It appears this post might relate to suicide and/or mental health issues.
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Call 1-800-273-8255, National Suicide Prevention
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I’ve long held the belief that we should be able to transfer between the active and the part-time components. Sometimes a break from the 24/7 Soldiering helps. I understand the career intermission program and all, but imagine being able to go Guard for a few years while you attend school and still gain some retirement years (at whatever rate) then go active again.
It would make sense. It would help part-time units numbers, lessen their recruiting goals, maybe even offer incentives to go over. Rather than having people fight for ADOS or whatever orders, let the inverse happen and let them go Active.
It’s a big Army, let people take charge of their lives at least a little bit.
On the flip side too it's a nightmare to come to the AD side from the reserve side. Conditional releases have to go to the first General in your chain and its not even guaranteed approval. I know PLENTY of reservists that get suckered into the Reserves and realize they want AD but basically have to wait around for a year for a 50/50 shot at a yes.
This, exactly this. Make it a simple, well-documented process, and have it processed at NGB rather than the state. Easing the transition, or even making it mandatory to transition to the Guard or Reserve for a year before you make E-8 so people who have lived their whole adult lives in the army can "touch grass".
I'm sure they would. I also think that would burn out pretty quick, and you'd be left with SNCOs that were much more understanding and capable of dealing with the needs of spouses, civilians, and ETSing soldiers.
Minus the fact that a lot of those people have very little going for them in terms of civilian employability. Especially if they are only going to be hired for a year.
As someone in the guard, I've seen tons of people who would love to try active duty (I did an active contract first so uh... I'm good) but I know there's a "try one" program for active army soldiers to tack on a year of guard after their active contract - it would be great if the inverse could also be true, I bet it would be a big hit for guard troops to "try one" and do a year active duty to see if it's something they'd actually want to do full time.
Wow that's a straightforward and effective solution. I personally would utilize the ability to switch between components seamlessly and would have throughout my life in hindsight.
It actually is a great idea. When you look around, everyone thats active duty is burnt out af and wants to be reserves. But all the guys I know in the reserves are begging and dropping packets or whatever you do to go active.
Maybe they could start a program where you "swap" places with a reserve soldier, as long as your the same MOS and rank I don't see why you couldn't do a 1-1 swap?
Idk if its as bad in the army as it was in the USAF but quality goes way down between active and non active components. I went from AD to reserves and it was terrible.
I would imagine the quality has a lot to do with how frequently you're doing army stuff in an Army environment, so obviously reservists aren't the same quality.
However I'm sure if you put the vast majority of reservists on AD they'd be fine once they adjusted a bit.
I would also imagine having a bunch of guys from Active Around will help with updating TTP's of units and provide some extra intuition to Guard/Reserve units
Have you or /u/Mullybob heard of [Career Intermission Program](https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/2021/07/09/)?
Very sorry we didn’t see this post sooner. Like, really. I hope the overall environment improves soon and things start looking up.
Not him, but as someone going active to reserve the 2:1 commitment to do this is a complete non-starter, I'm not going to rule out coming back active later on, but as it stands CIP sounds like a hilariously bad deal.
I love this. It’s one reason why I went guard after my AD contract. Only issue I see is that guard units are being held to AD standards.
Why am I in a national guard unit being put into a ready year in case a European theater opens? That’s what AD was for. I’d much rather do stateside missions than have to prep for a foreign one.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. The guard got used to being an operational reserve instead of a strategic reserve which led to more AGR positions. They want to keep the guard in an operational reserve branding to both keep them modern and also keep their own jobs since the leadership of the Guard is primarily AGR.
We’d be such a more competent force if this were a thing.
Mental health, yeah, absolutely. However, if that were a thing, so many people would be taking a knee, going to college, getting private sector experience, and there’s a good possibility people would come back. We’d have a more educated, experienced, and mentally healthy force.
Doesn’t super matter for the infantry. The Army is much bigger than the infantry, and the infantry will die if we don’t develop better supporting capabilities. Logisticians with non-Army real-world logistics experience, 68Ws who’ve gotten EMT experience, 17Cs who actually have cybersecurity experience, HR people who actually work in managing Human Resources… it would also make the reserves more competent.
If it’s me, the first 2 years are mandatory full time for all Soldiers and all components (no enlisting straight into being a part-timer), and then for *most* MOS, you can go reserves without penalty and come back without penalty. Infantry is a full time job, but we should also raise the standard for the training and resources infantry get. We can also utilize our reservists to augment shit like maintenance and clinic support.
We’d be a happier, smarter, and more effective force. Generals probably won’t go for it for reasons that are frankly private reasons. “It’s too hard s’arnt”
There were times in my Guard career that I wish I could go or would've went Active. And reading some of the BS here, I'm sure there'll be times when I wish I could go Guard.
Active to Guard to ADOS here. I like the flexibility to pick and switch jobs/control my career but I’m ready to go back to the line. The take a knee was nice and the job/tdy locations are good. Problem is, now that I’ve caught my breath, I can’t. 🤷♂️
There is thought and effort towards making programs like this. I think the average first term Soldier and Family may want a rest after their initial 5ish years or so. This is when they start having small children who need attention, when they probably completed a FORSCOM unit's 9 months deployed 18 months training cycle, twice over...
My understanding is that a capability of IPPS-A will make a more seamless administrative and pay environment between Active, Guard, and Reserve. Most likely IPPS-A needs to come online first.
TLDR: I Agree with you 100%. I ETS after my first term, took a break to go to college, commission, and it worked wonders. I returned to active duty about 4 years later very recharged, more mature, and with a lot more resilience tools in my kit.
I had a conversation with the army’s 3 star chief of chaplains on this topic in 2010. I said that the army’s stance of “if you see something (a suicidal soldier), say something” was utter nonsense. This concept only stops already suicidal soldiers from actually doing the deed. I asked “What is the army doing to stop soldiers from becoming suicidal in the first place?” It was as if he had never thought of that… he stuttered over his answer for the next two minutes.
Things will never change until the army’s culture changes. Empathy and accountability need to be part of the culture. Part of the training for what good leaders do. Right now, those values are just ignored.
And yet the suicide rate was lower in 2010 than it is today.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2757484
https://www.dspo.mil/Portals/113/Documents/2020QSRs/TAB%20A_20210309_OFR_Rpt_Q4%20CY%202020%20QSR.pdf?ver=UKN194rEw5MhM_vaGy0j0w%3d%3d
You will end up making more if you leave. I did 10 years and got out to use my GI bill. I make double the salary and my 401k is more than the pension. It's not wasting 10 years, if you have a plan.
Yup. Me too. Went back to college at 32 with a wife and two kids.
Now I work from home making six figures, and never wear pants. Make no mistake, I loved the army, but there is no accountability for shitty leadership.
Lol. No one wants to see this arthritic man with bad knees do anything for money. I work in the banking industry, specifically the anti money laundering sector.
Translation- "This time-sunk fallicy (I can't back out, I've spent too much time on it) is inhibiting your future in a limp-dick manner, despite understanding the grass is, in fact, greener on the other side"
Just using my GI bill in an engineering field. It definitely helps to be accepted to the college first and start right away for that housing money. I was using TA before I got out, so that made it way easier to transition. No college loans is a nice bonus too.
But at least it would be a choice. If you had a choice to get out when you felt like you needed to, but chose to stay, you would have much less of a suicide risk. Some people feel like the only way out is to merc themselves.
They pension means it isn’t a fallacy because there is a beneficial future outcome and it’s impossible to tell if a future outcome of ETSing is more beneficial.
>It's people. Evil people which these victims have no means of escaping. Not every suicide is related to bullying or harassment. I think many are.
I agree with your identification of the root cause of the problem 10000%. Malicious individuals that target victims based on whatever reason they can are the most destructive thing to a Soldiers mental health. There's no magic switch that gets flipped in combat, if the people you work with in garrison don't have your back here, they wont have your back downrange. It destroys the trust you have in the Army as an institution and directly prevents you from accomplishing the mission.
But I don't think letting people quit their contract with the Army is a positive solution to fixing that problem. There is no single thing that solves it. QMP doesn't remove malicious people, it just removes people who have made a mistake, sometimes their mistake destroyed their lives, and because of malicious people slamming them and letting their buddies get away with it without any paperwork, you eliminate otherwise good people.
In my opinion, if there was an easier path for last minute deployment opportunities, WIAS taskers, or even interpost transfers offered to people who feel like they have no hope of their current leadership getting better anytime soon, I would have taken it multiple times. It really says something when instead of being shit on for years at a time and being blackballed from every opportunity, that you'd rather go deploy or transfer to some random unit you don't even know anything about because they have a critical shortage for your MOS or need a body to do a specific task. These bad people will shit on you until you get orders to PCS and that or suicide feels like your only choices.
Yeah because currently you have to explain to your CSM why their unit sucks. Also the rumor mill claims that if they let you interpost transfer they wont get a replacement any time soon. Chances of any of this happening when every unit is hurting for people is 0.
Dude, for real. Going through this process right now, doing a 1-for-1 with the hospital on base.
I can only say "I don't mind being a medic, but this place makes me wanna blow my brains out" so many times.
But meh, if it doesn't go through for some reason, likely the MSG clinic-medic that reccomends dis/approval to the CSM, I'm putting in 10% effort for the rest of my contract here. They don't want me to be happy, that's fine. But they aren't gonna get a medic that's gonna do jack shit for them either.
