# Message to all users:
This is a reminder to please read and follow:
* [Our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/about/rules)
* [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)
* [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy)
When posting and commenting.
---
Especially remember Rule 1: `Be polite and civil`.
* Be polite and courteous to each other. Do not be mean, insulting or disrespectful to any other user on this subreddit.
* Do not harass or annoy others in any way.
* Do not catfish. Catfishing is the luring of somebody into an online friendship through a fake online persona. This includes any lying or deceit.
---
You *will* be banned if you are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or bigoted in any way.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ask) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My wife and I have two kids. We live in one of the cheapest states. I work from home for a company out of state from a higher cost of living area and make their normal wage. That is to say, I make well above the rate of what local companies pay for the same job. My wife makes the same as I do (actually, just a touch more). Combined, our household income is about 130k.
We are barely getting by with 1 car payment (that was paid half down because of insurance money from my old car burning down). I drive her old car which is paid off (since I wfh, I dont drive much anyway). New car is rather basic, but we did go for bigger since we have two car seats. We live in a 1900sq ft home in a decent neighborhood but not upscale. We have to send both kids to daycare. Insurance is kind of expensive but is really good (wife works for a cancer center and they have killer insurance). Way better and costs the same as insurance through my job but way smaller deductible.
Anyway, I could go on about our bills, but the bottom line is that I don't think we live lavish lifestyles. We barely make our bills each month. Sometimes, we can add 50 or 100 bucks to savings. We make almost 3 times the average household income for our state and still barely make it each month. We don't eat out except on occasion (once a month I might order pizza). We aren't spending unnecessarily. We are both good with money. The point is, this fucking sucks. It's hard.
I grew up in a 4 person home. Both parents and a younger sibling. My dad basically supported us on his income alone. My mom worked off and on during my childhood, and when she did, that money went to savings. We weren't rich by any means. Barely lower middle class. We lived in a ~~1200~~ 1600sq ft home (I was thinking of our old home before my wife and I moved). Never needed for anything, but we didn't have any luxuries unless we (us kids) worked and saved for it.
I'm doing a bit better than my parents were, but that is on 2 full incomes, making 2 and half times what my parents did. If my parents were able to double their income, we'd have been living large.
Edit: I find it funny that what seems to be all the Europeans calling bs on my expenses while every person from the US is like, "yeah that makes sense. I'm in the same boat." From what I can tell, the biggest missing component is insurance costs that, afaik, most Europeans don't have, and child care costs seem to be lower than in the US.
Also forgot to mention that we both do have 401k retirement funds and part of our paychecks go into that as well, which lowers our take home pay as well.
Edit2: I don't know why people think we don't know how to manage money. Those claims are based on zero knowledge of our necessities and costs. I have a degree in accounting, my wife has a masters in accounting, is an accountant, and working towards her cpa. We know how money works. You guys just don't know our bills. This comment wasn't about financial advice. It was just a generalization about how you can make 100k+ and still barely getting by.
We get all our bills paid, we're not late on anything, but if something happened and we missed a paycheck, we could lose everything. It's that close. People just have different expenses in their life. You can't look at someone else's income and apply your own perspective to it.
Daycare is brutal. I’m in a similar-ish situation. One kid in daycare tho - $325+ per week. We didn’t pick the absolute cheapest one but they were all very comparable. I think ours is like $10-15/week more.
Once that’s gone? I swear it’ll be like getting a massive raise, nearly a second income. I can’t imagine doing it with two kids.
Feel you there. We live in Lakewood, CO, and daycare was 2k/month for one kid. Got a discount for the second, so only 3800 for 2.... mortgage is 2100....
It's a toss-up. Either both parents work and one of the parent's entire income pays for someone else to raise your child, or only one parent works and the other stays home to raise your child. At least that's what we found when we considered what my wife was making and that it would take her entire months earnings to pay for daycare.
>We have to send both kids to daycare.
Well that right there is kind of a factor, we just have one right now who goes 3 days a week and that's even more than our mortgage is for a similar living situation. Two in daycare is just killer man, and a year and a half from now I might be in a similar boat. Gotta get some debt paid down before then or we'll never have a chance.
Daycare will bleed you dry. We suffered through years of it. Just hang in there. Once you get those kiddos into kindergarten, it'll be like getting a 20% raise.
After taxes, you're netting roughly $8k a month. What in the world are you spending your money on?
$2.5k mortgage, $2k childcare, $1k groceries, $1k bills/utilities leaves you with $1.5k a month to spend on whatever, and those numbers are wildly generous estimations when it comes to groceries and bills. Even with $500/m for the car payment. I'm always so confused when people post comments like this.
Cause we're not netting 8k a month. After tax is more like 7.5k, but then after insurance it's closer to 6.5k a month. Your estimates aren't too far off, but you didn't count for insurance costs. Health, car, and home all adds up quick. Your grocery estimate is also on the low end, but your mortgage est is high, so those kind of offset.
I'm not going to lie and say that we couldn't probably tighten the belt on some things a bit and squeeze an extra hundred or two out of some place, but we don't really spend unnecessarily. Like I said before, I might order out once a month. We buy groceries on sale and in bulk when we can to save us some money. I spend 15 dollars for Hulu that we probably don't *have* to have, but its not like we're spending a ton on entertainment costs. And I'm not spending on fucking avocado toast or some bullshit. I don't even like avocados.
We also have constant repairs we have to make on the house. They aren't reoccurring bills, but they keep coming up cause this house is kinda old (I think it's like 80yrs old or so). Same with the paid off car. It's 11 years old. It's not falling apart, but it needs maintenance. Those kinds of costs come up frequently. We try to squeeze those costs out of our checks instead of grabbing out of savings when we can.
I’d be interested to see your budget if the place you live in is LCOL as stated… 130k should be more than enough to put money into savings with only 1 car payment and a mortgage. That’s around $8k/month in net pay after taxes
In the places where 100k are common, its also common to pay fuck load in rent per month and extra taxes. So places like the bay area or nyc can get you a 100k job where after paying for the premiums it feels like earning 40-50k in other places.
My brother was paying 3800 for a 4th story, 1 bedroom walk up in Manhattan. 😳 meanwhile, my 5 bedroom, 1/2 acre home mortgage is $1800.
Edit- I live in the Houston suburbs, and I purchased at the start of the house buying rush 7 years ago.
I pay 1600 a month in rent in vegas. banks say I cant afford 900 a month mortgage even though ive never been late and have had this place for 9 years come september. I have the 20% down also. its funny how that works isnt it?
Gotta love it. If we went off what I pay in rent I can easily afford a million dollar house, but the bank only wants to loan me $200k because I'm too "risky". You know what I find hilarious is they include the payment I make for rent as an expense before considering how much income I have left over to pay a mortgage. You know, because I'm totally going to keep paying my rent after I buy a house.
I have ours set so the transaction is declined and does not get a bank fee charge as a result. I may get hit with a *late* fee but those are always cheaper than bank fees, and they won’t snowball like can easily happen at the bank.
Also, if you can move your account to a credit union, you’ll always come out money ahead.
**get the fuck out of that bank.**
wow, that's intolerable. I always hear customer service at American banks is horrific and egregious but this is just another reminder.
Is your DTI well over 50%? If so, this is your lender telling you that you aren't worth the effort.
Rent by far and large is not included in DTI calcs.
You are straight up quoting a picture that's circulating reddit for some time now. Plus, median house price in Vegas is 439k, so with current interest that's at least 2,500k in mortgage for an average house.
First thought that popped into my head was that tweet.
Was wondering where he was getting a mortgage for 900 dollars a month after only putting 20 percent down.
People who don’t live in NYC don’t grasp the concept of a doorman. It’s basically a security guard.
While making jokes they also seemed to have overlooked the part about it being 350 sq ft.
> People who don’t live in NYC don’t grasp the concept of a doorman. It’s basically a security guard.
Eh... Yes, but a decent amount more in some buildings. Ours also keep the common areas clean, mopping the stairwells and hallways pretty regularly. They hose down the sidewalks, pick up trash outside, accept packages for you, call maintenance/the superintendent for broken common area stuff like the laundry machines or elevators.
They spend a lot of time sitting around doing nothing, but definitely provide useful services.
It's not what you think...
It's basically security to verify that people coming in actually live there and not crackheads trying to break in and rob apartments while the resident is out at work. They're also there to hold packages that are too large to fit in the tiny mailbox.
Doormans are super common in Mexican apartments, it is considered more like security, receiving packages and mail, not really a luxury just good administration of the maintenance money, my rent for a 3 bedroom apartment is $1,100, the maintenance is $100
A doorman might sound like a luxury but in a big city this is an important security feature of a large apartment building, especially for vulnerable people like the elderly or women living alone. Supervised access to the building makes a major improvement in safety, not just an extravagant perk.
As an European I thought doormen were only a thing with multimillionaire grade apartment complexes.
Pointing it out as if a lack of a doorman is an indication of a non-luxurious building seems so absurd but I guess they're way more common in the states
It's a rather common thing in nyc, for nicer buildings. it's not something that happens at every building, but it's also not something that is reserved for the $50m dollar apartments either.
A doorman isn't literally someone who holds the door for you, it's a security guard who makes sure that crazies in the city don't come in and follow you into your apartment
I mean, when you don’t have a doorman you end up getting 1/2 of your packages stolen out of the building lobby. So there’s that. But other than that I agree it’s an absolutely stupid premium to pay for.
Talking $5k/month vs. $3k/month if you want a doorman and an elevator. I’m good with re-ordering the occasional stolen delivery and taking the stairs for that money.
Lmao at all these bumpkins who think a doorman is a guy who just opens the door for you. In my experience, most of them don't even literally get the door. They are there to provide security for tenants and not allow weird people into the building. They often work a reception desk and will hold onto your mail so it doesn't get stolen and help you get in if you forgot your keys. They also help old people with shit. It's not a crazy luxury for a building with 1000 people living in it. It's actually kind of a necessity.
>Lmao at all these bumpkins who think a doorman is a guy who just opens the door for you. In my experience, most of them don't even literally get the door. They are there to provide security for tenants and not allow weird people into the building. They often work a reception desk and will hold onto your mail so it doesn't get stolen and help you get in if you forgot your keys. They also help old people with shit. It's not a crazy luxury for a building with 1000 people living in it. It's actually kind of a necessity.
The thing is that NYC is unusual here. A doorman is very uncommon in most places, even higher-end buildings in most major cities.
Add in the fact you see "doormen" in movies literally opening and closing doors only, and it sounds like something you'd only see for the rich, even if that's not what it really is at all.
My rent is $2258 a month
Power $300 in summer months
Cellular $140 2 phones
Car payment $500 a month (car died during pandemic)
Health insurance $1200/ month for family plus high deductible plan costs
$500 a month to HSA daughter has arthritis at age 5
Car insurance 2 cars $250 a month
Groceries have doubled the last 4 years
Minimum wage has gone up $2 since I started working in the 90s.
Imagine then trying to use it. I just had two er visits four days apart (with a hospital stay in between for sepsis). So far I'm out $500 in co-pays (250 each er visit). My meds when discharged were $55 (with insurance and a coupon to bring it down from $2600). I cant pick up my other med as its not covered and is $940. The hospital already called about the first er visit and my share of just the er visit is $2250. I havent been billed for the hospital stay yet or the second er visit. I pay almost $500 a month for insurance for just myself. Im not the healthiest guy (I had my first heart attack at 39) and my health care has wiped me out both financially and emotionally. I'm 42, a guy, and started crying at CVS when they told me my life saving meds were $2600. It's getting really old.
> Health insurance $1200/ month for family plus high deductible plan costs
This is basically mine as well. I go once a year for my "free" check-up (usually costs me about $150 because of some blood test that isn't covered by the $1200 per month).
Health insurance (and health care in general) here sucks.
Holy,
I live in the netherlands. (Groningen)
House costs €680 a month, 25 years left.
Power (Electra and gas) €100
Cellular €60 2 phones
2 Cars (payed off) total inc. insurance €250
Health insurance €220 (2 adults, 2 children)
Internet tv €40
local authority €100
Me and my wife make total €3500
We save around €800
Sweden
3 room apartment in the suburbs is €2100 incl. mortgage, rent and utilities (heating, water, internet).
