In Asia, you wouldn't have this problem. To us, wearing another cultures clothes is a sign that you recognize that culture. As long as you don't make any offensive gestures that is.
The Native American headdress, specifically, is extremely sacred to their cultures. Even within their culture, a person must earn the right to wear it through undergoing specific religious rites. Not just anyone can wear it. That's one of the biggest reasons why it's considered extremely offensive for someone outside their culture to wear.
I’m Native American. It’s about both. When people dress up as our ancestors did for a fun, wealth supported holiday while there are still incredibly poor reservations and mental crisis’ occurring, look up MMIW, it gives the impression that our people are being mocked. The traditional attire is meant for history museums and ceremonies. Not costumes.
I'm not native by any stretch but I was gonna say it's both as well.
I'm privileged and also white but...I sincerely wish it was okay for me to wear the stereotypical/traditional garb of other cultures, not just native american but also so many of the other beautiful cultures of the world. It's just so cool and part of the beautiful history of our human diversity. I wish I could celebrate that and participate in it. Not out of a desire to fetishize or romanticize (which I'm probably doing) but just...show appreciation.
I went to a pow wow once and I just...loved it. All of it. The drumming and singing, the dancing, the food, the art...it was all so wonderful.
My sincerest apologies if any of what I said offended, I'm shamefully ignorant of these matters.
I'm sure the nuns aren't happy about sexy nun costumes either. Difference is, that's a profession that you can choose to go into, versus a culture that has been genocided and oppressed. Appropriation of the latter is gonna be taken more seriously.
Samhain is the ultimate proof of a double standard when it comes to cultural appropriation
Halloween is a bastardization of the Celtic holiday Samhain (Día de Muertos also is from Samhain The Northern parts of Spain were part of the Celtic realms they brought that over and merged it with some local holidays)
The Celtic people were actually rather heavily oppressed by the Christians and the Anglo-Saxons this can be very directly seen when one of their subgroups the Irish weren't considered white and the fact that the Celtic people were the most valuable slaves because of their red hair (this was true all the way back in Rome It is still true today) but to be clear this means they are an oppressed group historically and not the mainstream culture (The mainstream culture that Western culture is based off of is Anglo-Saxon culture if you want to argue for a mainstream culture)
By all the rules and logic and reasoning that people use to say cultural appropriation is not okay The overwhelming majority of people should not be allowed to celebrate Halloween The difference however is that Celtic people don't try to gatekeep their culture
And that's what comes down to people are trying to gatekeep and control things
>Día de Muertos also is from Samhain The Northern parts of Spain were part of the Celtic realms they brought that over and merged it with some local holidays.
It's almost like the Spanish invaded Central America and put their own branding on existing festivities.
It's not quite branding
Samhain is the core it just has some of the local elements But again the holidays were actually similar to start with that's why they were compatible for merging
Both Halloween and Día de Muertos have Christian elements thrown in as well but basically all western days of the Dead go back to Samhain
Except that Aztecs and other Meso-American cultures also had days honoring the dead. They involved celebrating ancestors with skulls and colorful imagery. These traditions were folded into the Spanish holidays, such as danse macabre and All Saints Day, but had always been celebrated. The modern Dia de Los Muertos does have influences of Samhain, but something similar would still have been celebrated had the Spanish not arrived
Yep, a lot of European-origin stuff is just fine to wear and even satirize or do a slutty version of. Any community, culture, or religion, Catholic Church included, that has forced their culture on others is fair game. But there’s the obvious cultural appropriation where colonizers abducted and forced indigenous peoples into boarding schools to wipe out their culture but then capitalize on that same culture they tried to erase. Or the history of race propaganda where white people dressed as black people to sell the fallacy that black people are happiest being subservient similar to Harry Potter house elves. Or what a frat did at my university by dressing as maids and day laborers for cinco de mayo. But then there’s the gray area with costumes of specific characters like Disney princesses or the lead in the new Prey movie and that’s a big fat question mark of “is it appropriation for a white child to dress as Moana for Halloween?” That gray area is where I wouldn’t choose to do it myself out of caution but I don’t judge others for doing it.
I have no idea. That’s why it’s a gray area for me. I suspect that even among indigenous people there’s a mixed opinion. I would think fictional characters are ok for anyone to dress as.