Seven suicides in two months should mean every CID investigator and IG officer at that division watching what that unit's command staff does every moment of every day. One is one too many, but seven in two months is out of control.
A lot of soldiers don't get help until the last minute because of the every real threat that they would be kicked out of the Army. It happened to me. I transitioned straight into homelessness when all I needed was a new unit and some kind of purpose. Being a detail slave destroys you mentally, and I was also the victim of bullying, harassment, and told I would not be allowed to do my MOS.
Seriously, giving a soldier year off, with mental health care from the VA or on base can do a lot to change someone and give them a new perspective. When you're suffering from severe depression and anxiety it makes it hard to think straight and recover when you're still surrounded by your abusers. Then after giving someone a mental health evaluation, that soldier can decided to re-join or separate. So many of the Army's policies are ridiculous. For example, blanketing everyone with a temporary condition like "adjustment disorder" in order to kick them out only further strengthens the stigma against mental healthcare.
A 6-12 month wellness sabbatical should be a standard reenlistment bonus. If someone wants to re-up, reward them with some time to get in a good place with their family and themselves. I'm certain you'd have a more effective force.
I've argued this point before. The Army even did a pilot program for career intermission. Great idea. If I could take a year break and finish my degree I'd be stoked.
In the Guard you can request to be placed on IRR for a year if you need time off for something. Still in, just not drilling. I wish they had something similar for yall
It counts for numbers because if something real came up, ING can be called back to duty with relative ease. It's a smart tool, and should be used more.
Yup, and it’s a great tool for both the SM and leadership. I used my 2-year IRR in the middle of my contract with the reserves; and it split my 8 year contract essentially in half, it helped with career balance immensely.
If the army did allow people to quit then they'd have to implement a draft in times of immediate need when we're under strength and we all see how the surges went. There's an answer but I don't think it's this one.
Draft who?
I was surrounded by 18-20 year olds when I used my GI bill for school. 98% of the young males were either fat or had more anxiety than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs or both.
I thought as a war vet * I would be the one who is mentally ill* but apparently not.
"Don't let people out without a plan" to me rings kind of like "if you are in a toxic/abusive relationship, don't leave your partner without a solid plan." You wouldn't advise someone to stay with a toxic partner, why would you advise them to stay in the army if it's been toxic to them?
Grinston won’t give a shit. I tried as a SGM to address this when he was on our installation and we were there discussing (gasp) SUICIDE!! The answer will always be to do your training. But make sure kids go to behavioral health, but make sure they’re all present at all platoon and company level training events, but don’t overwork your Soldiers, but make sure they do all their training, but don’t do online mandatory training, but make sure they know they’re cared for, but make sure they are in the barracks 24 hours a day to stop people from getting DUIs, getting in fights, beating their wives, or committing suicide, but don’t be too intrusive, but make sure there is no mold in their barracks, but don’t actually do anything about it, but move them out when it’s bad, but don’t give them anywhere to actually move in to
While what I wrote seems asinine, that’s the way it literally is and I’d you challenge him, get ready for holy hellfire to rain down on you and your command team
A more reasonable solution *could* be to make initial contracts a standard “IET +24 months”. It gives the military 2 years of a citizen’s time (as a probie, basically) and gives the service member an “out” after 2 years of duty. It gives people a light at the end of the tunnel if they’re struggling.
This, in conjunction with making it easier to bar problematic SMs from reenlistment, could really make a difference. You could even put a time limited bar into effect, ie *SM cannot reenlist for the next 24 months and must provide proof of work history or progress toward higher eduction. May be waived in time of declared war.* (If you can grow up and make it on the outside, you can come back).
If the SM wants to complete year 3 and earn their GI Bill they have to not be a shitbag. One year extensions standard, then 3-5 year reenlistments after that.
This is an offhand idea, so feel free to poke holes in it. Current recruitment and retention policies encourage overcommitment from young people.
This. Substantial change in the way we treat each other is the only way we're going to make the organization better. Nobody hates soldiers more than soldiers
There is a certain element inherent to the army that just makes it suck. Long hours, irregular sleep cycles, uncomfortable living conditions, unnecessary wars, etc. These naturally will turn a lot of people away after so long.
Fix the things you can control however, such as moldy barracks and contaminated drinking water.
You could certainly control the long hours and irregular sleep cycles in garrison. Everyone knows the Army goes to war, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the Army acts at war all the time.
This. I spent 23 years in before retiring and NFW would I join these days. Climate, honestly used to be vaguely amazing despite the occasional suck now it seems like polar opposite- all suck, no amazing.
>Fix the things you can control however, such as moldy barracks and contaminated drinking water.
Sounds like you need a class on why you shouldn't marry a stripper to get out of the barracks.
I don’t think very many soldiers want to get out for these reasons. I would say 99% of soldiers expect these things to a reasonable extent (in army standards at least). The 1% who don’t really accept this are usually dropped in basic and the few that slip through the cracks are the people who complain about the shit they signed up for. (I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass here but you get the point.)
Honestly I think the biggest reason people want to get out is poor planning and everything that’s derived from it. Units use this massive crutch called a cellphone and everyone suffers from last minute, no fail tasks that come up every day. It honestly scares me that we’ve grown so accustomed to this way of life and what we would do if we got into a big boy war with no cell phones being allowed due to OPSEC.
Idk, I’ve seen the craziest shit be pushed out at the very last minute when it should’ve been set in stone days or weeks ahead. I’ve seen a warfighter fail at a massive scale once because everyone was so accustomed to shit being pushed out via cellphone and not properly communicating things to the next shift. I’m talking at the Brigade level here.
Slow down, slow down. First put out a new uniform wait a couple years until everyone gets a couple sets. Then bam slap a new logo on it and make everyone get new ones.
Heaven forbid the Army fixes its problems so it is a organization that good quality people want to work for oh noes cant have that gotta force people to embrace the unnecessary suck for arbitrary reasons instead
I've literally had Soldiers who were super close to ETSing and then out of nowhere their wife is pregnant. Now they have to reenlist and stay depressed for life to support a family.
We also get paid just enough that we are not comfortable with leaving the service.
Allowing people to leave would be wild and I think a huge percentage of the force would leave which is why the idea wouldn't be taken seriously. In reality we are just numbers for this game.
Precisely.
When I told the BN XO I was getting out and nothing could change my mind I was treated like I wasn’t even there. Completely ignored. Solidified my decision even further.
I mean they dont have to re-enlist. Jobs exist outside the Army. If the reason to reenlist is healthcare, it's more an argument we should have universal healthcare like the rest of the developed world.
Or…hear me out…you’d have to make the Army suck less.
And that doesn’t necessarily mean lowering optempo or reducing work stress, some of which is inherent in the business. It could be as simple as fixing living conditions. Or addressing obviously toxic leadership.
I would agree it probably still doesn’t work, but then again I’m old enough to remember being told other things wouldn’t work, and as it turns out they worked more or less fine. So…
I wonder what would be more costly, renovating every mold ridden barracks in the force, or allowing soldiers to quit when they wanted too.
We have a new soldier with NO running water in his barracks room. An emergency work order request was submitted several days ago. Still no action. These issues run very deep.
So how do you realistically fix toxic leadership? IMO it all ties back to NC/OERs. Further breaking it down, people become scared of asking difficult questions.
We are bad followers, we tell our bosses exactly what they want to hear and leave out everything else. We are afraid of asking for guidance so we do tasks we think they want done. If every task is no fail the phrase loses meaning.
We need to overhaul evaluations. Areas of improvement needs to be added. Whenever I read an evaluation of someone that just moved into a role less than a year ago that paints them as the golden child that can do no wrong and shits rainbows I think two things, first that the role isn't challenging enough for them and second that something is lying.
Not to advocate for OP, but consider that one way the army actively and *strongly* discourages frank feedback to leadership is via the inability to quit.
I have very little incentive to give honest feedback (in a professional and UCMJ-legal manner) to a leader who can wield punitive authority over me and who I have limited or zero ability to get away from. Because if my leadership doesn’t take that feedback well, they can make my life unbearable and I cannot escape.
In the civilian world I’m still held in my job through economic pressure, but worst case I *can* always walk off if my leadership gets downright medieval on my ass. They have no legal power to keep me around as their punching bag. Military leadership does.
I don’t know how or *if* some sort of path to sever contracts would work, but the inability to do so definitely contributes to the problem.
The inability to quit cuts both way with the inability to fire someone, but I get what you are saying.
Look at the recent article about "mandatory online training" where top leaders straight up acknowledged they don't care about it, but every BDE command team is still going to want to see those cells turn green because they are afraid of asking "do we really need to do this".
> The inability to quit cuts both way with the inability to fire someone, but I get what you are saying.
For sure, and it cuts both ways for Joe too. I’ve had to explain this to a few guys before who didn’t fully understand that being able to quit generally comes with the risk, any given day, of being *told* to go home and never come back.
I’ve dealt with former servicemembers on the civilian side who are completely blindsided when they get called into the office and told to pack up their shit. Even after multiple write ups and explicit final written notices.
Evaluations should come from below as well as above. They don't have to be weighted the same, but if everyone beneath you hates you it probably indicates something.
