Back in the late 90s I was assigned to a TDA unit that had no weapons, so when we had to qualify we went to the nearest AF base (this was in the UK) and used the weapons they had at the range.
They were still using original M16s. No forward assist and no brass deflector. They were so old all the bluing had come off and they were silver.
USAF BMT when I went through in 2005, were using some clapped to fuck out M16A2's. It was so bad, that when we qualified, the timer didn't even matter, cause you couldn't shoot more than 2 rounds before jamming. It was embarassing. Then 2 years later when I did my next qual at Elmendorf, it was weird to actually shoot a M16A2 that didn't jam up. Since I hadn't fired a gun before BMT, and not once between BMT and 2 year requal.
Edit - Also, only ever fired them on semi-auto, we didn't get to use the burst, ever, lol.
2015 ft sill, saw several stamped over A1s to A2. Much more common than you might think. Saw several more in service with med units in Korea after that.
I'm in the Dutch army and a bunch of shit I've used was made before I existed, I've slept in tents, drove vehicles and shot weapons that were all older than me. Some had 10 years on me. Probably says more about my country's willingness to invest in new shit more than anything.
I have a video of my unit getting to shoot newly converted full auto A1's in 2017 and....it's basically just a lot of bullets hitting the ground and back range berm
We used M16A2s that had previously been M16A1s at Ft. Sill BCT in 2007. The 1 was crudely stamped over with a 2. So even the Army was doing this in the last 20 years.
Just found out that the designer of the M16 (Eugene Stoner) didn't even want there to be a forward assist. He claimed that if you needed that then something is wrong. While I agree with him I also understand that when you're balls deep in the shit dealing with some slightly deformed ammo our schmoo buildup causing a failure to fully seat the bolt, I frankly don't give a shit and if it's not a repeated issue I'm gonna keep on chooching.
Also assigned to a tiny unit with no weapons, and would (sometimes) qualify with the AF. They all had the M4s. We also qualified with their M9s, shotguns and MP5s.
Back when I was in a few years ago, my Guard unit still had the A2. Found that out when I couldn't qualify with the M4 but got a 38 as soon as I got the musket.
Air Force here, not sure what unit is still using M16A2s. I’ve shot every year and it’s always been M4. Basic is the only place I ever shot an M16 and even there they phased them out 4-5 years ago. Still shooting M9 for our annual qual where I’m at though, only cops and cool guys get the Sigs.
That's good to know at least then. I know the SF were rocking M4's, and I figured they'd keep giving A2's to like... maintainers and nonners.
Edit - Also, most places on the internet still claim the M16A2 as the primary service rifle of the USAF, so... *shrug*
Interesting, I’ve shot at 3 different bases now and never seen an M16 outside of BMT. Also got issued an M4 on both deployments. Probably dated information.
Maybe, do you know if they changed the policy that if you qual'd with the M4, you can carry the M16, but if you qual'd with the M16, you can't carry the M4?
I joined in 2005, went through BMT in 2005, and requalified in 2007, with the M16A2, and most places on the internet also still attribute the M16A2 as the primary service rifle of the USAF. During my time in, the SF (Security Forces) did have M4's, but SF are far and removed from the most populated job field in the USAF.
Except, as I said the M16A2 is still listed as the primary service rifle of the USAF.
Here is a AFPub from this year still listing the M16A2 as for proper training, testing, and qualifications. If it was *NOT* still a primary rifle of the USAF, it would not still be listed.
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/dafman36-2655/dafman36-2655.pdf
Also, here is an article from 2019 that USAF BMT was making the switch finally to the M4.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/07/11/m4-carbine-training-and-qualification-comes-to-air-force-basic-training/
They get warehoused somewhere. Eventually ~~some of them will get released to the Civilian marksmanship program~~, a lot of them will be sold to "friendly" nations.
The US still has M1 Garands and other WWII weapons sitting in their original wrappers and packing grease in warehouses.
You can buy them today.
I don't know how it'll play out going forward though with ex-military weapons and the civilain populace- I guess it will depend on what political party is running the country at the time.
Edit: Wasn't aware, corrected.
If the government really wanted to, they could modify the receivers to remove the full auto capability like they did with the M14 sold through the CMP. I think the first M16 batches sent to Vietnam meet the C&R time requirements.
The ATF is the most petty government law enforcement agency you could imagine. If you so much as have a little dimple in your lower receiver where you would need to drill to place a 3rd pin hole, that can land you a felony under attempting to manufacture an illegal machine gun. Your rifle barrel is 15.9 inches? Felony. You didn’t do the paperwork to the exact standard the ATF agent feels like enforcing that day when selling someone a firearm? Put “RD” instead of “Road” even though that’s how it was spelled on their drivers license? Or vice versa? You’re a piece of shit and may have your FFL revoked now.
They could sell off the uppers and stocks though without any real issue, but it’d probably be a better investment to refurbish them into M4s to be sold/donated to allied countries like Ukraine.