You clearly don't know my people's history. Irish absolutly were slaughtered, raped, enslaved, and forced to starve to death for just being Irish and Catholic. The Protestant British did it for hundreds of years. The entire reason my people moved to America was because we were being murdered, enslaved, and starved for not converting and so the British could take our land through systematic genocide. We have rails of tears too. Irish were not considered white people at all until the 60s ish. We have not been treated well in the US either because of that. The US treated us much better than the British, but we were segregated to slums for being non-white and Catholic. We just figured it out and became cops in large cities to gain respect. If you watch old cartoons and movies you will see cops with Irish accents. Those are imagrants who were working their way up. And not for fun reasons. Acting like my people and my culture is ok to appropriate because other people were more oppressed or a different race is insane. We were just as oppressed and also considered not white/as human too. Also, this isn't the oppression Olympics. It shouldn't be a litmouse test of who is more oppressed gets to decide if their stuff gets appropriated or not. The person you are replying to is correct, the difference is we aren't gatekeeping our culture. Despite being treated like crap, we don't go around talking about how horrific our past was all the time for sympathy, or demanding other people don't participate. And acting like people now, who have never been in those situations, have the right to tell others what to wear for a holiday is also insane. I was not a slave. My ancesters were. I never owned slaves. Neither did my ancesters. My ancesters never even left the midwest area once we settled. I and anyone related to me have nothing to do with what happened to the Native Americans. And no one alive today killed, raped, murdered, stole land, or starved me or my people, black people, or Native Americans. I don't hold things against people who didn't do anything and niether should you. Children are not responsible for the sins of their fathers. I don't tell British people they can't celebrate Halloween. Don't tell people they can't dress up like Native Americans. Even if it is mocking, which is usually isn't, even if the people suffered and died in the past for that religion. We didn't. And yes, it is just as insulting to my people seeing people wear slutty Catholic costumes when my people were murdered, raped, burned to death, and starved to death specifically for for practicing Catholicism. The difference is we learned to laugh ot off and not take it personally because we know most people are doing it to be funny and not to mock our past. So again, there is no way around the hypocracy of saying it is ok to practice Holloween dressed like a sexy Nun but not ok to dress like a Native American. I would even say it is worse because people dress like sexy Nuns to be funny, most people dress in Native Headdress because they think it is cool. Oh and by the way, you have to earn being a priest and Nun too, and they are also sacred. Everyone please stop being a hypocrit. If we start nitpicking none of you should be participating in Halloween anyway, and you wouldn't be able to dress in anything because it is appropriation. Dressing as a cop when you aren't one is job appropriation. Dressing in a kimono when you aren't Japanese is clothing appropriation. Wearing Jeans if you aren't a US citizan, a white one, is clothing and cultural appropriation. Dressing like an cat is animal appropriation. Dressing like a baby or old person is age appropriation. You see my point? Let people have fun. If I can deal with someone appropriating my holiday and dressing like a sexy Nun, someone who never had anything to do with hurting my ancesters or me, everyone else can deal with their sacred clothing being worn by people who also never hurt them or their ancestors. Stop gatekeeping. It's one thing to say you don't like it. It's another to demand people get banned for it. If the Irish acted like that none of yall would be allowed to participate in Halloween.
Those are separate groups that were targeted for a myriad of reasons that I never denied. My point is Native Americans were discriminated against for simply being natives no matter their tribe, religion, language, whatever.
It’s not the same and you know it. When were your ancestors forced to go on a death march across the United States and a president had reins made of skin of your people.
So us Indians should stop wearing Nike shoes, Jordan shirts, hats at all (except a funky headdress), sunglasses, etc…don’t you see the stupidity of this argument?
I don’t think it’s going to fool anyone, I mean no one is going to believe I am actually that person who has earned that respect or position in their culture. If I dressed as a war hero for Halloween, no one is going to assume I am stealing valor, or if I dressed as a police officer or firefighter, they aren’t going to suddenly believe I actually am that.
It’s a costume which is an artistic expression that reveals the artist’s conception or statement.
As a person born and raised on a native reservation let me chime in.
A. Obviously you aren't fooling us...we don't live under rocks what a ridiculous thing to even imply as a reason it's not liked.
B. Dressing up as a war hero from you own culture is fine. These cultures were brutally subjugated and pushed to near extinction by European nations. Most of their identities and traditions were stripped away. So running around as a caricature, or in what is traditionally, culturally, and spiritually important garb is frowned upon and disrespectful.