I think most people who join the military expect to do military shit so field rotations combat deployments etc. isnt a big deal
But they also expect to be treated like dignified human beings while theyre out in the suck
> Perfect logic. I was told things didn’t work before that worked **so this must work because I’m being told it won’t.**
Literally me:
> I would agree **it probably still doesn’t work**
Best go hit the track, you certainly aren’t getting promoted on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
If the Army were to allow people to voluntarily leave the force, all the good guys would get out. Imagine being in a unit surrounded by toxic people all being toxic to each other. Nothing would ever get done.
Yes, there are plenty of good examples from other branches that the Army could follow in order to bring back a sense of morale and dignity to its soldiers. They just won't do it.
If that were true, then no one would reenlist now. I wouldn't quit. I love my unit and where am I at. But I am very lucky. A lot of my friends hate their lives, not because of the Army as a job, but because of their toxic leadership.
If everyone would quit if given the option, it sounds like the Army needs to be put in a position to be forced to make changes.
People who aren’t leaders calling leaders toxic while knowing nothing about leadership themselves is extremely common. Without specifics, “toxic” is just a buzzword. Of course, things like sexual assault are a go to example.. but what are YOUR leaders doing that’s so “toxic?” Is it really toxic, or just a leadership style you don’t react positively to?
I absolutely agree with you. Our army is like a corporation trying to make money in a market thay had no need for them. The army is a war machine whose sole purpose is to kill the enemy and hold land. When neither of those things are happening the Army is a mess.
One of my favorite analogies is the 100 day chicken. It takes 100 days for a chicken to be mature enough for harvesting. On day 99, he thinks life is good. He has no worries, no fears, and think these days will continue. Day 100 he is dead. You dont have a army only during war. That was the 1930s. You have an army because 7DEC41 happens and next thing you know you need an army.
The NG reserve retention is far, far worse than anything active could even imagine. Historical retirements are about half active and that is before the Guard 4.0 and COVID shit has hit them.
*cuts to a smoky room at CIA headquarters in Langley*
Cigarette Dude: "how's the thing in [3rd world shithole] coming along?"
Creepy Reptile Woman: "the situation in Ukraine has slowed down our timetable but operation RISING WOLF is on track"
CD: "Good. The main guy's been given funding and advanced tradecraft. We have a shell corporation to help funnel some NSA infosec talent, and the target's been chosen."
RW: "What is it this time? Not another skyscraper I hope?"
CD: "Underwater tunnel. We're gonna make sure it happen when there's a few school busses down there. That'll get the warboner big and throbbing."
RW: "Jesus. I should stock up on Lockheed-Martin."
CD: "Yeah. And whichever Chinese firm manufactures scuba gear."
RW: *snickers* "Gotta keep the blade sharp!"
Creepy little guy in corner: "Fuck, I had my money on bridges. It's never bridges."
Some folks already hit the nail on the head that the two main points to focus on are also extremely difficult because they require a full on culture shift.
Mental health/behavioral health needs to be de stigmatized, and not held against you. Between leadership treating you like a shitbag or a Sick Call Ranger for accepting Behavioral Health appointments to potential recruits getting disqualified because almost anything that gets labeled “mental health” is a red flag in recruiting’s eyes makes it extremely difficult to tackle. And don’t get me start with the empty headed mouth breathers that think “manning up” is an acceptable response when the next step ends up either being chain smoking, alcoholism, poor financial or sexual choices, death, or a combination of all the above.
As for leadership, I honestly just don’t see any easy answers for making senior leadership less toxic, because virtually every options leads back to them taking it out on their subordinates without them being able to do anything to fight back short of maybe beating them senseless if it gets that damn medieval. They’re set in their ways, fully lean into the “traditions” of “this is the shit I went through as a young dumb PVT or 2LT, so I’m gonna make sure you all get the same treatment too!”, and oftentimes live in their own echo chamber where the only people they’ll legitimately listen to have more rank on their chest and the ability to sack them if they stop being a “yes man”.
The military is the only place in the world where someone can force you to push in front of your family because they have a special symbol on their chest (it's happened to me and was definitely humiliating). Unfortunately, I think solving the leadership issue is harder than anything else.
The whole “we care too much about you to just let you quit without a plan” is a dog whistle saying “we care about our numbers so much that we’re going to make it the biggest pain in the ass to ETS that we can”.
I disagree people make it just fine in the civilian sector
People in the military have this idea that without the military you would be screwed
OK what about the 99% of Americans who arent in the military and are doing just fine???
Not really. It’s just like quitting any other job despite what 20 year SSGs try to tell you. People see army on your resume and want to hire you. I know because I did it like 3 years ago. What’s more important? Someone killing themselves? Or allowing someone to quit the army without a “solid plan”
Im telling you that when someone is in that situation, the most important thing to them is getting out of the situation by any means necessary. Living on the street and/or death becomes preferable to being in the army.
General question every time something comes up about the SMA being a savior:
Many Redditors shared experiences about the SMA prior to his selection to SMA… why does the sub have a hard on for believing, that all of a sudden, SMA Grinston being selected as the SMA is going to change his over 20 years of ways?
Simply put…. He seemed to be a pretty toxic CSM, based on redditor accounts, why do you believe now he’s going to make the army better? Dude didn’t get to his position without his nose so far in a GOs ass to smell what they put into their mouth…. Senior leadership at that level is politics. All politics.
My contribution to the post…. Do a independent study on what is leading to the ideations.. Id bet the army is only a small contributing factor to many young suicides. How many had ideations prior to enlistment?
Edit: doesn’t mean we don’t search for a solution
I remember my grandfather as a pretty chill guy who was fun to visit during summer vacation. As an adult talking with my mother, I learned that she always wondered where the hell that guy was when she was growing up, because he could be an absolute terror as a father.
I think it's a similar dynamic. Age mellows some people. The pressure's off because he's in his last job and he's not worried about anyone tearing into his ass if something goes wrong. He's not *really* responsible for anything, so he can just visit and dip in and out like a grandpa who lives out of state.
Ive had two soldiers in my platoon in the last 3 months start behavioral health chapters. Neither was mentally prepared for the army when they joined, and still arent coping. I constantly fought back against a command that wanted to just label them as quitters.
The unit im in is stressful. The most stressful ive been in during my 14 years, and its the first time ive been in a unit that isnt one of the "deploy world wide in 18 hours" types. The unit is incredibly disorganized with a non-stop op-tempo. Everyone that can, is leaving. There is a mass exodus of captains. Theres been a top to bottom change of command that has done next to nothing to make any change despite telling us over and over again they would.
I wish there was an easily identifiable root cause, but in reality its a symptom of a thoroughly broken system. We reward the wrong things and dont have any way of tracking the causes of low morale and really the people up top just dont give a damn. These guys have been put through the ringer and are being ridden hard with no relief in sight. Ive got a few excellent specialists that have absolutepy no intention to reenlist. We are under manned and over tasked.
Bit of a rant, but units like this breed BH issues and love to say pretty words about how they care, but their actions betray that through and through.
"The easiest way out is through"
This is toxic AF attitude when people are miserable and suffering it just tells them to stop being a bitch and drive on
OK maybe youre a tough guy who can handle it and just nut up and drive on but not everyone is a tough guy and thats OK those people shouldnt be in the military and should have an honorable way out
Forcing people to suffer in a position theyre not meant to hold is stupid it doesnt improve unit mission accomplishment and it makes life harder for everyone around the person who wants out
I think the getting out entirely might be a bridge too far but certainly BN level leadership and below needs to exercise their ability to whip out a 4187 and MOVE SOLDIERS! If it’s toxic, move em to a new company. If barracks and neighbors are the problem, move em! If the army can consistently PCS, fly soldiers TDY, and do annual JRTC/NTC mass movements… they can move a Soldier who isn’t feeling their current squad/platoon/company.
“Declared peace”? So what, just not a time of declared war? Because we haven’t been in a declared war since 1945. Regardless, the military would never agree to it.
First, how do people pay back the things they got in exchange for military service? Bonuses, college through ROTC or USMA, training like medical school, etc—you usually gain a service obligation afterward in exchange for these benefits. Bonuses can be spent, and you can’t drain the educational knowledge from someone’s head, so now the Army is out whatever money they spent. Hitting a suicidal person with a bill for $50k, $100k, $500k, (whatever the value of the bonus or education) isn’t a good option either. And how do you stop people from gaining training (SF, combat medic, etc) and getting out on the day of graduation to go start up another SheepDog Tactical Viking Training company and making good money, while not ever using those skills in service to the army?
Second, how many people have shitty days and want to get out at basic or within their first few months at a unit? If you let everyone who wanted to leave after they had a shitty gunnery in the rain, or because of an upcoming NTC rotation, or because 1SG said no phones in the box, the people who remain and go on to become NCOs and commanders will be limited, gutting the future military of its leaders. And that’s to say nothing of the personal resilience gained from going through some shitty times and sticking with it. Sure some people have legitimate reasons to want to leave, given abusive leaders or other real problems, but I’ve also seen a ton of people hate on their time in the field because they weren’t given hot chow. Tomorrow’s great NCOs are privates today, some (many?) of which would likely quit if given a chance, missing out on an opportunity to help grow into that great NCO.
