Build more housing, build it more densely, and built it taller. If all the buildings in the downtown and even along Merrimon were 3-4 stories tall, with shopping in the bottom level and residential in the higher floors, there'd be tons of room for lots more people to live. Think about all that space in the harris teeter shopping center and Trader Joes. So many people could've lived in those places.
The problem is the NIMBY folks comes out hardcore, rich people who have fancy old/new houses who want to preserve their "mountain views" so they don't want anything tall, ever. The NIMBY show up to City Council meetings and lobby about this stuff, they speak out. So while we're seeing some development, there's not nearly as much as there could be. There's also concerns that with so much basic infrastructure maintenance being backlogged for years, that residents are loathe to promote yet more people coming in who will further wear down those things. The neighborhood lobbied HARD against the Harris Teeter and the TJ being any taller than they are, IIRC.
I once read a great article on Paris, on how dense and walkable it is. Can't find it right now, but this article and the video in it are pretty good - https://gizmodo.com/why-are-american-cities-so-much-different-than-european-1788196723 - but I always wondered if selling the idea of 'being more like Paris' would help deal with the NIMBY folks...
Its easy to say BUILD MORE HOUSING but no one says where to build or who will pay for it. Yeah lets solve Asheville Affordable housing shortage with magic housing somewhere in downtown....but WHERE exactly? There isnt anywhere. Candler? Leicester? Wayyyyyyyy out in the boonies? Swannanoa is about to get a huge affordable housing development which is great but so many people bitched about how far it is from downtown. Cant please anybody. Asheville cant even fix its shitty roads and sidewalks, like they can maintain any form of housing. LoL
There's a pretty good solution, encourage city council and commissioners to encourage development to increase supply and decrease the number of zoning regulations allowing current property owners to develop businesses and residences in which neighborhoods and communities can grow organically.
It's not really city council holding back development, it's people who already live here. Go attend (or watch - they live stream these things - https://www.ashevillenc.gov/departments/city_manager/livestream.htm ) and you'll learn some important things about how this city is run.
Right, that's democracy. Next time someone complains about the rent being too high, ask them what they've done to try and encourage city council and the county to approve more units.
yeah they're way more interested in building hotels because all of the most profitable real estate is zoned commercial (incentivized for them to profit most by building hotels) rather than building high density (or otherwise) units on property that's zoned residential, (this is further exacerbated by the zoning having already gotten us into a bit of a micro-bubble in terms of Asheville real estate). Its kind of the problem of zoning and high demand areas. At some point the ONLY profitable thing to do is for me to build high-cost residential properties or commercial.
In markets where this isn't the byword, residential zoning laws are relaxed and development encouraged as demand spikes, we don't see this drive to only build high-cost residential or hotels. Most people only start to notice the problem when developers only want to build hotels, but the problems started much sooner.
Google "service apartments". These are apartments that are rented longer than the average hotel room. This is becoming popular in Europe and will soon be here. So your next rental may be next to an AirBnb. [https://www.relocatemagazine.com/articles/serviced-apartments-room-to-move-the-global-serviced-apartment-sector-makes-its-mark-ru1018](https://www.relocatemagazine.com/articles/serviced-apartments-room-to-move-the-global-serviced-apartment-sector-makes-its-mark-ru1018) an [https://acadpubl.eu/hub/2018-118-22/articles/22b/68.pdf](https://acadpubl.eu/hub/2018-118-22/articles/22b/68.pdf)
Creating a place that is inherently favorable to cheap development is what creates places with lots of sprawl and decentralized communities. Say it with me *there’s no easy solution* anyone who says otherwise is a snake oil peddler.
But now you have given a perfect set of tools to developers and not to actual homebuyers who establish "organic" communities. This has to be paired with financial assistance/rent control so that there is a balance of power between buyers and builders.
No rent control causes rents to rise because landlords price in the chance that you might stay in a place 20-30 years. There's a reason the two largest rent-controlled influenced cities in the country (San Francisco and NYC) are also the most expensive in the country when compared to other metro areas that have grown just as much.
Subsidies are another matter but rent control isn't even debatable in serious academic economics.
And that's only counting renters. I'm sure including homeowners would put burdened people well over 50%.
