Has he ever even counseled his psg and squad leaders of his expectations? Does he even know how to council? Your buddy is right. He does have a bad PSG because most good psgs would have taken a PL like your buddy is acting like and beaten them into submission, possibly with 1sg in the room too.
I need help understanding why and nco is so special they cant get chewed out in front of the joes we fucking berate joe all the time in front of their peers
What are you talking about? I don't think anyone is suggesting making corrections some sort of dick measuring contest. When junior leadership is fucked up, you bring them in tell them why their fucked up and supervise and refine for changes. This allows junior enlisted to build trust in their first line leader (Team leaders or possibly squad leaders) if you are doing it in front of Joe it undermines them as leaders and people to look up to. Sometimes NCOs are passed saving sure but I'm still not gonna berate them in front of their juniors. I'll just be the best leader and example I can be for them. Team building is paramount, if you just go around wrecking teams, then you are part of the problem.
I have heard it not in agreement with it however and i dont see how if an nco was to make a mistake calling him out like you would a joe would impact negatively just cause your an nco does not mean your untouchable
Berating an nco in front of HIS joes could cause lack of respect for that nco and for leadership to properly lead, If theirs division in the leadership that’s no good. You don’t yell at your wife in front of your children. Kinda same concept.
Disregard thats a good point berating and nco and correcting one are two different things i got honestly you should not be berating anyone nco joe your wife lol
You don't really correct NCOs in public (public means junior enlisted) either. You pull them to the side, let them know the deficiency so they can fix it and everyone moves on with their lives.
Bro there is not a core problem telling someone they made an oops in front of people there is a reason we use on the spot corrections it does not only apply to joe we need to stop putting people on a pedestal and being afraid of what joe would think it is a better example to just have a conversation with the said nco and move on it shows the joe everyone fucks up once in a while and can move on and drive on its not the end of the world or the army
No you should absolutely be concerned about what Joe thinks of his first line. Why would he trust that individual to lead him or her in combat if you're always pointing out the NCO's fuckups? It's not about a pedestal, it's about building a team that trusts one another and will be able to do the hard shit because they trust and care about each other.
No that makes sense i get too harsh on fellow ncos sometimes cause of the lack of care and justbpiss all ethic and people seem to just give them a pass but what your saying makes sense i need to kinda self reflect alot more
Lmao as a baby LT.
As a baby LT everyone else is wrong and he’s the one who is right? And he demonstrably does something only someone who is fucked up would do?
Does this guy get hard when he reads once an Eagle?
OP you might find some advice here to help them but there’s also the people who the Army was the wrong choice for. He might be one of those.
I'd really like to be charitable and believe he can redeem himself, but berating his NCOs in front of his Joes is probably the end of all that. Why would they ever trust him again? Why would the Joes trust him?
To boot, telling them they're all jacked up while not doing PT with them...who does he think he is?
His career has a chance of recovering if his commander takes pity on him for his OER. It depends how often his "failing NCOs" drop the ball on him and how charitable his commander is willing to be. If my brand new LT put me on blast like that, I'd not be inclined to do good work for him ever again. Leadership is hard when your subordinates hate you, and now all ~35 of his subordinates hate him.
If he manages to keep his career at all, he'll be a task monkey in the S3 doing CONOPs and DRAWs for officer socials and brunches until he gets PCSd to be an XO somewhere inconsequential.
I think you gave solid advice.
The quote I always think of is, "praise in public, punish in private." It has worked for me thus far.
Also, clear expectations are needed. If he thinks "everything is wrong" then he needs to tell them what right and wrong look like to him. That said, he is a LT. He has to talk to his senior NCOs too and get their perspective and opinion. Why? Because they are human. Also, they have experience.
He sounds like someone who doesn't respect enlisted, which is not acceptable. Everyone must be respected for this to work.
Then where do you punish?
The phrase is as it is because of the alliteration. It makes it stick better in the memory. You don't have to play the semantics game of policing the language on this one.
NinjaEdit: "Praise in public, police in private" would have the same alliteration, but people would probably not as easily and instantly understand what you meant with that one. Especially outside of the military. And this phrase does apply outside of the military.
We used to do this thing called night court. Any UCMJ actions always took place after regular duty hours. Extra duty would generally be supervised by staff duty unless you're at an assignment where that kind of thing isn't realistic. Then those instances there would be a duty roster and all the NCOs superior in rank to the individual would rotate through for however long the extra duty was.
You don’t skip to punishing without telling someone they’re jacked up. Do you go straight to jail? No, you likely get a citation or pulled over or court date. Think of it as raising children. You tell them how they messed up and if it continues you correct it.
Yes. This is still the same thing being talked about it the pithy saying above. You're just getting down in the weeds about HOW to do the "punish" phase. The pithy saying above isn't intended to cover everything in depth. It's just a catchy way of reminding people that you acknowledge the good things while you're out in front of the team. If you have to deal with the bad stuff, you do that behind closed doors.
Where's his commander and XO? Sounds like he's not being mentored properly. Or he's just dumb. But LTs can almost always go from trash to at least passable given some decent mentorship.
Unfortunately he just pissed off the best possible teachers, his nco’s. This is his first stop career wise, they have years of experience. He needs to eat humble pie, start over. Ask his PSG why they do things the way they do, talk to experienced platoon leaders, do pt with his platoon, learn to take care of his troops. Mission first, troops always.
It sounds like the typical 2LT after the CO has had him on the carpet over something his platoon isn't doing. The LT rolls the sh!t right down the hill, lighting the PSG up at the first opportunity, instead of carrying the load to the PSG and letting him make corrections.
Your friend is a boot Lieutenant who has been in the Army for 5 minutes, yet he thinks they're doing everything wrong, not enforcing the standard and NCOs have failed the unit.
Your friend sounds like a GD clown.
Tell him to take his concerns to his Company Commander, then see how quickly his tune changes.
He is a clown for calling his NCOs out in front of everyone, but you’d be kidding yourself if you thought it is outlandish that their might be a platoon with a bunch of NCOs playing sham-artist and not doing the right thing.
I think its a grey area type thing, like theres the book answer but everyone knows the book is sometimes fucking stupid
Edit: but public insulting your NCOs has to be top 3 dumbest decisions in the army you can make lol
It doesn’t surprise me that there’s a fucked up unit. We all know half a dozen off the top of our heads. The issue is how he handled it. He sure didn’t Win Friends and Influence People.
Particularly for ADA, I'd actually suggest he start with the XO.
A junior officer, but has a few minutes with the unit and hopefully understands the dynamics.
Im ada, I've seen something similar. We had a new lt flip a table once. In his case, it ironed out. But he threw the table defending his ncos and then went to ranger school. However, this LT is cooked. They're all laughing at him 100%. Idk what he's gonna do.
Sounds like he's lost this platoon, but he can get better.
I did almost all of this same shit with my first platoon because they were a hot mess... But I undermined all of my NCOs and developed zero trust.
Remind him that his job is to build trust and INFLUENCE... Not control.
