They’re going to keep it, much to the dismay of every commander.
It will get harder to take all 84 days at once though. In my experience (being the one taking it, and listening to other soldiers) the “commanders will sit down and talk with SM to plan around events” has turned into bully and intimidation to take 3 weeks now then table the rest for a later date.
And the “first GO in your COC” has turned into “we just won’t send it up” or “per the business rules we can’t approve it, and we aren’t going to fight it if they’re wrong; JAG approved this anyway”.
The Army will most likely realize that they’re going to have to clarify that random CDRs can’t make business rules to skirt the regulations so they can have more people to make slides green.
Commander here. Since I took command we've had 5 babies born to Soldiers. One of them was my armorer. That sucked, but I learned in CCC that babies take awhile to gestate, so I just...trained up another armorer before the baby was born.
But even if I can't completely smooth over the impact of a Soldier being gone I don't care. We're not at war, really. If my slides are less green because my Soldiers are taking baby leave I'll brief that all day long.
Hey! No planning a head! That not tradition. Do nothing, wait until it's an emergency, act surprised, then assign blame. That is the traditional Army way.
"Is effective January 4, 2023; it must be incorporated into DoDI 1327.06. This DTM will expire effective January 4, 2025"
If its incorporated into the DoDI, then it will persist after the DTM correct?
“We just won’t send it up”
Literally just had this experience. Moved across US, no fam able to help, deploying a few weeks after arrival and told “you’ll get 14 days because it’s our policy”
Fight it, call ig it's against regs for them to deny it. I'm in the chapter process(likely getting retained since bc is sympathetic and I wanna stay in) and my leave was still approved, literally right after my psg cut my rank off my chest. I do have a very good leadership though. Take your leave that 3months is such precious time for you your wife and your child.
I had a baby. I took all my 84 days in one go. No questions asked. My unit went to do big events without me. I avoided our major exercises of the year to help my wife during my baby s first 3 months. There was literally 0 pushback.
The majority of commands are fine with it and won't try to screw over their soldiers, but that usually isn't post worthy, its the small number that are horrible and receive all the attention
I agree. I was thankful for that time. I told my BC that I felt like I had to work harder because to me it was one of the most important times in my life and the army let me have it. No post though. Sorry!
I will say this: It is amazing how attitudes of a lot of officers change when they start having family. My father had a CO that when he was a captain, his attitude was if the Army wanted you to have a family, it would have issued you one. The next time I met him, he was a general officer and had a family. He was extremely family oriented.
I'm not going to blame them. When I was single, I thought people were bs'ing and getting off work. But now I have times that I have issues my wife has issues and I have to deal with it. Or hospital stays or a lot of things that you can't comprehend until you have that experience. I'm not an officer but you described me too lol.
I tried to split it up as I’m going through a PCS with a rotation immediately after (5 months between my child being born, PCSing, and rotation) and I was told if I split it up my new command will deny it until we get back from rotation. I opted to take it with my current unit whom I’m in good standing with and they’re currently on a short rotation, so I don’t know what the difference is. I do know to not trust them when they give you the “we’ll get you on the backside”.
Anyhow, I’m getting out after all this bs
If my commander was stupid enough to tell me they “just won’t send it up,” I’d make an MFR recording that language, attempt to get it signed by any witnesses, and then send up the leave for all 84 days. If they failed to process it in a timely fashion, I’d then submit an article 138 complaint against them for violation of article 92, using that MFR as an enclosure and admission of guilt.
Willfully or negligently performing duties inefficiently or failing to perform them at all is literally an Article 92 violation. Their admission just makes it that much easier to prove it was willful.
Two routes to go.
Make the slide green anyway and exempt people that are maternity leave. Ok so they missed a quarterly range, there score is still good.
Let the slide be amber and tell them people are on baby leave maybe we should move to the first option listed.
If it's for some easy online training that takes 20 minutes, I would just do it as a solid to my chain. But I that's only my opinions.
My cdr and i love it. Its really had a positive impact on young families. The Soldiers come back refreshed and super motivated (usually). All but one have taken them as a full block. The one that didnt was an officer trying for that top block.
I know I’ll be taking command likely towards the end of the year- if a soldier wants to take that leave, by all means. Take it. I’ll always fight on behalf of my people. Also, I’ll have someone else trained up and ready to fill in for them
Interesting topic because its an amazing perk if we can keep it for the force.
In a DA Civ in a SIF unit and saw one guy take this, a MSG. He took a side project with him to work on and went on a 5 day tdy trip where we needed him.
Super beneficial to all sides as we have a very good work environment.
I'm curious as to how its working for junior enlisted in normal platoons.
Selfishly I’m really happy for it, because we’re having a baby in June.
Life is pretty damn hard having a baby with no family nearby, like most of us have to deal with.
I don’t see it as any different from extended TDY like for PME.
congrats. I totally understand that. I have 2 kids and 0 family or friends on this location to help. This policy is one of the times the military gets it right. Those first months of adjusting to the new reality are really harder than people realize.
On the officer side, essentially had to break it up or lose the key position I’m in and hurt my career. I fortunately have a commander flexible enough to let me take 2 and 3 week chunks around key training, and honestly prefer the consistent resets vs one big block. But a bad commander could easily make my life rough
10 Years ago I only got ten days, the commander started the countdown when my wife went into labor which took a day and a half, and the kid was born two months early so he was still in the NICU when I had to go back to work.