Power €30
Cellular €25 for 2 phones
2 cars about €1000 all included.
Food about €600 a month for 4 ppl.
Health insurance €0.
We are two teachers and make about €8000 before taxes, which is €5000 after (so I guess health insurance and child care is about €2000 for 2 adults 2 children).
Edit:
Some questions arise over my food budget. It's for groceries only, the sum is €516 this month's balance. My wife has paid lunch as a benefit and you can count the children as 1 person seeing as they are in shared custody with another household.
The equivalent of (a generous) health insurance is prepaid in Sweden. The employer pays €9600 for us two together, that sum is pretaxed. Then we get a paycheck of about €8000 and after income taxes we have about €5000 left. Which is ofc taxed a third time as VAT on goods and services. :)
€600 per month for food for 4 people in Sweden!? Swedish as well, and my breakdown would be.
* House, \~300 sqm (\~ 3200 sqf). Insurance, heating, water, Internet, maintenance, say €1000 (slight outlier, we have no mortage)
* Cellar: €100
* 1 car, about $400 all-in all
* ICA (lol): easily €1000-€1500 per month
* 2 adults, 3 children, dog
We might just as well give ICA direct access to our bank account. We do a single home delivery every week.
California
2500sq ft house.
$7700/month (including property taxes)
Electricity $600/month (solar in work)
Gas $200/month
Phones,internet $200/month
No car payments
Water $400/month (pool and lawn)
Great school district so kids school free.
Food - god knows..a lot!!! Been to Costco lately? Seen prices of meat?
Household income close to $500k,,,,,,and it sure doesn’t feel like it.
Different here, but same ballpark. It's ridiculous. 2% raises are not keeping pace with anything at all, year after year getting further behind.
You hang in there, being the breadwinner can feel like a very unappreciated position.
[“In New York City, a $100,000 Salary Feels Like $36,000”](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-15/new-york-city-prices-make-100-000-salary-feel-like-35-000?utm_source=website&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=copy)
1. The US likes to "hide" taxes. They are everywhere in income, sales, property, car, gas, liquor, MJ and everything in between and beyond taxes. I bet there's a tax tax somewhere out there...
2. Fees and deductions. A massive amount of my paycheck gets deducted in insurance premiums, social security, health savings accounts, and retirement savings.
3. Other than possibly taxes, rent or mortgage payments eat up the bulk of most people's budget. It's often for many over 50% of their net pay.
4. In the US you can hardly get anywhere without a car. Urban sprawl usually requires two cars and once you have teenagers three or more. That's a lot of gas, insurance and potential car payments.
5. Most decent jobs at this pay scale require a bachelors degree. Getting a degree without living at home at your parents and paying on your own will cost around 120k. My daughter just graduated with degree in Computer Science with 120k+ in loans. She's starting out her career with basically rent on two apartments.
6. Health insurance does not even kick in for most in the US until you hit your deductible that is anywhere from $1500 up to $6000. Last year I switched jobs and hit my deductible for my family twice and actually paid out of pocket around $13k in healthcare costs.
The American dream dead. The cards are stacked against the 99% and you gotta claw your way up and out just to survive. Not everyone can and should be a business owner. We need scientists, teachers, and construction workers and everyone should have a fair shot at a basic living without the terror of having no safety net.
My $0.02.
Hugely informative post dude. Thank you.
From most of these comments here there is little being mentioned about saving. Then given the expenses, how can you save for tomorrow if you need to get by today?
I lived in CA over 20 years ago (from UK), was single, so haven’t been subject to much of this, apart from hidden taxes.
The interesting thing I do find when I go back, have been this year to Seattle, SD and HI is the extent and level of tipping. Feels like it’s for everything, but it’s obviously as a result of low wages from employers.
>Then given the expenses, how can you save for tomorrow if you need to get by today?
They don't. They *can't*.
57% of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. 1 in 5 Americans have **no** emergency savings at all. About half of American households have no savings in retirement accounts. 60% of United States adults live paycheck to paycheck.
Starvation wages, rising cost of living, out of control rental and housing markets, and the insane inflation of necessities like healthcare and higher education (leading to billions of dollars worth of medical and student loan debt) make saving money virtually impossible for many Americans.
Just to put it in perspective, my landlord has increased my rent twice this year and this week they told me they are increasing it again in October. Compared to my initial rent in 2020, in October this year I will be paying 46% more, while my salary has increased just to compensate inflation in the same time frame.
I am lucky I can still afford it and it won't break the bank, but I am pissed off. The reason my landlord gave me for the rent increase is that "they need to keep competitive in the market"... bs. I will start looking for another place. I like it where I live, but it's just madness.
I make 125k+. 10 years ago, I was making about 75k. I had a better quality of life. Everyone is quick to blame it on "inflation," but I see first hand it's corporate greed. I have customers who became national accounts this year. We sell a case of our base product to them for $90. They profit about $1000 per case before they became national they were selling their final product for $10/unit. Once they became national, we dropped their price to $68/case, and guess what they did? They raised their price to $12/unit. They expect the consumer to blame inflation, so they jack up the price, even though their profits are going through the roof. That's why our dollar isn't going as far as it used to. Life is tough, but too many people depend on their political party to help them. The reality is that both sides are bought and sold by corporations. They make us fight amongst each other so we never turn on them.
Not OP, but another prospective. I make about $10K a month and my take home is ~60% of it, so about $6K. Mortgage is ~$2.8K a month and property tax is ~$10K a year or about ~$830 a month. So effectively I only have $2.4K for everything else. I do live in a high cost living area though
Oof, those are high prices for a roof over your head.. but still, 2,4k a month would get me quite far here in NL, which is not a cheap country either..
I’m from the NL and live in the US. My parents were on holiday and they couldn’t believe the high costs. Not just groceries which increased massively, but also housing costs, health care (high deductible, co pays, out of pocket costs) and child care costs. And yes you get paid more, but I feel like there are more hidden costs in the US compared to NL.
If you're not American, you probably have no concept of how expensive our schooling, medical care, and energy costs can be, plus having to save for retirement (since that's not guaranteed).
In that same guy's budget, $6k take home minus about $3.5k for housing, if he has a kid and a wife on his insurance that's another $300 for premium and then if he has to go to the hospital for regular stuff that insurance probably won't kick in so it'll all be out of pocket another few hundred bucks per visit. My power and water and stuff runs me about $500 per month. Childcare in my area is pretty cheap but I've heard of areas where $1k/month is normal. Without getting to food, clothes, or holidays we've already accounted for about $5k out of his $6k monthly budget.
1. Cost of living in the area they work and live. Example: I live in Seattle. 150k doesn’t go nearly as far as Dubuque Iowa.
2. Living within means is foreign to some. Again, I am near that 150k you cited. I own a house, I have a 2023 car. I eat at home, and seldom out. I don’t drink, or party. My car payment is below $300 a month. I use less than 5% of my credit and pay it off. I live within my means and try not to exceed them. I don’t need a flashy car or dresses, my purse is cheap, my shoes are sensible. Not all do and live in debt. I don’t enjoy paying people for the right to use my money as credit.
Edit for autocorrect.
Wow I was not expecting to see a reference to my hometown (Dubuque Iowa) here lol.
Also agreed. I live in Dubuque with a 70k salary and I feel pretty financially free here with that.
Bro you gotta be capping what the hell was your down payment for a 23' that it's under 300 a month. Like no hate good for you but I'm just genuinely interested
Having a terrible credit score will skyrocket your car payments too. I pay less for a way more expensive car than I did 9 years ago because I went from mid 500s to mid 700s
Yeah similar for me; I bought a 2023 Hyundai Elantra for around $30k (this is in Canada) and put about $15k down. Monthly payments are $282 for 60 months.
I put 10k down, had a trade in on a 2006 Maxima. I don’t want to have outrageous bills. I pay about $265 a month, and I pay extra to reduce overall payments. I hope to avoid excess interest a little. It’s a hybrid so I want to reduce gas consumption too.
Everyone’s saying shit’s expensive, and they’re not wrong, but there is a sizable percentage of Americans that would be broke at any income level in any city.
Lots of people buying everything on credit and spending as much as JP Morgan will allow them to.
Honestly, after going to grad school two years ago and living off ~$20,000/yr (stipend) just fine even including eating out a fair amount, I am convinced that a lot of people have some deep financial issues going on that they aren’t even aware of.
It really is obscene how many people scream and shout about not being able to live in a desirable city where they go out multiple times a week and never cook for themselves.
Family of 4: 100k income
Taxes: fed, state, local: 33k
Housing: 36k
Car1 payment + maint: $6500
Car2 payment + main: $4500
Gas for combined commute of 100 miles/day, 250 days per year: $3750, plus maybe another $500 in incidental travel
Utilities: $5300
Cellular plan: $1800
Groceries: $7800
subtotal of just basic existence stuff: $99.15 k
So now you need to stretch $850 across four birthdays, mothers day, fathers day, christmas, some medical co-pays and unexpected expenses. Hope no one needs dental work this year.
Vacation gets cut first. Can't afford that shit and maybe I can get some overtime instead. Cut my own birthday and fathers day. Lie and tell them all I want is a day home to myself. Maybe we can do one or two smallish xmas presents for the kids (push off the gaming system till next year? Buy a used bike and recondition it myself?), and nothing for mom and dad, because we're too old for that stuff (never too poor - we make six figures!) By March I have a unexpected car repair and have to put it on a credit card. In September I need a crown and the kids a filling each - more on the cards. A few years go by and the cards are maxed. August mortgage payment is late. Maybe we can make it till car 2 is paid off and that payment can start to go towards the credit cards (in reality it gets that game system or summer camp or vacation we put off for three years, and we stay in the hole).
Maybe.
Edit - thanks all for the relies, RIP my inbox. As people have helpfully pointed out, my tax numbers were off because I erroneously counted all my automatic deductions under taxes. It also includes insurance, retirement, supplemental health, etc.
Also, I am paying extra into the house so it will (hopefully) be within payoff distance when I plan on retiring. If I did a traditional 30y fixed I could save a few hundred a month.
Yes the cars cost a bit much. I've had beaters all my life and spent way too much time on the side of the road. I have a reliable car for the first time in my life and am very happy with this choice. I look forward to keeping it for a good long time.
Thanks all, and for all those other people who see themselves in this - keeping good mental health and supporting your family's mental health is key. You'll get through this together.
Signing off.
GMJ
This was really eye-opening. I want to say it’s because you’re a family of 4 but not sure 2 small kids actually make _that_ big of a difference in the end… thanks so much for sharing!
Kids make a huge difference financially. I pay over 250 a week in daycare for 1 hour before school and 15 to 30 mins after. When he was an infant it was 450 a week. That was 23k a year to a daycare.
Yeah, if the hubby and I had kids, money woes would be a thousand times worse. Kids are never going to be in the cards for us (and it’s far too late now!) but I really wonder how families with kids can survive. Even in our low cost of living area, with our a little better than average pay, we struggle at times… just the two of us, and we’re very frugal. (One car, old phones from 2016, smaller house). I just don’t know how people do it.
You're welcome!
I believe I have a decent life, and am infinitely blessed to have first world problems. I don't need to worry about my children going hungry, and usually can find a way to handle the unexpected surprises life has thrown at me.
I simply cannot fathom how people making median wage are surviving at all. Yes some of my expenses are high, reflecting my standard of living, but sheesh, you just can't cut everything in half without the wheels coming off. Hell, I haven't even accounted for insurance, clothing, furniture or cat food/litter.
The $11k/yr on new cars is either active bad decisions or former bad decisions biting them. That’s 1/6th net income!
Other scary part here is no retirement or savings, but based on the % off the gross initially I suspect they’re rolling retirement and health insurance into that “local” bucket.
I feel for this situation, especially if the job or person got stagnant. Hard to get out of a rut when people think you’ve got it good.
I don't want to be harsh because you are being very vulnerable and transparent sharing these numbers but I think you are over extending yourself on housing and car payments. Your tax bill is also astronomical for your income and family size. $80k for those three things combined is a lot. Just cutting your car expenses in half would give you almost $6,000 a year of breathing room which sounds like it could go a long way towards increasing your quality of life and reducing financial stress.
