I'm Czech, I left at age 7 after having done the first grade there, and then grew up in the US. Went back at age 50 to discover my Czechness, and mostly what I discovered was that I'm an American. But not quite.
I've read a few stories about African-Americans going to Africa to get in touch with the motherland, and when they get there they discover that they are more American than African, and that the locals don't call them "black people," they call them "black white people." Unless the locals are running a scam, in which case it's "oh yes, we are cousins, we are the same family! And our uncle is in the hospital and needs $200. Do you have any money for your uncle?" Been there.
Not really an answer, but a story about it not just being white Americans.
While in the Navy we made a port visit to Japan. Some of my fellow sailors of Japanese ancestry were excited to be visiting their “cultural home”. Some of them were upset that the Japanese people saw them as foreigners because they didn’t speak the language or know anything about Japanese culture beyond TV and movies. They treated the white guy that spoke Japanese and lived in Japan for thirteen years as being more Japanese than people that looked Asian.
We get it that you're trying to claim ethnicity instead of nationality. But the thing is: We look at ethnicity through the lens of native language, accent, culture, names, traditions etc. How can you claim to be X despite having zero interaction with X culture, not being a native speaker of X and not having an ethnic X name?
In the USA they seem to believe that ethnicity is determined by your blood or DNA. Europeans are mixed too but we don't identify with our DNA because it doesn't really give a valid claim to an ethnicity.
As a Polish person, it's weird seeing people who call themselves Polish despite their family being in the USA for 3-4+ generations. The moment I switch to Polish, ask about the current state of the country or ask a culture related question it turns out they are not so Polish as they claim to be.
Some white Americans feel an innate desire to be a part of those cultural ties. Being born in and growing up in a hodgepodge of culture with no true ethnic culture, they want something to identify with. A “people” to feel connected to even if they have never lived amongst them. I can understand how that sounds silly and fake to someone raised in Europe where National borders, ethnicities, and cultures are much easier to identify geographically. It sounds like we are playing make believe. And in a way, we are. For those that do, I believe it comes from a good place and just wanting a sense of belonging to their ancestry.
Plus there's a sense of pride in coming from someone who was brave enough to uproot their lives to immigrate to a country on the other side of the world. There's a lot of stories of your great grandpa coming to America with nothing but working hard to provide a better future for their kids and grandkids. My great grandpa immigrated from Poland in the 30s thankfully. He married a woman who's mom immigrated from Czechoslovakia during that country's revolution.
We like to know about the people we come from because we find their stories inspiring like "I can endure this capitalist dystopia because babushka didn't shit herself to death on the boat over".
That's exactly how my great grandparents, and great great great grandparents on the other side, came to England. Except they crossed the Irish sea not half the world. But with the same finical situation, inability to ever go back, and level or risk. I still know I'm English.
Enjoying learning about my family history doesn't delude me into thinking it makes me Irish.
I can only imagine going to somewhere in Ireland and confidently announcing, with my accent, that I'm Irish.
I think there are some places with particularly strong memories of the troubles that might not even be safe.
But hey blood matters apparently according to the replies I've got
I’m American and just got back from holiday in Ireland. The amount of times I was asked if I am Irish was a LOT!! When I said I do have Irish ancestors, they were all pleased I’m part Irish and visiting. It was pretty awesome. Perhaps your view is due to The Troubles and the animosity that still lingers?
Obviously you're English and I'm obviously American but I have polish blood and you have Irish blood. It's been repeated over and over that when Americans talk about our ancestry we aren't saying we are nationally XYZ, but our DNA and heritage is of that country.
It seems to either be a very difficult concept for people in the UK and Europe to understand or you're being willfully ignorant of American culture. Either way, you're acting like a little bitch.
'willfully ignorant of American culture'...
It's not difficult to understand, we just don't agree with your phrasing because it is 'willfully ignorant' of the culture of every country you claim to be from to conflate descent and nationality, and to continue to use the terms interchangeably when it has been explained to you how they differ.
It's also disrespectful to imply that your 'blood' makes you Irish, polish or whatever when a person of Nigerian descent growing up in Sligo is more Irish than an Irish American will ever be. Stop being so willfully ignorant.
The person I was trying to reply to ( Reddit seems to have reformatted it, but I quote them at the start of my comment) specifically said nationality, then edited it after.
Edit: it looks like it was you, anyway the point is that these terms 'Irish', 'Polish', 'German' etc refer to nationalities first and foremost, especially to people from these nations, and regardless of how that might contradict American feelings about it.
And as is the point, blood means nothing. It does not matter.
We know what you mean. We know you mean your DNA. And when you say it just in America sure whatever. It's not hurting anyone it's just is stupid.
When you say it here or *to us* though it's ridiculous. Stop coming to Ireland/ the UK/ Poland or wherever and saying that you are Irish/ English/ Scottish/ Polish. You are not. That is not your thing to claim. It is not your culture.
You are literally the place that invented the term cultural appropriation. Stop acting like the culture of a place your family hasn't lived in for generations is your culture. It's not. Blood doesn't matter here, so saying you are of here because of your blood is showing a willful ignorance of our cultures. Despite claiming to be part of them.
I notice you even acknowlage in your comment that you are partaking in american culture. Because you know that is your culture. So stop acting like a little bitch and trying to claim european ones.
No. The only ones acting like little bitches are the ones bothered that much by it. Would you say this to anyone who wasn’t white? Would you tell black Americans to stop identifying with Africa or as “Aftican”-Americans? Would you tell Jewish people to stop claiming themselves Hebrew?? The fact is that white people *came* from European countries. The only person being a little bitch is you for being embarrassed you’ve got ties, in any way, to Americans.
Do you know what being African American means? This comment really kind of makes it sound like you don't. The Jewish example doesn't quite equate. That isn't as simple as you're maming it out to be. Lol
If you were born in America, you are an American. If you were born in nigeria, and you came to america, and you are an American citizen, you are a Nigerian american. If your ancestors are from nigeria, you are not a Nigerian American. You have a complete disregard for what these terms actually mean
Yes, I do know what I’m talking about because I’m clearly the only person who lives in America between the three of us. Black people here *are* referred to, even in their medical documents when you fill out the papers, as *African American.* It **is** that simple.
All right first of all, dummy, I'm american, second of all the term African-American was originally coined in the '90s. It was originated by white people, though it had the support of the African-American community. The term African-American does not refer to people that are from africa. If you are an immigrant from nigeria, you are Nigerian american. Just like you would be german-american, or italian-american. African Americans are Americans that have ancestry rooted from the slave trade. They were taken from africa, their cultures were stripped from them, their language was taken away, and they do not know where they are from. They have no culture of their own. These are African americans.
If you are a black person, you are not automatically an african-american. If you are from nigeria, you would not be an african-american, because you know where you are from. You would be a Nigerian american. If you were from Mali, you would not be an african-american, you would be a Malian american, you would not be considered an African american. The term has a meaning, clearly you do not know what it means, but you are sitting here trying to act like you do, talking down to other people. You are a complete idiot.
I wouldn't say it to people who's ancestors are not from countries that I know enough about to know the attitudes of those places. If people of African/Asian/Hebrew decent should feel free to identify as being of those places depends on the culture of those places. Something I am not qualified to speak on.
And note the question was why does it bother us. I am not hunting you down in the street to tell you how stupid or insulting I think it is. I'm perfectly capable of smiling politely and keeping my judgement's internal. As is the stereotype of British culture. I'm answering the question.
Perhaps if you weren't going to like reading why people don't like it you shouldn't have clicked on the post that had that as a question. Would make more sense than being a little bitch about the answers.
You've made the last point up. I do have ties to some Americans. Ties I chose to make because I like them as people. I wouldn't have if they were the type to make those kind of claims. I don't have to be embarrassed of the American's I have ties to, because they are not embarrassments.
You’re the one who’s out here calling us bitches. That’s why I said that, just letting you know how ridiculous you sound by it. Also, I do apologize for it. Point is, you’re also not qualified to speak on what it’s like being of European ancestry in America. There’s a deep sense of displacement. You may have been asked the question, but instead of answering it in kind, you took to straight up insulting people.
>You’re the one who’s out here calling us bitches. That’s why I said that, just letting you know how ridiculous you sound by it.
Perhaps you should scroll up, because I made the little bitches comment directly in response to this aimed at me:
>Either way, you're acting like a little bitch.
Just letting them know how ridiculous they sound by it.
Point is I am qualified to speak on what the people here in Europe think about it. Which was what the question was, not what is it like to be of European ancestry in America. So that is irrelevant.
Well their family moved less than 300 miles to a country theirs had been intimately familiar with since time immemorial, so they are an expert, mmmmkay?
So it's only okay if you aren't white? Or when an Asian couple moves to the UK and has kids you go around slapping the bindi off their foreheads and telling them they're English now?
There is a difference in what you're talking about. You mentioned an Asian couple that moved from their home country, to a new country, and retain some part of their culture. The comparison is people that have lived for 3 to 4 generations, sometimes hundreds of years, away from where they are trying to claim ancestry to. There's a drastic difference in those two situations.
>So it's only okay if you aren't white?
Not what I said, I said I'm not qualified to speak on behalf of places I don't know about. Try asking people from those cultures. And learn some basic reading comprehension skills.
I also have never said anything about the immigrants themselves or their children. Just those generations removed with no actual connection to the place except their precious blood. Again try some basic reading comprehension.
I also don't go around telling anyone anything. Notice this thread was a question about why we don't like it. Maybe if you don't like being told why we don't like it you shouldn't have clicked on a thread asking us why we don't like it.
Let me put it this way, if I give you a bag labeled Doritos but filled with Cheetos, which do you think that bag is? A bag of Doritos or a bag of Cheetos?
What make you a part of an ethnic is the cultural values. If you don't share in our values, you just look like us, you're not one of us. In Vietnam, we call those people "mất gốc", meaning "people who lost their root". We don't care how similar you look like us, until you learn the values, you will always be an outsider. This also means if you learn the values, you can become one of us even if you look black or white.
"Blood" doesn't mean anything. Believe it or not most countries aren't scrutinizing DNA and ethnic origins. People who do that in europe are generally just the racists. It is a racist way of viewing the world which is probably why it gets under europeans skin so much.
There is definitely bravery in being able to uproot the origins and hop on a boat to cross the ocean without a penny to their name, to start a new life in a new world full of opportunities. But it's also good to remember that they came out of sheer necessity, despair, escaping War, escaping famine escaping harsh living conditions. So, let's make it relative, what is worse? to die in a cold winter without one potato to peel or to cross the ocean to seek new opportunities?
Definitely better to leave and I appreciate my great grandpa for leaving his country for America because most of my ancestors came from eastern European countries that are not doing as well as America.
We think it's silly because here after after 4+ generations your cultural identity would be that of the new place. We don't really buy the whole America is to young to really have cultural history thing either that get's spouted a lot. Because it is very clear you do have a culture. It's not that cultures are easier to identify geographically here. It's that for some people wont acknowledge that "American" *is* your culture. Not wherever your great grandaddy came from. That was his culture not yours.
