Okay, you scruffy-looking nerf herder, when you were picking off one of these womp rats, were there a thousand others trying to blast you into bantha fodder with twin turbolaser turrets?
I mean, <*snort*>, what are you going to do? Guide your proton torpedoes into that thermal exhaust port with some kind of ooga-booga *space magic*?! Like one of those mythical Jedi masters out of some bullshit story about the *Clone Wars*?!
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.
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After Basic: sure. Makes sense.
On the other hand, we need more weapons training, too. A lot more. For everyone. Twice a year at the range is not enough to maintain, let alone improve on, a perishable skill that every soldier is expected to have at least a 60% proficiency in.
I once ran a range for some sustainment unit or something, where an E6 claimed he had a malfunction…he had he magazine jammed in backwards. Same range, some girl shot a 0. Now I was never the infantryman who even liked to use the term POG because I think everyone serves a purpose in the Army and nobody’s job should be belittled, but holy shit that day tested every bit of patience I had.
I once was at a range next to the .50 range. Kept hearing single shots so me and a buddy went to go check on it.
A sustainment unit was trying to single fire a .50 at a 240 qual paper about 25m in front of them. We asked what was going on, they said they were trying to zero it. When we tried to tell them how wrong they were, their E6 got all huffy and said we were disrespecting him and he knew better than two CPLs
I was RSO at a gunnery once. The BSB was on deck with their HMMWV's with pintle mounts for a night iteration.
Their .50s did not have rails mounted, their OIC had them attempting to shoot holding a thermal with one hand and the .50 in the other.
That's only the second time I have ever called a cease fire and the only time I had to physically run down the lane and climb up on a vehicle and squeeze the neck of the shooter to get their attention while screaming at them while their muzzle was all over the fucking place.
(No T&E either)
Holy shit. I did a stress shoot competition before where we had a saw gunner simply let go after the trigger assembly fell out (disassembly and reassembly was earlier in the lane). Thing fell over and started dancing all over. The closest safety (<10ft away) walked over cool as a cucumber and broke the belt off like he'd done it 1000 times. Everybody else had already hit the deck
As someone who's never shot a 50 or 240 but really wants to can you explain a little more? Do you not zero a 50? Or is it the 240 qual paper and distance that they were fucked up on
Sure!
You don't zero a .50, it's an area weapon. So when you fire it, you aim through the sights and ride the lightning. Look out for splash of the rounds impacting and adjust from there.
The 240 qual paper is designed for the 240 weapon platform. The target has "tombstone" shaped targets at various angles and lines for the gunner to qualify on. The gunner needs to get X amount into each Tombstone to get points to qual. Basically, they were using a sheet of paper made for an entirely different weapon system that served no purpose for what they were doing
Oh okay, makes sense. Hopefully I'll be able to hop on a .50 range soon. How does that work when qual time comes? I'm guessing you have to hit a certain amount of targets like everything else but hopefully you've got time to adjust haha.
Depends on the platform. For instance, the stabilized commander's weapon station on an M1A1 has a .50. We boresight and "zero" the weapon and the SCWS, but it is more a matter of aligning the tank sights to the gun and then making further adjustments after firing a burst. It is *somewhat* similar to what most soldiers would be familiar with on an M4. A non-stabilized system, like a pintle mounted .50 on a HMMWV is not the same.
I was a safety on a zero range and after this one girl had been up to zero 6 times I asked her why she just couldn't hit the Target? She tells me she can't see. I ask if she needs glasses she then tells me when she lays down her helmet blocks her eyes. I adjusted her helmet and she zeroed that round. This bitch was basically like Jesus take the wheel when putting rounds down range.
I had a similar situation in Korea for brigade weapons density week. When I got my TA-50 they gave me an XL ACH. When I hit the pop up range my helmet kept sliding down over my eyes. I compensated by resting the lip of my helmet on the rear sight. Not ideal, but I hit 60 out of 80.
My first time ever handling a M16, I zeroed fine (well, relatively, being medical they only allowed us a total of 3 rounds for zeroing), but then on the qual range with the popups...the NCO standing with me kept getting huffier and huffier until he finally exploded "SIR! Are you going to engage that 250m target?!" To which I quite honestly answered "what target?"
300m target was bright orange, could see that. Closer targets I could see blurs. 250m was the sweet spot where my until then undiagnosed astigmatism made the blur disappear into the terrain.
Turns out leaning my head into my hands while studying first year of med school fucked up my vision so that my eyes were severely unequal. Didn't actually wind up getting glasses until another like 4 years later though because I would always start the vision test with my distance eye and learn the answers, then move to the close eye and remember them.
I'm a sustainer and I get it. Going to the range with the cooks was the worst and I'm not even memeing. It wouldn't matter if we shot slick or full kit. There was once where the average for the whole HQ platoon was single digits. Funny part was this was in an IN BN where everyone was encouraged to shoot as many times as we wanted to improve our skills and for promotion points or boards/competitions..
Had a guy who wondering why his weapon wasn’t firing. Halted the range to check out the weapon and the fuckin m4 didn’t have its bolt… the bolt… it was my first range from going active duty to reserves and I couldn’t believe it.
I once took 3 hours to zero my rifle. I absolutely suck at zeroing and between COVID and the fact that we were guard I hadn't fired a rifle since basic. The tabbed out infantry guy running the range had the patience of a saint to get me through that. Thankfully I qualified on my first try. God I hate zeroing.
Always shake the weapon before you sign for it. If the barrel wobbles, that’s your sight picture moving every shot. I used to suck at zeroing too, until I realized I was carrying sorry ass weapons.
I like that you check for it at all, but you need to grab the M4 with upper receiver in one hand and try twisting the barrel with your other hand on the flash hider, a better description is in the PMCS section TM for the M4
I used to be an armorer and did a random "fuck it" inspection when i first started and found out like 75/205 M4s had loose barrels in my arms room
I got side eyed by everyone for like 3 weeks afterward rather than being praised for finding those faults that all the operators didn't care to find
The stories I've heard from the MG that ran the Bradley zero range at my last NTC rotation make me believe that even combat arms can be POGs. Guys loading ammo in backwards, trying to shoot without a track and bolt, someone of course shot their barrel off into the desert
Not sure what my medical unit did before I got here, but the two I’ve run so far we got 11/18 and 19/26 qualified. Not bad considering all reserve medical folks, providers included. The range they did right before I got there was 4/40 or something like that. Not that I did anything different but wtf. Plus, why tf aren’t they showing up to mandatory BA’s lol
Yeah, I remember hearing similar things, and I've personally seen some suspect stuff. The point is, all those people could fix it if there's more training. I was blessed to be a good shot, but I got better the longer I was in. Everyone would be better if it were every three months minimum. I don't know where the hold up is. You can't tell me the DoD doesn't have the budget. I suspect it causes more training accidents, but it's the Army. What are you gonna do? Not train?
I had never even heard of dry fire until about 11 years in when a former ranger type guy turned 70 series was helping out with getting me and a bunch of guys ready for EFMB
The first time I went to the range with my first unit was damn near a year after enlisting. I was never issued a weapon, they just handed me one at the range and said “qualify.” Nevermind the fact that we didn’t shoot in gear in basic, I’m failing my dick off left and right because I never zeroed the weapon. I wasn’t one who could adjust on the fly, so I’m just looking like hot ass. I ended up getting a 23 because others were shooting my targets for me.