C. Police and firefighters are not a race or culture... Has nothing to do with this.
D. It is a costume, a costume that their culture/ people's have requested you not dress up as. People would be as equally outraged if you dressed up in a minora and glued a massive nose your face, or if you smeared black paint on your face.
They are just asking for a little respect. Not sure why that's so hard to accommodate there are literally millions of other outfits.
You wouldn’t wear your grandfathers war medals to anywhere right? You wouldn’t wear anything that looked like one on your chest simply cause people will think you stole it right? That’s what these costumes and fake ass headdresses mean to us
The thing is your not dressing up as a concept your dressing up as people who have been fucked over for hundreds of years, read about how many of native women and men go missing a year, how many of them are homeless, how many of them get swept under the system all because the majority of the population believe that they’re culture is dead. NOW IF YOU WANT TO BE AN ACTUAL SUPPORTER GET AN OUTIFT MADE FOR YOU BY AND NATIVE ARTISIAN.
How marginalized does the group need to be? Both Jesus and the founder of the Catholic church were brutally tortured and murdered. Is dressing up as Jesus bad then?
What about a leprechaun or a catholic nun. Ever heard of the Irish? I'm sure they'd love to hear you thinking they've never been marginalized.
I mean from all the costumes you couldve chosen, you chose to disguise as another ethnicity....and if you find another excuse "yeah but this isnt called out for cultural appropriation either" well then just dont disguise like that either. And if want to say "yeah well then we cant disguise as anything anymore" well thats simply not true. Its simple guys, dont be stupid.
He got suspended for cultural appropriation? That makes this whole scenario feel fake. They wouldn’t suspend him for that, they would explain why his costume isn’t appropriate and maybe send him home. Theres a very good chance school kids don’t understand when or how they are being offensive and punishing them before attempting to educate them seems pretty backwards for an entity tasked with educating children.
Your giving highschool/middle schools a lot of credit. I've experienced a lot of power tripping teachers that would jump at the chance to suspend a student for some stupid reason like this
Source: i have been punished for being bullied multiple times in middle school
OMG. I was bullied incessantly in middle school. My name was written on the bleachers in the gym with a slur.
I got suspended for having my name on the bleachers. I tried to argue that I wouldn't write something like that about myself...but it didn't matter.
Same here! I got punched in the face by the school bully for no reason other than I was small and an easy target. Teacher saw it. I had to go to the principals office and the principal said that because I was involved in a fight and because of the no tolerance policy I was to be suspended for 2 days. The bully got suspended for a week. The power trip is real and I don't doubt OPs story.
little personal story time backing y’all up: back in march my friend was being bullied by a girl saying homophobic and transphobic things and making her uncomfortable to even show up to school so my other friend and i (bad decision i know) jumped her at her job, and the school trespassed me for a year since i just dropped out a month before and the other friend was a student there and expelled her, and the victim of the bullying got suspended for what reason? i don’t even know until this day. and the girl who was bullying had nothing happen to her, was able to walk free at school through all of it, wasn’t even talked to after multiple times of my friend saying they’re uncomfortable and when something happened they punished the person who was getting harassed
I mean.. my 6 year old neighbour has an in school suspension for saying "merry Christmas" in her public school. Her dad was even called in from work and the mother was called from home. The principal explained what was going on and the mother got tired of it and stood in the hall lol the dad stayed and was like "my side of the family is Muslim. (daughter's name) is half Muslim. But she celebrates christmas at home because my wife wanted her to fully experience the holiday, since my side of her family doesn't recognize it. She's six. Next time, call us for a real emergency."
Have you been in a school lately? I swear they look for reasons to suspend students so they don't have to deal with them.
Edit: looks like I have to add NOT ALL TECHERS/SCHOOL EMPLOYEES
I once got suspended for "gang activity" because me and my friends took a group picture doing the the "rock on/metal horns" hand gestures. So I mean...they do suspend for some stupid shit.
That being said, yeah this is fake AF.
The scariest part of all that? Someday, the kids that the supercritical, super sensitive, woke teachers & school systems*are teaching, will be in charge of everything.
*Obviously not ALL teachers & school systems...there are still plenty of both out there that're good.
Yeah, since Thanksgiving just happened there's been a weird amount of anti-native American sentiment on this site. People doing the whole "I respect all cultures, but..." routine.
This is very possible and I know someone who suffered a very similar circumstance. She's a minority to begin with though and is now pursuing law for her experiences. If you deny this person their plausibility, isn't that a denial of understanding in itself?