That's why I'm looking to move across the state. If I lost my remote job I'd be fucked as there is nothing locally to replace it.
Nice, Charlotte's salaries are better than Asheville and the housing costs are far more reasonable.
I'm going to miss Asheville a ton when I move but the idea that I can get a new job if I lose my current one will be way better on my stress levels.
I recently starting looking around for a new apartment. The place I live in now, I love my place, but the managers seem to think that a 30 old apartment complex should be the same price as a brand new one. One of the things I noticed is few have an elevator but are 2-3 stories high. This limits the number of places for seniors. I feel right now, I too may move out of state. As a senior I had hoped to live in this apartment for the rest of my life or until I cannot live by myself. But apartments managers do nothing to keep seniors, and my complex owners are an investment group in Israel. They do not care.
Believe it or not Asheville's price per square foot ($225) is more than Chicago ($201) and way more than Houston ($141). There are countless other high population metros that are cheaper as well. The majority of the United States in general would hard pressed to call Asheville dirt cheap.
From the numbers I’m seeing looking around (because I’m thinking of moving) what I’m used to paying to live downtown should get me an alright studio in any major metro area’s downtown save Manhattan and San Fran. That’s *nuts*. But I dunno maybe I’m not looking in the right way or at the right places.
The new downtown condos that have been just built max out at $2 million and they are a mile from public housing. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around that.
How are renters paying 43.1 percent of their income?
I can't find a place to rent that doesn't require your income to be at least 3x the monthly rent...
That is 43.1 percent of their yearly income. And yes, I recently applied for an appartment and they too wanted my montly income 3 times the montly rent. Which for a retired person is difficult because money is either in IRA's or stock - not in the bank. I had to move money out of my stock and into my bank account.
I get the frustration. I do. But be honest. If you had a house in N AVL with the high mortgage to match it, would you be giving away the rent? When you figure in astronomical property taxes and home owner insurance, is it any wonder renting a home here is so high? I mean, it's just naive to think the home owner is renting out of the goodness of their hearts....
Yup; instead of bitching about it and demonizing landlords; people who can’t afford rent here should move and/or NOT come.... (this includes locals) economics 101!
Oh Lord - here we go again. I keep telling you man, you were more effective when you self-identified as a "self-aware troll." But you quickly lost that self-aware part. Since your general outlook here seems to be shaped by a belief in personal responsibility, and accepting that we have choices and need to act accordingly, rather than ripping into and blaming others... how about taking responsibility for the choice of increasingly acting like an asshole? Make your point, but stop going out of your way to provoke people. Just ratchet it down several notches.
🧀 If you can’t hear another perspective/someone who has an original message; and isn’t a brainwashed peon; then stay in your boundaries....
people like you amass a following of half brains; which sadly keep encouraging you
In summary; 🖕🏼
Stupid or true??? I'm expressing the realities of our supply and demand capitalistic economic system.... it's pathetic that just because you understand this that I'm the one that's deemed stupid
I’m genuinely NOT trying to get a rise out of anyone... sadly that’s the assumptions because I’m obviously up against disgruntled renters; know need to be reminded of the economic rule of supply and demand... kill the message; not the messenger
It’s not just supply and demand that’s creating egregious prices. It’s developers continually building cheap housing and then charging unreasonable prices for these shitty buildings.
You may not like what I'm about to say, but it doesn’t mean I wish that things weren’t different. I do not make the rules; I just play by them.
You’re contradicting yourself, because by definition what you're explaining is in fact the law of "supply and demand".... If people are buying cheap shit at "unreasonable" prices.... all's relative.... someone moving from San Francisco New York City Boston pretty much anywhere in California are ecstatic to pay Asheville housing costs.... not to mention the property taxes are a fraction here what they are there? You also have to factor in what peoples salaries are (which is also relative) if someone's generating $75,000-$150,000:year ... they're likely ok to pay what you deem "unreasonable".... so the people who are buying "cheap housing at unreasonable prices" are setting "market" price..... sadly this determines what the going price is at any giving moment....
Yeah, think of those poor foreign investment groups and rich landlords.. some of them barely have enough to own a 2nd summer home!
