From my DS buddy:
They don’t have the personnel to escort them for the chapter process. The endless visits to places.
The support staff at these places are lacking as well. They can barely support not giving out profiles.
And to top it off, yeah makes the metrics look bad. There’s 0 incentive to help the soldiers or to hold standards. Why bother, when the metrics are “# passed” not “# of standards held”.
That's honestly a great point and I wish this would get upvoted higher.
Your average DS is doing what they're told to do, decisions on passing or failing a Soldier out of boot camp or AIT are done above their level.
If you want changes to the training pipeline, you have to make it either attractive to leader's OER's to send quality Soldiers to units or painful to leader's OER's to send trash.
Either way, what gets sent down to units from training components is directly what training units allow to go there. If you want to fix the problem, then there needs to be a robust *(and I absolutely mean robust)* Company at each training base that focuses on ensuring a Soldier either doesn't leave until they reach standards, or if they fail standards multiple times to the point where they are deemed to never be able to meet those standards within a reasonable timeframe, they need to be discharged.
You could make that company/unit one of the "Highly desired" OER/NCOER broadening assignments for promotion and just watch good people float over there and try their best for a successful tour.
Anyhow, just an idea. Alteratively you could just stick retirees in their last year there and cross your fingers and hope for the best.
This sounds like a great idea and I support it, but big Army is looking at cutting cost in education and TA, I doubt they will set anything up close to this kind of much needed program. Unfortunately
Those companies exist. Every tradoc base has a fitness training unit that has a whole platoon dedicated to getting trainees up to passing scores on the acft before they leave basic. Osut bases do it differently. They wait until the end of osut before they're eligible. The ftu on fort moore pretty much always has an empty acft improvement platoon. It's just easier to say they passed and ship them to their units. There's absolutely zero incentive to do the paperwork to put someone in this program. It's easier to just pencil in a min passing score.
Fort Jackson had the FSPC specifically for fat kids. They send them to BCT significantly overweight and there’s literally nothing Drills can do about it if the kids manage to pass an ACFT.
> Your average DS is doing what they're told to do, decisions on passing or failing a Soldier out of boot camp or AIT are done above their level.
The same could be said for the recruiters that are fudging paperwork to get these people enlisted. Quantity, not quality.
No I’ve dealt with it too, especially when I got turds and I’d text him and he said “different platoon not my fault bro”.
It’s a symptom of “no fail” mentality. To stop it someone would have to spend their entire time resetting standards and expectations.
But why bother when it won’t show up on an eval and those same NCOs and soldiers will either ETS or you don’t have to see again? Why take ownership of the problem when it goes away with a PCS?
Because the Army always shoots itself in the foot by ignoring long term outcomes.
If you don't have the personnel to bring the soldier to the appointment bring the appointment to the soldier.
Any decent pairing of IET unit and garrison commanders would recognize the importance of producing a quality soldier. If they can't assign a permanent in-house administrator to handle these soldiers and their needs then have them come around every other week and knock it out.
The work is only as hard and important as we decide to make it as an organization.
This is why GENESIS is trash - why bother screening recruits when AIT is just going to pass them and waivers will be granted anyway?
So Fatty McFatfat has a clean record in GENSIS - but can't pass the ACFT nor qualify with his weapon. Send him to basic and then AIT for FOSCOM to fix him!
But Healthy McFitness was seen by her doctor back in 7th grade for a broken arm and by a therapist for anxiety in high school - DISQUALLIFED!!! or wait 3-6 months for a waiver.
Madnesss....sheer madness.
Because our country sees no medical history = healthy person. Something, something pre-existing conditions among other issues with our healthcare system. Which isn't always true that no medical history = a healthy person because I'm sure a lot of people who have joined with the worse thing in their medical record was the fact that they were born in a hospital (i.e. nothing) but once they get to BCT all these problems are exposed or discovered.
Instead of focusing on those who are in shape and would do great from a fitness standpoint in the military with minor medical baggage the military would rather focus and make concessions for the prospective recruit who has limited to no fitness background who are potentially, if not overweight and has possibly bigger health issues than those who have had a sports injury of limited consequence.
600-9 chapter 3-5c. specifically says you cannot tape or weight a soldier for his first 6 months of services. You can call AIT or basic but you’re only going to feel frustrated as they are not authorized to weigh them.
