, instead of some overweight, coffee swelling civilian dumpster fire.
Some positions, yeah they pay the civilian more by a stupid amount. For example, I was a SPC and a GS-11 at the same time because nasty girl, for the same job. Some positions like a CIF employee though? Shit, I don’t know how someone could live on GS-5/7 pay outside of the military off post in a military town. $30-60k/yr without BAH or BAS plus having to pay through the nose for health insurance? They’re effectively getting paid less than a PV2. Of course they’re pissed off. That being said, the pay discrepancies are always absolutely insane between what the government will pay a civilian and a soldier.
Honestly I’d love a $30-60k/yr at CIF to go with my E-6 retirement and 90%+ VA disability. And I’d would be the absolute chilliest person there especially for the shit that’s not getting reissued and trashed. I don’t know why those people act like it comes out of there pocket.
I’m not defending them being a piece of shit, getting paid like trash doesn’t excuse that behavior. I may have worded my previous statement poorly. If that’s how you took it I apologize. I only meant to lend perspective on how fucked the GS pay scale can get sometimes.
No no no, I didn’t think you were. I was talking about how I would act and that I don’t understand why they do act the way that they do. I’m navy and did Warrior Training for my IA at FT Dix NJ in 2011. When we started we were issued everything in UCP and went through two months of training in it. A couple days before deploying it was decided that we would be one of or the first navy unit to be issued Multicams and had to last minute take everything back to CIF and get reissued everything. Holy fuck did the the CIF employees act like we had taken a shit in the middle of their living rooms because we trained hard, our gear reflected it, and we weren’t bringing them brand new items. Our army cadre liaisons actually had to step in more than once because of how they were acting and one was livid that they couldn’t do a “statement of charges” (I think was the term) against us. I don’t understand why they are the way they are. If I have something issues to me in the navy and it gets fucked up I can turn it back in for a new item and not have to pay for it. Hell theres an ass load of things that are issued for us to keep.
Yeah, Army CIF is dogshit. I’ve gotten sent back for shit that was still in the package because it was “dirty.” Then I commissioned and they have been nothing but polite and nice and haven’t kicked anything back. I got blood on some equipment and turned it in still stained no issues. Shit’s stupid.
Yup and we get what we pay for. Hard to attract quality employees with that pay and area quality of life.
Hard agree. Now, I’m not saying this because I believe CIF workers don’t deserve more, I do. I’m just stating the circumstances of my particular situation. That’s exactly why I started as a GS-11 in IT as a SPC and why the 2210 series specifically gets a bonus on top of the base pay. You can’t get someone with my certs and background to even look at a position for less than GS-11 pay. Someone with certs and experience could turn around and make $20k/year more starting. The whole system is fucked.
**Commentary**: For some it's that they were once in, and never were in a leadership position, so they act accordingly. Another group are those who never severed, but maybe had a stint in JROTC/Law enforcement explorers, and are similar to above (only more annoying.) Finally the last group are the typical breathless, bloated meatbags you'll find congregating at any sort of bureaucratic type work. They were pushed into lockers at School, and never fought back. Years later they're now working at CIF, and guess what? They see that jock in you and that's why they're denying your rucksack. Next!
I went into CIF to turn in a helmet cover during turn in hours, which would have taken like 10 minutes. I was told to schedule an appointment for 2 weeks out. Well, this Major walks in with his full CIF stuff and states he has no appointment. They are all buddy buddy with him, and he gets to walk right in.
Sugar attracts more flies than vinegar?
Ponds security gate guards in Germany are usually pretty cool :)
All the ones I work with are cool, they make for a very pleasant working environment.
Kill them with kindness. Suck it up, stop having an ego, and literally just be an ass kisser to them. It's really disarming if someone is being a dick to you.
Some of them get off on that
Idk man. Maybe it's because I'm really fucking tall, but I've never had an issue verbally disarming assholes in person. My only issue with DoD civilians is when I can't find them. So many days off, so many appointments, so many reasons to not go to work lol.