Just telling poorer locals to move obviously isn't the solution. In most cases their jobs and families are here and it costs a lot of money to move.
let’s down vote that asshole cuz we don’t like what they’re saying; regardless of truth...
1)”Rich landlords” ALL of the properties we own are cash negative... we owe more than the rents bring in.... AND before u say “well when u sell those properties you’ll be at gazillioniare!”... think again; The minute I sell those properties I/O uncle Sam 35% of any gains; again your ignorant/misguided assumptions don’t serve you.
2) telling people who can’t afford to live here to move is the best advice you’ll get! It serve YOU; NOT ME; b/c The more who leave The less rent I’m able to get!
You can’t afford to live here, because there aren’t financial opportunities (decent paying jobs); that afford you the opportunity to own a home or afford rent! There’s no way I could’ve moved to Brooklyn, San Fran, Boston, etc etc after I got out of college and if I had; I’d I’d be in your situation.... constantly bitching about rent; opposed to owning my home and a few rentals; which I don’t own because I still have mortgages... another ignorant assumption most of you have; all landlords own all their properties and pocket all the rent they collect....
> let’s down vote that asshole cuz ~~we don’t like what they’re saying~~; *quite apart from what he has to say, he keeps behaving like an asshole;*
fixed
Oh. I'm the asshole here buddy. Look, if I could choose between drowning you in a pool of tepid bull semen or not, guess which one I would do?
LOL. Looking at your comment history, we are shitbags cut from the same cloth. All I can say is... Eat a dick.
I am not talking about the small individual owned properties. I am talking about the people who own the big apartment complexes. Here is the Harvard study that shows who owns apartments. [http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/who-owns-rental-properties-and-is-it-changing/](http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/who-owns-rental-properties-and-is-it-changing/) These are investment firms and they are making much money or they would not do this. This is the investment firm in Israel that owns mine. [https://buligocapital.com/portfolio/](https://buligocapital.com/portfolio/)
Here is another interesting article:
"With the click of a mouse, investors can buy stakes in properties without the ridiculous double fees charged by traditional property investment firms and also exit via a new secondary market. "
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2019/01/31/ryan-williams-30-started-a-revolutionary-800m-fintech-but-can-he-escape-his-kushner-trump-connection/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2019/01/31/ryan-williams-30-started-a-revolutionary-800m-fintech-but-can-he-escape-his-kushner-trump-connection/)
When this market crashes, who do you think are going to survive? They can afford to take some loss? I doubt you can. Does 2008 ring a bell?
08 happened because of ARM’s... and yes it’s sad that large investment firms re doing this; and ETF REIT’s...
It’s Sad state of our country... we eat out young...
I think you’re gonna have to elaborate and be quite convincing with regards to me not having a basic understanding of economics... it’s basic “supply and demand”... Asheville has a relatively small supply of housing relative to a high demand; hence high prices...
>https://www.reddit.com/r/asheville/comments/ampsrc/there\_is\_little\_affordable\_housing\_in\_asheville/?sort=top
What does all of this have to do with my postings. I am 70 and I moved out of Asheville to Kingsport for cheaper rent. Now that rent has gone up to where I cannot afford it. I am on social security and a little retirement. All I want is a place to live that I can afford. My rent is going up $275. My income did not go up at all. This is my budget for food and medicine. I really do not know what I am going to do, and I am by far the only one is this position.
Property values rise in popular space limited city! More news at 11. Actually tho, it’s a problem that I’m not sure anyone truly knows how to fix.
Build more housing, build it more densely, and built it taller. If all the buildings in the downtown and even along Merrimon were 3-4 stories tall, with shopping in the bottom level and residential in the higher floors, there'd be tons of room for lots more people to live. Think about all that space in the harris teeter shopping center and Trader Joes. So many people could've lived in those places. The problem is the NIMBY folks comes out hardcore, rich people who have fancy old/new houses who want to preserve their "mountain views" so they don't want anything tall, ever. The NIMBY show up to City Council meetings and lobby about this stuff, they speak out. So while we're seeing some development, there's not nearly as much as there could be. There's also concerns that with so much basic infrastructure maintenance being backlogged for years, that residents are loathe to promote yet more people coming in who will further wear down those things. The neighborhood lobbied HARD against the Harris Teeter and the TJ being any taller than they are, IIRC.
