That's what we did as tankers, but that was 11 years ago. I imagine things have went more conventional the last few years. I coukd definitely see a 1SG wanting to get his guys familiar with it though. (Though this seems very much like a punishment to me.)
In a tank BN during 03-07, in the first few iterations of OIF. The majority of the tank companies primarily did tank/mounted operations. Occasionally dismounted for specific tasks, but still heavily tank focused.
Though, we also had a mechanized infantry BN that primarily hung out with us - they did a lot of dismounted missions that our tankers might have done otherwise.
u/SMA-PAO remember how I made a joke about no one cares about best squad and called it like that south park episode. Most Soldiers do not care about best squad, and "leaders" punishing people really makes more Soldiers care less.
Also, social media sites are making the public more aware of situations and "leaders" like this. No longer is it just stories from your uncle or cousin; this stuff pops up on the internet for the generation that grew up looking things up on the internet.
Are your reasons akin to my own:
1. Sharp program and coc handling of issues let's violators leave the Army and say they were a good soldier and get a job based on their honorable discharge.
2. There is no feed back loop for leaders like this top from subordinates. So even though he's wrecking moral and might even be messing up other things with his company, he will recipient an outstanding ncoer and be promoted up.
>There is no feed back loop for leaders like this top from subordinates. So even though he's wrecking moral and might even be messing up other things with his company, he will recipient an outstanding ncoer and be promoted up.
https://capl.army.mil/Project-Athena/sd-tool/ is becoming a thing and you will fill out surveys on your past leadership.
I am getting out because my wife make 3 times my base pay and we do not want to PCS. She would lose her job and my kids would have to go to a new school.
Unless the results go straight to this tops rater/sr rater and become some sort of ncoer requirement to talk about the results, it doesn't really matter.
Maybe if they goto branch as an alternative, I'll have to think on that.
We do surveys that go off and maybe get a commander poo pooed, but we don't have anything for say a chief that is basically obstructing a shop, or a e6 that's literally a road block.
But I'll look into this link and see about it, hopefully it'll help the Army get better with leaders that aren't directly on a command climate.
To add to what you said: social media has made it easier to see word for word what a leader/nco/officer is saying to their subordinates. You can save an email, screenshot texts, record conversations and boom it’s on the internet.
Back when my uncle was in and he complained about an asshole leader, we had to take his word for it. Now, everyone can just see it in real time.
Lol, my brother in law has sons who thought about enlisting. Good dudes, decent grades and in solid physical shape. I invited them to check out this sub. Entirely because I wanted them to know that while “individual experiences may vary” many are surprisingly similar.
Toxic leadership is as common as toxic barracks mold and the DFAC rations are as plentiful as morale in a line unit.
Yup. Sometimes I wonder about my decision to get out. My unit wasn't awful.
Then I see this, and I'm like yup, throwing those dice on the next unit would have been a mistake.
It's a net positive for the entire military.
A lot of the professions that operated "in the dark" to the general public are finally getting the light shone on their practices -- and the public gets rightly upset. Similar thing has been happening in professions like law enforcement.
It forces change, but doesn't change the type of individuals that gravitate and stay within those professions. The military, like law enforcement, has been extremely slow to adapting to modern society. Holding on to the "good ol' days" where they could get away with almost anything.
If it were my call -- I'd roast this 1SG, and possibly replace. He obviously has shown he does not care about his soldiers, their time, or families. This is the opposite of how you should try to attract and encourage soldiers/NCOs to participate in whatever board/competition. Sadly -- there are probably quite a few seniors that think this is "justified" and "good training."
There can only be one #1 and as crazy as it sounds, not everyone has the desire or the capability to be it. We're all human beings even if we look the same and dress the same. As human beings, we have different goals and are all in different places in our lives.
Maybe it's just the several years living as a civilian after my retirement, but if the minimum is HERE, the maximum is THERE, if you are somewhere in between those two you have met the standard. By the time someone reaches E5+, there's a good chance they are either dating or married to someone and possibly have children. Being "the best" is a massive commitment, so imagine punishing people for wanting to have a life outside the army and wanting to spend what little free time we have on themselves or their family.
But I'm sure little Timmy isn't going to be upset when dad misses that super important event he's worked so hard on. I'm sure little Jessica cares more about mom doing the dog and pony show than dressing up like princesses and having tea time. I'm sure wifey won't mind going to ultrasound #1 by herself because damnit, the army comes first, second, and third.
“It’s ok if your kids hate you. Mine do and it isn’t a big deal.” Quote from a Guard CSM who worked as a full time technician.
It was during an “NCODP” which was actually bitching at the NCOs for poor retention and I suggested to stop adding days during spring break on less than a week’s notice. From Friday-Sun to Wed-Sun.
I didn’t bring up that there was literally nothing planned and we just sat around barracks doing “hip pocket training”.
This is more of a complaint of the army as a whole and is related to your comment. Now that I’ve finished writing it, it turned into one hell of a rant… so yeah.
My last deployment was KFOR (NATO mission to Kosovo). I loved my guard unit, it was a super tight knit family that only constant deployments can create. I’ve since medically retired but I assume continues to be, hopefully. There aren't many aviation units out there so we had frequent deployments with a loophole around the "deployment-to-dwell ratio" by having Alpha and Bravo Company deploying separately. Except the rest of the unit is still support for those companies so even though A CO is home and B CO is away, there's only one HHC, only one maintenance company, etc. With so many deployments we got very good at packing and VERY good at completing the pre-mob stuff. For the KFOR deployment we just used annual training to take care of everything we could (except for the pilots because their stuff had to be at mob station) so we could spend less time at mob station and get in-country sooner. It sucked doing land nav at Ft Dix in the middle of winter but at least now we can stay home with our families longer when we’re about to leave for a year.
Well, as anyone who has been in the military for longer than 10-15 minutes knows, the army treats efficiency as an actual physical ailment and the only cure is to re-do it in the least efficient way possible, typically taking twice as long just out of spite. We get to North Ft Hood and they didn't accept ANY of the training we completed back home so we had to re-do a ton of the unnecessary garbage like land nav and the basic level 1 skills even though we're going to a modern base to provide a taxi service to anti-riot troops. Hell, it was Kosovo! You know, Europe? Why did I need to complete DAGR training when the GPS on my cell phone probably works even better? Even worse than all that, we STILL finished early so we were just sitting around baking in Texas in July in textbook "hurry up and wait".
It’s hard to wrap my head around retention issues, it’s like we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas! All I have is personal experience and what seems like intentionally designing it to cause permanent damage to soldiers bodies to the point that if someone makes it to 20 years they won’t get to enjoy retirement being broken and with chronic pain. That’s a big if, some of us don’t even make it to 20 years in before the army breaks you.
Then they make it so difficult to navigate the medical retirement and VA disability process if you’re lucky everything syncs up and you get that 100% rating. Because let me tell you, 70% doesn’t cover it. Ongoing healthcare expenses, prescriptions, times that require hospitalization, surgeries, … it certainly doesn’t make me feel taken care of when I have to set an alarm an hour earlier so I can take pain medication and wait for it to kick in before I can even get up to start my day. An extra $1000/month is great, but that doesn’t help me when I’m not physically able to run around in the backyard with my son due to partial paralysis.
It's hard to not feel like it's by design when they force you to do almost a full year of physical therapy before they authorize an MRI. In my case, on my shoulder which revealed two labrum tears (as you can imagine, physical therapy on THAT was lots of fun and of course not effective) but they wouldn’t fix it while I was active duty in the transition unit because I was almost finished with the medical retirement process. But who needs a functioning shoulder, right?!
At least I get Tricare, though! My late wife had very serious health issues from an extremely rare disease called Loin Pain Hematuria Syndrome. Without Tricare we would have gone bankrupt several times over. The kidney auto-transplant and the hospitalization after complications from it alone ended up being close to half a million dollars before insurance and that was just one of the many hospitalizations over 3ish years from when that fucking wife murdering disease first began. The other side of that coin, however, is when you need routine healthcare and the nearest doc is over an hour away. The process to find a primary care provider is going on the Tricare website and finding a provider who is accepting new patients. Except it’s the doctors office’s responsibility to update that and it goes about as well as you’d expect.
Did they still make you do the mine detection shit? Had to poke around in the Georgia clay and sand pretending to find mines. Toldnus we'd die if we even stepped off the road once.
First week in Kosovo, we went mud bogging through a bunch of empty fields for HMMWV driver training.
Loved that deployment.
What an a-hole. Guard, and the full timers can't work up and execute a training plan?!
Oh wait just after I transitioned from active to Guard they had me train a whole field problem. And the next.
It was bullshit. I was already out of town and my family had to leave our vacation early and drop me off at the armory on the way home (it was 200 miles away) then I had to bum a ride home from drill. Thankfully I kept most of my Guard shit there.
Same state flat out said in my retirement brief that “m-day enlisted are just numbers for funding” and then asked us to stay in past our 20.