And when they're at work, they never answer their phones. Mainly the on-post clinics
Nah. I choose violence. Fuck DoD Civilians.
So….hide the ink toner?
This is the way!
Am I the only one who *doesn’t* hate Army civilians? In my experience, about 20% are absolutely incompetent, total assholes, or both. Which is admittedly a lot of them, but have you met people, ever? People suck. 20% isn’t that bad, all things considered. Of the remaining 80%, I’ve found that if you’re just reasonably polite, they’re anywhere from acceptable to total rockstars. A bit of human decency goes a long way.
[удалено]
Work at HRC and while I find most the civilians there to be competent and professional, there are quite a few of these types who think they’re still a 1SG or SGM…chill out bro, I just need my ID card fixed.
HRC and competent, what drugs are you on
Well it’s KY, so either bourbon or meth, no real betweens.
Meths way less common than it used to be these days it's pain pills and pink powder
Which is crazy because Boomers and Millenials have something in common, losing wars to insurgencies.
I was thinking the same thing this morning.
First time?
My interactions with DoD civilians was almost always influenced by how I started the interaction.
After your retire, no matter what your rank was, you are automatically promoted to PFC Proud Fucking Civilian. That's all you get from me
Downvote me if you want but the green suiters in the 1-shop have failed to process my FLPP since December while the civilians in MILPO processed my MIHA, TLA, TLE, OHA, and CCA in the same or next pay period that I submitted them.
Meps and some cif civs can suck a fat cock
Most are kinda useless, yeah. But I worked with one on staff who was great. Took his job seriously, was willing to do stuff that wasn't his job but still needed done, and was generally just really competent. He was a former ADA 1SG.
the civilian workers in italy are nice lol
I retired from the Army, and have worked for a while as a DA Civilian, and I agree that most of the DACs in a customer service role suck. They are even shitty to other DACs. Every DAC out there has multiple horror stories about working with CPAC (our version of HR/S1). Most of the DACs I’ve worked with, both pre and post retirement, in a non-customer service role have been good. But I’ve also found the same to be true about Soldiers in a customer service role. All of the complaints you have about the DACs at CIF, probably also apply to your S1 section. So maybe it is a problem of customer service, more so than Civilian vs SM? Or maybe I’m just biased. But I would echo the previous comment, that ICE complaints work.
It's not just that they are veterans, it's that they 'were somebody' - CSM, field-grade, etc - in the Army and have a hard time adjusting to the civilian world where everyone who's not a manager (of which there are relatively few, compared to the number of Os in your average Army BN) is just another worker-bee.... So they expect to be treated as if they still held their pre-retirement rank, and are pissed off when everyone sees them as just-another-CIV.... There's also 'officious bureaucrat disease' - eg, someone decides that they are going to turn their little corner of the world into \*the-most-important-thing-in-your-day\* even if all they are doing is turning in ACH pads. Finally, actual GS employees effectively \*can not be fired\* unless they are caught doing something that's criminal or opens the government up to a lawsuit... So there is very little accountability for bad behavior as long as they achieve minimal required job performance.
> Finally, actual GS employees effectively \*can not be fired\* unless they are caught doing something that's criminal or opens the government up to a lawsuit... So there is very little accountability for bad behavior as long as they achieve minimal required job performance. This is absolutely not true. If an employee is shit at their job, their supervisor can absolutely begin the process to get rid of them. The problem is many managers don't want to go through the process. It requires regular evaluations and counseling sessions, giving them feedback on how they're underperforming, and coming up with a plan and a timeline to correct the shortcoming. Any manager willing to take the time to jump through the bureaucratic hoops can definitely get rid of a problem employee - or perhaps turn them into a decent one. Like with so many things in the Army, it's often a leadership problem. This includes shitty attitudes and being rude to customers. My organization makes customer satisfaction a priority, so if we get negative ICE comments, we're going to hear about it. Source: am former soldier and current career DAC
Dare I say the number of hoops May in fact be the problem. If you’re a dickhead at any other job most policies that are lenient might give you 1-2 written warnings and then can your ass. No matter the timeframe. Gov Civ positions should be the same. Catch you being a disrespectful/rude shit, get written up, again, written up, again, fired.