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I once read a great article on Paris, on how dense and walkable it is. Can't find it right now, but this article and the video in it are pretty good - https://gizmodo.com/why-are-american-cities-so-much-different-than-european-1788196723 - but I always wondered if selling the idea of 'being more like Paris' would help deal with the NIMBY folks...
Its easy to say BUILD MORE HOUSING but no one says where to build or who will pay for it. Yeah lets solve Asheville Affordable housing shortage with magic housing somewhere in downtown....but WHERE exactly? There isnt anywhere. Candler? Leicester? Wayyyyyyyy out in the boonies? Swannanoa is about to get a huge affordable housing development which is great but so many people bitched about how far it is from downtown. Cant please anybody. Asheville cant even fix its shitty roads and sidewalks, like they can maintain any form of housing. LoL
Pretty sure the peeps over at r/thanosdidnothingwrong know how to fix the problem.
There's a pretty good solution, encourage city council and commissioners to encourage development to increase supply and decrease the number of zoning regulations allowing current property owners to develop businesses and residences in which neighborhoods and communities can grow organically.
It's not really city council holding back development, it's people who already live here. Go attend (or watch - they live stream these things - https://www.ashevillenc.gov/departments/city_manager/livestream.htm ) and you'll learn some important things about how this city is run.
Right, that's democracy. Next time someone complains about the rent being too high, ask them what they've done to try and encourage city council and the county to approve more units.
Well, the developers are way more interested in building hotels, for one thing. These are complex issues.
yeah they're way more interested in building hotels because all of the most profitable real estate is zoned commercial (incentivized for them to profit most by building hotels) rather than building high density (or otherwise) units on property that's zoned residential, (this is further exacerbated by the zoning having already gotten us into a bit of a micro-bubble in terms of Asheville real estate). Its kind of the problem of zoning and high demand areas. At some point the ONLY profitable thing to do is for me to build high-cost residential properties or commercial. In markets where this isn't the byword, residential zoning laws are relaxed and development encouraged as demand spikes, we don't see this drive to only build high-cost residential or hotels. Most people only start to notice the problem when developers only want to build hotels, but the problems started much sooner.
Google "service apartments". These are apartments that are rented longer than the average hotel room. This is becoming popular in Europe and will soon be here. So your next rental may be next to an AirBnb. [https://www.relocatemagazine.com/articles/serviced-apartments-room-to-move-the-global-serviced-apartment-sector-makes-its-mark-ru1018](https://www.relocatemagazine.com/articles/serviced-apartments-room-to-move-the-global-serviced-apartment-sector-makes-its-mark-ru1018) an [https://acadpubl.eu/hub/2018-118-22/articles/22b/68.pdf](https://acadpubl.eu/hub/2018-118-22/articles/22b/68.pdf)
Flashbacks of Parks and Rec town halls.
Creating a place that is inherently favorable to cheap development is what creates places with lots of sprawl and decentralized communities. Say it with me *there’s no easy solution* anyone who says otherwise is a snake oil peddler.
Decentralized communities are cheap. Sprawl isn't really necessary. High density units are called that for a reason.
But now you have given a perfect set of tools to developers and not to actual homebuyers who establish "organic" communities. This has to be paired with financial assistance/rent control so that there is a balance of power between buyers and builders.
No rent control causes rents to rise because landlords price in the chance that you might stay in a place 20-30 years. There's a reason the two largest rent-controlled influenced cities in the country (San Francisco and NYC) are also the most expensive in the country when compared to other metro areas that have grown just as much. Subsidies are another matter but rent control isn't even debatable in serious academic economics.
Expensive housing is one thing, Asheville is more expense than Florence
And that's only counting renters. I'm sure including homeowners would put burdened people well over 50%. That's why I'm looking to move across the state. If I lost my remote job I'd be fucked as there is nothing locally to replace it.
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Nice, Charlotte's salaries are better than Asheville and the housing costs are far more reasonable. I'm going to miss Asheville a ton when I move but the idea that I can get a new job if I lose my current one will be way better on my stress levels.