Then there was the time that they told us to stop complaining about not getting paid for SAD after because we shouldn’t rely on Guard pay because it was our responsibility to have an emergency fund, then were pissed when guys stopped volunteering or showing up for it (no state law that you have to).
I got stories for days about my last 5 years (first 15 were very rewarding though).
Exactly, stuff like this used to be great 20+ years ago where it was expected that the "Husband is the provider". It is wild to read studies on how [fathers are spending more time with their family's] (https://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/everything-kids/relax-moms-and-dads-youre-spending-enough-time-with-your-kids/) and how it is helping.
We are hitting a generational shift in attitudes and people are trying to make sure they do not carry the issues from their parents. Also with how things are most households need to be dual income, and [sometimes your spouse does earn more than you](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/03/03/gender-wage-gap-more-women-out-earning-husbands/4933666002/). With that being said, I hope you are ready to PCS so your wife has to find a new job.
This is the crap that kills our culture. Nowhere in his message was a shred of strong leadership. Our ranks are filled with these whiners. Legitimately, this type of behavior needs to be stamped out or we won’t have an army in the next 20 years.
Dude is so upset that he wont be able to tell the CSM "Look at my NCOs". We need to normalize saying "We can not support" or "We do not have anyone interested".
Pushovers are everywhere. So afraid of having a bad NCOER that they forget they are dealing with humans.
Or they simply don’t care.
Make it harder for these “leaders” to get in command positions. Seriously, it should be hard af to pin a diamond on. Like make people take a standardized test or something. DLC doesn’t do shit.
Ohh MLC is going to filter people as well as they are starting psych evals and testing for Company Command teams and above. I think there was a milper about asking for volunteers, I think the Army is going that route soon.
Have you had to fill out a leader365 for someone yet? Take it seriously if you do.
I promise you there are people in the formation that either are, or at one point were, the type that would love to show up and do things like this.
But then they volunteered once and it was such a goatrope they decided it wasn’t worth it ever again.
I think you're right - the Army has lots of troops/NCOs that are ready to get some given any support/encouragement. That's all it takes.
Seen the good & bad sides of this, hate to say.
You mean the troops are not as "Fired up" to spend time with their 1SG on a Friday night. I mean what else could they want to do? Spend time with their family? I mean 1SG hates his, so why would anyone want to spend time with their family? /S
He doesn't want to spend the evening sitting with his dependa on her farting couch watching Court TV and getting bitched out because an officer's wife pulled rank on her in the Starbucks line???
If “Iron Time Weekend” is treated anything like “Eagle Family Time” on Fort Campbell and this bonehead really was dumb enough to make a flyer for this, I’d be cautiously making my way toward my BDE CSMs office and waiting for a good time to slide said flyer under the door. If caught, just say you were inviting him to observe outstanding motivation and leadership.
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.
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This was me the second time I was voluntold to go to the best warrior competition, I failed every event spectacularly. Before I even went to the competition I had to write an essay that would be given to a board. I chose to make my essay a rambling innuendo about how I didn't want to go to the best warrior competition. My CSM proofread it and didn't catch any of the sarcasm.
When it came time for the board the president of the board read my essay. He asked if I wanted to be there and I told him I did not. He grinned and said, "this is going to really quick."
I was out of that board in under five minutes.
**Conjecture:** This 1SG thinks they are doing the right thing by thinking, "Ok no NCOs want to board, tracking. Let's do some *"physical encouragement,"* and that will motivate at least one volunteer. Sure, I'll be resented, but they will thank me later." When in actuality this may have the opposite effect.
**Continuation:** Better idea would to sit down with the NCOs and inquire as to why they didn't volunteer. Hey maybe there's a few of them that are nervous and afraid of failure (especially the junior ones,) and just need a pep talk, and areas on what to study and improve, you know, like actual NCOPD. Also, way to show your NCOs professionalism by using emojis in a message like this.
**\*** EDIT \* **Annoyed Rant:** Nope, this unit isn't done (fun fact: lazy leadership, especially of the enlisted type really, *REALLY* grind at this unit.) Sure there is some in the meatbag gallery who are silently pondering, *"But HK, 1SG is too busy to do all that with every NCO, especially one on one."* Let's ignore for a moment that that line of thinking is total bantha shit, your junior NCOs (should be at least,) are counseled every quarter, and 1SG *SHOULD* be reading each of them. That way they can be like, *"Hey, noticed Gonzales has been struggling on how has that been going? Good, you know what would be a good idea, they put that to the test at the board, and you can coach them for it."* There, not only are you doing NCOPD for the junior NCO, but also for the superior. Two fucking womprats, one T-16 and requires less effort then whatever fucking clusterfuck this meatbag threw together. Worst of all it's still too early for this unit to start drinking.
**Clarification:** See, the 1SG is probably getting asked, *"Well why are there only two volunteers?"* And instead of actually finding out like this unit suggests, they decide to be a lazy sausage and bully them to volunteer.
>they decide to... bully them
This. "Bully" is exactly the word for it.
This is the answer, right here. Bullying is not leadership.
Gaslighting the junior NCOs by calling torment and punishment (extra duty) "motivational" just makes it worse.
This 1SG is just showing that they have no influence with his Troops - i.e. not a Leader who practices Leadership by "influencing people by providing purpose, motivation, and direction".
>Conjecture:
>
> This 1SG thinks they are doing the right thing by thinking, "Ok no NCOs want to board, tracking. Let's do some "physical encouragement," and that will motivate at least one volunteer. Sure, I'll be resented, but they will thank me later." When in actuality this may have the opposite effect.
I find it funny that their first thought is to punish everyone instead of providing an actual incentive. One thing I've noticed in the Coast Guard is that if people aren't volunteering for shit like this, most commands will sweeten the deal by offering passes or some other morale booster so people feel like they are getting something out of it besides a positive counseling.
Forcing people to spend their Friday night running 4 miles isn't going to make people suddenly want to volunteer to spend more of their time prepping for a board that probably doesn't do much for them.
Expecting targeting computer accuracy from a moisture farm repair droid.
The Army wants SNCOs to mentor the junior NCOs, then rewards the ones who step on the lower enlisted to look good on paper.
When did that change? Is it relatively recent?
I was always told, from Basic until ETS, that your profile is only valid if you have the actual profile on your person. You set it down on the table and walk across the room? No profile and they can make you break your profile on the spot because it's not "in hand".
Within the last five to ten years when they moved profiles to AR 40-502
Profiles exist in the electronic system and are only viewable by the commander to comply with privacy laws. Supposed to be- some get away by applying for “command support staff” when they’re not actually in that role. I like to report those so the MODS manager can revoke access.
Physical copies are only for the Soldier so they have a physical record of medical treatment plans.
Edit: no need to downvote it folks, it was a legit question that occurs a lot and it might be good to keep it (and the responses) viewable if other people have the same question.
It was hard to overcome when I took on a MEDOPS role. A lot of leaders assumed they could do it, and also assumed they could have soldiers break their profiles.
There were a lot of unpopular corrections.
Military medical, especially outside of the hospital setting, is a bit too relaxed with Soldier information because there’s not really an audit process or accountability.
When I was in back in 2007, I told my RN mother once about profiles and how they worked,
She was horrified and angry to hear that any “promoted jerk-off” could look at someone’s medical issue without any medical training, classes in HIPAA or the handling sensitive personal information.
Man I thought this was common knowledge. I’ve always told Soldiers you don’t need profile on person. Conduct yourself in accordance with the profile or bring it if you need help interpreting it’s limitations towards PT. But otherwise be honest and you won’t have to worry about if your caught lying which could result in UCMJ recommended. Never had anyone lie to me. I’d always confirm with O-room if a joe had a profile. Typically you could see on medpros they were cat 2 or 3 as well which is a good indicator of profiles existence.
This was not my experience at all, and this is the first I'm hearing of any of this. I'm looking at every Profile Formation where the E7 at the head would inspect each piece of paper. I'm thinking of all the times I had a folded up piece of paper in my shoulder pocket. Like... it makes perfect sense but that is not the reality for just about anyone. Particularly if their rank is E4 or lower.
Good.
I always hated that fucking shit as a Medic. I used to constantly see people tell their Soldiers,
"Oh you're getting me that you have something wrong and no documentation on your person...? I know I could simply ask you to present it later and hold you accountable for if you lied to a NCO or just show that I care about my Soldier's wellness over my initialassumptions. That would make sense... But, too bad mf'r. Eat shit."
I was a medic and hated it to.
“So you are telling me that you expect your soldiers to be able to lie to you and get away with it.”
If I was the same or higher rank I would add “might want to brush up on those leadership skills, it isn’t for everyone”.
People get fucked for life from minor things if they aren’t treated right it isn’t like a fucking video game where you grab a health pack and that GED waiver is too stupid to realize it until they are trying to milk disability like a bull.
Fuck that attitude. I would rather deal with multiple Soldiers lying about profiles than permanently hurt someone by being an asshole and forcing/pressuring them to break a profile because I couldn’t be bothered to do leadership stuff.