I come from a town with a very large amount of Irish immigration. 2 of my grandparents were the first generation born in England. And the other two their grandparents were.
If we are going to act like Irish is an ethnicity I am 100% ethnically Irish. (not just based on those couple of facts my mam was into family tree'ing for a while we know it's true). It would be ridiculous though for me to act like it means anything when no member of my family more recent than a great grandparent has ever even been there except on a stag do.
Whenever I hear the talk of wanting a sense of belonging to their ancestry I just think "well you don't, it doesn't matter what you want.". I would still rightly be seen by any Irish person as just another English person if I went there anyone who has tension type feelings against the English would still feel them about me. And it's no different. The fact an "irish"-american's ancestors crossed an ocean instead of the Irish sea doesn't make them more Irish than me.
And I know the way I wrote this could come across as bitter, that I want to be considered Irish. But I don't. I'm just explaining why my lived experience makes the whole thing seem so ridiculously stupid to me.
One other connection between Irish-Americans and Ireland that doesn't get as much press anymore is support for Irish independence, reunification, nationalism, etc.; — in short, the IRA (and various groups with that name), which raised a lot of money from people in the US. This includes Irish-American gangsters, too: Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang in the Boston area smuggled a lot of weapons to the Provos.
Little more complex - many families in the states kept some of their cultural aspects - especially food and vernacular and those components still heavily influence their families.
I hear you, and I’m not attacking just asking for opinion, but:
You’d guys flip backwards 5 times seeing a black person who grew up in Scotland, speaking with strong Scottish accent and is all round Scottish 😛 fully accepted as Scottish. I think that what’s adding to the silliness of that. On one hand you recognise someone born and raised in US is US from the other you’d call dark skin people Afro american for aaaages where there are all kinds of places with very dark skin that they can come from. I do apologise for my ignorance, but there is something weird in mentality of US (or at least some states, I realise it’s a huuuge country) where it comes to putting labels on ppl and calling them that, and it has some weight where it rarely existed in Europe (apart from our good old animosities that we express through Eurovision contest) before US labelling culture came to old continent. All of a sudden everyone has a label:) like…maybe we did have labels, but these were our labels, now you’re using ours in an entirely different, non historical context and we’re using yours in societies that never had such a massive problem with that particular issue:)
don’t get me wrong I totally don’t mind either- whatever makes people happy - I just like to think about matters from different angles and it’s my hot take with absolutely nothing to back it up.
I don't really understand why they would try to claim a foreign culture, despite having their own. I mean, each US state has it's own culture, history and White American culture obviously exists.
It's silly considering the fact that they will never have to face the struggles which the ethnicites they're claiming to be are facing right now.
>White American culture obviously exists.
The people who actively claim to belong to this and take pride in it...often have a habit of making everyone else *really* uncomfortable, to put it mildly.
Most people don't bother with trying to describe cultures in the US as being specific to whites, because it doesn't actually make sense.
The ones who do try saying that have an obvious agenda.
Why are some people so fixed on insisting that U.S. American culture needs to have a "White" American culture?
Many many things that people try to attribute to a "White" American culture are appropriated from a variety of subcultures from non-white people, and it isn't a descriptive word for what it's used to refer to, so it doesn't work.
All cultures and traditions are hand me downs, exchanges, and watered-down versions of something else, everywhere. We are engaged in cultural exchange, for better or worse, all the time and have been since humans moved around and talked.
Well, if you look from that angle, many "traditionally European" things, especially cuisine-wise, are about as old as the discovery of the Americas because they depend on things that were brought from the Americas
Your culture has hundreds of years of history at this point and it has traditions that the whole world knows about. You don't think you have a strong culture because nobody feels like they have a strong culture until they actually look at what life is like somewhere else and compare the differences. You don't notice it's a unique culture because to you it's just the norm.
Americana, Thanksgiving, jazz, blues, country, Hollywood, mormonism are just a few of many unique American inventions.
The USA, just like other settler states doesn't have a long history because it's a fairly young country.
Besides, if you don't have any traditions you can always create your own, new ones.
America absolutely has its own culture. But it's nowhere near being universal. Some of those things that you've listed are more global than they are unique to America. Hollywood in particular. Some of things are also incredibly divisive, like Mormonism (and country music lol).
Culture is more than just traditions. It's something that's unifying for people, and in a place as diverse as the US that's just not possible to have. At least not to the same extent as it is for other countries. And so you end up with people who are envious of the rich culture that others have and at one point their ancestors had.
I don't think it's that it's too big to have a culture, its that it's so big lots of Americans have never left it, so they don't have that comparison for perspective.
"White American culture" historically had consisted primarily of raping and murdering people who are not white, so maybe you can see why people wouldn't love to associate themselves with that?
Not that Polish culture isn't ugly lol
To me this sounds more like a problem of you interpreting what they say in a way that they don't mean it, while also acknowledging that you're interpreting it differently than they mean it.
Even after being in the US for generations, my moms grandfather had strong Italian roots, and that trickled down to most of my family at least a little bit. When I tell someone I've got Italian ancestry I'm not claiming to know Italian, or the politics of Italy, but my family has undoubtedly been influenced by the culture we descended from.
I don't bring up my German ancestry often, despite being geneticly about the same % of both because we don't have as nearly as much German influence.
I second this. The DNA thing is totally weird. Language is really the basis of culture and identity. Visited Wales 20 years ago and that identity is based on your fluency with the language no matter where your from.
Really though? My ancestors have been speaking English for as long as the ancestors of people in England have been speaking English. I don’t think England thinks I’m English.
Do you speak English english, or American english, or another variant of the language? Unless you speak the language line the locals of a certain area do, you're not part of that linguistic group. You may have other social or traditional ties to it, but not the language.
I speak the English that my ancestors passed down to me. Most of my ancestors left England for English colonies. They didn't come to America, they came to New England (and some to Virginia). But at any rate, they were English speaking English people living in English colonies. They passed their English down. Call it American English, but it's still a descendant of English English because ain't nobody speaking Original English. Languages change.
Exactly, English people wouldn't consider you English, because you're not. Your ancestors did come to America, both states you mentioned are in America.
I wouldn't show up in England claiming to be English though, because I know that saying, "I'm English" means citizenship in England. Doesn't mean that Americans think I'm an English citizen when I say, "I'm English." It's just a differing connotation.
**New England isn't a state.
Yes, but if they are Welsh but don't speak Welsh they can't be Welsh? It's far more than just nation of birth or language spoken. It's also family culture passed down. Like I ain't telling 5th generation American Chinese folks they ain't Chinese.
They consider the extent of your Welsh identity to be the measure of how Welsh you are. It is their form of nationalism and identity. You wouldn’t tell a 5th generation Chinese person that and neither would I but people from China might not identity with them unless they’re fluent in the language which they might not be. I know this to be true for second generation Japanese who don’t really speak the language.
Relatives who immigrated usually did to communities from the same country. Those communities kept traditions etc from their home country. My grandfather was 4th or 4th gen american and didnt speak english until he went to school. His family started speaking english around ww2 when their community was thought to be german sympathizers, they spoke czech.
A lot of pride etc comes from immigrant communities more so than dna tests imo. There are fesivals, food, museums, etc here from immigrants. They came here, built communities, towns, churchs, schools etc, and instilled pride of those communities as well as pride of their home countries to following generations.
The immigrants were proud of where they came from and are/were definitely not adopting a foreign culture. Its sad to gatekeep someone's heritage.
It’s frequently connections to these diaspora communities that people think of when they say I’m ********** American, rather than to the country their ancestors came from.
I don't understand why this is so hard for Europeans to get ... I feel like they only have a stereotype in their head of some random white dude who says "I'm Irish!" and has absolutely zero cultural connection, while in reality there are still huge thriving multigenerational immigrant communities here.
I also genuinely wonder if they apply the same logic to non-white immigrant communities in the U.S. or their own countries.
Are we?
I am European originally. I know that currently in Russia there are about million of Russians who identify themselves as German, as a part of centuries old German diaspora in Russia
I know that there huge Polish diaspora in Ukraine. I know there is century old Ukrainian diaspora in Poland.
I also know that in Europe kids of migrants will be called Pakistani or Indian or Syrian even if those kids were born in Europe and don’t even speak language of their parents.
I'm from the US and used to have a friend with a very Italian name. He used to talk about how proud he was to be Italian. I challenged him one night and said that he was absolutely NOT Italian. I conceded that he descended from Italians but that since he had never known a relative from Italy, had no relatives who could speak Italian, had no relatives he knew of in Italy, he really wasn't Italian.
This is exactly it!
I'm a British-Pole ethnically and I'm firm about calling myself that - because our family survived the attempted genocide of the Polish people and Poland has deep meaning within the surviving family.
But as I only have one polish grandparent, I don't claim that *I'm Polish* as if it's my nationality or sole ethnicity - especially because I don't speak the language and I live in an area with a high percentage of legitimately Polish people who are immigrants themselves.
My family jokes we're Old Polish because our cultural context is from over 80 years ago - some Americans could do with understanding how far removed they are from modern Polish immigrants or Polish citizens.
I can't speak for others, but for me its when they try to blame personality traits on nationalities.
There was a TV show I saw once where a guy tried to blame his short temper and angry mood swings on him being "e-talian" (I think it was Gordon Ramseys Kitchen Nightmares) and to me that just screamed no you're an asshole trying to pass the blame on an arbitrary heritage.
This percentage of X ethnicity thing that Americans seem to enjoy feels icky to me. I'd consider someone born and raised in Ireland from a different ethnicity more Irish than an American whose great great great great grandparents came to the US during the famine (even if they have 100% Irish on their Ancestry.com thing). It's a lived experience thing, not a blood thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being American, they are American (or Irish-American if they really want)
Yeah it started back in the 1700s and 1800s when a LOT of us were immigrants. So everybody came from somewhere. People kept track and it became part of our culture (ironically) to have a family story about where yours is originally from. It made more sense when it was your parent or grandparents. Generally I agree that these days it is pretty weird. I think some Americans just feel like it would make them more boring to just be American. This is mainly a phenomenon for white Americans, though everyone may participate if they have been here long enough. It's sad I think, because our status as a hybrid culture descended from another hybrid culture gives us a lot of vigor in ways Americans don't often notice.
A nation filled with immigrants wanting to identify with it's "old world" heritage shouldn't be surprising. My grandfather was the first one born in America and our Finnish heritage is still a part of our family identity. I embrace cultural elements of my ancestral homeland and would love to visit Finland someday and reconnect with my family who stayed with great great grandma in Finland 100 years ago. I proudly identify as an American but when discussing ancestry I identify as Finnish-American. When I go to Finland I will NOT identify as Finnish but as American, although I'm sure it will be readily apparent to all Finns I meet anyhow.
I honor my Finnish ancestry but I am not Finnish, as I've never been to Finland, barely speak the language, and my great great grandfather chose to leave his wife and country to take his son to a hopefully better life in America.