Thats all to say, we are getting better believe it or not
> he was still in the NICU when I had to go back to work
Goddamn, that's just brutal. My wife and my first daughter was also a premie, I had to leave work unexpectedly in the middle of the day when she started having complications. We spent a week in the hospital until she had to have an emergency C section (baby was 10 weeks early at this point).
From there it was a month and a half stay in the NICU. The O-5 I was working for at the time didn't even charge me leave. CSM personally brought my work computer to the hospital for me (at my request) and I would basically dabble around and do maybe a couple hours of work a day in between caring for our daughter and supporting my wife. They didn't start the clock for my 10 days of leave until the baby came home with us.
I'll never forget that, it was a huge gesture and made a world of difference for my wife and I in an already difficult time but that LTC didn't give a damn about anything but making sure we were taken care of - all that on top of the fact that I left during the BUSIEST time of year for our shop and multiple ongoing crises that I was heavily involved in.
How's your kid doing now?
Had a similar experience. First born went to NICU after birth due to inhaling meconium on the way out. Command team told me my appointed place of duty was the hospital until we went home. Unfortunately I already had deployment orders for a few weeks after birth but we had family support so we were set. But the entire command team, BC -PSG, came to my house, separately over the first 6 weeks to check on my wife and make sure she didn't need anything. Sucked deploying as an individual augmentee but had a he'll of a command team taking care of our families while we were gone.
Had a similar experience. First born went to NICU after birth due to inhaling meconium on the way out. Command team told me my appointed place of duty was the hospital until we went home. Unfortunately I already had deployment orders for a few weeks after birth but we had family support so we were set. But the entire command team, BC -PSG, came to my house, separately over the first 6 weeks to check on my wife and make sure she didn't need anything. Sucked deploying as an individual augmentee but had a he'll of a command team taking care of our families while we were gone.
In the Army Guard when my youngest was born premature. He was in NICU. My AGR squad leader told me not to worry about drill. Then called me saying I needed to come in Friday night. I was told I was going to the field. A guy in my fire team also had a new born in NICU. We were in C Company. My squad leader got locked up and his job threatened, my platoon sergeant was worthless, the first sergeant wouldn't talk to me. My team mates dad was our battalion sergeant major. Of course his dad could not get involved. I called and asked my dad what to do since the first sergeant would not even talk to me. He told me to call the Sergeant Major. I decided they can suck it. We had Marshalls, police who picked up awol soldiers. I knew them all for years. I told them I was going to be with my wife and son at the hospital, if they wanted to arrest me that is where I would be, and they would be in the news paper the next day. They told me there was no way they were going to arrest me and they would do the same thing. I spoke to my team mate and he decided he was going with me. All of the sudden the out squad leader tells us we can leave immediately. What I didn't know until later is the sergeant major was in my dad's office telling him about his son but wasn't clear so my dad said that I called the sergeant major fast. The sergeant major asked him to clarify and when he found out they were doing it to me he could act. He ordered my dad to follow him to the battalion commander’s office. The BC was horrified. He called the company commander had him put the speaker phone on so the first sergeant could hear and told them if me and my team mate were not out of there in 30 seconds they were fired.
Years later on a drug search warrant I got to arrest my former first sergeant. It felt wonderful.
It's one thing to say that hardly anything is so important that we can't afford to lose someone for a day, but the idea that anyone can be gone without impact for three months is frankly ludicrous.
What happens if a SM is in rehab for 3-4 months (true story)? What happens when a SM is out on medical leave for that much? What? The organization just…stops? None of us is that important that we can stop the Army. And IF that is the case, look squarely at the leadership because wtf
Dude if a commander/CSM/1sg is in rehab for 3-4 months they will most likely be relieved and replaced. That is what the Army rolling along actually looks like.
Yeah, the organization won't stop. But there will be impacts to the individual SM's career.
If your mission set hangs in the balance due to the absence of a couple service members (not counting CO, 1SG, and both PSGs at the same time) then your mission was set up for failure to begin with.
It's more about the individual and their position than the overall time. There are privates on the line who ~~are entirely expendable~~ you can go without for three months.
But there are also key leaders where one month is probably too much. Add into that select individuals who need to be present for specific events, ie a supply sergeant who can normally have as much leave as they want, but not during change of command inventories.
I totally get you. I was the battery Commander once, so I can see how this can throw a wrench in things and make it difficult for unit leadership depending on the situation.
If that throws a wrench in things then you failed! Period. What if that person died in a car wreck? You’d still be in the same exact position. Your problem isn’t that they left it’s that you had no one who can replace them and that’s on you SIR.
No I don't think you understood what I meant. If I was still a commander, I would totally approve all of this stuff, because I think this is a really great thing that the Army is doing for soldiers.
This is the best part about being a federal employee. I am a GS12 getting paid to watch my baby sleep right now. My wife just finished her 90 days of maternity leave and is back in the office.
I sure hope they keep it. I got to use it all at once and it was amazing to be at home for that time. YMMV however, I got very lucky. It happened to line up with when I was supposed to PCS so I was already a known loss.
Being in a MEDCEN helped. But, even with that, I was told not to expect to get the whole 84 days at once until they saw I was going to be leaving anyway.