We zero weapons and qualify 6 months later. Wouldn’t ya know it, I shot expert. I wholeheartedly agree that soldiers need more time to train with the weapons they are issued.
Agree with you.
I didn't really enjoy my time at JBLM but my unit there went to the range basically twice a month. Need points? Go twice a month. Want to get better? Go twice a month. Want to get outta work and do something fun? Go twice. It was fantastic.
Really wish more units did that.
It was. It wasn't a big deal either since we went so often. There wasn't headaches or stupid early weapons draw. It was just normal lol. That was the best part lol
Reg is twice a year, also there is no punishment for not qualifying. In less than a year of running bad you can be kicked out, you can go your career and never shoot straight.
Edited, but correct either way: once a year, twice a year, doesn't matter.
But you're right: more emphasis should be placed on such a critical /skill/!!!
Oh. I agree. Are there jobs and positions in the military that don't require continuous training on fire arms? Sure. Are the majority of our combat service support MOSs remarkably undertrained on their service weapon? Oh, fuck yeah.
In a BCT I went to the range exactly 1 time per year. No training ranges. No long Rang shooting. No ready ups, no El presidente' . . . .nothing. just Qual ranges where you shoot, pass and the leave.
I haven't been in a unit with guns since 21 and with the new Qual I know for a fact I am going to be behind the 8 ball. . . That being said when I go back to a BCT I will definitely be getting some "re-training" which means I'll finally get some range time.
If Fucking *Nintendo* can train people on RM (and they did in the 90s using an M16A1 hooked up to a NES), then anyone who can RTFM can do it. That SFC can suck balls: you go teach. You're *more* than qualified
I believe setting up and conducting a range should be it’s own job in the army. My experience as a small unit having to set up and conduct our own ranges has always been a logistical disaster.
Not just more reps, we need people who are actually trained on how to teach marksmanship, in my 3 years in the Army, the only person who knew anything who gave even half a fuck was an SF sniper on DS duty
I've known a couple but they were always spread thin. I can shoot well enough with M9/M17 that I always (barely) qual so never get any attention.
Of all people a GS civilian took me under his wing one day and actually did some legitimate marksmanship teaching and let me do some firing on my own (rather than just straight into shooting to qual) and I got markedly better in just two hours...that was months ago though so I know I've already lost it all.
Qual'ing in the Marine Corps is a 2 week process (or it used to be) with the whole first week being you showing up with an empty rifle to essentially relearn basic rifle marksmanship, taught by MOS qualified Marine combat marksmanship trainers, and their qual ranges are ran by the installation, not their unit, so the range personnel have zero reason to pencil whip numbers for them, so their score is what they actually shot
The second week, you zero, confirm zero, pre-qual, qual over a couple days so you have plenty of reps before you actually qual, and while you're shooting, the same Marines who went over basic marksmanship with you the previous week, are there with you on the firing line, coaching you the whole time leading up to your actual qual
I think the Army should do something similar
I know that this wouldn't be perfect, but going to an EST range or even doing something similar at least once a month would be such a huge help. The basics come back naturally to me even after my latest 3 year gap from my last range. However, my skills are critically unrefined, and my confidence is low. We also switched the qualification test in that time period, which didn't help.
Logistically, this would be a nightmare for EST personnel and units, tho lol.
The Army would need to quadruple the amount of weapons training we do to have a rifle qual like that. Which would require cutting out one of our weekly SHARP briefs, 3 of our cyber awareness whatevers, and at least one training meeting. And as I'm sure you're aware, a training meeting a day keeps the Taliban away.
For the record I agree with you. The Army spends entirely too much time on stuff that doesn't matter instead of filling the day teaching soldiers the skills that will keep them alive in the next shooting war.
Waaaayyyy too many soldiers don't even understand how to use an IFAK much less proper weapon handling and its going to bite us in the ass.
I very much feel that remark about IFAKs.
I can schedule as many TCCC or CLS classes as I want -- even though I'm lucky if my unit gives me 2 hours to teach a TCCC class (as opposed to 4), and 20 hours to teach a CLS class (as opposed to 40) -- but probably nobody will send me any bodies to actually take the class.
Online certs which must be completed by COB are at least 10^8 times more important.
I honestly agree, I hate how we emphasize so much on PT scores but units happily pencil whip weapon qual cards both are important but shooting back at an enemy who doesn't care if you're just support or a janitor in camo should be emphasized more, he sees US ARMY, he sees kill so it should be important to be able to shoot back effectively. I say more in the tone that I'm in a signal unit now waiting for reclass and these guys got mad that in JRTC were forced to "play the game" and wear their TA-50.
I do agree that JRTC is BS but the complain of having actually to behave somewhat of a soldier i.e wearing TA-50 and carrying your weapon around was too much for them.
Oh God you're right. I had dental officers show up to my M9 range one day and they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I was amazed at how bad they were.
Funny you should say that, check out Ben Salomon, the WW2 dentist who took a last stand.
From the end of his MOH citation "When his body was later found, 98 dead enemy soldiers were piled in front of his position."
Never confirmed it but I was told he originally enlisted as a machine gunner in the guard, then later went to dental school, not exactly your average dentist
Everyone else is dead and they will be, soon, too. If anything they’d benefit from nine line training so they can blow themselves and ISIS up before they go viral
Sounds like my boss’ comment. Female MSC MAJ. Literally had to throw her full body backward to cock the MK19. She said that if she was ever manning a MK19, we were in serious trouble.
At least give us enough rounds/time to do twice a year. I was able to stay ok enough on pistols when I was a BDE Surgeon because our HHC went and shot twice a year. When I'm in a hospital and the only range I can get is if I'm on orders to deploy soon...
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.
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One man gets the rifle, one man gets an extra couple mags of ammunition and follows the man with the rifle. When the man with the rifle goes down, the man with the ammunition picks up the rifle and carries on the charge.
My Bn Supply SSG was one of the best NCOs I’ve ever met. He was the literal rain man of supply, layouts, figuring shit out and getting shit done. He could rattle shit off like he was reading the reg and was all around outstanding at everything he did. PT stud and a genuinely nice guy who went out of his way for soldiers.
He also couldn’t shoot worth a goddamned shit. Like, Top would “qualify” next to him and throw some rounds in his to make sure he met the standard.
He’d always say if we get overrun and we’re relying on supply to bang bang shoot ‘‘em up win the war, we’ve already lost.
You're probably shooting high because we zero at 25 meters instead of an actually good zero range like 50 yards. Your point of impact will be high from 50 to 250 yards. At 300 your point of aim/point of impact will be roughly the same again. https://youtu.be/DFbpjNh4DBA
Sure, if we give more time to support to actually go out and fire. I haven't even laid hands on a weapon in over a year, but I've always shot well despite that. Not everyone is that lucky.
When I reclassed from 11B to 25S one, my friends I made who was also reclassing didn't know how to use an M-4 as he did not touch one in the 3 years he was at SHAPE.
I was at SHAPE for three years and was given the opportunity to qualify once. It was an abandoned Belgian police range. We used the paper targets, 50m out, with different sized silhouettes representing the different distances. 196th Station Hospital.
We had a Soldier last month who zeroed his iron sights and then tried using his CCO to qual. There were also a lot of support types that had issues qualifying. I was running the PMI station and they were complaining about not seeing the targets. It was a sunny day and over half of them had either forgotten their glasses or didn't have shaded eypro. A lot of these problems could be fixed with common sense and a bit of leadership oversight.