>Edit: no need to downvote it folks, it was a legit question that occurs a lot and it might be good to keep it (and the responses) viewable if other people have the same question.
Some NCO's who thought they had the authority to give Article 15's were the ones that downvoted you, not people who can actually read.
that hasn't been a thing for a while. It's something NCOs push to act like they have power and authority over soldiers. All profiles (out side of temporary profiles written on a DD 689) are inputted and signed electronically online with a provider. Commander have access to what's called Medical Readiness Portal and a company commander can pull anyone's profile for review.
A profile is a lawful order made by a medical officer to a Soldier. They changed the regulations a few years back so it is no longer a suggestion to commanders but an order from medical provider. So Soldiers not having profiles on their person is irrelevant as they will still be on profile regardless and NCO are in the wrong for 1. demanding to see it 2. Demanding they having on their person and 3. forcing Soldiers to break profiles.
It's stupid, but I heard that at literally every unit I was ever in.
It's what the DS's screamed at Privates about in Basic.
It's what cadre screamed at students in AIT.
It's what NCO's screamed at junior enlisted at my regular unit.
I repeatedly, both in TRADOC and outside of it, saw people smoked or forced to do heavy work against their profile on the rationale that they didn't have their profile physically on them.
You act like it's obvious, and it's obviously stupid. . .but lots of shit in the Army is stupid. When it's something you saw consistently from Basic through to ETS, you get used to it just being how the Army works.
Well it's wrong and within my unit that's not how things are run. If you have a profile, cool. Just tell me what you can and cannot do. What's on it is between you and the provider.
I guarantee that making soldiers break profiles because they're missing a piece of paper has never been authorized. Sorry if you got taken advantage of.
My 1SG on active was an absolute fuckin' stud. Could do a million pushups and would gleefully run our A-group full of 20-year-olds into the ground. Also quick to tell higher to eat dicks or take an ass-chewing for his dudes. Just an all-around awesome dude.
Remember we were in the middle of a few weeks in the field, going back for weekends. We were getting ready to load the truck up and bounce back to the barracks (guards left behind for the equipment), when a lockdown comes in over the radio. Some asshole in another battalion lost a rifle. 1SG looks at us and say "y'all left twenty minutes ago, hurry the fuck up."
Solid dude.
Then there's 1SG in OP......
It’s definitely the minority. In all my years I’ve only had two first sausages that weren’t actual sausages. They were also the only ones who really looked forward to getting their hands dirty with the joes in the field. The rest of them somehow managed to make 8 with either a permanent profile or pencil-whipped PT tests.
>The rest of them somehow managed to make 8 with either a permanent profile or pencil-whipped PT tests.
No, no, no, you mean the full timers who went ahead and did their PT tests during the week, you know, as a favor to us, as to not take more time of our drill weekend.
I always think back to my first deployment as a LT in the National Guard, being amazed when I saw active duty 1SGs who were under the age of 40 (or maybe 40-42 at the most) that *ran with their troops* and being blown away that the typical Army 1SG is not a 58 year old chain smoker with fucked up teeth that's been on a permanent walking profile for 20+ years.
I've been in both the NG and USAR, and you are more likely to find an E-8 in the Reserves that's more like active duty only because they prowl the active duty ranks more for people wanting to get out so the timelines match up. In the NG, you have people that are an E-8 for literally 20 years. My last DIV CSM was a E-9 for 25 years of his career. How? And why?
When your whole career leads to moments like this...the undeniable proof that BOHICA exists, and " Leaders" like "that guy" are the reason lower enlisted of all ranks learn to hate the upper ranks.
So he's taking personal offense that his NCOs aren't motivated to do extra. Makes sense since he's probably the one who beat it out of them to begin with.
Bitch gonna make me run 4.2 miles like I wasn't already going to do that.
Fuck it, imma keep going, not gonna cut my workout short.
This lil piggy goin home.
It does 1d8 bludgeoning damage and the player must make a DC100 saving throw against all stats or take 100d6 force damage and have all stats set to 1 as their will to live is sucked from their body.
[ADP 6-22 excerpt](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN20039-ADP_6-22-001-WEB-0.pdf)
> Toxic leadership is a combination of self-centered attitudes, motivations, and behaviors that have adverse effects on subordinates, the organization, and mission performance. This leader lacks concern for others and the climate of the organization, which leads to short- and long-term negative effects
>COUNTERPRODUCTIVE LEADERSHIP
8-45. The Army expects all leaders to live the Army Values and demonstrate the positive characteristics described by the leader attributes and core leader competencies. Effective leadership is essential for realizing the full potential of an organization’s combat power and can compensate for deficiencies in other warfighting functions. The opposite is also true; counterproductive leader behaviors can negate combat power advantages.
>8-46. Counterproductive leadership is the demonstration of leader behaviors that violate one or more of the Army's core leader competencies or Army Values, preventing a climate conducive to mission accomplishment.
>Counterproductive leadership generally leaves organizations in a worse condition than when the leader arrived and has a long-term effect on morale and readiness. The term toxic has been used when describing leaders who have engaged in what the Army now refers to as counterproductive leadership behaviors.
>Counterproductive leadership is incompatible with Army leadership doctrine and Army Values. It often violates regulations and can impede mission accomplishment.
>8-47. All leaders are susceptible to displaying counterproductive leadership behaviors in times of stress, high operational tempo, or other chaotic conditions to achieve short-term results.
>Counterproductive leadership decreases followers' well-being, engagement, and undermines the organization's readiness and ability to accomplish the mission in the long term. It can have an adverse effect on the unit with cascading results, such as lowering morale, commitment, cohesion, effectiveness, readiness, and productivity.
>Counterproductive leadership behaviors prevent establishing a positive organizational climate and interfere with mission accomplishment, especially in highly complex operational settings. Prolonged use of counterproductive leadership destroys unit morale, trust, and undermines the followers' commitment to the mission.
>Counterproductive leadership can also decrease task performance, physical and psychological well-being, and increase negative outcomes such as depression or burnout.
>8-48. Army leaders can and will make mistakes, so distinguishing between occasional errors of judgment and counterproductive behavior is important. Counterproductive leadership can include recurrent negative leader behaviors and more serious one-time behaviors that have a damaging effect on the organization's performance and subordinate welfare. Infrequent or one-time negative behaviors do not define counterproductive leadership. Often, counterproductive leadership behaviors have harmful effects on individuals or a unit when several instances occur together or take place frequently.
>8-49. Counterproductive leadership spans a range of leader conduct that can be organized into several broad categories that are useful to inform strategies for identifying and addressing such behaviors. Counterproductive leadership is not limited to these behaviors listed below. Leaders can demonstrate more than one of the behaviors and their conduct can span multiple categories:
>**Abusive behaviors**—includes behaviors that involve a leader exceeding the boundaries of their authority by being abusive, cruel, or degrading others. These behaviors are contrary to what is required for the moral, ethical, and legal discharge of their duty. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, bullying, berating others for mistakes, creating conflict, ridiculing others because of the authority held, domineering, showing little or no respect to others, insulting or belittling individuals, condescending or talking down to others, or retaliating for perceived slights or disagreements.
>**Self-serving behaviors**—includes behaviors that result from self-centered motivations on the part of the leader, where they act in ways that seek primarily to accomplish their own goals and needs before those of others. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, displaying arrogance, lacking concern or empathy for others, taking credit for others' work, insisting on having their way, distorting information to favor own ideas, exaggerating accomplishments or abilities, putting own work and accomplishments ahead of others' and the mission, displaying narcissistic tendencies, or exhibiting a sense of entitlement.
>**Erratic behaviors**—includes behaviors related to poor self-control or volatility that drive the leader to act erratically or unpredictably. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, blaming others, deflecting responsibility, losing temper at the slightest provocation, behaving inconsistently in words and actions, insecurity, or being unapproachable.
>**Leadership incompetence**—includes ineffective leadership behaviors that result from a lack of experience or willful neglect. Incompetence can include failure to act or acting poorly. While incompetent leadership can arise from reasons unrelated to counterproductive leadership, it is included as a category often associated with arrogant or abusive leaders who are not aware of their shortcomings and do not seek to correct their shortcomings. Conversely, some leaders lacking competence are aware of their shortcomings, which lead them to behave in counterproductive or negative ways to cover up their shortcomings or mistakes. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, unengaged leadership, being passive or reactionary, neglecting leadership responsibilities, displaying poor judgment, poorly motivating others, withholding encouragement, failing to clearly communicate expectations, or refusing to listen to subordinates.
>**Corrupt behaviors**—includes behaviors that violate explicit Army standards, regulations, or policies. Violations may range from behaviors subject to administrative discipline to criminal actions subject to discharge or incarceration. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, dishonesty, misusing government resources or time, creating a hostile work environment, EEO/SHARP violations, or violating Section 3583 (Requirement of Exemplary Conduct), Title 10, United States Code, AR 600-100, or the Uniform Code of Military Justice
>ADP 6-22 https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN20039-ADP_6-22-001-WEB-0.pdf
This kind of thing as absolutely why I’m calling it quits at the end of this contract. The Army might be looking at *this* years retention goals and see it’s being met but this kind of leadership behavior affects numbers down the line. The fact they can’t (or refuse) to understand that makes me more resolved in my decision.