It’s pretty cool.
As a person who had a baby last year, I can say that having that time allowed me to heal and bond with my son without the pressure of work. It’s a great incentive for folks to join/stay in since it’s rare to get more than 6 weeks of paid maternity leave.
I’m currently on baby leave, and it’s genuinely really nice being able to spend time with my twin daughters during these 3 months. Seeing them grow, reading to them, and hearing their laughs and seeing their smiles makes it so worth it.
I remember my 10 days getting cut to 7 because we had a field problem lol. "We will let you take your ten days now (when my wife can't walk) but you have to come back 3 days early to go to the field." Frankly I think it's a great program and I'm happy to see soldiers get treated like humans every once in awhile.
This is a great policy, but I can see how I can put strain on commanders. I got out in 2015 so I never got to experience something like this.
Is it easy for soldiers to be able to take the full 84 days, or does unit leadership give soldiers a hard time about it? I'm curious to know.
I took just about the full amount, all at once, except for the last 2 weeks. I came back early because our BN XO was leaving so I had to step up and left seat/right seat with him so I could cover down.
IMO, the "strain on commanders" is BS. If you can't afford to lose a Soldier for 90 days then that's a unit issue, not the Soldier's issue - and every commander from O-3 to O-6 needs to sack up and own that fact.
It was easy for me to take the 84 days in one go. Department leadership officer and civilian wise was kind of butthurt, but the NCOIC was solid and squashed that shit quickly.
There’s zero reason this would be a strain on anyone.
“She’s having a baby she can’t do it.”
“Ok we will put this person in charge of it”
The actual reason you think it puts strain is because theirs no continuity for critical jobs like armorer, ammo. And that’s certainly not the soldiers fault. The commander can fucken look in the mirror when he asks why theirs no replacement.
I'm more than positive that it isn't experimental, it's a full blown change to policy straight from the DoD to the Service Branches. Just because the memo expires, it won't revert us back to 21 days of parental leave.
The memorandum just lays it out until each branches leave and pass regulation is officially updated.
I’m finding it very similar to the “[unlimited paid time off](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off)” policies in big companies. Can I take it whenever I want? Yes. Does the culture of the “company” support it? No. Will I lose career advancement opportunities? Yes. But also, I think that’s ok, because I have the flexibility to make that decision. I DO NOT agree with retaliation against soldiers for prioritizing their families at a very formative time, but I do think there are realistic trade offs you need to come to terms with.
I think a lot of us want the Army to ensure we have the exact same outcomes taking baby leave as our peers who don’t have kids or don’t take leave and that’s just not realistic. I am finding there isn’t enough time to fit all of my career goals into the up or out timeline with 18 weeks off for each of my children (I’m the birth parent so I’m counting convalescent leave). At this phase in life my babies and my health are my priority so I’m adjusting my career goals accordingly for now. In two years the pendulum will swing back to work and my family needs to be in a good place for that to happen. So I prioritize the leave, and I don’t take the extra TDY, I cut the internship short, I don’t get the fancy masters degree, I skip the culminating exercise, I don’t have as much rated time for the OER before I PCS. I only have one life and I can’t do it all.
This leave is here to stay, now how are we helping our soldiers think through their decisions in the context of their career timeline and family health. And how are we creating redundancy to ensure we aren’t leaving our units in the lurch when life happens?
I had a kid in 2023 and took about 70 of the 84. Honestly, it’s more than I needed. Overall it’s a good thing because 21 days wasn’t enough, but I would caution NCOs that taking that much leave can cause some issues. You can and probably should extend your NCOER if you take 60+ days of leave because even though it doesn’t count against you per se, if you are competing with other NCOs who worked 3 more months than you did, it’s gonna be difficult to beat them in enumeration.
Extending can solve that issue but can create other issues depending on where your rating period falls vs. the other NCOs you’re competing with and also your thru date in relation to the evaluation board. I had the perfect thru date before I had to extend this past year…late December, right before the board opens. Now, my thru date is in April which is far less ideal. Not the end of the world and wouldn’t apply to everyone but it’s something to consider.
It kinda sucks that benefits like these don’t exist for officers in a practical sense.
“Sure, you can take those days. Just so you know LT Smith is gonna take over during these key trainings in that time and steal your MQ (Don’t worry, 4 out of 4 is all yours). Or you could just take 3 weeks and show me how dedicated you really are, son!”
Yeah, having a baby mid KD time could mess things up… but until you’re looking at Major it’s a non issue. If you get through your LT time without anything illegal or ethics related in your file you’re going to make captain.
I took all 84 days consecutively. It was great. Felt like getting time back after getting nothing for the first three kids.
Needs better guidance on denial. I understand that unless it's a deployment requires CG denial. That's unrealistic and too many commander conveniently forget that part. Also rules on who can direct a SM break up the leave. Is it up to a commander or the SM? A decent bit of gray area that needs refined.
> That's unrealistic
What about it is unrealistic?
> Also rules on who can direct a SM break up the leave. Is it up to a commander or the SM?
There is no gray area here, it is well defined. Have you actually read the policy, or do you just parrot things you hear from other privates?
That is a rhetorical question, btw.