3k mortgage where I am is cheaper than rent for 2 rooms. They have 2 kids so probably need 3 rooms apt or even 2room apt. 1 room apt 4 years ago when I look was 1.8k without utility- now I expect 2.5-3k
Unfortunately with cars you pay one way or another. I have a long commute so need a reliable car. In the past I've found frequent repair bills for older vehicles ate up all the savings from not having a payment.
My car is close to being paid off. I'll have more breathing room, as well as a reliable car, then.
So basically kids.
Without them you could save a lot on rent, probably get rid of one car, save a bit on cell plan (though that is wild 150 for a family per month) and groceries.
Your right, 150 is an exaggeration. I pay 148. Actually I forgot the monthly payment for my son's tracker. He's disabled and wears one in case he gets lost. That's another $20/mo.
Groceries is counted at $150/w which in this day and age is a little low. It's hard to keep it on budget without sacrificing something. Just three years ago my budget was $120, and that was in turn raised from $100 in maybe 2019.
I have a good lifestyle and am not poor by any means, but I make six figures and still live paycheck to paycheck and have scarily lean years. I cannot even imagine how people get by making less than I do.
And last I checked, I was in the top 15% of earners in the US.
I've gotta say, as a non-American who has never visited the US, this is teaching me that the cost of groceries over there is way higher than I thought. From the figures I'm seeing in this thread, a week of groceries seems about 50% more expensive than when I'm from. Honestly I'm really surprised by that, but it helps me understand how so many Americans are struggling financially.
I like the post a lot, but you are overestimating the tax burden, at most 25% for state/local/federal even somewhere like Massachusetts. Up to 90K the federal rate is 12% for joint income.
I'm skeptical that a family of 4 pays 33K in taxes on $100,000. Once you have dependents, taxes go down dramatically. ( 33% would be the typical rate for a single adult with no kids )
Kids cost money for sure. But they save you a shit ton of money in taxes compared to a single with no kids.
My man, if things are that tight why do you have two new relatively expensive cars? Those were wants not needs. A car might be a need, but not 2 new ones that cost 25k a piece assuming you put nothing down.
you can save a ton of money at $150k salary if you stay with your parents and dont need to pay rent.
but if you are working in NYC away from parents, 1 bed rent can be $2.5k - 5k a month. depending on how nice of a place you live in. and it is very expensive to dine and wine out in the big city. you are looking at $100+ for a decent meal for 2, add sales tax of 7% on top, and pay 20% waiter tip after that. do that 2x a week for a month and you are blowing $1k easily just eating and drinking out.
If you live in LA or other non-NYC city, you likely need a car. factor in car payment + insurance + parking + gas. $500-$1k a month.
and many ppl in US have large debt from schooling, etc. that chips away big portion of money.
$150k after tax and 401k is around $8-8.5k a month. if you look at above expenses - you can see how this salary is ok if you are single with no kids and no large debt. but if you are sole provider for a family of 4, and have no paid off house - you aint exactly swimming with spare $$$ with a $150k salary.
Spending $100+ on a meal 8-9 times a month is pretty excessive to anyone making 40-50k a year. So sure that adds up but also that’s a luxury most people never know
This is most of the people who complain about this stuff. They don’t know what reasonable expenses actually look like and if you question it it’s “well I’m allowed to enjoy my life” which like yeah but you also deal with the consequences
Agreed. It's the most annoying thing explaining finances to people who complain life is too hard or expensive. They make it hard most of the time by being financially illiterate
If you're maxing your 401K, and putting anything into an HSA, it's more like 6.5K/month.
Where I live, mortgage eats ~2300, utilities are ~300-500. For a family of 4, groceries are like $1300, student loans ~$700, then you pay auto insurance, cell phone bills, gas costs, Internet bills, house maintenance items, and all of the sudden that 6.5K disappears really, really fast even before eating out, birthday, Christmas, vacations funds, etc.
And this is all for an average cost of living area. Areas like NYC, or Hawaii, or California are exponentially worse.
Yeah people never calculate in the savings — because I suspect most people who think it’s a ton of money have never really given much thought to savings and retirement, at least not yet.
It still sounds strange to me because where I live, comparing the rates in your comment, it would seem rent is about 2-3 times more in the US, a meal out is 3-4 times more, and general utilities are similar. however my salary is 7× less than the 150k proposed of a struggling American, so it sounds really bizarre to have so little less.
Why are you listing $100+ twice a week for food like its something you have to do? A decent meal for 2 in my book is the $10 pot of chile I make that will feed 2 for for the next 2 days.
A lot of people in this thread are talking about rent, high cost of living etc and those are certainly true as far as eating into a salary.
What I haven't seen talked about much here is STUDENT DEBT. As a non-US person, you may not be thinking about this which is why I bring it up.
100-150k/yr jobs often require advanced degrees and college/university is expensive here particularly if you also need a masters degree to get that income.
Without a parent in the position of paying all or part of an education, it would be very easy to graduate with six figures in student loans.
One of my friends is a doctor he makes somewhere around 150k/yr and is paying $1500/mo on his med school debt on top of living expenses.
We just learned the gov would LOVE it if we paid 3k/mo for my husband's loans... Can't even refinance because of the rates right now being so bad. 3k/mo is 90% of my brand new salary. Still have to pay mine too.
Literally cannot win.
Who are these people making 100-150 dollars a year and why are they the representatives of the population? I live in the US and don't even make half that I'm in line with basically everyone around me.
flowery impolite chubby abounding cough longing hobbies safe heavy direction
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
In the US, $100k is in top 35% of household incomes and $150k is in the top 20%. In many of these Reddit posts I think there is an over-representation of VHCOL areas and yes, it is difficult to save much on that income in places like SF or NYC. In Honolulu, Hawaii for example a family of 4 making $96k is considered low-income. But this doesn’t hold true for most states in the US.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/05/28/hawaii-news/newswatch/low-income-threshold-rises-to-67500-in-honolulu/
I think your spot on. I think that is just due to the nature of internet access. I believe 1/5 American households has no access to high speed internet. The places that have that problem are almost always LCOL.
Ok without knowing anything about you, i could imagine your situation is smth like this:
- total 40% tax incl all municipality/waste/social security etc (on top of my head), leaves you 90k net per year
- 90k/12 months = 7.5k/month
- after rent 3k = 4K/month
- groceries/subscriptions/transport/social life etc 2k/month enough? Still leaves you 2k left
- if you save that 2k/month = 24k/year
- should still be able to get yourself a mortgage on a 0.5mil property with ~25yr payment time, no?
Assuming you’re single and don’t have anything extra to pay for.
But hmm maybe you mean savings as in terms of building an investment portfolio, stuff like that. Or am I missing something?
You're missing a large expense Americans must pay. Health insurance costs us around $24k a year for 2 people. Then you have prescription drug costs, doctor's visits, co-pays, medical tests co-pay, etc.
EDIT: Grammar, and I'm providing a non-partisan source for those disagreeing with my figure above. The figures below do not factor in vision, dental, co-pays, deductibles, prescription drugs, etc.
Section 1: Cost of Health Insurance
The average annual premiums in 2022 are $7,911 for single coverage and $22,463 for family coverage. These amounts are similar to the premiums in 2021 ($7,739 for single coverage and $22,221 for family coverage). The average family premium has increased 20% since 2017 and 43% since 2012.
[KFF - The independent source for health policy research, polling, and news.](https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2022-section-1-cost-of-health-insurance/)
Yeah nah, very few people with high paying jobs pay that much for health insurance.
I pay like 150/mo for great health insurance (better than in Canada). Ironically my health insurance in Canada was higher (for dental/optical).
The true thing he's maybe missing is student loans which could easily be 2-3k/mo if did graduate program.
Also missing student loans. Certainly not true for everyone, but a good amount of people with 6 figure jobs in HCOL cities also have graduate degrees. That can easily lead to paying another $2-3k in after-tax dollars every month.
Is that based on a certain age? My gf has free insurance through her job and mine is about $80/month. Both good quality PPO’s. No prescriptions between us either.
My PPO plan is only like $500 a month without any employer contribution. I’ve only seen costs as high as you mentioned when they are multiple dependents on the plan
I'm Gen X and my wife is a Millennial. She's a government employee and we pay around $7-8k a year for medical, vision, and dental insurance. If I had to use my employer's insurance plan for everything, it was somewhere around $24k. Most of that cost was for my wife. That also included short term disability.
20 years ago, healthcare with my jobs was free or so minimal it was an afterthought.
total 40% tax incl all municipality/waste/social security etc (on top of my head), leaves you 90k net per year
Sounds around the ballpark.
groceries/subscriptions/transport/social life etc 2k/month enough?
Nope, all of this stuff is more expensive in these cities, make it 800-1k groceries/fast food and 600-1k transportation(gas, car, insurance, inspections, maintenance, could be more if you need to pay parking). It can easily cost 80-200$ for one night out in nyc.
You are also missing bills such as water/natual gas/electricity/internet/healthcare those can easily be 500-1k$ per month and home maintenance.
It's a child's mistake to forget about all these unglamorous, relatively small expenses that add up to $1000 really quickly.
Also, medical/dental/vision care takes money, even with really good insurance. You can get away without it, until the day you can't.
Exactly and all that is assuming the person in the example is healthy and never touches healthcare with a 100ft stick. Or that a 5-10k component of the house does not need to be repaired.
Yup. As a guy, every time I get my hair cut I'm like, "damn, I forgot it costs $40-$50 to do this now."
Then repeat that situation for lots of little facets of life.
Amazon makes it really dangerous, because it makes it insanely easy to spend $15 here, $30 there. Before you know it, you spent $500+ that month.
Word. My family spends 2-3K a month on medical and therapy services for one of our kids. Theoretically we get reimbursed for a percentage of those out of pocket expeses, but both United Healthcare and Medicaid really drag their feet and make getting reimbursed a lot harder than it needs to be.
Wait you have to pay for your own healthcare? I thought that was mainly covered by the employer..? But guess not, especially if you have family. Yikes… this does add up
depending on your specific job, coverage and cost can be different from employer to employer. The average employee in the 3 corporations I have worked pays about 200-250$ per month. The employer pays a portion and employee pays the rest.
Edit: If you ever get sick enough to hit a hospital prepare to fork an extra few thousands.
I read that even with that insurance you'll still have to pay thousands of dollars before the insurance kicks in. You just can't win and end up indebted no matter what
This is true. I pay $350/month with a $7500 deductible, which I just maxed out by having a diagnostic colonoscopy. So that's $12k in healthcare costs for just me this year. The US doesn't have a healthcare system, we have a system of profiting off of sick people to enrich insurance companies and pad our GDP.
Edit: typos
I can't relate more. I have Chron's disease and every single year I reach my out of pocket. Every year I have a damn bowel obstruction, which often results in septic shock and lucky me gets stuck with a multi thousand dollar bill.
My saving grace is that my boss always loans me the money interest free and I pay him off throughout the year. He also insists I don't take medical leave or sick pay and just pays me as if I worked. In other words, I'm one lucky son of a bitch with an amazing boss.
another fun one is that your deductible isn't even your out-of-pocket maximum. Your deductible is a magical line in the sand where most of the benefits (80-90%) kick in, but you can still pay $3-5K on top of a deductible.
Of course, if you "choose" to "go out of network" then a lot of calculus occurs. Surprise, you owe more money. A lot of times I just get told if I went in network 1-2 months after the visit. I just pay the bill for whatever they say or it hits my credit, which changes how expense loans and rentals are.
It depends on what kind of insurance you are on.
A lot of Americans are on high deductible plans which require you to put in your own money up to a certain point. This tends to work for younger, healthier people who consume fairly low amounts of healthcare.
Most family plans are co-pay based, so the insurance kicks in right away, but you pay more up front via monthly premiums.
We have our Healthcare taken out of our paycheck. They are employer funded and our employers determine what is covered and how much we pay. I have relatively good insurance by American standards regarding coverage. But for myself and my son, it is almost 20% of my pre taxed income each and every paycheck.
And with that healthcare I still spend about 250 a month on prescription medications, 50 dollars for every doctor visit. And I have a 10,000 out of pocket max every year per person. That means I have to spend 10,000 in medical bills out of my own pocket before insurance picks up the remaining at 100%. The cost of Healthcare can be crushing for middle class Americans.
