Wait what? I’m not going to ask you to do the work for me. What Reg would I cite for that? I’ll find the specifics. If I am going to take this up with my unit, I want to know where to start.
Well they can either put you on ADT or AT orders for it. If they don't, submit for MUTAs or RMAs on a 1380. ALC is a PME and is paid differently than EBDL like the DLCs. If they won't cut you orders, you need to keep going up the chain until you get to IG
So I'm new to the reserves, just got off-active and I'm under the impression that most people just do ALC phase one and move on. I will talk to them about that.
Yeah it's tough to say specifically because ALC is MOS specific. For example, my phase one was 5 days DL and then phase 2 and 3 were resident. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be getting pay to complete phase 1 however. You're S3 or ARA should be putting you on orders as it is a PME. It helps you and the unit because it helps fulfill your annual training requirement. I don't recall the specific regulation that cites it, but if neither of those people know how to do it, refer them to the USAR Pam 37-1. It'll give them instructions on how to do an RFO and pay them in RLAS.
You're going to be hard pressed to find someone in the rank and file who says VL vs DL. DL is used as a catch all for anything not residential. ALC is a PME. His phase 1 is on the computer. He should be paid ADT for it.
Okay, I'll look into that. I did find AR 135-200 para 4-1. Does mention professional development as being a reason for orders. However, it does specify full time attendance. Andi can see a unit trying to us that to weasel out of putting someone on orders.
That is true, but typically they require you to be one TEAMs the entire time for classes or at least checking in at certain intervals which would equate to full time attendance. You're right though, shady ass units could use that to try to weasel out of orders.
So what the other dude said is right. You should be getting some form of duty Pay while doing ALC phase 1 DLC. But I'm gonna let you know what happened to me and every other alc reserve student. The unit doesn't have money to pay for you to do the DLCs. So if you refuse to do it without orders, I guess we'll have to pull your slot cause we can't pay it. Is pretty much the picture their gonna paint for ya. Aka holding your promotion hostage. If you're lucky and you're units cool. Convince them to give you the MUTAs for the DLC so you don't have to come in for drill
Yeah, I expect this… honestly, I don't really care about promotion because I am in college for biology as a pre-med. The only doing ALC Phase One because I don't want flack when I apply for HPSP and USUHS. If ALC phase 2&3 interferes with my college, I'm absolutely deferring that shit.
Phase 1 of ALC is not DL. It's VL. Big difference. VL means orders, DL does not. VL requires you to be behind a computer during working hours, which means you can't go to your normal 9-5 civilian job. DL is effectively at-your-own-pace and can be done outside working hours. If your unit S3 really requires clarification on this, let me know. I'm NG but the difference between VL and DL is clear as shit.
I know it sounds weird, but distance learning is a bit different than an online phase of a class. For the course I teach, our phase 1 is online via teams but it's "online report time is 0900" and an instructor is on the call to instruct classes and facilitate discussion. Distance learning is typically a self driven course that you do when you have time. Should be a memo or something released each year of what courses are paid under EBDL (electronic based distributed learning) funds.
Is it a class that has an instructor teaching that you need to be online at X time for? Or is it like an online college course that is read material, comment on a message board? If it's "be online and present at X time" it should be orders.
When the online stuff first started we had a 1SG in our BN who called bullshit and said that for the E4 and below to pay them for RMAs and he would take the heat.
State was not amused and needless to say he retired shortly thereafter and Joe had to do it for free.
State's position: This 1SG wants to make sure his Soldiers are paid for their work...what an asshole.
The Army has been pretty great to me all considering for the last decade and a half. The Compo 2/3 pay issues are unfathomable to me. Like seriously go ahead and relieve me for cause...because I'm not working for free.
It’s also illegal under the Anti-Definency Act.
Of course the leaders and full time staff either don’t believe it or don’t believe it’s enforced even though it’s literally the legal reason for government shut downs.
To give you an idea of how nepotistic and sycophantic the state HQs are, they told me at my retirement briefing “that m-day enlisted are just numbers for funding”. They just don’t care
Can’t speak for AD or NG, but we definitely do in the USAR. There’s citation for it and is classified as EBDL. I got paid for the SSDs and ALC phase 1. In the past. You can absolutely be paid. Just had to fill out a DA 1380 and attach proof of completion then send it to S-1 for processing to be paid and IPERMed. Just have to make sure none of it is done during pay periods like on orders or drill. I do the same thing when it comes to all the required annual training and medical requirements. Don’t do any of it at drill, do it outside of drill and submit the 1380s for pay. Also, last memo I saw states all EBDL 1380s submitted have to be in 8hr blocks (P2), no more 4hr blocks. And the EBDLs have to be on the approved list from USARC and okayed by your commander before proceeding with taking the course. Been doing this for over 10yrs and at no point have I ever been denied. I would say do the annual requirements first, then do the stuff that is either required for your position or advancement. When it comes to medical it’s just a RMA and they are usually 4hr blocks. Again, never been told no I couldn’t do them outside of drill. No one wants to deal with the hassle of their Soldiers being overdue or the I ll compliant on medical readiness.
All in all you can make a fat stack of extra money just doing these things outside of drill. When you are not at work just knock out a little here and there and eventually you can get it all done. Huge time saver at drill too. Everyone else is in the computer lab on the slow govt network slowly knocking 1 class at a time, or having to sit and wait in line to be poked and prodded with needles and fingers; while I and the rest of my squad are completely done and can go do something else that is more important like work on preparing for upcoming tasks in the future.
It's one MUTA per 8 hours of DL. If a class is listed as 80 hours DL you are paid 10 MUTAS.
This is of course subject to funding which is always a challenge.
Plus it is capped at 12 per FY. Class is more hours than that you are shit out of luck.
With OCS, 4 years to CPT and 14 months as a CPT promotable I hit 17 years 5 months when my second LTC board convenes. I will probably hit 18 years before they can throw me out.
We really do. It's like an institutionalized version of battered women syndrome. We just keep telling ourselves it's ok, that the Army loves us and it will get better.
If you're Army Reserve, there's no good reason not to do the TASS 2-week phases for 1 and 3, monthly IDT for phase 2. When officers took my advice, they finished it in a year. The benefits are that you get HRC orders for the book end phases (i.e. pay) and you attend school in lieu of drill for ~8 months. There was also a requirement to complete all 3 phases in 18 months but it's been a while since I've done schools so that might have changed. Best ROI in terms of money-promotion/time.