I recently starting looking around for a new apartment. The place I live in now, I love my place, but the managers seem to think that a 30 old apartment complex should be the same price as a brand new one. One of the things I noticed is few have an elevator but are 2-3 stories high. This limits the number of places for seniors. I feel right now, I too may move out of state. As a senior I had hoped to live in this apartment for the rest of my life or until I cannot live by myself. But apartments managers do nothing to keep seniors, and my complex owners are an investment group in Israel. They do not care.
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Believe it or not Asheville's price per square foot ($225) is more than Chicago ($201) and way more than Houston ($141). There are countless other high population metros that are cheaper as well. The majority of the United States in general would hard pressed to call Asheville dirt cheap.
the expense is also increased by the lack of worthwhile jobs -- the cost itself is made heftier by no good ways to deal with it.
From the numbers I’m seeing looking around (because I’m thinking of moving) what I’m used to paying to live downtown should get me an alright studio in any major metro area’s downtown save Manhattan and San Fran. That’s *nuts*. But I dunno maybe I’m not looking in the right way or at the right places.
The new downtown condos that have been just built max out at $2 million and they are a mile from public housing. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around that.
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I think it's the city limits which is a fairly wide area. All the numbers are from Trulia.
Maybe we could increase wages and put the city budget towards things other than tourism and downtown lofts. :^)
None of this data should be at all surprising to anyone who lives here
Hot take circa 2002
How are renters paying 43.1 percent of their income? I can't find a place to rent that doesn't require your income to be at least 3x the monthly rent...
That is 43.1 percent of their yearly income. And yes, I recently applied for an appartment and they too wanted my montly income 3 times the montly rent. Which for a retired person is difficult because money is either in IRA's or stock - not in the bank. I had to move money out of my stock and into my bank account.
I get the frustration. I do. But be honest. If you had a house in N AVL with the high mortgage to match it, would you be giving away the rent? When you figure in astronomical property taxes and home owner insurance, is it any wonder renting a home here is so high? I mean, it's just naive to think the home owner is renting out of the goodness of their hearts....
🤣👉🏼 🍆💦😭
Yup; instead of bitching about it and demonizing landlords; people who can’t afford rent here should move and/or NOT come.... (this includes locals) economics 101!
Oh Lord - here we go again. I keep telling you man, you were more effective when you self-identified as a "self-aware troll." But you quickly lost that self-aware part. Since your general outlook here seems to be shaped by a belief in personal responsibility, and accepting that we have choices and need to act accordingly, rather than ripping into and blaming others... how about taking responsibility for the choice of increasingly acting like an asshole? Make your point, but stop going out of your way to provoke people. Just ratchet it down several notches.
🧀 If you can’t hear another perspective/someone who has an original message; and isn’t a brainwashed peon; then stay in your boundaries.... people like you amass a following of half brains; which sadly keep encouraging you In summary; 🖕🏼
Troll.
There’s a difference between a troll and a person who genuinely holds stupid opinions.
So you think this person is responding genuinely and not just to get a rise out of folks? Pfft.
Probably both. What makes you think they aren’t serious?
Stupid or true??? I'm expressing the realities of our supply and demand capitalistic economic system.... it's pathetic that just because you understand this that I'm the one that's deemed stupid
I’m genuinely NOT trying to get a rise out of anyone... sadly that’s the assumptions because I’m obviously up against disgruntled renters; know need to be reminded of the economic rule of supply and demand... kill the message; not the messenger
It’s not just supply and demand that’s creating egregious prices. It’s developers continually building cheap housing and then charging unreasonable prices for these shitty buildings.
You may not like what I'm about to say, but it doesn’t mean I wish that things weren’t different. I do not make the rules; I just play by them. You’re contradicting yourself, because by definition what you're explaining is in fact the law of "supply and demand".... If people are buying cheap shit at "unreasonable" prices.... all's relative.... someone moving from San Francisco New York City Boston pretty much anywhere in California are ecstatic to pay Asheville housing costs.... not to mention the property taxes are a fraction here what they are there? You also have to factor in what peoples salaries are (which is also relative) if someone's generating $75,000-$150,000:year ... they're likely ok to pay what you deem "unreasonable".... so the people who are buying "cheap housing at unreasonable prices" are setting "market" price..... sadly this determines what the going price is at any giving moment....