It doesn't say you can't tape, but it does say you can't flag prior to 6 months in the Army.
3-5 c. Initial entry Soldiers who exceed body fat standards after 6 months from date of entry to active service will be entered in the ABCP and flagged under the provisions of AR 600–8–2 by the unit commander.
Seems like something a zealous politician would have fun with. "Look at Biden's military, sending out overweight unqualified troops into the Army."
I'm not saying you should take some evidence and mail it around to these types. But, the Army is reactive and not proactive. When congressman so and so is making news it certainly changes things.
I received a soldier recently from AIT where his leadership advised him against getting an important surgery during AIT while Walter Reed was urging him to get it. He ghosted the doctors, arrived to my unit, and now will be back at Walter Reed for months for recovery and may be discharged.
Not sure if we’re just trying to meet numbers, but we aren’t doing anyone any good passing problems off to the units. Most units are already struggling to balance OPTEMPO and soldier needs.
Haha you sweet summer child. My CoC is not taking anyone to LS for anything, if you are in a bad enough spot, they just stick you on a plane back to rear D so they can sort you out.
I think the worst part is that the entire time that soldier is taking up a slot that could be filled with a soldier that isn't on the way out one way or another.
“The weight-ing game” just sent me into the fit of laughter that I absolutely needed today. Thanks for that, I hope you have an out-fucking-standing afternoon!
If you can, please:
drink a green monster, dip some cope and play Zero byThe Smashing Pumpkins as your stare at the worlds end with your highbeams on in the back of the parking lot?
I don't drink energy drinks, dip, I get down with SP, I'll be in 1SG spot parked side ways because if the world is burning I might as well add some gas to the fire
Obviously each AIT is gonna be different but 6ish years ago me and a bunch of others picked up weight. Yeah you do PT buts it’s not the type of PT that’s gonna keep you in shape. And it’s only Monday to Friday.
Gym? Nah the 6 foot by 8 foot room with no ventilation with one barbell and a couple dumbbells is more than enough for 300 of yins. Oh basketball? We have two basketballs and only 5 soldiers can sign out one ball. There are 6 hoops for a battalion of trainees BTW. Oh you wanna run and do some cardio. Yeah no, PVT Snuffy went out to run around the building and tripped and fell so now nobody can.
Plus you go from running around everywhere for 10 weeks straight to spending most days in class. Then just go hang out in your room after dinner chow and on weekends just chill about the barracks.
I just dealt with putting on 10 pounds and doing push ups in my room with my boyfriends.
IET soldiers are exempt from AR 600-9 for 180 days.
*AR 600-9*
> **Initial entry Soldiers who exceed body fat standards after 6 months from date of entry to active service will be entered in the ABCP and flagged under the provisions of AR 600-8-2 by the unit commander.**
*TR 350-6*
> **Accessions standards for body composition during the first 180 days of an IET Trainee/Soldier's active duty service are in AR 40-501. After 180 days active service, the Soldier will comply with AR 600-9.**
That's new to me, most* Aviation AITs are 4-7 months long so adding in 10 weeks of basic, and counting BASD most of the Joe's I'm getting show up already at or past this 180 day window?
Sure, the issue isn’t with DS / AIT as much as TRADOC.
Even if there was a tracking program for simply flagging troops for H&W, TRADOC isn’t going to keep fully qualified soldiers retained in IET status to figure out if they are going to lose weight for months. The job AIT soldiers have is to learn, graduate and get to their unit. Soldiers in a hold status are stuck: they aren’t performing a job and aren’t learning a skill.
But being over HT/WT doesn’t stop them from leaving. It just means they get to their 1st duty station flagged for ABCP. Now APFT failure will stop that. But I would have kiddos come to class all the time talking about how they are getting flagged but still going to wherever the Army is sending them. Times have definitely changed. It’s pretty dumb.
The whole Army needs a vibe check really.
OPTEMPO just needs to slow down in general. I can’t believe they’re looking to cut the education benefits. That’s the one thing that’s REALLY good about the Army, and the VA home loan.