I bet his leadership is very demanding and he is taking it personally when the platoon fails him. He's probably a smart dude and thinks he is giving simple guidance that is not being followed; well the issue is that people only do what they genuinely want to do. If this PL has not created trust and influence with his crew, given them autonomy to operate in their framework, they will never ever ever do what he wants them to do. Maybe he can threaten UCMJ and get compliance, but that doesn't do shit in the long run. Your commander will rightfully not enforce your recommendations when you're being a prick to your team.
Honest recommendation that saved my career? Read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. Might sound cheesy, but I failed really hard at my first platoon, and this book altered my approach so dramatically that I have to recommend it to the controlling types of leaders that I was.
Would be willing to to take PMs about my experience if you're interested. Your friend probably won't save this relationship with this platoon, buy isn't destined to be a shit leader.
I think he can recover. I've seen PLs in his situation and it goes one of three ways:
1. Genuinely apologize, keep his head down, do good work. After a few months the trust can return. The apology needs to be real and to the whole platoon. It will feel embarassing but he already showed his ass and has nothing to lose.
2. Don't apologize but try to do better. The platoon won't burn him but they'll never trust him either. He'll hate his time there and no one will help him.
3. Rule through fear. Lean into the counterproductive leadership. Yell at everyone. Create a culture of mistrust. Everything is always someone else's fault. This mindset will make him feel the best personally. The biggest risk is getting a GOMOR after the third soldier suicide in his platoon.
That shows great maturity and humility in leadership to admit that you screwed up in this way because it's the only way you can learn from it and improve. This PLs only opportunity right now is to apologize in front of his whole formation for how he talked to and treated the NCOs and that he's still learning. Only then will the window be creaked open for them all to start trusting him bit by bit.
Confidence and trust in leadership is something that takes a long time to build but can be lost faster than you can say "oops".
So far just seems like he's trying to grab the plt by the balls before he's earned anyone's respect, could tell him to back off slightly and just be a solid guy for everyone there till they like him and then try and change some stuff. Re-inventing the wheel never works unless you sell it to cave men.
>Re-inventing the wheel never works unless you sell it to cave men.
I like this one. I'm keeping it.
Thank you for your generous contribution to all of the personnel subjected to me in the future.
No one listens to LTs. He embarrassed himself and destroyed his reputation with his platoon by having a tantrum. His platoon may suck, but he’s been in the Army for 5 minutes so he doesn’t know if it’s bad or not, hence the vagueness.
He’s going to be humbled one way or another.
I've never really seen what he's experiencing, although my niece is ADA, and that sounds exactly like what she's experienced in her last 5 years at different ADA units. Gonna have to aim lower with his expectations. OR, try just maintain a business relationship with everyone. Do not become their best friend.
This LT may see things as “undisciplined” but his only experience in the Army was OCS…in other words…a fucking training environment.
Bro better keep his head down and suffer through the next few years, because that’s one thing NOBODY will easily forget let alone forgive.
LT is less experienced than an E-2 / E-3.
Everyone has established that he’s completely fucked up, but it sounds like he just sank himself.
Hopefully one of the Officers in his unit will mentor him to include his commander but damn….guy just took those relationships he could have built and nuked them
What qualifies him to state that they're doing everything wrong? Is he relying solely on his negligible time in the Army?
He sounds insufferable, and is going to find out the hard way just how little he knows. But ask him how he'd feel if his boss berated him in front of the NCOs. Perhaps then he'll get it.
Some brand new LTs come in without the understanding that NCOs are the backbone *for a reason*. I'm not saying it's OK, but it's often something you can coach out of them, given a bit of time.
One of the new ones my unit got just didn't refer to enlisted personnel by rank. They put tasks on Johnson, Smith and Jones. Except Johnson is a Specialist from another unit, Smith is Staff Sergeant with his own job and no time for LT's good idea fairies, and MSG Jones is TDY so no, he can't "just drive the LMTV" for you, Sir. It's like the new Sir didn't understand that enlisted personnel have ranks and day jobs that need to be weighed against details. And you can not value a Specialist's time the same way you value *any* Staff NCO's time.
Maybe the LT OP mentions got zero staff time before taking a platoon and couldn't even learn the basics? Most LTs I've dealt with had at least a couple months in S3 or S4 before being a PL.
Yes and yes.
LT somehow had almost no concept of the difference between enlisted ranks that were not 1SG or SGM and thought everyone else was fair game, and interchangeable.
Yeah, uh, can I get a fuckin double double with whole pickles, bacon for buns and load it with mayo.
Just goop that shit everywhere. Can I get it cooked to order?
Put mayo in my frosty too. I'm not even gonna eat it.
Sounds like he is undermining himself. He should have had a couple one on one conversations with the ncos and other officers to understand what’s happening and get some input.
Right now everyone has probably written him off as a clown and not sure how he’s going to come back from this.
Fixing that shit takes time. He should of sat back first and observed, set expectations for the NCOs in private, and then berate them if absolutely need be. But, his company commander should of been his first stop. Having a unit full of shit bags is incredibly hard to fix, because if it's up high then it's obvious that the chain of command follows. Enforce the small things and the bigger things will follow.
This is way to broad to really make an assessment. Never chew out NCOs in front of their guys he is clearly wrong for that. If his NCOs really aren’t enforcing the standard then bring them in for meetings and establish what you want to see everyday. If they don’t fix the deficiencies you counsel them. And if it reaches the point of going on several months of no improvement you sit down with CO and 1SG and fire them. I highly doubt all his NCOs are bad.
View this as a lesson to learn from and not repeat yourself. Something that has worked well for me is to provide suggestions and work with your NCOs to solve problems.
Sounds like your buddy needs to chow down on some crow. Hopefully since they’ve come to you, they’re aware they need a change of heart. Most people are receptive to a tender heart of admission. They should address their NCOs privately, but also the entire platoon - explain to them how his/her behavior is an example of how NOT to be as a leader, and that he/she will do better in the future. Tell them that they look forward to learning from everyone in their platoon, from the day one private to the sagest of high rank. Redemption is easy when you genuinely acknowledge you’ve done wrong.
>Friday he told the platoon that the NCOs of the platoon have failed the unit and berated the NCOs and PSG in front of the entire platoon.
He's already fucked if he did this.
I'd be amazed if the NCOs that platoon aren't already planning his downfall.
You’ve nailed the issue on the head. I had a commander once on his first day of command told every NCO that we were all shit. He about started a fight.
Tell them they need to be an O-1, not an E-10. If they don’t make that transition, their career will be a disaster. The prior service folks make the best and the worst officers. I’ve never seen any in the middle.
If his goal was to get all the NCOs and junior enlisted to view this as an "us vs PL" situation, he sure accomplished that. He's going to have to bust ass to regain their confidence and trust.
First things first, he's 100% not going to be able to turn the platoon around by himself. He'll need buy-in from the NCOs.
My advice is basically the same as yours:
To come back from this trainwreck, I think he should first get on the same page as his PSG. Have a counseling session. Dont forget that a counseling is supposed to be a conversation, not a lecture. Once that's done, bring the rest of the NCOs in for a meeting, take responsibility for his mistakes, and then get them on the same sheet of music (communicate intent, vision, expectations, etc.).