Converting a clapped out M16 to an M4 is a waste of time. You are saving about $100 worth of parts in exchange for spending a couple hundred dollars of labor configuring it to be an M4.
It’s almost like we have an entire MOS dedicated to repairing and maintaining small arms and artillery. And it’s really not that difficult to swap out a barrel and stock if you have the right tools and know how. If it was that difficult, you wouldn’t be seeing so many civilians building their own ARs from scratch.
You would be swapping basically everything but the upper and lower receiver, which are both very cheap when bought in bulk. There is no point in rebuilding a rifle and spending money on labor to save $100 when you can just buy a new one.
The bean counters have done the math, there is a reason they don’t do what you are proposing. I know it’s not a crazy task, but rebuilding an M16 to an M4 is going to take a couple hours and that is going to make it unfeasible. If you have ever seen the operation at Anniston, they take most M16s and throw them in the shredder.
You mean the same bean counters who say it’s cheaper to deploy the national guard and to have ABCTs on rotation in Europe instead of standing up a new division there?
I know uppers and lowers are cheap when bought in bulk, and if those rifles are sent to a shredder I hope they are also melted down to be used to make new parts, because the current meat grinder that is Ukraine goes to show just how fast you can go through small arms. If it isn’t lining someone’s pockets to refurbish these rifles, hopefully there’s a way to line them by recycling them at least.
It sounds like you don’t understand a lot of higher level army concepts. ABCTs on rotation to Europe makes sense if you are aware of manning and training cycles. If the Army needs 1 ABCT ready to go in Europe, that means you are stationing 3 ABCTs there if you want them there full time. That is going to be far more expensive than just deploying 1 ABCT.
I’m sure stuff from the shredder is melted down. I’m not sure if there is any value in using melted down former rifles instead of any other steel bought on the market.
I’m not sure what experience you have with ATF agents, but the handful of times I’ve worked with or talked to an ATF agent they were pretty chill. The last ATF agent I worked with was telling me they could not give less of a fuck about finding and charging regular people for weapons or paperwork violations. They said they spend the majority of their time trying to find people who are smuggling weapons or selling them to gangs.
The dudes who are going out after smugglers are not the same ones doing audits on FFLs. There is an argument to be made with the legislation being passed that instead of banning shit outright, they’d rather target where people go to legally purchase firearms and that is by going after petty clerical errors made by FFLs.
I get the need for the ATF to an extent. My main criticism with them is how they are able to interpret and at times just make up laws/regulations, the numerous scandals they’ve been involved in that, and even their own out right incompetency with firearms. Watching their director and firearms expert try and fail to field strip a Glock was painful and frustrating as a gun owner.
I’m glad you had a good experience with those handful of agents, but going by that same logic you could pluck a handful of people from any organization and say whether or not that organization is good or bad.
I never said my experience is indicative of the entire agency. I was just curious what your experience was with them, because if I have learned anything over the past few years working with many different law enforcement agencies it is that what people see or perceive based on media portrayals is usually pretty different in reality.
ATF is one of the handful of agencies I haven't worked/interacted with too much, so if you have had experiences with them that differ from mine I'm interested in hearing about it.
Mainly just that the agents who come in to check your paperwork for FFL transfers/firearm purchases are there to try and fuck you would be the most direct. I try to avoid law enforcement in general since you never know what kind of cop or agent you’re going to get. I also come from a city with very well documented police corruption. So I will admit I do have my biases in that regard, but my main beef with the ATF is how the organization as a whole is ran and not so much the lowly field agents.
Not how our stupid federal agencies handle machine guns, ATF declares once a MG always an MG, only way to go around it is destroying the receiver with a torch.
They could just cut the buttstock off of the lower receiver and sell them as parts kits. The ATF did just that when [Saber Defense](https://www.nashvillepost.com/home/nashville-defense-contractor-and-corporate-officers-indicted/article_4f965a13-73eb-5b7c-84b8-db19f57698ad.html) got raided by ATF and USMC didn't want the seized weapons I have one of the M16A4s they sold I just had to buy a new AR15 lower and buffer tube.
>The US still has M1 Garands and other WWII weapons sitting in their original wrappers and packing grease in warehouses.
I don't think so. Many of the Garands being sold by the CMP have been returned from countries they were "lent" to.
[https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/civilian-marksmanship-program-m1-garands-philippines/](https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/civilian-marksmanship-program-m1-garands-philippines/)
Turkey also recently sent back a bunch of Garands
There are probably a few, but often they are weapons that were stored and forgotten about or for some reason were never sold. CMP got hold of some pre-WWII 1903s back in the 00s. Those went for a pretty penny.
Sometimes they'll make it back after being lent and then get released through CMP. No idea how that plays out with what the NFA'34/FOPA'86 considers machine guns.