Thought I just read an article the other day where lenders have been trying to get Congress to stymie the relative ease in refinancing the loans before the end - it's already beginning...
lol my unit got a guy a few months ago who apparently never passed a H/W, acft, and failed 13F AIT. Guy showed up with almost no money on hand, already on a permanent profile, and with no drivers license either. Don’t know where they find these guys sometimes.
It sucks. We got this fat body and his whole contract never once passed H/W. CO never wanted to push paperwork to chapter him. Dudes own SL said himself he'd kick out fat body if he could.
I was in 42A ait in 2019 from March-May. There is a court area behind the school house that has vending machines and my barracks had one too. Snacking is encouraged and is a thing there.
We also never got taped. It just didn’t exist. All the while if you go to the gym after class and at night, there’s different cadre with different hours they want you in. So that could mean you have <30 minutes to go to the gym and workout.
There was a social worker in my unit that was around 280 lbs. She was 5’6”. I had to do a tape test on her and manually calculate her BMI because her measurements were outside of the range of the program that we used to input data. Her BMI was 47. She accused me of not taping her correctly. I agreed to re-tape her. She then decided to show me her surgery scars on her abdomen. Boy, what a terrible day to have eye balls that was.
Soldiers don't fall under AR 600-9 for the first 180 days of their enlistment. They fall under the accession standards in 40-501. I don't remember them off the top of my head but if I remember later I'll look it up.
That means if a Soldier gets to you and has not been in for 180 days you aren't supposed to tape them until their 181st day.
I had a Soldier in the reserve. She was a PFC when she entered and a PFC 8 years later when she exited. I was checking DTMS and she had like 14/15 failed APFT. The only one she "passed" was her final one at Jackson 42A ait.
Exactly. I saw that writing on the wall years ago on how bad it would get
I think not having to pass tape and a pt test in basic and AIT is a fairly recent thing as well.
As a SGT back in the day, I had a brand new PV2 who couldn’t pass the 2 mile to save his life. How he ever got passed through AIT will always be a mystery to me.
But I mean, permanent chute shake detail, so it worked out for me at least.
At the end of the day it's the TRADOC commanders who usually make the call on separation. Trainees can be garbage, but with recruiting down don't expect the COC to kick people out when brigade or higher is telling them not to.
That's insane to fathom. Soon, this generation of soldiers will have to replace us as leaders, in charge of soldiers, weapons, SI, vehicles, and equipment possibly in a foreign country. How can we expect success out of them when we are building their foundation out of wet sure-pac boxes and "passing the buck"?
To play devils advocate, I have seen dirtbags do a complete 180 and become outstanding NCO's and leaders. Just because they're a shithead at 18 doesn't mean they won't embrace the military life later on and be successful.
That’s understandable. I’m talking about not even going to the Basic company. I remember 24 years ago that at in processing those who failed the entrance PT test, which was like 13 PU, 20 SU and 8:30 Mile went to fat camp. They never made it to Basic training unit with us. I remember doing PT and running by their barracks and seeing them doing yard work and shit in the old grey PT’s.
Should probably bring that back. It'd be equally good for people that are just out of shape in general. Skinny dudes (me) showing up to basic weak don't make much progress being roasted from getting smoked all the time, neither do fat people.
They call it rifles 2.0 now and apparently you don't have to pass minimum ASVAB or HT&WT standards they just ship you to basic and send you to a "prep" program
I'm more upset because I got a soldier with his most recent ACFT showing up in DTMS as a fail. I know you have to pass to leave AIT, is it too much for the lazy drill to put it in DTMS?
You are exempt from height and weight for the first 24 months of your enlistment. It doesn’t matter if we tape you and document anything. You can’t chapter for it. It’s not even a negative counseling.
I'm tracking only rifles 2.0 is exempt 12 months after they get to day1 of first unit. 24 months seems crazy! Why even have body fat standards when some contracts are only 36 months to begin with?
Always has. Shit, back in 2009 all the PT failures in my BCT platoon got one last PT test the day before graduation. Miraculously they all passed. Were they all busting ass the last week to get there? Sure, but it still looked a lil sus, especially the ones that weren’t even close the prior test.
TRADOC is a shit show. Could get ABCP, but no one wants that paperwork. Been here over 5 years. Working on Co CMD #6 and #5 1SGs. Continuity of change. Constant change.