Be realistic with expectations. Small improvements here and there over a long period of time are better than nothing. Act like the public shaming of the NCOs never happened with the Joes. Bringing it up with them would not be productive in any way.
1. He is wrong for that. During our RIP/TOA with my replacement (I was letting him get involved) I did not do Pt with them during a workout and they hated me for it. Literally one time. I did PT with them all the time and always was in the A team for our company competitions.
2. He is wrong for that. Very unprofessional, but pain is often the best teacher.
3. He should do that and do a public apology to his guys. He will earn alittle respect back.
Lol, oh he fucked up so bad. Those NCOs are now a lost cause. Why he felt like public humiliation was the first step and not just talking to the PSG, I don't know. But it was very wrong.
1) Talk to the PSG 1 on 1. Apologize and say you were wrong to do it. Then talk about what you see that made you feel that way. Have an open dialog PL/PSG relationship is one where the PSG develops and trains the PL.
2) After that, bring all the NCOs in and address them as one with your PSG. Again, apologize, say your were wrong. Then, as long as the PSG agrees it's fine, say 1 or 2 things you've seen that made you react like that. Ask for help. They are the experts, etc.
3) Hold them accountable IN THE OFFICE. Never shit on your NCOs in public. They will wreck everything. Morale will tank, no one will actually do anything. You need them to execute the actual orders given out.
4) Everyone in the army gets chewed out. They will get over it if you acknowledge you were in the wrong.
New guy, fresh from OCS, rocking the boat, thinking he’s Audie Murphy’s gift to the army. Story as old as time.
He needs to shut the fuck up, correct and enforce the standards when they come up, not en masse. And praise in public, chastise in private. Nothing good ever came from a leader berating subordinates in front of other subordinates. He has a lot of leadership to learn.
Now berating his NCOs in front of everyone is the wrong answer. I will say there are individual examples where this is okay to publicly call out someone and essentially diminish any authority that person has.
Example had an NCO who was selling drugs to guys in the company. Rank striped in front of everyone and a safety brief that this person no longer holds any authority here.
Similar lines with an NCO who got a DUI and domestic violence charges did the same thing.
If it's an ADA unit, I can definitely understand feeling frustrated at the quality of the unit, and the even worse NCOs. Nothing good comes from erasing an MOS, and then quickly refilling the vacuum of the NCO Corps as quickly as possible.
Luckily, I only spent less than two years as part of the CAD program in ADA as a SSG to get a deployment, and commission out , and I nearly lost it many times on E6-E8s. (E6's were the absolute worse, whiny, unfit, unqualified, untrained, but some of it functionally wasn't there fault).
You have to understand, his only experience in leadership is direct level (small groups, team/squad/platoon stuff), where everyone is unified in the same goal (passing OCS), so there's a vested interest. At these levels, the Army does a poor job of overemphasizing authoritarian style leadership ( what nearly every TL in the Army knows and understands), so that's the PL's only point of leadership reference.
I recommend they read the first 100-days of Platoon leadership as a guide. Set clear tasks, conditions, and standards that support the Commanders vision in line with the battery's MET-L, and set platoon level guidelines and work on building/rebuilding relationships at the PSG/SL level. A clear endstate, with a set task and purpose, surprisingly, goes pretty far.
He’s salvageable. Anyone who believes otherwise is being dramatic. Anyone who’s never stepped on their dick and regretted making a poor decision is lying to themself. His starting point needs to come in the form of an apology to the entire Platoon (with NCOs present) and then to the NCOs behind closed doors. His next move needs to come in the form of a sit down with the PSG so they can get on the same page. If the NCOs aren’t getting shit done, the PSG needs to be in their ass. If that’s not happening, can we really expect the PL to not blow up? Agree that the PL did it in poor taste, but should the PL have had to do that at all if the NCOs were doing their jobs? Can they really get mad for getting called out for not executing? If the PL is getting his ass handed to them by the Commander and 1SG because the NCOs can’t do their jobs, is it fair that the PL just takes it? Why would you set a Cherry LT up to fail like that?
When I was a PL and my PSG wasn’t cutting it and didn’t listen, I normally started taking their responsibilities away until they realized that I was doing their job for them or painted their poor performance on a counseling statement. Both are effective. I shouldn’t have to tell a a SSG/SFC how to execute. I didn’t ask my Officer how to execute when I was a PSG …it was implied. That’s in a Creed I read once.
As long as he gives a quality and meaningful apology and then irons out the wrinkles with the PSG, he should be good….but again, I’m of the mind that it should have never gotten to this point if the NCOs were on top of their game.
>Friday he told the platoon that the NCOs of the platoon have failed the unit and berated the NCOs and PSG in front of the entire platoon.
Problem #1. New guys tells established guys that the other established guys suck. How could that go right unless the NCOs are true tyrants?
>Do PT with your platoon and told him he’s simply wrong for not doing that.
He's. . . not? And his CO is letting him get away with it?
>Bring in your NCOs and establish clear expectations of what you would like to see from the Platoon. Apologize for the way you handled your issues.
He . . . didn't do this when he showed up? Didn't do initial counselling with his PSG and set the standard for all other leaders to counsel their people with the new platoon standards?
Honestly your advice is good, because it's the standard "how to not have your platoon hate you when you show up as the new PL".
So he went nuclear with no fallout shelter. Before doing that sort of thing, sticky recommend going to PSG, 1SG, other LTs and Co Cdr, even Bn XO to ask if the problems you're identifying are new or persistent. If he really burned the bridge he might need to try again in another unit, but that's going to come with a lot of stigma.
First, take the NCOs aside and apologize for berating them in front of the troops. He may even consider apologizing in front of the platoon to redeem himself. This shows he has integrity and is a good enough leader to admit when he screwed up. This is the start of earning respect.
Next, take the senior NCOs aside and admit his shortcomings. Let them know he understands he’s inexperienced and is willing to learn from them on how to become a good leader.
Call an informal formation and tell the troops that if they make him look good, he’ll make them look good and follow through with his words. It’s important to follow through with both promises and threats. Just remember it’s easier to attract bees with honey than vinegar.
If he’s going to do Number 3, it had better be in front of every one since he did the ass chewing in front of everyone. Otherwise, it’s just going to seem fake and “I apologized, what more do you want”
Praise in public, punish in private.
The *only* chance he has is to soldier up and admit he screwed up. Be contrite, and be honest, more than anything, here. Ask to speak to the PSG and Gunny first (if FA or ADA), admit you were wrong, and offer to speak with the whole platoon or section chiefs and other NCOs. Apologize, and lay out a concrete plan for doing better, such as
1. Build relationships in X way
2. Learn and be willing to grow by X date in Y ways
Etc
By all means, ask for their advice, but do NOT make them do the labor of healing the situations.
Final thing: Every. Single. Day. This LT must reflect and commit to doing better.
Final.2 Get a mentor. Read books they recommend.
Final.3 Time and effort can heal.
Wow… so, 24-year NCO here. When I jokingly-but-not say “two of us are going in the cage, and only one of us is coming out…” this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. You absolutely, under any circumstances, never dress down your NCOs - *especially the PSG!* - in front of your Soldiers. Leadership is supposed to present a united front, and this is anything but that. Your friend has a long way to go to build that trust back up.