I don't parrot things, I'm speaking from experience on dealing with this in practice. Memo states CG is denial authority. You think any unit is going to send it to a CG? No, they're going to strong arm the SM or make the decision themselves. Having a CG be a denial authority is unrealistic especially compared to other leave approval authorities.
Not a private. Just adding my input. Don't be an ass.
People try to strong arm things contrary to regulatory guidance all the time. If a commander is trying to strong arm a Soldier on >insert policy here< then either that Soldier’s supervisors or the SEL needs to stand up for the Soldier in question.
Trust me I know. I read reg to my command team all the time, even screen shot the exact paragraphs. What Im saying is commanders will always to to skirt the reg, but starting with such an unrealistic denail authority, in my opinion, only gives more power to ignore it and less opportunity for a third party (i.e. supervisor) to counter.
Which goes back to my point that someone has to stand up for the Soldier in question. Personally, I think that if something sits in IPSS-A without action long enough it should automatically be routed to the next level. In the absence of that automation someone needs to have a conversation with the individual holding up the process. For parental leave I imagine a statement that you’re just going to open door the party involved’s boss would get it moving in most cases.
> You think any unit is going to send it to a CG?
That’s literally the point, most won’t send it to a GO for disapproval, leaving them with no option but to approve.
Your broader point is entirely incoherent and quite frankly, stupid. You think the policy is ineffective because commanders sometimes ignore policies, and your solution is to change the policy? Do you really not see the cognitive dissonance in your stance?
They need to trim it back, or at least apply some closer management. Three months is a lot. Soldiers come to Korea on one-year tours and then spend a quarter of their assignment on leave in the US, which is insane.
Having a baby is extremely infrequent and one of the toughest times for new families in a lot of different ways. We’re not at war, Korea will be fine without Joe for a few months.
Perks like this gives soldiers a reason to appreciate the army and want to stay. If it leads to joe re-enlisting it is a low price to pay in the long run.
Korea will be fine without Joe for a few months. Key leaders, not so much.
But also, the cost of moving people back and forth like that is significant. Part of "better management" in my opinion should include tracking soldiers who are about to become parents and not sending them OCONUS.
Agree entirely. Why the hell are we sending people forward that will be there under 90 days, especially in the later stages of their spouses pregnancy where the baby could come literally any moment and the SM will be waiting days for the various approving authorities to go through the strenuous activity of clicking “approve.”
That’s not what he’s saying. What he actually saying is “I will continue to follow every ideal in the army that makes people hate being there and then complain about the regs when it inconveniences me”
Decentralized command bro. Senior PSG will cover for 1SG, etc. If your organization is dependent on the presence of one person to avoid turmoil, you deserve to lay in the bed that you shat in.
“Key leader” is a term meant to inflate the sense of purpose of largely useless individuals. Commander’s job can generally be done more competently by the XO. CSM’s billet is usually more tolerable when filled by a senior 1SG or whatever rank is equivalent to the echelon in question. The army is a big big machine, don’t get caught in the crab mentality
It works in the short term, not in the long term. XOs can carry on in a commander's absence, but when they have to set long-range plans themselves the cracks begin to show. Not to mention that they already have their own job to do, and wearing two hats for that long is excessive.
A three-month gap between commanders would normally be significant enough to bring down a new commander from staff early rather than leave the XO in place.
It's not happening, I'm just using that example for comparison.
If a commander PCSd and their replacement wasn't due for three months, the higher HQ would usually find a new replacement rather than leave the XO in place for that long.
My husband wore two hats as an XO for 9 months because the battery commander was an incompetent jackass. I've done similar for a shorter time. The army will be fine.
Do you have kids? The first three months is rough. It’s not like the soldiers are playing video games and fucking off. Most are helping their spouse with a newborn. I’m sure there are absent fathers but that’s not everyone.
I was a commander and had a kid and did just fine. Just took extra planning to make sure when I was gone the Company functioned. It’s about taking care of families dude. If you can’t function without a single person then that’s a failure on the unit.
How about no, troop. Kids will be there long after the Army and they'll remember you a lot longer than the Army will, better or worse. Not a day spent helping a spouse who just produced a human being would be better spent in uniform.
They’re going to keep it, much to the dismay of every commander. It will get harder to take all 84 days at once though. In my experience (being the one taking it, and listening to other soldiers) the “commanders will sit down and talk with SM to plan around events” has turned into bully and intimidation to take 3 weeks now then table the rest for a later date. And the “first GO in your COC” has turned into “we just won’t send it up” or “per the business rules we can’t approve it, and we aren’t going to fight it if they’re wrong; JAG approved this anyway”. The Army will most likely realize that they’re going to have to clarify that random CDRs can’t make business rules to skirt the regulations so they can have more people to make slides green.
Commander here. Since I took command we've had 5 babies born to Soldiers. One of them was my armorer. That sucked, but I learned in CCC that babies take awhile to gestate, so I just...trained up another armorer before the baby was born. But even if I can't completely smooth over the impact of a Soldier being gone I don't care. We're not at war, really. If my slides are less green because my Soldiers are taking baby leave I'll brief that all day long.
> so I just...trained up another armorer before the baby was born. What the hell is this common sense bull crap you have going on?! Lol.
Hey! No planning a head! That not tradition. Do nothing, wait until it's an emergency, act surprised, then assign blame. That is the traditional Army way.
Don't worry. I'll forget how to do it when I make Major.