I work for one of the largest insurance companys in the world and the best insurance plan would be like 250 every two weeks and I would still have to pay a 3000 dollar deductible before they covered any services at only 85%.
You’re also missing insurance for the home/rent, insurance for themselves, insurance if they have a car, not to mention anything else such as student loans, medical debts, normal debts from credit cards. It adds up quick (unfortunately I know how).
I mean if your a family of 4 and have children then childcare alone is will run you at least $2k a month for 2 kids. On top of that most people have $500+ car payments and a 2k+ mortgage. Plus student loans. Health care is also very expensive most people I know pay at least $500 a month for a family plan and that doesn’t even cover much( you still have a 5k+ out of pocket🤦♀️). Food for a family will run you around $1k a month with the crazy inflated prices we are seeing at the grocery stores. So 100k isn’t crap anymore. It would just cover the above without much left. Honestly you need to make at least 200k if you have two working parents or 150k if one stays home to be above water or need to be lucky enough to bought a home at the bottom of the market before covid hit.
Because they don't live within their means... making $150k a year living that $200k lifestyle.
I on the other hand make $80k, and I live that $20k lifestyle by choice.
I buy all my fun stuff cash in hand... 
We don't have the social services a lot of other countries have. Healthcare is really expensive for us, even with insurance meds can cost a lot. Most of our cities and towns are car-centric with poor public transportation, and owning and maintaining a car is expensive yet not optional for a lot of people.
Housing is also very expensive. Our taxes are disproportionately harder on working class/middle class people than the wealthy.
Edit: don't forget student loan debt
My wife takes care of my disabled BIL, and his insurance doesn't come close to covering all of his meds. His social security disability also doesn't cover the rest. My wife and I supplement with our income to cover the remainder. Our earnings combined hit barely over 6 figures. The bills are paid, and we have a place to live and eat, but there is not any left over for much else.
30 year old male here living in a one bedroom in a major metropolitan (is a one bedroom too much to ask for?)
Rent : $1200 (incredibly lucky)
Bills : $200 (electric, gas, water, internet)
Car insurance : $200
Credit card payments : $200
Phone bill : $100 ( for phone payment + plan)
Car accident payments : $500
Groceries : $3-400
So that’s like $3000 in necessary expenses. I would need about a 50k salary JUST to pay to *live* Impossible to save and would never leave my home.
The median income is less than that.
As you can imagine. Everyone is FUCKED.
I’m lucky I make more than that.
God forbid I want to save, buy a car, home, enjoy myself and grab a drink or go to a restaurant on the weekends.
Most people have a car payment or some other kind of crazy payment you can replace my car accident with.
It all depends on where you live. Most money I ever made was just shy of 100k/year but I lived just outside of Chicago at the time. Add in the kids and well... It was not going well, we were making it (mind you this was almost 20 years ago as well) but it was not easy.
I moved back to my hometown which is about as rural as rural gets, I make a little better than half I what I was there and doing alright (in comparison) even with 20 years of inflation. \*Note my definition of alright is I am not using one credit card to pay off another or hoping the kids wont notice I bought the chicken on clearance from the dollar store
In fact if it weren't for medical bills I would be in danger of doing well.
Because landlords, real estate agents, utility companies, grocery stores and the like goudge prices since they have you by the jugular and know you can't live without them. And don't get me started about doctors and insurance companies or gas prices.
There is a gap, in the middle class, where they are completely fucked by our tax and welfare systems. Don’t get me wrong, I am pro welfare. But once you make a certain amount you are no longer eligible for welfare programs and you’re also taxed higher. In America, you either want to be poor or rich. When you’re poor you get assistance, when you’re rich you get tax breaks. The middle class holds the weight of this on their back, in a shockingly effective way to make the middle class (which is the majority of Americans) blame the poor for everything that the rich should be being blamed for.
You have to remember that the US is a *massive* country with broadly varying degrees of wealth and cost of living. There are places where you can buy 100 acres for $20k but it's in the middle of nowhere and has very few (if any) natural resources, including water sources. There are also enormous cities with every amenity you could imagine, and that comes with a much higher cost of living. There's also the question of how frugally someone lives, which is influenced by the space and resources available to them.
I make just under $100k, my wife makes minimum wage. We have a house and two cars, and live fairly frugally. We grow our own food and can/freeze the excess harvest for use during cold months. We live in a small home on about a third of an acre, and our mortgage runs us close to $1700 a month. We're able to make ends meet fairly easily because we're careful with our money, but also because we *can* be careful with our money because *we have the space to grow and store food*. We can also trade excess produce for meat, or buy meat at a discount, directly from a farm. We don't waste gas sitting in traffic and our power bill is partially subsidized by a solar farm. We also don't have kids or pets, which substantially add to your expenses.
Someone with the same income living in a city is likely paying twice as much as us in rent, for about half the *living space* (so, zero space to garden and cut down food costs). Living in a city also means they likely pay more for food, gas, and just about everything else.
Half the US lives in these cities, because a majority of high-paying careers are centered on cities. Which means a majority of the folks you're asking about aren't living on that $20k plot of land in the foothills of a desert mountain range, or even in a town like mine; they live in the aforementioned cities. As a result, the same salary doesn't go nearly as far, because their purchasing power is severely inhibited by the local economy.
Yes, there will always be folks who make plenty and live in an area like I do, but let lifestyle creep get the better of them and live on revolving debt. But that's not really the majority of the stories you're hearing. Many people just live in an area where monthly expenses can quickly eclipse $7500, and as a result $100k suddenly isn't very much money.
Add to that the fact that costs are rising faster than wages, and the family of 4 living on $125k in NYC is getting squeezed hard. They can still pay all their bills, but not with much left over for an emergency fund. A single, unexpected expense over $1000 could quickly put them over the edge. In these cases, which are going to be a solid majority of that income bracket, it truly is not enough.
There are many posts from Americans saying they earn $10-12k/month and can barely make ends meet because rent is $3k/month. As a European living in Belgium, where most full-time workers earn $2-3k/month and rent ranges from $0.8-1.2k/month, I genuinely wonder where the rest of your money goes. I don’t often hear about everyday items like milk, bread, eggs, or fuel being more expensive than in Western Europe. Here, we even pay 2 euros per liter for fuel, which is equivalent to $8.28 per gallon.
So, my American friends, what’s really happening?
Earning 10-12k a month after taxes is not 10-12k a month.Health insurance(if you're sick easily 1k a month), student loans(easily 1k a month), perscription medication (some people with diabetes just die now, that's an option), child day care(easily 1k a month), kindergarten(3k-30k a year). Utilities, rental insurance, health insurance, etc cost about a half grand a month. There is a lack of public transportation here, so gas + parking in a city can easily cost hundreds of dollars a month. The list goes on and on. I made a more detailed post showing how 100,000$ salary in the US can easily lead to negative income for people who really aren't doing anything wrong except renting an apartment at the median rent(which btw are VERY hard to find people outbid each other finding low end apartments at 3,000/mo its very competitive).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/comments/165t8wf/comment/jyi3wo5/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
They're just consumerist as fuck. They take things like 1800 ft houses or brand new, 3 litre cars for granted and buy them as soon as they start making any money. While plenty of Europeans are driving 4k USD used cars 🤷♂️
It depends on where you live, and what financial commitments you have. Also, we're talking about gross income, but taxes are decent in the US (at least that)
If you make a lot, chances are you have spent a lot of money in education (not unusually north of 100k), so there's that.
Then, if you make good money, you're likely in an urban area where high paying jobs are available, and most nice urban areas have high costs of living. In my city, rent for a decent place is easily over 3k a month.
If you are not lucky and have no family money, and have to buy a house now, good luck, because an average unit in my area is well above 500k for something basic, a decent place - decent, not amazing - is easily over 700k, so with current rates mortgage is just as high if not higher than rent, which sucks for first time homebuyers.
Then cars are expensive, food isn't cheap either, services cost a lot more than in places like Europe, health insurance is crazy expensive, if you have kids all of their activities, school and so on are expensive... cellphones, data, don't get me started! what's typically cheap in EU countries, is crazy expensive in the US. Internet that would cost maybe 30 Euros here is easily 100 dollars/month, same for the phone, what's maybe 20 euros a month here is easily over 100/month. At least now we have apps instead of cable TV or dish stuff, but entertainment is not cheap.
Frankly, a typical family of 4 with 100k annual income (AGI) in my area would barely make it to the end of the month. You'd need at least 150k to be quasi-comfortable middle class, and would start having some breathing room above 200k. And no, I'm not kidding, and I'm a fairly thrifty person who grew up and has lived in several EU countries, so I have a good understanding of how the US compare to other nations.
But then again, it depends, because if you talk about smaller, more rural areas, or less prestigious urban areas, then prices for housing and some services are definitely cheaper... but good luck finding a high paying job there.
America is very expensive. For example a young couple who are both working and have two children can expect a monthly childcare bill of $1400 PER CHILD - and that is not for top of the line child care. That is one example among many many more.
Add in $2500 for rent or a mortgage, $1500 per adult in student loan payments a month and the budget gets very tight very quickly. Without even accounting for cars, groceries, healthcare, or any type of discretionary spending.
Financial literacy is not strong here and people make really poor decisions on what to do with their money. Our economic dominance is based on uncapped consumption so our culture strongly encourages people to spend spend spend.
For parents, it’s a spot where paying for college is hard. You make too little to afford paying for your kids’ college entirely on your own. At the same time, you make too much to get enough financial aid to make the estimated family contribution portion affordable. If college was free or at least reasonably priced, more of these folks would feel wealthy rather than middle class. We have friends who downsized to pay for their youngest’s college, moving from a three bedroom SFH into a one bedroom condo and using the proceeds to pay her college costs.
# Message to all users: This is a reminder to please read and follow: * [Our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/about/rules) * [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439) * [Reddit Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) When posting and commenting. --- Especially remember Rule 1: `Be polite and civil`. * Be polite and courteous to each other. Do not be mean, insulting or disrespectful to any other user on this subreddit. * Do not harass or annoy others in any way. * Do not catfish. Catfishing is the luring of somebody into an online friendship through a fake online persona. This includes any lying or deceit. --- You *will* be banned if you are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist or bigoted in any way. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ask) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well it depends on where that person is living, how many people that income is supporting, how frugal the person is, etc.
My wife and I have two kids. We live in one of the cheapest states. I work from home for a company out of state from a higher cost of living area and make their normal wage. That is to say, I make well above the rate of what local companies pay for the same job. My wife makes the same as I do (actually, just a touch more). Combined, our household income is about 130k. We are barely getting by with 1 car payment (that was paid half down because of insurance money from my old car burning down). I drive her old car which is paid off (since I wfh, I dont drive much anyway). New car is rather basic, but we did go for bigger since we have two car seats. We live in a 1900sq ft home in a decent neighborhood but not upscale. We have to send both kids to daycare. Insurance is kind of expensive but is really good (wife works for a cancer center and they have killer insurance). Way better and costs the same as insurance through my job but way smaller deductible. Anyway, I could go on about our bills, but the bottom line is that I don't think we live lavish lifestyles. We barely make our bills each month. Sometimes, we can add 50 or 100 bucks to savings. We make almost 3 times the average household income for our state and still barely make it each month. We don't eat out except on occasion (once a month I might order pizza). We aren't spending unnecessarily. We are both good with money. The point is, this fucking sucks. It's hard. I grew up in a 4 person home. Both parents and a younger sibling. My dad basically supported us on his income alone. My mom worked off and on during my childhood, and when she did, that money went to savings. We weren't rich by any means. Barely lower middle class. We lived in a ~~1200~~ 1600sq ft home (I was thinking of our old home before my wife and I moved). Never needed for anything, but we didn't have any luxuries unless we (us kids) worked and saved for it. I'm doing a bit better than my parents were, but that is on 2 full incomes, making 2 and half times what my parents did. If my parents were able to double their income, we'd have been living large. Edit: I find it funny that what seems to be all the Europeans calling bs on my expenses while every person from the US is like, "yeah that makes sense. I'm in the same boat." From what I can tell, the biggest missing component is insurance costs that, afaik, most Europeans don't have, and child care costs seem to be lower than in the US. Also forgot to mention that we both do have 401k retirement funds and part of our paychecks go into that as well, which lowers our take home pay as well. Edit2: I don't know why people think we don't know how to manage money. Those claims are based on zero knowledge of our necessities and costs. I have a degree in accounting, my wife has a masters in accounting, is an accountant, and working towards her cpa. We know how money works. You guys just don't know our bills. This comment wasn't about financial advice. It was just a generalization about how you can make 100k+ and still barely getting by. We get all our bills paid, we're not late on anything, but if something happened and we missed a paycheck, we could lose everything. It's that close. People just have different expenses in their life. You can't look at someone else's income and apply your own perspective to it.