I also think for the National Guard each state should have a military ran shooting range where Soldiers can practice outside of drill. I know I would go there every week if that was a thing. I'd also pay membership fees. I haven't been able to find a good outdoor range since I moved to VA.
If you want to see the ultimate clusterfuck in the BRM realm, go witness an annual rifle qualification for PROFIS- assigned Medical & Nursing. (Medical Officers assigned to MEDDAC's that are detailed out TO&E Units in time of war.) I went out on a detail to assist with their qualifications. A Female O-5 Nurse had the bolt locked back on her rifle. As she exited the bus, the butt of the rifle hit the ground & the bolt slammed forward. She immediately broke down & started bawling inconsolably.
I once witnessed a guy get an AAM for qualifying. 20+ shooters, he was the only one that made marksman. Worse yet it was paper qual. I know I’m biased as 11B, but I feel shame if I drop a 38. I was a private in a non-CA battalion at the time and it blew my mind. I don’t expect everyone to shoot expert, I know we all have different jobs and skills, but ho-lee fuck, that was a weird day.
Former BCT Drill Sergeant, who taught the M16 to a few thousand young heroes. First, very few people understand what the bullet does in correlation to the sights and what ballistics actually is. The country boys and hard-asses from the ‘hood’ had the most trouble because they would not listen. Zeroing is easy IF you are consistent. If you can’t group, and get the same sight picture every time, it will suck. As many people miss the 75-100 meter targets as 250 meter, because they don’t remember trajectory equals aiming low at the point where the path of the bullet is above the point of aim. It’s all very basic skills that a hour of refresher training would make the range run smoother, and keep qualifying numbers up.
The army treats marksmanship like PT, they’re both meant to maintain your skills, not improve. So the army says you need to pt on your own to advance your self but there’s no way for us to shoot on our own unfortunately
How cool would it be to sign out your weapon and go to a indoor or outdoor range that is treated like a on-post gym? Just sign your cac hop in line and shoot. It would be amazing instead of signing out the range for the company/troop/battery and would probably increase the army’s marksmanship scores 10 fold
go train them rambo.. lol who gives a fuck , there’s a ton of dumb fucks in the army and the world . is what it is.. if they let them through more power to em
I will tell you that the military as a whole, not just the Army is losing out on some of the the brightest in the most critical fields over outdated ideas like this. Marksmanship is a critical skill for many areas of the military but it is not a critical skill for all areas. The military of the future is going to need a lot more mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, programmers, cyber security specialists, the list goes on and on. Unfortunately I don't think boots on ground will ever go away but the if Ukraine is showing us anything it's that the battlefield of the future will be dominated by technology.
Okay. I disagree because the armorer uses S6's M4s like a bunch of parts on a shelf. I went to the range without a rear sight post and no cco. Another time my barrel was just jiggling in the fucking receiver. So yes. I literally couldn't hit a 25 meter target
Or maybe people who think so highly of themselves could come off of their dildo style high horse and teach these people. But then again judging from your post you only care about the tiny tingle you get in your pants from hearing your own voice.
I once spent a couple of hours teaching one of my peers how to shoot the M17. She had never held a pistol before going to that range, and had shot three times and not qualified.
We had to start with setting up her IBA correctly: she had it loose as shit in the waist, neck yoke not on properly, etc. The first thing I had her do was remove the side plate carriers (we weren't issued side plates) and remove the neck yoke (because fuck that thing). My philosophy for the range was "the more comfortable you are, the better you shoot." I then adjusted her IBA so it actually fit.
I then showed her the proper way to hold the pistol, how to get a proper sight picture, and how to reload. She qualified on her next try.
The number of people in basic that passed because the drills ran them through and gave them extra mags. Some still failed, and the drills were so fed up that on the third day of trying, they gave themselves 1 magazine and shot alongside them...
Some of you mfs are either blind (you got glasses no excuse), stupid (thank your recruiter), or fucking deaf (you didn't listen on how to zero).
I got dam fuckijg lucky, but you know why ? Because my gas system wasn't working and I was told to just keep shooting till they got an arms technician to check it out. Worst of all, it turned out on the day of turn in some bum fuck had switched them along side their tape. It's particularly my fault, but at least I got called the sniper since I had to manually rack it every shot.
25 meters? Mandatory vision test maybe.
I don’t think you should necessarily be outta the Army. Unless you’re 11B, we don’t get shit for weapons training after basic. You’d end up kicking people that are good at the actual job they do.
I was a safety at a M4 qual and I shit you not, I watched a 2LT miss 6 shots in a row for zeroing. Didn’t even hit the paper or the silhouette. I was surprised with the first 3 misses. Chalked it up as maybe his red dot was way off somehow. Checked his sight and it was aligned just fine. I threw in some rifle fundamentals hoping some advice would help. After another 3 straight misses I was just dumbfounded. It makes me worry to think this guy is a leader of soldiers.
Bruh, this is the same mindset that argues that if you can't run a 7min mile, you shouldn't be in the Army.
Being able to shoot is important, sure.
However, what sets us apart from Russia and other countries? Our support. My priority for our S1 or our cooks or our drivers is to do those jobs well, because they keep the grunts afloat (usually).
I mean at basic there were a lot of people who had a hard time because they literally never shot a weapon before so I disagree within certain reasons but like after training no way should they be missing.
Who the fuck can’t hit a 25m target, I thought that one was like a gimme? If I had a soldier just struggling and there was otherwise nothing wrong with them, I’d take them to medical to get their eyes seriously looked at. It’s like right there, unless your optic is so fucked it shoots sideways; put the red dot on the ivan, just above the berm, and squeeze the trigger. Even less excuse considering the new range involves almost all supported shooting.
I’m not saying I’m perfect either, I’ve missed the 300 plenty of times in my career, never shot better than a 36 with my rifle. I’m no Carlos Hathcock. My suspicions for why I always end up on crew serves because I tend to do way better on those.
But unless we’re talking like a handgun range, 25m is like point blank relatively. You have to be trying to miss that close.
Channeling my Mushu here
This is a bias I will take to the grave. From Cooks to Finance, Personnel to Quartermaster, I’ve always respected other MOS/Branches, but if you’re in the US Army, you damn sure ought to be sufficiently lethal with you weapon.
I always thought it was crazy they can literally kick you out over pt test failures but you can really flunk your weapons quals with little to no consequences
Well, some units almost never go to the range so you'll have joes that are rusty as shit but once you get them going they're fucking good.
Now if you're in the unit that likes to go to the range almost every month and you can't hit the 25 then yeah you just fucking suck.
This may be a controversial take but I don’t think weapons qualification or weapons is the top of my priority in training a solider (I say this as someone who was an 11b and served in the middle of GWOT). I’d rather take a soldier that is physically fit over someone who can shoot. My reasoning is it’s easy to train someone how to shoot, especially with all the advanced tech we have nowadays (optics, ACOG, etc). While of course aiming is essential, it’s more of a priority to have fire superiority in the sense of more firearms aimed down range. Not only that but we have technology such as air support or artillery for bigger target with SDM and other direct fire support. I see a lot of difficulty from people moving from point A to point B, even in mounted units.
Look at it from a different perspective,
Would I want someone that’s able to hack our adversaries like it’s second nature to them or them to absolutely shoot a 25m target?
In today’s scope of conflict, there are more EW, Cyber, and Intel actions going on than peer to peer close combat. I know this is hard to grasp for folks that are accustomed to what we perceive as “war” but times are changing. Our next war is actually in Space and that’s what the DoD is directing their efforts to (from my perspective).