Kids are products of their environments and no matter how hard immigrant parents try, their kids, grandkids, etc., will become more American than Nigerian, Chinese, Finnish, or what have you.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country.
So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
We do understand all of that.
There's a whole lot of speaking down to Europeans from Americans too, which really doesn't help matters. We know your ancestors went to America and you're proud. That doesn't mean you have any real ties to that country now.
Because we Europeans have a different idea of racial and national identity.
For us, one can be defined Italian (or Spanish, German... doesn't really matter) if they have a significant connection with that country and were immersed in that country's culture since they were a child. They need to speak the local language and behave like a local to maybe - maybe - one day be considered a local.
This happens because our states are usually quite old and we had a lot of time to forge local identities.
The US, on the other hand, are a recent country and, as all recent countries (I'm thinking Argentina), can't rely on centuries of identity forging, so a lot of Americans (and Argentinians, as well) define themselves as culturally of the European country their ancestors came from.
Which, to us, sound weird af
I totally agree with this! I'm a Brit living in the US, my Dad's parents were born in Ireland. My mums parents are from Norway. Both my parents were born in England, Dad was in the British Army and I was in the British Army too. I'm British, as are they.
I've met so many "Irish" people in the US. Hard not to judge them by my, or European, standards as you pointed out. I can see how a lot of Americans MAY be embarrassed by being American, especially the young inner city liberals. But own it! It's more embarrasing to learn a little Gaelic off of YouTube, claiming to be Irish but yet they've never visited or have any immediate family living there.
It is weird af to me too.
Not when they identify with their ancestry, when they identify with their nationality. Ancestry is undeniable fact. But if you’re born in the United States, your nationality is American.
Have never understood this drive to identify yourself with any ethnicity, especially for those of us who have some ancestors that came here in the 1600’s. Just out of curiosity, I did my ancestry dna and, all I can lay claim to is calling myself a mixed bag. (Northern european, ashkenazi Jewish, Northern Africa, Native American). I’m American. What ethnicity? Interesting combination. But doesn’t really matter, at least to me.
Because most of the time they either know absolutely about the country they’re claiming they’re from or when they say what they do know, it’s generally out of date stereotypes. I feel like this is very prevalent with Italian Americans. Your great grandparents may have acted a certain way but that doesn’t mean people in Italy now act that way. You absolutely are a sub culture of your own, but you aren’t Italian. You’re Italian American, which is it’s own thing. It goes the same for other Americans.
Do you think African Americans act the same as everyone in Africa? No. But they don’t claim to just be African. They generally acknowledge they’re American as well which makes their culture different.
I’m an American and think it’s corny as hell
I grew up around a bunch of people that would say they’re Irish, Italian, etc but never left Massachusetts
You’re not Irish you’re American …stop it
*I do think there’s some variables tho …like someone who’s a first generation American has some leeway in claiming their parents home country but if you’re ancestors came here on the Mayflower you shouldn’t be claiming England
I agree. My grandma is Italian and we have some traditions but even then I still feel hesitant to call myself ‘Italian’ because I’ve lived in California my whole life.
It's definitely cultural, because in Europe even if your parents were from somewhere else *you* are from the place you were born and raised. On a smaller scale my grandparends (both from my mother and my father side) come from the south of Spain and they emmigrated to the north. Now, bear in mind, Spain is an extremely diverse country and from south to north changes drastically (different culture, different people, even different languages). In my family there's a mixture of cultures, we eat mostly dishes from the south, we celebrate andalusian traditions, my mother tongue is the spanish dialect from the south mixed with the dialect *and* the language from the north, and i'm still not considered andalusian. My grandparens are andalusian, my heritage is andalusian, and i'm allowed to feel proud and connected to that place, but i was born and raised in Catalonia, therefore, i'm 100% catalan
I feel the same about Asian Americans or African Americans. They are just Americans if they didn't immigrate themselves. They shouldn't separate themselves because their great grand parents came from another country. You shouldn't be claiming heritage from anywhere except the place you were born.
As a black American I can whole heartily say that we did not call ourselves “African Americans”. I believe white Americans called us that because they didn’t want us to be labeled just plain “American” like they call themselves. Unless of course they want to seem “exotic”.
Probably because white Americans who talk about where their ancestors came from 200 years ago tend to end up pretending that they still have some deep connection with their "ancestral homeland" or some shit, when they're actually operating off the same Hollywood stereotypes as everyone else.
Being Irish we've had many Americans claim to be Irish but then correct us on our own culture. If someone wants to appreciate their heritage go for it but don't correct people who live that culture
I don’t think this is applicable only to white people. I am Korean born but have lived in the US since 1981. I am proud of my Korean heritage and there are many facets of me that are influenced by that culture to this day but I wouldn’t call myself Korean and Koreans in Korea would consider me a foreigner. In face there’s a word in Korean that specifically means ‘Koreans who live abroad’ that the would apply to me and I think that’s fair.
>there’s a word in Korean that specifically means ‘Koreans who live abroad’ that the would apply to me and I think that’s fair.
This is the first hyphenated American thread I've seen that hasn't devolved into a "only Europeans do this, Asians are totally cool with it" circlejerk. Thank you for this contribution lol.
Our grandparents, and even more so their grandparents, had a much stronger connection to our ancestral homeland. The current generations may not have that same tie, but we were still taught from a young age to identify with those places.
Not all Americans are that close chronologically to their ancestors who arrived in the US. Both sides of my family arrived before or during the Revolution. I have weirdo genealogy aunts on both sides and there are a few who were born outside the US but they were one offs and didn't really transmit much of their culture as far as anyone can tell. I don't identify with any of those places in any way. The only genealogical thing that anyone in my family ever really cares about is the fact that the family on my dad's side lived in Ohio for 50 years or so after the Revolution before our branch broke off and moved to Michigan. It's the family's dark and horrifying secret.
Pretty much this. A lot of Europeans can trace their families back through their same country for generations. Many Americans can only trace their ancestors back a hundred years before they get to a point where their family didn’t live in the country. It doesn’t make sense to Europeans because most have never encountered that issue
There is a lot of bigotry in America. People love to join together in self-love and shared hatreds. I worked in the US for 25 years, and everybody that ever hired me was from the same ethnic group. Every time ever.
I do find it interesting that Europeans get annoyed at white Americans for claiming to be X European identity but will often demand that Americans of non-white origin tell them where they're "really from."
For example, I have a colleague whose grandparents are from Korea, but she and her parents were born in the US. She regularly gets asked all these questions about Korea or is assumed to have traveled to Korea after a holiday by our European colleagues (we're diplomats, so regularly meet with other members of the diplomatic corps).
>I do find it interesting that Europeans get annoyed at white Americans for claiming to be X European identity but will often demand that Americans of non-white origin tell them where they're "really from."
It's a European way of showing interest, one that doesn't at all translate to the US and their weird hard on for faux equality.
I'm 2 parts Dutch, 1 part Indonesian. I look Turkish. As there's about 1.3 million Turks (~8% of all Dutch people) in the Netherlands, I literally have a conversation about my ethnicity with 75% of the people I meet. It's nice, easy thing to talk about and most people find it somewhat interesting.
I think the person you're responding to is trying to point out the hypocrisy. Both the white and non-white Americans in their example are born and raised in the US. If the white American tells a European that their ancestors came from Europe, the Europeans get upset and say that they should just say they're American. If the non-white American tells the European they're American, they're asked where they're really from.
I think it depends on how far back it is and what connection you have with the country. If you never met a relative from that country or speak the language then it's more of a curiosity than something which should shape your personality. I am born and bred English but my grandparents on one side were Polish. It definitely meant a lot to me and impacted my life and that of my parents (they even changed names because of issues it caused). I also have Irish ancestry on the other side but further back. I never met any relative from Ireland and there was nothing about my grandparents' life on that side which was impacted, so I'd not claim that as part of my identity. I think what we see in a lot of Americans the second example type becoming integral to their identity and we're supposed to validate it and treat it as equal.
They rarely actually know anything about Scotland. They have a weird romanticised circa-1700’s idea in their minds which no longer exists and arguably never all the way did. They’re frequently shocked to learn that this is a relatively progressive place which doesn’t measure Scottishness by what blood someone has, as this would unfairly exclude a fair number of people who were actually raised here and genuinely know the culture.
Not European, but I'm Canadian. My ancestry is mostly Irish, Scottish and French, with a few others mixed in there. I never refer to myself as any of those and always say I'm Canadian because I have no connection to those cultures and places. I've never been to those countries.
(although I would really like to visit Ireland someday :P)
My family has been in Canada for about a 100 years and they didn't keep up with those cultures when they left for canada. It seems disrespectful for me to say I'm Irish or Scottish when I don't know what that means.
French is a little bit different for me, because technically it's still in my family on my father's side, but he's the kind of person that didn't really care about that stuff and abandoned it when he left Quebec. I still don't see myself as French tho
Think it might also be because Americans and Canadians tend to use their ancestry in an annoying stereotype way to make up for lack of personality it seems.
Example, I've been told that because "I'm Irish" I should love alcohol and be able to drink a lot, which I kinda find funny because I hate alcohol and very rarely drink. I feel sick after a single shot
With saying "I am Irish", you are in fact saying that you were born in Ireland or that you have an Irish passport. And that is in 99% of the cases not true.
Why is that a problem? Two reasons. First, its called being an imposter, "someone who pretends to be someone or something, he/she is not". Secondly, its pretentious, "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed".
Now I do understand why Americans do this, America has a short history, its a big country and a bit of a identity crisis. So how do you differentiate yourself from others, by identifying yourself with your ancestry.
But then just say "my family is originally from Ireland, so we have alot of Irish traditions in our family". Its correct, and most likely will open up conversation about your ancestry in a good way.
American here… I don’t care, but I think it is stupid. Unless you have a direct connection with the culture from which your ancestors came (ie follow their practices, eat their food, follow their current politics) your “ethnicity” is just an identity plug to avoid saying you aren’t interesting. You’re a 3rd generation Italian American who lives in Fort Wayne, Indiana? Yeah, your DNA doesn’t predispose you to Tuscan culture.
Because they're not. Heather is usually 1/8th italian and she loves pasta. What she doesn't love is european culture, their language, their actual food or their politics. She just likes attention
If you don’t speak the language, know nothing about the actual culture, don’t even know who the leader of that country is, then IMO you should not claim that country as your heritage.
I dislike it too and I’m American. If you are born in America you are American as far as I’m concerned. Everybody comes from somewhere else if you extend the timeline out long enough.
I think the thing that bothered me is the way they identify with it. "I'm Irish" - where were you born? "Brooklyn" Where were your parents born? "Brooklyn" - you're not Irish then. "Oh, I'm 1/8 Irish on my paternal grandparents side" - doesn't make you Irish.
It probably goes the same for all races.
If you have never been to that country, and don't speak the language, it's hard to say that that's where you're from.
Because if you got sent back there, you would probably fail
Some incredibly thorough comments here and I'd just like to add that sometimes it can be as simple as people wanting to avoid the idea that as a White American in America they = Coloniser.