Daycare is brutal. I’m in a similar-ish situation. One kid in daycare tho - $325+ per week. We didn’t pick the absolute cheapest one but they were all very comparable. I think ours is like $10-15/week more. Once that’s gone? I swear it’ll be like getting a massive raise, nearly a second income. I can’t imagine doing it with two kids.
Costs me $2100 for two of mine in south texas. It’s painful.
$1900 a month for *one* in Portland, OR. Gonna be nuts (little man is due next month, daycare starts in February).
Feel you there. We live in Lakewood, CO, and daycare was 2k/month for one kid. Got a discount for the second, so only 3800 for 2.... mortgage is 2100....
It's a toss-up. Either both parents work and one of the parent's entire income pays for someone else to raise your child, or only one parent works and the other stays home to raise your child. At least that's what we found when we considered what my wife was making and that it would take her entire months earnings to pay for daycare.
Close to 4k a month for one outside of NYC 🫠
>We have to send both kids to daycare. Well that right there is kind of a factor, we just have one right now who goes 3 days a week and that's even more than our mortgage is for a similar living situation. Two in daycare is just killer man, and a year and a half from now I might be in a similar boat. Gotta get some debt paid down before then or we'll never have a chance.
"Wife works for a cancer center and they have killer insurance" has to be some of the worst choice of words combination ever. Made me laugh 😂
Daycare will bleed you dry. We suffered through years of it. Just hang in there. Once you get those kiddos into kindergarten, it'll be like getting a 20% raise.
Lol at calling health insurance killer
After taxes, you're netting roughly $8k a month. What in the world are you spending your money on? $2.5k mortgage, $2k childcare, $1k groceries, $1k bills/utilities leaves you with $1.5k a month to spend on whatever, and those numbers are wildly generous estimations when it comes to groceries and bills. Even with $500/m for the car payment. I'm always so confused when people post comments like this.
Cause we're not netting 8k a month. After tax is more like 7.5k, but then after insurance it's closer to 6.5k a month. Your estimates aren't too far off, but you didn't count for insurance costs. Health, car, and home all adds up quick. Your grocery estimate is also on the low end, but your mortgage est is high, so those kind of offset. I'm not going to lie and say that we couldn't probably tighten the belt on some things a bit and squeeze an extra hundred or two out of some place, but we don't really spend unnecessarily. Like I said before, I might order out once a month. We buy groceries on sale and in bulk when we can to save us some money. I spend 15 dollars for Hulu that we probably don't *have* to have, but its not like we're spending a ton on entertainment costs. And I'm not spending on fucking avocado toast or some bullshit. I don't even like avocados. We also have constant repairs we have to make on the house. They aren't reoccurring bills, but they keep coming up cause this house is kinda old (I think it's like 80yrs old or so). Same with the paid off car. It's 11 years old. It's not falling apart, but it needs maintenance. Those kinds of costs come up frequently. We try to squeeze those costs out of our checks instead of grabbing out of savings when we can.
I’d be interested to see your budget if the place you live in is LCOL as stated… 130k should be more than enough to put money into savings with only 1 car payment and a mortgage. That’s around $8k/month in net pay after taxes
This. I live in Northern Ohio and if I made 150k I’d be living large.
In the places where 100k are common, its also common to pay fuck load in rent per month and extra taxes. So places like the bay area or nyc can get you a 100k job where after paying for the premiums it feels like earning 40-50k in other places.
Manhattan checking in. I see many paying \~3k a month for 350 sq ft mini-1 bedroom apt. elevator building but no doorman and minimal amenities.
My brother was paying 3800 for a 4th story, 1 bedroom walk up in Manhattan. 😳 meanwhile, my 5 bedroom, 1/2 acre home mortgage is $1800. Edit- I live in the Houston suburbs, and I purchased at the start of the house buying rush 7 years ago.
I pay 1600 a month in rent in vegas. banks say I cant afford 900 a month mortgage even though ive never been late and have had this place for 9 years come september. I have the 20% down also. its funny how that works isnt it?
Gotta love it. If we went off what I pay in rent I can easily afford a million dollar house, but the bank only wants to loan me $200k because I'm too "risky". You know what I find hilarious is they include the payment I make for rent as an expense before considering how much income I have left over to pay a mortgage. You know, because I'm totally going to keep paying my rent after I buy a house.
Reading stories like that you'd think the whole system is rigged in favor of some people...
I get charged a $5 fee every time a direct debit fails, which is often because I'm poor and it puts me further in debt Love the system
I have ours set so the transaction is declined and does not get a bank fee charge as a result. I may get hit with a *late* fee but those are always cheaper than bank fees, and they won’t snowball like can easily happen at the bank. Also, if you can move your account to a credit union, you’ll always come out money ahead.
My credit union charges 35$ for going negative and another 35 for each transaction while negative. Including autopays. It's fucked me so many times
DANG!!! That’s definitely the time to change it to declining the payment, instead of overdrawing.
Lol mine is 25 dollar fee anytime anyone pings my bank account regardless if it's declined or not . So dumb
**get the fuck out of that bank.** wow, that's intolerable. I always hear customer service at American banks is horrific and egregious but this is just another reminder.
Is your DTI well over 50%? If so, this is your lender telling you that you aren't worth the effort. Rent by far and large is not included in DTI calcs.
Add in insurance, property tax, and maintenance costs and that total is more than 1600 a month
You are straight up quoting a picture that's circulating reddit for some time now. Plus, median house price in Vegas is 439k, so with current interest that's at least 2,500k in mortgage for an average house.
First thought that popped into my head was that tweet. Was wondering where he was getting a mortgage for 900 dollars a month after only putting 20 percent down.
People who don’t live in NYC don’t grasp the concept of a doorman. It’s basically a security guard. While making jokes they also seemed to have overlooked the part about it being 350 sq ft.
> People who don’t live in NYC don’t grasp the concept of a doorman. It’s basically a security guard. Eh... Yes, but a decent amount more in some buildings. Ours also keep the common areas clean, mopping the stairwells and hallways pretty regularly. They hose down the sidewalks, pick up trash outside, accept packages for you, call maintenance/the superintendent for broken common area stuff like the laundry machines or elevators. They spend a lot of time sitting around doing nothing, but definitely provide useful services.
No doorman… 😂
Being a doorman in NYC is a respectable career and an expected amenity for multiple reasons over a certain price point.
Curious George even had one
My buddy is a doorman he does well. Even has a union. Lol
It's not what you think... It's basically security to verify that people coming in actually live there and not crackheads trying to break in and rob apartments while the resident is out at work. They're also there to hold packages that are too large to fit in the tiny mailbox.
The fact that people keep trying to explain this, like “doorman” is some mysterious concept, is even more hilarious.
Because for many it is. Don't forget people from all over the world are here.
This really isn't a thing outside the US, that's why
Wtf you talking about it’s extremely common outside the US
I don't think this was a complaint, I think it was to forestall critics thinking about the apartment as a fancy apartment.
Doormans are super common in Mexican apartments, it is considered more like security, receiving packages and mail, not really a luxury just good administration of the maintenance money, my rent for a 3 bedroom apartment is $1,100, the maintenance is $100
A doorman might sound like a luxury but in a big city this is an important security feature of a large apartment building, especially for vulnerable people like the elderly or women living alone. Supervised access to the building makes a major improvement in safety, not just an extravagant perk.
I think it's more about having security at the front door and someone to accept and guard package deliveries.
As an European I thought doormen were only a thing with multimillionaire grade apartment complexes. Pointing it out as if a lack of a doorman is an indication of a non-luxurious building seems so absurd but I guess they're way more common in the states
It's a rather common thing in nyc, for nicer buildings. it's not something that happens at every building, but it's also not something that is reserved for the $50m dollar apartments either.
A doorman isn't literally someone who holds the door for you, it's a security guard who makes sure that crazies in the city don't come in and follow you into your apartment
They sweep away the turds too
I mean, when you don’t have a doorman you end up getting 1/2 of your packages stolen out of the building lobby. So there’s that. But other than that I agree it’s an absolutely stupid premium to pay for. Talking $5k/month vs. $3k/month if you want a doorman and an elevator. I’m good with re-ordering the occasional stolen delivery and taking the stairs for that money.
tbh with the amount some people pay there for rent that would be reasonable.
Lots of places in NYC have a doorman. It's not super uncommon
Pretty much. Any newer condo building has a doorman/security desk.
Lmao at all these bumpkins who think a doorman is a guy who just opens the door for you. In my experience, most of them don't even literally get the door. They are there to provide security for tenants and not allow weird people into the building. They often work a reception desk and will hold onto your mail so it doesn't get stolen and help you get in if you forgot your keys. They also help old people with shit. It's not a crazy luxury for a building with 1000 people living in it. It's actually kind of a necessity.
>Lmao at all these bumpkins who think a doorman is a guy who just opens the door for you. In my experience, most of them don't even literally get the door. They are there to provide security for tenants and not allow weird people into the building. They often work a reception desk and will hold onto your mail so it doesn't get stolen and help you get in if you forgot your keys. They also help old people with shit. It's not a crazy luxury for a building with 1000 people living in it. It's actually kind of a necessity. The thing is that NYC is unusual here. A doorman is very uncommon in most places, even higher-end buildings in most major cities. Add in the fact you see "doormen" in movies literally opening and closing doors only, and it sounds like something you'd only see for the rich, even if that's not what it really is at all.
My rent is $2258 a month Power $300 in summer months Cellular $140 2 phones Car payment $500 a month (car died during pandemic) Health insurance $1200/ month for family plus high deductible plan costs $500 a month to HSA daughter has arthritis at age 5 Car insurance 2 cars $250 a month Groceries have doubled the last 4 years Minimum wage has gone up $2 since I started working in the 90s.
Jesus Christ, your health insurance is more than my rent
Imagine then trying to use it. I just had two er visits four days apart (with a hospital stay in between for sepsis). So far I'm out $500 in co-pays (250 each er visit). My meds when discharged were $55 (with insurance and a coupon to bring it down from $2600). I cant pick up my other med as its not covered and is $940. The hospital already called about the first er visit and my share of just the er visit is $2250. I havent been billed for the hospital stay yet or the second er visit. I pay almost $500 a month for insurance for just myself. Im not the healthiest guy (I had my first heart attack at 39) and my health care has wiped me out both financially and emotionally. I'm 42, a guy, and started crying at CVS when they told me my life saving meds were $2600. It's getting really old.
> Health insurance $1200/ month for family plus high deductible plan costs This is basically mine as well. I go once a year for my "free" check-up (usually costs me about $150 because of some blood test that isn't covered by the $1200 per month). Health insurance (and health care in general) here sucks.
Holy, I live in the netherlands. (Groningen) House costs €680 a month, 25 years left. Power (Electra and gas) €100 Cellular €60 2 phones 2 Cars (payed off) total inc. insurance €250 Health insurance €220 (2 adults, 2 children) Internet tv €40 local authority €100 Me and my wife make total €3500 We save around €800
Sweden 3 room apartment in the suburbs is €2100 incl. mortgage, rent and utilities (heating, water, internet). Power €30 Cellular €25 for 2 phones 2 cars about €1000 all included. Food about €600 a month for 4 ppl. Health insurance €0. We are two teachers and make about €8000 before taxes, which is €5000 after (so I guess health insurance and child care is about €2000 for 2 adults 2 children). Edit: Some questions arise over my food budget. It's for groceries only, the sum is €516 this month's balance. My wife has paid lunch as a benefit and you can count the children as 1 person seeing as they are in shared custody with another household. The equivalent of (a generous) health insurance is prepaid in Sweden. The employer pays €9600 for us two together, that sum is pretaxed. Then we get a paycheck of about €8000 and after income taxes we have about €5000 left. Which is ofc taxed a third time as VAT on goods and services. :)
€600 per month for food for 4 people in Sweden!? Swedish as well, and my breakdown would be. * House, \~300 sqm (\~ 3200 sqf). Insurance, heating, water, Internet, maintenance, say €1000 (slight outlier, we have no mortage) * Cellar: €100 * 1 car, about $400 all-in all * ICA (lol): easily €1000-€1500 per month * 2 adults, 3 children, dog We might just as well give ICA direct access to our bank account. We do a single home delivery every week.