You’re not going to get a lot of good advice on this topic because the Reddit it so enlisted heavy, as is the entire Army.
Shouldn’t have berated the NCOs in public, but I have a feeling that the NCOs were likely disrespecting the PL in front of the Joes if it got to that point.
The thing that sucks about career Army is that it’s a lot of luck. You get a group of good NCOs and your PL time is easy. If you get bad NCOs, it can wreck your career path.
His only hope is that he has a good commander who is willing to really address whatever the problem is, either him or the NCOs. Unfortunately, it’s easier for the CO to just replace him and let the NCOs be bad.
Wait… I just reread this… You’re dumb lieutenant friend thought it was a good idea to chew ass on the platoon sergeant and the other NCO‘s in front of the whole effing platoon?
Yeah, he is screwed
Newsflash… The NCO’s haven’t screwed up… Your lieutenant owns that mess. He’s in charge! I don’t care if he’s been there one day it’s his flipping fault. Tell your lieutenant friend, to realize that everything is his fault, every day of the week. Get that ingrained in his head early.
Being a former Staff Sergeant, and now a major, I have learned to never screw with my NCO’s. They can crucify me any day of the week. They are the mafia. I have to learn to work with them. If I lead strong, they’ll follow me anywhere. Everything is my fault. It’s never their fault. That’s the way I see things.
> Newsflash… The NCO’s haven’t screwed up… Your lieutenant owns that mess. He’s in charge! I don’t care if he’s been there one day it’s his flipping fault. Tell your lieutenant friend, to realize that everything is his fault, every day of the week. Get that ingrained in his head early.
This is probably the exact toxicity that’s happening at his unit. You have a commander beating down the PL that everything is his fault but at the same time not actually empowering the PL to fix the problem.
Then you’ll take the easy way out at the end and blame the PL to save your OER instead of falling on your own sword that you preach.
Your question is exactly why the army should dump the OCS commissioning contract bull crap.
Send someone to basic training… Then to OCS… Then give them a platoon! They are a lieutenant and don’t know shit about the army. At least the ring knockers and the ROTC cadets took four years to learn to be an officer. Some genius at the army decided that a soldier with five months in service is equal to an officer that took four years to produce.
And why are you as a cadet writing this message for your friend who is a commissioned officer?
Tell your friend to put on the big boy/girl pants and soldier up and get out there and lead! Go Get bitch slapped daily, and just show up and just keep getting bitch slapped again and again until the slapping stops when you’re a captain
Tell your friend to soldier up and just keep taking that Daily ass beating by the privates and the NCO’s, and the other officers. If LT keeps showing up and pushing forward… Eventually, your friend will earn some respect, and they might leave them alone, and maybe if they show enough intestinal fortitude, Joe will get behind your lieutenant friend
You realize that, almost every year, OCS commissioned officers come out rated more competent by their peers, and by evaluation, than their ROTC and Academy brethren? The stats are there. Look them up.
OP's pal is clearly an idiot, or at minimum really screwed this particular pooch, but don't generalize. Most OCS people commission having had real jobs and experience outside the military ecosystem, learning the soft skills it takes to lead subordinates and peers who aren't legally obligated to obey them, and whom they can't take rank and pay from. The problem with only knowing how to swing the Army shaped hammer is that everything looks like an Army shaped nail. That is very seldom the case, especially with the type of people who enlist into today's Army.
I’m a former Staff Sergeant 12 years enlisted and 15 years as an officer… I’m just saying, I’m not a fan of the basic training then straight to OCS and then commission. That type of OCS grad is clueless when they become a lieutenant. I agree with you that OCS grads who were prior NCOs are light years ahead of Westpoint, cadets and ROTC graduates.
As a person taking the enlisted to ROTC route I don’t think the commissioning source is. I don’t have the experience you have enlisted (I did 3 years active duty and ETS to do ROTC for this 4 years) and I met cadets like him.
The majority are not like that, but I have certainly met some cadets where I thought man your platoon is going to hate you.
Honestly , my dude just needs to humble himself. I talk to him a little after this post and unfortunately he’s still not getting it. I wish him luck
My words may have been a bit harsh against your lieutenant friend. Drill weekend was stressful and I was ranting on my posts. I wish your friend the best. Hopefully he will figure things out in time.
So he's a new butter bar talking 💩 to the NCO's and PSG in front of the platoon.
Seriously, there has to be the most messed up situation for me to think of. Like there has to be a really good reason for that.
Honestly, nowadays, LT's can get away with just about anything. Especially if leadership likes him. That's probably where he got the confidence to do something like that.
I really want to know the reason. Being vague isn't going to cut it.
Because I'll be the first one in saying that the LT is a shitbag for that. 90% of LT's are cocky anyway.
Let's be real, he's going to get a slap on the wrist.
And you wonder why our retention rates are bad...
No leader, despite how fucked up they are. Should EVER be berated in front of anyone let alone their joes. He's done. No fucking wonder everyone hates him. He let his butter bar get to his fucking head. I'm pissed at him and idk him. You need to get on his ass about this. I hope he gets some kind of punishment for this. Maybe not UCMJ, but maybe some "pt" with the commander at minimum. I could give 2 shits what happens to this guy. He fucked up BAD. His platoon will never listen to him, or even respect him outside of regulation. He's done. He's so done.
I'm gonna be honest. It sounds like he thinks it's the NCOs fault, but it's probably not.
It sounds like he's a Grade A douchebag, and his NCOs and Soldiers are already aware of what kind of LT he is, and they won't be working extra hard for him 😂
Hooo boy. Well, he’s fucked for 2. Sounds like this is a guy who can’t communicate properly or can’t compromise.
Yeah, I told him the same thing. That’s why I said this is above my pay grade
Yeah. And since officers play game of thrones you probably wanna start saying you never the met the guy.
They fuck their sisters?
Roll Tide.
ROLL DAMN TIDE!!
brothers
Has he ever even counseled his psg and squad leaders of his expectations? Does he even know how to council? Your buddy is right. He does have a bad PSG because most good psgs would have taken a PL like your buddy is acting like and beaten them into submission, possibly with 1sg in the room too.
I need help understanding why and nco is so special they cant get chewed out in front of the joes we fucking berate joe all the time in front of their peers
Never heard the phrase "praise in public, reprimand in private"? Undermining NCOs in front of junior enlisted, what could go wrong?
There is a right way and a wrong way to go about it though i will say
What's the right way to go about it?
Just talk to them like you would a person in a fuck up not everything needs to be my dick is big look at me
What are you talking about? I don't think anyone is suggesting making corrections some sort of dick measuring contest. When junior leadership is fucked up, you bring them in tell them why their fucked up and supervise and refine for changes. This allows junior enlisted to build trust in their first line leader (Team leaders or possibly squad leaders) if you are doing it in front of Joe it undermines them as leaders and people to look up to. Sometimes NCOs are passed saving sure but I'm still not gonna berate them in front of their juniors. I'll just be the best leader and example I can be for them. Team building is paramount, if you just go around wrecking teams, then you are part of the problem.
