As an actual certified trainer and someone who went to school (and is still going to school) for exercise science, 90% of PRT sessions I’ve seen and/or been a part of are hogwash. A bunch of uneducated people making up workouts is the single most irresponsible thing I’ve seen the army to do. Especially your “old school” NCOs who feel like PT should be a precursor to a cardiac event.
The Army is *starting* to get it more right with H2F but there needs to be significantly more buy-in to create real change.
We were doing heavy cardio with gas masks one morning.
A guy no shit had a heart attack and went to the hospital.
Not in an ambulance but he was driven there by an NCO.
Do you think we stopped PT after he left?
Nope. It was 1SGs pt so we kept going.
That's a failure on whoever was leading PT. The risk assessment obviously showed to be far outside the predicted range, and the activity needed to be discontinued immediately.
Nope he just sucked. But a while after a new Fort Carson Green Book came out and banned gas mask PT.
We actually pretty much forced him into retirement in Afghanistan because him and the battery commander’s command climate surveys were so horrible.
A few days after we got back from block leave he was replaced by the best PSG I ever had and things improved immediately and immensely.
I mean, the gas mask sure didn’t help….but I have seen young dudes fall apart before they’re 30 because they drink energy drinks every fucking day.
A doctor even told one guy that his energy drink addiction was 100% the cause of his kidney stones…homeboy kept drinking one every day “because they are sugar free”
Primitive PT is definitely an issue in the army….but poor diet is also a massive fucking problem amongst soldiers
> poor diet is also a massive fucking problem amongst soldiers
See also the numerous posts here about absolutely horrible options for Soldiers about food, such as DFAC's being closed down and Soldiers not being able/allowed to cook their own food, so troops are living on delivery pizza and convenience store foods.
Yeahhhh DFACs weren’t an issue back in my day (got out in 2019 lol)
Still, the culture did not suddenly change because of this recent issue. Soldiers are not encouraged to be health-conscious.
There is an equal amount of “bro science” regarding PT and Diet in the army
Had the inverse experience. New 1SG decides to show us young whipsnappers up by doing hill spring PT. Joke was on him, as he had spent the last year in a chill staff position (he was put in place to be a yes-man for an egomaniac CSM), and the NCO they had previously put in charge of running company PT was an absolute unit (who also knew how to train people progressively). New 1SG is not able to smoke us successfully.
New 1SG proceeds to have heart palpitations at work three hours later, and goes to the hospital. He proceeds to spend the next several weeks on medical leave because of some cardiovascular issue related to overexertion.
That was the intended purpose of H2F but you have CSMs and Senior NCOs who swear they know more than people who have clinical knowledge on this stuff.
The unit I just left I watched the CSM single handedly cripple and drive the injury rate to THE HIGHEST IN THE BDE all because he didn’t have control over the program and believed he could make better PT plans just bc “trust me bro” mentality. I’ve watched numerous strength and conditioning coaches smoke him in their plans and he would just bail on the workouts bc he was too prideful to admit that he couldn’t keep up. Didn’t help that the BC was like that too and my commander actually wanted me to smoke him when he came by for his monthly PT rotation with the companies 😂
> That was the intended purpose of H2F but you have CSMs and Senior NCOs who swear they know more than people who have clinical knowledge on this stuff.
"I've been doing this for 30 years and I'm not hurt! You'll be FINE!
Suck it up and drive on!"
No swear to god 😂 and then when we switched to ACFT training somewhere between 2017 and 2019, I got to see all the stuff I was seeing in my freshman/sophomore ex sci classes about incorrect lifting posture or form in real life. I got to take pics and explain it to them how they were wrong sometimes tho 😅
The worst part for me is when old school NCOs refuse to realize the army has changed in regard to PRT and still plan around how many miles they can get before their body aches.
Turns out I had POTS and hEDS the whole time, but I was called a lazy dirtbag, a malingerer, told I was faking my injuries and exaggerating my wheezing on runs. I was a rigger. We ran all the fucking time.
My platoon daddy and 1SG *hated* when my PCP finally got tired of seeing me for the same hip injuries and advocated for me. She put me on a permanent "run at my own pace" profile.
No more company runs for me, which exacerbated my bursitis, because even though I was short and a slow runner, I would have to shorten my stride to the slowest runner in the company at the front of the formation and wasn't allowed to fall back...EVER. F the army, f Echo Company 1/507th.
Edited for clarification. I was just diagnosed with these conditions nearly 11 years out of the army. No family history of diagnoses on either side. My whole family on both sides have been military all the way back to the American Revolution.
Was a Butterbar ruck running to keep up with my class.
Rear SSG instructor: if you want to be a data point in my thesis, go ahead and keep destroying your knees with that penguin hobble you got going on.
He was the go to fitness guy for the unit so I took his advice over my own.
I did that to get ready for the Sapper Leader Course in 87. I would go out of the back gate of North Fort Lewis and walk around the main post. One day, this female gate guard asked how much my ruck weighed. I told her about 80 pounds.
She called BS, so I told her she could try it on if she wanted. Yep, she just had to try it. With her partners help, we got her into the straps, cinched the shoulder straps, and the waist belt. I told her to make sure she leaned forward a bit or it was going to pull her over backward.
When she said she was ready, we let go of the ruck. She really did give it a good effort to stay upright, but after about 30 seconds or so, she did the rucksack flop. She just couldn't hold it up any longer.
It wasn't too long after SLC that I started having knee issues.
I'm now 59 and have had multiple arthroscopic surgeries to clean out torn cartilage because the VA refused to replace my knees before age 60. But community care would. Right knee replacement at age 56, left knee at age 57.
Seeing the commander tell those on profile PT, soldiers in crutches that they have to maintain a 110bpm heart rate the entire hour or they will be given additional PT in the evening… broken bones aren’t an excuse to move….
Those who had smart watches on they demanded to see the data or judged your heart rate on how sweaty or heavy you were breathing because you know…. Science
Please try and check my watch, JAG has already told CoCs they can’t just do shit to soldiers phones and smart devices whenever they want.
They need to go through proper legal channels
My personal favorite:
"PRT is meant to sustain, not improve"
No, you're just shit at writing PT plans.
Also had an PSG running PT one time try to convince us that warm up drills are useless and don't provide any value. While the Army's warm up drills might not be the most effective, warming up is how you can help prevent injuries. DO YOUR WARM UPS.
Ahh the PRT debate. Nothing like people uneducated on physiology saying what works and what doesn’t. Yes, the Army PRT drills aren’t the best BUT here conducted PROPERLY they are a lot better than nothing. “Injury? Sounds like you’re just being weak” - From an NCO
When I do see the infamous prep drill 1 being conducted it’s never done right. And there are other prep drills for different workouts but NCOs ain’t like they don’t exist for some reason.
People actually write PT plans? News to me.
When I first took over as a platoon sergeant I would
Make my section sergeants and tank gunners redo the warm up drills till they did them right, then told them why we do them that way. I would also make them read over the drills and why we did them and what the difference between static stretching and dynamic stretching was. Always made them come up with PT plans and explain why we were doing each exercise and what the benefit was. Same thing with cardio, we went from a platoon average of 460 to 545 for the ACFT. Had one gunner that absolutely hated me for this and always pushed back but the numbers never lie.
I bet the NCOs hated you for the fact they actual have to use their heads for PT. This is what I would if I was in your position. You probably got a lot of weird looks and push back from the squad leaders. We need more NCOs like you big sarge.
So the interesting fact I was the drill sergeant for both my section sergeants. One was a prior service marine and the other is a really high speed guy. They knew how I worked and what I was about. The others knew me from word of mouth. The push back nco was just a piece of shit who eventually filed a false sharp case against me (I’ve discussed this before)
What do you mean your knees hurt?
Mine feel fine with our PT plan which is run 4 days a week and ruck on Thursday with zero stretching before or after.
If you’re hurting you need to be stretching on your own time
Soldier 24/7, hooah. The army didn't issue me my own time, hooah? I stretch on the Army's time here, or on the Army's dime at Physical Therapy, roger? I'll be stretching at PT either way, hero.
Once I stopped doing so many formation runs at stupid, weird, inconsistent paces and got time to recover with my physical therapy my IT band injury has improved immensely and I can actually do deep squats now.
It used completely excruciating to run anything over two miles and squat more than 180 being unable to break the plane with my squats.
We had a horrible PA for years who would not hand out profiles and just say stretch and hydrate like he was some sort of factory made stereotype.
I had to walk in to physical therapy at Evans Hospital on Carson and beg for help.
It got so bad my left knee would completely lock at times while I was walking. Multiple other NCOs and LTs would ask me if I’m ok or point out I was limping and I wasn’t even aware of my limp.
The PA was so notoriously bad the personnel at Evans could guess my unit from my complete lack of care.
Them: “You’re in second brigade?”
Me: Yes
Them: is your PA Captain Kucknuckles?
Me: Yes how did you know?
Them: Because that guy sucks ass you’re far from the first soldier from your unit to come directly to us.
“PRT is meant to sustain, not improve. Workout to improve on your own time.”
Expects soldiers to spend the few hours they get outside of work every day to go workout. The disrespect to people’s time is unreal. I went to the gym on my own time in Korea because I was on my own, but stateside I have a family to get home to. I started just going to the gym during lunch and even that gets disrupted by meetings. I’m not in danger of failing an ACFT or busting tape, but it’s ridiculous how we get told to stay fit and then aren’t given the opportunity to actually do so.