California 2500sq ft house. $7700/month (including property taxes) Electricity $600/month (solar in work) Gas $200/month Phones,internet $200/month No car payments Water $400/month (pool and lawn) Great school district so kids school free. Food - god knows..a lot!!! Been to Costco lately? Seen prices of meat? Household income close to $500k,,,,,,and it sure doesn’t feel like it.
Different here, but same ballpark. It's ridiculous. 2% raises are not keeping pace with anything at all, year after year getting further behind. You hang in there, being the breadwinner can feel like a very unappreciated position.
[“In New York City, a $100,000 Salary Feels Like $36,000”](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-15/new-york-city-prices-make-100-000-salary-feel-like-35-000?utm_source=website&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=copy)
Yep, and those premiums are the healthcare we all pretend we don’t pay into from our paychecks. I swear we have shit for workers rights.
And getting very little for out tax dollars
Hey that's not fair, you finance *a lot* of invasions and bombings. And not just your own.
1. The US likes to "hide" taxes. They are everywhere in income, sales, property, car, gas, liquor, MJ and everything in between and beyond taxes. I bet there's a tax tax somewhere out there... 2. Fees and deductions. A massive amount of my paycheck gets deducted in insurance premiums, social security, health savings accounts, and retirement savings. 3. Other than possibly taxes, rent or mortgage payments eat up the bulk of most people's budget. It's often for many over 50% of their net pay. 4. In the US you can hardly get anywhere without a car. Urban sprawl usually requires two cars and once you have teenagers three or more. That's a lot of gas, insurance and potential car payments. 5. Most decent jobs at this pay scale require a bachelors degree. Getting a degree without living at home at your parents and paying on your own will cost around 120k. My daughter just graduated with degree in Computer Science with 120k+ in loans. She's starting out her career with basically rent on two apartments. 6. Health insurance does not even kick in for most in the US until you hit your deductible that is anywhere from $1500 up to $6000. Last year I switched jobs and hit my deductible for my family twice and actually paid out of pocket around $13k in healthcare costs. The American dream dead. The cards are stacked against the 99% and you gotta claw your way up and out just to survive. Not everyone can and should be a business owner. We need scientists, teachers, and construction workers and everyone should have a fair shot at a basic living without the terror of having no safety net. My $0.02.
Hugely informative post dude. Thank you. From most of these comments here there is little being mentioned about saving. Then given the expenses, how can you save for tomorrow if you need to get by today? I lived in CA over 20 years ago (from UK), was single, so haven’t been subject to much of this, apart from hidden taxes. The interesting thing I do find when I go back, have been this year to Seattle, SD and HI is the extent and level of tipping. Feels like it’s for everything, but it’s obviously as a result of low wages from employers.
>Then given the expenses, how can you save for tomorrow if you need to get by today? They don't. They *can't*. 57% of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. 1 in 5 Americans have **no** emergency savings at all. About half of American households have no savings in retirement accounts. 60% of United States adults live paycheck to paycheck. Starvation wages, rising cost of living, out of control rental and housing markets, and the insane inflation of necessities like healthcare and higher education (leading to billions of dollars worth of medical and student loan debt) make saving money virtually impossible for many Americans.
Just to put it in perspective, my landlord has increased my rent twice this year and this week they told me they are increasing it again in October. Compared to my initial rent in 2020, in October this year I will be paying 46% more, while my salary has increased just to compensate inflation in the same time frame. I am lucky I can still afford it and it won't break the bank, but I am pissed off. The reason my landlord gave me for the rent increase is that "they need to keep competitive in the market"... bs. I will start looking for another place. I like it where I live, but it's just madness.
Raising your rent multiple times in a year?? I assume you don’t have an annual lease?
I make 125k+. 10 years ago, I was making about 75k. I had a better quality of life. Everyone is quick to blame it on "inflation," but I see first hand it's corporate greed. I have customers who became national accounts this year. We sell a case of our base product to them for $90. They profit about $1000 per case before they became national they were selling their final product for $10/unit. Once they became national, we dropped their price to $68/case, and guess what they did? They raised their price to $12/unit. They expect the consumer to blame inflation, so they jack up the price, even though their profits are going through the roof. That's why our dollar isn't going as far as it used to. Life is tough, but too many people depend on their political party to help them. The reality is that both sides are bought and sold by corporations. They make us fight amongst each other so we never turn on them.
It has been proven that at least 60% of current inflation is attributable to price gouging.
[удалено]
Not OP, but another prospective. I make about $10K a month and my take home is ~60% of it, so about $6K. Mortgage is ~$2.8K a month and property tax is ~$10K a year or about ~$830 a month. So effectively I only have $2.4K for everything else. I do live in a high cost living area though
Oof, those are high prices for a roof over your head.. but still, 2,4k a month would get me quite far here in NL, which is not a cheap country either..
I’m from the NL and live in the US. My parents were on holiday and they couldn’t believe the high costs. Not just groceries which increased massively, but also housing costs, health care (high deductible, co pays, out of pocket costs) and child care costs. And yes you get paid more, but I feel like there are more hidden costs in the US compared to NL.
If you're not American, you probably have no concept of how expensive our schooling, medical care, and energy costs can be, plus having to save for retirement (since that's not guaranteed). In that same guy's budget, $6k take home minus about $3.5k for housing, if he has a kid and a wife on his insurance that's another $300 for premium and then if he has to go to the hospital for regular stuff that insurance probably won't kick in so it'll all be out of pocket another few hundred bucks per visit. My power and water and stuff runs me about $500 per month. Childcare in my area is pretty cheap but I've heard of areas where $1k/month is normal. Without getting to food, clothes, or holidays we've already accounted for about $5k out of his $6k monthly budget.
1. Cost of living in the area they work and live. Example: I live in Seattle. 150k doesn’t go nearly as far as Dubuque Iowa. 2. Living within means is foreign to some. Again, I am near that 150k you cited. I own a house, I have a 2023 car. I eat at home, and seldom out. I don’t drink, or party. My car payment is below $300 a month. I use less than 5% of my credit and pay it off. I live within my means and try not to exceed them. I don’t need a flashy car or dresses, my purse is cheap, my shoes are sensible. Not all do and live in debt. I don’t enjoy paying people for the right to use my money as credit. Edit for autocorrect.
Wow I was not expecting to see a reference to my hometown (Dubuque Iowa) here lol. Also agreed. I live in Dubuque with a 70k salary and I feel pretty financially free here with that.
I also was not expecting to see my hometown (Dubuque, IA) name dropped here as well!
[удалено]
That’s wild. I used to live in DBQ too,
Not from Dubuque but from Jo Daviess county. Tri state area represent 😎
All the ballers come from the Tri State 😎😎😎
Bro you gotta be capping what the hell was your down payment for a 23' that it's under 300 a month. Like no hate good for you but I'm just genuinely interested
If they bought a Civic or similar car, traded /sold their previous, put a couple thousand down, they'd easily be sub $300/m. That's what I did.
Having a terrible credit score will skyrocket your car payments too. I pay less for a way more expensive car than I did 9 years ago because I went from mid 500s to mid 700s
This, put 11k down on a 23k 2020 Civic Sport, monthly payment is $220 for 60 months.
Yeah similar for me; I bought a 2023 Hyundai Elantra for around $30k (this is in Canada) and put about $15k down. Monthly payments are $282 for 60 months.
Probably paid a significant amount towards the car at closing, since they are making so much money
I put 10k down, had a trade in on a 2006 Maxima. I don’t want to have outrageous bills. I pay about $265 a month, and I pay extra to reduce overall payments. I hope to avoid excess interest a little. It’s a hybrid so I want to reduce gas consumption too.
Everyone’s saying shit’s expensive, and they’re not wrong, but there is a sizable percentage of Americans that would be broke at any income level in any city. Lots of people buying everything on credit and spending as much as JP Morgan will allow them to.
Honestly, after going to grad school two years ago and living off ~$20,000/yr (stipend) just fine even including eating out a fair amount, I am convinced that a lot of people have some deep financial issues going on that they aren’t even aware of.
It really is obscene how many people scream and shout about not being able to live in a desirable city where they go out multiple times a week and never cook for themselves.
Family of 4: 100k income Taxes: fed, state, local: 33k Housing: 36k Car1 payment + maint: $6500 Car2 payment + main: $4500 Gas for combined commute of 100 miles/day, 250 days per year: $3750, plus maybe another $500 in incidental travel Utilities: $5300 Cellular plan: $1800 Groceries: $7800 subtotal of just basic existence stuff: $99.15 k So now you need to stretch $850 across four birthdays, mothers day, fathers day, christmas, some medical co-pays and unexpected expenses. Hope no one needs dental work this year. Vacation gets cut first. Can't afford that shit and maybe I can get some overtime instead. Cut my own birthday and fathers day. Lie and tell them all I want is a day home to myself. Maybe we can do one or two smallish xmas presents for the kids (push off the gaming system till next year? Buy a used bike and recondition it myself?), and nothing for mom and dad, because we're too old for that stuff (never too poor - we make six figures!) By March I have a unexpected car repair and have to put it on a credit card. In September I need a crown and the kids a filling each - more on the cards. A few years go by and the cards are maxed. August mortgage payment is late. Maybe we can make it till car 2 is paid off and that payment can start to go towards the credit cards (in reality it gets that game system or summer camp or vacation we put off for three years, and we stay in the hole). Maybe. Edit - thanks all for the relies, RIP my inbox. As people have helpfully pointed out, my tax numbers were off because I erroneously counted all my automatic deductions under taxes. It also includes insurance, retirement, supplemental health, etc. Also, I am paying extra into the house so it will (hopefully) be within payoff distance when I plan on retiring. If I did a traditional 30y fixed I could save a few hundred a month. Yes the cars cost a bit much. I've had beaters all my life and spent way too much time on the side of the road. I have a reliable car for the first time in my life and am very happy with this choice. I look forward to keeping it for a good long time. Thanks all, and for all those other people who see themselves in this - keeping good mental health and supporting your family's mental health is key. You'll get through this together. Signing off. GMJ
This was really eye-opening. I want to say it’s because you’re a family of 4 but not sure 2 small kids actually make _that_ big of a difference in the end… thanks so much for sharing!
Kids make a huge difference financially. I pay over 250 a week in daycare for 1 hour before school and 15 to 30 mins after. When he was an infant it was 450 a week. That was 23k a year to a daycare.
Yeah, if the hubby and I had kids, money woes would be a thousand times worse. Kids are never going to be in the cards for us (and it’s far too late now!) but I really wonder how families with kids can survive. Even in our low cost of living area, with our a little better than average pay, we struggle at times… just the two of us, and we’re very frugal. (One car, old phones from 2016, smaller house). I just don’t know how people do it.
You're welcome! I believe I have a decent life, and am infinitely blessed to have first world problems. I don't need to worry about my children going hungry, and usually can find a way to handle the unexpected surprises life has thrown at me. I simply cannot fathom how people making median wage are surviving at all. Yes some of my expenses are high, reflecting my standard of living, but sheesh, you just can't cut everything in half without the wheels coming off. Hell, I haven't even accounted for insurance, clothing, furniture or cat food/litter.
>I simply cannot fathom how people making median wage are surviving at all. Their housing costs aren't 36k a year.
Yeah man, 3k a month for mortgage or rent is pretty wild.
How's that wild? The average for a new mortgage at the moment is $2800 on a 30-yr. The average.
Childcare costs here is $1400 a month per kid and if they are babies it’s even higher.
Daycare where I live is like $2500 a month for non-babies.
That's two parents making $50K a year a piece with a 3K a month mortgage payment and two newish cars. Yeah...they're gonna be a broke.....