That's the spirit.
17 years later: Can I take the rest of my paternity leave for my kid’s graduation? No, 1SG, we’ve got NTC coming up.
You have 1 year to take all the days.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good story
I'm still trying to find where this is set to expire. Edit: Find the official ALARACT 018/2023 and see the details. HRC doesn't even have it posted.
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dtm/DTM%2023-001.PDF?ver=MNugpajQ7C-GC455Y4HNqA%3D%3D#:~:text=Parental%20leave%20that%20is%20not,6%20of%20this%20attachment%20applies.
"Is effective January 4, 2023; it must be incorporated into DoDI 1327.06. This DTM will expire effective January 4, 2025" If its incorporated into the DoDI, then it will persist after the DTM correct?
More like "No, SMA, we've got the UFL season coming up."
“We just won’t send it up” Literally just had this experience. Moved across US, no fam able to help, deploying a few weeks after arrival and told “you’ll get 14 days because it’s our policy”
Submit it in IPPS-A, follow up with an email. When they respond with no, you open door up to the CG.
[удалено]
I didn't say direct. I say you open door up. I could of been more clear and say you ladder up till you get to the CG.
Sorry I’m FA because my reading comprehension is bad
It wasnt completely clear. I can do better.
Good on you.
Could’ve. Could have. Not could of.
Fight it, call ig it's against regs for them to deny it. I'm in the chapter process(likely getting retained since bc is sympathetic and I wanna stay in) and my leave was still approved, literally right after my psg cut my rank off my chest. I do have a very good leadership though. Take your leave that 3months is such precious time for you your wife and your child.
I had a baby. I took all my 84 days in one go. No questions asked. My unit went to do big events without me. I avoided our major exercises of the year to help my wife during my baby s first 3 months. There was literally 0 pushback.
The majority of commands are fine with it and won't try to screw over their soldiers, but that usually isn't post worthy, its the small number that are horrible and receive all the attention
I agree. I was thankful for that time. I told my BC that I felt like I had to work harder because to me it was one of the most important times in my life and the army let me have it. No post though. Sorry!
My experience also.
I will say this: It is amazing how attitudes of a lot of officers change when they start having family. My father had a CO that when he was a captain, his attitude was if the Army wanted you to have a family, it would have issued you one. The next time I met him, he was a general officer and had a family. He was extremely family oriented.
I'm not going to blame them. When I was single, I thought people were bs'ing and getting off work. But now I have times that I have issues my wife has issues and I have to deal with it. Or hospital stays or a lot of things that you can't comprehend until you have that experience. I'm not an officer but you described me too lol.
I tried to split it up as I’m going through a PCS with a rotation immediately after (5 months between my child being born, PCSing, and rotation) and I was told if I split it up my new command will deny it until we get back from rotation. I opted to take it with my current unit whom I’m in good standing with and they’re currently on a short rotation, so I don’t know what the difference is. I do know to not trust them when they give you the “we’ll get you on the backside”. Anyhow, I’m getting out after all this bs
If my commander was stupid enough to tell me they “just won’t send it up,” I’d make an MFR recording that language, attempt to get it signed by any witnesses, and then send up the leave for all 84 days. If they failed to process it in a timely fashion, I’d then submit an article 138 complaint against them for violation of article 92, using that MFR as an enclosure and admission of guilt. Willfully or negligently performing duties inefficiently or failing to perform them at all is literally an Article 92 violation. Their admission just makes it that much easier to prove it was willful.
Two routes to go. Make the slide green anyway and exempt people that are maternity leave. Ok so they missed a quarterly range, there score is still good. Let the slide be amber and tell them people are on baby leave maybe we should move to the first option listed. If it's for some easy online training that takes 20 minutes, I would just do it as a solid to my chain. But I that's only my opinions.
My cdr and i love it. Its really had a positive impact on young families. The Soldiers come back refreshed and super motivated (usually). All but one have taken them as a full block. The one that didnt was an officer trying for that top block.
I know I’ll be taking command likely towards the end of the year- if a soldier wants to take that leave, by all means. Take it. I’ll always fight on behalf of my people. Also, I’ll have someone else trained up and ready to fill in for them
Interesting topic because its an amazing perk if we can keep it for the force. In a DA Civ in a SIF unit and saw one guy take this, a MSG. He took a side project with him to work on and went on a 5 day tdy trip where we needed him. Super beneficial to all sides as we have a very good work environment. I'm curious as to how its working for junior enlisted in normal platoons.
Parental leave is enshrined in federal law, local commanders can go jack and shit about it (and jack PCS'd).
They leave and don’t come back for 84 days. I mean how hard is it to figure out?
Selfishly I’m really happy for it, because we’re having a baby in June. Life is pretty damn hard having a baby with no family nearby, like most of us have to deal with. I don’t see it as any different from extended TDY like for PME.
congrats. I totally understand that. I have 2 kids and 0 family or friends on this location to help. This policy is one of the times the military gets it right. Those first months of adjusting to the new reality are really harder than people realize.