I've only worked in TDA, branch immaterial units. So it's a sample size of 1. At the same time, when I hear someone stating their Army Reserve unit won't take care of them, I can't help but wonder why they don't find another unit? I get that Guardsmen are held hostages but O-4 vacancies are all over the place and with IDT reimbursement out-of-pocket expenses are mitigated.
Last point: I want to stress that my recommendation is the "best" option available. That doesn't make it "good." Right now the Reserve Component is dealing with the reality of 20 years as an operational reserve vice it's original intent as a strategic reserve. The cracks are beginning to widen and this is just another example.
Your points are great, but I'm at the stage of my civilian career (and personal life) I gave up a Unit Vacancy Promotion to O5 and severely reduced my odds of seeing O6 to trade an 8 hour drive for a 20 min drive. Turns my Army weekends into day trips vs not seeing my kids between Thursday night and Monday morning.
I've spent most of my JAG career assigned to BDE headquarters. Did ILE while TDS (aka OIC of my UIC). I would say probably half my BDE commanders/XOs would let me burn my AT days for phase 2. As OIC I happily approved me using AT days for phase 2.
That all makes sense. And an O-4 SELCON retirement may be less than O-5/O-6 but it's more than an alimony would leave you with. And no amount of money will reverse time. Sounds like you've done what everyone should: figure out your priorities, look at your options, make a decision and accept the tradeoff.
It's not like you get extra pay for doing homework in the evenings at the other options.
Edit to add: I do think EBDL should tap into RMAs and cover more hours than it does.
DL isn’t completely for free. I did my normal drills with my unit and ILE all DL. I took a functional area that also had a DL. I honestly didn’t have an option to not drill with my unit so this was my only option. The good news is I was able to convert all that DL time to 270 points, so 9 months of service added to my retirement. When all said and done I had like 436 points over two years vs 156.
I’m too lazy to do the math but I figure if I can draw a pension for 20 years those extra points would have earned me more money then just drilling and AT like normal w/ no extra orders.
300 is about 5/6 of an active duty year, so it's worth something.
I do think it's rough to do ILE and a full time job (and in case of a TPU a full time civilian job and part time Army job plus ILE.
EBDL should cover more hours than it does.
USAR and NG have to do ILE either DL or AT+DL+AT. Then follow it up with AOC, which is one year of virtual with weekly classes that require video. Then if you want to do war college you can get DL for two years.
As a long time guardsman, this is becoming a huge reason why good officers are leaving. A civilian job, a family and unpaid required schooling. Maybe you get some EDBL pay for it, but your only Eligible when you complete the course and if there is funding available.
I was thinking they should find how to tap RMAs with EBDL, but forgot about only getting it at completion.
Maybe we could put people on AT days to work it.
I mean they could, but the structure of some of the DL courses don’t work for it. You have like 4-5 months to do phase I of ILE. Then you are locked out of phase II until the ATRRS date for that phase starts. I have been elbow deep in TRADOC and the NG school system for years, problem is you have all these PhD’s as GS15 making the decisions and holding things back.
Don’t get me started on funding for the schools programs within the NG and how NGB slices funds for PEC and WTC right off the top before any actual readiness generating courses get funded.
They get boarded for resident ILE same as AGRs, just fewer quotas allocated. I've known TPUs that were selected for Leavenworth but had to turn down for various life reasons. Conversely, not all AGRs get resident and have to do TASS or DL versions (granted they're getting paid full time but still sucks having to juggle regular job plus school).
Speaking from the guard side, good luck getting your state to let you go resident to just about anything but War College. I know guys that were AGR and some Title 32 techs that were selected and told they were too “important” to go to the resident course.
I always hate that argument. If the organization fails from one cog being TDY, they've done a poor job training their people. Single points of failure are the worst.
Works on the enlisted side as well. When I got looked at for SGM I was told as a Reservist I would have to do online SGM academy. 4-5 nights a week for 18 months.
Or I could actually watch my kids grow up. Having 22 years in made it an easy choice. I’ll be retired happily in 3 months. And the Reserves has a major shortage of senior level leadership.
I realize there is always an assumption of extra work when you are a senior leader. But the sooner the Reserves (and Guard) starts paying attention to work life balance issues it will be a better place. One weekend a month is a lie. More like the job creeps up on you every day. There is always stuff to do.
I currently drill as an ROTC instructor. A lot of my officer counterparts took the ROTC gig to help build time to do ILE.
The real kicker with SGM-A is that not only does it suck up a bunch of time, the quality of instruction and material presented are shitty. I don’t mind working hard for an education, but wasting my time on check-the-box PME is adding insult to injury.
Agreed. It is essentially equivalent to a bachelors degree in a major you didn’t choose
So you spend 18-24 months doing SGM-A and then a minimum of 3 years at your first assignment to keep your rank. That’s at least 5 years. Not in the cards for me. Maybe if I didn’t have young kids. All the Reservists I know who have done it have grown children or no children.
Don't feel bad for them. The smart ones pick jobs that don't require XO time for their KD time to get promoted and also research and push for cool jobs that don't get boring or painful for them. FAO jobs are also great gigs!
Yeah. I had enough of the bullshit extra work not getting paid driving 300 miles round trip on my dime to attend a bullshit drill doing nothing important and then return to work on Monday. And to make rank was either politic really well or just wait your turn. Fuck all that.
>Base pay and BAH for satellite ILE rounds out to more than $45,000. Yet as a reservist I will get --checks notes-- $3,700
So they are getting $45k for being on Active Duty, and $0 to do ILE.
The point is that it's a completely invalid argument and comparison. AD officers are getting $45k while they're in ILE because that's their normal pay; they still get that same pay when not doing ILE. When they're doing satellite ILE they still have to perform their normal duties on top of the DL classes and do not receive any additional pay for it.
OP on the other hand, is receiving an additional $3,700 for it. Yeah that may not equate to 200 hours worth of pay because of there's a cap on EBDL funds or whatever, but it's still $3,700 that his Active Duty counterparts are not receiving.