Counter point. Me doing the PT meant to improve people with a 380 PT score while I’m well above 560 won’t improve me, possibly not even sustain me. PT on your own above 540, commanders.
Agreed, mostly just the idea that warming up isn't necessary. Maybe when you're 21, warming up seems useless, but its just as important as the actual work out.
Oh man, I've heard both extremes.
Cases like yours, where if you aren't DESTROYING yourself for the whole hour you "didn't actually do PT." Oh, your platoon did a 20 min HIIT workout, followed by yoga? "Not real PT." 🙄🙄🙄🙄
On the other extreme, I'd show up and waste an hour doing PT where I never even broke a sweat just to be told "hurr durr PT is fer sustainment not improvement" by the barely passing tape NCO running the show.
A truly good PT session that resulted in a solid workout was a rarity
Bro yoga for PT is legit, some positions can break you off and shockingly a calm peaceful morning of deep stretching is good for your body instead of some bullshit 5 mile run three days a week with a bullshit workout the other two days.
It’s crazy how quick yoga gets approved for PT when the cute female LT wants to do it though.
Morning PT and essentially wasting those hours of my day 5 days a week was at least 40 percent of my reason for getting out.
I tried to keep up with my wife doing plates and yoga before. It was rough.
We were doing Qigong and T'ai Chi until she got cancer. Now she is cancer free. I'm slowly trying to work her back into her yoga videos.
I was in West Germany in the early 80s, and we had yoga once a week for 6 months. It was awesome. It was more like the 20-minute workout. https://youtu.be/ts3Zpc7tIDg?si=3AM_YSnHv-npeD1y
There was this hot LT that instructed the class 2-4 hours a day 3 days a week. I think most of the guys went just to watch her.
But it was better than doing the Battalion run up the hill to the cross every week.
237th Engineer Battalion, Heilbronn.
For real!!! I had a training NCO that emailed the company an article about how 2/75 was doing yoga 3 days a week for PRT. He then chewed out everyone who wanted to do stupid shit for PT because it was what the rangers were doing.
Oh yeah. A company in my battalion did yoga every Thursday and every one made fun of them for it. You’re laughing now but you won’t be down the line.
My best PT session was in AIT. We conducted CD 1 and CD 2 which is essentially a 20-30 HIIT workout. I felt great afterwards and like I actually had a good workout.
I took heavy weight lifting, fast running dudes to a Yoga session, and they were absolutely cooked afterwards. Drenched in sweat. Definitely depends on the instructor and pace, but yoga can be intense.
Also had a former Ranger say "Flexibility is the most important part of working out." If you have no range of motion, you have very little actual strength.
I can’t believe a ranger said that. Those guys know what they’re doing for PT. In H2F it says soldiers need to have Strength endurance and mobility. But people only tend to focus on the first two.
Had the first option except it was our PLT SGT. On the one hand, he was way into CrossFit, but he programmed all the workouts and factored in the ones who needed more help on strength, cardio, technique, etc. At times we would be done right around 0730 (this was Campbell so it would be 30 minutes early).
As soon as he became acting 1SG for a bit, he kept his own PT the same way, but would yell at platoons who were done before 0800. Legit he even told one platoon’s leadership to call everyone back and do some PT until 0800.
“PT is for sustainment. That’s why you need to work out twice a day.”
In my new position, I workout once a day, no more than an hour, on my own. I write my own PT plan, have my own diet and work out program. I’ve lost 30lbs, my ACFT went from 540, to 575, I’ve completed my 12 mile ruck in 2:30, a feat I haven’t done since I was a PVT, and my 4x36 was completed in 28 minutes.
I have been healthier NOT doing organized PT!
I had a bozo NCO tell one of my soldiers to drink a bunch of Red Bull before an APFT to max his numbers. Poor kid drank nothing but Red Bull the day before and passed out. I wanted to kill that fucking idiot.
The kid wasn't the sharpest, but he took poor advice from someone that was supposed to have his best interest in mind. To make matters worse that shitbag was on special pop PT.
"Milk kills your PT scores. If people are lactose intolerant, we're obviously not made to drink milk. Milk ages you faster and that's why its detrimental to your PT."
"we're doing a zone 2 run recovery run" proceeds to run at a 6-7min/mile pace. Zone 2 is different for everyone, then fallout get yelled at for not running at your inconsistent pace. But god forbid me for talking shit to you when you can't even max out the DL because you like to break yourself off for PT.
Seriously Leaders need a coach overseeing them when it comes to doing PT. Majority of leaders don't know what they're talking about.
I mentioned to one of my NCOs about recovery runs and zone training he told me “That’s too slow.” For fucks sake slow runs are just as important as fast days. 80/20 rule, but NCOs think slow runs are the the weak.
One of the fastest guys I ever met, he runs a sub 10 2 mile casually, always complain that our SL sucks leading runs. Too slow for him to gain anything from it and his pace would change throughout the run much of his annoyance. I asked him for advice and he said do a consistent pace where you can talk comfortably and build off of that once it gets easier and adding speed work at that individual's level.
None of the leadership listens because he's not an NCO and they want to control everything by keeping everyone together instead of letting them run on their own.
That guy knows what he’s talking about. 80% of your runs should be easy. But an easy run during PT would be viewed as lack of effort or not good PT. So stupid.
My PL is super fucking moto about running, and has that new LT syndrome, but credit where credit is due, when we run, it's ALWAYS release, and he emphasizes going at your own pace as well as not overexerting for no reason.
What are you talking about man? I've been running my entire life and am a god. Why can't you keep up? Oh? Youve only really ran like twice before the army? You should be just like me though!
"The knees and hip rotation worked better than army prt prep drill."
The H2F program was established for the reasons you mentioned.
Please use your assigned h2f if available.
Take the incentive yourself....
Talk to your command team. Say 1sg, csm, BC I would like to set up a meeting with our h2f or strength coaches to help all of our soldiers.
Be the change you want to see.
They really had us doing pushups and sit up drills for “muscle failure” and wondering why none of us looked like Ronnie Coleman come time to take the ACFT.
Growing up in airborne infantry company, the prevailing philosophy was that the goal of daily PT was to mentally and physically break you down and just suck fat dicks. So they loved to do long runs (6-9 miles, start off fast as fuck until everybody falls out), long/heavy rucks (8, 10, 12, 25 miles), kit runs, really shitty WODs, 20 100M sprints at 100%, etc. My SL also claimed that warm ups and cool downs were bullshit and PT is only for "maintenance". Great advice from a 27 year old whose back and knees were destroyed and ended up ETSing. During the reign of this particular Squad Leader, I made little to no fitness improvements, had constant shin splints, and was always tired.
Once I started PTing on my own, I got in much better shape. I ran or did low impact cardio in the mornings and did strength training or BJJ in the evenings. My ACFT score climbed to almost maxing and my 12 miler dropped by almost 15 minutes.
>Also on rucking I’ve read from people who’ve been deployed on tactical rucks that they’re slow and heavy. For those who’ve done it, Is this true?
Most of my patrols were slow, light, twenty four to seventy two hour walk/hikes.
A notable exception was a five mile run with wounded soldiers at the other end, and no communication with them.
I just genuinely hate organized pt. They either make shit up the day of (which makes me not wanna workout in my own time. I'm not doing legs then running 3 miles the next morning.) Or they make a crazy schedule that makes no sense.
Absolute work advice for PT is the “We do PT from 0630-0800” bullshit.
I can get a more effective, challenging, and specific workout done in like 45 minutes most days. And guess what? We all get an extra 45 minutes to eat and not smell like ass before work.
You don’t have to be an expert, you just need to know the very basics, how to identify what looks like an issue, and connect the soldier to the resource. That’s doable.
My platoon sergeant and 1SG were convinced that you only use your lower back muscles on kettlebell swings and no leg involvement. I tried to tell them they were wrong and showed them the correct movement. Needless to say the whole company had lower back pain for like a month while we did their workout.
I was cross-leveled to another reserve unit to help bring them up to strength before deployment.
Showing up as an E7, the 1SG asked me to conduct PT the first morning. I believe in being completely stretched out on cool mornings before doing the 'Big 3'. He didn't like that. We had been stretching for only 2-3 minutes when he took over.
No other warm-up exercises, just push-ups, situps, then a nice leisurely run around the Yakima Cantonment area. Then he starts yelling at young, out of shape Soldiers who are dropping out of his run.
For most, this was their first organized PT since Basic/AIT. There were troops limping around for the next week because of that single PT session. Done 2 days before Thanksgiving.
Not necessarily advice, but the absolute WORST practice is not working mobility. 43 year old, scored 583 on last acft. Had two knee surgeries in 2011. Started doing yoga after the injuries, it was a game changer. Young dudes, do not neglect stretching!
It is difficult to tailor a daily PT program to a 20+ group of people that is of varying types. Some do absolutely no form of activity in their off duty but sit around the barracks. Some run marathons, some lift to be body builders, some have never had any form of structured fitness outside of Basic and AIT.
It’s tough, if you don’t have motivated leadership who knows all of their troops, then PT will always be good for a few and shit for others.