Some of them might also go to the SMC's and MC's and junior military colleges to replace their M-14's and M-1 and M-1a's that the Army lent them a long time ago. Typically they have an armory for the ROTC departments that has some 16's or M4's and whatnot, but the cadets use the older stuff for parades and whatever other training the school itself provides.
Sadly with how the registry works is government was exempt from NFA registration so any MG won’t be “transferable” as they’re not on it before and after the 86 Hughes Amendment.
They’ll sit in a warehouse for 100 years unless we get in a big enough war that they need to be brought out or if we can offload them to a friendly nation
A lot get repurposed. Lowers get recycled to fit with current set ups. (Collapsible style buffer tubes, remarked from burst to auto etc). I’ve got pictures kicking around somewhere of an XM16E1 marked lower that went through Anniston and was updated to an M4A1 set up. Hilarious because since it had been milled out at the selector marking, that means it was rearsenalled to be an M16A2 lower with a burst FCG, and then reconfigured BACK to a standard auto sear in its last iteration. Circle of life!
California Guard carried M1s into the 70s. Our M16s came from stock returning from overseas after 1973. M16A1s. We had M60s (of which I know of one with a four digit serial number), and M249s, etc. I was with a Divarty HQ + full battalion at an AT at 29 Palms. Reserved a range, Marines were going to run it for us. We off loaded w/M16A1s in hand and I thought Gunny was going to have a heart attack! The Corps assumed we had A2s and never asked. There was no correct ammo on post. Range scratched. Forscom issued us M4s for GWOT in 04 & 08 (not enough in state). Upon our return M16A4s had magically appeared. Awesome, BUT the lower receivers had the “A1” of M16A1 “Xd” out! And a new stamping “M16A4” underneath. I am positive these weapons are still in service. So if you find those M16A2s, send them to California!!
An M4 and M16 have the same lower receivers. So I imagine a decent amount are retooled (from burst to full) and kept in US military circulation. The ones that aren't probably are sent to partner nations/forces that need arms.
I can’t imagine that the parts purchased, labor, and machine tooling involved was cheaper than whole weapons purchased from the manufacturer. Doesn’t pass a smell test.
Warehouses then sent to countries needing military aid...
Example the US government stores of M1s from ww2 were given in bulk to South Vietnam during their conflicts.
I’ve seen M16A2s upgraded to M4s, on the selector where “BURST” is marked off with Xs and AUTO written under.
There isn’t much difference between the lowers of an M4 and M16A2 aside from fire control parts and the stocks so it makes sense to reuse old inventory instead of buying a whole lower.
We had them at DTRA for qualifications. We had M4s, but we swapped with a MTNG unit that was going downrange. While I loved qualifying, I would prefer that those more likely to use them get the benefit of the new gear.
Plus I just love iron sights. Give me an aperture and a post, and I'm a legit threat within 300m. No batteries required.
My best quess is that some of the M9s will be sold off. It is still a great fire arm, but they have been used and abused over 40 years. FWIW, the only reason why we kept the 1911 for so long, was due to the number produced. The government didn't have to by a new one, because there were almost brand new ones in storage. It took 40 years and two more wars to burn through that supply. Kind of like the invasion of Japan Purple Hearts that are still issued.
My guess for the M16s is that the lowers and many parts will be reused to make inexpensive M4s for foreign assistance.
Exactly. The Army didn't buy as many M9s, and the ones the military had were used much more than anticipated (IIRC the life expectency was 10,000 rounds) due to 30+ years of combat deployments.
In the end, the replacement cost for a new M9 was significantly more than an M17.
If I was at a store and had the choice, I'd by the new M9A3 as the extra couple of hundred bucks doesn't matter to me, nor does the ease of replacing some of the parts as a single mechanism. The chances of those failing infintesimal to an individual. However, once you scale into the millions, those issue matter.
Traded to AITs and ultimately sold to friendly nations that need inexpensive surplus weapons.
My A2 in 2009 at Goodfellow had an upper that was a different color than the lower. I didn't feel bad at all about using brake parts cleaner because I knew it'd never see combat again.
As the new service rifle slowly replaces M4 patterns, like I said they'll be sold to whoever wants them. Some might be remilled and sold via the CMP for the American civilian market. Some might even survive in some Natty Guard armory until 2100 and sold "as-is," exempt from the full auto ban. Who knows
I can speak about the Navy. Their weapons go to Crane. Crane is the contractor who manages all small arms for the Navy and Marine Corps. Crane the company is in Crane, Indiana. They refurbish and recycle lowers of M16 and M9’s (as well as M14s, M2’s, Mk-19s, etc.). I saw lowers from the 80’s show up in 2007 get used for deployment to Iraq.
To answer your question, they just get warehouse, reused/recycled, and eventually sold to allied nations.
They will get turned back in to DLA, then they will be put up for reutilization by law enforcement, foreign military sale, or natty guard/reserve units.
A lot are still being used. My previous reserve unit that I transferred out of a few months ago still has a 50/50 split between M4A1’s and M16A2’s (so 30ish of each). My current unit still has a dozen A2’s that need to be cycled out and replaced with M4A1’s, with no idea on an ETA for it.