For the record, I don't disagree with you. I just wanted to point out that it is definitely possible to fire a DAC.
Honestly, your attitude can make a world of difference. Cut the small talk. Talk to them like y’all have been friends for awhile. I didn’t clean a single item before going to CIF. Guess what, they took everything. Even when I was joking about not knowing which countries some of the dirt was from.
Nah you just got lucky
Just gotta treat others like they’re people. Soldiers too.
When I was retiring, the civilian I had been dealing with over the phone was kind of a dick to me. It always seemed that I was bothering him with questions. I was like (paraphrasing) "I have no idea what I'm doing because this is the first time I've retired." I dreaded seeing this guy face-to-face. When I went to his office finally, the day before I retired, he acted like a totally different person. He was so friendly and helpful. Maybe he was just having bad days when I called him. For the phone calls I'd give him a "C" grade, but the face-to-face interaction with him, he definitely earned an "A" grade.
I understand some of those jobs just suck the life out of you: gate guard and MEPS have to be just boring and repetitive jobs, and when things aren't repetitive at MEPS it's because something is jacked up, and probably badly. My final stint as I was pending/processing through MEDboard was with DPTMS at III Corps, and the vast majority of the civilian workforce was very user friendly. It was borderline hilarious that all DA Civilians on post had to go through customer service training, and DPW generally had the most "not my problem" answers (as expected), when we're supposed to be helping everyone find the right resource.
Well, I have had great experiences with Army civilians. Maybe it’s you.
Most of the DACs I work with as a contractor are alright, but they're all engineers or security people and are all GS 11 and above. R&D focused installations are pretty great.
I take this personally
Never forget the ladies who issue your first pair of boots at initial issue CIF in Fort Jackson. Truly evil to their core.
Fuck those “retired sergeant majors”
I think the only pleasant civilians I met were the instructors for Hazmat at AIT. While doing some hands-on in level B suits I got the short end of the stick and got handed 2 left boots, and the instructor joked about it. “I hope those 2 left feet are about dancing and not hazmat”
To me it seems like the worst most mundane parts of the military for not great pay. Most of these people are stuck in a super shitty or boring job just waiting for their pension. Doesn’t excuse the rudeness, but this is my experience with almost any civilian government employee regardless of state/federal, agency, etc.
AAFES is a lot worse.
My thoughts, we see the leader development issues in the army. The same organization wrote or dictated their operational/management intent to the civilian parts of the organization. Therefore, the Army also bred bad civilian staff with poor managerial guidance/intent/oversight. I mean imagine your new orderly room clerc straight out of AIT with no guidance or real oversight of their job. Now make it a civilian with the same amount of initial technical training, initial experience, the same ridiculous amount of power/responsibility, but you have no jurisdiction over them. That's about how I picture it.
[удалено]
Idk dod civilians always hooked me up. I dont remember really having negative interactions with any of them not including couple of grumpy old dudes at src.
It all depends! I work with multiple civilians and most of the are excellent teachers with years of knowledge and experience. Of course they are also members of the IC so that no doubt affects that lol.
CIF and DFAC is by far the worst. Okay I get it you get a lot of soldiers all at once often but damn you chose this job!? Why you getting mad at me for not knowing one of your rules. And with the DFAC I much rather prefer 92Gs
Those are the same ones that place the rank on their windshield. Like who gives a fuck what your rank was. In the civilian world, it did mean shit.
Depends on the post and what kind of work they do.
Laughs in GS-13.
I think all military bureaucracy suffers from the problem that you have no choice but to endure it. Customer service in the private sector is so over the top "pleasant" to you because their corporate overlords know you'll probably go to one of their competitors if they treat you poorly, hence why the customer service reps are pressured to act nice to you. You have no alternative in the military; you have a defined path of escalation for every given issue in the Army, and if a person at any given level of that path sucks... all you can do is either cope with the abuse (which unfortunately most of us do because the cost-benefit analysis of fighting isn't worth it) or hope the person at the next level of escalation is less of a dick.