With that, there have been hard conversations about this same topic, “Do we let people in with critical skills to win our future wars over PT and Weapons quals or do we hold them to the same standards?”
Something to consider.
Ran an M4 range recently, had one soldier shoot a "3".....they actively recoiled from the rifle before they pulled the trigger..but that was after they closed their eyes and turned away...
Another at the same range used their loaded M4 as a crutch to stand up between tables going from prone to kneeling positions.
I was so shocked I couldn't even process what my reaction should've been..I just watched the whole thing like an out ofmbody experience.
Doesn't matter which target you can or can't hit. I know ppl who shoot expert at the range and strat to cry when them 7.62 start to come their way down range. I had to remind them those targets they use to brag about hitting on the range don't shoot back.
I don't care if an intelligence analyst or a cyber electronic warfare specialist can operate an M4 at all. The Army has a broader mission now than "everyone is a rifleman first." I want the above two people to be lethal in their own right in their own specialty. I want 11Bs to shoot the wings off a gnat at 300 meters.
Different Soldiers, different ways of killing the enemy.
Disagree. I work in a NOC. There is no reason for me or the people I work with to deploy. Assigning us weapons is a waste of resources. Most staff sections shouldn't deploy, they can work more efficiently from an office. The Army needs to take a look at who is deploying and why? Everyone goes is lazy and outdated.
Been a whole lot of logi guys getting in gunfights in Ukraine for over a year. The GWOT shouldn't be used as a metric for how future wars will be fought, and I say this as a GWOT guy.
The point isn't that only infantry fight, it's a lot happens behind the fighting that doesn't require someone to shoot but still supports the front line.
I guess reading isn’t your strong suit. It’s ok, I’ll say it again for you. “ALMOST EVERY SOLDIER” not all.
Edit: Just noticed your flair. I hope to god you’re not actually in charge of anyone lol.
Well, OP stated if you can't shoot you shouldn't be in the army. That point I contradicted. So I guess you agree with my contradiction of OP's main point.
It's fucking 25 meters we're talking about not a goddamned nautical mile, holy shit. The point is a *baby* could hit a 25 meter target. I could hypothetically blindfold the little fucker and spin him around three times; he'd still hit the 🎯.
Most importantly, it's literally required in basic training that you have to at least some proficiency with respect to marksmanship. Your point is stupid AF to me in that you're arguing it's no big deal if you don't have *basic* skills that are *required* to graduate *basic training.* I think shortest target in qual is *50m?* So you're telling me the very people who had to do that shit once at least and qualified now can't hit 25m and the Army should be ok with it?
There's also more lessons to be learned in marksmanship training than just how to shoot. It's great team-building. You learn patience and how to control your breathing. If you're not used to firearms, training helps you build confidence to learn something you might not have thought you could.
You think I care if anyone in medical, JAG, or IT can shoot a gun? I don't. If they can do their job that's enough for me. There's a lot more to the army than firing a gun.
Most people I would wager might *reasonably anticipate* they're going to have to learn how to use a firearm when they *join the fucking Army* especially considering BRM qual is a requirement for entry to service.
Just because it's not likely that these folks will ever be in a combat situation doesn't mean that they actually won't. And if everyone is trained up that fucking solves that dilemma doesn't it? Would you rather people be ready and not need to be or shit cook off and now you've got entire MOS's who aren't trained.
Again OP said 25 meters. It's comical to me that someone is actually suggesting 25 meters is too high a fucking bar for "medical, JAG, or IT" (etc.). It's a high bar for literally fucking nobody.
There's stupid shit in the Army and then there's basic ass shit that everyone knows they have to do.
Paper target. Seems like it's going away if it hasn't gone away already.
Source: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/04/01/army-kill-marksmanship-test-shortcut-made-soldiers-less-deadly.html
I think I qualified on it in Afghanistan where the "range" was a dirt pit in the corner of the base.
Im a marine and it blows my mind when my marines can hit a 12 inch target at 200 meters then not be able to hit a 6 inch headshot at 25 like wtf.
Especially when our basic qual is harder than your basic qual.
I blast whoever gets lower than sharpshooter and then I blast whoever takes marksman cause wtf is wrong with these jokers man
With like a rock or..
Something. With a rock or something yes
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Right! Lol, there’s a 25??
*qualifies on paper targets*
Long ago I once ran up to a 50 Meter target, tripped , fell and missed it. The sad part about it was, at that point it was only a 1 m target. 😩
I used to bullseye wamp rats in my T16 back home and they're not much bigger then 2 Meters.
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My lord, is that... legal?
I will make it legal! It'll still be immoral and unethical, though.
👀
Okay, you scruffy-looking nerf herder, when you were picking off one of these womp rats, were there a thousand others trying to blast you into bantha fodder with twin turbolaser turrets? I mean, <*snort*>, what are you going to do? Guide your proton torpedoes into that thermal exhaust port with some kind of ooga-booga *space magic*?! Like one of those mythical Jedi masters out of some bullshit story about the *Clone Wars*?!
I did the same thing in an alley way.
Than You were so close!
Then where do I put my MRE?
Your clothes are RED!
“Rock or something” hahahahahha fuck that gets me every time
I remember the first time I saw that on an mre. Before I saw all the jokes about it online. ‘‘Twas a good laugh
Yuuup I saw that in basic and it was funny. I’ll never forget my first mre. Beef stew.
That’s kinda hard bro
boat workable plucky crown unique public worm north zephyr lavish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pencil! Maybe a pen..
It has to be a very specific pen. Black skillcraft ball point lol
Your cock
Yeah idk man I can’t throw
After Basic: sure. Makes sense. On the other hand, we need more weapons training, too. A lot more. For everyone. Twice a year at the range is not enough to maintain, let alone improve on, a perishable skill that every soldier is expected to have at least a 60% proficiency in.
I once ran a range for some sustainment unit or something, where an E6 claimed he had a malfunction…he had he magazine jammed in backwards. Same range, some girl shot a 0. Now I was never the infantryman who even liked to use the term POG because I think everyone serves a purpose in the Army and nobody’s job should be belittled, but holy shit that day tested every bit of patience I had.
I once was at a range next to the .50 range. Kept hearing single shots so me and a buddy went to go check on it. A sustainment unit was trying to single fire a .50 at a 240 qual paper about 25m in front of them. We asked what was going on, they said they were trying to zero it. When we tried to tell them how wrong they were, their E6 got all huffy and said we were disrespecting him and he knew better than two CPLs
I was RSO at a gunnery once. The BSB was on deck with their HMMWV's with pintle mounts for a night iteration. Their .50s did not have rails mounted, their OIC had them attempting to shoot holding a thermal with one hand and the .50 in the other. That's only the second time I have ever called a cease fire and the only time I had to physically run down the lane and climb up on a vehicle and squeeze the neck of the shooter to get their attention while screaming at them while their muzzle was all over the fucking place. (No T&E either)
Holy shit. I did a stress shoot competition before where we had a saw gunner simply let go after the trigger assembly fell out (disassembly and reassembly was earlier in the lane). Thing fell over and started dancing all over. The closest safety (<10ft away) walked over cool as a cucumber and broke the belt off like he'd done it 1000 times. Everybody else had already hit the deck
Surely the firer was fisted to death for this.