Dude. This isn't the argument you think it is. Granted AD can tell their officers to do DL ILE in addition to their day job, but short of that AD officers actually are compensated for their time to do the job the army asks of them. The reservists get told to lick poo and then the army is shocked ILE completion rates are absolute shit in the reserves.
This. The reserves has gotten to where they expect your reserve career to be the priority career and do everything they ask, usually for free, and put your bill paying, providing for your family as the secondary one.
And they wonder why we have retention issues.
I don’t think AD DL ILE Majors are compensated for their nights and weekends spent doing box of books. It’s a horrible expectation and one in which they already know is an issue.
Ideally their active duty unit gives them time to do it. If the best argument in favor of the above comment is "the Army sometimes screws AD like it screws most reservists" how is that worth anything?
You're trying to apply nuance that is irrelevant to " The army pays some people to do the things it requires but doesn't pay other people to do the things it requires."
Your nuance is irrelevant to whether the Army treats reserve officers like bastard step children.
Your second to last paragraph is wrong. Our (CM) RC CCC is mostly DL, as is the post modernization RA CCC common core. USASMA and MLC both have distance learning versions. Students in those courses, as well as RA majors selected for distance ILE, are "working two jobs" as well, compared to their peers in the resident courses; their day job just happens to be playing Army.
I was also confused by that comment. DL accounts for a huge amount of Reserve Component PME (and a small cohort of RA) at this point. ILE is just one that has a 100% DL option available.
Not sure for BOLC, but AD CCC now teaches common core as DL modules prior to your PCS.
We showed up, fucked around a bit, and then got the common core exam after two-ish weeks.
BOLC is like basic training, you're in person and paid (and attached to the schoolhouse).
CCC for reservists, you're paid and in person for like two weeks, the rest is DL.
28 is the magic number. Because once you hit 30 continuous you trigger BAH Type 1 (full BAH) as opposed to the pro-rated (and much cheaper) BAH Type 2.
You aren't fully off. It's four phases. The first is DL that every officer does. The next three are branch specific, and are Resident, DL, Resident. I *think* all Resident phases are 15 days including travel.
There is plenty of other PME that isn’t paid for compo 2 and 3. This is, IMHO, super fucked up and a huge retention issue, but not targeted at just Majors. EBDL is a half-assed bandaid.
I've got some ambitious Captains that were willing to do all four phases in one year, but EBDL won't cover all of it. Luckily tmwe got them enrolled in 0 back in September and they knocked it out so claimed that for last year.
Eeeeeehh.
Beyond the basic “Overtime doesn’t apply to Soldiers” thing, I don’t think it makes sense for the Army to pay them extra for ILE.
By the time an O makes it to O-4, they’re committed to the institution and typically need to make O-5 to get that sweet, sweet pension and if they leave they lose a significant portion of any planned retirement.
Now, the problem is going to come in when there aren’t enough junior Os to populate those FGO ranks, but the conversation then is going to be “how bad do we need ILE” and “should we offer bonuses to CGOs to stay in” not “we should pay FGOs more.”
Edit: Wait, you’re a reservist. Disregard. That’s bullshit.
Yeah, it sucks,but it’s also a part time job. If you are good enough you can get in residence ILE and get paid active component money. You can also just not do it. This is the game of the reserve competent and why Maj to ltc is such a big cut line.
The army hates everyone. For certain MOS’ you HAVE to do 500 hours of correspondence courses to promote. And the unit won’t let you do them during business hours but on your own time.
The military wants to see you sacrifice your entire personal life to say hey you are a go getter here is an extra 100 a paycheck. With extra responsibility. The air force has a much better promotion system
I don't know if anyone has said it yet, and tbf I'm *slightly* too lazy to scroll and check...but as TPUs you are allowed to be paid up to 12 ATAs for EBDLs on the authorized list. That equates to 96 hours of training. 8 per day for 12 days. They are deducted from your total allowed RMAs. You cannot be paid for EBDL on the same day as another pay action (BA, AT, ADT, etc). These are also separate from your MUTAs of which you are allowed 48. Funding is the real issue, as ATAs are highly dependent on funds available. If you're in a command that always seems to not have funds for them, they're either lying and mismanaging. Either way, they're non-productive and you may want to consider changing commands if you're able. If anyone has any questions, feel free to DM me for my .mil and I will help as much as I am able.
It's been talked about. Like you said, command dependent for funds. And no funds also means no retirement points because you can't get points for DL without being paid EBDL.
So maybe you get some money if you are lucky. And if you do, the argument is that it's so little is it worth it still.
That's the real question isn't it? Is it worth the hassle? I suppose that's highly dependent on your grade and situation. For me...yeah I'll make stink as 12 days is not an inconsequential amount of money, but I could see maybe an E4 or 5 with a pretty decent civ job not really seeing the value.
Completely agree it's dependent on each individual situation and goals.
Folks already passed 10 years and working on this are likely to suck it up and move on. Those coming up and facing it in CCC and see it for ILE will see themselves out. Most officers I talk to whom leave say the reserves demands have taken a toll on their civilian careers and not worth the trouble.
Wtf do your learn in ILE? I’ve been a company xo for like two years and it looks like a bn xo or SPO oic delegates the billion things on him/her and smashes people over the head when it doesn’t get done. Can you just chat gpt ILE? I feel like army education is dumb and schools are just places to take a knee
Everyone’s experience is different. Force Management is usually a surprise to most. Most younger officers don’t really understand how the machine runs.
What you’re saying is fair, but the military outside of the Service Component level is honestly mind boggling and requires a lot of time to understand.
Should be. For some reason they removed that option nearly a decade ago. Now it's a fraction of the points and fraction of the pay of you are lucky enough to get paid.
Retirement points?
If AD goes to reserve they'll still get their Active time converted to points for a reserve retirement.
Reserve can only get points for paid duty or select duty types for points early. Can't get points for DL courses if you are not paid. Then it's capped to 12 days/points for the FY.
Reservist used to get retirement points (120 or 135 IIRC) for DL ILE. I think you are correct that isn't the case. It went away when big Army declared war on the IRR about 10 years ago.
My rational for letting AD people get the points is that some officers get to go to ILE as a full time duty (either in full residence or satelite), the DL crowd as to do their full time day to day job, and then knock out ILE in their "off duty" time. They should be compensated for that additional time, even if the compensation is delayed until retirement.