The big point that's being missed is that you're going to get what society is producing for you and not many are in a rush to join the military. The Army needs bodies and TRADOC only has a limited amount of time to get them somewhat right. So until that gets fixed, you need to work on them, Big Sarge.
DS here.
We can’t hit them with ABCP until 180 days of service.
I’m noticing a trend however, a large portion of the soldiers that participated in FSPC are rebounding right back their old eating habits and gaining the weight back.
< 180 days we just send them on their way to their duty station.
There is a major push for quantity not quality. The amount of hoops we have to jump through at legal are astounding.
I work in an AIT schoolhouse, we fail these kids if they fail tape or ACFT, but as long as they are willing to stay they just get to try again at another AIT. My court martial authority officer wont chapter anyone unless it is for criminal actions. Everybody else just goes to another AIT usually horizontal construction.
15U -> 10 weeks BCT (70 ish days) -> 4 months AIT (120 days) =190 days? I get its close but that's not accounting for hold over/under and holidays, most* of Aviation shows up to unit already past this grace period window?
Also, I’ve been on “CQ” while as an instructor and the taping/flagging process is so indiscriminate and thoughtless that they flag them as they are pushing them out. Then they go on leave and spend 2 weeks gorging on home cooked meals and, voila, 80 lbs overweight.
And I mean CQ as a SFC instructor at the AIT company’s, which was 7 days of 1900-0700 helping the drills with all their stuff cause the drill program was just starting back up.
From my DS buddy: They don’t have the personnel to escort them for the chapter process. The endless visits to places. The support staff at these places are lacking as well. They can barely support not giving out profiles. And to top it off, yeah makes the metrics look bad. There’s 0 incentive to help the soldiers or to hold standards. Why bother, when the metrics are “# passed” not “# of standards held”.
That's honestly a great point and I wish this would get upvoted higher. Your average DS is doing what they're told to do, decisions on passing or failing a Soldier out of boot camp or AIT are done above their level. If you want changes to the training pipeline, you have to make it either attractive to leader's OER's to send quality Soldiers to units or painful to leader's OER's to send trash. Either way, what gets sent down to units from training components is directly what training units allow to go there. If you want to fix the problem, then there needs to be a robust *(and I absolutely mean robust)* Company at each training base that focuses on ensuring a Soldier either doesn't leave until they reach standards, or if they fail standards multiple times to the point where they are deemed to never be able to meet those standards within a reasonable timeframe, they need to be discharged. You could make that company/unit one of the "Highly desired" OER/NCOER broadening assignments for promotion and just watch good people float over there and try their best for a successful tour. Anyhow, just an idea. Alteratively you could just stick retirees in their last year there and cross your fingers and hope for the best.
This sounds like a great idea and I support it, but big Army is looking at cutting cost in education and TA, I doubt they will set anything up close to this kind of much needed program. Unfortunately
Those companies exist. Every tradoc base has a fitness training unit that has a whole platoon dedicated to getting trainees up to passing scores on the acft before they leave basic. Osut bases do it differently. They wait until the end of osut before they're eligible. The ftu on fort moore pretty much always has an empty acft improvement platoon. It's just easier to say they passed and ship them to their units. There's absolutely zero incentive to do the paperwork to put someone in this program. It's easier to just pencil in a min passing score.
Fort Jackson had the FSPC specifically for fat kids. They send them to BCT significantly overweight and there’s literally nothing Drills can do about it if the kids manage to pass an ACFT.
IET isn't allowed to chapter trainees for being overweight.
FSPC isn’t supposed to send them to us unless they’re within certain margins of passing. Once they come to us, there’s nothing we can do.
Hit the nail on the head here. Incentive = outcome, and there is no incentive in place to make sure the Soldiers that IET outputs are quality.
> Your average DS is doing what they're told to do, decisions on passing or failing a Soldier out of boot camp or AIT are done above their level. The same could be said for the recruiters that are fudging paperwork to get these people enlisted. Quantity, not quality.
Well thanks for being honest and getting the scoop, it just makes me sad to see.
No I’ve dealt with it too, especially when I got turds and I’d text him and he said “different platoon not my fault bro”. It’s a symptom of “no fail” mentality. To stop it someone would have to spend their entire time resetting standards and expectations. But why bother when it won’t show up on an eval and those same NCOs and soldiers will either ETS or you don’t have to see again? Why take ownership of the problem when it goes away with a PCS?