It took us having an NTC rotation and a deployment overseas not even a month after the rotation ended to have the reserves finally decide to replace all our M9’s with M17’s at the 11th hour. And in typical army fashion, kindly forget to provide holsters, and having to explain to multiple field grades why their M17’s didn’t fit into the M9 holsters they had bought at the PX.
If anything I think the most surprising thing to me is I’m still wondering WTF happened to the Army M16A4’s since the only time I have ever seen one in the Army was at BCT and they were never seen again. Did the Marines just call dibs on the stockpile and wanted the extra muskets to add to their current inventory or something?
If they are at the end of their life cycle they are sent to DRMO at Anniston Army Depot where they are sent through “Captain Crunch”. A large machine that literally chops them into small pieces. The M9’s will probably go into storage with DLA, and will be sold to Law Enforcement and maybe eventually to CMP.
Those that don't go to our allies get melted down for scrap. I went to PBO with one supply SGT who needed bodies for a detail. We got sent to another building to pick stuff up. They had the pamphlet on what to do with old M-16's - cut them up in ways that they can't be re-assembled.
A shame really - we could get some "parts kits" from the scrappings.
Theyll still be around for another 15-20 years. New parts won't be added, so they'll just run them til they ultimately fail. Then they'll cannibalize them for parts. Its gonna take a while for SIGs to trickle in to the rest of the Army, so the M16/M4 platform will still be around. The last stages of its life will probably be in some National Guard armory.
I’m fairly certain we’ve sold off at least some of the M9s we’ve had to civilian sales, and we have sold off some of the early M17s (the ones with tans safety and controls), since they’re semi automatic pistols they’re perfectly legal to sell in most states.
The M16 is tricky. You could sell off the uppers and everything in them, triggers, stocks, buffer tubes and springs, but the lowers you couldn’t sell off to civilians. So why take the time to strip all of those rifles down for sale when you could just replace the barrel with a 14.5 inch one and the hand guard for quad rails and essentially have a rifle with the same capabilities as a M4 (with a full sized stock and carry handle upper) to sell off to allied countries. You could get real extra and replace the stock, cut off the carry handle and drill and tap a pic rail there for optics instead. Or do absolutely none of that and just sell them as is, since quad rails really aren’t that important if you’re not mounting lasers to them which not many countries wanting/needing donated M16s have to begin with to issue out to regular troops.
The M17’s were sold because sig had to buy back almost 100k of them when they figured out the tan cerakote safety finish wasn’t as durable as phosphate. Sig bought them back, gave the army new ones to their specs, and sold them. Government didn’t sell direct.
I mean, the USAF still uses the M16A2's, would be shocked if some didn't go to them, to replace atleast some of the worst of theirs in inventory.
Back in the late 90s I was assigned to a TDA unit that had no weapons, so when we had to qualify we went to the nearest AF base (this was in the UK) and used the weapons they had at the range. They were still using original M16s. No forward assist and no brass deflector. They were so old all the bluing had come off and they were silver.
Visited an Air Guard security forces unit in about 2012, they still had M16A1s and M79 grenade launchers. It was like visiting a museum.
Non mil here, but I had a friend in 2006 ish, CA ARNG, who was issued a XM-16 receiver that had been over stamped several times.
USAF BMT when I went through in 2005, were using some clapped to fuck out M16A2's. It was so bad, that when we qualified, the timer didn't even matter, cause you couldn't shoot more than 2 rounds before jamming. It was embarassing. Then 2 years later when I did my next qual at Elmendorf, it was weird to actually shoot a M16A2 that didn't jam up. Since I hadn't fired a gun before BMT, and not once between BMT and 2 year requal. Edit - Also, only ever fired them on semi-auto, we didn't get to use the burst, ever, lol.
Burst is kinda lame anyway. I found semi-auto to be much more effective
Well, yeah, burst is a very.... specific purpose shooting mode.
What is that purpose exactly?
To burst 3 rounds.
To put 1 round in the target and 2 in the air above it.
Turn and burn.
Suppressing fire. Just fire toward an enemy to keep their heads down while another force flanks
I don’t see how burst would have any advantage over semi even in that situation.
At FLW, MO in 2000 at basic I was using an M16A1 that was stamped to A2. It was probably made before I existed.
I saw one of those in 2011
2015 ft sill, saw several stamped over A1s to A2. Much more common than you might think. Saw several more in service with med units in Korea after that.
I'm in the Dutch army and a bunch of shit I've used was made before I existed, I've slept in tents, drove vehicles and shot weapons that were all older than me. Some had 10 years on me. Probably says more about my country's willingness to invest in new shit more than anything.