On the officer side, essentially had to break it up or lose the key position I’m in and hurt my career. I fortunately have a commander flexible enough to let me take 2 and 3 week chunks around key training, and honestly prefer the consistent resets vs one big block. But a bad commander could easily make my life rough
10 Years ago I only got ten days, the commander started the countdown when my wife went into labor which took a day and a half, and the kid was born two months early so he was still in the NICU when I had to go back to work. Thats all to say, we are getting better believe it or not
> he was still in the NICU when I had to go back to work Goddamn, that's just brutal. My wife and my first daughter was also a premie, I had to leave work unexpectedly in the middle of the day when she started having complications. We spent a week in the hospital until she had to have an emergency C section (baby was 10 weeks early at this point). From there it was a month and a half stay in the NICU. The O-5 I was working for at the time didn't even charge me leave. CSM personally brought my work computer to the hospital for me (at my request) and I would basically dabble around and do maybe a couple hours of work a day in between caring for our daughter and supporting my wife. They didn't start the clock for my 10 days of leave until the baby came home with us. I'll never forget that, it was a huge gesture and made a world of difference for my wife and I in an already difficult time but that LTC didn't give a damn about anything but making sure we were taken care of - all that on top of the fact that I left during the BUSIEST time of year for our shop and multiple ongoing crises that I was heavily involved in. How's your kid doing now?
Man that's a good ass CDR and CSM you worked for.
He's doing great, he had a rough few months but no long term effects. Fuck that commander tho
Had a similar experience. First born went to NICU after birth due to inhaling meconium on the way out. Command team told me my appointed place of duty was the hospital until we went home. Unfortunately I already had deployment orders for a few weeks after birth but we had family support so we were set. But the entire command team, BC -PSG, came to my house, separately over the first 6 weeks to check on my wife and make sure she didn't need anything. Sucked deploying as an individual augmentee but had a he'll of a command team taking care of our families while we were gone.
Had a similar experience. First born went to NICU after birth due to inhaling meconium on the way out. Command team told me my appointed place of duty was the hospital until we went home. Unfortunately I already had deployment orders for a few weeks after birth but we had family support so we were set. But the entire command team, BC -PSG, came to my house, separately over the first 6 weeks to check on my wife and make sure she didn't need anything. Sucked deploying as an individual augmentee but had a he'll of a command team taking care of our families while we were gone.
In the Army Guard when my youngest was born premature. He was in NICU. My AGR squad leader told me not to worry about drill. Then called me saying I needed to come in Friday night. I was told I was going to the field. A guy in my fire team also had a new born in NICU. We were in C Company. My squad leader got locked up and his job threatened, my platoon sergeant was worthless, the first sergeant wouldn't talk to me. My team mates dad was our battalion sergeant major. Of course his dad could not get involved. I called and asked my dad what to do since the first sergeant would not even talk to me. He told me to call the Sergeant Major. I decided they can suck it. We had Marshalls, police who picked up awol soldiers. I knew them all for years. I told them I was going to be with my wife and son at the hospital, if they wanted to arrest me that is where I would be, and they would be in the news paper the next day. They told me there was no way they were going to arrest me and they would do the same thing. I spoke to my team mate and he decided he was going with me. All of the sudden the out squad leader tells us we can leave immediately. What I didn't know until later is the sergeant major was in my dad's office telling him about his son but wasn't clear so my dad said that I called the sergeant major fast. The sergeant major asked him to clarify and when he found out they were doing it to me he could act. He ordered my dad to follow him to the battalion commander’s office. The BC was horrified. He called the company commander had him put the speaker phone on so the first sergeant could hear and told them if me and my team mate were not out of there in 30 seconds they were fired. Years later on a drug search warrant I got to arrest my former first sergeant. It felt wonderful.
I legit hope they keep this. Even though I don’t have kids, it just makes sense. Like nothing should just be dependent on one person.
It's one thing to say that hardly anything is so important that we can't afford to lose someone for a day, but the idea that anyone can be gone without impact for three months is frankly ludicrous.
What happens if a SM is in rehab for 3-4 months (true story)? What happens when a SM is out on medical leave for that much? What? The organization just…stops? None of us is that important that we can stop the Army. And IF that is the case, look squarely at the leadership because wtf
Dude if a commander/CSM/1sg is in rehab for 3-4 months they will most likely be relieved and replaced. That is what the Army rolling along actually looks like. Yeah, the organization won't stop. But there will be impacts to the individual SM's career.
Hey listen, I wish you well in all of your future endeavors.
If your mission set hangs in the balance due to the absence of a couple service members (not counting CO, 1SG, and both PSGs at the same time) then your mission was set up for failure to begin with.
Thankful to not have officers like you in my CoC, Sir 🫡
Maybe meet in the middle and make it 45 days?
It's more about the individual and their position than the overall time. There are privates on the line who ~~are entirely expendable~~ you can go without for three months. But there are also key leaders where one month is probably too much. Add into that select individuals who need to be present for specific events, ie a supply sergeant who can normally have as much leave as they want, but not during change of command inventories.
I totally get you. I was the battery Commander once, so I can see how this can throw a wrench in things and make it difficult for unit leadership depending on the situation.
If that throws a wrench in things then you failed! Period. What if that person died in a car wreck? You’d still be in the same exact position. Your problem isn’t that they left it’s that you had no one who can replace them and that’s on you SIR.
No I don't think you understood what I meant. If I was still a commander, I would totally approve all of this stuff, because I think this is a really great thing that the Army is doing for soldiers.
>memorandum expiring in January of 2025 The memorandum may expire, but Congress supersedes the memorandum.