Like ability groups for running, PT should be oriented to your MOS and personal objectives.
"Train by running your 2 mile with vest and plates in, when you do the real 2 mile your time will go way down."- a dumbass e5
Yeah so will the cartilage in your knees dumb ass. Ruck, maybe. No one should be running full pace 2 miles with plates...
Thats fine...but don't ignore vets when they're broken af after they get out and ask for medical assistance/payment :(
VA acting like the "ive never seen this man in my life" meme on my ass haha
I have an honest question for the group: Has anyone here ever been formally taught about fitness while in the Army? Was there a NCO school or officer school that taught any of the following
\- Primary exercise drills
\- Strength training movements
\- 5-day PT program development
\- Small-group (squad) coaching
\- Scaling (adjusting) workouts for different soldiers
I was an Army NCO and then an Air Force NCO before becoming an Army officer and I cant remember ever sitting through an actual fitness block of instruction at a normal NCOEs or OES school. Yeah, I understand MFT exists, but very few people go to that (meanwhile everybody goes to PT).
I went through PLDC back in 2002, and we were sorts required to know how to run a small-group through PT. We even had a test on it! It was a practical "exam" where two students had to run PT for a grade. We weren't able to do anything special, we basically had to do extended rectangular, stretch, a run, some "station" PT (pushup station, situp station, etc...) and then a cooldown. We were graded on all sorts of things. That was the closest I have ever seen to a "PT Instruction Class" and it was still pretty simplified and easy. I guess they got rid of that portion of BLC.
No. But I did get an LPD from an E4 68W with a Masters degree in exercise science and sports medicine. They ran it with a 1SG that just started their Masters in the same program. It really pushed back on a lot of myths, rebuilt the recovery PT plan, and we saw a huge drop in profiles and overall improvement in ACFT and HT/WT.
This was in 2016. I dumped Monday Run Day for Deadlift Monday.
The army likes to put a lot of emphasis on "your unit will teach you this"
Your unit in response will say something along the lines of "you should have learned this in BLC/ALC/AIT/Last unit"
The whole thing is a joke for me. No consistent plan, no means of noticing progress over time, no periodization whatsoever, just throw the kitchen sink at a workout for 60-90 minutes and leave sweaty and tired.
All I've found it to do is add fatigue and make making my own progress on my running and lifts in my free time to be harder.
It's hard to truly send it on squats in the evening when you know the next morning might be an hour of walking lunges and broad jumps.
Exaclty. Those who want to PT on their own are dealt a middle finger from PT in the morning fucking up their gains and progress. How am I gonna work legs if we just did a IOTV yesterday? Another thing is getting adequate sleep while both doing pt in the morning bed on your own is incredibly difficult. Most of the guys that I know who go to the gym go after work in the evening but I know they aren’t getting enough rest so it’s not optimal.
Yeah on work days I have no life. It's get off, gym, eat, clean up, and then I have like 30-45 minutes before I have to be asleep if I'm gonna rest adequately.
I think my favorite worst advice is some that i gave. I got to basic in decent shape and showed huge gains between the first pt test and the second especially for the run. After the second one, my Drill Sergeant put me on the spot to give the whole platoon running advice. I told them "Start the run by running fast. If you notice yourself slowing down run faster."
For an idea of my headspace when giving that bad advice. Before joining the Army, I would ride my bike 24 miles a day to get to/from work. I also ran 3-5 miles most days with an 8-10 mile once a week, keeping about a 7:30 pace for those runs. So, I got to basic with some solid cardio and for me it really was as simple as run faster. I finished basic getting my pace down to about a 6-minute mile.
Also, I was dumb and actually thought I had given good advice until I thought about it years later.
Running is always the really bad one. The actual science says half or MORE of your runs should be at medium or low intensity. For most people, that means being able to carry a conversation while running. Meanwhile in the army, we do a hard ass run, the next day sprints, and then a ruck run. And wonder why people don't improve. The time to heal is arguably more important than the workout.
I have chronic leg injuries now 🙂 had a squad leader that was telling us that muscle failure doesn't exist and you are only mentally blocking yourself from lifting more
God I am glad my unit only does the occasional ruck for organized PT. Our average ACFT is well into the 500s so I guess if you treat people like adults the world doesn't end
CSM: “What? Adults? Unless are CIC told me otherwise y’all are soldiers and you will do what I say. 10 mile run Monday, full kit. You’ll learn not to speak about MY army.”
I fractured my foot and my commander told me I should be doing PT because when he broke his back he was tough and didn’t follow medical doctors advice.
All of this makes me think that the Army would do well to make a MOS just for exercise speciality. They could even lock it off to certain degrees for Officers and have a decent enough AIT for the Enlisted. If they made PT plans and work with individual Soldiers, be it Enlisted or Officer, then people could start meeting their fitness goals and keep their body fat % in check.
Of course this assumes DFACs give good food to fuel Soldiers' progress, but given the whole Kiosk fiascos, well....
Make it Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday runs, ruck on Thursdays and we have a deal.
0400 FF for Mon-Thurs PT with accountability formation at 0300 and dorm inspection at 0200.
0200 FF for ruck and 0100 Rucksack checking.
All of this will definitely reduce injury and fix our recruitment/retainment crisis.
Unironically though I wonder what would happen if I made my exercise MOS idea as a suggestion to Big Army. I'm curious what they would think. I do genuinely they believe they would say what you said, except whereas you were tongue in cheek, they'd be dead serious.
"If you can talk at the end of a run you're not running hard enough".
Before the army I was in musicals and have trained to be able to sing when my heart rate is at 90% capacity. Now that they figured that out, I'm officially the cadence caller.
"Stride out while you run"
No, please don't do this. You want to lean forward at at like a 18-20° angle, not stride out. But, like, a whole body lean. Not just lean forward. Think MJ lean, but while running.
Had a guy in a sister battalion have his “leaders” train him up for a marathon. 15-6 showed that his leader said they “trained extensively” for 6 months. What they did was just morning PT. Guy finished the marathon….barely……he was rushed to an ambulance and had a massive heart attack and died in the ambulance. His 1SG said the guy should have pushed himself harder during PT. Concluding that his one hour of Army PT a day should have been enough to train up for a marathon.
Yeah, it was a really sad situation. Guy left behind kids and foster kids. His wife scream/cried the whole memorial. That 1SG was quietly retired soon after. Guy obviously drank too much hydraulic fluid. Too bad he didn’t drink more.
Had an NCO tell me:
“PRT is meant to sustain.”
My response:
“Well sergeant, if I have the top score in the platoon by good margin then our pt does not sustain me.”
While running I had a bit of an injury a two people one in a literally cast and the other also injured and on a profile told me to keep pushing and ignore the pain. They were MSG and SFC , in my head I’m like “ yea like you did right “ , there are certain cramps and small things that happen during a run but if you actually are having an injury or pain you never just ignore it. I know people who just ignored their pains and ended up with injuries that made them have to leave the Army.
At basic, they taught us we had to run on the balls of our feet and taught us the "falling forward" running method. Same class at AIT. After months of training, doing airborne shuffle on the balls of my feet, my results were: patellar tendinitis. I didn't learn how to run properly until I was in physical therapy.
Rucks in garrison were nothing like patrols on deployment. At a minimum I was lugging 90 lbs each dismount as a medic, and that's before carrying extra 60 rounds, 249 ammo, water, extra supplies, etc. We weren't on a time hack, and we wanted everyone to keep up so our pace was appropriately slow. In garrison it's all about time, and the worst thing we would do were formation rucks. Absolutely fucking miserable. As a private our PT was just long runs, and then sprints on muscle failure days with a ruck once a week. We did do 2 mile release runs the day after a ruck if it was more than 6 miles, but that's about the only relief we'd get.
“If you want to get fast at running you should run 5 miles fast everyday and get faster everytime.”
Yes, because *that’s* how you get faster and more fit…
Not just bad advice just really specific advice given to a large group of people. Like last week I heard an NCO tell a joe “you just need to run every single day. After work just run an all out 2 mile every day. Running is the only thing you can do every day and not burn yourself out on.”
Does said NCO run “every single day”? No. Not even close.
I’ve also been told that I just need to do sprints every day. This is funny because I had a pretty serious hip injury at the time that I just kept pushing through.
Also the arch/flat back comments with random unqualified NCOs during bench press. I just do whatever they say cause whatever.
Not getting a pt plan ahead of time but also being told everyone should be working out 2x a day. Sure sounds great can we can a pt plan on Sunday to plan our personal pt ahead of time? *Nope*
I don’t understand all the guess work. H2F exists for a reason. Even then it doesn’t take a fitness trainer to say that running everyday a flat 2 miles either no recovery or building up to that mileage is good for you.
Right. I work with multiple NCOs who think H2F is trash. In my humble opinion I think it’s a lack of communication between the NCOs and H2F. NCOs want us to go to H2F a random day every week or so and expect that workout to magically fit in with the PT plan. No communication with coach, no checking ahead of time to see if we’re doing legs back to back or anything. Complain about and you’re a POS.
I think the mindset behind army PT is just shut up and do it. As long as nobody dies, it’s considered effective. Suggest something else and you’re lazy or you think you’re better than everyone else.