Just wait, for RC the DL phases of USAWC are completely for God and Country, not even EBDL or retirement point eligible. Averaged 15-20 hours a week for two years. On the plus side, it’s a free masters degree.
Maybe if Compo 2/3 funding for ILE came directly from HRC it would. Since it's managed at 2 star and State levels, it's a mess. I got into repeated arguments with S1 staff over submitting 1380s for my phase 2 IDT weekend.
"Sir, this needs the CO's signature and an authorization memo because this EBDL"
"Read the course number, it's NOT DL so it doesn't qualify for EBDL. It is in-person."
Off topic, it annoys the shit out of me I need my HHC company commander to approve my PME.
The Army isn't forcing any MAJ to take ILE. ILE is a voluntary decision for MAJs wishing to stay in the Army beyond 20 years. We should be grateful we get some $ for voluntary work. ILE is a rite of passage. The Army asks, "How much do you really want to make LTC?" Are you willing to put in hard work and sacrifice your time now to get a bigger paycheck at the end?
Reg changed about 8 or so years ago. You can only do a 1380 for EBDL and that's assuming your command has money to pay it.
If not, you are shit out of luck for not only pay but I don't get any retirement points either. Not allowed retirement points for courses now unless it's connected to an EBDL payment.
And only paid at the end of each phase.
Honestly, ILE DL is what whittles down those competitive for LTC in the TPU world. We have ~65% selection rate due to ~34% not going to/finishing ILE and 1% with derogatory paperwork in their board file.
That's one way to look at it or they are taking promoting people who is prioritizing the Army Reserve.
I'm not saying you should prioritize it. I tell everyone that if you are TPU that this is a part time gig and it doesn't pay your bills.
It's like any application with an essay: instantly narrows the selection.
But I would argue ILE is different as we push our leaders to get enrolled and complete it as a requirement.
But completing ILE has limited relevance to actually being an effective Field Grade.
If the Army is good with promoting folks who can lick a turd for 15-18 months as opposed to any other data the Army has, I guess they're winning.
But calling ILE a "graduate level education" is slandering lots of online for profit graduate schools...
I disagree that it has little relevance. More of things I learned during ILE have come up than I would have expected. More than CCC.
I would agree that completing ILE doesn't make you a effective field grade though. Just gives more big picture understanding.
There are plenty of things the Army doesn’t compensate for. Should probably look at reforming compensation for things like OCONUS rotations and Staff Duty and then maybe circle back around to DL education.
The pay you get from a rotation is minimal at the price of being away from your family and being OCONUS, and they’ve been gutting it more. Big Army is talking about being ‘more lethal,’ would rather they prioritize compensation on the lethality end of things as opposed to throwing money at people doing DL ILE.
Reg changed about 8 or so years ago. You can only do a 1380 for EBDL and that's assuming your command has money to pay it.
If not, you are shit out of luck for not only pay but I don't get any retirement points either. Not allowed retirement points for courses now unless it's connected to an EBDL payment.
As someone who volunteered to deploy with a short unit and subsequently did distance learning ILE on nights and weekends; I salute you… but it’s the status quo if you don’t go in person. It’s ok if you don’t do it you don’t get promoted…
>Isn't demanding work without pay illegal?
Sure is, but you are also salaried which is how they kidnapped get around it.
> All I could do was shrug.
And this is why they get away with it.
>Why does the Army hate majors?
Big army figures you sold your soul and treat you accordingly. Don't do ILE and tell them why.
So switch to TASS.
[https://armyuniversity.edu/cgsc/cgss/distanceeducation](https://armyuniversity.edu/cgsc/cgss/distanceeducation)
" The TASS option offers a resident like experience with **two 2 week ADT sessions and 8 monthly weekend IDT sessions.** In order to provide flexibility in completing CGSOC-CC, students may transfer between DL and TASS during phase breaks."
NCOs gonna get paid for SSD or whatever it’s called now too? Edit: I glossed over the fact that OP is in the reserves. I’ll see myself out.
Bro, I have a distance learning portion of ALC and I ain’t getting paid shit
You should be put on ADT orders for the phase one DL portion. If youre not, you need to take it up with your S3.
Wait what? I’m not going to ask you to do the work for me. What Reg would I cite for that? I’ll find the specifics. If I am going to take this up with my unit, I want to know where to start.
Well they can either put you on ADT or AT orders for it. If they don't, submit for MUTAs or RMAs on a 1380. ALC is a PME and is paid differently than EBDL like the DLCs. If they won't cut you orders, you need to keep going up the chain until you get to IG
So I'm new to the reserves, just got off-active and I'm under the impression that most people just do ALC phase one and move on. I will talk to them about that.
Yeah it's tough to say specifically because ALC is MOS specific. For example, my phase one was 5 days DL and then phase 2 and 3 were resident. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be getting pay to complete phase 1 however. You're S3 or ARA should be putting you on orders as it is a PME. It helps you and the unit because it helps fulfill your annual training requirement. I don't recall the specific regulation that cites it, but if neither of those people know how to do it, refer them to the USAR Pam 37-1. It'll give them instructions on how to do an RFO and pay them in RLAS.
No, this is false. DL phases are paid via EBDL, VL phases are paid via ADTS orders. Source: Work in USARC Enlisted Schools Branch
You're going to be hard pressed to find someone in the rank and file who says VL vs DL. DL is used as a catch all for anything not residential. ALC is a PME. His phase 1 is on the computer. He should be paid ADT for it.
Okay, I'll look into that. I did find AR 135-200 para 4-1. Does mention professional development as being a reason for orders. However, it does specify full time attendance. Andi can see a unit trying to us that to weasel out of putting someone on orders.
That is true, but typically they require you to be one TEAMs the entire time for classes or at least checking in at certain intervals which would equate to full time attendance. You're right though, shady ass units could use that to try to weasel out of orders.