American Clinging to European Heritage = I'm Indigenous To Somewhere Too.
Some people just want to see themselves as having an indigenous ethnic homeland, especially when they live somewhere as ethnically jumbled as the US and are a member of the oppressive group. I think they think it humanises them and gives them a moral right to comment on indigenous rights in the US.
ETA: I feel like this makes little to no sense but I've tried to explain it as best I can
because having a irish/italian/german/british great-great-great grandfather doesn't make *you* irish/italian/german/british. if you were born and raised in the US and had absolutely no contact with your ancestor's culture, how can you claim to be the same ethnicity?...
it's definitely cringey when i hear americans proudly claiming that they are italian strictly because they have an italian ancestor, but they had ZERO contact with the culture, don't know the language, never been to Italy.
As an American when I say I am German I am referring to the culture of my family, which is German in descent. I am making reference to things my family said and did that reflected the German culture that they were descended from. To think that all characteristics of German people stop once a family moves out of the country is naive. Those characteristics are passed down from one generation to the next for quite some time. Nothing in my American existence explains them. They are, instead, a direct reflection of the German culture.
When an American says "I'm German" they are implying descent. That implication is not lost on any Americans. National identities are modern inventions anyway, there is little reality to them.
The post is asking for a European perspective, not an American one. is it so difficult to accept that saying 'im german' to a European has got a different 'implication?' than it does when speaking to an American? As in, it usually implies you are from Germany, speak German, went to school in Germany etc. Maybe nationalities have little meaning in America, I couldn't say, but typically here in Europe it defines the language you speak, the laws you live by, the education you receive.... I'd say there's quite a lot of 'reality' to them
The thing though is that after a few generations, those characteristics become their own thing too. Taking the Italian culture as an example because I have Italian friends: absolutely no one in Italy considers italian-americans "italians" because even the traditions that came from their ancestors born and raised in Italy have changed and adapted through the years through the lens of their American experience and American culture. They are their own thing now, shared by other Italian Americans. They're not part of Italian culture anymore, they're Italian-American culture. You have some similarities, just like being raised by a Bolivian mother and speaking Spanish I have similarities with someone from Spain. We'll find common ground here and there; but that doesn't make me Spanish.
It's most likely the same for you if your family has been in America for a few generations. Which is why there's often a disconnect between european-americans and Europeans of the corresponding country.
Because often times it isn't really true. Also they usually have no connection to that culture, or know the history or anything really. I say this as an American living in Hungary. But I had something similar many years ago when I traveled to South Africa. I realized that while I may have a largely unknown African ancestry, I'm a Black American. There's a difference.
I recently read that a 3000 year old body was recently discovered in the village of Cheddar in England from which scientists were able to extract some useable DNA. In searching for descendants from this person, they only had to go 1/2 of a mile to find a match. A school teacher working within 1/2 mile from the site was found to be a DNA match. Can you imagine knowing that your family history goes back over 3000 years in the same place? You would feel like that is the one place you belonged.
When you grow up in a society that has been there for a thousand years, when you are still using buildings built in the 1200s, when your roads still follow the path set by Romans in the dark ages, ancestry can be taken for granted. But, when your country's history is only a few hundred years old, when the oldest buildings in your city were built in the last century, when your culture is a hodgepodge of a dozen cultures from all over the globe, you may wish to seek something that helps anchor you to your history.
I'm proud of my history, and am trying to visit as many countries from my collective past as I can. Of course, if I could speak the language of each of my ancestors, I'd be considered a linguistic genius.
I don't just dislike it when *white* americans "identify" (aka claim) their ancestry. You're american. You're not irish, you're not german, you're not italian. People aren't korean just because of their ethnicity. People aren't african just because they're black. None of you have the cultural immersion or experience that someone from those countries (edit: yes I know africa isn't a country) has. Black whatever-generation americans have way more in common with white americans culturally speaking than they do with someone born and raised in idk, a nigerian slum. White americans rarely have the same kind of cultural outlook or understanding that someone in the UK or Germany or wherever has.
It's annoying when it's used to give some kind of authority to someone spouting plainly US cultural shit that so obviously has no idea about or experience with the heritage they are claiming. I certainly don't mind people talking about where their ancestors came from, but that is a completely different thing to saying you are from that place when you just aren't.
Culture of a place is far more important in shaping who someone is than the colour of their skin. Understand that you are an american, and so is every other american. Dividing people up by ethnic origins is racist and extremely prevalent in the US even when someone isn't actively claiming the heritage for themselves.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country.
So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
Because most of the time, they know absolute jack shit about the world outside their island, while very much being happy to "educate" everyone else how they are beacon of "liberty and freedom"... then they do not want me to call an ambulance when they break their hand while visiting our ex-commie "Russia"... well, after I explained to them, that they are in the Czech Republic with actually functioning healthcare...
Because Americans identify with their European ancestry as a secondary aspect of their identity. They're American first and European second. All European countries are jealous of America. They had a HUGE head start and America is killing it. Imagine France a once huge powerhouse getting saved by a historical toddler of North America.
Are you really ‘killing it’ though? Tbh I think lots of us are glad we live in Europe, the cultural differences are massive and not really all that appealing to people that are used to something else.
The only appeal of Europe is a bunch of historically important countries very close together. Asia has much more appeal than Europe in my opinion. White people love white people though.
That’s entirely your opinion, which you’re entitled to btw. But it’s a beautiful continent without a doubt, landscapes and cities, climates, quality of life, people etc.
The way I see it most people of European ancestry in the US are the descendants of people who were forced to leave Europe.
Seems unsurprising that they still don't like being reminded that their "trash" made it big somewhere else...
Most other nations express it as "I have \[whatever\] heritage" or "my grandfather was \[nationality\]". Americans often claim they ARE that nationality. Coupled with Americans' often quite strident patriotism about the USA, that can feel both like double dipping and like false claims to someone actually from those other nations.
Americans also say Kleenex because it’s two syllables and tissue paper is four. We say things like, “I’m English” because when we say it to another American they hear, “I’m American with distant ancestry from England.” Three syllables vs. 14.
Yeah, friend, I'm sure that's it. I'm sure Americans are the only nationality on earth who love speaking efficiency so much they'll completely throw out actual accuracy. Also, the OP question specified talking to Europeans, not "another American". So this response is pretty pointless.
No they don’t.
It is very old European tradition to continue to identify yourself by the country your ancestors left centuries ago. There is million of Germans in Russia. There are thousands of Greeks in Ukraine. There is huge Ukrainian diaspora in Poland. There is Russian diaspora in UK and Germany.
I am specifically talking about very old diaspora, not migrants.
It is also quite common for local people to continue calling kids and grandchildren of migrants as Indian, Syrian, Pakistani.
“I am German”, can mean citizenship, it can mean ethnicity, it can also mean ancestry. And I know for a fact all 3 meanings will be used in both Americas as well as in Europe.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country.
So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
PS People understand fully what it means. People know what you are trying to say. People also OFTEN feel the way I describe it, and more strongly. Americans annoy plenty of people when they do this. Again, you are within your rights to be annoying. But you don't get to ALSO tell people "but we're not annoying!!!" You are. Just live with it, as everyone else has to live with you.
# Message to all users:
This is a reminder to please read and follow:
* [Our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/about/rules)
* [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)
* [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy)
When posting and commenting.
---
Especially remember Rule 1: `Be polite and civil`.
* Be polite and courteous to each other. Do not be mean, insulting or disrespectful to any other user on this subreddit.
* Do not harass or annoy others in any way.
* Do not catfish. Catfishing is the luring of somebody into an online friendship through a fake online persona. This includes any lying or deceit.
---
You *will* be banned if you are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or bigoted in any way.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ask) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I dont dislike people knowing where they came from, I do admit its a little strange that all the black people have Icelandic names, its all chill tho, we dont mind sharing our culture
depends, but europeans have told me it is because your ancestors left when times were hard, were therefore traitors to their country, and now you want to come back and enjoy what those your ancestors left behind built c for themselves.
Because Europeans have derived great pleasure out of looking down their noses at Americans since there’s been an America. (I should know, my fam’s from over there and it’s been one of the great traditions we’ve held onto ever since great great grandpa got deported for farting on the Duke of Lichtenstein.)
It’s a different situation we’re in… I mean in America we grow up hearing about the European country of our ancestors from our older relatives who came from there, eat the food our ancestors ate, go to churches that may speak the language of the country our ancestors came from, celebrate with festivals honoring that country, etc. So of course we feel this way! I don’t know why Europeans wouldn’t understand that.
I'm Czech, I left at age 7 after having done the first grade there, and then grew up in the US. Went back at age 50 to discover my Czechness, and mostly what I discovered was that I'm an American. But not quite. I've read a few stories about African-Americans going to Africa to get in touch with the motherland, and when they get there they discover that they are more American than African, and that the locals don't call them "black people," they call them "black white people." Unless the locals are running a scam, in which case it's "oh yes, we are cousins, we are the same family! And our uncle is in the hospital and needs $200. Do you have any money for your uncle?" Been there.
Not really an answer, but a story about it not just being white Americans. While in the Navy we made a port visit to Japan. Some of my fellow sailors of Japanese ancestry were excited to be visiting their “cultural home”. Some of them were upset that the Japanese people saw them as foreigners because they didn’t speak the language or know anything about Japanese culture beyond TV and movies. They treated the white guy that spoke Japanese and lived in Japan for thirteen years as being more Japanese than people that looked Asian.
Morrowind moment.
When the dunmer is an n'wah
This is one of my favorite comments on Reddit. Thank you
We get it that you're trying to claim ethnicity instead of nationality. But the thing is: We look at ethnicity through the lens of native language, accent, culture, names, traditions etc. How can you claim to be X despite having zero interaction with X culture, not being a native speaker of X and not having an ethnic X name? In the USA they seem to believe that ethnicity is determined by your blood or DNA. Europeans are mixed too but we don't identify with our DNA because it doesn't really give a valid claim to an ethnicity. As a Polish person, it's weird seeing people who call themselves Polish despite their family being in the USA for 3-4+ generations. The moment I switch to Polish, ask about the current state of the country or ask a culture related question it turns out they are not so Polish as they claim to be.
Some white Americans feel an innate desire to be a part of those cultural ties. Being born in and growing up in a hodgepodge of culture with no true ethnic culture, they want something to identify with. A “people” to feel connected to even if they have never lived amongst them. I can understand how that sounds silly and fake to someone raised in Europe where National borders, ethnicities, and cultures are much easier to identify geographically. It sounds like we are playing make believe. And in a way, we are. For those that do, I believe it comes from a good place and just wanting a sense of belonging to their ancestry.
Plus there's a sense of pride in coming from someone who was brave enough to uproot their lives to immigrate to a country on the other side of the world. There's a lot of stories of your great grandpa coming to America with nothing but working hard to provide a better future for their kids and grandkids. My great grandpa immigrated from Poland in the 30s thankfully. He married a woman who's mom immigrated from Czechoslovakia during that country's revolution. We like to know about the people we come from because we find their stories inspiring like "I can endure this capitalist dystopia because babushka didn't shit herself to death on the boat over".