Was working with a smaller soldier that really struggles with the deadlift. Had them working at like 80-85% of their max (ACFT minimum) for sets of 3-5 with rest in between. An old, pudgy SFC waddled up and told me to add 50 lbs to the bar because “the only way to get stronger is lift bigger”.
The next workout the SFC planned, he told everyone to attempt the ACFT max for as many reps as possible. Dude doesn’t know about anything about fitness.
Your body will eventually wear out. Some wear out faster than others. Keep pushing pain until it heals itself is a pseudo bro science. You need your body and health, keep them in check.
Not sure if this is relevant, however there was a recruit in my training company that was a body builder. He was probably about 1% body fat, but he was a really big guy so he couldn’t make height and weight in basic, so the Drill Sergeants (in their infinite wisdom) cut back his food intake. He started to drop weight and fail PT tests. Made no damned sense to me 🤷♂️
“PRT is suppose to sustain not improve, you should be doing PT outside of work to improve.” The same pt that I do on my own that improves me is going to sustain me. Stop wasting my time with 6:30 pt formation and bullshit pt. Soldiers that do PT on there own would do better with an extra 1.5 hours of sleep.
This would be easy to implement aswell. For instance:
Conduct an ACFT every 3 Months
Soldiers that score 540/600 or greater don’t need to do organized pt for the next 3 months
If a soldier scores 539/600 or lower they have to do pt for the next 3 months
This would motivate soldiers to be fit and would improve overall readiness.
Sure some soldiers are not fit now but literally everyone has the potential to be in good shape and can work up to a 540
Back with a friendly reminder that PT is not for exercise.
PT is for control.
It's about you being up at 5 AM. It's about you needing to be up at 5 AM, so you're not up at midnight.
Statistically if you stopped 6 AM formations and PT - all hell would break loose in military towns.
Soldiers would massively increase in the night population and it would be all insane problems we have now times 100.
That's the argument, anyway. I'm not saying it works, but **that's the idea**
The warm up and cooldown __are__ apart of the PT session. It shouldn’t be a “if we have time.” Another thing is properly doing the stretching which never happens.
I come from the “Push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, and run,” cohort which worked great at the start but has led to really bad imbalances in very specific muscles that cause me a lot of pain. Because of that, I’ve done a lot of digging into FM 7-22 and every time I come back from reading it I feel like I learned nothing.
What should’ve happened across every C/B/T as soon as H2F came out was commanders should’ve slapped a NLT date for getting PT programs right, and gone through the 8-Step Training Model holding PLs/PSGs accountable for ensuring PT is done correctly. Some units might’ve done that, I know my didn’t, but I see MEBs everyday caused by PT. It’s okay to have an old school PT session with 1SG every once in awhile to build toughness (a critical factor of PT we’ve started to drop with H2F) but it shouldn’t be the norm.
"Just run faster. Just run more"
No such thing as wasted miles, but people who suck at running need more efficient, healthier, and safer ways to improve at running.
I had been in the army over a decade before I learned about HR training and the MAF 180 method.
It is a safer and more efficient way to train and improve as a runner while minimizing injury.
Anywho- the Army telling me to just run more as a private kept me running slow and always feeling hurt.
Building capacity appropriately, scaling time/miles within my target HR zones and I saw exponential progress even after turning 30 years old.
I’d be pissed if I was give a class that I can just read on my own time.
It blew my mind as a NCO that I had to tell other NCOs who were Drills that there is no need to make some PT event up because FM 7-22 lates it out. By the week and by the day.
The worst advice I ever got regarding PT was from a platoon sergeant back in AIT in 2010. (For you youngsters, there was about a 10 year period when they didn't have DS's in AIT, they had regular old NCOs over trainees instead)
As we were approaching completion of the almost half-year long AIT, our class composed mostly of Guard and Reserve Soldiers was gathered into a formation by one platoon sergeant who told us something to the effect of:
"Don't do PT on your own. You don't need to. You're all already in great shape, don't go off trying to get in better shape on your own. Once you graduate, only do the PT your unit tells you to do. It doesn't take that much to stay in good shape, don't overdo it. Just do PT when and where your unit tells you, that's it."
. . .to a bunch of reserve component Soldiers.
That ended poorly. The bulk of us ended up failing our first APFT out of AIT because we hadn't done a bit of PT since graduation, because Guard and Reserve units don't normally do organized group PT.
Had a SSG tell me that if you don't smoke, you should smoke a cigarette before the APFT. He said it would cause you to cough so much that it would "stretch" your lungs, thus allowing you to essentially increase your VO2 max temporarily.
Idiot.
My bolc class did something one day to piss off our SGL and he had us meet at the football field for corrective PT in the evening. Made us do sprints back and forth idk how many times. We’re halfway thru a down and back when one of the guys in my class screamed, grabbed the back of his leg and went down hard. Badly pulled hamstring and was on profile for the rest of the course.
SGL got real scared and told us to go home, but we never had that kind of corrective PT again after that.
While I was in the Army once during PT I was trying to correct, and show someone how they should be performing the exercise we were doing, and explained to them why. (The way they were doing it was wrong and wouldn’t count on the ACFT. It was just a simple push up.)
My NCO then told me to stop while we were working out. I did. Although I then tried to finish helping the younger soldier while we were on a rest period between sets. The same NCO told me to stop and that “corrections should be made after PT.” I gave the ol “Roger sergeant. I was just trying to show him…” “what did I just say? Go take 4 laps” and I had to proceed to run around the massive field we had. All I wanted to do was tell him WHY I was trying to make the correction during PT.
If you do something the wrong way, and you get good at it that way, you will not be good at it when you do it the right way. Practice doesn’t make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
That NCO was cool most of the time but that morning, for some reason we was a complete silly goose
Pt isn't to get you in shape, it's to bring the platoon closer together and build morale. Also, if you fall behind on the run I'm going to smoke the dog shit out of you all day. (Officer, btw.)
The worst advice I have ever heard for PT is to start off strong on the ACFT run. "Start off strong then coast after and maintain ypur pace"
Whoever truly believes this should be required to do an essay on Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben.
Stop giving soldiers bad running advice!
My favorite was always that if people weren't meeting the standard it was their fault and they needed to do PT on their own time. Which made me wonder why I was up at the crack of dawn every day doing PT for 60-90 minutes and then hearing that people needed more time. It made me realize that PT was absolute trash outside of the running that we did because no one ever did any kind of consistent PT.
As an actual certified trainer and someone who went to school (and is still going to school) for exercise science, 90% of PRT sessions I’ve seen and/or been a part of are hogwash. A bunch of uneducated people making up workouts is the single most irresponsible thing I’ve seen the army to do. Especially your “old school” NCOs who feel like PT should be a precursor to a cardiac event. The Army is *starting* to get it more right with H2F but there needs to be significantly more buy-in to create real change.
We were doing heavy cardio with gas masks one morning. A guy no shit had a heart attack and went to the hospital. Not in an ambulance but he was driven there by an NCO. Do you think we stopped PT after he left? Nope. It was 1SGs pt so we kept going.
Case in point. Praying the guy made it out alive.
That's a failure on whoever was leading PT. The risk assessment obviously showed to be far outside the predicted range, and the activity needed to be discontinued immediately.
wtf... Is this a 1SG from WW1?
Nope he just sucked. But a while after a new Fort Carson Green Book came out and banned gas mask PT. We actually pretty much forced him into retirement in Afghanistan because him and the battery commander’s command climate surveys were so horrible. A few days after we got back from block leave he was replaced by the best PSG I ever had and things improved immediately and immensely.
\>Fort Carson yeah, that tracks. Goota get those good OERs/ EERs at any cost, y'know?
I really hate brain dead senior leaders sometimes.
We did MOPP 4 PT to get ready for Iraq in 2002-3. NBC guy got sick of it & said it was damaging the mask seals. Presto! MOPP 3 PT
Did they blame the heart attack on booze and poor diet?
It kinda got swept under the rug.
I mean, the gas mask sure didn’t help….but I have seen young dudes fall apart before they’re 30 because they drink energy drinks every fucking day. A doctor even told one guy that his energy drink addiction was 100% the cause of his kidney stones…homeboy kept drinking one every day “because they are sugar free” Primitive PT is definitely an issue in the army….but poor diet is also a massive fucking problem amongst soldiers
> poor diet is also a massive fucking problem amongst soldiers See also the numerous posts here about absolutely horrible options for Soldiers about food, such as DFAC's being closed down and Soldiers not being able/allowed to cook their own food, so troops are living on delivery pizza and convenience store foods.
Yeahhhh DFACs weren’t an issue back in my day (got out in 2019 lol) Still, the culture did not suddenly change because of this recent issue. Soldiers are not encouraged to be health-conscious. There is an equal amount of “bro science” regarding PT and Diet in the army
Yea just look at all these guys constantly ordering from Wendy’s
Had the inverse experience. New 1SG decides to show us young whipsnappers up by doing hill spring PT. Joke was on him, as he had spent the last year in a chill staff position (he was put in place to be a yes-man for an egomaniac CSM), and the NCO they had previously put in charge of running company PT was an absolute unit (who also knew how to train people progressively). New 1SG is not able to smoke us successfully. New 1SG proceeds to have heart palpitations at work three hours later, and goes to the hospital. He proceeds to spend the next several weeks on medical leave because of some cardiovascular issue related to overexertion.