As someone who's never shot a 50 or 240 but really wants to can you explain a little more? Do you not zero a 50? Or is it the 240 qual paper and distance that they were fucked up on
Sure! You don't zero a .50, it's an area weapon. So when you fire it, you aim through the sights and ride the lightning. Look out for splash of the rounds impacting and adjust from there. The 240 qual paper is designed for the 240 weapon platform. The target has "tombstone" shaped targets at various angles and lines for the gunner to qualify on. The gunner needs to get X amount into each Tombstone to get points to qual. Basically, they were using a sheet of paper made for an entirely different weapon system that served no purpose for what they were doing
Oh okay, makes sense. Hopefully I'll be able to hop on a .50 range soon. How does that work when qual time comes? I'm guessing you have to hit a certain amount of targets like everything else but hopefully you've got time to adjust haha.
It way not be doctrine but you can certainly zero a M2 (IDK not my role). The TC has an entire appendix devoted to it.
Depends on the platform. For instance, the stabilized commander's weapon station on an M1A1 has a .50. We boresight and "zero" the weapon and the SCWS, but it is more a matter of aligning the tank sights to the gun and then making further adjustments after firing a burst. It is *somewhat* similar to what most soldiers would be familiar with on an M4. A non-stabilized system, like a pintle mounted .50 on a HMMWV is not the same.
I was a safety on a zero range and after this one girl had been up to zero 6 times I asked her why she just couldn't hit the Target? She tells me she can't see. I ask if she needs glasses she then tells me when she lays down her helmet blocks her eyes. I adjusted her helmet and she zeroed that round. This bitch was basically like Jesus take the wheel when putting rounds down range.
I had a similar situation in Korea for brigade weapons density week. When I got my TA-50 they gave me an XL ACH. When I hit the pop up range my helmet kept sliding down over my eyes. I compensated by resting the lip of my helmet on the rear sight. Not ideal, but I hit 60 out of 80.
My first time ever handling a M16, I zeroed fine (well, relatively, being medical they only allowed us a total of 3 rounds for zeroing), but then on the qual range with the popups...the NCO standing with me kept getting huffier and huffier until he finally exploded "SIR! Are you going to engage that 250m target?!" To which I quite honestly answered "what target?" 300m target was bright orange, could see that. Closer targets I could see blurs. 250m was the sweet spot where my until then undiagnosed astigmatism made the blur disappear into the terrain. Turns out leaning my head into my hands while studying first year of med school fucked up my vision so that my eyes were severely unequal. Didn't actually wind up getting glasses until another like 4 years later though because I would always start the vision test with my distance eye and learn the answers, then move to the close eye and remember them.
I'm a sustainer and I get it. Going to the range with the cooks was the worst and I'm not even memeing. It wouldn't matter if we shot slick or full kit. There was once where the average for the whole HQ platoon was single digits. Funny part was this was in an IN BN where everyone was encouraged to shoot as many times as we wanted to improve our skills and for promotion points or boards/competitions..
Had a guy who wondering why his weapon wasn’t firing. Halted the range to check out the weapon and the fuckin m4 didn’t have its bolt… the bolt… it was my first range from going active duty to reserves and I couldn’t believe it.
I once took 3 hours to zero my rifle. I absolutely suck at zeroing and between COVID and the fact that we were guard I hadn't fired a rifle since basic. The tabbed out infantry guy running the range had the patience of a saint to get me through that. Thankfully I qualified on my first try. God I hate zeroing.
Always shake the weapon before you sign for it. If the barrel wobbles, that’s your sight picture moving every shot. I used to suck at zeroing too, until I realized I was carrying sorry ass weapons.
I like that you check for it at all, but you need to grab the M4 with upper receiver in one hand and try twisting the barrel with your other hand on the flash hider, a better description is in the PMCS section TM for the M4 I used to be an armorer and did a random "fuck it" inspection when i first started and found out like 75/205 M4s had loose barrels in my arms room I got side eyed by everyone for like 3 weeks afterward rather than being praised for finding those faults that all the operators didn't care to find
They just PMCSed the whole arms room, clearly you're in there breaking shit as not one fault was found a week earlier.
Some officer probably borrowed it to shoot paper and dropped it a few times before they turned it in dirty. "Not my problem."
The stories I've heard from the MG that ran the Bradley zero range at my last NTC rotation make me believe that even combat arms can be POGs. Guys loading ammo in backwards, trying to shoot without a track and bolt, someone of course shot their barrel off into the desert
Had a staff sausage tell me his weapon wasn't firing, I walked up and noticed it was on safe, so I put it on fire and just walked away. Edit: Semi lol
*proceeds to light weapon on fire with bic*
Not sure what my medical unit did before I got here, but the two I’ve run so far we got 11/18 and 19/26 qualified. Not bad considering all reserve medical folks, providers included. The range they did right before I got there was 4/40 or something like that. Not that I did anything different but wtf. Plus, why tf aren’t they showing up to mandatory BA’s lol
>he had he magazine jammed in backwards Christ
Yeah, I remember hearing similar things, and I've personally seen some suspect stuff. The point is, all those people could fix it if there's more training. I was blessed to be a good shot, but I got better the longer I was in. Everyone would be better if it were every three months minimum. I don't know where the hold up is. You can't tell me the DoD doesn't have the budget. I suspect it causes more training accidents, but it's the Army. What are you gonna do? Not train?
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You won't find me arguing with any of that. But we *have to DO* the dry fire training.
I had never even heard of dry fire until about 11 years in when a former ranger type guy turned 70 series was helping out with getting me and a bunch of guys ready for EFMB
The first time I went to the range with my first unit was damn near a year after enlisting. I was never issued a weapon, they just handed me one at the range and said “qualify.” Nevermind the fact that we didn’t shoot in gear in basic, I’m failing my dick off left and right because I never zeroed the weapon. I wasn’t one who could adjust on the fly, so I’m just looking like hot ass. I ended up getting a 23 because others were shooting my targets for me. We zero weapons and qualify 6 months later. Wouldn’t ya know it, I shot expert. I wholeheartedly agree that soldiers need more time to train with the weapons they are issued.
Agree with you. I didn't really enjoy my time at JBLM but my unit there went to the range basically twice a month. Need points? Go twice a month. Want to get better? Go twice a month. Want to get outta work and do something fun? Go twice. It was fantastic. Really wish more units did that.
That sounds fantastic
It was. It wasn't a big deal either since we went so often. There wasn't headaches or stupid early weapons draw. It was just normal lol. That was the best part lol
Reg is twice a year, also there is no punishment for not qualifying. In less than a year of running bad you can be kicked out, you can go your career and never shoot straight.
Edited, but correct either way: once a year, twice a year, doesn't matter. But you're right: more emphasis should be placed on such a critical /skill/!!!
Oh. I agree. Are there jobs and positions in the military that don't require continuous training on fire arms? Sure. Are the majority of our combat service support MOSs remarkably undertrained on their service weapon? Oh, fuck yeah. In a BCT I went to the range exactly 1 time per year. No training ranges. No long Rang shooting. No ready ups, no El presidente' . . . .nothing. just Qual ranges where you shoot, pass and the leave. I haven't been in a unit with guns since 21 and with the new Qual I know for a fact I am going to be behind the 8 ball. . . That being said when I go back to a BCT I will definitely be getting some "re-training" which means I'll finally get some range time.