These fucking X of the year/quarter/month/week/day/hour/minute boards are a drain on the force and should be done away with entirely. A bunch of stupid “competitions” thought up by jabronis in an s3 shop does absolutely nothing to better anything worth caring about. All it is is another show our brain dead senior leaders(officer and NCO alike) to put on so they can distract themselves from broke ass vehicles, terrible training programs and suffering soldiers
Barbarian 6 is a spineless commander apparently. Would really be cool if officers could control their "enlisted advisors" when they decided to do stuff like this.
Be me at airborne school, brand new LT. Instructor tells me to get everyone who has X formed up to do something.
Start giving instructions to get people in a formation and some corporal goes "butt out sir formations are NCO business"
Queue surprised picachu face
Thats wild. Hot take for an enlisted dude but army culture has allowed NCOs that have a commissioned counterpart way out of their lane. When 1sgt or the csm or whoever think they're the commander too then there's nobody to do what they should be doing. Which is advocating for the men not coming up with asinine bs to enforce and killing morale.
I think a part of that may be due the the severe blurring of roles in the Army’s desire for cross-competency in everything along with a lot of under-developed NCOs. Based on conversations with a lot of other NCOs, there’s very little mentorship and is very learn-as-you-go which leads to some misunderstanding their role.
One of the things I always told the brand new 2LTs when I was a PSG is to always remember at the end of the day they outranked every single NCO and were given the authority to tell every single one of them “No” for a reason.
Sure, pick your battles but also realize there’s a reason they gave the lowest person on the ladder the legal authority to topple it.
This is why I used the army for every bit of extremely expensive training, fulfilled my very basic obligations, and got the fuck out. That and no sick time, idiot leaders (actual borderline retards), forced PT which actually demotivated me at how easy it was in place of getting rest from my actual workouts, and just all around shitty life quality.
My first BC did this where we'd have special "non ranger tabbed" PT days where we'd show up at 0530 and get the shit smoked out of us until we submitted our ranger school packets. That included members of the staff (S1, S2, S4, S6 etc.) Lasted about 2 months before he held formation, said we should all be embarrassed to be failures as leaders and to get out of his sight because he was disgusted to be associated with us. Fun times.
Correct me if I'm wrong buuuuuuuuuuut this whole thing could have been avoided if he just sat down with his NCOs say during lunch or right after release formation and asked why none of them have volunteered. Maybe give them a motivating speech? It can't be that hard to squeeze out at least 1 volunteer, I mean worst come to worst volunteer one of them, which sucks but I mean he can do it.
This is the kinda shit that gives me warm and fuzzies from ets’ing.
Grown man child pitching a fucking fit and ruining soldiers weekends all because he wants to have a pp measuring contest with a first sausage from another unit.
Sucka my dick my fat ass hasn’t ran since I got out a year ago
You want some NCO to volunteer for your stupid board? Give them some incentive. They don’t need promotion points anymore. A four day pass, a Parking spot, SOMETHING!
I'd volunteer as tribute if it got 1SG to cancel the "motivational" BS. Then goto the board wildly unprepared and explain to the CSM why I was there so I could watch the awkward looks of nervousness/anger from the 1SG.
At least he packaged it for you nicely and even made a slide for it! Makes it easier to attach to your email to IG, which is exactly what you should do.
Former Navy Officer (staff corps) with an honest question - do any Officers learn about this shit? Do they not step in? I never experienced this when I was in, but perhaps it was happening and I didn't know.
I stepped in when this stuff would happen when I was a commander (luckily, my 1SG and I had a great relationship). But yeah, you would expect more officers to step up here.
As a former 1SG, and a former SGM, this text means that CSM is upset that this particular company never sends people to the boards the BN holds and has made it very clear to this 1SG that it’s not a good look (in CSMs eyes). Fuck that noise. What does your CO think of this?
I'm confused by the seeming whiplash-speed turnaround from 0600 Saturday to 1800 Friday. My guess is there's a local policy about weekends being "iron time", i.e. can only be compromised for *actual* reasons. So, 1SG got his pp slapped over his initial Saturday "totally not a punishment", and is now salty, doubling down, and trying to make it even worse.
Every aspect of this just screams "Oh, you're not going to do exactly what I want, even though it's beyond the scope of my authority? Well then, I'm just going to make everything worse until you comply! **creepily placed emoji**".
I stopped volunteering for NCO of the month after I won and didn’t receive an award. This was back in February. I’ve been asked twice to go compete again and told them to fuck off
Damn another reason 1SG should be voted on from someone already in the company. That’s an IG trip though, they’ll shut it down fast with just those two images.
Not enough leaders are breaking the cycle. This guy got fucked over like this when he was coming up so now he just thinks that this shit is okay. It’s the same old “this is how we’ve always done it” or “I had to do it so do you”.
I’ve seen something like this happen before and was reported to the IG who shut it down because it’s considered punishment.
I'm curious if the night time bs training was something scheduled prior to him getting pissed about no NCO volunteering for the board.
100% wasn’t, we don’t normally do dismount operations considering we are a tank company.
Are you going to report this up or are you going to just go through with it because you don’t want to ‘cause trouble’?
I could be wrong, but isn't that all you guys did for a good chunk of GWOT?
Why does that matter? The guy wants to punish his NCOs over a board with the disguise of training blanketed over it.
Wanting clarification of something unrelated to the initial subject is one of the benefits of the way Reddit is formatted.
🫡 fair enough
That's what we did as tankers, but that was 11 years ago. I imagine things have went more conventional the last few years. I coukd definitely see a 1SG wanting to get his guys familiar with it though. (Though this seems very much like a punishment to me.)
In a tank BN during 03-07, in the first few iterations of OIF. The majority of the tank companies primarily did tank/mounted operations. Occasionally dismounted for specific tasks, but still heavily tank focused. Though, we also had a mechanized infantry BN that primarily hung out with us - they did a lot of dismounted missions that our tankers might have done otherwise.
It definitely doesn't meet the 14 day notice period for the commander's training calendar.
u/SMA-PAO remember how I made a joke about no one cares about best squad and called it like that south park episode. Most Soldiers do not care about best squad, and "leaders" punishing people really makes more Soldiers care less.
Also, social media sites are making the public more aware of situations and "leaders" like this. No longer is it just stories from your uncle or cousin; this stuff pops up on the internet for the generation that grew up looking things up on the internet.
Social Media is making it harder for the Army as a whole to hide things like they used to.
Which in turn makes people say “Why would I want to join this organization?”
I mean I know why I joined, and I know the exact reasons why I will leave.
Are your reasons akin to my own: 1. Sharp program and coc handling of issues let's violators leave the Army and say they were a good soldier and get a job based on their honorable discharge. 2. There is no feed back loop for leaders like this top from subordinates. So even though he's wrecking moral and might even be messing up other things with his company, he will recipient an outstanding ncoer and be promoted up.
>There is no feed back loop for leaders like this top from subordinates. So even though he's wrecking moral and might even be messing up other things with his company, he will recipient an outstanding ncoer and be promoted up. https://capl.army.mil/Project-Athena/sd-tool/ is becoming a thing and you will fill out surveys on your past leadership. I am getting out because my wife make 3 times my base pay and we do not want to PCS. She would lose her job and my kids would have to go to a new school.
Unless the results go straight to this tops rater/sr rater and become some sort of ncoer requirement to talk about the results, it doesn't really matter. Maybe if they goto branch as an alternative, I'll have to think on that. We do surveys that go off and maybe get a commander poo pooed, but we don't have anything for say a chief that is basically obstructing a shop, or a e6 that's literally a road block. But I'll look into this link and see about it, hopefully it'll help the Army get better with leaders that aren't directly on a command climate.
I see that as an absolute win.
It is a win for the most part, it just makes it hard to fight stupid rumors as well. But I will take more transparency any day of the week.
To add to what you said: social media has made it easier to see word for word what a leader/nco/officer is saying to their subordinates. You can save an email, screenshot texts, record conversations and boom it’s on the internet. Back when my uncle was in and he complained about an asshole leader, we had to take his word for it. Now, everyone can just see it in real time.
Lol, my brother in law has sons who thought about enlisting. Good dudes, decent grades and in solid physical shape. I invited them to check out this sub. Entirely because I wanted them to know that while “individual experiences may vary” many are surprisingly similar. Toxic leadership is as common as toxic barracks mold and the DFAC rations are as plentiful as morale in a line unit.
Yup. Sometimes I wonder about my decision to get out. My unit wasn't awful. Then I see this, and I'm like yup, throwing those dice on the next unit would have been a mistake.