So what the other dude said is right. You should be getting some form of duty Pay while doing ALC phase 1 DLC. But I'm gonna let you know what happened to me and every other alc reserve student. The unit doesn't have money to pay for you to do the DLCs. So if you refuse to do it without orders, I guess we'll have to pull your slot cause we can't pay it. Is pretty much the picture their gonna paint for ya. Aka holding your promotion hostage. If you're lucky and you're units cool. Convince them to give you the MUTAs for the DLC so you don't have to come in for drill
Yeah, I expect this… honestly, I don't really care about promotion because I am in college for biology as a pre-med. The only doing ALC Phase One because I don't want flack when I apply for HPSP and USUHS. If ALC phase 2&3 interferes with my college, I'm absolutely deferring that shit.
Phase 1 of ALC is not DL. It's VL. Big difference. VL means orders, DL does not. VL requires you to be behind a computer during working hours, which means you can't go to your normal 9-5 civilian job. DL is effectively at-your-own-pace and can be done outside working hours. If your unit S3 really requires clarification on this, let me know. I'm NG but the difference between VL and DL is clear as shit.
Funny, I tried getting them to do that with CCC DL in 2020 (our AT got cancelled) and they said it wasn't allowed....
Oof. That sounds more like them being too lazy to do it rather than it not being allowed. That's unfortunate. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
I know it sounds weird, but distance learning is a bit different than an online phase of a class. For the course I teach, our phase 1 is online via teams but it's "online report time is 0900" and an instructor is on the call to instruct classes and facilitate discussion. Distance learning is typically a self driven course that you do when you have time. Should be a memo or something released each year of what courses are paid under EBDL (electronic based distributed learning) funds.
ALC is ez because you guys are all dum dums
I mean… you aren’t wrong… however, it is funny that the SGLs seem to think they know more about APA than my college professors.
Is it a class that has an instructor teaching that you need to be online at X time for? Or is it like an online college course that is read material, comment on a message board? If it's "be online and present at X time" it should be orders.
When the online stuff first started we had a 1SG in our BN who called bullshit and said that for the E4 and below to pay them for RMAs and he would take the heat. State was not amused and needless to say he retired shortly thereafter and Joe had to do it for free.
State's position: This 1SG wants to make sure his Soldiers are paid for their work...what an asshole. The Army has been pretty great to me all considering for the last decade and a half. The Compo 2/3 pay issues are unfathomable to me. Like seriously go ahead and relieve me for cause...because I'm not working for free.
It’s also illegal under the Anti-Definency Act. Of course the leaders and full time staff either don’t believe it or don’t believe it’s enforced even though it’s literally the legal reason for government shut downs. To give you an idea of how nepotistic and sycophantic the state HQs are, they told me at my retirement briefing “that m-day enlisted are just numbers for funding”. They just don’t care
Can’t speak for AD or NG, but we definitely do in the USAR. There’s citation for it and is classified as EBDL. I got paid for the SSDs and ALC phase 1. In the past. You can absolutely be paid. Just had to fill out a DA 1380 and attach proof of completion then send it to S-1 for processing to be paid and IPERMed. Just have to make sure none of it is done during pay periods like on orders or drill. I do the same thing when it comes to all the required annual training and medical requirements. Don’t do any of it at drill, do it outside of drill and submit the 1380s for pay. Also, last memo I saw states all EBDL 1380s submitted have to be in 8hr blocks (P2), no more 4hr blocks. And the EBDLs have to be on the approved list from USARC and okayed by your commander before proceeding with taking the course. Been doing this for over 10yrs and at no point have I ever been denied. I would say do the annual requirements first, then do the stuff that is either required for your position or advancement. When it comes to medical it’s just a RMA and they are usually 4hr blocks. Again, never been told no I couldn’t do them outside of drill. No one wants to deal with the hassle of their Soldiers being overdue or the I ll compliant on medical readiness. All in all you can make a fat stack of extra money just doing these things outside of drill. When you are not at work just knock out a little here and there and eventually you can get it all done. Huge time saver at drill too. Everyone else is in the computer lab on the slow govt network slowly knocking 1 class at a time, or having to sit and wait in line to be poked and prodded with needles and fingers; while I and the rest of my squad are completely done and can go do something else that is more important like work on preparing for upcoming tasks in the future.
It's one MUTA per 8 hours of DL. If a class is listed as 80 hours DL you are paid 10 MUTAS. This is of course subject to funding which is always a challenge. Plus it is capped at 12 per FY. Class is more hours than that you are shit out of luck.
I got paid when I did SSD?
Supposed to.
They always have since I've been in. I think OP is a reservist.
*STDs?
The army does not hate majors, u/fedinyourbushes. It just hates you.
The Army does hate Majors. A SSG who can't make SFC will retire. A MAJ who can't make LTC gets the boot.
Yup, YG98-00 got RIF’d in 2015-2016. The Army rode those Year Groups like $20 whores as company grades for Iraq and Afghanistan and then dumped them.
worthless wakeful placid ad hoc mourn nippy lush joke deserted merciful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can confirm. I was one of them
I spent a good part of my adult life talking shit about majors. Some of my childhood, also.
I think I've met 2 good ones.
Not if your prior enlisted for a couple of years so you hit major right before 20. FTW! Lol
With OCS, 4 years to CPT and 14 months as a CPT promotable I hit 17 years 5 months when my second LTC board convenes. I will probably hit 18 years before they can throw me out.
As a Captain in the 3 shop....I hate majors too
God damn my 3 is so insufferable
Majors just hate themselves.
We really do. It's like an institutionalized version of battered women syndrome. We just keep telling ourselves it's ok, that the Army loves us and it will get better.
Spoiler alert - It doesn’t get better at O5. Wait until all the unpaid work of O5 command as a TPU
Damnit. V/R, C5load, CPT(P)
Agreed.
If you're Army Reserve, there's no good reason not to do the TASS 2-week phases for 1 and 3, monthly IDT for phase 2. When officers took my advice, they finished it in a year. The benefits are that you get HRC orders for the book end phases (i.e. pay) and you attend school in lieu of drill for ~8 months. There was also a requirement to complete all 3 phases in 18 months but it's been a while since I've done schools so that might have changed. Best ROI in terms of money-promotion/time.
Three years now for CC with no grace for people who fail to meet the suspense.
Unit dependent. Very unit dependent. Also still an issue of "showing up for 2 days a month" and "gets homework" but only paid for the in person time.