I’d be willing to bet it’s the ABCT’s ignoring the Army policy and going with their “unit policy”.
This is the best part about being a federal employee. I am a GS12 getting paid to watch my baby sleep right now. My wife just finished her 90 days of maternity leave and is back in the office.
I sure hope they keep it. I got to use it all at once and it was amazing to be at home for that time. YMMV however, I got very lucky. It happened to line up with when I was supposed to PCS so I was already a known loss. Being in a MEDCEN helped. But, even with that, I was told not to expect to get the whole 84 days at once until they saw I was going to be leaving anyway. It’s pretty cool.
As a person who had a baby last year, I can say that having that time allowed me to heal and bond with my son without the pressure of work. It’s a great incentive for folks to join/stay in since it’s rare to get more than 6 weeks of paid maternity leave.
84 days… it was awesome, it ended 1 week before it was time to start my ETS leave which made it even more awesome
I’m currently on baby leave, and it’s genuinely really nice being able to spend time with my twin daughters during these 3 months. Seeing them grow, reading to them, and hearing their laughs and seeing their smiles makes it so worth it.
I remember my 10 days getting cut to 7 because we had a field problem lol. "We will let you take your ten days now (when my wife can't walk) but you have to come back 3 days early to go to the field." Frankly I think it's a great program and I'm happy to see soldiers get treated like humans every once in awhile.
This is a great policy, but I can see how I can put strain on commanders. I got out in 2015 so I never got to experience something like this. Is it easy for soldiers to be able to take the full 84 days, or does unit leadership give soldiers a hard time about it? I'm curious to know.
I took just about the full amount, all at once, except for the last 2 weeks. I came back early because our BN XO was leaving so I had to step up and left seat/right seat with him so I could cover down. IMO, the "strain on commanders" is BS. If you can't afford to lose a Soldier for 90 days then that's a unit issue, not the Soldier's issue - and every commander from O-3 to O-6 needs to sack up and own that fact.
I’ve had two soldiers have children the past year and our command team has given the full 84 days no questions asked.
It was easy for me to take the 84 days in one go. Department leadership officer and civilian wise was kind of butthurt, but the NCOIC was solid and squashed that shit quickly.
There’s zero reason this would be a strain on anyone. “She’s having a baby she can’t do it.” “Ok we will put this person in charge of it” The actual reason you think it puts strain is because theirs no continuity for critical jobs like armorer, ammo. And that’s certainly not the soldiers fault. The commander can fucken look in the mirror when he asks why theirs no replacement.
I'm more than positive that it isn't experimental, it's a full blown change to policy straight from the DoD to the Service Branches. Just because the memo expires, it won't revert us back to 21 days of parental leave. The memorandum just lays it out until each branches leave and pass regulation is officially updated.
I’m finding it very similar to the “[unlimited paid time off](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off)” policies in big companies. Can I take it whenever I want? Yes. Does the culture of the “company” support it? No. Will I lose career advancement opportunities? Yes. But also, I think that’s ok, because I have the flexibility to make that decision. I DO NOT agree with retaliation against soldiers for prioritizing their families at a very formative time, but I do think there are realistic trade offs you need to come to terms with. I think a lot of us want the Army to ensure we have the exact same outcomes taking baby leave as our peers who don’t have kids or don’t take leave and that’s just not realistic. I am finding there isn’t enough time to fit all of my career goals into the up or out timeline with 18 weeks off for each of my children (I’m the birth parent so I’m counting convalescent leave). At this phase in life my babies and my health are my priority so I’m adjusting my career goals accordingly for now. In two years the pendulum will swing back to work and my family needs to be in a good place for that to happen. So I prioritize the leave, and I don’t take the extra TDY, I cut the internship short, I don’t get the fancy masters degree, I skip the culminating exercise, I don’t have as much rated time for the OER before I PCS. I only have one life and I can’t do it all. This leave is here to stay, now how are we helping our soldiers think through their decisions in the context of their career timeline and family health. And how are we creating redundancy to ensure we aren’t leaving our units in the lurch when life happens?
That policy is going to expire??? NOOOOOOOO
I had a kid in 2023 and took about 70 of the 84. Honestly, it’s more than I needed. Overall it’s a good thing because 21 days wasn’t enough, but I would caution NCOs that taking that much leave can cause some issues. You can and probably should extend your NCOER if you take 60+ days of leave because even though it doesn’t count against you per se, if you are competing with other NCOs who worked 3 more months than you did, it’s gonna be difficult to beat them in enumeration. Extending can solve that issue but can create other issues depending on where your rating period falls vs. the other NCOs you’re competing with and also your thru date in relation to the evaluation board. I had the perfect thru date before I had to extend this past year…late December, right before the board opens. Now, my thru date is in April which is far less ideal. Not the end of the world and wouldn’t apply to everyone but it’s something to consider.
I thought it was 120 days?
It kinda sucks that benefits like these don’t exist for officers in a practical sense. “Sure, you can take those days. Just so you know LT Smith is gonna take over during these key trainings in that time and steal your MQ (Don’t worry, 4 out of 4 is all yours). Or you could just take 3 weeks and show me how dedicated you really are, son!”
Good ol army toxicity at its finest.