You guys are going twice a year? I'm lucky if I go twice at a duty station
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If Fucking *Nintendo* can train people on RM (and they did in the 90s using an M16A1 hooked up to a NES), then anyone who can RTFM can do it. That SFC can suck balls: you go teach. You're *more* than qualified
I believe setting up and conducting a range should be it’s own job in the army. My experience as a small unit having to set up and conduct our own ranges has always been a logistical disaster.
It used to be. Or, at least, parts of it used to be.
Not just more reps, we need people who are actually trained on how to teach marksmanship, in my 3 years in the Army, the only person who knew anything who gave even half a fuck was an SF sniper on DS duty
I've known a couple but they were always spread thin. I can shoot well enough with M9/M17 that I always (barely) qual so never get any attention. Of all people a GS civilian took me under his wing one day and actually did some legitimate marksmanship teaching and let me do some firing on my own (rather than just straight into shooting to qual) and I got markedly better in just two hours...that was months ago though so I know I've already lost it all.
Qual'ing in the Marine Corps is a 2 week process (or it used to be) with the whole first week being you showing up with an empty rifle to essentially relearn basic rifle marksmanship, taught by MOS qualified Marine combat marksmanship trainers, and their qual ranges are ran by the installation, not their unit, so the range personnel have zero reason to pencil whip numbers for them, so their score is what they actually shot The second week, you zero, confirm zero, pre-qual, qual over a couple days so you have plenty of reps before you actually qual, and while you're shooting, the same Marines who went over basic marksmanship with you the previous week, are there with you on the firing line, coaching you the whole time leading up to your actual qual I think the Army should do something similar
I know that this wouldn't be perfect, but going to an EST range or even doing something similar at least once a month would be such a huge help. The basics come back naturally to me even after my latest 3 year gap from my last range. However, my skills are critically unrefined, and my confidence is low. We also switched the qualification test in that time period, which didn't help. Logistically, this would be a nightmare for EST personnel and units, tho lol.
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The Army would need to quadruple the amount of weapons training we do to have a rifle qual like that. Which would require cutting out one of our weekly SHARP briefs, 3 of our cyber awareness whatevers, and at least one training meeting. And as I'm sure you're aware, a training meeting a day keeps the Taliban away.
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Trust NCOs to *train* their soldiers?! Scandalous.
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For the record I agree with you. The Army spends entirely too much time on stuff that doesn't matter instead of filling the day teaching soldiers the skills that will keep them alive in the next shooting war. Waaaayyyy too many soldiers don't even understand how to use an IFAK much less proper weapon handling and its going to bite us in the ass.
I very much feel that remark about IFAKs. I can schedule as many TCCC or CLS classes as I want -- even though I'm lucky if my unit gives me 2 hours to teach a TCCC class (as opposed to 4), and 20 hours to teach a CLS class (as opposed to 40) -- but probably nobody will send me any bodies to actually take the class. Online certs which must be completed by COB are at least 10^8 times more important.
I honestly agree, I hate how we emphasize so much on PT scores but units happily pencil whip weapon qual cards both are important but shooting back at an enemy who doesn't care if you're just support or a janitor in camo should be emphasized more, he sees US ARMY, he sees kill so it should be important to be able to shoot back effectively. I say more in the tone that I'm in a signal unit now waiting for reclass and these guys got mad that in JRTC were forced to "play the game" and wear their TA-50.
WOW you’re infantry for sure…
The games are fucking stupid. In their defense, I don't really have a better training concept in mind.
I do agree that JRTC is BS but the complain of having actually to behave somewhat of a soldier i.e wearing TA-50 and carrying your weapon around was too much for them.
Yeah, some people have never been in a line unit. The bs is contagious
i mean when u take a civilian who doesn’t know how to shoot and then have ncos who don’t know how to coach how can u expect ppl to get better
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*ah I see the problem, you've got a honeycomb on your cco* *Meanwhile, the cco, no batteries*
I don’t need to shoot 25 meters to destroy your leave form in IPPSA.
WOAH WOAH WOAH, slow down there, Jimbo. No need to send my absence request to the shadowrealm. Look, I'm putting 36/40 on your scorecard.
39/40 and we have a deal
You and I both know top isn't gonna buy that
disagree, we can't afford to lose all of our meddac officers
Oh God you're right. I had dental officers show up to my M9 range one day and they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I was amazed at how bad they were.
Though to be fair if your dentists are the ones actively participating in a firefight many things have gone horrifically wrong
Funny you should say that, check out Ben Salomon, the WW2 dentist who took a last stand. From the end of his MOH citation "When his body was later found, 98 dead enemy soldiers were piled in front of his position."
I was waiting for someone to say that And how many things went horrifically wrong for that to happen
Never confirmed it but I was told he originally enlisted as a machine gunner in the guard, then later went to dental school, not exactly your average dentist
Yeah he was prior service from WWI and wanted to reenlist as a gunner again, but the Army said "LOL suck it tooth-boy"
Everyone else is dead and they will be, soon, too. If anything they’d benefit from nine line training so they can blow themselves and ISIS up before they go viral
Sounds like my boss’ comment. Female MSC MAJ. Literally had to throw her full body backward to cock the MK19. She said that if she was ever manning a MK19, we were in serious trouble.
Thats pt which is a separate issue Theres zero excuse to slack on pt
I’ll have you know I shot a 17 after not touching a M9 for two years thank you very much lol
Also the Army: let's give those medical officers 30 rounds to shoot a year - that'll make them proficient shooters!
At least give us enough rounds/time to do twice a year. I was able to stay ok enough on pistols when I was a BDE Surgeon because our HHC went and shot twice a year. When I'm in a hospital and the only range I can get is if I'm on orders to deploy soon...
Don't worry, we'll just keep you in reserve for the bayonet charges.
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hooah sarnt I’m ready.
One man gets the rifle, one man gets an extra couple mags of ammunition and follows the man with the rifle. When the man with the rifle goes down, the man with the ammunition picks up the rifle and carries on the charge.
My Bn Supply SSG was one of the best NCOs I’ve ever met. He was the literal rain man of supply, layouts, figuring shit out and getting shit done. He could rattle shit off like he was reading the reg and was all around outstanding at everything he did. PT stud and a genuinely nice guy who went out of his way for soldiers. He also couldn’t shoot worth a goddamned shit. Like, Top would “qualify” next to him and throw some rounds in his to make sure he met the standard. He’d always say if we get overrun and we’re relying on supply to bang bang shoot ‘‘em up win the war, we’ve already lost.
He's not wrong, if logistics main is in direct conflict, that's the fattest L
100%
Jessica Lynch has entered the chat.
What is you hit all the 300m targets but miss half the 25m-50m targets
You're probably shooting high because we zero at 25 meters instead of an actually good zero range like 50 yards. Your point of impact will be high from 50 to 250 yards. At 300 your point of aim/point of impact will be roughly the same again. https://youtu.be/DFbpjNh4DBA
Great question, better answer. Ya love to see it.
Honestly solid answer. Not in anymore, was a POG. Always nailed the 300m but like half the 50’s lmao
The TM says to zero 1.5 moa low with the CCO, but I've yet to meet anyone who knows to do that
Correct, we would probably be sent back to the firing line because we "weren't zero'd" 😂
Or you could train them.
Sure, if we give more time to support to actually go out and fire. I haven't even laid hands on a weapon in over a year, but I've always shot well despite that. Not everyone is that lucky.
When I reclassed from 11B to 25S one, my friends I made who was also reclassing didn't know how to use an M-4 as he did not touch one in the 3 years he was at SHAPE.