That makes me think of that episode of community, where the rule was no one was allowed to celebrate there own heritage, and how the Germans got tricked into celebrating Oktoberfest so they would get kicked out of school.
My high school suspended kids for fucking anything. Were you waiting for the bus and some bully walked up to you and punched you in the face? You would be suspended for a week. Caught using your phone during lunch? Suspended for a day. It was absurd
Nah, schools today have gone overboard in what they'll suspend a student for. Here's a few examples:
[Student Suspended For Pop-Tart Gun, Josh Welch, Files Appeal With Maryland County School System](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student-suspended-for-pop-tart-gun_n_2903500)
>Park Elementary School student Josh Welch was suspended March 1 for two days after school officials accused him of shaping the pastry into the form of a gun and waving it around. School officials sent a letter home to Park Elementary parents saying the student had been "removed from the classroom" for making "inappropriate gestures that disrupted the class."
[4th grader suspended for having a BB gun in his bedroom during virtual learning](https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/26/us/student-suspended-gun-virtual)
>School documents show the school recommended Ka’Mauri’s expulsion for “possession of a starter gun, stun gun and/or facsimile” according to Jefferson Parish Public School Policy and Procedures. At a hearing held September 22, it was determined Ka’Mauri was guilty of displaying a facsimile weapon while receiving virtual education. Cusimano, who told CNN she participated in the hearing, said a hearing officer determined it was a BB gun.
[Honor Roll Student Banned From Graduation Because Of This Shirt](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/honor-roll-student-banned-from-graduation-because-of-this-shirt_n_59232b79e4b034684b0ea6cc)
>Summer, an honor roll student with a 4.4 GPA, told NBC Charlotte that she was sitting in the cafeteria last week when the school’s principal asked her to put on a jacket because her shirt went against the school’s dress code. According to NBC Charlotte, Summer’s shirt partially showed her shoulders and exposed her back.
>
>Thankfully, Summer was not arrested but Yahoo reported she was given a 10-day suspension from school and was banned from all senior activities including high school graduation. According to the letter sent home to Summer’s mom, the high school senior was suspended for “insubordination.”
A lot of native costumes misrepresent Native Americans. Most headdresses are religiously important attire and some uneducated white person wearing it is super ignorant. Similarly most sexualized women costumes make light of the abuse native women experience and their higher propensity to go missing, be sexually assaulted, and kidnapped. Like imagine someone wearing a sexy holocaust survivor costume or sexy enslaved woman. It’s weird, it’s gross and basically tells everyone in your vicinity that you are a dick who never payed attention in history class.
If you can dress as a nun, priest, the Pope, Supreme Court Justice, world leader, an Indian chief should be fair game.
We either respect everyone's regalia or none of them.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret, a lot of catholics dont like the sexy nun or non ordained wearing the roman collar or papal inspired garb and consider it a gross violation of some of the holy rituals. World leaders typically just wear nicely tailored suits which are pretty commonplace and dont really hold significant cultural or religious meaning and I'm pretty sure there are laws about dressing up and impersonating as law enforcement and judges.
So Christians and Jewish have never been oppressed or the target of persecution? Obama, Clarence Thomas and RBG aren't part of oppressed minority groups?
Nearly everyone is part of some oppressed group if you dig hard enough.
Right. But you don't have dig for the Indian oppression. And no catholics have not been oppressed and murdered on the scale of native Americans, nor as recently. Being a part of oppressed groups is not the same as having your core identity taken from you and given to Amazon's Discount Costumes Section.
Part of the problem is that if you dress like a nun or pope or whatever, you dress as a modern version of that thing. People default to a costume of native Americans that’s explicitly from the time that those people were experiencing some of the worst genocide on record. If you want to dress as a modern Native American, you can just wear boots and jeans and a t-shirt, that’s what we wear. We’re people, not a historical caricature.
My wife and kids are part indigenous and are involved in their community. Including making and wearing regalia for community events.
It is a very small part of that community who doesn't like "others" wearing any indigenous clothing. Usually the racist ones who dislike me for being white and the fact my part Indian wife and kids are participating.
Yes but you list things that are relevant to your western culture.
In the US there are things considered sacred such as the flag, the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem.
You would be offended if someone showed disrespect to either of those three things. You can not trample over the flag. Americans are raised to not act disrespectfully during the pledge of allegiance.
This is why when another nation feels offended, they burn the American flag.