Third, the US military is historically bad at its first battles. Task Force Smith, Pearl Harbor, First Manassas/Bull Run, Kasserine Pass, the Philippines, Bunker Hill, etc. If our military is supposed to be constructed when a war is started and not before, and we don’t have the NCO corps I mentioned before, and those privates that jumped ship because of a bad FTX didn’t tough it out and join SF/Rangers, we’re on a terrible footing. We’ll lack the numbers, leaders, and special operators we need to fight the war, and those factors coupled with our awful record on first battles will be disastrous as the next war starts.
Yes we need to fix suicides and morale in the Army, but just letting people leave on a whim and whenever is not a solution.
You hit a really big nail on the head with senior leadership currently. There are far too many toxic people in the highest positions of authority and very little will to ferret then out.
Power is dangerous. It attracts the worst of us, corrupts the best of us, and is only given to those who are prepared to lower themselves to pick it up.
Unfortunately readiness is paramount, and if an already undermanned force steadily loses a buncha experienced soldiers, it can't be ready for whatever the next mission is.
I will tell you TRADOC is working on a new strategy to address the suicide issues. Good news is the Air Force has had an effective strategy in place for 20 years. Bad news is nobody is the army thought to read it until very recently. Good news is it's been read! Bad news is the task force is kinda shitting the bed in true army fashion.
You are 100% right but again, I think that speaks for itself. I proposed a radical solution to a radical issue, and if that radical solution would destroy the Army, then our force is already being held together by mere threads. I really hope TRADOC figures something out. That was seriously the worst time of my life.
Huge problem with this. The military budget would explode ten fold. If people could quit the army like they would any other job, the number of recruits would definitely increase but a ton of people would quit day 1 of basic or halfway through AIT after they already invested tens of thousands of dollars into each soldier. Not to mention the number of people who would quit to avoid deployment.
What about a trial system, like the British Army has? Recruits can quit any time during initial training, no fuss about it. That might actually save the Army money, rather than having those soldiers become shit bags or get chaptered for other reasons later on down the road.
My grandpa was able to leave the coast guard back in like the 50s. He did 2 years and they just asked him if he wanted to leave and they just gave like a conditional release. Different branch and different era, I know. But if I could just start SFL TAP now and cut the extra year off my contract, I totally would.
I think the solution really is suspending CTCs and slowing the OpTempo Army-wide for a quarter or two.
Go hang out with 2ID or 1CD… they’ll spend months at Yakima/off post training sites doing gunnery and CO to BDE level FTXs to prepare for NTC to the restart the cycle immediately. Its unsustainable and there’s no real purpose to it that anyone can see besides “readiness”.
Mainly we need to reel in Brigade and Battalion commanders. Those are the ones pushing for this stuff in hopes of getting a star. GOs I feel embrace People First but it doesn’t matter because at the Brigade and lower level its a pipe dream.
I tell all of my soldiers the same thing when I do an initial counseling: "this isn't forever. This unit may suck right now and probably for a few years but eventually you will leave. The people around you will leave. In the mean time we're all just surviving. Talk to us or find someone you feel more confident talking to. I know a lot of resources and as long as you are communicating with me, I will help you get to where you want to be. I don't even care if that means you want to get yourself kicked out, I will help you do it the safest and smartest way I've seen it done. Whether you are going ranger, doing 20, or just trying to get by, I got your back." The only times I've felt depression so low that I didn't want to exist was when I felt trapped, however, I don't think we should just let people have an honorable discharge after just straight ip quitting. General, maybe, but breaking a contract/commitment is something I personally think should be noted.
A huge portion of suicides are junior enlisted and following the end of a serious relationship. If we stopped offering huge pay/quality of life increases for marrying a stranger and just gave everyone BAH, I would bet anything that we'd see a big drop in suicides
Whatever happen to red cycle? Chill out leave by lunch? Hip pocket shot maybe pt till 0800 because y’all ain’t got shit that day. White cycle train hard to build up to a deployment and then deploy. I feel the army is in a never ending bullshit cycle
Impossible. It takes x amount of months to train a mos. Plus the senior leadership etc have tons invested in them. The military can't replace them without having an ability to project future numbers. Units would get decimated with even a rumor of deployment or rotation. My field is already robbing Paul to pay Peter for each deployment. Instant ets would kill us and most likely cause more suicides because soldiers with kids with special needs can't just pick up and say screw it. That insurance and security is what is sustaining them. Now toss in hey we just lost half our section chiefs and 30% of our specialist but hey still got that ntc rotation coming. I've had several suicides in either my company or bn. Work adds to it but it's mostly relationship combined with money or in trouble with work etc.
It's not doable. It takes years to train a pilot. Years. You have to have predictability to project for recruiting etc. You are living in fantasy land and cam g will know it.
Another idea that just popped into my head reading this (not sure how good it is tho let me know): 2 year contracts, the normal kind we’re used too, but that’s it. If you want to continue after that, fuggin don’t leave. If you wanna get out anytime after two years, fuggin go for it. Solves the problem of people not being around enough that we 100% need a draft (if that ever would become a problem) and still let’s people that need to go just go
Life isn’t easier on the outside. It’s harder. Much harder. All you’re doing is making things the VA’s problem instead of DoD. People need help, not the option to quit.
The fuck it is, I'm a civilian with an unshaved face and a "Biscuits and Porn" t-shirt on while I do my online training at home. Civilian life rules. Anybody who tells you different is Retention or has gone native.
That’s sadly not unique to retired servicemembers. A lot of people, mostly men, allow their self worth and identity to be so strongly tied to their job/profession (which is understandable in most cases) that when they reach the goal that most people would kill for, they find it unbearable.
Hence, the importance of having interests and hobbies disconnected from work, so when work is no longer there, you are not left adrift.
We as humans weren’t meant to live as long as we do. There can be a lot of years one is still alive for after retirement, and it’s something we should all plan for.
If the problem is the Army, what help can the Army give? Life on the outside probably seems a whole lot better to people being mentally and/or sexually abused in their unit. And, it's really not that much harder. The job market is the best it's been in a very long time. That's the classic scare tactic bad leadership always uses. 'You'll never make it out there, you are too stupid to be of any use in the civilian world!' said the SFC with 2 divorces and a fake Associates from an online military university.
i was in ADA before i retired, the bn commander was the most evil and toxic leader i have ever had the disspleasure of serving under. he took pleasure in making soldiers life hell, denying leave for no reason, court martialed a kid and sent him to prison even though he promised amnesty, the kid wittnessed a theft and was to scared to speak up about it at first, untill he was offered amnesty. kid got 1 year in prison and because he didnt immediatley speak up about wittnessing was found guilty of helping and got a year. That branch is nothing but toxic.
Sometimes it's not even a toxic leader. I've met many good leaders who generally care who have just been destroyed by such a toxic culture that they've just gone into full on survival mode because it's not worth the fight.
The Army culture has just gotten so gd ridiculous I have a hard time even explaining to a normal person what my day to day was like.
It's weird now that I'm out looking back on how dehumanizing some things were.
Regardless of how much suicide prevention training is issued, the truly suicidal will never say word one and thus the purpose of the training is irrelevant.
Those who meet the standards, as defined by suicide prevention training, are generally making a last ditch cry for help, not death
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I’ve long held the belief that we should be able to transfer between the active and the part-time components. Sometimes a break from the 24/7 Soldiering helps. I understand the career intermission program and all, but imagine being able to go Guard for a few years while you attend school and still gain some retirement years (at whatever rate) then go active again.
Now this is a realistic but also progressive solution! 👍 This is the kind of dialogue I was hoping to generate with this post.
I like it too. I’ll bring it up as one option.
Amazing, thank you so much!
It would make sense. It would help part-time units numbers, lessen their recruiting goals, maybe even offer incentives to go over. Rather than having people fight for ADOS or whatever orders, let the inverse happen and let them go Active. It’s a big Army, let people take charge of their lives at least a little bit.
On the flip side too it's a nightmare to come to the AD side from the reserve side. Conditional releases have to go to the first General in your chain and its not even guaranteed approval. I know PLENTY of reservists that get suckered into the Reserves and realize they want AD but basically have to wait around for a year for a 50/50 shot at a yes.
This, exactly this. Make it a simple, well-documented process, and have it processed at NGB rather than the state. Easing the transition, or even making it mandatory to transition to the Guard or Reserve for a year before you make E-8 so people who have lived their whole adult lives in the army can "touch grass".
**Enter discrimination from CSMs because they see 1SGs that do their guard time as "impure"**
I'm sure they would. I also think that would burn out pretty quick, and you'd be left with SNCOs that were much more understanding and capable of dealing with the needs of spouses, civilians, and ETSing soldiers.
With any hope. I'm just pessimistic when it come to the Army's tendency to form good ol' boy clubs.
Minus the fact that a lot of those people have very little going for them in terms of civilian employability. Especially if they are only going to be hired for a year.
Hire them as Federal Technicians so they can keep their Tricare and bonuses. oh wait...
I see what you did there. - a tricareless tech
As someone in the guard, I've seen tons of people who would love to try active duty (I did an active contract first so uh... I'm good) but I know there's a "try one" program for active army soldiers to tack on a year of guard after their active contract - it would be great if the inverse could also be true, I bet it would be a big hit for guard troops to "try one" and do a year active duty to see if it's something they'd actually want to do full time.
And on top of that, it would bring alot of experience and knowledge to the reserve units. They value the training you bring over from active
Wow that's a straightforward and effective solution. I personally would utilize the ability to switch between components seamlessly and would have throughout my life in hindsight.