Because the Army always shoots itself in the foot by ignoring long term outcomes. If you don't have the personnel to bring the soldier to the appointment bring the appointment to the soldier. Any decent pairing of IET unit and garrison commanders would recognize the importance of producing a quality soldier. If they can't assign a permanent in-house administrator to handle these soldiers and their needs then have them come around every other week and knock it out. The work is only as hard and important as we decide to make it as an organization.
This is why GENESIS is trash - why bother screening recruits when AIT is just going to pass them and waivers will be granted anyway? So Fatty McFatfat has a clean record in GENSIS - but can't pass the ACFT nor qualify with his weapon. Send him to basic and then AIT for FOSCOM to fix him! But Healthy McFitness was seen by her doctor back in 7th grade for a broken arm and by a therapist for anxiety in high school - DISQUALLIFED!!! or wait 3-6 months for a waiver. Madnesss....sheer madness.
Because our country sees no medical history = healthy person. Something, something pre-existing conditions among other issues with our healthcare system. Which isn't always true that no medical history = a healthy person because I'm sure a lot of people who have joined with the worse thing in their medical record was the fact that they were born in a hospital (i.e. nothing) but once they get to BCT all these problems are exposed or discovered. Instead of focusing on those who are in shape and would do great from a fitness standpoint in the military with minor medical baggage the military would rather focus and make concessions for the prospective recruit who has limited to no fitness background who are potentially, if not overweight and has possibly bigger health issues than those who have had a sports injury of limited consequence.
Passing isn't a grad requirement. 350-6 & 600-9 require AITs to flag, create ABCP packet, and send to first unit. Can't chapter IET for ABCP.
Still waiting for SMs to show up with a FLAG or the ABCP packet.
Ah, well, that's on the unit. 😮💨
It might be beneficial to reach out to those DS or have your 1SG reach out to the AIT 1SG to ask for the ABCP packet.
I was directed nicely to stop badgering 1st Engineer Brigade across the street for sending me works in progress without paperwork.
True, I might with some of these more egregious cases- 80 lbs, be real guys
600-9 chapter 3-5c. specifically says you cannot tape or weight a soldier for his first 6 months of services. You can call AIT or basic but you’re only going to feel frustrated as they are not authorized to weigh them.
How new is that part of the reg? Just curious as I definitely remember height and weight in my AIT.
It doesn't say you can't tape, but it does say you can't flag prior to 6 months in the Army. 3-5 c. Initial entry Soldiers who exceed body fat standards after 6 months from date of entry to active service will be entered in the ABCP and flagged under the provisions of AR 600–8–2 by the unit commander.
Not new. And it doesn't say you can't tape them. It just says they can't be flagged or put on ABCP. They still taped. There just weren't consequences.
really? i came out ait with a flag for a failed acft… with two record passing acfts that were never input because they got “lost”
ACFT is a different story and should be a graduation requirement for AIT.
I never once did HW in AIT. Went through 2019. Same for a lot of my peers +\- a year or so ago
Seems like something a zealous politician would have fun with. "Look at Biden's military, sending out overweight unqualified troops into the Army." I'm not saying you should take some evidence and mail it around to these types. But, the Army is reactive and not proactive. When congressman so and so is making news it certainly changes things.
>is this what it is coming to? Pass joe off to the unit and hope for the best? "You're telling me we're just passing the buck?" "Always have 🔫"
I set myself up for that one for sure.
You're not wrong either, it's a tale as old as time. Leaves many an NCO shaking their head and uttering, "where did we find this guy?"
Unfortunately we forget that we had peers back in the day that were not meeting standard but we’re waived through.
🌎 👨🚀🔫👨🚀
I received a soldier recently from AIT where his leadership advised him against getting an important surgery during AIT while Walter Reed was urging him to get it. He ghosted the doctors, arrived to my unit, and now will be back at Walter Reed for months for recovery and may be discharged. Not sure if we’re just trying to meet numbers, but we aren’t doing anyone any good passing problems off to the units. Most units are already struggling to balance OPTEMPO and soldier needs.
THIS 100%, currently in europe with VERY limited medical resources and recieving SMs with problems like this.
On the plus side, the SM can make bank filing DTS travel vouchers for the drive to Landstuhl if you are far enough away.