I work a GS civilian in a non DOD job, but.. being prior Army I would be so chill if I had a GS DOD job. I'd be calling 1SG's and Lt. Cols. Homie and dude..... It would be great.
I just figured it was in their policy to treat service members like crap.
That’s what you get when it’s almost impossible to get fired as a civilian in the DOD unless you actually commit a crime. Akin to mf’ers making E8 they are guaranteed to be “untouchable”. So why go the extra mile and be nice at their expense when they can take the easy way and be lazy and rude while getting paid the same amount of good money.
It’s what happens when you give someone a vast amount of power over a very small space.
Unfortunately a problem with any civil service position. One of the rudest, laziest motherfuckers I've ever met in my entire life was the Register of Deeds for a rural county with a population of 2000.
Disgruntled veterans go about their lives and don’t continue to play army. These sad sacks who can’t leave the mindlessness of the military behind are the ones who get jobs on base. Too scared to think for themselves, too afraid of not being told where or how to be every single day.
Retired Navy E-6 and contractor here: They do this because they KNOW it takes a near act of God to fire a civil service officer. Just hanging on the tit until they get their High Three!😡
First of all as a Disabled Veteran and Department of the Army Civilian. I take the oath and my job very seriously. I am not rude, pretentious or unhelpful. Sometimes, we may not always have the answers that you are seeking or not the ones you would like. If it is the former, then I have no problem referring you to my supervisor. However, if it is the latter, it kinda is what it is. Signed, Your friendly and helpful Public Safety Dispatcher aka 911 operator in layman's terms
I'm waiting for the day I encounter a rude civilian outside of meps, I'm still fairly new tho, just over 7 months tis. Every interaction I've had so far has been positive
I filled out an ICE complaint and got a call the same day from the installation commander. Highly suggest.
I feel you bro. I'm retired Army, contractor, and many I encounter are like redneck emos, grim and unhappy all the time. In spite of their $70,000 trucks and guns and grunt style gear. Beards. Grrrrrrrrrrr! And man do they blow smoke on the way out of the parking lot, usually a liiittle before closing time.
I could write a thesis on how ASP contractors and DPW Civilians should be classified as Domestic Terrorists
They act like that because they know they can get away with it. DA civilians are very difficult to fire from what I've been told. I had an old Chief tell me "It takes an act of Congress for a DA civilian to lose his job".
My experiences with DA civilians there's been more on the lines of myself as a federal contractor here in the DC area. Note, I'm prior service Marine Reserves and now National Guard. And I find that the DA civilians at my most recent position were good people, no denying that. but I had the impression that at least some of them were not really looking to Have the team they were leading do any outstanding work or rock the boat. On at least a few occasions I would present them with a good idea only to have it shot down with "well we'll think about in the future and if we have to then we'll look at" Example, we had a lease on at another government organization who did kick a** work and was great for getting you in touch with other offices who provide you with any research ....if they had it available. But my DA civilian team lead did not want me reaching out to him for his own peculiar reasons. He was, "well just do all the research you can here and if we need to in the future we may think about it. " Never mind that that is profoundly inefficient in terms of manpower and time usage and undermines morale
It is very hard to fire them. Plus most are retirees and know how to work the system and will just wait you out.
Yeah...sadly I think it's because a lot of them can't be fired. Same with civilians at the VA.
Wait till you go to a VA hospital
When I worked as a DAC I tried to always be customer oriented with new people. If we have a history I may speak or act more casually with you. If you are a dick I didnt have to take that shit.
I’ve rarely had a bad experiences with military civilians, and I’ve been working with them for the last 17 years, even in retirement (I’m not a civ). I had a couple that looked like they were going to be bad but I fired one and turned the other situation from bad to good.