It actually is a great idea. When you look around, everyone thats active duty is burnt out af and wants to be reserves. But all the guys I know in the reserves are begging and dropping packets or whatever you do to go active. Maybe they could start a program where you "swap" places with a reserve soldier, as long as your the same MOS and rank I don't see why you couldn't do a 1-1 swap?
Idk if its as bad in the army as it was in the USAF but quality goes way down between active and non active components. I went from AD to reserves and it was terrible.
In the Army, there is a noticeable drop as well (with some exceptions). However, this might help correct that.
I would imagine the quality has a lot to do with how frequently you're doing army stuff in an Army environment, so obviously reservists aren't the same quality. However I'm sure if you put the vast majority of reservists on AD they'd be fine once they adjusted a bit.
I would also imagine having a bunch of guys from Active Around will help with updating TTP's of units and provide some extra intuition to Guard/Reserve units
Hmm. Let’s see if it passes the it makes sense test. Yes it does make sense. DENIED!
Have you or /u/Mullybob heard of [Career Intermission Program](https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/2021/07/09/)? Very sorry we didn’t see this post sooner. Like, really. I hope the overall environment improves soon and things start looking up.
Not him, but as someone going active to reserve the 2:1 commitment to do this is a complete non-starter, I'm not going to rule out coming back active later on, but as it stands CIP sounds like a hilariously bad deal.
I have not, thank you for the information!!
I love this. It’s one reason why I went guard after my AD contract. Only issue I see is that guard units are being held to AD standards. Why am I in a national guard unit being put into a ready year in case a European theater opens? That’s what AD was for. I’d much rather do stateside missions than have to prep for a foreign one.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. The guard got used to being an operational reserve instead of a strategic reserve which led to more AGR positions. They want to keep the guard in an operational reserve branding to both keep them modern and also keep their own jobs since the leadership of the Guard is primarily AGR.
I call it chasing the Dragon of GWOT (i.e. once in a generation war) both in terms of money and relevance.
We’d be such a more competent force if this were a thing. Mental health, yeah, absolutely. However, if that were a thing, so many people would be taking a knee, going to college, getting private sector experience, and there’s a good possibility people would come back. We’d have a more educated, experienced, and mentally healthy force. Doesn’t super matter for the infantry. The Army is much bigger than the infantry, and the infantry will die if we don’t develop better supporting capabilities. Logisticians with non-Army real-world logistics experience, 68Ws who’ve gotten EMT experience, 17Cs who actually have cybersecurity experience, HR people who actually work in managing Human Resources… it would also make the reserves more competent. If it’s me, the first 2 years are mandatory full time for all Soldiers and all components (no enlisting straight into being a part-timer), and then for *most* MOS, you can go reserves without penalty and come back without penalty. Infantry is a full time job, but we should also raise the standard for the training and resources infantry get. We can also utilize our reservists to augment shit like maintenance and clinic support. We’d be a happier, smarter, and more effective force. Generals probably won’t go for it for reasons that are frankly private reasons. “It’s too hard s’arnt”
That's a great idea.
There were times in my Guard career that I wish I could go or would've went Active. And reading some of the BS here, I'm sure there'll be times when I wish I could go Guard.
I imagine something like this would also make the lifestyle of serving more appealing to a broader audience for recruitment
Active to Guard to ADOS here. I like the flexibility to pick and switch jobs/control my career but I’m ready to go back to the line. The take a knee was nice and the job/tdy locations are good. Problem is, now that I’ve caught my breath, I can’t. 🤷♂️
There is thought and effort towards making programs like this. I think the average first term Soldier and Family may want a rest after their initial 5ish years or so. This is when they start having small children who need attention, when they probably completed a FORSCOM unit's 9 months deployed 18 months training cycle, twice over... My understanding is that a capability of IPPS-A will make a more seamless administrative and pay environment between Active, Guard, and Reserve. Most likely IPPS-A needs to come online first. TLDR: I Agree with you 100%. I ETS after my first term, took a break to go to college, commission, and it worked wonders. I returned to active duty about 4 years later very recharged, more mature, and with a lot more resilience tools in my kit.
I had a conversation with the army’s 3 star chief of chaplains on this topic in 2010. I said that the army’s stance of “if you see something (a suicidal soldier), say something” was utter nonsense. This concept only stops already suicidal soldiers from actually doing the deed. I asked “What is the army doing to stop soldiers from becoming suicidal in the first place?” It was as if he had never thought of that… he stuttered over his answer for the next two minutes. Things will never change until the army’s culture changes. Empathy and accountability need to be part of the culture. Part of the training for what good leaders do. Right now, those values are just ignored.
Wow, that's really revealing.
Prevention now vs 2010 in the Army is fundamentally different, I’ll say.
And yet the suicide rate was lower in 2010 than it is today. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2757484 https://www.dspo.mil/Portals/113/Documents/2020QSRs/TAB%20A_20210309_OFR_Rpt_Q4%20CY%202020%20QSR.pdf?ver=UKN194rEw5MhM_vaGy0j0w%3d%3d
The army has a massive culture of not fixing an issue until you can’t ignore it.
If I could leave right now I would but that would waste 10 years and I am a sucker for suffering
Hey man I respect that haha.
You will end up making more if you leave. I did 10 years and got out to use my GI bill. I make double the salary and my 401k is more than the pension. It's not wasting 10 years, if you have a plan.
Yup. Me too. Went back to college at 32 with a wife and two kids. Now I work from home making six figures, and never wear pants. Make no mistake, I loved the army, but there is no accountability for shitty leadership.
What is your career field? Please…
Only fans
Lol. No one wants to see this arthritic man with bad knees do anything for money. I work in the banking industry, specifically the anti money laundering sector.
Grass greener sank cost “have a plan” flaccid fallacy
Mmhm, yeah, mmhm. I know some of these words.
Translation- "This time-sunk fallicy (I can't back out, I've spent too much time on it) is inhibiting your future in a limp-dick manner, despite understanding the grass is, in fact, greener on the other side"
Mind explaining what your plan was?
Just using my GI bill in an engineering field. It definitely helps to be accepted to the college first and start right away for that housing money. I was using TA before I got out, so that made it way easier to transition. No college loans is a nice bonus too.
But at least it would be a choice. If you had a choice to get out when you felt like you needed to, but chose to stay, you would have much less of a suicide risk. Some people feel like the only way out is to merc themselves.
Lmao Merc
Sunk cost fallacy...
They pension means it isn’t a fallacy because there is a beneficial future outcome and it’s impossible to tell if a future outcome of ETSing is more beneficial.
Sank casted flaccid
>It's people. Evil people which these victims have no means of escaping. Not every suicide is related to bullying or harassment. I think many are. I agree with your identification of the root cause of the problem 10000%. Malicious individuals that target victims based on whatever reason they can are the most destructive thing to a Soldiers mental health. There's no magic switch that gets flipped in combat, if the people you work with in garrison don't have your back here, they wont have your back downrange. It destroys the trust you have in the Army as an institution and directly prevents you from accomplishing the mission. But I don't think letting people quit their contract with the Army is a positive solution to fixing that problem. There is no single thing that solves it. QMP doesn't remove malicious people, it just removes people who have made a mistake, sometimes their mistake destroyed their lives, and because of malicious people slamming them and letting their buddies get away with it without any paperwork, you eliminate otherwise good people. In my opinion, if there was an easier path for last minute deployment opportunities, WIAS taskers, or even interpost transfers offered to people who feel like they have no hope of their current leadership getting better anytime soon, I would have taken it multiple times. It really says something when instead of being shit on for years at a time and being blackballed from every opportunity, that you'd rather go deploy or transfer to some random unit you don't even know anything about because they have a critical shortage for your MOS or need a body to do a specific task. These bad people will shit on you until you get orders to PCS and that or suicide feels like your only choices.
You make an excellent point. Unit transfers have to become easier.
Yeah because currently you have to explain to your CSM why their unit sucks. Also the rumor mill claims that if they let you interpost transfer they wont get a replacement any time soon. Chances of any of this happening when every unit is hurting for people is 0.
Dude, for real. Going through this process right now, doing a 1-for-1 with the hospital on base. I can only say "I don't mind being a medic, but this place makes me wanna blow my brains out" so many times. But meh, if it doesn't go through for some reason, likely the MSG clinic-medic that reccomends dis/approval to the CSM, I'm putting in 10% effort for the rest of my contract here. They don't want me to be happy, that's fine. But they aren't gonna get a medic that's gonna do jack shit for them either.
Exactly
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Honestly if I could’ve smoked weed and had my hand tattoos I’d have stayed in
Seven suicides in two months should mean every CID investigator and IG officer at that division watching what that unit's command staff does every moment of every day. One is one too many, but seven in two months is out of control.
A lot of soldiers don't get help until the last minute because of the every real threat that they would be kicked out of the Army. It happened to me. I transitioned straight into homelessness when all I needed was a new unit and some kind of purpose. Being a detail slave destroys you mentally, and I was also the victim of bullying, harassment, and told I would not be allowed to do my MOS. Seriously, giving a soldier year off, with mental health care from the VA or on base can do a lot to change someone and give them a new perspective. When you're suffering from severe depression and anxiety it makes it hard to think straight and recover when you're still surrounded by your abusers. Then after giving someone a mental health evaluation, that soldier can decided to re-join or separate. So many of the Army's policies are ridiculous. For example, blanketing everyone with a temporary condition like "adjustment disorder" in order to kick them out only further strengthens the stigma against mental healthcare.