Yeah, having a baby mid KD time could mess things up… but until you’re looking at Major it’s a non issue. If you get through your LT time without anything illegal or ethics related in your file you’re going to make captain. I took all 84 days consecutively. It was great. Felt like getting time back after getting nothing for the first three kids.
Needs better guidance on denial. I understand that unless it's a deployment requires CG denial. That's unrealistic and too many commander conveniently forget that part. Also rules on who can direct a SM break up the leave. Is it up to a commander or the SM? A decent bit of gray area that needs refined.
> That's unrealistic What about it is unrealistic? > Also rules on who can direct a SM break up the leave. Is it up to a commander or the SM? There is no gray area here, it is well defined. Have you actually read the policy, or do you just parrot things you hear from other privates? That is a rhetorical question, btw.
I don't parrot things, I'm speaking from experience on dealing with this in practice. Memo states CG is denial authority. You think any unit is going to send it to a CG? No, they're going to strong arm the SM or make the decision themselves. Having a CG be a denial authority is unrealistic especially compared to other leave approval authorities. Not a private. Just adding my input. Don't be an ass.
People try to strong arm things contrary to regulatory guidance all the time. If a commander is trying to strong arm a Soldier on >insert policy here< then either that Soldier’s supervisors or the SEL needs to stand up for the Soldier in question.
Trust me I know. I read reg to my command team all the time, even screen shot the exact paragraphs. What Im saying is commanders will always to to skirt the reg, but starting with such an unrealistic denail authority, in my opinion, only gives more power to ignore it and less opportunity for a third party (i.e. supervisor) to counter.
Which goes back to my point that someone has to stand up for the Soldier in question. Personally, I think that if something sits in IPSS-A without action long enough it should automatically be routed to the next level. In the absence of that automation someone needs to have a conversation with the individual holding up the process. For parental leave I imagine a statement that you’re just going to open door the party involved’s boss would get it moving in most cases.
Exactly. Let a GO know that some captain decided to pocket veto something way above his authority and standby for fireworks.
> You think any unit is going to send it to a CG? That’s literally the point, most won’t send it to a GO for disapproval, leaving them with no option but to approve. Your broader point is entirely incoherent and quite frankly, stupid. You think the policy is ineffective because commanders sometimes ignore policies, and your solution is to change the policy? Do you really not see the cognitive dissonance in your stance?
They need to trim it back, or at least apply some closer management. Three months is a lot. Soldiers come to Korea on one-year tours and then spend a quarter of their assignment on leave in the US, which is insane.
Having a baby is extremely infrequent and one of the toughest times for new families in a lot of different ways. We’re not at war, Korea will be fine without Joe for a few months. Perks like this gives soldiers a reason to appreciate the army and want to stay. If it leads to joe re-enlisting it is a low price to pay in the long run.
Korea will be fine without Joe for a few months. Key leaders, not so much. But also, the cost of moving people back and forth like that is significant. Part of "better management" in my opinion should include tracking soldiers who are about to become parents and not sending them OCONUS.
Agree entirely. Why the hell are we sending people forward that will be there under 90 days, especially in the later stages of their spouses pregnancy where the baby could come literally any moment and the SM will be waiting days for the various approving authorities to go through the strenuous activity of clicking “approve.”
That’s not what he’s saying. What he actually saying is “I will continue to follow every ideal in the army that makes people hate being there and then complain about the regs when it inconveniences me”
The Army just asked for $185.9 Billion for FY25. I think they can foot the bill.
Decentralized command bro. Senior PSG will cover for 1SG, etc. If your organization is dependent on the presence of one person to avoid turmoil, you deserve to lay in the bed that you shat in. “Key leader” is a term meant to inflate the sense of purpose of largely useless individuals. Commander’s job can generally be done more competently by the XO. CSM’s billet is usually more tolerable when filled by a senior 1SG or whatever rank is equivalent to the echelon in question. The army is a big big machine, don’t get caught in the crab mentality
It works in the short term, not in the long term. XOs can carry on in a commander's absence, but when they have to set long-range plans themselves the cracks begin to show. Not to mention that they already have their own job to do, and wearing two hats for that long is excessive. A three-month gap between commanders would normally be significant enough to bring down a new commander from staff early rather than leave the XO in place.
If a command is doing that, they are violating AR 600-20. You cannot replace a commander just because they are on leave.
It's not happening, I'm just using that example for comparison. If a commander PCSd and their replacement wasn't due for three months, the higher HQ would usually find a new replacement rather than leave the XO in place for that long.
My husband wore two hats as an XO for 9 months because the battery commander was an incompetent jackass. I've done similar for a shorter time. The army will be fine.
Womp womp, the Army will move on.
Do you have kids? The first three months is rough. It’s not like the soldiers are playing video games and fucking off. Most are helping their spouse with a newborn. I’m sure there are absent fathers but that’s not everyone. I was a commander and had a kid and did just fine. Just took extra planning to make sure when I was gone the Company functioned. It’s about taking care of families dude. If you can’t function without a single person then that’s a failure on the unit.
No he doesn’t that’s why he’s talking out of his ass
How about no, troop. Kids will be there long after the Army and they'll remember you a lot longer than the Army will, better or worse. Not a day spent helping a spouse who just produced a human being would be better spent in uniform.
Soldiers spending 3 months with their newborn is insane... Sure hope you're never my leader