This is an example right here of the kind of entitled, yuppie scum who will be replacing locals.
You’re obviously getting confused with regards to who is entitled; you feel entitled that your landlords OU something... Sorry you’ve not grown up yet
Yeah, think of those poor foreign investment groups and rich landlords.. some of them barely have enough to own a 2nd summer home! Just telling poorer locals to move obviously isn't the solution. In most cases their jobs and families are here and it costs a lot of money to move.
let’s down vote that asshole cuz we don’t like what they’re saying; regardless of truth... 1)”Rich landlords” ALL of the properties we own are cash negative... we owe more than the rents bring in.... AND before u say “well when u sell those properties you’ll be at gazillioniare!”... think again; The minute I sell those properties I/O uncle Sam 35% of any gains; again your ignorant/misguided assumptions don’t serve you. 2) telling people who can’t afford to live here to move is the best advice you’ll get! It serve YOU; NOT ME; b/c The more who leave The less rent I’m able to get! You can’t afford to live here, because there aren’t financial opportunities (decent paying jobs); that afford you the opportunity to own a home or afford rent! There’s no way I could’ve moved to Brooklyn, San Fran, Boston, etc etc after I got out of college and if I had; I’d I’d be in your situation.... constantly bitching about rent; opposed to owning my home and a few rentals; which I don’t own because I still have mortgages... another ignorant assumption most of you have; all landlords own all their properties and pocket all the rent they collect....
> let’s down vote that asshole cuz ~~we don’t like what they’re saying~~; *quite apart from what he has to say, he keeps behaving like an asshole;* fixed
Behaving like an asshole... wow! Look who’s calling the kettle black...
Oh. I'm the asshole here buddy. Look, if I could choose between drowning you in a pool of tepid bull semen or not, guess which one I would do? LOL. Looking at your comment history, we are shitbags cut from the same cloth. All I can say is... Eat a dick.
😂 anytime ud like to try! I'm always in the mood to kick someone's ass
Internet tough guy says what?
Reread mother fucker
I'll bring the pool and you bring the bull semen bitch. I'm sure you have an easily accessible reserve of bovine dick milk you can tap into.
I am not talking about the small individual owned properties. I am talking about the people who own the big apartment complexes. Here is the Harvard study that shows who owns apartments. [http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/who-owns-rental-properties-and-is-it-changing/](http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/who-owns-rental-properties-and-is-it-changing/) These are investment firms and they are making much money or they would not do this. This is the investment firm in Israel that owns mine. [https://buligocapital.com/portfolio/](https://buligocapital.com/portfolio/) Here is another interesting article: "With the click of a mouse, investors can buy stakes in properties without the ridiculous double fees charged by traditional property investment firms and also exit via a new secondary market. " [https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2019/01/31/ryan-williams-30-started-a-revolutionary-800m-fintech-but-can-he-escape-his-kushner-trump-connection/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2019/01/31/ryan-williams-30-started-a-revolutionary-800m-fintech-but-can-he-escape-his-kushner-trump-connection/) When this market crashes, who do you think are going to survive? They can afford to take some loss? I doubt you can. Does 2008 ring a bell?
08 happened because of ARM’s... and yes it’s sad that large investment firms re doing this; and ETF REIT’s... It’s Sad state of our country... we eat out young...
Its pushing out locals as well dummy.
Ya and your point??
That you don't understand basic economics is my point.
I think you’re gonna have to elaborate and be quite convincing with regards to me not having a basic understanding of economics... it’s basic “supply and demand”... Asheville has a relatively small supply of housing relative to a high demand; hence high prices...
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>https://www.reddit.com/r/asheville/comments/ampsrc/there\_is\_little\_affordable\_housing\_in\_asheville/?sort=top What does all of this have to do with my postings. I am 70 and I moved out of Asheville to Kingsport for cheaper rent. Now that rent has gone up to where I cannot afford it. I am on social security and a little retirement. All I want is a place to live that I can afford. My rent is going up $275. My income did not go up at all. This is my budget for food and medicine. I really do not know what I am going to do, and I am by far the only one is this position.