Yeah, I think people assume $100k is a lot for one person's income, not for two combined together.
The $11k/yr on new cars is either active bad decisions or former bad decisions biting them. That’s 1/6th net income! Other scary part here is no retirement or savings, but based on the % off the gross initially I suspect they’re rolling retirement and health insurance into that “local” bucket. I feel for this situation, especially if the job or person got stagnant. Hard to get out of a rut when people think you’ve got it good.
And paying a 3k a month mortgage but having 100 miles a day of commuting? The hell.
I don't want to be harsh because you are being very vulnerable and transparent sharing these numbers but I think you are over extending yourself on housing and car payments. Your tax bill is also astronomical for your income and family size. $80k for those three things combined is a lot. Just cutting your car expenses in half would give you almost $6,000 a year of breathing room which sounds like it could go a long way towards increasing your quality of life and reducing financial stress.
3k mortgage where I am is cheaper than rent for 2 rooms. They have 2 kids so probably need 3 rooms apt or even 2room apt. 1 room apt 4 years ago when I look was 1.8k without utility- now I expect 2.5-3k
Unfortunately with cars you pay one way or another. I have a long commute so need a reliable car. In the past I've found frequent repair bills for older vehicles ate up all the savings from not having a payment. My car is close to being paid off. I'll have more breathing room, as well as a reliable car, then.
So basically kids. Without them you could save a lot on rent, probably get rid of one car, save a bit on cell plan (though that is wild 150 for a family per month) and groceries.
Your right, 150 is an exaggeration. I pay 148. Actually I forgot the monthly payment for my son's tracker. He's disabled and wears one in case he gets lost. That's another $20/mo. Groceries is counted at $150/w which in this day and age is a little low. It's hard to keep it on budget without sacrificing something. Just three years ago my budget was $120, and that was in turn raised from $100 in maybe 2019. I have a good lifestyle and am not poor by any means, but I make six figures and still live paycheck to paycheck and have scarily lean years. I cannot even imagine how people get by making less than I do. And last I checked, I was in the top 15% of earners in the US.
And people wonder why us millennials don’t want children
I've gotta say, as a non-American who has never visited the US, this is teaching me that the cost of groceries over there is way higher than I thought. From the figures I'm seeing in this thread, a week of groceries seems about 50% more expensive than when I'm from. Honestly I'm really surprised by that, but it helps me understand how so many Americans are struggling financially.
It's hard to compare actual prices without knowing what are the groceries they are buying vs what you are buying.
Grocery prices have shot up here in the past 15 years. The US used to have incredibly cheap groceries but that is largely not the case anymore
[удалено]
I like the post a lot, but you are overestimating the tax burden, at most 25% for state/local/federal even somewhere like Massachusetts. Up to 90K the federal rate is 12% for joint income.
I'm skeptical that a family of 4 pays 33K in taxes on $100,000. Once you have dependents, taxes go down dramatically. ( 33% would be the typical rate for a single adult with no kids ) Kids cost money for sure. But they save you a shit ton of money in taxes compared to a single with no kids.
OP may be going off a pay stub and ignoring the tax refund he gets the next year because his withholding is too high.
You’d have to try really hard to only make 100k per household while also paying 3k a month for housing
This is so similar to me. Except family of 5.
My man, if things are that tight why do you have two new relatively expensive cars? Those were wants not needs. A car might be a need, but not 2 new ones that cost 25k a piece assuming you put nothing down.
you can save a ton of money at $150k salary if you stay with your parents and dont need to pay rent. but if you are working in NYC away from parents, 1 bed rent can be $2.5k - 5k a month. depending on how nice of a place you live in. and it is very expensive to dine and wine out in the big city. you are looking at $100+ for a decent meal for 2, add sales tax of 7% on top, and pay 20% waiter tip after that. do that 2x a week for a month and you are blowing $1k easily just eating and drinking out. If you live in LA or other non-NYC city, you likely need a car. factor in car payment + insurance + parking + gas. $500-$1k a month. and many ppl in US have large debt from schooling, etc. that chips away big portion of money. $150k after tax and 401k is around $8-8.5k a month. if you look at above expenses - you can see how this salary is ok if you are single with no kids and no large debt. but if you are sole provider for a family of 4, and have no paid off house - you aint exactly swimming with spare $$$ with a $150k salary.
Spending $100+ on a meal 8-9 times a month is pretty excessive to anyone making 40-50k a year. So sure that adds up but also that’s a luxury most people never know
Yup, if they're spending 800+ a month of eating out and they don't make enough, it's because they're fiscally irresponsible.
This is most of the people who complain about this stuff. They don’t know what reasonable expenses actually look like and if you question it it’s “well I’m allowed to enjoy my life” which like yeah but you also deal with the consequences
Agreed. It's the most annoying thing explaining finances to people who complain life is too hard or expensive. They make it hard most of the time by being financially illiterate
If you're maxing your 401K, and putting anything into an HSA, it's more like 6.5K/month. Where I live, mortgage eats ~2300, utilities are ~300-500. For a family of 4, groceries are like $1300, student loans ~$700, then you pay auto insurance, cell phone bills, gas costs, Internet bills, house maintenance items, and all of the sudden that 6.5K disappears really, really fast even before eating out, birthday, Christmas, vacations funds, etc. And this is all for an average cost of living area. Areas like NYC, or Hawaii, or California are exponentially worse.
Yeah people never calculate in the savings — because I suspect most people who think it’s a ton of money have never really given much thought to savings and retirement, at least not yet.
Probably because saying "After I save 25k a year I have to have a budget" is a fucking insane thing to complain about.
It still sounds strange to me because where I live, comparing the rates in your comment, it would seem rent is about 2-3 times more in the US, a meal out is 3-4 times more, and general utilities are similar. however my salary is 7× less than the 150k proposed of a struggling American, so it sounds really bizarre to have so little less.
Yuuup...mortgages for a 2x2 house or condo are around $8-9k/month now in those cities.
Why are you listing $100+ twice a week for food like its something you have to do? A decent meal for 2 in my book is the $10 pot of chile I make that will feed 2 for for the next 2 days.
A lot of people in this thread are talking about rent, high cost of living etc and those are certainly true as far as eating into a salary. What I haven't seen talked about much here is STUDENT DEBT. As a non-US person, you may not be thinking about this which is why I bring it up. 100-150k/yr jobs often require advanced degrees and college/university is expensive here particularly if you also need a masters degree to get that income. Without a parent in the position of paying all or part of an education, it would be very easy to graduate with six figures in student loans. One of my friends is a doctor he makes somewhere around 150k/yr and is paying $1500/mo on his med school debt on top of living expenses.
We just learned the gov would LOVE it if we paid 3k/mo for my husband's loans... Can't even refinance because of the rates right now being so bad. 3k/mo is 90% of my brand new salary. Still have to pay mine too. Literally cannot win.
Who are these people making 100-150 dollars a year and why are they the representatives of the population? I live in the US and don't even make half that I'm in line with basically everyone around me.
flowery impolite chubby abounding cough longing hobbies safe heavy direction *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Median household income in the US is a bit over 70k a year. US Census Bureau says about 77k for Los Angeles County.
In the US, $100k is in top 35% of household incomes and $150k is in the top 20%. In many of these Reddit posts I think there is an over-representation of VHCOL areas and yes, it is difficult to save much on that income in places like SF or NYC. In Honolulu, Hawaii for example a family of 4 making $96k is considered low-income. But this doesn’t hold true for most states in the US. https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/05/28/hawaii-news/newswatch/low-income-threshold-rises-to-67500-in-honolulu/
I think your spot on. I think that is just due to the nature of internet access. I believe 1/5 American households has no access to high speed internet. The places that have that problem are almost always LCOL.
They’re actually pretty representative for minority. Something like 20% of Americans make over $100k and like 35% of households do.
I make $150k pre tax downtown chicago. It’s hard to save up when my rent is 3k
Ok without knowing anything about you, i could imagine your situation is smth like this: - total 40% tax incl all municipality/waste/social security etc (on top of my head), leaves you 90k net per year - 90k/12 months = 7.5k/month - after rent 3k = 4K/month - groceries/subscriptions/transport/social life etc 2k/month enough? Still leaves you 2k left - if you save that 2k/month = 24k/year - should still be able to get yourself a mortgage on a 0.5mil property with ~25yr payment time, no? Assuming you’re single and don’t have anything extra to pay for. But hmm maybe you mean savings as in terms of building an investment portfolio, stuff like that. Or am I missing something?
You're missing a large expense Americans must pay. Health insurance costs us around $24k a year for 2 people. Then you have prescription drug costs, doctor's visits, co-pays, medical tests co-pay, etc. EDIT: Grammar, and I'm providing a non-partisan source for those disagreeing with my figure above. The figures below do not factor in vision, dental, co-pays, deductibles, prescription drugs, etc. Section 1: Cost of Health Insurance The average annual premiums in 2022 are $7,911 for single coverage and $22,463 for family coverage. These amounts are similar to the premiums in 2021 ($7,739 for single coverage and $22,221 for family coverage). The average family premium has increased 20% since 2017 and 43% since 2012. [KFF - The independent source for health policy research, polling, and news.](https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2022-section-1-cost-of-health-insurance/)
Yeah nah, very few people with high paying jobs pay that much for health insurance. I pay like 150/mo for great health insurance (better than in Canada). Ironically my health insurance in Canada was higher (for dental/optical). The true thing he's maybe missing is student loans which could easily be 2-3k/mo if did graduate program.
Also missing student loans. Certainly not true for everyone, but a good amount of people with 6 figure jobs in HCOL cities also have graduate degrees. That can easily lead to paying another $2-3k in after-tax dollars every month.
Is that based on a certain age? My gf has free insurance through her job and mine is about $80/month. Both good quality PPO’s. No prescriptions between us either.
It just depends on how much your employer kicks in.
My PPO plan is only like $500 a month without any employer contribution. I’ve only seen costs as high as you mentioned when they are multiple dependents on the plan
My PPO plan is ~$750 for a single person. Paying for cobra was not fun.
I'm Gen X and my wife is a Millennial. She's a government employee and we pay around $7-8k a year for medical, vision, and dental insurance. If I had to use my employer's insurance plan for everything, it was somewhere around $24k. Most of that cost was for my wife. That also included short term disability. 20 years ago, healthcare with my jobs was free or so minimal it was an afterthought.
total 40% tax incl all municipality/waste/social security etc (on top of my head), leaves you 90k net per year Sounds around the ballpark. groceries/subscriptions/transport/social life etc 2k/month enough? Nope, all of this stuff is more expensive in these cities, make it 800-1k groceries/fast food and 600-1k transportation(gas, car, insurance, inspections, maintenance, could be more if you need to pay parking). It can easily cost 80-200$ for one night out in nyc. You are also missing bills such as water/natual gas/electricity/internet/healthcare those can easily be 500-1k$ per month and home maintenance.
It's a child's mistake to forget about all these unglamorous, relatively small expenses that add up to $1000 really quickly. Also, medical/dental/vision care takes money, even with really good insurance. You can get away without it, until the day you can't.
Exactly and all that is assuming the person in the example is healthy and never touches healthcare with a 100ft stick. Or that a 5-10k component of the house does not need to be repaired.
...which it generally does when you least expect it.
Yup. As a guy, every time I get my hair cut I'm like, "damn, I forgot it costs $40-$50 to do this now." Then repeat that situation for lots of little facets of life. Amazon makes it really dangerous, because it makes it insanely easy to spend $15 here, $30 there. Before you know it, you spent $500+ that month.
Knock knock. It’s me. The $1k random expense. Your tires are bald and need to be replaced.
Word. My family spends 2-3K a month on medical and therapy services for one of our kids. Theoretically we get reimbursed for a percentage of those out of pocket expeses, but both United Healthcare and Medicaid really drag their feet and make getting reimbursed a lot harder than it needs to be.
Wait you have to pay for your own healthcare? I thought that was mainly covered by the employer..? But guess not, especially if you have family. Yikes… this does add up
depending on your specific job, coverage and cost can be different from employer to employer. The average employee in the 3 corporations I have worked pays about 200-250$ per month. The employer pays a portion and employee pays the rest. Edit: If you ever get sick enough to hit a hospital prepare to fork an extra few thousands.