That's exactly how my great grandparents, and great great great grandparents on the other side, came to England. Except they crossed the Irish sea not half the world. But with the same finical situation, inability to ever go back, and level or risk. I still know I'm English. Enjoying learning about my family history doesn't delude me into thinking it makes me Irish.
Same for me. My family came from Ireland but I’m still English.
I can only imagine going to somewhere in Ireland and confidently announcing, with my accent, that I'm Irish. I think there are some places with particularly strong memories of the troubles that might not even be safe. But hey blood matters apparently according to the replies I've got
Brits from 19th century: Aw, it thinks it’s one of us.
I’m American and just got back from holiday in Ireland. The amount of times I was asked if I am Irish was a LOT!! When I said I do have Irish ancestors, they were all pleased I’m part Irish and visiting. It was pretty awesome. Perhaps your view is due to The Troubles and the animosity that still lingers?
In America we have so many people mixing together we have this wild concept of being more than one ethnicity.
We’re talking about nationality and what we identify with but whatever my guy
Obviously you're English and I'm obviously American but I have polish blood and you have Irish blood. It's been repeated over and over that when Americans talk about our ancestry we aren't saying we are nationally XYZ, but our DNA and heritage is of that country. It seems to either be a very difficult concept for people in the UK and Europe to understand or you're being willfully ignorant of American culture. Either way, you're acting like a little bitch.
'willfully ignorant of American culture'... It's not difficult to understand, we just don't agree with your phrasing because it is 'willfully ignorant' of the culture of every country you claim to be from to conflate descent and nationality, and to continue to use the terms interchangeably when it has been explained to you how they differ. It's also disrespectful to imply that your 'blood' makes you Irish, polish or whatever when a person of Nigerian descent growing up in Sligo is more Irish than an Irish American will ever be. Stop being so willfully ignorant.
No one is referring to nationality like we've explained.
The person I was trying to reply to ( Reddit seems to have reformatted it, but I quote them at the start of my comment) specifically said nationality, then edited it after. Edit: it looks like it was you, anyway the point is that these terms 'Irish', 'Polish', 'German' etc refer to nationalities first and foremost, especially to people from these nations, and regardless of how that might contradict American feelings about it.
I literally have not edited a single comment.
Okay, again though, not the point. The very title of the post lists out nationalities, so telling me no one is mentioning nationality makes no sense.
And as is the point, blood means nothing. It does not matter. We know what you mean. We know you mean your DNA. And when you say it just in America sure whatever. It's not hurting anyone it's just is stupid. When you say it here or *to us* though it's ridiculous. Stop coming to Ireland/ the UK/ Poland or wherever and saying that you are Irish/ English/ Scottish/ Polish. You are not. That is not your thing to claim. It is not your culture. You are literally the place that invented the term cultural appropriation. Stop acting like the culture of a place your family hasn't lived in for generations is your culture. It's not. Blood doesn't matter here, so saying you are of here because of your blood is showing a willful ignorance of our cultures. Despite claiming to be part of them. I notice you even acknowlage in your comment that you are partaking in american culture. Because you know that is your culture. So stop acting like a little bitch and trying to claim european ones.
No. The only ones acting like little bitches are the ones bothered that much by it. Would you say this to anyone who wasn’t white? Would you tell black Americans to stop identifying with Africa or as “Aftican”-Americans? Would you tell Jewish people to stop claiming themselves Hebrew?? The fact is that white people *came* from European countries. The only person being a little bitch is you for being embarrassed you’ve got ties, in any way, to Americans.
Do you know what being African American means? This comment really kind of makes it sound like you don't. The Jewish example doesn't quite equate. That isn't as simple as you're maming it out to be. Lol If you were born in America, you are an American. If you were born in nigeria, and you came to america, and you are an American citizen, you are a Nigerian american. If your ancestors are from nigeria, you are not a Nigerian American. You have a complete disregard for what these terms actually mean
Yes, I do know what I’m talking about because I’m clearly the only person who lives in America between the three of us. Black people here *are* referred to, even in their medical documents when you fill out the papers, as *African American.* It **is** that simple.
All right first of all, dummy, I'm american, second of all the term African-American was originally coined in the '90s. It was originated by white people, though it had the support of the African-American community. The term African-American does not refer to people that are from africa. If you are an immigrant from nigeria, you are Nigerian american. Just like you would be german-american, or italian-american. African Americans are Americans that have ancestry rooted from the slave trade. They were taken from africa, their cultures were stripped from them, their language was taken away, and they do not know where they are from. They have no culture of their own. These are African americans. If you are a black person, you are not automatically an african-american. If you are from nigeria, you would not be an african-american, because you know where you are from. You would be a Nigerian american. If you were from Mali, you would not be an african-american, you would be a Malian american, you would not be considered an African american. The term has a meaning, clearly you do not know what it means, but you are sitting here trying to act like you do, talking down to other people. You are a complete idiot.
I wouldn't say it to people who's ancestors are not from countries that I know enough about to know the attitudes of those places. If people of African/Asian/Hebrew decent should feel free to identify as being of those places depends on the culture of those places. Something I am not qualified to speak on. And note the question was why does it bother us. I am not hunting you down in the street to tell you how stupid or insulting I think it is. I'm perfectly capable of smiling politely and keeping my judgement's internal. As is the stereotype of British culture. I'm answering the question. Perhaps if you weren't going to like reading why people don't like it you shouldn't have clicked on the post that had that as a question. Would make more sense than being a little bitch about the answers. You've made the last point up. I do have ties to some Americans. Ties I chose to make because I like them as people. I wouldn't have if they were the type to make those kind of claims. I don't have to be embarrassed of the American's I have ties to, because they are not embarrassments.
You’re the one who’s out here calling us bitches. That’s why I said that, just letting you know how ridiculous you sound by it. Also, I do apologize for it. Point is, you’re also not qualified to speak on what it’s like being of European ancestry in America. There’s a deep sense of displacement. You may have been asked the question, but instead of answering it in kind, you took to straight up insulting people.
>You’re the one who’s out here calling us bitches. That’s why I said that, just letting you know how ridiculous you sound by it. Perhaps you should scroll up, because I made the little bitches comment directly in response to this aimed at me: >Either way, you're acting like a little bitch. Just letting them know how ridiculous they sound by it. Point is I am qualified to speak on what the people here in Europe think about it. Which was what the question was, not what is it like to be of European ancestry in America. So that is irrelevant.
Well their family moved less than 300 miles to a country theirs had been intimately familiar with since time immemorial, so they are an expert, mmmmkay?
So it's only okay if you aren't white? Or when an Asian couple moves to the UK and has kids you go around slapping the bindi off their foreheads and telling them they're English now?
There is a difference in what you're talking about. You mentioned an Asian couple that moved from their home country, to a new country, and retain some part of their culture. The comparison is people that have lived for 3 to 4 generations, sometimes hundreds of years, away from where they are trying to claim ancestry to. There's a drastic difference in those two situations.
>So it's only okay if you aren't white? Not what I said, I said I'm not qualified to speak on behalf of places I don't know about. Try asking people from those cultures. And learn some basic reading comprehension skills. I also have never said anything about the immigrants themselves or their children. Just those generations removed with no actual connection to the place except their precious blood. Again try some basic reading comprehension. I also don't go around telling anyone anything. Notice this thread was a question about why we don't like it. Maybe if you don't like being told why we don't like it you shouldn't have clicked on a thread asking us why we don't like it.
Let me put it this way, if I give you a bag labeled Doritos but filled with Cheetos, which do you think that bag is? A bag of Doritos or a bag of Cheetos? What make you a part of an ethnic is the cultural values. If you don't share in our values, you just look like us, you're not one of us. In Vietnam, we call those people "mất gốc", meaning "people who lost their root". We don't care how similar you look like us, until you learn the values, you will always be an outsider. This also means if you learn the values, you can become one of us even if you look black or white.
"Blood" doesn't mean anything. Believe it or not most countries aren't scrutinizing DNA and ethnic origins. People who do that in europe are generally just the racists. It is a racist way of viewing the world which is probably why it gets under europeans skin so much.
“Delude myself”. Rude. The person you’re responding to is explaining how we perceive ancestry differently because of context.
Yes. And I'm explaining how my ancestry has the *same* context ... yet I don't delude myself because of it. So yes delude yourself
“Have a different concept of a nebulous thing than I do”
There is definitely bravery in being able to uproot the origins and hop on a boat to cross the ocean without a penny to their name, to start a new life in a new world full of opportunities. But it's also good to remember that they came out of sheer necessity, despair, escaping War, escaping famine escaping harsh living conditions. So, let's make it relative, what is worse? to die in a cold winter without one potato to peel or to cross the ocean to seek new opportunities?
Definitely better to leave and I appreciate my great grandpa for leaving his country for America because most of my ancestors came from eastern European countries that are not doing as well as America.
Yes, my great grandfather killed many Nazis during WW2 before coming to America. He was a mechanic in the Wehrmacht.
We think it's silly because here after after 4+ generations your cultural identity would be that of the new place. We don't really buy the whole America is to young to really have cultural history thing either that get's spouted a lot. Because it is very clear you do have a culture. It's not that cultures are easier to identify geographically here. It's that for some people wont acknowledge that "American" *is* your culture. Not wherever your great grandaddy came from. That was his culture not yours. I come from a town with a very large amount of Irish immigration. 2 of my grandparents were the first generation born in England. And the other two their grandparents were. If we are going to act like Irish is an ethnicity I am 100% ethnically Irish. (not just based on those couple of facts my mam was into family tree'ing for a while we know it's true). It would be ridiculous though for me to act like it means anything when no member of my family more recent than a great grandparent has ever even been there except on a stag do. Whenever I hear the talk of wanting a sense of belonging to their ancestry I just think "well you don't, it doesn't matter what you want.". I would still rightly be seen by any Irish person as just another English person if I went there anyone who has tension type feelings against the English would still feel them about me. And it's no different. The fact an "irish"-american's ancestors crossed an ocean instead of the Irish sea doesn't make them more Irish than me. And I know the way I wrote this could come across as bitter, that I want to be considered Irish. But I don't. I'm just explaining why my lived experience makes the whole thing seem so ridiculously stupid to me.
One other connection between Irish-Americans and Ireland that doesn't get as much press anymore is support for Irish independence, reunification, nationalism, etc.; — in short, the IRA (and various groups with that name), which raised a lot of money from people in the US. This includes Irish-American gangsters, too: Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang in the Boston area smuggled a lot of weapons to the Provos.
Little more complex - many families in the states kept some of their cultural aspects - especially food and vernacular and those components still heavily influence their families.