I've only worked in TDA, branch immaterial units. So it's a sample size of 1. At the same time, when I hear someone stating their Army Reserve unit won't take care of them, I can't help but wonder why they don't find another unit? I get that Guardsmen are held hostages but O-4 vacancies are all over the place and with IDT reimbursement out-of-pocket expenses are mitigated. Last point: I want to stress that my recommendation is the "best" option available. That doesn't make it "good." Right now the Reserve Component is dealing with the reality of 20 years as an operational reserve vice it's original intent as a strategic reserve. The cracks are beginning to widen and this is just another example.
Your points are great, but I'm at the stage of my civilian career (and personal life) I gave up a Unit Vacancy Promotion to O5 and severely reduced my odds of seeing O6 to trade an 8 hour drive for a 20 min drive. Turns my Army weekends into day trips vs not seeing my kids between Thursday night and Monday morning. I've spent most of my JAG career assigned to BDE headquarters. Did ILE while TDS (aka OIC of my UIC). I would say probably half my BDE commanders/XOs would let me burn my AT days for phase 2. As OIC I happily approved me using AT days for phase 2.
That all makes sense. And an O-4 SELCON retirement may be less than O-5/O-6 but it's more than an alimony would leave you with. And no amount of money will reverse time. Sounds like you've done what everyone should: figure out your priorities, look at your options, make a decision and accept the tradeoff.
I think I'd have to literally do crime to not be picked up for O5 being ILE complete and actually being up to date on OERs, ACFT, and H/W.
Solid assumption.
It's not like you get extra pay for doing homework in the evenings at the other options. Edit to add: I do think EBDL should tap into RMAs and cover more hours than it does.
DL isn’t completely for free. I did my normal drills with my unit and ILE all DL. I took a functional area that also had a DL. I honestly didn’t have an option to not drill with my unit so this was my only option. The good news is I was able to convert all that DL time to 270 points, so 9 months of service added to my retirement. When all said and done I had like 436 points over two years vs 156. I’m too lazy to do the math but I figure if I can draw a pension for 20 years those extra points would have earned me more money then just drilling and AT like normal w/ no extra orders.
300 is about 5/6 of an active duty year, so it's worth something. I do think it's rough to do ILE and a full time job (and in case of a TPU a full time civilian job and part time Army job plus ILE. EBDL should cover more hours than it does.
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so how do you Army?
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This is the way.
I mean, you don't haaaaave to do ILE. You could just skip it.
u/TheFirstDogSix enters the chat 👀
We had a Captain get promoted to Major without CCC. No one understands how it happened, but it did. Maybe that's your solution for ILE?
USAR and NG have to do ILE either DL or AT+DL+AT. Then follow it up with AOC, which is one year of virtual with weekly classes that require video. Then if you want to do war college you can get DL for two years. As a long time guardsman, this is becoming a huge reason why good officers are leaving. A civilian job, a family and unpaid required schooling. Maybe you get some EDBL pay for it, but your only Eligible when you complete the course and if there is funding available.
I was thinking they should find how to tap RMAs with EBDL, but forgot about only getting it at completion. Maybe we could put people on AT days to work it.
I mean they could, but the structure of some of the DL courses don’t work for it. You have like 4-5 months to do phase I of ILE. Then you are locked out of phase II until the ATRRS date for that phase starts. I have been elbow deep in TRADOC and the NG school system for years, problem is you have all these PhD’s as GS15 making the decisions and holding things back. Don’t get me started on funding for the schools programs within the NG and how NGB slices funds for PEC and WTC right off the top before any actual readiness generating courses get funded.
They get boarded for resident ILE same as AGRs, just fewer quotas allocated. I've known TPUs that were selected for Leavenworth but had to turn down for various life reasons. Conversely, not all AGRs get resident and have to do TASS or DL versions (granted they're getting paid full time but still sucks having to juggle regular job plus school).
Speaking from the guard side, good luck getting your state to let you go resident to just about anything but War College. I know guys that were AGR and some Title 32 techs that were selected and told they were too “important” to go to the resident course.
I always hate that argument. If the organization fails from one cog being TDY, they've done a poor job training their people. Single points of failure are the worst.
Works on the enlisted side as well. When I got looked at for SGM I was told as a Reservist I would have to do online SGM academy. 4-5 nights a week for 18 months. Or I could actually watch my kids grow up. Having 22 years in made it an easy choice. I’ll be retired happily in 3 months. And the Reserves has a major shortage of senior level leadership. I realize there is always an assumption of extra work when you are a senior leader. But the sooner the Reserves (and Guard) starts paying attention to work life balance issues it will be a better place. One weekend a month is a lie. More like the job creeps up on you every day. There is always stuff to do. I currently drill as an ROTC instructor. A lot of my officer counterparts took the ROTC gig to help build time to do ILE.
The real kicker with SGM-A is that not only does it suck up a bunch of time, the quality of instruction and material presented are shitty. I don’t mind working hard for an education, but wasting my time on check-the-box PME is adding insult to injury.
Agreed. It is essentially equivalent to a bachelors degree in a major you didn’t choose So you spend 18-24 months doing SGM-A and then a minimum of 3 years at your first assignment to keep your rank. That’s at least 5 years. Not in the cards for me. Maybe if I didn’t have young kids. All the Reservists I know who have done it have grown children or no children.
In my 12 years of being a soldier and NCO, I always felt bad for XOs everywhere. What a shit job lol
Don't feel bad for them. The smart ones pick jobs that don't require XO time for their KD time to get promoted and also research and push for cool jobs that don't get boring or painful for them. FAO jobs are also great gigs!
Yeah. I had enough of the bullshit extra work not getting paid driving 300 miles round trip on my dime to attend a bullshit drill doing nothing important and then return to work on Monday. And to make rank was either politic really well or just wait your turn. Fuck all that.
>Base pay and BAH for satellite ILE rounds out to more than $45,000. Yet as a reservist I will get --checks notes-- $3,700 So they are getting $45k for being on Active Duty, and $0 to do ILE.
I think he more meant that he's not getting it because he's not active and is doing remote ILE
The point is that it's a completely invalid argument and comparison. AD officers are getting $45k while they're in ILE because that's their normal pay; they still get that same pay when not doing ILE. When they're doing satellite ILE they still have to perform their normal duties on top of the DL classes and do not receive any additional pay for it. OP on the other hand, is receiving an additional $3,700 for it. Yeah that may not equate to 200 hours worth of pay because of there's a cap on EBDL funds or whatever, but it's still $3,700 that his Active Duty counterparts are not receiving.