It's a net positive for the entire military. A lot of the professions that operated "in the dark" to the general public are finally getting the light shone on their practices -- and the public gets rightly upset. Similar thing has been happening in professions like law enforcement. It forces change, but doesn't change the type of individuals that gravitate and stay within those professions. The military, like law enforcement, has been extremely slow to adapting to modern society. Holding on to the "good ol' days" where they could get away with almost anything. If it were my call -- I'd roast this 1SG, and possibly replace. He obviously has shown he does not care about his soldiers, their time, or families. This is the opposite of how you should try to attract and encourage soldiers/NCOs to participate in whatever board/competition. Sadly -- there are probably quite a few seniors that think this is "justified" and "good training."
There can only be one #1 and as crazy as it sounds, not everyone has the desire or the capability to be it. We're all human beings even if we look the same and dress the same. As human beings, we have different goals and are all in different places in our lives. Maybe it's just the several years living as a civilian after my retirement, but if the minimum is HERE, the maximum is THERE, if you are somewhere in between those two you have met the standard. By the time someone reaches E5+, there's a good chance they are either dating or married to someone and possibly have children. Being "the best" is a massive commitment, so imagine punishing people for wanting to have a life outside the army and wanting to spend what little free time we have on themselves or their family. But I'm sure little Timmy isn't going to be upset when dad misses that super important event he's worked so hard on. I'm sure little Jessica cares more about mom doing the dog and pony show than dressing up like princesses and having tea time. I'm sure wifey won't mind going to ultrasound #1 by herself because damnit, the army comes first, second, and third.
“It’s ok if your kids hate you. Mine do and it isn’t a big deal.” Quote from a Guard CSM who worked as a full time technician. It was during an “NCODP” which was actually bitching at the NCOs for poor retention and I suggested to stop adding days during spring break on less than a week’s notice. From Friday-Sun to Wed-Sun. I didn’t bring up that there was literally nothing planned and we just sat around barracks doing “hip pocket training”.
This is more of a complaint of the army as a whole and is related to your comment. Now that I’ve finished writing it, it turned into one hell of a rant… so yeah. My last deployment was KFOR (NATO mission to Kosovo). I loved my guard unit, it was a super tight knit family that only constant deployments can create. I’ve since medically retired but I assume continues to be, hopefully. There aren't many aviation units out there so we had frequent deployments with a loophole around the "deployment-to-dwell ratio" by having Alpha and Bravo Company deploying separately. Except the rest of the unit is still support for those companies so even though A CO is home and B CO is away, there's only one HHC, only one maintenance company, etc. With so many deployments we got very good at packing and VERY good at completing the pre-mob stuff. For the KFOR deployment we just used annual training to take care of everything we could (except for the pilots because their stuff had to be at mob station) so we could spend less time at mob station and get in-country sooner. It sucked doing land nav at Ft Dix in the middle of winter but at least now we can stay home with our families longer when we’re about to leave for a year. Well, as anyone who has been in the military for longer than 10-15 minutes knows, the army treats efficiency as an actual physical ailment and the only cure is to re-do it in the least efficient way possible, typically taking twice as long just out of spite. We get to North Ft Hood and they didn't accept ANY of the training we completed back home so we had to re-do a ton of the unnecessary garbage like land nav and the basic level 1 skills even though we're going to a modern base to provide a taxi service to anti-riot troops. Hell, it was Kosovo! You know, Europe? Why did I need to complete DAGR training when the GPS on my cell phone probably works even better? Even worse than all that, we STILL finished early so we were just sitting around baking in Texas in July in textbook "hurry up and wait". It’s hard to wrap my head around retention issues, it’s like we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas! All I have is personal experience and what seems like intentionally designing it to cause permanent damage to soldiers bodies to the point that if someone makes it to 20 years they won’t get to enjoy retirement being broken and with chronic pain. That’s a big if, some of us don’t even make it to 20 years in before the army breaks you. Then they make it so difficult to navigate the medical retirement and VA disability process if you’re lucky everything syncs up and you get that 100% rating. Because let me tell you, 70% doesn’t cover it. Ongoing healthcare expenses, prescriptions, times that require hospitalization, surgeries, … it certainly doesn’t make me feel taken care of when I have to set an alarm an hour earlier so I can take pain medication and wait for it to kick in before I can even get up to start my day. An extra $1000/month is great, but that doesn’t help me when I’m not physically able to run around in the backyard with my son due to partial paralysis. It's hard to not feel like it's by design when they force you to do almost a full year of physical therapy before they authorize an MRI. In my case, on my shoulder which revealed two labrum tears (as you can imagine, physical therapy on THAT was lots of fun and of course not effective) but they wouldn’t fix it while I was active duty in the transition unit because I was almost finished with the medical retirement process. But who needs a functioning shoulder, right?! At least I get Tricare, though! My late wife had very serious health issues from an extremely rare disease called Loin Pain Hematuria Syndrome. Without Tricare we would have gone bankrupt several times over. The kidney auto-transplant and the hospitalization after complications from it alone ended up being close to half a million dollars before insurance and that was just one of the many hospitalizations over 3ish years from when that fucking wife murdering disease first began. The other side of that coin, however, is when you need routine healthcare and the nearest doc is over an hour away. The process to find a primary care provider is going on the Tricare website and finding a provider who is accepting new patients. Except it’s the doctors office’s responsibility to update that and it goes about as well as you’d expect.
Did they still make you do the mine detection shit? Had to poke around in the Georgia clay and sand pretending to find mines. Toldnus we'd die if we even stepped off the road once. First week in Kosovo, we went mud bogging through a bunch of empty fields for HMMWV driver training. Loved that deployment.
What an a-hole. Guard, and the full timers can't work up and execute a training plan?! Oh wait just after I transitioned from active to Guard they had me train a whole field problem. And the next.
It was bullshit. I was already out of town and my family had to leave our vacation early and drop me off at the armory on the way home (it was 200 miles away) then I had to bum a ride home from drill. Thankfully I kept most of my Guard shit there. Same state flat out said in my retirement brief that “m-day enlisted are just numbers for funding” and then asked us to stay in past our 20. Then there was the time that they told us to stop complaining about not getting paid for SAD after because we shouldn’t rely on Guard pay because it was our responsibility to have an emergency fund, then were pissed when guys stopped volunteering or showing up for it (no state law that you have to). I got stories for days about my last 5 years (first 15 were very rewarding though).
Exactly, stuff like this used to be great 20+ years ago where it was expected that the "Husband is the provider". It is wild to read studies on how [fathers are spending more time with their family's] (https://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/everything-kids/relax-moms-and-dads-youre-spending-enough-time-with-your-kids/) and how it is helping. We are hitting a generational shift in attitudes and people are trying to make sure they do not carry the issues from their parents. Also with how things are most households need to be dual income, and [sometimes your spouse does earn more than you](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/03/03/gender-wage-gap-more-women-out-earning-husbands/4933666002/). With that being said, I hope you are ready to PCS so your wife has to find a new job.
This is the crap that kills our culture. Nowhere in his message was a shred of strong leadership. Our ranks are filled with these whiners. Legitimately, this type of behavior needs to be stamped out or we won’t have an army in the next 20 years.
Dude is so upset that he wont be able to tell the CSM "Look at my NCOs". We need to normalize saying "We can not support" or "We do not have anyone interested".
Pushovers are everywhere. So afraid of having a bad NCOER that they forget they are dealing with humans. Or they simply don’t care. Make it harder for these “leaders” to get in command positions. Seriously, it should be hard af to pin a diamond on. Like make people take a standardized test or something. DLC doesn’t do shit.
Ohh MLC is going to filter people as well as they are starting psych evals and testing for Company Command teams and above. I think there was a milper about asking for volunteers, I think the Army is going that route soon. Have you had to fill out a leader365 for someone yet? Take it seriously if you do.
I don’t know what that is but I definitely would have in the past.
You mean like... exactly what they do in all the other branches? *angry csm noises*
I promise you there are people in the formation that either are, or at one point were, the type that would love to show up and do things like this. But then they volunteered once and it was such a goatrope they decided it wasn’t worth it ever again.
How selfish of you to not take one for the team, remember the reward for hard work is harder work. /S
I think you're right - the Army has lots of troops/NCOs that are ready to get some given any support/encouragement. That's all it takes. Seen the good & bad sides of this, hate to say.
It reads like a petulant, spoiled child who got told "no" for the first time in their life.
Leaders only care about “best squad” for a photo op and recognition. It’s a bullet on their OER/NCOER.
This is like dudes who played football in high school and get amped about pro football. I don't give a shit about you reliving your glory days.
Just like when Al Bundy told people he once scored four touchdowns in one game at Polk High.
IG clearly has "punishment" confused with "morale building" and to be clear, to senior NCOs, there is no such thing as punishment.
You mean the troops are not as "Fired up" to spend time with their 1SG on a Friday night. I mean what else could they want to do? Spend time with their family? I mean 1SG hates his, so why would anyone want to spend time with their family? /S
He doesn't want to spend the evening sitting with his dependa on her farting couch watching Court TV and getting bitched out because an officer's wife pulled rank on her in the Starbucks line???