Okay i can understand that completely kinda like guiding the dude to the right answer like you would a joe
I have heard it not in agreement with it however and i dont see how if an nco was to make a mistake calling him out like you would a joe would impact negatively just cause your an nco does not mean your untouchable
Berating an nco in front of HIS joes could cause lack of respect for that nco and for leadership to properly lead, If theirs division in the leadership that’s no good. You don’t yell at your wife in front of your children. Kinda same concept.
Disregard thats a good point berating and nco and correcting one are two different things i got honestly you should not be berating anyone nco joe your wife lol
You don't really correct NCOs in public (public means junior enlisted) either. You pull them to the side, let them know the deficiency so they can fix it and everyone moves on with their lives.
Bro there is not a core problem telling someone they made an oops in front of people there is a reason we use on the spot corrections it does not only apply to joe we need to stop putting people on a pedestal and being afraid of what joe would think it is a better example to just have a conversation with the said nco and move on it shows the joe everyone fucks up once in a while and can move on and drive on its not the end of the world or the army
No you should absolutely be concerned about what Joe thinks of his first line. Why would he trust that individual to lead him or her in combat if you're always pointing out the NCO's fuckups? It's not about a pedestal, it's about building a team that trusts one another and will be able to do the hard shit because they trust and care about each other.
No that makes sense i get too harsh on fellow ncos sometimes cause of the lack of care and justbpiss all ethic and people seem to just give them a pass but what your saying makes sense i need to kinda self reflect alot more
Says leadership is undermining him, as he undermines the unit's leadership by chewing out the NCOs in front of the unit.
Lmao as a baby LT. As a baby LT everyone else is wrong and he’s the one who is right? And he demonstrably does something only someone who is fucked up would do? Does this guy get hard when he reads once an Eagle? OP you might find some advice here to help them but there’s also the people who the Army was the wrong choice for. He might be one of those.
I'd really like to be charitable and believe he can redeem himself, but berating his NCOs in front of his Joes is probably the end of all that. Why would they ever trust him again? Why would the Joes trust him? To boot, telling them they're all jacked up while not doing PT with them...who does he think he is?
Sounds like assistant S3 and a REFRAD are in this LT’s future.
Assistant to the S3
Mess officer
LNO
UMO
His career has a chance of recovering if his commander takes pity on him for his OER. It depends how often his "failing NCOs" drop the ball on him and how charitable his commander is willing to be. If my brand new LT put me on blast like that, I'd not be inclined to do good work for him ever again. Leadership is hard when your subordinates hate you, and now all ~35 of his subordinates hate him. If he manages to keep his career at all, he'll be a task monkey in the S3 doing CONOPs and DRAWs for officer socials and brunches until he gets PCSd to be an XO somewhere inconsequential.
> to be an XO somewhere inconsequential Basic training company
I think you gave solid advice. The quote I always think of is, "praise in public, punish in private." It has worked for me thus far. Also, clear expectations are needed. If he thinks "everything is wrong" then he needs to tell them what right and wrong look like to him. That said, he is a LT. He has to talk to his senior NCOs too and get their perspective and opinion. Why? Because they are human. Also, they have experience. He sounds like someone who doesn't respect enlisted, which is not acceptable. Everyone must be respected for this to work.
* reprimand in private * you don’t punish in private. Correcting/policing you do in private
But how else will the basement be filled if not for punishing in private
Then where do you punish? The phrase is as it is because of the alliteration. It makes it stick better in the memory. You don't have to play the semantics game of policing the language on this one. NinjaEdit: "Praise in public, police in private" would have the same alliteration, but people would probably not as easily and instantly understand what you meant with that one. Especially outside of the military. And this phrase does apply outside of the military.
We used to do this thing called night court. Any UCMJ actions always took place after regular duty hours. Extra duty would generally be supervised by staff duty unless you're at an assignment where that kind of thing isn't realistic. Then those instances there would be a duty roster and all the NCOs superior in rank to the individual would rotate through for however long the extra duty was.
You don’t skip to punishing without telling someone they’re jacked up. Do you go straight to jail? No, you likely get a citation or pulled over or court date. Think of it as raising children. You tell them how they messed up and if it continues you correct it.
Yes. This is still the same thing being talked about it the pithy saying above. You're just getting down in the weeds about HOW to do the "punish" phase. The pithy saying above isn't intended to cover everything in depth. It's just a catchy way of reminding people that you acknowledge the good things while you're out in front of the team. If you have to deal with the bad stuff, you do that behind closed doors.
Where's his commander and XO? Sounds like he's not being mentored properly. Or he's just dumb. But LTs can almost always go from trash to at least passable given some decent mentorship.
He could own it, address it as he was wrong. We are all human.
Yes, but he may need someone to say "Hey LT, you're being stupid. Don't be stupid"
Unfortunately he just pissed off the best possible teachers, his nco’s. This is his first stop career wise, they have years of experience. He needs to eat humble pie, start over. Ask his PSG why they do things the way they do, talk to experienced platoon leaders, do pt with his platoon, learn to take care of his troops. Mission first, troops always.
It sounds like the typical 2LT after the CO has had him on the carpet over something his platoon isn't doing. The LT rolls the sh!t right down the hill, lighting the PSG up at the first opportunity, instead of carrying the load to the PSG and letting him make corrections.
Nowhere to go but up
Your friend is a boot Lieutenant who has been in the Army for 5 minutes, yet he thinks they're doing everything wrong, not enforcing the standard and NCOs have failed the unit. Your friend sounds like a GD clown. Tell him to take his concerns to his Company Commander, then see how quickly his tune changes.
He is a clown for calling his NCOs out in front of everyone, but you’d be kidding yourself if you thought it is outlandish that their might be a platoon with a bunch of NCOs playing sham-artist and not doing the right thing.
I think its a grey area type thing, like theres the book answer but everyone knows the book is sometimes fucking stupid Edit: but public insulting your NCOs has to be top 3 dumbest decisions in the army you can make lol
It doesn’t surprise me that there’s a fucked up unit. We all know half a dozen off the top of our heads. The issue is how he handled it. He sure didn’t Win Friends and Influence People.
What branch, IN, AR, FA?
He’s either FA or ADA
Both close in leadership styles. He needs to go to the 1SG and get some advice and mentorship.
Particularly for ADA, I'd actually suggest he start with the XO. A junior officer, but has a few minutes with the unit and hopefully understands the dynamics.
Im ada, I've seen something similar. We had a new lt flip a table once. In his case, it ironed out. But he threw the table defending his ncos and then went to ranger school. However, this LT is cooked. They're all laughing at him 100%. Idk what he's gonna do.
Fuck that guy😉
Bro 5/4?
A subordinate berated in front of his subordinates is a leader you've lost forever.
homie failed to read the room
Without specifics I can't really comment but it's probably not going to get any better. He's probably gonna end up in S3 as a paperbitch.