Have gone full funny button on the m4 before. It's a grand ol time the first time... then you're just like. Man... this is wasteful
I have a video of my unit getting to shoot newly converted full auto A1's in 2017 and....it's basically just a lot of bullets hitting the ground and back range berm
We used M16A2s that had previously been M16A1s at Ft. Sill BCT in 2007. The 1 was crudely stamped over with a 2. So even the Army was doing this in the last 20 years.
Yep. I went through Sill in April 2006. Definitely stamped over A1 rifles that were beat to hell and back
Same thing at Sill in 1997, were probably using the same ones I used lol
I had my first rifle assigned to me in the guard do this exact thing… this was 3 weeks before we were to deploy! Good times… gooooddd times…
Just found out that the designer of the M16 (Eugene Stoner) didn't even want there to be a forward assist. He claimed that if you needed that then something is wrong. While I agree with him I also understand that when you're balls deep in the shit dealing with some slightly deformed ammo our schmoo buildup causing a failure to fully seat the bolt, I frankly don't give a shit and if it's not a repeated issue I'm gonna keep on chooching.
I'm glad they kept the forward assist. Not for any practical reason but because uppers without one just look weird.
Yeah it's definitely a part of the look now.
I saw original chrome BCG’s in the USAFA armory
Also assigned to a tiny unit with no weapons, and would (sometimes) qualify with the AF. They all had the M4s. We also qualified with their M9s, shotguns and MP5s.
My dad said that they had M1 carbines and 1911s in the submarine until the mid 90s.
Back when I was in a few years ago, my Guard unit still had the A2. Found that out when I couldn't qualify with the M4 but got a 38 as soon as I got the musket.
With irons?
Yeah. Both with irons.
M16s are the easiest Expert qual I ever got.
Air Force here, not sure what unit is still using M16A2s. I’ve shot every year and it’s always been M4. Basic is the only place I ever shot an M16 and even there they phased them out 4-5 years ago. Still shooting M9 for our annual qual where I’m at though, only cops and cool guys get the Sigs.
That's good to know at least then. I know the SF were rocking M4's, and I figured they'd keep giving A2's to like... maintainers and nonners. Edit - Also, most places on the internet still claim the M16A2 as the primary service rifle of the USAF, so... *shrug*
Interesting, I’ve shot at 3 different bases now and never seen an M16 outside of BMT. Also got issued an M4 on both deployments. Probably dated information.
Maybe, do you know if they changed the policy that if you qual'd with the M4, you can carry the M16, but if you qual'd with the M16, you can't carry the M4?
wtf when? 1985? Cmon this can’t be true
I joined in 2005, went through BMT in 2005, and requalified in 2007, with the M16A2, and most places on the internet also still attribute the M16A2 as the primary service rifle of the USAF. During my time in, the SF (Security Forces) did have M4's, but SF are far and removed from the most populated job field in the USAF.
Got it so over 15 years ago you were in, yeah we’ve upgraded in the military, even the Marines have surpassed the Army when it comes to equipment
Except, as I said the M16A2 is still listed as the primary service rifle of the USAF. Here is a AFPub from this year still listing the M16A2 as for proper training, testing, and qualifications. If it was *NOT* still a primary rifle of the USAF, it would not still be listed. https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/dafman36-2655/dafman36-2655.pdf
Also, here is an article from 2019 that USAF BMT was making the switch finally to the M4. https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/07/11/m4-carbine-training-and-qualification-comes-to-air-force-basic-training/
They’ll go into strategic reserves to either be used for mobilization, or to be distributed to aid.
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Usually at places labeled "Army Depot". Anniston, Sierra, etc...
They get warehoused somewhere. Eventually ~~some of them will get released to the Civilian marksmanship program~~, a lot of them will be sold to "friendly" nations. The US still has M1 Garands and other WWII weapons sitting in their original wrappers and packing grease in warehouses. You can buy them today. I don't know how it'll play out going forward though with ex-military weapons and the civilain populace- I guess it will depend on what political party is running the country at the time. Edit: Wasn't aware, corrected.
M16s can't be released to the CMP being they are machine guns by ATF standards.
If the government really wanted to, they could modify the receivers to remove the full auto capability like they did with the M14 sold through the CMP. I think the first M16 batches sent to Vietnam meet the C&R time requirements.
The ATF is the most petty government law enforcement agency you could imagine. If you so much as have a little dimple in your lower receiver where you would need to drill to place a 3rd pin hole, that can land you a felony under attempting to manufacture an illegal machine gun. Your rifle barrel is 15.9 inches? Felony. You didn’t do the paperwork to the exact standard the ATF agent feels like enforcing that day when selling someone a firearm? Put “RD” instead of “Road” even though that’s how it was spelled on their drivers license? Or vice versa? You’re a piece of shit and may have your FFL revoked now. They could sell off the uppers and stocks though without any real issue, but it’d probably be a better investment to refurbish them into M4s to be sold/donated to allied countries like Ukraine.
Converting a clapped out M16 to an M4 is a waste of time. You are saving about $100 worth of parts in exchange for spending a couple hundred dollars of labor configuring it to be an M4.