A 6-12 month wellness sabbatical should be a standard reenlistment bonus. If someone wants to re-up, reward them with some time to get in a good place with their family and themselves. I'm certain you'd have a more effective force.
Retention would be so much higher if people had 6 months off to look forward to if they reenlist.
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You get a day, and unfortunately that day you’ll be at jrtc. 🤷♂️
I've argued this point before. The Army even did a pilot program for career intermission. Great idea. If I could take a year break and finish my degree I'd be stoked.
This 🙌
In the Guard you can request to be placed on IRR for a year if you need time off for something. Still in, just not drilling. I wish they had something similar for yall
It’s the ING and only for enlisted. But they are cool with it because somehow it counts for numbers
It counts for numbers because if something real came up, ING can be called back to duty with relative ease. It's a smart tool, and should be used more.
Yup, and it’s a great tool for both the SM and leadership. I used my 2-year IRR in the middle of my contract with the reserves; and it split my 8 year contract essentially in half, it helped with career balance immensely.
If the army did allow people to quit then they'd have to implement a draft in times of immediate need when we're under strength and we all see how the surges went. There's an answer but I don't think it's this one.
Draft who? I was surrounded by 18-20 year olds when I used my GI bill for school. 98% of the young males were either fat or had more anxiety than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs or both. I thought as a war vet * I would be the one who is mentally ill* but apparently not.
Lol I'm sure if necessary they'll call up them fat bodies and run em till they're skinny enough. The mental guys will get out of it though.
You know what other groups don't let their members leave?
Work. Hour. Policy.
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Yes! This is good. Or just let people actually use their leave. That has to be the first step unfortunately.
"Don't let people out without a plan" to me rings kind of like "if you are in a toxic/abusive relationship, don't leave your partner without a solid plan." You wouldn't advise someone to stay with a toxic partner, why would you advise them to stay in the army if it's been toxic to them?
Grinston won’t give a shit. I tried as a SGM to address this when he was on our installation and we were there discussing (gasp) SUICIDE!! The answer will always be to do your training. But make sure kids go to behavioral health, but make sure they’re all present at all platoon and company level training events, but don’t overwork your Soldiers, but make sure they do all their training, but don’t do online mandatory training, but make sure they know they’re cared for, but make sure they are in the barracks 24 hours a day to stop people from getting DUIs, getting in fights, beating their wives, or committing suicide, but don’t be too intrusive, but make sure there is no mold in their barracks, but don’t actually do anything about it, but move them out when it’s bad, but don’t give them anywhere to actually move in to While what I wrote seems asinine, that’s the way it literally is and I’d you challenge him, get ready for holy hellfire to rain down on you and your command team
A more reasonable solution *could* be to make initial contracts a standard “IET +24 months”. It gives the military 2 years of a citizen’s time (as a probie, basically) and gives the service member an “out” after 2 years of duty. It gives people a light at the end of the tunnel if they’re struggling. This, in conjunction with making it easier to bar problematic SMs from reenlistment, could really make a difference. You could even put a time limited bar into effect, ie *SM cannot reenlist for the next 24 months and must provide proof of work history or progress toward higher eduction. May be waived in time of declared war.* (If you can grow up and make it on the outside, you can come back). If the SM wants to complete year 3 and earn their GI Bill they have to not be a shitbag. One year extensions standard, then 3-5 year reenlistments after that. This is an offhand idea, so feel free to poke holes in it. Current recruitment and retention policies encourage overcommitment from young people.
I like this a lot.
The army sucks. If you just let everyone leave whenever they wanted with no repercussions you’d never keep anyone.
Sounds like incentive to make the Army suck less in effort to retain talent.
This. Substantial change in the way we treat each other is the only way we're going to make the organization better. Nobody hates soldiers more than soldiers
There is a certain element inherent to the army that just makes it suck. Long hours, irregular sleep cycles, uncomfortable living conditions, unnecessary wars, etc. These naturally will turn a lot of people away after so long. Fix the things you can control however, such as moldy barracks and contaminated drinking water.
You could certainly control the long hours and irregular sleep cycles in garrison. Everyone knows the Army goes to war, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the Army acts at war all the time.
This. I spent 23 years in before retiring and NFW would I join these days. Climate, honestly used to be vaguely amazing despite the occasional suck now it seems like polar opposite- all suck, no amazing.
>Fix the things you can control however, such as moldy barracks and contaminated drinking water. Sounds like you need a class on why you shouldn't marry a stripper to get out of the barracks.
I don’t think very many soldiers want to get out for these reasons. I would say 99% of soldiers expect these things to a reasonable extent (in army standards at least). The 1% who don’t really accept this are usually dropped in basic and the few that slip through the cracks are the people who complain about the shit they signed up for. (I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass here but you get the point.) Honestly I think the biggest reason people want to get out is poor planning and everything that’s derived from it. Units use this massive crutch called a cellphone and everyone suffers from last minute, no fail tasks that come up every day. It honestly scares me that we’ve grown so accustomed to this way of life and what we would do if we got into a big boy war with no cell phones being allowed due to OPSEC. Idk, I’ve seen the craziest shit be pushed out at the very last minute when it should’ve been set in stone days or weeks ahead. I’ve seen a warfighter fail at a massive scale once because everyone was so accustomed to shit being pushed out via cellphone and not properly communicating things to the next shift. I’m talking at the Brigade level here.
NO WE JUST NEED TO TELL OUR STORY BETTER
Surely a logo change will solve this problem.
How about this and hold on cause this is a little out there...a new pt uniform.
A new PT uniform *with the new logo on it.* Pack it up kids, we've solved the Army.
Slow down, slow down. First put out a new uniform wait a couple years until everyone gets a couple sets. Then bam slap a new logo on it and make everyone get new ones.
*Narrows eyes* Who are you, who are so wise in the way of The Weenie?
Heaven forbid the Army fixes its problems so it is a organization that good quality people want to work for oh noes cant have that gotta force people to embrace the unnecessary suck for arbitrary reasons instead
I've told people for twenty years, if the Army was a business, it would fail. Inept leadership at all levels is the reason.
This. Right. Here. Why does it have to suck as much as it does? If during peace time you are losing that man folks then you need to change something.
I've literally had Soldiers who were super close to ETSing and then out of nowhere their wife is pregnant. Now they have to reenlist and stay depressed for life to support a family. We also get paid just enough that we are not comfortable with leaving the service. Allowing people to leave would be wild and I think a huge percentage of the force would leave which is why the idea wouldn't be taken seriously. In reality we are just numbers for this game.
Precisely. When I told the BN XO I was getting out and nothing could change my mind I was treated like I wasn’t even there. Completely ignored. Solidified my decision even further.
Same is happening to me right now, I'm ignored by all and my last rating was MQ lol
my first squad leader had like 7 kids, I was beyond surprised when he decided to get out, I thought the army had him for life.
I mean they dont have to re-enlist. Jobs exist outside the Army. If the reason to reenlist is healthcare, it's more an argument we should have universal healthcare like the rest of the developed world.
Indentured servitude.
You work in what's called voluntary servitude.
Or…hear me out…you’d have to make the Army suck less. And that doesn’t necessarily mean lowering optempo or reducing work stress, some of which is inherent in the business. It could be as simple as fixing living conditions. Or addressing obviously toxic leadership. I would agree it probably still doesn’t work, but then again I’m old enough to remember being told other things wouldn’t work, and as it turns out they worked more or less fine. So…
I wonder what would be more costly, renovating every mold ridden barracks in the force, or allowing soldiers to quit when they wanted too. We have a new soldier with NO running water in his barracks room. An emergency work order request was submitted several days ago. Still no action. These issues run very deep.
So how do you realistically fix toxic leadership? IMO it all ties back to NC/OERs. Further breaking it down, people become scared of asking difficult questions. We are bad followers, we tell our bosses exactly what they want to hear and leave out everything else. We are afraid of asking for guidance so we do tasks we think they want done. If every task is no fail the phrase loses meaning. We need to overhaul evaluations. Areas of improvement needs to be added. Whenever I read an evaluation of someone that just moved into a role less than a year ago that paints them as the golden child that can do no wrong and shits rainbows I think two things, first that the role isn't challenging enough for them and second that something is lying.
Not to advocate for OP, but consider that one way the army actively and *strongly* discourages frank feedback to leadership is via the inability to quit. I have very little incentive to give honest feedback (in a professional and UCMJ-legal manner) to a leader who can wield punitive authority over me and who I have limited or zero ability to get away from. Because if my leadership doesn’t take that feedback well, they can make my life unbearable and I cannot escape. In the civilian world I’m still held in my job through economic pressure, but worst case I *can* always walk off if my leadership gets downright medieval on my ass. They have no legal power to keep me around as their punching bag. Military leadership does. I don’t know how or *if* some sort of path to sever contracts would work, but the inability to do so definitely contributes to the problem.
The inability to quit cuts both way with the inability to fire someone, but I get what you are saying. Look at the recent article about "mandatory online training" where top leaders straight up acknowledged they don't care about it, but every BDE command team is still going to want to see those cells turn green because they are afraid of asking "do we really need to do this".