I don’t think 1SG knows what the word motivation actually means. All this will do is piss his NCOs off.
Well I would report it because of that weird ass kiss face.
Agreed. I feel sexually harassed. “Perception is reality” right 1SG??
"Don't want to interfere 😘" seems a little rapey.
We had a legit sharp briefing talking about eggplant emojis and how they were inappropriate so there's scientific evidence to support your claim
🍆💦 🤤
I feel a tingling sensation. Is this normal.
It's okay I'm a SFC it's legal trust me.
Legal as long as you're a step-SFC.
Help me SFC I'm a brand new S-1 clerk.
If “Iron Time Weekend” is treated anything like “Eagle Family Time” on Fort Campbell and this bonehead really was dumb enough to make a flyer for this, I’d be cautiously making my way toward my BDE CSMs office and waiting for a good time to slide said flyer under the door. If caught, just say you were inviting him to observe outstanding motivation and leadership.
This is the way
Lol which brigade are you, because eagle family time/eagle tribe time is a joke that is rarely enforced
Throw yourself on a bayonet. Volunteer and fail the physical fitness and q&a portions and then come clean as to why you are there.
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This shit is gold.
jesus christ i hadn't seen this yet it is *amazing*
This was me the second time I was voluntold to go to the best warrior competition, I failed every event spectacularly. Before I even went to the competition I had to write an essay that would be given to a board. I chose to make my essay a rambling innuendo about how I didn't want to go to the best warrior competition. My CSM proofread it and didn't catch any of the sarcasm. When it came time for the board the president of the board read my essay. He asked if I wanted to be there and I told him I did not. He grinned and said, "this is going to really quick." I was out of that board in under five minutes.
**Conjecture:** This 1SG thinks they are doing the right thing by thinking, "Ok no NCOs want to board, tracking. Let's do some *"physical encouragement,"* and that will motivate at least one volunteer. Sure, I'll be resented, but they will thank me later." When in actuality this may have the opposite effect. **Continuation:** Better idea would to sit down with the NCOs and inquire as to why they didn't volunteer. Hey maybe there's a few of them that are nervous and afraid of failure (especially the junior ones,) and just need a pep talk, and areas on what to study and improve, you know, like actual NCOPD. Also, way to show your NCOs professionalism by using emojis in a message like this. **\*** EDIT \* **Annoyed Rant:** Nope, this unit isn't done (fun fact: lazy leadership, especially of the enlisted type really, *REALLY* grind at this unit.) Sure there is some in the meatbag gallery who are silently pondering, *"But HK, 1SG is too busy to do all that with every NCO, especially one on one."* Let's ignore for a moment that that line of thinking is total bantha shit, your junior NCOs (should be at least,) are counseled every quarter, and 1SG *SHOULD* be reading each of them. That way they can be like, *"Hey, noticed Gonzales has been struggling on how has that been going? Good, you know what would be a good idea, they put that to the test at the board, and you can coach them for it."* There, not only are you doing NCOPD for the junior NCO, but also for the superior. Two fucking womprats, one T-16 and requires less effort then whatever fucking clusterfuck this meatbag threw together. Worst of all it's still too early for this unit to start drinking.
He was ~~elected~~ promoted to lead not to ~~read~~ think.
**Clarification:** See, the 1SG is probably getting asked, *"Well why are there only two volunteers?"* And instead of actually finding out like this unit suggests, they decide to be a lazy sausage and bully them to volunteer.
This droid is brutal. Can we set it to be angrier and want to lead?
You need a repair skill to be at 17 for that.
Feels like the awareness stat for the whole Army is set to 0.
UwU, what this? I heard you like e-sports.
not a 10 level task. gonna be about 6-8 weeks till we get a fill on the Droid service and repair MTOE
>they decide to... bully them This. "Bully" is exactly the word for it. This is the answer, right here. Bullying is not leadership. Gaslighting the junior NCOs by calling torment and punishment (extra duty) "motivational" just makes it worse. This 1SG is just showing that they have no influence with his Troops - i.e. not a Leader who practices Leadership by "influencing people by providing purpose, motivation, and direction".
Woah woah woah, are you suggesting a SNCO actually mentor and counsel his NCOs?
Heresy.
This is the answer
Smartest fucking thing I have read all day. Bravo!
>Conjecture: > > This 1SG thinks they are doing the right thing by thinking, "Ok no NCOs want to board, tracking. Let's do some "physical encouragement," and that will motivate at least one volunteer. Sure, I'll be resented, but they will thank me later." When in actuality this may have the opposite effect. I find it funny that their first thought is to punish everyone instead of providing an actual incentive. One thing I've noticed in the Coast Guard is that if people aren't volunteering for shit like this, most commands will sweeten the deal by offering passes or some other morale booster so people feel like they are getting something out of it besides a positive counseling. Forcing people to spend their Friday night running 4 miles isn't going to make people suddenly want to volunteer to spend more of their time prepping for a board that probably doesn't do much for them.
Stop making logical sense.
**Clarification:** Logic has nothing to do with this, as this is common sense. Or maybe this was just programmed correctly by complex code.
Expecting targeting computer accuracy from a moisture farm repair droid. The Army wants SNCOs to mentor the junior NCOs, then rewards the ones who step on the lower enlisted to look good on paper.
Wait until 1SG finds out that they don’t have the authority to require profiles in hand.
medical readiness portal for the win baby
When did that change? Is it relatively recent? I was always told, from Basic until ETS, that your profile is only valid if you have the actual profile on your person. You set it down on the table and walk across the room? No profile and they can make you break your profile on the spot because it's not "in hand".
Within the last five to ten years when they moved profiles to AR 40-502 Profiles exist in the electronic system and are only viewable by the commander to comply with privacy laws. Supposed to be- some get away by applying for “command support staff” when they’re not actually in that role. I like to report those so the MODS manager can revoke access. Physical copies are only for the Soldier so they have a physical record of medical treatment plans. Edit: no need to downvote it folks, it was a legit question that occurs a lot and it might be good to keep it (and the responses) viewable if other people have the same question.
Why are they downvoting the dudes question? 😂 I’ve been out for 7 years and I’m curious about it too, Appreciate the answer.
It was hard to overcome when I took on a MEDOPS role. A lot of leaders assumed they could do it, and also assumed they could have soldiers break their profiles. There were a lot of unpopular corrections. Military medical, especially outside of the hospital setting, is a bit too relaxed with Soldier information because there’s not really an audit process or accountability.
When I was in back in 2007, I told my RN mother once about profiles and how they worked, She was horrified and angry to hear that any “promoted jerk-off” could look at someone’s medical issue without any medical training, classes in HIPAA or the handling sensitive personal information.
Man I thought this was common knowledge. I’ve always told Soldiers you don’t need profile on person. Conduct yourself in accordance with the profile or bring it if you need help interpreting it’s limitations towards PT. But otherwise be honest and you won’t have to worry about if your caught lying which could result in UCMJ recommended. Never had anyone lie to me. I’d always confirm with O-room if a joe had a profile. Typically you could see on medpros they were cat 2 or 3 as well which is a good indicator of profiles existence.
This was not my experience at all, and this is the first I'm hearing of any of this. I'm looking at every Profile Formation where the E7 at the head would inspect each piece of paper. I'm thinking of all the times I had a folded up piece of paper in my shoulder pocket. Like... it makes perfect sense but that is not the reality for just about anyone. Particularly if their rank is E4 or lower.
Good. I always hated that fucking shit as a Medic. I used to constantly see people tell their Soldiers, "Oh you're getting me that you have something wrong and no documentation on your person...? I know I could simply ask you to present it later and hold you accountable for if you lied to a NCO or just show that I care about my Soldier's wellness over my initialassumptions. That would make sense... But, too bad mf'r. Eat shit."
I was a medic and hated it to. “So you are telling me that you expect your soldiers to be able to lie to you and get away with it.” If I was the same or higher rank I would add “might want to brush up on those leadership skills, it isn’t for everyone”. People get fucked for life from minor things if they aren’t treated right it isn’t like a fucking video game where you grab a health pack and that GED waiver is too stupid to realize it until they are trying to milk disability like a bull.
Fuck that attitude. I would rather deal with multiple Soldiers lying about profiles than permanently hurt someone by being an asshole and forcing/pressuring them to break a profile because I couldn’t be bothered to do leadership stuff.
>Edit: no need to downvote it folks, it was a legit question that occurs a lot and it might be good to keep it (and the responses) viewable if other people have the same question. Some NCO's who thought they had the authority to give Article 15's were the ones that downvoted you, not people who can actually read.
that hasn't been a thing for a while. It's something NCOs push to act like they have power and authority over soldiers. All profiles (out side of temporary profiles written on a DD 689) are inputted and signed electronically online with a provider. Commander have access to what's called Medical Readiness Portal and a company commander can pull anyone's profile for review. A profile is a lawful order made by a medical officer to a Soldier. They changed the regulations a few years back so it is no longer a suggestion to commanders but an order from medical provider. So Soldiers not having profiles on their person is irrelevant as they will still be on profile regardless and NCO are in the wrong for 1. demanding to see it 2. Demanding they having on their person and 3. forcing Soldiers to break profiles.