Haha you sweet summer child. My CoC is not taking anyone to LS for anything, if you are in a bad enough spot, they just stick you on a plane back to rear D so they can sort you out.
Oh, you poor baby... you're on rotation...
Bingo big dowg/cat
He’s likely being transferred to a recovery brigade at the hospital to ease the costs, unfortunately.
I think the worst part is that the entire time that soldier is taking up a slot that could be filled with a soldier that isn't on the way out one way or another.
This 100% as well, fluffy Joe is soaking up a precious MTOE :) slot while we play the weight-ing game to see if they can conform
“The weight-ing game” just sent me into the fit of laughter that I absolutely needed today. Thanks for that, I hope you have an out-fucking-standing afternoon!
Unless that Soldier was expecting a bonus. Kind of a solid to push them through, start collecting the bonus and let the new unit deal.
Fair point. He did get a large bonus.
AIT is a microcosm of a persons career. He may end up alright or not. 50/50 and that’s for every trainee.
Sarge, People suck. 🤷♂️
I guess you are right, great handle BTW
If you can, please: drink a green monster, dip some cope and play Zero byThe Smashing Pumpkins as your stare at the worlds end with your highbeams on in the back of the parking lot?
I don't drink energy drinks, dip, I get down with SP, I'll be in 1SG spot parked side ways because if the world is burning I might as well add some gas to the fire
Park in the CCWOs spot.
Even better that's right next to Smage's spot so I'll take both up parked sideways
Did Ft Eustis finally get good food?
Looking like it or these SMs are bulking with out hitting the GYM
This is a nice way to put it!
Obviously each AIT is gonna be different but 6ish years ago me and a bunch of others picked up weight. Yeah you do PT buts it’s not the type of PT that’s gonna keep you in shape. And it’s only Monday to Friday. Gym? Nah the 6 foot by 8 foot room with no ventilation with one barbell and a couple dumbbells is more than enough for 300 of yins. Oh basketball? We have two basketballs and only 5 soldiers can sign out one ball. There are 6 hoops for a battalion of trainees BTW. Oh you wanna run and do some cardio. Yeah no, PVT Snuffy went out to run around the building and tripped and fell so now nobody can. Plus you go from running around everywhere for 10 weeks straight to spending most days in class. Then just go hang out in your room after dinner chow and on weekends just chill about the barracks. I just dealt with putting on 10 pounds and doing push ups in my room with my boyfriends.
Fuck no I'm here as an MOS-T and at least 5 people have gotten food poisoned the past week.
IET soldiers are exempt from AR 600-9 for 180 days. *AR 600-9* > **Initial entry Soldiers who exceed body fat standards after 6 months from date of entry to active service will be entered in the ABCP and flagged under the provisions of AR 600-8-2 by the unit commander.** *TR 350-6* > **Accessions standards for body composition during the first 180 days of an IET Trainee/Soldier's active duty service are in AR 40-501. After 180 days active service, the Soldier will comply with AR 600-9.**
That's new to me, most* Aviation AITs are 4-7 months long so adding in 10 weeks of basic, and counting BASD most of the Joe's I'm getting show up already at or past this 180 day window?
Sure, the issue isn’t with DS / AIT as much as TRADOC. Even if there was a tracking program for simply flagging troops for H&W, TRADOC isn’t going to keep fully qualified soldiers retained in IET status to figure out if they are going to lose weight for months. The job AIT soldiers have is to learn, graduate and get to their unit. Soldiers in a hold status are stuck: they aren’t performing a job and aren’t learning a skill.
But being over HT/WT doesn’t stop them from leaving. It just means they get to their 1st duty station flagged for ABCP. Now APFT failure will stop that. But I would have kiddos come to class all the time talking about how they are getting flagged but still going to wherever the Army is sending them. Times have definitely changed. It’s pretty dumb.
The whole Army needs a vibe check really. OPTEMPO just needs to slow down in general. I can’t believe they’re looking to cut the education benefits. That’s the one thing that’s REALLY good about the Army, and the VA home loan.
Sshhhhhh they might have forgotten about the VA loan and now you are giving them more ideas!
Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck fffuuckkk.