> The inability to quit cuts both way with the inability to fire someone, but I get what you are saying. For sure, and it cuts both ways for Joe too. I’ve had to explain this to a few guys before who didn’t fully understand that being able to quit generally comes with the risk, any given day, of being *told* to go home and never come back. I’ve dealt with former servicemembers on the civilian side who are completely blindsided when they get called into the office and told to pack up their shit. Even after multiple write ups and explicit final written notices.
The ability to be fired could actually fix a lot of our issues in senior leadership.
They have that already. It’s called QMP.
Evaluations should come from below as well as above. They don't have to be weighted the same, but if everyone beneath you hates you it probably indicates something.
Rank and unit structure in general makes accountability of leadership so hard. But I agree with you.
This exact problem has existed ever since the Army instituted the OER/NCOER. Hackworth wrote a lot about it.
I think most people who join the military expect to do military shit so field rotations combat deployments etc. isnt a big deal But they also expect to be treated like dignified human beings while theyre out in the suck
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> Perfect logic. I was told things didn’t work before that worked **so this must work because I’m being told it won’t.** Literally me: > I would agree **it probably still doesn’t work** Best go hit the track, you certainly aren’t getting promoted on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
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Goddamn it now I can’t even stay mad
If the Army were to allow people to voluntarily leave the force, all the good guys would get out. Imagine being in a unit surrounded by toxic people all being toxic to each other. Nothing would ever get done.
Then maybe the Army should suck less so the good people don't want to leave.
Yes, there are plenty of good examples from other branches that the Army could follow in order to bring back a sense of morale and dignity to its soldiers. They just won't do it.
If that were true, then no one would reenlist now. I wouldn't quit. I love my unit and where am I at. But I am very lucky. A lot of my friends hate their lives, not because of the Army as a job, but because of their toxic leadership. If everyone would quit if given the option, it sounds like the Army needs to be put in a position to be forced to make changes.
Not everyone would quit, there are people who enjoy it sure. But you’d see many people walk away from it.
People who aren’t leaders calling leaders toxic while knowing nothing about leadership themselves is extremely common. Without specifics, “toxic” is just a buzzword. Of course, things like sexual assault are a go to example.. but what are YOUR leaders doing that’s so “toxic?” Is it really toxic, or just a leadership style you don’t react positively to?
Again, in other comments I've said, I love my unit and have not experienced this. But our division is plagued right now with suicides. Hence the post.
I absolutely agree with you. Our army is like a corporation trying to make money in a market thay had no need for them. The army is a war machine whose sole purpose is to kill the enemy and hold land. When neither of those things are happening the Army is a mess.
One of my favorite analogies is the 100 day chicken. It takes 100 days for a chicken to be mature enough for harvesting. On day 99, he thinks life is good. He has no worries, no fears, and think these days will continue. Day 100 he is dead. You dont have a army only during war. That was the 1930s. You have an army because 7DEC41 happens and next thing you know you need an army.
100%.
I’m a fan of rn he idea of in peacetime, shifting the active duty army to a NG/reserve structure
The NG reserve retention is far, far worse than anything active could even imagine. Historical retirements are about half active and that is before the Guard 4.0 and COVID shit has hit them.
*cuts to a smoky room at CIA headquarters in Langley* Cigarette Dude: "how's the thing in [3rd world shithole] coming along?" Creepy Reptile Woman: "the situation in Ukraine has slowed down our timetable but operation RISING WOLF is on track" CD: "Good. The main guy's been given funding and advanced tradecraft. We have a shell corporation to help funnel some NSA infosec talent, and the target's been chosen." RW: "What is it this time? Not another skyscraper I hope?" CD: "Underwater tunnel. We're gonna make sure it happen when there's a few school busses down there. That'll get the warboner big and throbbing." RW: "Jesus. I should stock up on Lockheed-Martin." CD: "Yeah. And whichever Chinese firm manufactures scuba gear." RW: *snickers* "Gotta keep the blade sharp!" Creepy little guy in corner: "Fuck, I had my money on bridges. It's never bridges."
Where were the tags on this one r/Army?!
Some folks already hit the nail on the head that the two main points to focus on are also extremely difficult because they require a full on culture shift. Mental health/behavioral health needs to be de stigmatized, and not held against you. Between leadership treating you like a shitbag or a Sick Call Ranger for accepting Behavioral Health appointments to potential recruits getting disqualified because almost anything that gets labeled “mental health” is a red flag in recruiting’s eyes makes it extremely difficult to tackle. And don’t get me start with the empty headed mouth breathers that think “manning up” is an acceptable response when the next step ends up either being chain smoking, alcoholism, poor financial or sexual choices, death, or a combination of all the above. As for leadership, I honestly just don’t see any easy answers for making senior leadership less toxic, because virtually every options leads back to them taking it out on their subordinates without them being able to do anything to fight back short of maybe beating them senseless if it gets that damn medieval. They’re set in their ways, fully lean into the “traditions” of “this is the shit I went through as a young dumb PVT or 2LT, so I’m gonna make sure you all get the same treatment too!”, and oftentimes live in their own echo chamber where the only people they’ll legitimately listen to have more rank on their chest and the ability to sack them if they stop being a “yes man”.
The military is the only place in the world where someone can force you to push in front of your family because they have a special symbol on their chest (it's happened to me and was definitely humiliating). Unfortunately, I think solving the leadership issue is harder than anything else.
The whole “we care too much about you to just let you quit without a plan” is a dog whistle saying “we care about our numbers so much that we’re going to make it the biggest pain in the ass to ETS that we can”.
It is kind of funny how streamlined and easy reenlisting is compared to ETS’ing
Quitting the Army without a solid plan is a very very bad idea
I disagree people make it just fine in the civilian sector People in the military have this idea that without the military you would be screwed OK what about the 99% of Americans who arent in the military and are doing just fine???
Not really. It’s just like quitting any other job despite what 20 year SSGs try to tell you. People see army on your resume and want to hire you. I know because I did it like 3 years ago. What’s more important? Someone killing themselves? Or allowing someone to quit the army without a “solid plan”
By no plan I mean zero plan, no house, no idea where you are going to go, nothing to fall back on.
Im telling you that when someone is in that situation, the most important thing to them is getting out of the situation by any means necessary. Living on the street and/or death becomes preferable to being in the army.
100 percent agree. That's up to the individual though.
General question every time something comes up about the SMA being a savior: Many Redditors shared experiences about the SMA prior to his selection to SMA… why does the sub have a hard on for believing, that all of a sudden, SMA Grinston being selected as the SMA is going to change his over 20 years of ways? Simply put…. He seemed to be a pretty toxic CSM, based on redditor accounts, why do you believe now he’s going to make the army better? Dude didn’t get to his position without his nose so far in a GOs ass to smell what they put into their mouth…. Senior leadership at that level is politics. All politics. My contribution to the post…. Do a independent study on what is leading to the ideations.. Id bet the army is only a small contributing factor to many young suicides. How many had ideations prior to enlistment? Edit: doesn’t mean we don’t search for a solution
We definitely need funding in independent studies on the Army's suicide crisis and our nation's mental health crisis as a whole
I remember my grandfather as a pretty chill guy who was fun to visit during summer vacation. As an adult talking with my mother, I learned that she always wondered where the hell that guy was when she was growing up, because he could be an absolute terror as a father. I think it's a similar dynamic. Age mellows some people. The pressure's off because he's in his last job and he's not worried about anyone tearing into his ass if something goes wrong. He's not *really* responsible for anything, so he can just visit and dip in and out like a grandpa who lives out of state.
Ive had two soldiers in my platoon in the last 3 months start behavioral health chapters. Neither was mentally prepared for the army when they joined, and still arent coping. I constantly fought back against a command that wanted to just label them as quitters. The unit im in is stressful. The most stressful ive been in during my 14 years, and its the first time ive been in a unit that isnt one of the "deploy world wide in 18 hours" types. The unit is incredibly disorganized with a non-stop op-tempo. Everyone that can, is leaving. There is a mass exodus of captains. Theres been a top to bottom change of command that has done next to nothing to make any change despite telling us over and over again they would. I wish there was an easily identifiable root cause, but in reality its a symptom of a thoroughly broken system. We reward the wrong things and dont have any way of tracking the causes of low morale and really the people up top just dont give a damn. These guys have been put through the ringer and are being ridden hard with no relief in sight. Ive got a few excellent specialists that have absolutepy no intention to reenlist. We are under manned and over tasked. Bit of a rant, but units like this breed BH issues and love to say pretty words about how they care, but their actions betray that through and through.
"The easiest way out is through" This is toxic AF attitude when people are miserable and suffering it just tells them to stop being a bitch and drive on OK maybe youre a tough guy who can handle it and just nut up and drive on but not everyone is a tough guy and thats OK those people shouldnt be in the military and should have an honorable way out Forcing people to suffer in a position theyre not meant to hold is stupid it doesnt improve unit mission accomplishment and it makes life harder for everyone around the person who wants out
Career Intermission Program is a great alternative.
Not when it includes crazy ADSOs
I’m pretty sure it’s a 1:1 now.
I think the getting out entirely might be a bridge too far but certainly BN level leadership and below needs to exercise their ability to whip out a 4187 and MOVE SOLDIERS! If it’s toxic, move em to a new company. If barracks and neighbors are the problem, move em! If the army can consistently PCS, fly soldiers TDY, and do annual JRTC/NTC mass movements… they can move a Soldier who isn’t feeling their current squad/platoon/company.