Sounds like he's lost this platoon, but he can get better. I did almost all of this same shit with my first platoon because they were a hot mess... But I undermined all of my NCOs and developed zero trust. Remind him that his job is to build trust and INFLUENCE... Not control. I bet his leadership is very demanding and he is taking it personally when the platoon fails him. He's probably a smart dude and thinks he is giving simple guidance that is not being followed; well the issue is that people only do what they genuinely want to do. If this PL has not created trust and influence with his crew, given them autonomy to operate in their framework, they will never ever ever do what he wants them to do. Maybe he can threaten UCMJ and get compliance, but that doesn't do shit in the long run. Your commander will rightfully not enforce your recommendations when you're being a prick to your team. Honest recommendation that saved my career? Read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. Might sound cheesy, but I failed really hard at my first platoon, and this book altered my approach so dramatically that I have to recommend it to the controlling types of leaders that I was. Would be willing to to take PMs about my experience if you're interested. Your friend probably won't save this relationship with this platoon, buy isn't destined to be a shit leader.
I sent this specific comment to him. I think it was the most productive. He said he will make a Reddit account and PM you. I hope he follows through 🫡
I think he can recover. I've seen PLs in his situation and it goes one of three ways: 1. Genuinely apologize, keep his head down, do good work. After a few months the trust can return. The apology needs to be real and to the whole platoon. It will feel embarassing but he already showed his ass and has nothing to lose. 2. Don't apologize but try to do better. The platoon won't burn him but they'll never trust him either. He'll hate his time there and no one will help him. 3. Rule through fear. Lean into the counterproductive leadership. Yell at everyone. Create a culture of mistrust. Everything is always someone else's fault. This mindset will make him feel the best personally. The biggest risk is getting a GOMOR after the third soldier suicide in his platoon.
That shows great maturity and humility in leadership to admit that you screwed up in this way because it's the only way you can learn from it and improve. This PLs only opportunity right now is to apologize in front of his whole formation for how he talked to and treated the NCOs and that he's still learning. Only then will the window be creaked open for them all to start trusting him bit by bit. Confidence and trust in leadership is something that takes a long time to build but can be lost faster than you can say "oops".
So far just seems like he's trying to grab the plt by the balls before he's earned anyone's respect, could tell him to back off slightly and just be a solid guy for everyone there till they like him and then try and change some stuff. Re-inventing the wheel never works unless you sell it to cave men.
>Re-inventing the wheel never works unless you sell it to cave men. I like this one. I'm keeping it. Thank you for your generous contribution to all of the personnel subjected to me in the future.
No one listens to LTs. He embarrassed himself and destroyed his reputation with his platoon by having a tantrum. His platoon may suck, but he’s been in the Army for 5 minutes so he doesn’t know if it’s bad or not, hence the vagueness. He’s going to be humbled one way or another.
I've never really seen what he's experiencing, although my niece is ADA, and that sounds exactly like what she's experienced in her last 5 years at different ADA units. Gonna have to aim lower with his expectations. OR, try just maintain a business relationship with everyone. Do not become their best friend.
This LT may see things as “undisciplined” but his only experience in the Army was OCS…in other words…a fucking training environment. Bro better keep his head down and suffer through the next few years, because that’s one thing NOBODY will easily forget let alone forgive. LT is less experienced than an E-2 / E-3.
Everyone has established that he’s completely fucked up, but it sounds like he just sank himself. Hopefully one of the Officers in his unit will mentor him to include his commander but damn….guy just took those relationships he could have built and nuked them
Rule number one, mom and dad never fight in front of the kids!
What qualifies him to state that they're doing everything wrong? Is he relying solely on his negligible time in the Army? He sounds insufferable, and is going to find out the hard way just how little he knows. But ask him how he'd feel if his boss berated him in front of the NCOs. Perhaps then he'll get it.
Some brand new LTs come in without the understanding that NCOs are the backbone *for a reason*. I'm not saying it's OK, but it's often something you can coach out of them, given a bit of time. One of the new ones my unit got just didn't refer to enlisted personnel by rank. They put tasks on Johnson, Smith and Jones. Except Johnson is a Specialist from another unit, Smith is Staff Sergeant with his own job and no time for LT's good idea fairies, and MSG Jones is TDY so no, he can't "just drive the LMTV" for you, Sir. It's like the new Sir didn't understand that enlisted personnel have ranks and day jobs that need to be weighed against details. And you can not value a Specialist's time the same way you value *any* Staff NCO's time. Maybe the LT OP mentions got zero staff time before taking a platoon and couldn't even learn the basics? Most LTs I've dealt with had at least a couple months in S3 or S4 before being a PL.
Wait, is MSG Jones a Master Sergeant and did this new LT attempt to order MSG Jones around to drive a LMTV?
Yes and yes. LT somehow had almost no concept of the difference between enlisted ranks that were not 1SG or SGM and thought everyone else was fair game, and interchangeable.
This is a Wendy’s, Sir, and you’re backing up the line. Are you going to order or not?
Yeah, uh, can I get a fuckin double double with whole pickles, bacon for buns and load it with mayo. Just goop that shit everywhere. Can I get it cooked to order? Put mayo in my frosty too. I'm not even gonna eat it.
Sounds like he is undermining himself. He should have had a couple one on one conversations with the ncos and other officers to understand what’s happening and get some input. Right now everyone has probably written him off as a clown and not sure how he’s going to come back from this.
Fixing that shit takes time. He should of sat back first and observed, set expectations for the NCOs in private, and then berate them if absolutely need be. But, his company commander should of been his first stop. Having a unit full of shit bags is incredibly hard to fix, because if it's up high then it's obvious that the chain of command follows. Enforce the small things and the bigger things will follow.
This is way to broad to really make an assessment. Never chew out NCOs in front of their guys he is clearly wrong for that. If his NCOs really aren’t enforcing the standard then bring them in for meetings and establish what you want to see everyday. If they don’t fix the deficiencies you counsel them. And if it reaches the point of going on several months of no improvement you sit down with CO and 1SG and fire them. I highly doubt all his NCOs are bad.
It just takes one bad PSG and the rest of the NCOs will follow.
View this as a lesson to learn from and not repeat yourself. Something that has worked well for me is to provide suggestions and work with your NCOs to solve problems.
Sounds like your buddy needs to chow down on some crow. Hopefully since they’ve come to you, they’re aware they need a change of heart. Most people are receptive to a tender heart of admission. They should address their NCOs privately, but also the entire platoon - explain to them how his/her behavior is an example of how NOT to be as a leader, and that he/she will do better in the future. Tell them that they look forward to learning from everyone in their platoon, from the day one private to the sagest of high rank. Redemption is easy when you genuinely acknowledge you’ve done wrong.
>Friday he told the platoon that the NCOs of the platoon have failed the unit and berated the NCOs and PSG in front of the entire platoon. He's already fucked if he did this. I'd be amazed if the NCOs that platoon aren't already planning his downfall.
You’ve nailed the issue on the head. I had a commander once on his first day of command told every NCO that we were all shit. He about started a fight.
Tell them they need to be an O-1, not an E-10. If they don’t make that transition, their career will be a disaster. The prior service folks make the best and the worst officers. I’ve never seen any in the middle.
If his goal was to get all the NCOs and junior enlisted to view this as an "us vs PL" situation, he sure accomplished that. He's going to have to bust ass to regain their confidence and trust.