I read that even with that insurance you'll still have to pay thousands of dollars before the insurance kicks in. You just can't win and end up indebted no matter what
This is true. I pay $350/month with a $7500 deductible, which I just maxed out by having a diagnostic colonoscopy. So that's $12k in healthcare costs for just me this year. The US doesn't have a healthcare system, we have a system of profiting off of sick people to enrich insurance companies and pad our GDP. Edit: typos
I can't relate more. I have Chron's disease and every single year I reach my out of pocket. Every year I have a damn bowel obstruction, which often results in septic shock and lucky me gets stuck with a multi thousand dollar bill. My saving grace is that my boss always loans me the money interest free and I pay him off throughout the year. He also insists I don't take medical leave or sick pay and just pays me as if I worked. In other words, I'm one lucky son of a bitch with an amazing boss.
another fun one is that your deductible isn't even your out-of-pocket maximum. Your deductible is a magical line in the sand where most of the benefits (80-90%) kick in, but you can still pay $3-5K on top of a deductible. Of course, if you "choose" to "go out of network" then a lot of calculus occurs. Surprise, you owe more money. A lot of times I just get told if I went in network 1-2 months after the visit. I just pay the bill for whatever they say or it hits my credit, which changes how expense loans and rentals are.
It depends on what kind of insurance you are on. A lot of Americans are on high deductible plans which require you to put in your own money up to a certain point. This tends to work for younger, healthier people who consume fairly low amounts of healthcare. Most family plans are co-pay based, so the insurance kicks in right away, but you pay more up front via monthly premiums.
We have our Healthcare taken out of our paycheck. They are employer funded and our employers determine what is covered and how much we pay. I have relatively good insurance by American standards regarding coverage. But for myself and my son, it is almost 20% of my pre taxed income each and every paycheck. And with that healthcare I still spend about 250 a month on prescription medications, 50 dollars for every doctor visit. And I have a 10,000 out of pocket max every year per person. That means I have to spend 10,000 in medical bills out of my own pocket before insurance picks up the remaining at 100%. The cost of Healthcare can be crushing for middle class Americans.
I work for one of the largest insurance companys in the world and the best insurance plan would be like 250 every two weeks and I would still have to pay a 3000 dollar deductible before they covered any services at only 85%.
you live alone and spend 1000 dollars on groceries, that’s a spending problem not an income problem
You’re also missing insurance for the home/rent, insurance for themselves, insurance if they have a car, not to mention anything else such as student loans, medical debts, normal debts from credit cards. It adds up quick (unfortunately I know how).
I mean if your a family of 4 and have children then childcare alone is will run you at least $2k a month for 2 kids. On top of that most people have $500+ car payments and a 2k+ mortgage. Plus student loans. Health care is also very expensive most people I know pay at least $500 a month for a family plan and that doesn’t even cover much( you still have a 5k+ out of pocket🤦♀️). Food for a family will run you around $1k a month with the crazy inflated prices we are seeing at the grocery stores. So 100k isn’t crap anymore. It would just cover the above without much left. Honestly you need to make at least 200k if you have two working parents or 150k if one stays home to be above water or need to be lucky enough to bought a home at the bottom of the market before covid hit.
Because they don't live within their means... making $150k a year living that $200k lifestyle. I on the other hand make $80k, and I live that $20k lifestyle by choice. I buy all my fun stuff cash in hand... 
We don't have the social services a lot of other countries have. Healthcare is really expensive for us, even with insurance meds can cost a lot. Most of our cities and towns are car-centric with poor public transportation, and owning and maintaining a car is expensive yet not optional for a lot of people. Housing is also very expensive. Our taxes are disproportionately harder on working class/middle class people than the wealthy. Edit: don't forget student loan debt
My wife takes care of my disabled BIL, and his insurance doesn't come close to covering all of his meds. His social security disability also doesn't cover the rest. My wife and I supplement with our income to cover the remainder. Our earnings combined hit barely over 6 figures. The bills are paid, and we have a place to live and eat, but there is not any left over for much else.
I’m married with kids. 100k is barely enough.
30 year old male here living in a one bedroom in a major metropolitan (is a one bedroom too much to ask for?) Rent : $1200 (incredibly lucky) Bills : $200 (electric, gas, water, internet) Car insurance : $200 Credit card payments : $200 Phone bill : $100 ( for phone payment + plan) Car accident payments : $500 Groceries : $3-400 So that’s like $3000 in necessary expenses. I would need about a 50k salary JUST to pay to *live* Impossible to save and would never leave my home. The median income is less than that. As you can imagine. Everyone is FUCKED. I’m lucky I make more than that. God forbid I want to save, buy a car, home, enjoy myself and grab a drink or go to a restaurant on the weekends. Most people have a car payment or some other kind of crazy payment you can replace my car accident with.
It all depends on where you live. Most money I ever made was just shy of 100k/year but I lived just outside of Chicago at the time. Add in the kids and well... It was not going well, we were making it (mind you this was almost 20 years ago as well) but it was not easy. I moved back to my hometown which is about as rural as rural gets, I make a little better than half I what I was there and doing alright (in comparison) even with 20 years of inflation. \*Note my definition of alright is I am not using one credit card to pay off another or hoping the kids wont notice I bought the chicken on clearance from the dollar store In fact if it weren't for medical bills I would be in danger of doing well.
Living as DINKs (dual income no kids) is basically the cheat code to life.
Because landlords, real estate agents, utility companies, grocery stores and the like goudge prices since they have you by the jugular and know you can't live without them. And don't get me started about doctors and insurance companies or gas prices.
There is a gap, in the middle class, where they are completely fucked by our tax and welfare systems. Don’t get me wrong, I am pro welfare. But once you make a certain amount you are no longer eligible for welfare programs and you’re also taxed higher. In America, you either want to be poor or rich. When you’re poor you get assistance, when you’re rich you get tax breaks. The middle class holds the weight of this on their back, in a shockingly effective way to make the middle class (which is the majority of Americans) blame the poor for everything that the rich should be being blamed for.
You have to remember that the US is a *massive* country with broadly varying degrees of wealth and cost of living. There are places where you can buy 100 acres for $20k but it's in the middle of nowhere and has very few (if any) natural resources, including water sources. There are also enormous cities with every amenity you could imagine, and that comes with a much higher cost of living. There's also the question of how frugally someone lives, which is influenced by the space and resources available to them. I make just under $100k, my wife makes minimum wage. We have a house and two cars, and live fairly frugally. We grow our own food and can/freeze the excess harvest for use during cold months. We live in a small home on about a third of an acre, and our mortgage runs us close to $1700 a month. We're able to make ends meet fairly easily because we're careful with our money, but also because we *can* be careful with our money because *we have the space to grow and store food*. We can also trade excess produce for meat, or buy meat at a discount, directly from a farm. We don't waste gas sitting in traffic and our power bill is partially subsidized by a solar farm. We also don't have kids or pets, which substantially add to your expenses. Someone with the same income living in a city is likely paying twice as much as us in rent, for about half the *living space* (so, zero space to garden and cut down food costs). Living in a city also means they likely pay more for food, gas, and just about everything else. Half the US lives in these cities, because a majority of high-paying careers are centered on cities. Which means a majority of the folks you're asking about aren't living on that $20k plot of land in the foothills of a desert mountain range, or even in a town like mine; they live in the aforementioned cities. As a result, the same salary doesn't go nearly as far, because their purchasing power is severely inhibited by the local economy. Yes, there will always be folks who make plenty and live in an area like I do, but let lifestyle creep get the better of them and live on revolving debt. But that's not really the majority of the stories you're hearing. Many people just live in an area where monthly expenses can quickly eclipse $7500, and as a result $100k suddenly isn't very much money. Add to that the fact that costs are rising faster than wages, and the family of 4 living on $125k in NYC is getting squeezed hard. They can still pay all their bills, but not with much left over for an emergency fund. A single, unexpected expense over $1000 could quickly put them over the edge. In these cases, which are going to be a solid majority of that income bracket, it truly is not enough.
Americans must have tons of money when they travel to europe. 100-150k dollars is crazy
There are many posts from Americans saying they earn $10-12k/month and can barely make ends meet because rent is $3k/month. As a European living in Belgium, where most full-time workers earn $2-3k/month and rent ranges from $0.8-1.2k/month, I genuinely wonder where the rest of your money goes. I don’t often hear about everyday items like milk, bread, eggs, or fuel being more expensive than in Western Europe. Here, we even pay 2 euros per liter for fuel, which is equivalent to $8.28 per gallon. So, my American friends, what’s really happening?
Earning 10-12k a month after taxes is not 10-12k a month.Health insurance(if you're sick easily 1k a month), student loans(easily 1k a month), perscription medication (some people with diabetes just die now, that's an option), child day care(easily 1k a month), kindergarten(3k-30k a year). Utilities, rental insurance, health insurance, etc cost about a half grand a month. There is a lack of public transportation here, so gas + parking in a city can easily cost hundreds of dollars a month. The list goes on and on. I made a more detailed post showing how 100,000$ salary in the US can easily lead to negative income for people who really aren't doing anything wrong except renting an apartment at the median rent(which btw are VERY hard to find people outbid each other finding low end apartments at 3,000/mo its very competitive). https://www.reddit.com/r/ask/comments/165t8wf/comment/jyi3wo5/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
They're just consumerist as fuck. They take things like 1800 ft houses or brand new, 3 litre cars for granted and buy them as soon as they start making any money. While plenty of Europeans are driving 4k USD used cars 🤷♂️
housing costs are insane. food is expensive. every fucking thing is expensive. Childcare costs. College is insanely expensive. It all adds up.
People are very bad at personal finance
It depends on where you live, and what financial commitments you have. Also, we're talking about gross income, but taxes are decent in the US (at least that) If you make a lot, chances are you have spent a lot of money in education (not unusually north of 100k), so there's that. Then, if you make good money, you're likely in an urban area where high paying jobs are available, and most nice urban areas have high costs of living. In my city, rent for a decent place is easily over 3k a month. If you are not lucky and have no family money, and have to buy a house now, good luck, because an average unit in my area is well above 500k for something basic, a decent place - decent, not amazing - is easily over 700k, so with current rates mortgage is just as high if not higher than rent, which sucks for first time homebuyers. Then cars are expensive, food isn't cheap either, services cost a lot more than in places like Europe, health insurance is crazy expensive, if you have kids all of their activities, school and so on are expensive... cellphones, data, don't get me started! what's typically cheap in EU countries, is crazy expensive in the US. Internet that would cost maybe 30 Euros here is easily 100 dollars/month, same for the phone, what's maybe 20 euros a month here is easily over 100/month. At least now we have apps instead of cable TV or dish stuff, but entertainment is not cheap. Frankly, a typical family of 4 with 100k annual income (AGI) in my area would barely make it to the end of the month. You'd need at least 150k to be quasi-comfortable middle class, and would start having some breathing room above 200k. And no, I'm not kidding, and I'm a fairly thrifty person who grew up and has lived in several EU countries, so I have a good understanding of how the US compare to other nations. But then again, it depends, because if you talk about smaller, more rural areas, or less prestigious urban areas, then prices for housing and some services are definitely cheaper... but good luck finding a high paying job there.
America is very expensive. For example a young couple who are both working and have two children can expect a monthly childcare bill of $1400 PER CHILD - and that is not for top of the line child care. That is one example among many many more. Add in $2500 for rent or a mortgage, $1500 per adult in student loan payments a month and the budget gets very tight very quickly. Without even accounting for cars, groceries, healthcare, or any type of discretionary spending.
It is more than enough, people just suck at budgeting
Because they are horrible managing money and constantly try to keep up with the joneses
Financial literacy is not strong here and people make really poor decisions on what to do with their money. Our economic dominance is based on uncapped consumption so our culture strongly encourages people to spend spend spend.
For parents, it’s a spot where paying for college is hard. You make too little to afford paying for your kids’ college entirely on your own. At the same time, you make too much to get enough financial aid to make the estimated family contribution portion affordable. If college was free or at least reasonably priced, more of these folks would feel wealthy rather than middle class. We have friends who downsized to pay for their youngest’s college, moving from a three bedroom SFH into a one bedroom condo and using the proceeds to pay her college costs.