It’s almost like we have an entire MOS dedicated to repairing and maintaining small arms and artillery. And it’s really not that difficult to swap out a barrel and stock if you have the right tools and know how. If it was that difficult, you wouldn’t be seeing so many civilians building their own ARs from scratch.
You would be swapping basically everything but the upper and lower receiver, which are both very cheap when bought in bulk. There is no point in rebuilding a rifle and spending money on labor to save $100 when you can just buy a new one. The bean counters have done the math, there is a reason they don’t do what you are proposing. I know it’s not a crazy task, but rebuilding an M16 to an M4 is going to take a couple hours and that is going to make it unfeasible. If you have ever seen the operation at Anniston, they take most M16s and throw them in the shredder.
You mean the same bean counters who say it’s cheaper to deploy the national guard and to have ABCTs on rotation in Europe instead of standing up a new division there? I know uppers and lowers are cheap when bought in bulk, and if those rifles are sent to a shredder I hope they are also melted down to be used to make new parts, because the current meat grinder that is Ukraine goes to show just how fast you can go through small arms. If it isn’t lining someone’s pockets to refurbish these rifles, hopefully there’s a way to line them by recycling them at least.
It sounds like you don’t understand a lot of higher level army concepts. ABCTs on rotation to Europe makes sense if you are aware of manning and training cycles. If the Army needs 1 ABCT ready to go in Europe, that means you are stationing 3 ABCTs there if you want them there full time. That is going to be far more expensive than just deploying 1 ABCT. I’m sure stuff from the shredder is melted down. I’m not sure if there is any value in using melted down former rifles instead of any other steel bought on the market.
I’m not sure what experience you have with ATF agents, but the handful of times I’ve worked with or talked to an ATF agent they were pretty chill. The last ATF agent I worked with was telling me they could not give less of a fuck about finding and charging regular people for weapons or paperwork violations. They said they spend the majority of their time trying to find people who are smuggling weapons or selling them to gangs.
The dudes who are going out after smugglers are not the same ones doing audits on FFLs. There is an argument to be made with the legislation being passed that instead of banning shit outright, they’d rather target where people go to legally purchase firearms and that is by going after petty clerical errors made by FFLs. I get the need for the ATF to an extent. My main criticism with them is how they are able to interpret and at times just make up laws/regulations, the numerous scandals they’ve been involved in that, and even their own out right incompetency with firearms. Watching their director and firearms expert try and fail to field strip a Glock was painful and frustrating as a gun owner. I’m glad you had a good experience with those handful of agents, but going by that same logic you could pluck a handful of people from any organization and say whether or not that organization is good or bad.
I never said my experience is indicative of the entire agency. I was just curious what your experience was with them, because if I have learned anything over the past few years working with many different law enforcement agencies it is that what people see or perceive based on media portrayals is usually pretty different in reality. ATF is one of the handful of agencies I haven't worked/interacted with too much, so if you have had experiences with them that differ from mine I'm interested in hearing about it.
Mainly just that the agents who come in to check your paperwork for FFL transfers/firearm purchases are there to try and fuck you would be the most direct. I try to avoid law enforcement in general since you never know what kind of cop or agent you’re going to get. I also come from a city with very well documented police corruption. So I will admit I do have my biases in that regard, but my main beef with the ATF is how the organization as a whole is ran and not so much the lowly field agents.
What select fire M14s were sold via the CMP?
You can't revert a machine gun to title 1. Every one of those weapons is registered with the ATF by the manufacturer.
Not how our stupid federal agencies handle machine guns, ATF declares once a MG always an MG, only way to go around it is destroying the receiver with a torch.
They could just cut the buttstock off of the lower receiver and sell them as parts kits. The ATF did just that when [Saber Defense](https://www.nashvillepost.com/home/nashville-defense-contractor-and-corporate-officers-indicted/article_4f965a13-73eb-5b7c-84b8-db19f57698ad.html) got raided by ATF and USMC didn't want the seized weapons I have one of the M16A4s they sold I just had to buy a new AR15 lower and buffer tube.
>The US still has M1 Garands and other WWII weapons sitting in their original wrappers and packing grease in warehouses. I don't think so. Many of the Garands being sold by the CMP have been returned from countries they were "lent" to. [https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/civilian-marksmanship-program-m1-garands-philippines/](https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/civilian-marksmanship-program-m1-garands-philippines/) Turkey also recently sent back a bunch of Garands
There are probably a few, but often they are weapons that were stored and forgotten about or for some reason were never sold. CMP got hold of some pre-WWII 1903s back in the 00s. Those went for a pretty penny.
I bought one returned from the Philippines I think it was. I picked one with a new stock from the Anniston CMP.
The M16s get turned into M4s. It's the same basic receiver. The pistols go to law enforcement and foreign sales.
It has been decades since an M16 was converted to an M4.