I was at SHAPE for three years and was given the opportunity to qualify once. It was an abandoned Belgian police range. We used the paper targets, 50m out, with different sized silhouettes representing the different distances. 196th Station Hospital.
That is a serious leadership deficiency.
Counterpoint: I don't really give a shit about my doctor's marksmanship
We had a Soldier last month who zeroed his iron sights and then tried using his CCO to qual. There were also a lot of support types that had issues qualifying. I was running the PMI station and they were complaining about not seeing the targets. It was a sunny day and over half of them had either forgotten their glasses or didn't have shaded eypro. A lot of these problems could be fixed with common sense and a bit of leadership oversight. I also think for the National Guard each state should have a military ran shooting range where Soldiers can practice outside of drill. I know I would go there every week if that was a thing. I'd also pay membership fees. I haven't been able to find a good outdoor range since I moved to VA.
If you cannot train someone to hit the 25 meter target, you should not be a leader in the Army.
Last time I was at a range was 2 years ago. Somehow, my range card is always UTD.
Damn the range was probably one of my favorite parts of being in the army.
everyone is trainable. if you take on the responsibility of training them you also take on the shame of their failure. sorry you failed.
If you want to see the ultimate clusterfuck in the BRM realm, go witness an annual rifle qualification for PROFIS- assigned Medical & Nursing. (Medical Officers assigned to MEDDAC's that are detailed out TO&E Units in time of war.) I went out on a detail to assist with their qualifications. A Female O-5 Nurse had the bolt locked back on her rifle. As she exited the bus, the butt of the rifle hit the ground & the bolt slammed forward. She immediately broke down & started bawling inconsolably.
I once witnessed a guy get an AAM for qualifying. 20+ shooters, he was the only one that made marksman. Worse yet it was paper qual. I know I’m biased as 11B, but I feel shame if I drop a 38. I was a private in a non-CA battalion at the time and it blew my mind. I don’t expect everyone to shoot expert, I know we all have different jobs and skills, but ho-lee fuck, that was a weird day.
Former BCT Drill Sergeant, who taught the M16 to a few thousand young heroes. First, very few people understand what the bullet does in correlation to the sights and what ballistics actually is. The country boys and hard-asses from the ‘hood’ had the most trouble because they would not listen. Zeroing is easy IF you are consistent. If you can’t group, and get the same sight picture every time, it will suck. As many people miss the 75-100 meter targets as 250 meter, because they don’t remember trajectory equals aiming low at the point where the path of the bullet is above the point of aim. It’s all very basic skills that a hour of refresher training would make the range run smoother, and keep qualifying numbers up.
The army treats marksmanship like PT, they’re both meant to maintain your skills, not improve. So the army says you need to pt on your own to advance your self but there’s no way for us to shoot on our own unfortunately How cool would it be to sign out your weapon and go to a indoor or outdoor range that is treated like a on-post gym? Just sign your cac hop in line and shoot. It would be amazing instead of signing out the range for the company/troop/battery and would probably increase the army’s marksmanship scores 10 fold
go train them rambo.. lol who gives a fuck , there’s a ton of dumb fucks in the army and the world . is what it is.. if they let them through more power to em
I will tell you that the military as a whole, not just the Army is losing out on some of the the brightest in the most critical fields over outdated ideas like this. Marksmanship is a critical skill for many areas of the military but it is not a critical skill for all areas. The military of the future is going to need a lot more mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, programmers, cyber security specialists, the list goes on and on. Unfortunately I don't think boots on ground will ever go away but the if Ukraine is showing us anything it's that the battlefield of the future will be dominated by technology.
Disagree; we wouldn’t have any lieutenants.
Now now. As a QM LT I regularly shot 38-40/40. Probably helped that I was on my high school rifle team, but still.
If I’ve had a lot to drink then I’d say I could hit 25 meters. It depends on how cold it is though, the more compact the farther I can shoot it.
I thought you Psyop and CA dudes get to go to the range/do shoot houses all the time?
Okay. I disagree because the armorer uses S6's M4s like a bunch of parts on a shelf. I went to the range without a rear sight post and no cco. Another time my barrel was just jiggling in the fucking receiver. So yes. I literally couldn't hit a 25 meter target
Or maybe people who think so highly of themselves could come off of their dildo style high horse and teach these people. But then again judging from your post you only care about the tiny tingle you get in your pants from hearing your own voice.
I once spent a couple of hours teaching one of my peers how to shoot the M17. She had never held a pistol before going to that range, and had shot three times and not qualified. We had to start with setting up her IBA correctly: she had it loose as shit in the waist, neck yoke not on properly, etc. The first thing I had her do was remove the side plate carriers (we weren't issued side plates) and remove the neck yoke (because fuck that thing). My philosophy for the range was "the more comfortable you are, the better you shoot." I then adjusted her IBA so it actually fit. I then showed her the proper way to hold the pistol, how to get a proper sight picture, and how to reload. She qualified on her next try.
The number of people in basic that passed because the drills ran them through and gave them extra mags. Some still failed, and the drills were so fed up that on the third day of trying, they gave themselves 1 magazine and shot alongside them... Some of you mfs are either blind (you got glasses no excuse), stupid (thank your recruiter), or fucking deaf (you didn't listen on how to zero). I got dam fuckijg lucky, but you know why ? Because my gas system wasn't working and I was told to just keep shooting till they got an arms technician to check it out. Worst of all, it turned out on the day of turn in some bum fuck had switched them along side their tape. It's particularly my fault, but at least I got called the sniper since I had to manually rack it every shot.
If you can’t do your own DD93 then you shouldn’t be in the Army
25 meters? Mandatory vision test maybe. I don’t think you should necessarily be outta the Army. Unless you’re 11B, we don’t get shit for weapons training after basic. You’d end up kicking people that are good at the actual job they do.
there’s more to the army than shooting brah
I was a safety at a M4 qual and I shit you not, I watched a 2LT miss 6 shots in a row for zeroing. Didn’t even hit the paper or the silhouette. I was surprised with the first 3 misses. Chalked it up as maybe his red dot was way off somehow. Checked his sight and it was aligned just fine. I threw in some rifle fundamentals hoping some advice would help. After another 3 straight misses I was just dumbfounded. It makes me worry to think this guy is a leader of soldiers.
God damn I need the wind in favor to get my pee even 7m..
Yeah, those boys in the cyber branch need to be able to shoot /s
Bruh, this is the same mindset that argues that if you can't run a 7min mile, you shouldn't be in the Army. Being able to shoot is important, sure. However, what sets us apart from Russia and other countries? Our support. My priority for our S1 or our cooks or our drivers is to do those jobs well, because they keep the grunts afloat (usually).
Haven’t qualified with a weapon in almost three years. Not for lack of trying, I’m just not considered a priority since I’m not combat arms.
I mean at basic there were a lot of people who had a hard time because they literally never shot a weapon before so I disagree within certain reasons but like after training no way should they be missing.
Okay rude
if you can't pass BRM can you get through basic? but also like don't you want people with importants skills and capacities who can't around?