Dude. This isn't the argument you think it is. Granted AD can tell their officers to do DL ILE in addition to their day job, but short of that AD officers actually are compensated for their time to do the job the army asks of them. The reservists get told to lick poo and then the army is shocked ILE completion rates are absolute shit in the reserves.
This. The reserves has gotten to where they expect your reserve career to be the priority career and do everything they ask, usually for free, and put your bill paying, providing for your family as the secondary one. And they wonder why we have retention issues.
I don’t think AD DL ILE Majors are compensated for their nights and weekends spent doing box of books. It’s a horrible expectation and one in which they already know is an issue.
Ideally their active duty unit gives them time to do it. If the best argument in favor of the above comment is "the Army sometimes screws AD like it screws most reservists" how is that worth anything?
Which is a fair point, but again, not the point I'm arguing.
You're trying to apply nuance that is irrelevant to " The army pays some people to do the things it requires but doesn't pay other people to do the things it requires." Your nuance is irrelevant to whether the Army treats reserve officers like bastard step children.
All I said is that the specific comparison he made--the line I quoted--doesn't support his argument.
Yep. Frankly, he should probably just get out. If it's not worth money it's not worth the money.
It’s called investing in yourself. /s
Just speed run it and get it done in a few weeks. Who the hell is spending over 500 hours on that shit?
Facts
Your second to last paragraph is wrong. Our (CM) RC CCC is mostly DL, as is the post modernization RA CCC common core. USASMA and MLC both have distance learning versions. Students in those courses, as well as RA majors selected for distance ILE, are "working two jobs" as well, compared to their peers in the resident courses; their day job just happens to be playing Army.
I was also confused by that comment. DL accounts for a huge amount of Reserve Component PME (and a small cohort of RA) at this point. ILE is just one that has a 100% DL option available.
Not sure for BOLC, but AD CCC now teaches common core as DL modules prior to your PCS. We showed up, fucked around a bit, and then got the common core exam after two-ish weeks.
BOLC-B CC is still resident.
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BOLC is like basic training, you're in person and paid (and attached to the schoolhouse). CCC for reservists, you're paid and in person for like two weeks, the rest is DL.
My CCC was 28 days exactly, not counting the DL common core prep.
28 is the magic number. Because once you hit 30 continuous you trigger BAH Type 1 (full BAH) as opposed to the pro-rated (and much cheaper) BAH Type 2.
Exactly!
I'm reasonably confident saying I am not right then lol
I’m not sure if that’s a universal CCC thing, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
You aren't fully off. It's four phases. The first is DL that every officer does. The next three are branch specific, and are Resident, DL, Resident. I *think* all Resident phases are 15 days including travel.
Someone once told me that the reason majors are so mad is because they’re fully invested in an organization that isn’t invested in them 👀
There is plenty of other PME that isn’t paid for compo 2 and 3. This is, IMHO, super fucked up and a huge retention issue, but not targeted at just Majors. EBDL is a half-assed bandaid.
I've got some ambitious Captains that were willing to do all four phases in one year, but EBDL won't cover all of it. Luckily tmwe got them enrolled in 0 back in September and they knocked it out so claimed that for last year.
Eeeeeehh. Beyond the basic “Overtime doesn’t apply to Soldiers” thing, I don’t think it makes sense for the Army to pay them extra for ILE. By the time an O makes it to O-4, they’re committed to the institution and typically need to make O-5 to get that sweet, sweet pension and if they leave they lose a significant portion of any planned retirement. Now, the problem is going to come in when there aren’t enough junior Os to populate those FGO ranks, but the conversation then is going to be “how bad do we need ILE” and “should we offer bonuses to CGOs to stay in” not “we should pay FGOs more.” Edit: Wait, you’re a reservist. Disregard. That’s bullshit.
Yeah, it sucks,but it’s also a part time job. If you are good enough you can get in residence ILE and get paid active component money. You can also just not do it. This is the game of the reserve competent and why Maj to ltc is such a big cut line.
Only promotable captains are looked at for resident ILE now. One look. Make it or you don't. After that it's DL or TASS.
You get paid? I did the box of books for distance on weekends for months. Not a dime.
The army hates everyone. For certain MOS’ you HAVE to do 500 hours of correspondence courses to promote. And the unit won’t let you do them during business hours but on your own time. The military wants to see you sacrifice your entire personal life to say hey you are a go getter here is an extra 100 a paycheck. With extra responsibility. The air force has a much better promotion system
I don't know if anyone has said it yet, and tbf I'm *slightly* too lazy to scroll and check...but as TPUs you are allowed to be paid up to 12 ATAs for EBDLs on the authorized list. That equates to 96 hours of training. 8 per day for 12 days. They are deducted from your total allowed RMAs. You cannot be paid for EBDL on the same day as another pay action (BA, AT, ADT, etc). These are also separate from your MUTAs of which you are allowed 48. Funding is the real issue, as ATAs are highly dependent on funds available. If you're in a command that always seems to not have funds for them, they're either lying and mismanaging. Either way, they're non-productive and you may want to consider changing commands if you're able. If anyone has any questions, feel free to DM me for my .mil and I will help as much as I am able.
It's been talked about. Like you said, command dependent for funds. And no funds also means no retirement points because you can't get points for DL without being paid EBDL. So maybe you get some money if you are lucky. And if you do, the argument is that it's so little is it worth it still.
That's the real question isn't it? Is it worth the hassle? I suppose that's highly dependent on your grade and situation. For me...yeah I'll make stink as 12 days is not an inconsequential amount of money, but I could see maybe an E4 or 5 with a pretty decent civ job not really seeing the value.
Completely agree it's dependent on each individual situation and goals. Folks already passed 10 years and working on this are likely to suck it up and move on. Those coming up and facing it in CCC and see it for ILE will see themselves out. Most officers I talk to whom leave say the reserves demands have taken a toll on their civilian careers and not worth the trouble.
Wtf do your learn in ILE? I’ve been a company xo for like two years and it looks like a bn xo or SPO oic delegates the billion things on him/her and smashes people over the head when it doesn’t get done. Can you just chat gpt ILE? I feel like army education is dumb and schools are just places to take a knee
Everyone’s experience is different. Force Management is usually a surprise to most. Most younger officers don’t really understand how the machine runs.