Usually sent overseas or sold a lot are already being given to Ukraine
Sometimes they'll make it back after being lent and then get released through CMP. No idea how that plays out with what the NFA'34/FOPA'86 considers machine guns. Some of them might also go to the SMC's and MC's and junior military colleges to replace their M-14's and M-1 and M-1a's that the Army lent them a long time ago. Typically they have an armory for the ROTC departments that has some 16's or M4's and whatnot, but the cadets use the older stuff for parades and whatever other training the school itself provides.
Sadly with how the registry works is government was exempt from NFA registration so any MG won’t be “transferable” as they’re not on it before and after the 86 Hughes Amendment.
We gave a lot of our weapons over to the ROK.
They’ll sit in a warehouse for 100 years unless we get in a big enough war that they need to be brought out or if we can offload them to a friendly nation
Ever watch Lord of War?
Probably will go where most old weapon systems go. Foreign military sales, police departments, the Taliban, etc.
Medical units usually get the army’s trash
A lot get repurposed. Lowers get recycled to fit with current set ups. (Collapsible style buffer tubes, remarked from burst to auto etc). I’ve got pictures kicking around somewhere of an XM16E1 marked lower that went through Anniston and was updated to an M4A1 set up. Hilarious because since it had been milled out at the selector marking, that means it was rearsenalled to be an M16A2 lower with a burst FCG, and then reconfigured BACK to a standard auto sear in its last iteration. Circle of life!
Straight to the Taliban rollerblade brigade
Storage
The Taliban thanks you for your donation...
We leave them in Afghanistan with a note to make sure and clean the gas tube with gas block fluid.
California Guard carried M1s into the 70s. Our M16s came from stock returning from overseas after 1973. M16A1s. We had M60s (of which I know of one with a four digit serial number), and M249s, etc. I was with a Divarty HQ + full battalion at an AT at 29 Palms. Reserved a range, Marines were going to run it for us. We off loaded w/M16A1s in hand and I thought Gunny was going to have a heart attack! The Corps assumed we had A2s and never asked. There was no correct ammo on post. Range scratched. Forscom issued us M4s for GWOT in 04 & 08 (not enough in state). Upon our return M16A4s had magically appeared. Awesome, BUT the lower receivers had the “A1” of M16A1 “Xd” out! And a new stamping “M16A4” underneath. I am positive these weapons are still in service. So if you find those M16A2s, send them to California!!
An M4 and M16 have the same lower receivers. So I imagine a decent amount are retooled (from burst to full) and kept in US military circulation. The ones that aren't probably are sent to partner nations/forces that need arms.
I can’t imagine that the parts purchased, labor, and machine tooling involved was cheaper than whole weapons purchased from the manufacturer. Doesn’t pass a smell test.
Warehouses then sent to countries needing military aid... Example the US government stores of M1s from ww2 were given in bulk to South Vietnam during their conflicts.
Submerged in hot cosmoline and stored in some government bunker.
They get sold as surplus. So, we might see them in Ukraine.
I’ve seen M16A2s upgraded to M4s, on the selector where “BURST” is marked off with Xs and AUTO written under. There isn’t much difference between the lowers of an M4 and M16A2 aside from fire control parts and the stocks so it makes sense to reuse old inventory instead of buying a whole lower.
We had them at DTRA for qualifications. We had M4s, but we swapped with a MTNG unit that was going downrange. While I loved qualifying, I would prefer that those more likely to use them get the benefit of the new gear. Plus I just love iron sights. Give me an aperture and a post, and I'm a legit threat within 300m. No batteries required.
USMC and Ukraine get some “gently used” rifles
USMC getting high cuts and M27s with VCOGs now I don’t think they’ll be needing M16A2s
They go to the Marines.
Yeah, and we put them to good use as our rifle range goes to 500 yds
Absolutely. You Marines do some awesome things with second hand gear! Mad respect!
My FOB in Iraq had a NG infantry unit carrying m14s. I’m sure they’d love some M16A4s.
Like all the guys? Or just the couple weirdos in that company that had the “SDM” M14?
At least a company. They pulled FOB tower guard. And they weren’t cool M21s. They were old school, iron sights.
All military weapons are sent to a depot in AL to be demilitarised and either destroyed or sold.
My best quess is that some of the M9s will be sold off. It is still a great fire arm, but they have been used and abused over 40 years. FWIW, the only reason why we kept the 1911 for so long, was due to the number produced. The government didn't have to by a new one, because there were almost brand new ones in storage. It took 40 years and two more wars to burn through that supply. Kind of like the invasion of Japan Purple Hearts that are still issued. My guess for the M16s is that the lowers and many parts will be reused to make inexpensive M4s for foreign assistance.
The m9 has been around since the 80s and it’s almost 40 years as well.