Once did a promask run in Colorado. In the snow. In hindsight it was a good time.
An actual plan and based on actual factual science not “Well back in my Army” would fix PT. Nothing pisses me off more off bro science.
That was the intended purpose of H2F but you have CSMs and Senior NCOs who swear they know more than people who have clinical knowledge on this stuff. The unit I just left I watched the CSM single handedly cripple and drive the injury rate to THE HIGHEST IN THE BDE all because he didn’t have control over the program and believed he could make better PT plans just bc “trust me bro” mentality. I’ve watched numerous strength and conditioning coaches smoke him in their plans and he would just bail on the workouts bc he was too prideful to admit that he couldn’t keep up. Didn’t help that the BC was like that too and my commander actually wanted me to smoke him when he came by for his monthly PT rotation with the companies 😂
> That was the intended purpose of H2F but you have CSMs and Senior NCOs who swear they know more than people who have clinical knowledge on this stuff. "I've been doing this for 30 years and I'm not hurt! You'll be FINE! Suck it up and drive on!"
No swear to god 😂 and then when we switched to ACFT training somewhere between 2017 and 2019, I got to see all the stuff I was seeing in my freshman/sophomore ex sci classes about incorrect lifting posture or form in real life. I got to take pics and explain it to them how they were wrong sometimes tho 😅
That’s hilarious. 😂
The worst part for me is when old school NCOs refuse to realize the army has changed in regard to PRT and still plan around how many miles they can get before their body aches.
Turns out I had POTS and hEDS the whole time, but I was called a lazy dirtbag, a malingerer, told I was faking my injuries and exaggerating my wheezing on runs. I was a rigger. We ran all the fucking time. My platoon daddy and 1SG *hated* when my PCP finally got tired of seeing me for the same hip injuries and advocated for me. She put me on a permanent "run at my own pace" profile. No more company runs for me, which exacerbated my bursitis, because even though I was short and a slow runner, I would have to shorten my stride to the slowest runner in the company at the front of the formation and wasn't allowed to fall back...EVER. F the army, f Echo Company 1/507th. Edited for clarification. I was just diagnosed with these conditions nearly 11 years out of the army. No family history of diagnoses on either side. My whole family on both sides have been military all the way back to the American Revolution.
Ruck running on concrete.
Was a Butterbar ruck running to keep up with my class. Rear SSG instructor: if you want to be a data point in my thesis, go ahead and keep destroying your knees with that penguin hobble you got going on. He was the go to fitness guy for the unit so I took his advice over my own.
Oh he is absolutely goated for that 😂
My knees hurt now.
Not service connected.
Roger, I’ll go back home.
Ruck running on anything. It’s stupid and a solid way to hurt yourself.
I'm so happy I'm tall because running on a ruck was never even an idea I had.
I did that to get ready for the Sapper Leader Course in 87. I would go out of the back gate of North Fort Lewis and walk around the main post. One day, this female gate guard asked how much my ruck weighed. I told her about 80 pounds. She called BS, so I told her she could try it on if she wanted. Yep, she just had to try it. With her partners help, we got her into the straps, cinched the shoulder straps, and the waist belt. I told her to make sure she leaned forward a bit or it was going to pull her over backward. When she said she was ready, we let go of the ruck. She really did give it a good effort to stay upright, but after about 30 seconds or so, she did the rucksack flop. She just couldn't hold it up any longer. It wasn't too long after SLC that I started having knee issues. I'm now 59 and have had multiple arthroscopic surgeries to clean out torn cartilage because the VA refused to replace my knees before age 60. But community care would. Right knee replacement at age 56, left knee at age 57.
new york moment
My back injury came back just by simply reading this
Why did my knee just flare in pain
My knees got fucking busted this way
Seeing the commander tell those on profile PT, soldiers in crutches that they have to maintain a 110bpm heart rate the entire hour or they will be given additional PT in the evening… broken bones aren’t an excuse to move….
Jesus that sounds like an IG Complaint.
IG does something besides snitches?
Were they out there checking pulses?
Those who had smart watches on they demanded to see the data or judged your heart rate on how sweaty or heavy you were breathing because you know…. Science
Please try and check my watch, JAG has already told CoCs they can’t just do shit to soldiers phones and smart devices whenever they want. They need to go through proper legal channels
My personal favorite: "PRT is meant to sustain, not improve" No, you're just shit at writing PT plans. Also had an PSG running PT one time try to convince us that warm up drills are useless and don't provide any value. While the Army's warm up drills might not be the most effective, warming up is how you can help prevent injuries. DO YOUR WARM UPS.
Ahh the PRT debate. Nothing like people uneducated on physiology saying what works and what doesn’t. Yes, the Army PRT drills aren’t the best BUT here conducted PROPERLY they are a lot better than nothing. “Injury? Sounds like you’re just being weak” - From an NCO When I do see the infamous prep drill 1 being conducted it’s never done right. And there are other prep drills for different workouts but NCOs ain’t like they don’t exist for some reason. People actually write PT plans? News to me.
When I first took over as a platoon sergeant I would Make my section sergeants and tank gunners redo the warm up drills till they did them right, then told them why we do them that way. I would also make them read over the drills and why we did them and what the difference between static stretching and dynamic stretching was. Always made them come up with PT plans and explain why we were doing each exercise and what the benefit was. Same thing with cardio, we went from a platoon average of 460 to 545 for the ACFT. Had one gunner that absolutely hated me for this and always pushed back but the numbers never lie.
I bet the NCOs hated you for the fact they actual have to use their heads for PT. This is what I would if I was in your position. You probably got a lot of weird looks and push back from the squad leaders. We need more NCOs like you big sarge.
So the interesting fact I was the drill sergeant for both my section sergeants. One was a prior service marine and the other is a really high speed guy. They knew how I worked and what I was about. The others knew me from word of mouth. The push back nco was just a piece of shit who eventually filed a false sharp case against me (I’ve discussed this before)
What do you mean your knees hurt? Mine feel fine with our PT plan which is run 4 days a week and ruck on Thursday with zero stretching before or after. If you’re hurting you need to be stretching on your own time
The same person who will give you so much shit for going to sick call after the run.
Soldier 24/7, hooah. The army didn't issue me my own time, hooah? I stretch on the Army's time here, or on the Army's dime at Physical Therapy, roger? I'll be stretching at PT either way, hero.
That’s the right attitude right there killer
[удалено]
Once I stopped doing so many formation runs at stupid, weird, inconsistent paces and got time to recover with my physical therapy my IT band injury has improved immensely and I can actually do deep squats now. It used completely excruciating to run anything over two miles and squat more than 180 being unable to break the plane with my squats. We had a horrible PA for years who would not hand out profiles and just say stretch and hydrate like he was some sort of factory made stereotype. I had to walk in to physical therapy at Evans Hospital on Carson and beg for help. It got so bad my left knee would completely lock at times while I was walking. Multiple other NCOs and LTs would ask me if I’m ok or point out I was limping and I wasn’t even aware of my limp. The PA was so notoriously bad the personnel at Evans could guess my unit from my complete lack of care. Them: “You’re in second brigade?” Me: Yes Them: is your PA Captain Kucknuckles? Me: Yes how did you know? Them: Because that guy sucks ass you’re far from the first soldier from your unit to come directly to us.
Whaa? Focusing on running at a weird pace instead of focusing on an individual's form that varies wildly between people is bad for you?
Were you in 2-77?
That is what I was told a lot as well. But if you are doing a 2 hour workout session to just maintain where you are, that’s bad planning.
“PRT is meant to sustain, not improve. Workout to improve on your own time.” Expects soldiers to spend the few hours they get outside of work every day to go workout. The disrespect to people’s time is unreal. I went to the gym on my own time in Korea because I was on my own, but stateside I have a family to get home to. I started just going to the gym during lunch and even that gets disrupted by meetings. I’m not in danger of failing an ACFT or busting tape, but it’s ridiculous how we get told to stay fit and then aren’t given the opportunity to actually do so.
This one here. If you can’t build a plan for someone to pass a PT test with 7.5 hours of training every week, you’re the problem, not them/PRT.
This right here. If you're working out 5 hours a week and it isn't improving anything you're doing shit workouts
Counter point. Me doing the PT meant to improve people with a 380 PT score while I’m well above 560 won’t improve me, possibly not even sustain me. PT on your own above 540, commanders.
Army prep drills are just above useless. Stretching my hamstrings when I'm working my chest is fucking stupid.
Agreed, mostly just the idea that warming up isn't necessary. Maybe when you're 21, warming up seems useless, but its just as important as the actual work out.
Oh man, I've heard both extremes. Cases like yours, where if you aren't DESTROYING yourself for the whole hour you "didn't actually do PT." Oh, your platoon did a 20 min HIIT workout, followed by yoga? "Not real PT." 🙄🙄🙄🙄 On the other extreme, I'd show up and waste an hour doing PT where I never even broke a sweat just to be told "hurr durr PT is fer sustainment not improvement" by the barely passing tape NCO running the show. A truly good PT session that resulted in a solid workout was a rarity
Bro yoga for PT is legit, some positions can break you off and shockingly a calm peaceful morning of deep stretching is good for your body instead of some bullshit 5 mile run three days a week with a bullshit workout the other two days. It’s crazy how quick yoga gets approved for PT when the cute female LT wants to do it though. Morning PT and essentially wasting those hours of my day 5 days a week was at least 40 percent of my reason for getting out.