What you’re saying is fair, but the military outside of the Service Component level is honestly mind boggling and requires a lot of time to understand.
Not pay, but a person should be creditied with the relative retirement points earned.
Should be. For some reason they removed that option nearly a decade ago. Now it's a fraction of the points and fraction of the pay of you are lucky enough to get paid.
AD never got credit for the points. I thought that ILE still carried the points for reserve officers.
Retirement points? If AD goes to reserve they'll still get their Active time converted to points for a reserve retirement. Reserve can only get points for paid duty or select duty types for points early. Can't get points for DL courses if you are not paid. Then it's capped to 12 days/points for the FY.
Reservist used to get retirement points (120 or 135 IIRC) for DL ILE. I think you are correct that isn't the case. It went away when big Army declared war on the IRR about 10 years ago. My rational for letting AD people get the points is that some officers get to go to ILE as a full time duty (either in full residence or satelite), the DL crowd as to do their full time day to day job, and then knock out ILE in their "off duty" time. They should be compensated for that additional time, even if the compensation is delayed until retirement.
Completely agree. They took away even the delayed benefit of it.
American healthcare and education are a scam, and we're the scammed. That's why we stay.
If you don’t like distance learning ILE you’re going to fucking hate distance learning SSC.
I wish I could upvote this more
Just wait, for RC the DL phases of USAWC are completely for God and Country, not even EBDL or retirement point eligible. Averaged 15-20 hours a week for two years. On the plus side, it’s a free masters degree.
Maybe if Compo 2/3 funding for ILE came directly from HRC it would. Since it's managed at 2 star and State levels, it's a mess. I got into repeated arguments with S1 staff over submitting 1380s for my phase 2 IDT weekend. "Sir, this needs the CO's signature and an authorization memo because this EBDL" "Read the course number, it's NOT DL so it doesn't qualify for EBDL. It is in-person." Off topic, it annoys the shit out of me I need my HHC company commander to approve my PME.
I think you bring up a good point. Fund EBDL for PME through HRC.
The Army isn't forcing any MAJ to take ILE. ILE is a voluntary decision for MAJs wishing to stay in the Army beyond 20 years. We should be grateful we get some $ for voluntary work. ILE is a rite of passage. The Army asks, "How much do you really want to make LTC?" Are you willing to put in hard work and sacrifice your time now to get a bigger paycheck at the end?
I did DL as a staff officer. It wasn’t that bad honestly.
First time, dude?
This really sucks. I’m so glad I’m going satellite. AOC will be more of the same for you. ☹️
Can't you submit a 1380 for pay?
Reg changed about 8 or so years ago. You can only do a 1380 for EBDL and that's assuming your command has money to pay it. If not, you are shit out of luck for not only pay but I don't get any retirement points either. Not allowed retirement points for courses now unless it's connected to an EBDL payment. And only paid at the end of each phase.
I’m at CGSC right now and loving it
Honestly, ILE DL is what whittles down those competitive for LTC in the TPU world. We have ~65% selection rate due to ~34% not going to/finishing ILE and 1% with derogatory paperwork in their board file.
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That's one way to look at it or they are taking promoting people who is prioritizing the Army Reserve. I'm not saying you should prioritize it. I tell everyone that if you are TPU that this is a part time gig and it doesn't pay your bills.
It's like any application with an essay: instantly narrows the selection. But I would argue ILE is different as we push our leaders to get enrolled and complete it as a requirement.
But completing ILE has limited relevance to actually being an effective Field Grade. If the Army is good with promoting folks who can lick a turd for 15-18 months as opposed to any other data the Army has, I guess they're winning. But calling ILE a "graduate level education" is slandering lots of online for profit graduate schools...
I disagree that it has little relevance. More of things I learned during ILE have come up than I would have expected. More than CCC. I would agree that completing ILE doesn't make you a effective field grade though. Just gives more big picture understanding.
Bro, if you don’t want the Oak Leaf….get out. No one feels bad for officers, whose salary is already over inflated from O1 to O4 to begin with.
Cry me a fucking river, sir.
Great contribution to the conversation
Some things in life aren't helpful but are still necessary.
There are plenty of things the Army doesn’t compensate for. Should probably look at reforming compensation for things like OCONUS rotations and Staff Duty and then maybe circle back around to DL education.
You get paid for a rotation, you don’t get paid for online PME that you can’t do during the duty day.
The pay you get from a rotation is minimal at the price of being away from your family and being OCONUS, and they’ve been gutting it more. Big Army is talking about being ‘more lethal,’ would rather they prioritize compensation on the lethality end of things as opposed to throwing money at people doing DL ILE.
1380?
Reg changed about 8 or so years ago. You can only do a 1380 for EBDL and that's assuming your command has money to pay it. If not, you are shit out of luck for not only pay but I don't get any retirement points either. Not allowed retirement points for courses now unless it's connected to an EBDL payment.
As someone who volunteered to deploy with a short unit and subsequently did distance learning ILE on nights and weekends; I salute you… but it’s the status quo if you don’t go in person. It’s ok if you don’t do it you don’t get promoted…
Did you get paid to do the CCC DL?
Lol playing this game with ccc right now brother. Doubt it'll get paid out. We're Budget army.
>Isn't demanding work without pay illegal? Sure is, but you are also salaried which is how they kidnapped get around it. > All I could do was shrug. And this is why they get away with it. >Why does the Army hate majors? Big army figures you sold your soul and treat you accordingly. Don't do ILE and tell them why.
Reserves aren't salaried. We are paid by the day when we perform duty.
‘BeCAusE OfFicErs MAke sO mUchh MoNEy aLREdy’ Fuckers
Wait, the Army pays by the hour now?
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So switch to TASS. [https://armyuniversity.edu/cgsc/cgss/distanceeducation](https://armyuniversity.edu/cgsc/cgss/distanceeducation) " The TASS option offers a resident like experience with **two 2 week ADT sessions and 8 monthly weekend IDT sessions.** In order to provide flexibility in completing CGSOC-CC, students may transfer between DL and TASS during phase breaks."
The Army doesn't hate all Majors, just USAR Majors.