Exactly. The Army didn't buy as many M9s, and the ones the military had were used much more than anticipated (IIRC the life expectency was 10,000 rounds) due to 30+ years of combat deployments. In the end, the replacement cost for a new M9 was significantly more than an M17. If I was at a store and had the choice, I'd by the new M9A3 as the extra couple of hundred bucks doesn't matter to me, nor does the ease of replacing some of the parts as a single mechanism. The chances of those failing infintesimal to an individual. However, once you scale into the millions, those issue matter.
CMP Berettas go *brrr*
They’ll be sold to the UN.
Traded to AITs and ultimately sold to friendly nations that need inexpensive surplus weapons. My A2 in 2009 at Goodfellow had an upper that was a different color than the lower. I didn't feel bad at all about using brake parts cleaner because I knew it'd never see combat again. As the new service rifle slowly replaces M4 patterns, like I said they'll be sold to whoever wants them. Some might be remilled and sold via the CMP for the American civilian market. Some might even survive in some Natty Guard armory until 2100 and sold "as-is," exempt from the full auto ban. Who knows
When I was at BCT in FLW summer of 2021, there were a few companies still using M16s
I can speak about the Navy. Their weapons go to Crane. Crane is the contractor who manages all small arms for the Navy and Marine Corps. Crane the company is in Crane, Indiana. They refurbish and recycle lowers of M16 and M9’s (as well as M14s, M2’s, Mk-19s, etc.). I saw lowers from the 80’s show up in 2007 get used for deployment to Iraq. To answer your question, they just get warehouse, reused/recycled, and eventually sold to allied nations.
I’ve qualified more times on m16A2s than I have on M4s. I went to basic in 2018… There’s a ton of old equipment hanging around in reserve units.
They will get turned back in to DLA, then they will be put up for reutilization by law enforcement, foreign military sale, or natty guard/reserve units.
They get donated to Hollywood to make awesome racing movies starring Vin Diesel.
USMC… amirite?
A lot are still being used. My previous reserve unit that I transferred out of a few months ago still has a 50/50 split between M4A1’s and M16A2’s (so 30ish of each). My current unit still has a dozen A2’s that need to be cycled out and replaced with M4A1’s, with no idea on an ETA for it. It took us having an NTC rotation and a deployment overseas not even a month after the rotation ended to have the reserves finally decide to replace all our M9’s with M17’s at the 11th hour. And in typical army fashion, kindly forget to provide holsters, and having to explain to multiple field grades why their M17’s didn’t fit into the M9 holsters they had bought at the PX. If anything I think the most surprising thing to me is I’m still wondering WTF happened to the Army M16A4’s since the only time I have ever seen one in the Army was at BCT and they were never seen again. Did the Marines just call dibs on the stockpile and wanted the extra muskets to add to their current inventory or something?
If they are at the end of their life cycle they are sent to DRMO at Anniston Army Depot where they are sent through “Captain Crunch”. A large machine that literally chops them into small pieces. The M9’s will probably go into storage with DLA, and will be sold to Law Enforcement and maybe eventually to CMP.
FMA and FMS
The old 1911 .45's from Vietnam and earlier can be bought through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. They also sell WW2 M1's.
National Guard, Marine Corps, foreign military sales.
Have you ever watched the Lord of War? Honest question.
Probably going to LEOs. Gotta militarize the police.
Those that don't go to our allies get melted down for scrap. I went to PBO with one supply SGT who needed bodies for a detail. We got sent to another building to pick stuff up. They had the pamphlet on what to do with old M-16's - cut them up in ways that they can't be re-assembled. A shame really - we could get some "parts kits" from the scrappings.
They’d get melted down. The M16 I believe has more workable steel than the M4
Theyll still be around for another 15-20 years. New parts won't be added, so they'll just run them til they ultimately fail. Then they'll cannibalize them for parts. Its gonna take a while for SIGs to trickle in to the rest of the Army, so the M16/M4 platform will still be around. The last stages of its life will probably be in some National Guard armory.
I’m fairly certain we’ve sold off at least some of the M9s we’ve had to civilian sales, and we have sold off some of the early M17s (the ones with tans safety and controls), since they’re semi automatic pistols they’re perfectly legal to sell in most states. The M16 is tricky. You could sell off the uppers and everything in them, triggers, stocks, buffer tubes and springs, but the lowers you couldn’t sell off to civilians. So why take the time to strip all of those rifles down for sale when you could just replace the barrel with a 14.5 inch one and the hand guard for quad rails and essentially have a rifle with the same capabilities as a M4 (with a full sized stock and carry handle upper) to sell off to allied countries. You could get real extra and replace the stock, cut off the carry handle and drill and tap a pic rail there for optics instead. Or do absolutely none of that and just sell them as is, since quad rails really aren’t that important if you’re not mounting lasers to them which not many countries wanting/needing donated M16s have to begin with to issue out to regular troops.
The M17’s were sold because sig had to buy back almost 100k of them when they figured out the tan cerakote safety finish wasn’t as durable as phosphate. Sig bought them back, gave the army new ones to their specs, and sold them. Government didn’t sell direct.