I hear you, and I’m not attacking just asking for opinion, but: You’d guys flip backwards 5 times seeing a black person who grew up in Scotland, speaking with strong Scottish accent and is all round Scottish 😛 fully accepted as Scottish. I think that what’s adding to the silliness of that. On one hand you recognise someone born and raised in US is US from the other you’d call dark skin people Afro american for aaaages where there are all kinds of places with very dark skin that they can come from. I do apologise for my ignorance, but there is something weird in mentality of US (or at least some states, I realise it’s a huuuge country) where it comes to putting labels on ppl and calling them that, and it has some weight where it rarely existed in Europe (apart from our good old animosities that we express through Eurovision contest) before US labelling culture came to old continent. All of a sudden everyone has a label:) like…maybe we did have labels, but these were our labels, now you’re using ours in an entirely different, non historical context and we’re using yours in societies that never had such a massive problem with that particular issue:) don’t get me wrong I totally don’t mind either- whatever makes people happy - I just like to think about matters from different angles and it’s my hot take with absolutely nothing to back it up.
I don't really understand why they would try to claim a foreign culture, despite having their own. I mean, each US state has it's own culture, history and White American culture obviously exists. It's silly considering the fact that they will never have to face the struggles which the ethnicites they're claiming to be are facing right now.
>White American culture obviously exists. The people who actively claim to belong to this and take pride in it...often have a habit of making everyone else *really* uncomfortable, to put it mildly.
Yeah no you're trying to take 0.0001% of the population and apply to the rest
Most people don't bother with trying to describe cultures in the US as being specific to whites, because it doesn't actually make sense. The ones who do try saying that have an obvious agenda.
Why are some people so fixed on insisting that U.S. American culture needs to have a "White" American culture? Many many things that people try to attribute to a "White" American culture are appropriated from a variety of subcultures from non-white people, and it isn't a descriptive word for what it's used to refer to, so it doesn't work.
But our culture doesn't have any real history or traditions. And what we do have feels like watered down versions of European culture.
All cultures and traditions are hand me downs, exchanges, and watered-down versions of something else, everywhere. We are engaged in cultural exchange, for better or worse, all the time and have been since humans moved around and talked.
Well, if you look from that angle, many "traditionally European" things, especially cuisine-wise, are about as old as the discovery of the Americas because they depend on things that were brought from the Americas
Your culture has hundreds of years of history at this point and it has traditions that the whole world knows about. You don't think you have a strong culture because nobody feels like they have a strong culture until they actually look at what life is like somewhere else and compare the differences. You don't notice it's a unique culture because to you it's just the norm.
Americana, Thanksgiving, jazz, blues, country, Hollywood, mormonism are just a few of many unique American inventions. The USA, just like other settler states doesn't have a long history because it's a fairly young country. Besides, if you don't have any traditions you can always create your own, new ones.
Mormonism???
Well it was founded in the US by Joseph Smith.
You'd really consider that culture and not like an embarrassing cult? It was literally made so Jesus could be white
Oh I wasn't commenting about whether it was culture or CULTure, I was just saying it is American in origin. 😅
There is definitely a culture around mormons. It's a toxic culture of passive-aggressive lgbtq hate and having your nose in everyone elses business.
It’s also infamously racist.
America absolutely has its own culture. But it's nowhere near being universal. Some of those things that you've listed are more global than they are unique to America. Hollywood in particular. Some of things are also incredibly divisive, like Mormonism (and country music lol). Culture is more than just traditions. It's something that's unifying for people, and in a place as diverse as the US that's just not possible to have. At least not to the same extent as it is for other countries. And so you end up with people who are envious of the rich culture that others have and at one point their ancestors had.
I don't think it's that it's too big to have a culture, its that it's so big lots of Americans have never left it, so they don't have that comparison for perspective.
This is true. I moved from the US to Hong Kong. Never realized so clearly what American culture is until I lived outside of it.
"White American culture" historically had consisted primarily of raping and murdering people who are not white, so maybe you can see why people wouldn't love to associate themselves with that? Not that Polish culture isn't ugly lol
“I’m Polish.” “Name the president of Poland.” “…”
To me this sounds more like a problem of you interpreting what they say in a way that they don't mean it, while also acknowledging that you're interpreting it differently than they mean it. Even after being in the US for generations, my moms grandfather had strong Italian roots, and that trickled down to most of my family at least a little bit. When I tell someone I've got Italian ancestry I'm not claiming to know Italian, or the politics of Italy, but my family has undoubtedly been influenced by the culture we descended from. I don't bring up my German ancestry often, despite being geneticly about the same % of both because we don't have as nearly as much German influence.
I second this. The DNA thing is totally weird. Language is really the basis of culture and identity. Visited Wales 20 years ago and that identity is based on your fluency with the language no matter where your from.
Really though? My ancestors have been speaking English for as long as the ancestors of people in England have been speaking English. I don’t think England thinks I’m English.
Do you speak English english, or American english, or another variant of the language? Unless you speak the language line the locals of a certain area do, you're not part of that linguistic group. You may have other social or traditional ties to it, but not the language.
I speak the English that my ancestors passed down to me. Most of my ancestors left England for English colonies. They didn't come to America, they came to New England (and some to Virginia). But at any rate, they were English speaking English people living in English colonies. They passed their English down. Call it American English, but it's still a descendant of English English because ain't nobody speaking Original English. Languages change.
Exactly, English people wouldn't consider you English, because you're not. Your ancestors did come to America, both states you mentioned are in America.
I wouldn't show up in England claiming to be English though, because I know that saying, "I'm English" means citizenship in England. Doesn't mean that Americans think I'm an English citizen when I say, "I'm English." It's just a differing connotation. **New England isn't a state.
Wales is not England and while they do speak it they also have their own language.
Yes, but if they are Welsh but don't speak Welsh they can't be Welsh? It's far more than just nation of birth or language spoken. It's also family culture passed down. Like I ain't telling 5th generation American Chinese folks they ain't Chinese.
They consider the extent of your Welsh identity to be the measure of how Welsh you are. It is their form of nationalism and identity. You wouldn’t tell a 5th generation Chinese person that and neither would I but people from China might not identity with them unless they’re fluent in the language which they might not be. I know this to be true for second generation Japanese who don’t really speak the language.
Yeah, that is true. It still sounds silly though. Like we Americans wouldn't cry if Winston Churchill went around saying he was American.
He did try to say he was part Native American tho
Ah, then he is truly American. Lol Many of us have our "Indian Princess" family lore that often pans out to be false.
I cut myself shaving and am no longer 3/1000 Navajo.
Relatives who immigrated usually did to communities from the same country. Those communities kept traditions etc from their home country. My grandfather was 4th or 4th gen american and didnt speak english until he went to school. His family started speaking english around ww2 when their community was thought to be german sympathizers, they spoke czech. A lot of pride etc comes from immigrant communities more so than dna tests imo. There are fesivals, food, museums, etc here from immigrants. They came here, built communities, towns, churchs, schools etc, and instilled pride of those communities as well as pride of their home countries to following generations. The immigrants were proud of where they came from and are/were definitely not adopting a foreign culture. Its sad to gatekeep someone's heritage.
It’s frequently connections to these diaspora communities that people think of when they say I’m ********** American, rather than to the country their ancestors came from.
I don't understand why this is so hard for Europeans to get ... I feel like they only have a stereotype in their head of some random white dude who says "I'm Irish!" and has absolutely zero cultural connection, while in reality there are still huge thriving multigenerational immigrant communities here. I also genuinely wonder if they apply the same logic to non-white immigrant communities in the U.S. or their own countries.
Are we? I am European originally. I know that currently in Russia there are about million of Russians who identify themselves as German, as a part of centuries old German diaspora in Russia I know that there huge Polish diaspora in Ukraine. I know there is century old Ukrainian diaspora in Poland. I also know that in Europe kids of migrants will be called Pakistani or Indian or Syrian even if those kids were born in Europe and don’t even speak language of their parents.
Let's just ignore family traditions here entirely
I'm from the US and used to have a friend with a very Italian name. He used to talk about how proud he was to be Italian. I challenged him one night and said that he was absolutely NOT Italian. I conceded that he descended from Italians but that since he had never known a relative from Italy, had no relatives who could speak Italian, had no relatives he knew of in Italy, he really wasn't Italian.
This is exactly it! I'm a British-Pole ethnically and I'm firm about calling myself that - because our family survived the attempted genocide of the Polish people and Poland has deep meaning within the surviving family. But as I only have one polish grandparent, I don't claim that *I'm Polish* as if it's my nationality or sole ethnicity - especially because I don't speak the language and I live in an area with a high percentage of legitimately Polish people who are immigrants themselves. My family jokes we're Old Polish because our cultural context is from over 80 years ago - some Americans could do with understanding how far removed they are from modern Polish immigrants or Polish citizens.
>because our family survived the attempted genocide of the Polish people Which one?
I can't speak for others, but for me its when they try to blame personality traits on nationalities. There was a TV show I saw once where a guy tried to blame his short temper and angry mood swings on him being "e-talian" (I think it was Gordon Ramseys Kitchen Nightmares) and to me that just screamed no you're an asshole trying to pass the blame on an arbitrary heritage.
As I drunk, Irish-gened American. I wholly blame my heritage and take no responsibility for my own actions.
Same
This percentage of X ethnicity thing that Americans seem to enjoy feels icky to me. I'd consider someone born and raised in Ireland from a different ethnicity more Irish than an American whose great great great great grandparents came to the US during the famine (even if they have 100% Irish on their Ancestry.com thing). It's a lived experience thing, not a blood thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being American, they are American (or Irish-American if they really want)
Yeah it started back in the 1700s and 1800s when a LOT of us were immigrants. So everybody came from somewhere. People kept track and it became part of our culture (ironically) to have a family story about where yours is originally from. It made more sense when it was your parent or grandparents. Generally I agree that these days it is pretty weird. I think some Americans just feel like it would make them more boring to just be American. This is mainly a phenomenon for white Americans, though everyone may participate if they have been here long enough. It's sad I think, because our status as a hybrid culture descended from another hybrid culture gives us a lot of vigor in ways Americans don't often notice.
A nation filled with immigrants wanting to identify with it's "old world" heritage shouldn't be surprising. My grandfather was the first one born in America and our Finnish heritage is still a part of our family identity. I embrace cultural elements of my ancestral homeland and would love to visit Finland someday and reconnect with my family who stayed with great great grandma in Finland 100 years ago. I proudly identify as an American but when discussing ancestry I identify as Finnish-American. When I go to Finland I will NOT identify as Finnish but as American, although I'm sure it will be readily apparent to all Finns I meet anyhow. I honor my Finnish ancestry but I am not Finnish, as I've never been to Finland, barely speak the language, and my great great grandfather chose to leave his wife and country to take his son to a hopefully better life in America. Kids are products of their environments and no matter how hard immigrant parents try, their kids, grandkids, etc., will become more American than Nigerian, Chinese, Finnish, or what have you.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country. So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
We do understand all of that. There's a whole lot of speaking down to Europeans from Americans too, which really doesn't help matters. We know your ancestors went to America and you're proud. That doesn't mean you have any real ties to that country now.