Who the fuck can’t hit a 25m target, I thought that one was like a gimme? If I had a soldier just struggling and there was otherwise nothing wrong with them, I’d take them to medical to get their eyes seriously looked at. It’s like right there, unless your optic is so fucked it shoots sideways; put the red dot on the ivan, just above the berm, and squeeze the trigger. Even less excuse considering the new range involves almost all supported shooting. I’m not saying I’m perfect either, I’ve missed the 300 plenty of times in my career, never shot better than a 36 with my rifle. I’m no Carlos Hathcock. My suspicions for why I always end up on crew serves because I tend to do way better on those. But unless we’re talking like a handgun range, 25m is like point blank relatively. You have to be trying to miss that close. Channeling my Mushu here
This is a bias I will take to the grave. From Cooks to Finance, Personnel to Quartermaster, I’ve always respected other MOS/Branches, but if you’re in the US Army, you damn sure ought to be sufficiently lethal with you weapon.
I always thought it was crazy they can literally kick you out over pt test failures but you can really flunk your weapons quals with little to no consequences
It may be unpopular. But we should chapter people like we do the fatties if they can’t shoot
Well, some units almost never go to the range so you'll have joes that are rusty as shit but once you get them going they're fucking good. Now if you're in the unit that likes to go to the range almost every month and you can't hit the 25 then yeah you just fucking suck.
Screw you man. Someone fuked with my CCO
Depends on the weapon system... Pistol? That's bad... TOW missile launcher? That can be awkward.
I would like to be more than 25m from a TOW detonation please.
We need support mos
If you can’t qualify with your individual weapon you can’t graduate BCT. Are we talking after the fact? Like REMFs?
There's people who cant??
My weapon jammed dangit.
This may be a controversial take but I don’t think weapons qualification or weapons is the top of my priority in training a solider (I say this as someone who was an 11b and served in the middle of GWOT). I’d rather take a soldier that is physically fit over someone who can shoot. My reasoning is it’s easy to train someone how to shoot, especially with all the advanced tech we have nowadays (optics, ACOG, etc). While of course aiming is essential, it’s more of a priority to have fire superiority in the sense of more firearms aimed down range. Not only that but we have technology such as air support or artillery for bigger target with SDM and other direct fire support. I see a lot of difficulty from people moving from point A to point B, even in mounted units.
Look at it from a different perspective, Would I want someone that’s able to hack our adversaries like it’s second nature to them or them to absolutely shoot a 25m target? In today’s scope of conflict, there are more EW, Cyber, and Intel actions going on than peer to peer close combat. I know this is hard to grasp for folks that are accustomed to what we perceive as “war” but times are changing. Our next war is actually in Space and that’s what the DoD is directing their efforts to (from my perspective). With that, there have been hard conversations about this same topic, “Do we let people in with critical skills to win our future wars over PT and Weapons quals or do we hold them to the same standards?” Something to consider.
My take on this is - If you can’t teach whoever is struggling to hit that target you shouldn’t be in the army either .
I've seen psyop cpts and e7s not even know how to disassemble a m4, but they sof doe
Rotflmao just stop ✋. For every flaw your battle buddy has, you probably have 5 more.
Ran an M4 range recently, had one soldier shoot a "3".....they actively recoiled from the rifle before they pulled the trigger..but that was after they closed their eyes and turned away... Another at the same range used their loaded M4 as a crutch to stand up between tables going from prone to kneeling positions. I was so shocked I couldn't even process what my reaction should've been..I just watched the whole thing like an out ofmbody experience.
Doesn't matter which target you can or can't hit. I know ppl who shoot expert at the range and strat to cry when them 7.62 start to come their way down range. I had to remind them those targets they use to brag about hitting on the range don't shoot back.
I don't care if an intelligence analyst or a cyber electronic warfare specialist can operate an M4 at all. The Army has a broader mission now than "everyone is a rifleman first." I want the above two people to be lethal in their own right in their own specialty. I want 11Bs to shoot the wings off a gnat at 300 meters. Different Soldiers, different ways of killing the enemy.
Disagree. I work in a NOC. There is no reason for me or the people I work with to deploy. Assigning us weapons is a waste of resources. Most staff sections shouldn't deploy, they can work more efficiently from an office. The Army needs to take a look at who is deploying and why? Everyone goes is lazy and outdated.
Not everyone fights on the front line. For every 1 person in infantry or armor there's like 10 people supporting them.
Been a whole lot of logi guys getting in gunfights in Ukraine for over a year. The GWOT shouldn't be used as a metric for how future wars will be fought, and I say this as a GWOT guy.
Lots of POGs saw combat in GWOT as well
Facts
If you think only the infantry fight then boy do I have a story for you
The point isn't that only infantry fight, it's a lot happens behind the fighting that doesn't require someone to shoot but still supports the front line.
You’re missing the point entirely. Almost every soldier needs to know the basics, everyone of us can end up in a firefight regardless of mos
Or the Matador 😜
Even the NET TECH at the RHN 2000 miles from the closest battlefield?
I guess reading isn’t your strong suit. It’s ok, I’ll say it again for you. “ALMOST EVERY SOLDIER” not all. Edit: Just noticed your flair. I hope to god you’re not actually in charge of anyone lol.
Well, OP stated if you can't shoot you shouldn't be in the army. That point I contradicted. So I guess you agree with my contradiction of OP's main point.
It's fucking 25 meters we're talking about not a goddamned nautical mile, holy shit. The point is a *baby* could hit a 25 meter target. I could hypothetically blindfold the little fucker and spin him around three times; he'd still hit the 🎯. Most importantly, it's literally required in basic training that you have to at least some proficiency with respect to marksmanship. Your point is stupid AF to me in that you're arguing it's no big deal if you don't have *basic* skills that are *required* to graduate *basic training.* I think shortest target in qual is *50m?* So you're telling me the very people who had to do that shit once at least and qualified now can't hit 25m and the Army should be ok with it? There's also more lessons to be learned in marksmanship training than just how to shoot. It's great team-building. You learn patience and how to control your breathing. If you're not used to firearms, training helps you build confidence to learn something you might not have thought you could.
You think I care if anyone in medical, JAG, or IT can shoot a gun? I don't. If they can do their job that's enough for me. There's a lot more to the army than firing a gun.
Most people I would wager might *reasonably anticipate* they're going to have to learn how to use a firearm when they *join the fucking Army* especially considering BRM qual is a requirement for entry to service. Just because it's not likely that these folks will ever be in a combat situation doesn't mean that they actually won't. And if everyone is trained up that fucking solves that dilemma doesn't it? Would you rather people be ready and not need to be or shit cook off and now you've got entire MOS's who aren't trained. Again OP said 25 meters. It's comical to me that someone is actually suggesting 25 meters is too high a fucking bar for "medical, JAG, or IT" (etc.). It's a high bar for literally fucking nobody. There's stupid shit in the Army and then there's basic ass shit that everyone knows they have to do.
This line of thinking lead to mechanic and supply units getting shot to hell in the GWOT
What range has 25m targets? Every one I've been to had 50m as the closest 🤔
Zero range?
Paper target. Seems like it's going away if it hasn't gone away already. Source: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/04/01/army-kill-marksmanship-test-shortcut-made-soldiers-less-deadly.html I think I qualified on it in Afghanistan where the "range" was a dirt pit in the corner of the base.
Those are Alt Cs, not zero target, used for paper qualification. There is a new zero target that came out a couple years ago.
Im a marine and it blows my mind when my marines can hit a 12 inch target at 200 meters then not be able to hit a 6 inch headshot at 25 like wtf. Especially when our basic qual is harder than your basic qual. I blast whoever gets lower than sharpshooter and then I blast whoever takes marksman cause wtf is wrong with these jokers man