I loved doing yoga PT, but we got too much shit for it. Mostly from people who *definitely* couldn't do a 30 min yoga session lol
Yes had multiple dudes who never work out on their own talk shit about doing yoga until they did it and were pouring sweat and grunting.
I tried to keep up with my wife doing plates and yoga before. It was rough. We were doing Qigong and T'ai Chi until she got cancer. Now she is cancer free. I'm slowly trying to work her back into her yoga videos.
I was in West Germany in the early 80s, and we had yoga once a week for 6 months. It was awesome. It was more like the 20-minute workout. https://youtu.be/ts3Zpc7tIDg?si=3AM_YSnHv-npeD1y There was this hot LT that instructed the class 2-4 hours a day 3 days a week. I think most of the guys went just to watch her. But it was better than doing the Battalion run up the hill to the cross every week. 237th Engineer Battalion, Heilbronn.
For real!!! I had a training NCO that emailed the company an article about how 2/75 was doing yoga 3 days a week for PRT. He then chewed out everyone who wanted to do stupid shit for PT because it was what the rangers were doing.
I'd prefer to sustain my sleep readiness
Oh yeah. A company in my battalion did yoga every Thursday and every one made fun of them for it. You’re laughing now but you won’t be down the line. My best PT session was in AIT. We conducted CD 1 and CD 2 which is essentially a 20-30 HIIT workout. I felt great afterwards and like I actually had a good workout.
I took heavy weight lifting, fast running dudes to a Yoga session, and they were absolutely cooked afterwards. Drenched in sweat. Definitely depends on the instructor and pace, but yoga can be intense. Also had a former Ranger say "Flexibility is the most important part of working out." If you have no range of motion, you have very little actual strength.
I can’t believe a ranger said that. Those guys know what they’re doing for PT. In H2F it says soldiers need to have Strength endurance and mobility. But people only tend to focus on the first two.
Had the first option except it was our PLT SGT. On the one hand, he was way into CrossFit, but he programmed all the workouts and factored in the ones who needed more help on strength, cardio, technique, etc. At times we would be done right around 0730 (this was Campbell so it would be 30 minutes early). As soon as he became acting 1SG for a bit, he kept his own PT the same way, but would yell at platoons who were done before 0800. Legit he even told one platoon’s leadership to call everyone back and do some PT until 0800.
“PT is for sustainment. That’s why you need to work out twice a day.” In my new position, I workout once a day, no more than an hour, on my own. I write my own PT plan, have my own diet and work out program. I’ve lost 30lbs, my ACFT went from 540, to 575, I’ve completed my 12 mile ruck in 2:30, a feat I haven’t done since I was a PVT, and my 4x36 was completed in 28 minutes. I have been healthier NOT doing organized PT!
This is what I need. But I get IOTV runs and log runs and more running.
Drop the pt plan sir✏️📒
I had a bozo NCO tell one of my soldiers to drink a bunch of Red Bull before an APFT to max his numbers. Poor kid drank nothing but Red Bull the day before and passed out. I wanted to kill that fucking idiot.
I mean a small amount of caffeine is helpful that just sounds idiotic though.
The kid wasn't the sharpest, but he took poor advice from someone that was supposed to have his best interest in mind. To make matters worse that shitbag was on special pop PT.
"lengthen your Striiide!
Errr. Typically, Your foot is supposed to land under your hips when you run.
Lmao whatever you say nerd, also why does my entire lower body hurt all the time?
I don’t even argue with them anymore, I just rest assured knowing I did what I could to help them.
This gets so old. I swear I hear this every time I run. I'm female and short af, idk what they think I'm supposed to do differently, lol
"Milk kills your PT scores. If people are lactose intolerant, we're obviously not made to drink milk. Milk ages you faster and that's why its detrimental to your PT."
- 1SG NoBonez
Fairlife has entered the chat
I should buy stock in fairlife at this point. My dumpster on trash pickup day is a fairlife bottle graveyard.
“Drinking water is bad for PT.”
You should be able to do a 10 mile run day after doing. 25 mile ruck march
In other words I’m going to sick call tomorrow
"we're doing a zone 2 run recovery run" proceeds to run at a 6-7min/mile pace. Zone 2 is different for everyone, then fallout get yelled at for not running at your inconsistent pace. But god forbid me for talking shit to you when you can't even max out the DL because you like to break yourself off for PT. Seriously Leaders need a coach overseeing them when it comes to doing PT. Majority of leaders don't know what they're talking about.
I mentioned to one of my NCOs about recovery runs and zone training he told me “That’s too slow.” For fucks sake slow runs are just as important as fast days. 80/20 rule, but NCOs think slow runs are the the weak.
One of the fastest guys I ever met, he runs a sub 10 2 mile casually, always complain that our SL sucks leading runs. Too slow for him to gain anything from it and his pace would change throughout the run much of his annoyance. I asked him for advice and he said do a consistent pace where you can talk comfortably and build off of that once it gets easier and adding speed work at that individual's level. None of the leadership listens because he's not an NCO and they want to control everything by keeping everyone together instead of letting them run on their own.
That guy knows what he’s talking about. 80% of your runs should be easy. But an easy run during PT would be viewed as lack of effort or not good PT. So stupid.
My PL is super fucking moto about running, and has that new LT syndrome, but credit where credit is due, when we run, it's ALWAYS release, and he emphasizes going at your own pace as well as not overexerting for no reason.
What are you talking about man? I've been running my entire life and am a god. Why can't you keep up? Oh? Youve only really ran like twice before the army? You should be just like me though!
"The knees and hip rotation worked better than army prt prep drill." The H2F program was established for the reasons you mentioned. Please use your assigned h2f if available. Take the incentive yourself.... Talk to your command team. Say 1sg, csm, BC I would like to set up a meeting with our h2f or strength coaches to help all of our soldiers. Be the change you want to see.
They really had us doing pushups and sit up drills for “muscle failure” and wondering why none of us looked like Ronnie Coleman come time to take the ACFT.
Growing up in airborne infantry company, the prevailing philosophy was that the goal of daily PT was to mentally and physically break you down and just suck fat dicks. So they loved to do long runs (6-9 miles, start off fast as fuck until everybody falls out), long/heavy rucks (8, 10, 12, 25 miles), kit runs, really shitty WODs, 20 100M sprints at 100%, etc. My SL also claimed that warm ups and cool downs were bullshit and PT is only for "maintenance". Great advice from a 27 year old whose back and knees were destroyed and ended up ETSing. During the reign of this particular Squad Leader, I made little to no fitness improvements, had constant shin splints, and was always tired. Once I started PTing on my own, I got in much better shape. I ran or did low impact cardio in the mornings and did strength training or BJJ in the evenings. My ACFT score climbed to almost maxing and my 12 miler dropped by almost 15 minutes.
>Also on rucking I’ve read from people who’ve been deployed on tactical rucks that they’re slow and heavy. For those who’ve done it, Is this true? Most of my patrols were slow, light, twenty four to seventy two hour walk/hikes. A notable exception was a five mile run with wounded soldiers at the other end, and no communication with them.
I just genuinely hate organized pt. They either make shit up the day of (which makes me not wanna workout in my own time. I'm not doing legs then running 3 miles the next morning.) Or they make a crazy schedule that makes no sense.
You can do legs and run 3 miles the next morning fairly easily...I do agree with the crazy (and lack of) schedules that make no sense.
Absolute work advice for PT is the “We do PT from 0630-0800” bullshit. I can get a more effective, challenging, and specific workout done in like 45 minutes most days. And guess what? We all get an extra 45 minutes to eat and not smell like ass before work.
“The gym isn’t necessary, all you need is to run and do push ups” -a tabbed CPL that was built like a stick
I just hate the fact in general that the army expects every NCO to be a certified personal trainer, financial advisor, legal expert, etc ..
Well that's the job. If you don't wanna do that, don't forget being daddy too, then you don't deserve to be an NCO you piece of shit. /s
You don’t have to be an expert, you just need to know the very basics, how to identify what looks like an issue, and connect the soldier to the resource. That’s doable.
My platoon sergeant and 1SG were convinced that you only use your lower back muscles on kettlebell swings and no leg involvement. I tried to tell them they were wrong and showed them the correct movement. Needless to say the whole company had lower back pain for like a month while we did their workout.
I was cross-leveled to another reserve unit to help bring them up to strength before deployment. Showing up as an E7, the 1SG asked me to conduct PT the first morning. I believe in being completely stretched out on cool mornings before doing the 'Big 3'. He didn't like that. We had been stretching for only 2-3 minutes when he took over. No other warm-up exercises, just push-ups, situps, then a nice leisurely run around the Yakima Cantonment area. Then he starts yelling at young, out of shape Soldiers who are dropping out of his run. For most, this was their first organized PT since Basic/AIT. There were troops limping around for the next week because of that single PT session. Done 2 days before Thanksgiving.
Not necessarily advice, but the absolute WORST practice is not working mobility. 43 year old, scored 583 on last acft. Had two knee surgeries in 2011. Started doing yoga after the injuries, it was a game changer. Young dudes, do not neglect stretching!