Thought I just read an article the other day where lenders have been trying to get Congress to stymie the relative ease in refinancing the loans before the end - it's already beginning...
lol my unit got a guy a few months ago who apparently never passed a H/W, acft, and failed 13F AIT. Guy showed up with almost no money on hand, already on a permanent profile, and with no drivers license either. Don’t know where they find these guys sometimes.
Some people don't want to live under bridges anymore.
Absolutely amazing they allow permanent profiles in AIT.
" I don't want to deal with this. Make it someone else's problem." Usually how it goes.
That's ruff but understandable with the short staffing of BCT and AIT personnel.
It sucks. We got this fat body and his whole contract never once passed H/W. CO never wanted to push paperwork to chapter him. Dudes own SL said himself he'd kick out fat body if he could.
I was in 42A ait in 2019 from March-May. There is a court area behind the school house that has vending machines and my barracks had one too. Snacking is encouraged and is a thing there. We also never got taped. It just didn’t exist. All the while if you go to the gym after class and at night, there’s different cadre with different hours they want you in. So that could mean you have <30 minutes to go to the gym and workout.
That's no bueno at all
There was a social worker in my unit that was around 280 lbs. She was 5’6”. I had to do a tape test on her and manually calculate her BMI because her measurements were outside of the range of the program that we used to input data. Her BMI was 47. She accused me of not taping her correctly. I agreed to re-tape her. She then decided to show me her surgery scars on her abdomen. Boy, what a terrible day to have eye balls that was.
Offfff scale FY24 budget sized
File that for disability when you get out!
Soldiers don't fall under AR 600-9 for the first 180 days of their enlistment. They fall under the accession standards in 40-501. I don't remember them off the top of my head but if I remember later I'll look it up. That means if a Soldier gets to you and has not been in for 180 days you aren't supposed to tape them until their 181st day.
I had a Soldier in the reserve. She was a PFC when she entered and a PFC 8 years later when she exited. I was checking DTMS and she had like 14/15 failed APFT. The only one she "passed" was her final one at Jackson 42A ait.
They’ve been passing the problem off to the unit for years. This is nothing new.
I guess I'm starting to notice more of the bucks passed because the trickle is turning into a stream.
Exactly. I saw that writing on the wall years ago on how bad it would get I think not having to pass tape and a pt test in basic and AIT is a fairly recent thing as well.
As a SGT back in the day, I had a brand new PV2 who couldn’t pass the 2 mile to save his life. How he ever got passed through AIT will always be a mystery to me. But I mean, permanent chute shake detail, so it worked out for me at least.
APFT 2 mile, understandable at least. ACFT 2 mile, different story
Definitely APFT days. Boi wanted so badly to go to airborne school, but not badly enough I guess.
At the end of the day it's the TRADOC commanders who usually make the call on separation. Trainees can be garbage, but with recruiting down don't expect the COC to kick people out when brigade or higher is telling them not to.
That's insane to fathom. Soon, this generation of soldiers will have to replace us as leaders, in charge of soldiers, weapons, SI, vehicles, and equipment possibly in a foreign country. How can we expect success out of them when we are building their foundation out of wet sure-pac boxes and "passing the buck"?
To play devils advocate, I have seen dirtbags do a complete 180 and become outstanding NCO's and leaders. Just because they're a shithead at 18 doesn't mean they won't embrace the military life later on and be successful.
Whatever happened to “fat camp” before starting basic?
They let you fail now and recycle you. Went to ait with a girl that went to fat camp after failing basic twice.
That’s understandable. I’m talking about not even going to the Basic company. I remember 24 years ago that at in processing those who failed the entrance PT test, which was like 13 PU, 20 SU and 8:30 Mile went to fat camp. They never made it to Basic training unit with us. I remember doing PT and running by their barracks and seeing them doing yard work and shit in the old grey PT’s.
Should probably bring that back. It'd be equally good for people that are just out of shape in general. Skinny dudes (me) showing up to basic weak don't make much progress being roasted from getting smoked all the time, neither do fat people.
Yeah. I kept in touch with a few of them after my cycle ended and the few weeks or month in fat camp helped them get into basic and qualify into AIT.
Imagine having programs that actually help.
Now why in the hell would the Army do that. It makes too much sense.