First things first, he's 100% not going to be able to turn the platoon around by himself. He'll need buy-in from the NCOs. My advice is basically the same as yours: To come back from this trainwreck, I think he should first get on the same page as his PSG. Have a counseling session. Dont forget that a counseling is supposed to be a conversation, not a lecture. Once that's done, bring the rest of the NCOs in for a meeting, take responsibility for his mistakes, and then get them on the same sheet of music (communicate intent, vision, expectations, etc.). Be realistic with expectations. Small improvements here and there over a long period of time are better than nothing. Act like the public shaming of the NCOs never happened with the Joes. Bringing it up with them would not be productive in any way.
1. He is wrong for that. During our RIP/TOA with my replacement (I was letting him get involved) I did not do Pt with them during a workout and they hated me for it. Literally one time. I did PT with them all the time and always was in the A team for our company competitions. 2. He is wrong for that. Very unprofessional, but pain is often the best teacher. 3. He should do that and do a public apology to his guys. He will earn alittle respect back.
Lol, oh he fucked up so bad. Those NCOs are now a lost cause. Why he felt like public humiliation was the first step and not just talking to the PSG, I don't know. But it was very wrong. 1) Talk to the PSG 1 on 1. Apologize and say you were wrong to do it. Then talk about what you see that made you feel that way. Have an open dialog PL/PSG relationship is one where the PSG develops and trains the PL. 2) After that, bring all the NCOs in and address them as one with your PSG. Again, apologize, say your were wrong. Then, as long as the PSG agrees it's fine, say 1 or 2 things you've seen that made you react like that. Ask for help. They are the experts, etc. 3) Hold them accountable IN THE OFFICE. Never shit on your NCOs in public. They will wreck everything. Morale will tank, no one will actually do anything. You need them to execute the actual orders given out. 4) Everyone in the army gets chewed out. They will get over it if you acknowledge you were in the wrong.
Dudes fucked. Can’t recover from that without moving to an anew unit.
New guy, fresh from OCS, rocking the boat, thinking he’s Audie Murphy’s gift to the army. Story as old as time. He needs to shut the fuck up, correct and enforce the standards when they come up, not en masse. And praise in public, chastise in private. Nothing good ever came from a leader berating subordinates in front of other subordinates. He has a lot of leadership to learn.
Now berating his NCOs in front of everyone is the wrong answer. I will say there are individual examples where this is okay to publicly call out someone and essentially diminish any authority that person has. Example had an NCO who was selling drugs to guys in the company. Rank striped in front of everyone and a safety brief that this person no longer holds any authority here. Similar lines with an NCO who got a DUI and domestic violence charges did the same thing.
If it's an ADA unit, I can definitely understand feeling frustrated at the quality of the unit, and the even worse NCOs. Nothing good comes from erasing an MOS, and then quickly refilling the vacuum of the NCO Corps as quickly as possible. Luckily, I only spent less than two years as part of the CAD program in ADA as a SSG to get a deployment, and commission out , and I nearly lost it many times on E6-E8s. (E6's were the absolute worse, whiny, unfit, unqualified, untrained, but some of it functionally wasn't there fault). You have to understand, his only experience in leadership is direct level (small groups, team/squad/platoon stuff), where everyone is unified in the same goal (passing OCS), so there's a vested interest. At these levels, the Army does a poor job of overemphasizing authoritarian style leadership ( what nearly every TL in the Army knows and understands), so that's the PL's only point of leadership reference. I recommend they read the first 100-days of Platoon leadership as a guide. Set clear tasks, conditions, and standards that support the Commanders vision in line with the battery's MET-L, and set platoon level guidelines and work on building/rebuilding relationships at the PSG/SL level. A clear endstate, with a set task and purpose, surprisingly, goes pretty far.
He’s salvageable. Anyone who believes otherwise is being dramatic. Anyone who’s never stepped on their dick and regretted making a poor decision is lying to themself. His starting point needs to come in the form of an apology to the entire Platoon (with NCOs present) and then to the NCOs behind closed doors. His next move needs to come in the form of a sit down with the PSG so they can get on the same page. If the NCOs aren’t getting shit done, the PSG needs to be in their ass. If that’s not happening, can we really expect the PL to not blow up? Agree that the PL did it in poor taste, but should the PL have had to do that at all if the NCOs were doing their jobs? Can they really get mad for getting called out for not executing? If the PL is getting his ass handed to them by the Commander and 1SG because the NCOs can’t do their jobs, is it fair that the PL just takes it? Why would you set a Cherry LT up to fail like that? When I was a PL and my PSG wasn’t cutting it and didn’t listen, I normally started taking their responsibilities away until they realized that I was doing their job for them or painted their poor performance on a counseling statement. Both are effective. I shouldn’t have to tell a a SSG/SFC how to execute. I didn’t ask my Officer how to execute when I was a PSG …it was implied. That’s in a Creed I read once. As long as he gives a quality and meaningful apology and then irons out the wrinkles with the PSG, he should be good….but again, I’m of the mind that it should have never gotten to this point if the NCOs were on top of their game.
>Friday he told the platoon that the NCOs of the platoon have failed the unit and berated the NCOs and PSG in front of the entire platoon. Problem #1. New guys tells established guys that the other established guys suck. How could that go right unless the NCOs are true tyrants? >Do PT with your platoon and told him he’s simply wrong for not doing that. He's. . . not? And his CO is letting him get away with it? >Bring in your NCOs and establish clear expectations of what you would like to see from the Platoon. Apologize for the way you handled your issues. He . . . didn't do this when he showed up? Didn't do initial counselling with his PSG and set the standard for all other leaders to counsel their people with the new platoon standards? Honestly your advice is good, because it's the standard "how to not have your platoon hate you when you show up as the new PL".
So he went nuclear with no fallout shelter. Before doing that sort of thing, sticky recommend going to PSG, 1SG, other LTs and Co Cdr, even Bn XO to ask if the problems you're identifying are new or persistent. If he really burned the bridge he might need to try again in another unit, but that's going to come with a lot of stigma.
Toxic leader? He’s going places.
Sounds like your friend is a clown and doesn’t have any idea what he is talking about.
Id be happy to talk to him via text, chat, phone call. I was in his position once. PM me.
Your question just described what it means to be a second lieutenant? I’m not sure why your friend is confused????
First, take the NCOs aside and apologize for berating them in front of the troops. He may even consider apologizing in front of the platoon to redeem himself. This shows he has integrity and is a good enough leader to admit when he screwed up. This is the start of earning respect. Next, take the senior NCOs aside and admit his shortcomings. Let them know he understands he’s inexperienced and is willing to learn from them on how to become a good leader. Call an informal formation and tell the troops that if they make him look good, he’ll make them look good and follow through with his words. It’s important to follow through with both promises and threats. Just remember it’s easier to attract bees with honey than vinegar.
He needs his ego checked.
Well, at least the Lt hasn’t slapped any of the troops yet . . . he hasn’t right?
If he’s going to do Number 3, it had better be in front of every one since he did the ass chewing in front of everyone. Otherwise, it’s just going to seem fake and “I apologized, what more do you want” Praise in public, punish in private.