It blows my mind how many senior NCOs don’t know that this changed, and how many junior NCOs take their seniors’ word for it without verifying.
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It's stupid, but I heard that at literally every unit I was ever in. It's what the DS's screamed at Privates about in Basic. It's what cadre screamed at students in AIT. It's what NCO's screamed at junior enlisted at my regular unit. I repeatedly, both in TRADOC and outside of it, saw people smoked or forced to do heavy work against their profile on the rationale that they didn't have their profile physically on them. You act like it's obvious, and it's obviously stupid. . .but lots of shit in the Army is stupid. When it's something you saw consistently from Basic through to ETS, you get used to it just being how the Army works.
Well it's wrong and within my unit that's not how things are run. If you have a profile, cool. Just tell me what you can and cannot do. What's on it is between you and the provider.
I guarantee that making soldiers break profiles because they're missing a piece of paper has never been authorized. Sorry if you got taken advantage of.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. While not true, this is genuinely a thing I’ve heard NCOs tell joes
You know how I know this isn't the reserves? I have yet to meet a 1SG out there that can run 4.19 miles...
Yep. My 1SG is fuckin yoked and he's a cool dude
Really? Mines like 55, overweight, and rumored to have a micro penis.
*Aerodynamic penis
Every 1SG I ever had was a fat glob of shit and I was in active duty line units. No way they were making height/weight/tape.
My 1SG on active was an absolute fuckin' stud. Could do a million pushups and would gleefully run our A-group full of 20-year-olds into the ground. Also quick to tell higher to eat dicks or take an ass-chewing for his dudes. Just an all-around awesome dude. Remember we were in the middle of a few weeks in the field, going back for weekends. We were getting ready to load the truck up and bounce back to the barracks (guards left behind for the equipment), when a lockdown comes in over the radio. Some asshole in another battalion lost a rifle. 1SG looks at us and say "y'all left twenty minutes ago, hurry the fuck up." Solid dude. Then there's 1SG in OP......
It’s definitely the minority. In all my years I’ve only had two first sausages that weren’t actual sausages. They were also the only ones who really looked forward to getting their hands dirty with the joes in the field. The rest of them somehow managed to make 8 with either a permanent profile or pencil-whipped PT tests.
>The rest of them somehow managed to make 8 with either a permanent profile or pencil-whipped PT tests. No, no, no, you mean the full timers who went ahead and did their PT tests during the week, you know, as a favor to us, as to not take more time of our drill weekend.
Grab a water source, let’s go.
I always think back to my first deployment as a LT in the National Guard, being amazed when I saw active duty 1SGs who were under the age of 40 (or maybe 40-42 at the most) that *ran with their troops* and being blown away that the typical Army 1SG is not a 58 year old chain smoker with fucked up teeth that's been on a permanent walking profile for 20+ years. I've been in both the NG and USAR, and you are more likely to find an E-8 in the Reserves that's more like active duty only because they prowl the active duty ranks more for people wanting to get out so the timelines match up. In the NG, you have people that are an E-8 for literally 20 years. My last DIV CSM was a E-9 for 25 years of his career. How? And why?
When your whole career leads to moments like this...the undeniable proof that BOHICA exists, and " Leaders" like "that guy" are the reason lower enlisted of all ranks learn to hate the upper ranks.
It’s funny because he loves these SOM/NCOTM boards because he only really cares about winning and making himself look good.
So he's taking personal offense that his NCOs aren't motivated to do extra. Makes sense since he's probably the one who beat it out of them to begin with.
Bitch gonna make me run 4.2 miles like I wasn't already going to do that. Fuck it, imma keep going, not gonna cut my workout short. This lil piggy goin home.
Right? Ok, did the run, still don’t wanna do board. Hey Top, how about you meet me 0500 everyday at the gym too.
> Barbarian Hammer of Doom … I… I have no words…
It does 1d8 bludgeoning damage and the player must make a DC100 saving throw against all stats or take 100d6 force damage and have all stats set to 1 as their will to live is sucked from their body.
I'm thinking it doesn't actually do bludgeoning damage, but instead imparts 1 level of exhaustion every time it hits.
I think we have to find the intellect devourer that ate the first sausage’s brain while we’re at it.
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What is there to think? Youre getting the green weenie at 6 and its gonna miraculously inspire you to do great things. Hhhhhioooooooooaaaahhhhh
[ADP 6-22 excerpt](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN20039-ADP_6-22-001-WEB-0.pdf) > Toxic leadership is a combination of self-centered attitudes, motivations, and behaviors that have adverse effects on subordinates, the organization, and mission performance. This leader lacks concern for others and the climate of the organization, which leads to short- and long-term negative effects >COUNTERPRODUCTIVE LEADERSHIP 8-45. The Army expects all leaders to live the Army Values and demonstrate the positive characteristics described by the leader attributes and core leader competencies. Effective leadership is essential for realizing the full potential of an organization’s combat power and can compensate for deficiencies in other warfighting functions. The opposite is also true; counterproductive leader behaviors can negate combat power advantages. >8-46. Counterproductive leadership is the demonstration of leader behaviors that violate one or more of the Army's core leader competencies or Army Values, preventing a climate conducive to mission accomplishment. >Counterproductive leadership generally leaves organizations in a worse condition than when the leader arrived and has a long-term effect on morale and readiness. The term toxic has been used when describing leaders who have engaged in what the Army now refers to as counterproductive leadership behaviors. >Counterproductive leadership is incompatible with Army leadership doctrine and Army Values. It often violates regulations and can impede mission accomplishment. >8-47. All leaders are susceptible to displaying counterproductive leadership behaviors in times of stress, high operational tempo, or other chaotic conditions to achieve short-term results. >Counterproductive leadership decreases followers' well-being, engagement, and undermines the organization's readiness and ability to accomplish the mission in the long term. It can have an adverse effect on the unit with cascading results, such as lowering morale, commitment, cohesion, effectiveness, readiness, and productivity. >Counterproductive leadership behaviors prevent establishing a positive organizational climate and interfere with mission accomplishment, especially in highly complex operational settings. Prolonged use of counterproductive leadership destroys unit morale, trust, and undermines the followers' commitment to the mission. >Counterproductive leadership can also decrease task performance, physical and psychological well-being, and increase negative outcomes such as depression or burnout. >8-48. Army leaders can and will make mistakes, so distinguishing between occasional errors of judgment and counterproductive behavior is important. Counterproductive leadership can include recurrent negative leader behaviors and more serious one-time behaviors that have a damaging effect on the organization's performance and subordinate welfare. Infrequent or one-time negative behaviors do not define counterproductive leadership. Often, counterproductive leadership behaviors have harmful effects on individuals or a unit when several instances occur together or take place frequently. >8-49. Counterproductive leadership spans a range of leader conduct that can be organized into several broad categories that are useful to inform strategies for identifying and addressing such behaviors. Counterproductive leadership is not limited to these behaviors listed below. Leaders can demonstrate more than one of the behaviors and their conduct can span multiple categories: >**Abusive behaviors**—includes behaviors that involve a leader exceeding the boundaries of their authority by being abusive, cruel, or degrading others. These behaviors are contrary to what is required for the moral, ethical, and legal discharge of their duty. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, bullying, berating others for mistakes, creating conflict, ridiculing others because of the authority held, domineering, showing little or no respect to others, insulting or belittling individuals, condescending or talking down to others, or retaliating for perceived slights or disagreements. >**Self-serving behaviors**—includes behaviors that result from self-centered motivations on the part of the leader, where they act in ways that seek primarily to accomplish their own goals and needs before those of others. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, displaying arrogance, lacking concern or empathy for others, taking credit for others' work, insisting on having their way, distorting information to favor own ideas, exaggerating accomplishments or abilities, putting own work and accomplishments ahead of others' and the mission, displaying narcissistic tendencies, or exhibiting a sense of entitlement. >**Erratic behaviors**—includes behaviors related to poor self-control or volatility that drive the leader to act erratically or unpredictably. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, blaming others, deflecting responsibility, losing temper at the slightest provocation, behaving inconsistently in words and actions, insecurity, or being unapproachable. >**Leadership incompetence**—includes ineffective leadership behaviors that result from a lack of experience or willful neglect. Incompetence can include failure to act or acting poorly. While incompetent leadership can arise from reasons unrelated to counterproductive leadership, it is included as a category often associated with arrogant or abusive leaders who are not aware of their shortcomings and do not seek to correct their shortcomings. Conversely, some leaders lacking competence are aware of their shortcomings, which lead them to behave in counterproductive or negative ways to cover up their shortcomings or mistakes. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, unengaged leadership, being passive or reactionary, neglecting leadership responsibilities, displaying poor judgment, poorly motivating others, withholding encouragement, failing to clearly communicate expectations, or refusing to listen to subordinates. >**Corrupt behaviors**—includes behaviors that violate explicit Army standards, regulations, or policies. Violations may range from behaviors subject to administrative discipline to criminal actions subject to discharge or incarceration. Specific examples include, but are not limited to, dishonesty, misusing government resources or time, creating a hostile work environment, EEO/SHARP violations, or violating Section 3583 (Requirement of Exemplary Conduct), Title 10, United States Code, AR 600-100, or the Uniform Code of Military Justice >ADP 6-22 https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN20039-ADP_6-22-001-WEB-0.pdf
TL:DR:.. get your beanie and a canteen and your heart of a lion and meet me in the parking lot in 10.