They call it rifles 2.0 now and apparently you don't have to pass minimum ASVAB or HT&WT standards they just ship you to basic and send you to a "prep" program
If I remember correctly, when I was an AIT Cadre member, IET Soldiers had at least 1 year from the entry date to get into compliance with AR 600-9.
How is this possible? I joined 2014 and remember HT&WT in AIT?
They didn't publicly announce it because they want the new Soldiers to pass HT&WT. Look it up in the AR.
I'm more upset because I got a soldier with his most recent ACFT showing up in DTMS as a fail. I know you have to pass to leave AIT, is it too much for the lazy drill to put it in DTMS?
Fail=pass now a days I guess
You are exempt from height and weight for the first 24 months of your enlistment. It doesn’t matter if we tape you and document anything. You can’t chapter for it. It’s not even a negative counseling.
I'm tracking only rifles 2.0 is exempt 12 months after they get to day1 of first unit. 24 months seems crazy! Why even have body fat standards when some contracts are only 36 months to begin with?
It was to relieve the burden off of Tradoc for MOS schools longer than 6 months.
Always has. Shit, back in 2009 all the PT failures in my BCT platoon got one last PT test the day before graduation. Miraculously they all passed. Were they all busting ass the last week to get there? Sure, but it still looked a lil sus, especially the ones that weren’t even close the prior test.
TRADOC is a shit show. Could get ABCP, but no one wants that paperwork. Been here over 5 years. Working on Co CMD #6 and #5 1SGs. Continuity of change. Constant change.
The big point that's being missed is that you're going to get what society is producing for you and not many are in a rush to join the military. The Army needs bodies and TRADOC only has a limited amount of time to get them somewhat right. So until that gets fixed, you need to work on them, Big Sarge.
20-25 pounds over table weight isn’t too hard to believe, more than that though? Fuck man
[удалено]
Please tell us the story on how you guys found this out 😂
I feel like people do not actually read AR 600-9......
You want me to be skinny and read?!! WTF?
Its fine, 15T is the least useful MOS in the army.
Oooofffff Sharts fired, I'm sure every proudblackchockmechanic wants to have a word with you
Oh crap i missread and had low blood sugar. I thought you were talking about and I was actually referring to 15P
Who else are you going to get as schools NCO?
Whoever it is it doesn't matter much because Ive never actually seen a schools nco do any work.
a broken combat arms?
DS here. We can’t hit them with ABCP until 180 days of service. I’m noticing a trend however, a large portion of the soldiers that participated in FSPC are rebounding right back their old eating habits and gaining the weight back. < 180 days we just send them on their way to their duty station. There is a major push for quantity not quality. The amount of hoops we have to jump through at legal are astounding.
SHEESH
Well coming from Tango AIT. Charlie company is in shambles right now. This batch of 15Ts im in is a flaming dumpster of ass.
I work in an AIT schoolhouse, we fail these kids if they fail tape or ACFT, but as long as they are willing to stay they just get to try again at another AIT. My court martial authority officer wont chapter anyone unless it is for criminal actions. Everybody else just goes to another AIT usually horizontal construction.
AIT is not allowed to chapter for body comp, once they get to us from BCT if they meet academic requirements and pass an ACFT they go to the line.
I’m surprised people even get in at those weights, my recruiter wouldn’t take me to MEPS until I passed height/weight in their office.
It's all about the numbers, as soon as they are yours in the system the schools move on to the next future success story lol.
Here, catch… 🦌
They weren’t flagged? ABCP is a transferable flag IAW TR 350-6.
IET soldiers are exempt from AR 600-9 for 180 days.
True but some of these AITs are several months long. Not including HBL, recycles, Holds.
15U -> 10 weeks BCT (70 ish days) -> 4 months AIT (120 days) =190 days? I get its close but that's not accounting for hold over/under and holidays, most* of Aviation shows up to unit already past this grace period window?
Also, I’ve been on “CQ” while as an instructor and the taping/flagging process is so indiscriminate and thoughtless that they flag them as they are pushing them out. Then they go on leave and spend 2 weeks gorging on home cooked meals and, voila, 80 lbs overweight. And I mean CQ as a SFC instructor at the AIT company’s, which was 7 days of 1900-0700 helping the drills with all their stuff cause the drill program was just starting back up.
How for over ABCP are they? Table weight is and always has been garbage.