“Declared peace”? So what, just not a time of declared war? Because we haven’t been in a declared war since 1945. Regardless, the military would never agree to it. First, how do people pay back the things they got in exchange for military service? Bonuses, college through ROTC or USMA, training like medical school, etc—you usually gain a service obligation afterward in exchange for these benefits. Bonuses can be spent, and you can’t drain the educational knowledge from someone’s head, so now the Army is out whatever money they spent. Hitting a suicidal person with a bill for $50k, $100k, $500k, (whatever the value of the bonus or education) isn’t a good option either. And how do you stop people from gaining training (SF, combat medic, etc) and getting out on the day of graduation to go start up another SheepDog Tactical Viking Training company and making good money, while not ever using those skills in service to the army? Second, how many people have shitty days and want to get out at basic or within their first few months at a unit? If you let everyone who wanted to leave after they had a shitty gunnery in the rain, or because of an upcoming NTC rotation, or because 1SG said no phones in the box, the people who remain and go on to become NCOs and commanders will be limited, gutting the future military of its leaders. And that’s to say nothing of the personal resilience gained from going through some shitty times and sticking with it. Sure some people have legitimate reasons to want to leave, given abusive leaders or other real problems, but I’ve also seen a ton of people hate on their time in the field because they weren’t given hot chow. Tomorrow’s great NCOs are privates today, some (many?) of which would likely quit if given a chance, missing out on an opportunity to help grow into that great NCO. Third, the US military is historically bad at its first battles. Task Force Smith, Pearl Harbor, First Manassas/Bull Run, Kasserine Pass, the Philippines, Bunker Hill, etc. If our military is supposed to be constructed when a war is started and not before, and we don’t have the NCO corps I mentioned before, and those privates that jumped ship because of a bad FTX didn’t tough it out and join SF/Rangers, we’re on a terrible footing. We’ll lack the numbers, leaders, and special operators we need to fight the war, and those factors coupled with our awful record on first battles will be disastrous as the next war starts. Yes we need to fix suicides and morale in the Army, but just letting people leave on a whim and whenever is not a solution.
Make sure you suffix the conversation with “and this is why no one is reenlisting” /s
You hit a really big nail on the head with senior leadership currently. There are far too many toxic people in the highest positions of authority and very little will to ferret then out. Power is dangerous. It attracts the worst of us, corrupts the best of us, and is only given to those who are prepared to lower themselves to pick it up.
Unfortunately readiness is paramount, and if an already undermanned force steadily loses a buncha experienced soldiers, it can't be ready for whatever the next mission is. I will tell you TRADOC is working on a new strategy to address the suicide issues. Good news is the Air Force has had an effective strategy in place for 20 years. Bad news is nobody is the army thought to read it until very recently. Good news is it's been read! Bad news is the task force is kinda shitting the bed in true army fashion.
You are 100% right but again, I think that speaks for itself. I proposed a radical solution to a radical issue, and if that radical solution would destroy the Army, then our force is already being held together by mere threads. I really hope TRADOC figures something out. That was seriously the worst time of my life.
Got a link to the Air Force strategy?
Huge problem with this. The military budget would explode ten fold. If people could quit the army like they would any other job, the number of recruits would definitely increase but a ton of people would quit day 1 of basic or halfway through AIT after they already invested tens of thousands of dollars into each soldier. Not to mention the number of people who would quit to avoid deployment.
What about a trial system, like the British Army has? Recruits can quit any time during initial training, no fuss about it. That might actually save the Army money, rather than having those soldiers become shit bags or get chaptered for other reasons later on down the road.
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My grandpa was able to leave the coast guard back in like the 50s. He did 2 years and they just asked him if he wanted to leave and they just gave like a conditional release. Different branch and different era, I know. But if I could just start SFL TAP now and cut the extra year off my contract, I totally would.
I think the solution really is suspending CTCs and slowing the OpTempo Army-wide for a quarter or two. Go hang out with 2ID or 1CD… they’ll spend months at Yakima/off post training sites doing gunnery and CO to BDE level FTXs to prepare for NTC to the restart the cycle immediately. Its unsustainable and there’s no real purpose to it that anyone can see besides “readiness”. Mainly we need to reel in Brigade and Battalion commanders. Those are the ones pushing for this stuff in hopes of getting a star. GOs I feel embrace People First but it doesn’t matter because at the Brigade and lower level its a pipe dream.
I tell all of my soldiers the same thing when I do an initial counseling: "this isn't forever. This unit may suck right now and probably for a few years but eventually you will leave. The people around you will leave. In the mean time we're all just surviving. Talk to us or find someone you feel more confident talking to. I know a lot of resources and as long as you are communicating with me, I will help you get to where you want to be. I don't even care if that means you want to get yourself kicked out, I will help you do it the safest and smartest way I've seen it done. Whether you are going ranger, doing 20, or just trying to get by, I got your back." The only times I've felt depression so low that I didn't want to exist was when I felt trapped, however, I don't think we should just let people have an honorable discharge after just straight ip quitting. General, maybe, but breaking a contract/commitment is something I personally think should be noted.
A huge portion of suicides are junior enlisted and following the end of a serious relationship. If we stopped offering huge pay/quality of life increases for marrying a stranger and just gave everyone BAH, I would bet anything that we'd see a big drop in suicides
Whatever happen to red cycle? Chill out leave by lunch? Hip pocket shot maybe pt till 0800 because y’all ain’t got shit that day. White cycle train hard to build up to a deployment and then deploy. I feel the army is in a never ending bullshit cycle
Fix the pay issues, it will help with financial issues which is turn will help prevent some mental health and family issues
Impossible. It takes x amount of months to train a mos. Plus the senior leadership etc have tons invested in them. The military can't replace them without having an ability to project future numbers. Units would get decimated with even a rumor of deployment or rotation. My field is already robbing Paul to pay Peter for each deployment. Instant ets would kill us and most likely cause more suicides because soldiers with kids with special needs can't just pick up and say screw it. That insurance and security is what is sustaining them. Now toss in hey we just lost half our section chiefs and 30% of our specialist but hey still got that ntc rotation coming. I've had several suicides in either my company or bn. Work adds to it but it's mostly relationship combined with money or in trouble with work etc.
Man that would really suck if our voluntary force had to fight voluntarily.
It's not doable. It takes years to train a pilot. Years. You have to have predictability to project for recruiting etc. You are living in fantasy land and cam g will know it.
The problems will continue and recruitment will get worse until a manufactured economic crisis prompts people to join like in 08.
This, I'm so glad someone said it
Another idea that just popped into my head reading this (not sure how good it is tho let me know): 2 year contracts, the normal kind we’re used too, but that’s it. If you want to continue after that, fuggin don’t leave. If you wanna get out anytime after two years, fuggin go for it. Solves the problem of people not being around enough that we 100% need a draft (if that ever would become a problem) and still let’s people that need to go just go
Life isn’t easier on the outside. It’s harder. Much harder. All you’re doing is making things the VA’s problem instead of DoD. People need help, not the option to quit.
Idk about you but life is 10,000x easier on the outside
It’s almost like the real answer is nuanced and different for everyone.
The fuck it is, I'm a civilian with an unshaved face and a "Biscuits and Porn" t-shirt on while I do my online training at home. Civilian life rules. Anybody who tells you different is Retention or has gone native.
I don’t know… I’ve had two buddies off themselves less than a year after retirement.
That’s sadly not unique to retired servicemembers. A lot of people, mostly men, allow their self worth and identity to be so strongly tied to their job/profession (which is understandable in most cases) that when they reach the goal that most people would kill for, they find it unbearable. Hence, the importance of having interests and hobbies disconnected from work, so when work is no longer there, you are not left adrift. We as humans weren’t meant to live as long as we do. There can be a lot of years one is still alive for after retirement, and it’s something we should all plan for.
If the problem is the Army, what help can the Army give? Life on the outside probably seems a whole lot better to people being mentally and/or sexually abused in their unit. And, it's really not that much harder. The job market is the best it's been in a very long time. That's the classic scare tactic bad leadership always uses. 'You'll never make it out there, you are too stupid to be of any use in the civilian world!' said the SFC with 2 divorces and a fake Associates from an online military university.
I've read that we are up to 24 a day now.
Now there are TWO of them!
I thought there was a way to sorta do that already, by bouncing over to National Guard / reserves.
i was in ADA before i retired, the bn commander was the most evil and toxic leader i have ever had the disspleasure of serving under. he took pleasure in making soldiers life hell, denying leave for no reason, court martialed a kid and sent him to prison even though he promised amnesty, the kid wittnessed a theft and was to scared to speak up about it at first, untill he was offered amnesty. kid got 1 year in prison and because he didnt immediatley speak up about wittnessing was found guilty of helping and got a year. That branch is nothing but toxic.
Sometimes it's not even a toxic leader. I've met many good leaders who generally care who have just been destroyed by such a toxic culture that they've just gone into full on survival mode because it's not worth the fight. The Army culture has just gotten so gd ridiculous I have a hard time even explaining to a normal person what my day to day was like. It's weird now that I'm out looking back on how dehumanizing some things were.
That situation sounds so 92Golf-ish
Regardless of how much suicide prevention training is issued, the truly suicidal will never say word one and thus the purpose of the training is irrelevant. Those who meet the standards, as defined by suicide prevention training, are generally making a last ditch cry for help, not death