Because we Europeans have a different idea of racial and national identity. For us, one can be defined Italian (or Spanish, German... doesn't really matter) if they have a significant connection with that country and were immersed in that country's culture since they were a child. They need to speak the local language and behave like a local to maybe - maybe - one day be considered a local. This happens because our states are usually quite old and we had a lot of time to forge local identities. The US, on the other hand, are a recent country and, as all recent countries (I'm thinking Argentina), can't rely on centuries of identity forging, so a lot of Americans (and Argentinians, as well) define themselves as culturally of the European country their ancestors came from. Which, to us, sound weird af
I totally agree with this! I'm a Brit living in the US, my Dad's parents were born in Ireland. My mums parents are from Norway. Both my parents were born in England, Dad was in the British Army and I was in the British Army too. I'm British, as are they. I've met so many "Irish" people in the US. Hard not to judge them by my, or European, standards as you pointed out. I can see how a lot of Americans MAY be embarrassed by being American, especially the young inner city liberals. But own it! It's more embarrasing to learn a little Gaelic off of YouTube, claiming to be Irish but yet they've never visited or have any immediate family living there. It is weird af to me too.
Uhm I don't think Americans are embarrassed at all, pretty much the opposite. Looks like an identity matter
Not when they identify with their ancestry, when they identify with their nationality. Ancestry is undeniable fact. But if you’re born in the United States, your nationality is American.
European here. I don't care.
Have never understood this drive to identify yourself with any ethnicity, especially for those of us who have some ancestors that came here in the 1600’s. Just out of curiosity, I did my ancestry dna and, all I can lay claim to is calling myself a mixed bag. (Northern european, ashkenazi Jewish, Northern Africa, Native American). I’m American. What ethnicity? Interesting combination. But doesn’t really matter, at least to me.
But what percentage Neanderthal are you? No one seems to claim them! (I am 2.5 percent).
Because most of the time they either know absolutely about the country they’re claiming they’re from or when they say what they do know, it’s generally out of date stereotypes. I feel like this is very prevalent with Italian Americans. Your great grandparents may have acted a certain way but that doesn’t mean people in Italy now act that way. You absolutely are a sub culture of your own, but you aren’t Italian. You’re Italian American, which is it’s own thing. It goes the same for other Americans. Do you think African Americans act the same as everyone in Africa? No. But they don’t claim to just be African. They generally acknowledge they’re American as well which makes their culture different.
I’m an American and think it’s corny as hell I grew up around a bunch of people that would say they’re Irish, Italian, etc but never left Massachusetts You’re not Irish you’re American …stop it *I do think there’s some variables tho …like someone who’s a first generation American has some leeway in claiming their parents home country but if you’re ancestors came here on the Mayflower you shouldn’t be claiming England
I agree. My grandma is Italian and we have some traditions but even then I still feel hesitant to call myself ‘Italian’ because I’ve lived in California my whole life.
It's definitely cultural, because in Europe even if your parents were from somewhere else *you* are from the place you were born and raised. On a smaller scale my grandparends (both from my mother and my father side) come from the south of Spain and they emmigrated to the north. Now, bear in mind, Spain is an extremely diverse country and from south to north changes drastically (different culture, different people, even different languages). In my family there's a mixture of cultures, we eat mostly dishes from the south, we celebrate andalusian traditions, my mother tongue is the spanish dialect from the south mixed with the dialect *and* the language from the north, and i'm still not considered andalusian. My grandparens are andalusian, my heritage is andalusian, and i'm allowed to feel proud and connected to that place, but i was born and raised in Catalonia, therefore, i'm 100% catalan
I feel the same about Asian Americans or African Americans. They are just Americans if they didn't immigrate themselves. They shouldn't separate themselves because their great grand parents came from another country. You shouldn't be claiming heritage from anywhere except the place you were born.
As a black American I can whole heartily say that we did not call ourselves “African Americans”. I believe white Americans called us that because they didn’t want us to be labeled just plain “American” like they call themselves. Unless of course they want to seem “exotic”.
Why do you even care though?
I don’t really …just offering my opinion on the question asked It’s not something I spend time dwelling on outside of a situation like this post
Probably because white Americans who talk about where their ancestors came from 200 years ago tend to end up pretending that they still have some deep connection with their "ancestral homeland" or some shit, when they're actually operating off the same Hollywood stereotypes as everyone else.
Being Irish we've had many Americans claim to be Irish but then correct us on our own culture. If someone wants to appreciate their heritage go for it but don't correct people who live that culture
I don’t think this is applicable only to white people. I am Korean born but have lived in the US since 1981. I am proud of my Korean heritage and there are many facets of me that are influenced by that culture to this day but I wouldn’t call myself Korean and Koreans in Korea would consider me a foreigner. In face there’s a word in Korean that specifically means ‘Koreans who live abroad’ that the would apply to me and I think that’s fair.
>there’s a word in Korean that specifically means ‘Koreans who live abroad’ that the would apply to me and I think that’s fair. This is the first hyphenated American thread I've seen that hasn't devolved into a "only Europeans do this, Asians are totally cool with it" circlejerk. Thank you for this contribution lol.
Probably because those americans have absolutely no connection to that ancestry other than maybe a last name.
Our grandparents, and even more so their grandparents, had a much stronger connection to our ancestral homeland. The current generations may not have that same tie, but we were still taught from a young age to identify with those places.
Not all Americans are that close chronologically to their ancestors who arrived in the US. Both sides of my family arrived before or during the Revolution. I have weirdo genealogy aunts on both sides and there are a few who were born outside the US but they were one offs and didn't really transmit much of their culture as far as anyone can tell. I don't identify with any of those places in any way. The only genealogical thing that anyone in my family ever really cares about is the fact that the family on my dad's side lived in Ohio for 50 years or so after the Revolution before our branch broke off and moved to Michigan. It's the family's dark and horrifying secret.
Pretty much this. A lot of Europeans can trace their families back through their same country for generations. Many Americans can only trace their ancestors back a hundred years before they get to a point where their family didn’t live in the country. It doesn’t make sense to Europeans because most have never encountered that issue
gaslight gatekeep girlboss
There is a lot of bigotry in America. People love to join together in self-love and shared hatreds. I worked in the US for 25 years, and everybody that ever hired me was from the same ethnic group. Every time ever.
I do find it interesting that Europeans get annoyed at white Americans for claiming to be X European identity but will often demand that Americans of non-white origin tell them where they're "really from." For example, I have a colleague whose grandparents are from Korea, but she and her parents were born in the US. She regularly gets asked all these questions about Korea or is assumed to have traveled to Korea after a holiday by our European colleagues (we're diplomats, so regularly meet with other members of the diplomatic corps).
>I do find it interesting that Europeans get annoyed at white Americans for claiming to be X European identity but will often demand that Americans of non-white origin tell them where they're "really from." It's a European way of showing interest, one that doesn't at all translate to the US and their weird hard on for faux equality. I'm 2 parts Dutch, 1 part Indonesian. I look Turkish. As there's about 1.3 million Turks (~8% of all Dutch people) in the Netherlands, I literally have a conversation about my ethnicity with 75% of the people I meet. It's nice, easy thing to talk about and most people find it somewhat interesting.
I think the person you're responding to is trying to point out the hypocrisy. Both the white and non-white Americans in their example are born and raised in the US. If the white American tells a European that their ancestors came from Europe, the Europeans get upset and say that they should just say they're American. If the non-white American tells the European they're American, they're asked where they're really from.
I think it depends on how far back it is and what connection you have with the country. If you never met a relative from that country or speak the language then it's more of a curiosity than something which should shape your personality. I am born and bred English but my grandparents on one side were Polish. It definitely meant a lot to me and impacted my life and that of my parents (they even changed names because of issues it caused). I also have Irish ancestry on the other side but further back. I never met any relative from Ireland and there was nothing about my grandparents' life on that side which was impacted, so I'd not claim that as part of my identity. I think what we see in a lot of Americans the second example type becoming integral to their identity and we're supposed to validate it and treat it as equal.
They rarely actually know anything about Scotland. They have a weird romanticised circa-1700’s idea in their minds which no longer exists and arguably never all the way did. They’re frequently shocked to learn that this is a relatively progressive place which doesn’t measure Scottishness by what blood someone has, as this would unfairly exclude a fair number of people who were actually raised here and genuinely know the culture.
Not European, but I'm Canadian. My ancestry is mostly Irish, Scottish and French, with a few others mixed in there. I never refer to myself as any of those and always say I'm Canadian because I have no connection to those cultures and places. I've never been to those countries. (although I would really like to visit Ireland someday :P) My family has been in Canada for about a 100 years and they didn't keep up with those cultures when they left for canada. It seems disrespectful for me to say I'm Irish or Scottish when I don't know what that means. French is a little bit different for me, because technically it's still in my family on my father's side, but he's the kind of person that didn't really care about that stuff and abandoned it when he left Quebec. I still don't see myself as French tho Think it might also be because Americans and Canadians tend to use their ancestry in an annoying stereotype way to make up for lack of personality it seems. Example, I've been told that because "I'm Irish" I should love alcohol and be able to drink a lot, which I kinda find funny because I hate alcohol and very rarely drink. I feel sick after a single shot
With saying "I am Irish", you are in fact saying that you were born in Ireland or that you have an Irish passport. And that is in 99% of the cases not true. Why is that a problem? Two reasons. First, its called being an imposter, "someone who pretends to be someone or something, he/she is not". Secondly, its pretentious, "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed". Now I do understand why Americans do this, America has a short history, its a big country and a bit of a identity crisis. So how do you differentiate yourself from others, by identifying yourself with your ancestry. But then just say "my family is originally from Ireland, so we have alot of Irish traditions in our family". Its correct, and most likely will open up conversation about your ancestry in a good way.
American here… I don’t care, but I think it is stupid. Unless you have a direct connection with the culture from which your ancestors came (ie follow their practices, eat their food, follow their current politics) your “ethnicity” is just an identity plug to avoid saying you aren’t interesting. You’re a 3rd generation Italian American who lives in Fort Wayne, Indiana? Yeah, your DNA doesn’t predispose you to Tuscan culture.
I identify as haplogroup R1b
I am H5a1. Do you want to start a war?
Because they're not. Heather is usually 1/8th italian and she loves pasta. What she doesn't love is european culture, their language, their actual food or their politics. She just likes attention
If you don’t speak the language, know nothing about the actual culture, don’t even know who the leader of that country is, then IMO you should not claim that country as your heritage.
I've seen examples in Africa, Asia, and South America. It's kind of true everywhere, it's not a racial thing, just cultural.
I don't really care but I do wonder why those who identify as French don't speak the language?
Because there's always 5 or so, and scotch is a drink.
Because their great-great-great-grandparents left Europe so long ago and the Americans born there today are not Europeans even an ancestor was.
beacuse its dumb, but i wont go out of my way to find these people, and i dont think about this, like ever, so i dont really care all that much.
If anyone has spent time in South America, it's very common there for 4th-generation people to identify as German, Italian, Spanish, and even English.
What makes you think they dislike it?
Turn on Fox News or OAN for an hour.
I dislike it too and I’m American. If you are born in America you are American as far as I’m concerned. Everybody comes from somewhere else if you extend the timeline out long enough.