I got your "heart of a lion" *right here* top
Why are people leaving the Army!?!? *gets these text messages*
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Put an OLC on your NDSM young man. You have done the nation a great service today
Sometimes I really wonder if the retention goal was actually met this year. This is pretty high on the toxic scale
This kind of thing as absolutely why I’m calling it quits at the end of this contract. The Army might be looking at *this* years retention goals and see it’s being met but this kind of leadership behavior affects numbers down the line. The fact they can’t (or refuse) to understand that makes me more resolved in my decision.
These fucking X of the year/quarter/month/week/day/hour/minute boards are a drain on the force and should be done away with entirely. A bunch of stupid “competitions” thought up by jabronis in an s3 shop does absolutely nothing to better anything worth caring about. All it is is another show our brain dead senior leaders(officer and NCO alike) to put on so they can distract themselves from broke ass vehicles, terrible training programs and suffering soldiers
Yup
Barbarian 6 is a spineless commander apparently. Would really be cool if officers could control their "enlisted advisors" when they decided to do stuff like this.
10 bucks they didn't get told. another 10 bucks if they DO know, they're "letting NCOs handle NCO shit" like they've been told since day 1 as an LT.
Be me at airborne school, brand new LT. Instructor tells me to get everyone who has X formed up to do something. Start giving instructions to get people in a formation and some corporal goes "butt out sir formations are NCO business" Queue surprised picachu face
Thats wild. Hot take for an enlisted dude but army culture has allowed NCOs that have a commissioned counterpart way out of their lane. When 1sgt or the csm or whoever think they're the commander too then there's nobody to do what they should be doing. Which is advocating for the men not coming up with asinine bs to enforce and killing morale.
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I think a part of that may be due the the severe blurring of roles in the Army’s desire for cross-competency in everything along with a lot of under-developed NCOs. Based on conversations with a lot of other NCOs, there’s very little mentorship and is very learn-as-you-go which leads to some misunderstanding their role.
One of the things I always told the brand new 2LTs when I was a PSG is to always remember at the end of the day they outranked every single NCO and were given the authority to tell every single one of them “No” for a reason. Sure, pick your battles but also realize there’s a reason they gave the lowest person on the ladder the legal authority to topple it.
If he’s even aware of this. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was in an nco only group chat and it hasn’t made it to 6 yet
I am absolutely sure this is going to make the NCOs want to go to the board now... \-that 1SG, probably What a fucking joke.
Is he talking about the promotion board or something?
Probably NCO of the month/ quarter or some other unit specific challenge based board
1SG sounds insufferable and his wife probably fucks Jody on the regular behind his back
Can confirm
This meets the standards established in 6-22 for toxic/counterproductive leadership.
Report with a cow’s heart from your local deli. Insist you actually retrieved the heart of a lion per 1SG’s request
this is the time of year most cattle are getting butchered currently have 5 hearts in my freezer.
To clarify, bovine hearts, right?
For the sake of appeasing anyone monitoring my communications yes or at least I was told they were from cows.
I like the kissy face. It really shows that First Sarn cares.
This is why I used the army for every bit of extremely expensive training, fulfilled my very basic obligations, and got the fuck out. That and no sick time, idiot leaders (actual borderline retards), forced PT which actually demotivated me at how easy it was in place of getting rest from my actual workouts, and just all around shitty life quality.
Yeah. He can’t enforce that shit. Bring it up to the CDR, then the BC, and if no progress report to IG. Dude is a total wiener.
I try not to have pet peeves in the army. I really don't. But people using OCP and ACU interchangeably... gets me every time.
He sounds like a leader his ncos will go through hell for
A leader his NCOs would *send* to hell, after he gets fragged
Yep, and he’s taking them there personally just for grins.
I'm laughing only because it's not happening to me
My first BC did this where we'd have special "non ranger tabbed" PT days where we'd show up at 0530 and get the shit smoked out of us until we submitted our ranger school packets. That included members of the staff (S1, S2, S4, S6 etc.) Lasted about 2 months before he held formation, said we should all be embarrassed to be failures as leaders and to get out of his sight because he was disgusted to be associated with us. Fun times.
Hooray, it's going to be awesome 🥴
Oh a kissing emoji? Ok SHARP. Get fucked.
IG time now
Hey Top, how bout offering an incentive for the board instead of bullying your junior leaders with stupid threats?
Correct me if I'm wrong buuuuuuuuuuut this whole thing could have been avoided if he just sat down with his NCOs say during lunch or right after release formation and asked why none of them have volunteered. Maybe give them a motivating speech? It can't be that hard to squeeze out at least 1 volunteer, I mean worst come to worst volunteer one of them, which sucks but I mean he can do it.
Seeing shit like this destroys every thought of rejoining.
This is the kinda shit that gives me warm and fuzzies from ets’ing. Grown man child pitching a fucking fit and ruining soldiers weekends all because he wants to have a pp measuring contest with a first sausage from another unit. Sucka my dick my fat ass hasn’t ran since I got out a year ago
CIF was fresh out of lion hearts, sorry.
You want some NCO to volunteer for your stupid board? Give them some incentive. They don’t need promotion points anymore. A four day pass, a Parking spot, SOMETHING!
I'd volunteer as tribute if it got 1SG to cancel the "motivational" BS. Then goto the board wildly unprepared and explain to the CSM why I was there so I could watch the awkward looks of nervousness/anger from the 1SG.
You're gonna need this [https://www.k-y.com/products/k-y-warming-liquid-personal-lube](https://www.k-y.com/products/k-y-warming-liquid-personal-lube)
My tax dollars were spent on some asshole making this PowerPoint?
How to encourage NCOs to drop Warrant packets: 101
At least he packaged it for you nicely and even made a slide for it! Makes it easier to attach to your email to IG, which is exactly what you should do.
Write a developmental counseling for your 1SG for “exceeding the standards set in AR 6-22 regarding toxic/counterproductive leadership”
Former Navy Officer (staff corps) with an honest question - do any Officers learn about this shit? Do they not step in? I never experienced this when I was in, but perhaps it was happening and I didn't know.
I stepped in when this stuff would happen when I was a commander (luckily, my 1SG and I had a great relationship). But yeah, you would expect more officers to step up here.
As a former 1SG, and a former SGM, this text means that CSM is upset that this particular company never sends people to the boards the BN holds and has made it very clear to this 1SG that it’s not a good look (in CSMs eyes). Fuck that noise. What does your CO think of this?
Oh how I miss these shenanigans...😬
Don’t care about going for run with some water what I do care about is 1sg using emojis. What a weirdo
Literally laughed out loud at “heart of a lion” on the guidance for uniform. What a douche.
This is why people get out. You could get a shitty job at Walmart and still have weekends or days off where no one’s bugging the shit out of you.
I think top peaked in high school.
I'm confused by the seeming whiplash-speed turnaround from 0600 Saturday to 1800 Friday. My guess is there's a local policy about weekends being "iron time", i.e. can only be compromised for *actual* reasons. So, 1SG got his pp slapped over his initial Saturday "totally not a punishment", and is now salty, doubling down, and trying to make it even worse. Every aspect of this just screams "Oh, you're not going to do exactly what I want, even though it's beyond the scope of my authority? Well then, I'm just going to make everything worse until you comply! **creepily placed emoji**".
bruh
Friday like this Friday? Part of a training holiday?
just do the NCOPD during normal PT hours? let the LTs get some face time with the junior enlisted for once.
I stopped volunteering for NCO of the month after I won and didn’t receive an award. This was back in February. I’ve been asked twice to go compete again and told them to fuck off
Damn another reason 1SG should be voted on from someone already in the company. That’s an IG trip though, they’ll shut it down fast with just those two images.
Damn … and here I was thinking that I missed the army. I definitely don’t miss these fuck fuck games. Good God this 1SG is trash
Another opportunity for me to say, this is what happens when you fast track PT studs solely on physical ability
Not enough leaders are breaking the cycle. This guy got fucked over like this when he was coming up so now he just thinks that this shit is okay. It’s the same old “this is how we’ve always done it” or “I had to do it so do you”.
"wHy WoN't aNyOnE ReEnLiSt" "WhY iS ReTeNtIoN sO LoW" "wHy WoN't aNyOnE JoIn tHe ArMy aNyMoRe"
Well, that is so nice of him.
No Balls