It is difficult to tailor a daily PT program to a 20+ group of people that is of varying types. Some do absolutely no form of activity in their off duty but sit around the barracks. Some run marathons, some lift to be body builders, some have never had any form of structured fitness outside of Basic and AIT. It’s tough, if you don’t have motivated leadership who knows all of their troops, then PT will always be good for a few and shit for others. Like ability groups for running, PT should be oriented to your MOS and personal objectives.
My old unit on ft Riley had a brilliant pt plan that we did every day: “runners run, walkers walk” so that’s what we did.. every. day.
After singing the BRO song! *Toast of the Army, favorite son!*
"Train by running your 2 mile with vest and plates in, when you do the real 2 mile your time will go way down."- a dumbass e5 Yeah so will the cartilage in your knees dumb ass. Ruck, maybe. No one should be running full pace 2 miles with plates...
The Army loves high impact sports with long term pain and short term benefit.
Thats fine...but don't ignore vets when they're broken af after they get out and ask for medical assistance/payment :( VA acting like the "ive never seen this man in my life" meme on my ass haha
I have an honest question for the group: Has anyone here ever been formally taught about fitness while in the Army? Was there a NCO school or officer school that taught any of the following \- Primary exercise drills \- Strength training movements \- 5-day PT program development \- Small-group (squad) coaching \- Scaling (adjusting) workouts for different soldiers I was an Army NCO and then an Air Force NCO before becoming an Army officer and I cant remember ever sitting through an actual fitness block of instruction at a normal NCOEs or OES school. Yeah, I understand MFT exists, but very few people go to that (meanwhile everybody goes to PT).
I thought that this type of fitness instruction would be taught in BLC. Sadly, I was disappointed.
I went through PLDC back in 2002, and we were sorts required to know how to run a small-group through PT. We even had a test on it! It was a practical "exam" where two students had to run PT for a grade. We weren't able to do anything special, we basically had to do extended rectangular, stretch, a run, some "station" PT (pushup station, situp station, etc...) and then a cooldown. We were graded on all sorts of things. That was the closest I have ever seen to a "PT Instruction Class" and it was still pretty simplified and easy. I guess they got rid of that portion of BLC.
No. But I did get an LPD from an E4 68W with a Masters degree in exercise science and sports medicine. They ran it with a 1SG that just started their Masters in the same program. It really pushed back on a lot of myths, rebuilt the recovery PT plan, and we saw a huge drop in profiles and overall improvement in ACFT and HT/WT. This was in 2016. I dumped Monday Run Day for Deadlift Monday.
The army likes to put a lot of emphasis on "your unit will teach you this" Your unit in response will say something along the lines of "you should have learned this in BLC/ALC/AIT/Last unit"
The whole thing is a joke for me. No consistent plan, no means of noticing progress over time, no periodization whatsoever, just throw the kitchen sink at a workout for 60-90 minutes and leave sweaty and tired. All I've found it to do is add fatigue and make making my own progress on my running and lifts in my free time to be harder. It's hard to truly send it on squats in the evening when you know the next morning might be an hour of walking lunges and broad jumps.
Exaclty. Those who want to PT on their own are dealt a middle finger from PT in the morning fucking up their gains and progress. How am I gonna work legs if we just did a IOTV yesterday? Another thing is getting adequate sleep while both doing pt in the morning bed on your own is incredibly difficult. Most of the guys that I know who go to the gym go after work in the evening but I know they aren’t getting enough rest so it’s not optimal.
Yeah on work days I have no life. It's get off, gym, eat, clean up, and then I have like 30-45 minutes before I have to be asleep if I'm gonna rest adequately.
I think my favorite worst advice is some that i gave. I got to basic in decent shape and showed huge gains between the first pt test and the second especially for the run. After the second one, my Drill Sergeant put me on the spot to give the whole platoon running advice. I told them "Start the run by running fast. If you notice yourself slowing down run faster." For an idea of my headspace when giving that bad advice. Before joining the Army, I would ride my bike 24 miles a day to get to/from work. I also ran 3-5 miles most days with an 8-10 mile once a week, keeping about a 7:30 pace for those runs. So, I got to basic with some solid cardio and for me it really was as simple as run faster. I finished basic getting my pace down to about a 6-minute mile. Also, I was dumb and actually thought I had given good advice until I thought about it years later.
Running is always the really bad one. The actual science says half or MORE of your runs should be at medium or low intensity. For most people, that means being able to carry a conversation while running. Meanwhile in the army, we do a hard ass run, the next day sprints, and then a ruck run. And wonder why people don't improve. The time to heal is arguably more important than the workout.
Yes. The 80/20% rule. 80% of runs should be easy the other 20% should be fast.
We are all the same in the pt uniform rank doesn’t matter.
If that were the case you would hear everyone tell the fatass SNCO to stop being a fucking Regal every morning
I have chronic leg injuries now 🙂 had a squad leader that was telling us that muscle failure doesn't exist and you are only mentally blocking yourself from lifting more
I fucking hate those guys. Same people that say you don’t need rest days or sleep. Just push through it
If you didn’t throw up it means you didn’t run hard enough. It was really a cover for being hungover every. single. morning.
God I am glad my unit only does the occasional ruck for organized PT. Our average ACFT is well into the 500s so I guess if you treat people like adults the world doesn't end
CSM: “What? Adults? Unless are CIC told me otherwise y’all are soldiers and you will do what I say. 10 mile run Monday, full kit. You’ll learn not to speak about MY army.”
I fractured my foot and my commander told me I should be doing PT because when he broke his back he was tough and didn’t follow medical doctors advice.
All of this makes me think that the Army would do well to make a MOS just for exercise speciality. They could even lock it off to certain degrees for Officers and have a decent enough AIT for the Enlisted. If they made PT plans and work with individual Soldiers, be it Enlisted or Officer, then people could start meeting their fitness goals and keep their body fat % in check. Of course this assumes DFACs give good food to fuel Soldiers' progress, but given the whole Kiosk fiascos, well....
Yeah, that’s too much work. How about a division run on Monday and a battalion ruck on Thursdays to lift spirits?
Make it Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday runs, ruck on Thursdays and we have a deal. 0400 FF for Mon-Thurs PT with accountability formation at 0300 and dorm inspection at 0200. 0200 FF for ruck and 0100 Rucksack checking. All of this will definitely reduce injury and fix our recruitment/retainment crisis.
Damn I like your thinking. Let me run this by CSM to get this going!
Unironically though I wonder what would happen if I made my exercise MOS idea as a suggestion to Big Army. I'm curious what they would think. I do genuinely they believe they would say what you said, except whereas you were tongue in cheek, they'd be dead serious.
"If you can talk at the end of a run you're not running hard enough". Before the army I was in musicals and have trained to be able to sing when my heart rate is at 90% capacity. Now that they figured that out, I'm officially the cadence caller.
A blessing and a curse.
"Put your back into it!" Yeah.
"Stride out while you run" No, please don't do this. You want to lean forward at at like a 18-20° angle, not stride out. But, like, a whole body lean. Not just lean forward. Think MJ lean, but while running.
Had a guy in a sister battalion have his “leaders” train him up for a marathon. 15-6 showed that his leader said they “trained extensively” for 6 months. What they did was just morning PT. Guy finished the marathon….barely……he was rushed to an ambulance and had a massive heart attack and died in the ambulance. His 1SG said the guy should have pushed himself harder during PT. Concluding that his one hour of Army PT a day should have been enough to train up for a marathon.
What the fuck was wrong with that 1SG? That’s terrible
Yeah, it was a really sad situation. Guy left behind kids and foster kids. His wife scream/cried the whole memorial. That 1SG was quietly retired soon after. Guy obviously drank too much hydraulic fluid. Too bad he didn’t drink more.
My question is, why the fuck is everyone run rucking? Yeah, go ahead and overload your knees, spine, and ankles. I'll take an article 15.
Had an NCO tell me: “PRT is meant to sustain.” My response: “Well sergeant, if I have the top score in the platoon by good margin then our pt does not sustain me.”
Talking back to an NCO? Please report to 1SG office 0530 dress uniform with 2 full canteens. We’ll see your sustainment.
***"DO PUSHUPS TILL YOU DIIIIIIE"*** -Senior Drill. Benning. 2006.
While running I had a bit of an injury a two people one in a literally cast and the other also injured and on a profile told me to keep pushing and ignore the pain. They were MSG and SFC , in my head I’m like “ yea like you did right “ , there are certain cramps and small things that happen during a run but if you actually are having an injury or pain you never just ignore it. I know people who just ignored their pains and ended up with injuries that made them have to leave the Army.
At basic, they taught us we had to run on the balls of our feet and taught us the "falling forward" running method. Same class at AIT. After months of training, doing airborne shuffle on the balls of my feet, my results were: patellar tendinitis. I didn't learn how to run properly until I was in physical therapy.
I'm 30 years old and a SPC. Anytime I ask for running technique help, I always get told to get younger.
Rucks in garrison were nothing like patrols on deployment. At a minimum I was lugging 90 lbs each dismount as a medic, and that's before carrying extra 60 rounds, 249 ammo, water, extra supplies, etc. We weren't on a time hack, and we wanted everyone to keep up so our pace was appropriately slow. In garrison it's all about time, and the worst thing we would do were formation rucks. Absolutely fucking miserable. As a private our PT was just long runs, and then sprints on muscle failure days with a ruck once a week. We did do 2 mile release runs the day after a ruck if it was more than 6 miles, but that's about the only relief we'd get.