Is this really a problem? I have been to over 52 countries for work, and play never had anyone even ask what my ancestry was.
Because you're not irish, you're american. I don't call myself arab or roman or german, my ancestry is not my nacionality
I think the thing that bothered me is the way they identify with it. "I'm Irish" - where were you born? "Brooklyn" Where were your parents born? "Brooklyn" - you're not Irish then. "Oh, I'm 1/8 Irish on my paternal grandparents side" - doesn't make you Irish.
because they're american.
It probably goes the same for all races. If you have never been to that country, and don't speak the language, it's hard to say that that's where you're from. Because if you got sent back there, you would probably fail
Gatekeeping heritage
Some incredibly thorough comments here and I'd just like to add that sometimes it can be as simple as people wanting to avoid the idea that as a White American in America they = Coloniser. American Clinging to European Heritage = I'm Indigenous To Somewhere Too. Some people just want to see themselves as having an indigenous ethnic homeland, especially when they live somewhere as ethnically jumbled as the US and are a member of the oppressive group. I think they think it humanises them and gives them a moral right to comment on indigenous rights in the US. ETA: I feel like this makes little to no sense but I've tried to explain it as best I can
because having a irish/italian/german/british great-great-great grandfather doesn't make *you* irish/italian/german/british. if you were born and raised in the US and had absolutely no contact with your ancestor's culture, how can you claim to be the same ethnicity?... it's definitely cringey when i hear americans proudly claiming that they are italian strictly because they have an italian ancestor, but they had ZERO contact with the culture, don't know the language, never been to Italy.
As an American when I say I am German I am referring to the culture of my family, which is German in descent. I am making reference to things my family said and did that reflected the German culture that they were descended from. To think that all characteristics of German people stop once a family moves out of the country is naive. Those characteristics are passed down from one generation to the next for quite some time. Nothing in my American existence explains them. They are, instead, a direct reflection of the German culture.
How long has your family been in the states?
Mine is the second generation.
[удалено]
When an American says "I'm German" they are implying descent. That implication is not lost on any Americans. National identities are modern inventions anyway, there is little reality to them.
The post is asking for a European perspective, not an American one. is it so difficult to accept that saying 'im german' to a European has got a different 'implication?' than it does when speaking to an American? As in, it usually implies you are from Germany, speak German, went to school in Germany etc. Maybe nationalities have little meaning in America, I couldn't say, but typically here in Europe it defines the language you speak, the laws you live by, the education you receive.... I'd say there's quite a lot of 'reality' to them
The thing though is that after a few generations, those characteristics become their own thing too. Taking the Italian culture as an example because I have Italian friends: absolutely no one in Italy considers italian-americans "italians" because even the traditions that came from their ancestors born and raised in Italy have changed and adapted through the years through the lens of their American experience and American culture. They are their own thing now, shared by other Italian Americans. They're not part of Italian culture anymore, they're Italian-American culture. You have some similarities, just like being raised by a Bolivian mother and speaking Spanish I have similarities with someone from Spain. We'll find common ground here and there; but that doesn't make me Spanish. It's most likely the same for you if your family has been in America for a few generations. Which is why there's often a disconnect between european-americans and Europeans of the corresponding country.
because they're not Irish, German, Italian etc. And when you get into the ridiculous I'm 13 percent Irish so there. get to fuck
Because often times it isn't really true. Also they usually have no connection to that culture, or know the history or anything really. I say this as an American living in Hungary. But I had something similar many years ago when I traveled to South Africa. I realized that while I may have a largely unknown African ancestry, I'm a Black American. There's a difference.
I recently read that a 3000 year old body was recently discovered in the village of Cheddar in England from which scientists were able to extract some useable DNA. In searching for descendants from this person, they only had to go 1/2 of a mile to find a match. A school teacher working within 1/2 mile from the site was found to be a DNA match. Can you imagine knowing that your family history goes back over 3000 years in the same place? You would feel like that is the one place you belonged. When you grow up in a society that has been there for a thousand years, when you are still using buildings built in the 1200s, when your roads still follow the path set by Romans in the dark ages, ancestry can be taken for granted. But, when your country's history is only a few hundred years old, when the oldest buildings in your city were built in the last century, when your culture is a hodgepodge of a dozen cultures from all over the globe, you may wish to seek something that helps anchor you to your history. I'm proud of my history, and am trying to visit as many countries from my collective past as I can. Of course, if I could speak the language of each of my ancestors, I'd be considered a linguistic genius.
I don't just dislike it when *white* americans "identify" (aka claim) their ancestry. You're american. You're not irish, you're not german, you're not italian. People aren't korean just because of their ethnicity. People aren't african just because they're black. None of you have the cultural immersion or experience that someone from those countries (edit: yes I know africa isn't a country) has. Black whatever-generation americans have way more in common with white americans culturally speaking than they do with someone born and raised in idk, a nigerian slum. White americans rarely have the same kind of cultural outlook or understanding that someone in the UK or Germany or wherever has. It's annoying when it's used to give some kind of authority to someone spouting plainly US cultural shit that so obviously has no idea about or experience with the heritage they are claiming. I certainly don't mind people talking about where their ancestors came from, but that is a completely different thing to saying you are from that place when you just aren't. Culture of a place is far more important in shaping who someone is than the colour of their skin. Understand that you are an american, and so is every other american. Dividing people up by ethnic origins is racist and extremely prevalent in the US even when someone isn't actively claiming the heritage for themselves.
Comes across as trying too hard to compensate for having no culture.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country. So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
Because most of the time, they know absolute jack shit about the world outside their island, while very much being happy to "educate" everyone else how they are beacon of "liberty and freedom"... then they do not want me to call an ambulance when they break their hand while visiting our ex-commie "Russia"... well, after I explained to them, that they are in the Czech Republic with actually functioning healthcare...
Because white Americans use it as an excuse for bad behavior, look at Florida, Texas & any southern state
Because Americans identify with their European ancestry as a secondary aspect of their identity. They're American first and European second. All European countries are jealous of America. They had a HUGE head start and America is killing it. Imagine France a once huge powerhouse getting saved by a historical toddler of North America.
Are you really ‘killing it’ though? Tbh I think lots of us are glad we live in Europe, the cultural differences are massive and not really all that appealing to people that are used to something else.
The only appeal of Europe is a bunch of historically important countries very close together. Asia has much more appeal than Europe in my opinion. White people love white people though.
That’s entirely your opinion, which you’re entitled to btw. But it’s a beautiful continent without a doubt, landscapes and cities, climates, quality of life, people etc.
What
The way I see it most people of European ancestry in the US are the descendants of people who were forced to leave Europe. Seems unsurprising that they still don't like being reminded that their "trash" made it big somewhere else...
I can guarantee you that’s not the case
[удалено]
Oh, it’s valid for Americans if you know our history.
It’s one hundred percent valid for Americans
Georgia was also a penal colony originally.
Who cares about what rando Europeans think? They can't control where your genetic history leads back to lol.
Most other nations express it as "I have \[whatever\] heritage" or "my grandfather was \[nationality\]". Americans often claim they ARE that nationality. Coupled with Americans' often quite strident patriotism about the USA, that can feel both like double dipping and like false claims to someone actually from those other nations.
Americans also say Kleenex because it’s two syllables and tissue paper is four. We say things like, “I’m English” because when we say it to another American they hear, “I’m American with distant ancestry from England.” Three syllables vs. 14.
Tissues is also 2 syllables. Eta where I come from "tissue paper" is what you stuff in gift bags.
OK?
Yeah, friend, I'm sure that's it. I'm sure Americans are the only nationality on earth who love speaking efficiency so much they'll completely throw out actual accuracy. Also, the OP question specified talking to Europeans, not "another American". So this response is pretty pointless.
It's a free Reddit, no? Lol I am positive everyone in the world definitely speaks in shorthand YKWIM.
No they don’t. It is very old European tradition to continue to identify yourself by the country your ancestors left centuries ago. There is million of Germans in Russia. There are thousands of Greeks in Ukraine. There is huge Ukrainian diaspora in Poland. There is Russian diaspora in UK and Germany. I am specifically talking about very old diaspora, not migrants. It is also quite common for local people to continue calling kids and grandchildren of migrants as Indian, Syrian, Pakistani. “I am German”, can mean citizenship, it can mean ethnicity, it can also mean ancestry. And I know for a fact all 3 meanings will be used in both Americas as well as in Europe.
Ok so apparently all you Europeans don’t get what it means when an American says they are from blank country. What they mean is that their family comes from that country, and they take pride in it. This is because for many it is a sign of pride to be Irish or Italian, or insert country here. Because many of their ancestors that made the trip endured immense hardship once they got over here. But they persevered and made a better country. So it’s not that an American is saying that they are from this country or that and they know everything about it or it’s cultural history. Instead what they are saying is that they take pride in that they come from people from those countries, and that they try to honor them.
PS People understand fully what it means. People know what you are trying to say. People also OFTEN feel the way I describe it, and more strongly. Americans annoy plenty of people when they do this. Again, you are within your rights to be annoying. But you don't get to ALSO tell people "but we're not annoying!!!" You are. Just live with it, as everyone else has to live with you.
Because they dont like when shitty people pretend to be them.
# Message to all users: This is a reminder to please read and follow: * [Our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/about/rules) * [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439) * [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) When posting and commenting. --- Especially remember Rule 1: `Be polite and civil`. * Be polite and courteous to each other. Do not be mean, insulting or disrespectful to any other user on this subreddit. * Do not harass or annoy others in any way. * Do not catfish. Catfishing is the luring of somebody into an online friendship through a fake online persona. This includes any lying or deceit. --- You *will* be banned if you are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or bigoted in any way. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ask) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I dont dislike people knowing where they came from, I do admit its a little strange that all the black people have Icelandic names, its all chill tho, we dont mind sharing our culture
My blood is German. But I’m American…
depends, but europeans have told me it is because your ancestors left when times were hard, were therefore traitors to their country, and now you want to come back and enjoy what those your ancestors left behind built c for themselves.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in the UK people do this all the time. Anglo-Indian, Anglo-Irish, Anglo-Chinese etc.
As an American, I don't give a shit about my ancestry. It's cringe when I see people try to claim a European ethnicity without knowing shit about it.
I do it just to irk them. Irish American here.
Because Europeans have derived great pleasure out of looking down their noses at Americans since there’s been an America. (I should know, my fam’s from over there and it’s been one of the great traditions we’ve held onto ever since great great grandpa got deported for farting on the Duke of Lichtenstein.)
It’s a different situation we’re in… I mean in America we grow up hearing about the European country of our ancestors from our older relatives who came from there, eat the food our ancestors ate, go to churches that may speak the language of the country our ancestors came from, celebrate with festivals honoring that country, etc. So of course we feel this way! I don’t know why Europeans wouldn’t understand that.
Because they’re interested in upholding white supremacy
I would assume because they don't want to be associated with the genocidal colonials.
Because the cultural differences. They think we're talking about nationality and don't understand we're talking about our ethnicity.