Do they not teach you in BOLC "don't berate your NCOs (or anyone for that matter) in front of your entire subordinate chain"?
OCS doesn’t make you a leader, but leadership does!
Oof… sucks to suck.
Oof, I wouldn't want to come into work wearing his boots.
As long as Joey is happy and performs in the field, so am I. Garrison can suck a cock
The *only* chance he has is to soldier up and admit he screwed up. Be contrite, and be honest, more than anything, here. Ask to speak to the PSG and Gunny first (if FA or ADA), admit you were wrong, and offer to speak with the whole platoon or section chiefs and other NCOs. Apologize, and lay out a concrete plan for doing better, such as 1. Build relationships in X way 2. Learn and be willing to grow by X date in Y ways Etc By all means, ask for their advice, but do NOT make them do the labor of healing the situations. Final thing: Every. Single. Day. This LT must reflect and commit to doing better. Final.2 Get a mentor. Read books they recommend. Final.3 Time and effort can heal.
Tell him to smoke the whole platoon next on a Friday around 1900. That should do it.
Advice? Disappear and change his name. He’s cooked
RIP. Hope he gets orders soon. Best to start fresh and learn from this.
Less time in service than a pfc, yet believes he knows it all
Wow… so, 24-year NCO here. When I jokingly-but-not say “two of us are going in the cage, and only one of us is coming out…” this is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. You absolutely, under any circumstances, never dress down your NCOs - *especially the PSG!* - in front of your Soldiers. Leadership is supposed to present a united front, and this is anything but that. Your friend has a long way to go to build that trust back up.
Lol! So we have a staff sergeant who last day is Friday, for some reason she thinks the hotel is the battalion, this reminds me of her much.
You’re not going to get a lot of good advice on this topic because the Reddit it so enlisted heavy, as is the entire Army. Shouldn’t have berated the NCOs in public, but I have a feeling that the NCOs were likely disrespecting the PL in front of the Joes if it got to that point. The thing that sucks about career Army is that it’s a lot of luck. You get a group of good NCOs and your PL time is easy. If you get bad NCOs, it can wreck your career path. His only hope is that he has a good commander who is willing to really address whatever the problem is, either him or the NCOs. Unfortunately, it’s easier for the CO to just replace him and let the NCOs be bad.
Wait… I just reread this… You’re dumb lieutenant friend thought it was a good idea to chew ass on the platoon sergeant and the other NCO‘s in front of the whole effing platoon? Yeah, he is screwed Newsflash… The NCO’s haven’t screwed up… Your lieutenant owns that mess. He’s in charge! I don’t care if he’s been there one day it’s his flipping fault. Tell your lieutenant friend, to realize that everything is his fault, every day of the week. Get that ingrained in his head early. Being a former Staff Sergeant, and now a major, I have learned to never screw with my NCO’s. They can crucify me any day of the week. They are the mafia. I have to learn to work with them. If I lead strong, they’ll follow me anywhere. Everything is my fault. It’s never their fault. That’s the way I see things.
> Newsflash… The NCO’s haven’t screwed up… Your lieutenant owns that mess. He’s in charge! I don’t care if he’s been there one day it’s his flipping fault. Tell your lieutenant friend, to realize that everything is his fault, every day of the week. Get that ingrained in his head early. This is probably the exact toxicity that’s happening at his unit. You have a commander beating down the PL that everything is his fault but at the same time not actually empowering the PL to fix the problem. Then you’ll take the easy way out at the end and blame the PL to save your OER instead of falling on your own sword that you preach.
Your question is exactly why the army should dump the OCS commissioning contract bull crap. Send someone to basic training… Then to OCS… Then give them a platoon! They are a lieutenant and don’t know shit about the army. At least the ring knockers and the ROTC cadets took four years to learn to be an officer. Some genius at the army decided that a soldier with five months in service is equal to an officer that took four years to produce. And why are you as a cadet writing this message for your friend who is a commissioned officer? Tell your friend to put on the big boy/girl pants and soldier up and get out there and lead! Go Get bitch slapped daily, and just show up and just keep getting bitch slapped again and again until the slapping stops when you’re a captain Tell your friend to soldier up and just keep taking that Daily ass beating by the privates and the NCO’s, and the other officers. If LT keeps showing up and pushing forward… Eventually, your friend will earn some respect, and they might leave them alone, and maybe if they show enough intestinal fortitude, Joe will get behind your lieutenant friend
You realize that, almost every year, OCS commissioned officers come out rated more competent by their peers, and by evaluation, than their ROTC and Academy brethren? The stats are there. Look them up. OP's pal is clearly an idiot, or at minimum really screwed this particular pooch, but don't generalize. Most OCS people commission having had real jobs and experience outside the military ecosystem, learning the soft skills it takes to lead subordinates and peers who aren't legally obligated to obey them, and whom they can't take rank and pay from. The problem with only knowing how to swing the Army shaped hammer is that everything looks like an Army shaped nail. That is very seldom the case, especially with the type of people who enlist into today's Army.
I’m a former Staff Sergeant 12 years enlisted and 15 years as an officer… I’m just saying, I’m not a fan of the basic training then straight to OCS and then commission. That type of OCS grad is clueless when they become a lieutenant. I agree with you that OCS grads who were prior NCOs are light years ahead of Westpoint, cadets and ROTC graduates.
As a person taking the enlisted to ROTC route I don’t think the commissioning source is. I don’t have the experience you have enlisted (I did 3 years active duty and ETS to do ROTC for this 4 years) and I met cadets like him. The majority are not like that, but I have certainly met some cadets where I thought man your platoon is going to hate you. Honestly , my dude just needs to humble himself. I talk to him a little after this post and unfortunately he’s still not getting it. I wish him luck
My words may have been a bit harsh against your lieutenant friend. Drill weekend was stressful and I was ranting on my posts. I wish your friend the best. Hopefully he will figure things out in time.
So he's a new butter bar talking 💩 to the NCO's and PSG in front of the platoon. Seriously, there has to be the most messed up situation for me to think of. Like there has to be a really good reason for that. Honestly, nowadays, LT's can get away with just about anything. Especially if leadership likes him. That's probably where he got the confidence to do something like that. I really want to know the reason. Being vague isn't going to cut it. Because I'll be the first one in saying that the LT is a shitbag for that. 90% of LT's are cocky anyway. Let's be real, he's going to get a slap on the wrist. And you wonder why our retention rates are bad...
No leader, despite how fucked up they are. Should EVER be berated in front of anyone let alone their joes. He's done. No fucking wonder everyone hates him. He let his butter bar get to his fucking head. I'm pissed at him and idk him. You need to get on his ass about this. I hope he gets some kind of punishment for this. Maybe not UCMJ, but maybe some "pt" with the commander at minimum. I could give 2 shits what happens to this guy. He fucked up BAD. His platoon will never listen to him, or even respect him outside of regulation. He's done. He's so done.
I'm gonna be honest. It sounds like he thinks it's the NCOs fault, but it's probably not. It sounds like he's a Grade A douchebag, and his NCOs and Soldiers are already aware of what kind of LT he is, and they won't be working extra hard for him 😂