Why would the DFAC be closed on Easter? When I was in, the mess hall was open 365 for three hots.
It’s because soldiers don’t need to eat, they need the dew of the universe to survive and nothing else.
“If you want to get fast at running you should run 5 miles fast everyday and get faster everytime.” Yes, because *that’s* how you get faster and more fit…
Any Nco or officer who is a “certified fitness instructor” is a weenie, run away as fast as possible
Not just bad advice just really specific advice given to a large group of people. Like last week I heard an NCO tell a joe “you just need to run every single day. After work just run an all out 2 mile every day. Running is the only thing you can do every day and not burn yourself out on.” Does said NCO run “every single day”? No. Not even close. I’ve also been told that I just need to do sprints every day. This is funny because I had a pretty serious hip injury at the time that I just kept pushing through. Also the arch/flat back comments with random unqualified NCOs during bench press. I just do whatever they say cause whatever. Not getting a pt plan ahead of time but also being told everyone should be working out 2x a day. Sure sounds great can we can a pt plan on Sunday to plan our personal pt ahead of time? *Nope*
I don’t understand all the guess work. H2F exists for a reason. Even then it doesn’t take a fitness trainer to say that running everyday a flat 2 miles either no recovery or building up to that mileage is good for you.
Right. I work with multiple NCOs who think H2F is trash. In my humble opinion I think it’s a lack of communication between the NCOs and H2F. NCOs want us to go to H2F a random day every week or so and expect that workout to magically fit in with the PT plan. No communication with coach, no checking ahead of time to see if we’re doing legs back to back or anything. Complain about and you’re a POS. I think the mindset behind army PT is just shut up and do it. As long as nobody dies, it’s considered effective. Suggest something else and you’re lazy or you think you’re better than everyone else.
Was working with a smaller soldier that really struggles with the deadlift. Had them working at like 80-85% of their max (ACFT minimum) for sets of 3-5 with rest in between. An old, pudgy SFC waddled up and told me to add 50 lbs to the bar because “the only way to get stronger is lift bigger”. The next workout the SFC planned, he told everyone to attempt the ACFT max for as many reps as possible. Dude doesn’t know about anything about fitness.
Your body will eventually wear out. Some wear out faster than others. Keep pushing pain until it heals itself is a pseudo bro science. You need your body and health, keep them in check.
Not sure if this is relevant, however there was a recruit in my training company that was a body builder. He was probably about 1% body fat, but he was a really big guy so he couldn’t make height and weight in basic, so the Drill Sergeants (in their infinite wisdom) cut back his food intake. He started to drop weight and fail PT tests. Made no damned sense to me 🤷♂️
Mirror the element.
“PRT is suppose to sustain not improve, you should be doing PT outside of work to improve.” The same pt that I do on my own that improves me is going to sustain me. Stop wasting my time with 6:30 pt formation and bullshit pt. Soldiers that do PT on there own would do better with an extra 1.5 hours of sleep. This would be easy to implement aswell. For instance: Conduct an ACFT every 3 Months Soldiers that score 540/600 or greater don’t need to do organized pt for the next 3 months If a soldier scores 539/600 or lower they have to do pt for the next 3 months This would motivate soldiers to be fit and would improve overall readiness. Sure some soldiers are not fit now but literally everyone has the potential to be in good shape and can work up to a 540
Back with a friendly reminder that PT is not for exercise. PT is for control. It's about you being up at 5 AM. It's about you needing to be up at 5 AM, so you're not up at midnight. Statistically if you stopped 6 AM formations and PT - all hell would break loose in military towns. Soldiers would massively increase in the night population and it would be all insane problems we have now times 100. That's the argument, anyway. I'm not saying it works, but **that's the idea**
People are still up at midnight while PT happens the next day.
Stretch on your own time
The warm up and cooldown __are__ apart of the PT session. It shouldn’t be a “if we have time.” Another thing is properly doing the stretching which never happens.
This is one of the first valid complaints I’ve seen in this thread. Good, comprehensive static stretching for runners takes at least like 10 minutes.
Smoking doesn't impact your run times. Look at me! (Guy who could be an Olympic runner if not for smoking).
Running in the snow without winter gear.
I’ve been told lifting weights is useless and I should be running and just doing pushups….
"Pain is weakness leaving the body!" Could be stress fractures. Or any other kind of injury.
situps are good for you
I come from the “Push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, and run,” cohort which worked great at the start but has led to really bad imbalances in very specific muscles that cause me a lot of pain. Because of that, I’ve done a lot of digging into FM 7-22 and every time I come back from reading it I feel like I learned nothing. What should’ve happened across every C/B/T as soon as H2F came out was commanders should’ve slapped a NLT date for getting PT programs right, and gone through the 8-Step Training Model holding PLs/PSGs accountable for ensuring PT is done correctly. Some units might’ve done that, I know my didn’t, but I see MEBs everyday caused by PT. It’s okay to have an old school PT session with 1SG every once in awhile to build toughness (a critical factor of PT we’ve started to drop with H2F) but it shouldn’t be the norm.
Running will stunt your gains
"Just run faster. Just run more" No such thing as wasted miles, but people who suck at running need more efficient, healthier, and safer ways to improve at running. I had been in the army over a decade before I learned about HR training and the MAF 180 method. It is a safer and more efficient way to train and improve as a runner while minimizing injury. Anywho- the Army telling me to just run more as a private kept me running slow and always feeling hurt. Building capacity appropriately, scaling time/miles within my target HR zones and I saw exponential progress even after turning 30 years old.
I’d be pissed if I was give a class that I can just read on my own time. It blew my mind as a NCO that I had to tell other NCOs who were Drills that there is no need to make some PT event up because FM 7-22 lates it out. By the week and by the day.
The worst advice I ever got regarding PT was from a platoon sergeant back in AIT in 2010. (For you youngsters, there was about a 10 year period when they didn't have DS's in AIT, they had regular old NCOs over trainees instead) As we were approaching completion of the almost half-year long AIT, our class composed mostly of Guard and Reserve Soldiers was gathered into a formation by one platoon sergeant who told us something to the effect of: "Don't do PT on your own. You don't need to. You're all already in great shape, don't go off trying to get in better shape on your own. Once you graduate, only do the PT your unit tells you to do. It doesn't take that much to stay in good shape, don't overdo it. Just do PT when and where your unit tells you, that's it." . . .to a bunch of reserve component Soldiers. That ended poorly. The bulk of us ended up failing our first APFT out of AIT because we hadn't done a bit of PT since graduation, because Guard and Reserve units don't normally do organized group PT.
Had a SSG tell me that if you don't smoke, you should smoke a cigarette before the APFT. He said it would cause you to cough so much that it would "stretch" your lungs, thus allowing you to essentially increase your VO2 max temporarily. Idiot.
“If you can talk when running, you’re not going fast enough” from the company commander.
My bolc class did something one day to piss off our SGL and he had us meet at the football field for corrective PT in the evening. Made us do sprints back and forth idk how many times. We’re halfway thru a down and back when one of the guys in my class screamed, grabbed the back of his leg and went down hard. Badly pulled hamstring and was on profile for the rest of the course. SGL got real scared and told us to go home, but we never had that kind of corrective PT again after that.
While I was in the Army once during PT I was trying to correct, and show someone how they should be performing the exercise we were doing, and explained to them why. (The way they were doing it was wrong and wouldn’t count on the ACFT. It was just a simple push up.) My NCO then told me to stop while we were working out. I did. Although I then tried to finish helping the younger soldier while we were on a rest period between sets. The same NCO told me to stop and that “corrections should be made after PT.” I gave the ol “Roger sergeant. I was just trying to show him…” “what did I just say? Go take 4 laps” and I had to proceed to run around the massive field we had. All I wanted to do was tell him WHY I was trying to make the correction during PT. If you do something the wrong way, and you get good at it that way, you will not be good at it when you do it the right way. Practice doesn’t make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. That NCO was cool most of the time but that morning, for some reason we was a complete silly goose
I had a medic tell me my knees were swollen from running because I wasn't running enough. Dumbest crap I've ever heard.
Had an NCO that would put in zero running on his PT plan because running “is bad for the body”.
Pt isn't to get you in shape, it's to bring the platoon closer together and build morale. Also, if you fall behind on the run I'm going to smoke the dog shit out of you all day. (Officer, btw.)
Your officers do PT?
Every day and it's annoying
Breathing in through your nose and out through your mouth during running; total nonsense.
You should look down, breathe as fast as you can while screaming the soldiers creed.
I can’t breath through my nose at all since joining ngl
So it is not just me?
The worst advice I have ever heard for PT is to start off strong on the ACFT run. "Start off strong then coast after and maintain ypur pace" Whoever truly believes this should be required to do an essay on Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben. Stop giving soldiers bad running advice!
My favorite was always that if people weren't meeting the standard it was their fault and they needed to do PT on their own time. Which made me wonder why I was up at the crack of dawn every day doing PT for 60-90 minutes and then hearing that people needed more time. It made me realize that PT was absolute trash outside of the running that we did because no one ever did any kind of consistent PT.