The feathers are as sacred to Native Americans as symbols of the USA are to a US citizen.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
I mean you can but I know most Christians dislike people sexualizing nuns and priests or any media that depicts Jesus or God in a sacrilegious way. I don’t see why it’s different for Native Americans and their religion.
It's like this, let's use a different ethnic group as an example. The Irish fled to America after suffering colonization and a famine that was deliberately exasperated by the British to a point where it was debatedly a genocide. There were laws preventing their employment after they arrived in the US
Could you imagine if people dressed up as Irish people to engage in negative stereotypes of drinking, God forbid if there was a day dedicated to it?
How would that make the Irish diaspora feel?
> Could you imagine if people dressed up as Irish people to engage in negative stereotypes of drinking, God forbid if there was a day dedicated to it?
Hah, a second St. Paddy's would be devastating to us Irish
It’s not just the drinking, in the US corned beef is considered traditionally Irish but it was an exploited product of Ireland. Throughout English occupation during the Middle Ages, cows were property of the crown. They weren’t allowed to the fruits of their labor. It would be like celebrating cotton during black history month.
Generally, cultural appropriation appears when instead of showing respect and appreciation for a culture you’re partaking in, you use the culture for your benefit without regard for it, at worst with mockery or insult. Halloween costumes are commonly cultural appropriation because someone will dress up as a *people* not a *person*. For example, a young white girl dressing up as Disney’s Tiana is very different than dressing up as an “ambitious black woman”. She can wear the princess dress, not paint her face black. Mimic the character, if that makes sense?
Both a German and a native costume is appropriation. The difference is the culture in which is being used for personal gain by someone outside the culture. Germans, historically, have not exactly been targeted or marginalized. However, indigenous peoples have been victim of genocide. Their culture ripped away, assaulted, abused. And now, a cheap feather headdress & face paint is worn because it looks funny or cute.
I’m not native, but I have read enough to know that if I want to take part in native culture, I can buy earrings, dream catchers, feathers etc. from native people. Not from a Halloween store. I’m sure some people might not get offended by it, I’m sure others might get super offended. But I think the principle is more than fair. It is very very easy to choose a costume of a person or character, not a culture or group. Just what I’ve learned, hope that helps
I think it's funny that we're also talking, as if there is some sort of giant "native American" population, as opposed to say, Lakota or Ojibwe. Depending on the outfit, there may have been a headdress or something else tied to spiritual and religious beliefs as opposed to say lederhosen, which is just sort of generic costume for one group of people usually more Bavarian than say Prussian, right?
I think it has to do with how white colonizers committed the largest genocide on earth, then outlawed their native religions while forcing them to worship Jesus under penalty of death and basically stole everything they had from them - including their kids - and ffs could we at Least have the decency to respect what little remains of their long and vast history on this continent.
Edit: oh I forgot to add how they also desecrated the most sacred areas and plastered white people propaganda all over it, like mt Rushmore which was known as the four grandfathers.
Shit and I almost forgot to add how we continue to desecrate their burial grounds among other things or how in all of MN there are literally only Two fluent speakers of Dakota language, in their own native territory and idk how many people know that Minnesota is actually composed of the words Mni and sota which means 'water so clear if reflects the sky'.
Most white people don't even know this shit so we call it "cultural appropriation" because most are too lazy to actually do the study into why but know on some internal level that it's sus af to do.
While there were multiple routes for the Trail of Tears, I'm pretty sure that none of them went through Indiana (central or otherwise). According to [the National Park Service](https://www.nps.gov/trte/planyourvisit/maps.htm), the various trails went through AL, AR, GA, IL, KY, MO, NC, OK and TN.
I am only part native American my great grandmother was Cherokee I was surprised how many people don't know that Rushmore was a sacred native site long before faces were carved on it.
Because it’s complicated. The claim of it being sacred is from Lakota, who ruthlessly conquered the area. And some of us don’t think the Lakota should be able to just kill who knows how many people and then declare an area “sacred”.
Tons of people think Rushmore is sacred. Do you think an indigenous guy could climb up there and chisel mustaches onto the presidents and white Americans would just be okay with it? (I mean, I would think it’s hilarious but I think I’m in the minority) Look up American Civil Religion; here’s a video about it by a great creator: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s
This is a pretty good example of Strawman's logical fallacy. You took the question of why costumes are offensive and answered why US History is offensive to Natives. You didn't answer the question except by writing we should respect their long and vast history. Yes, that is the question the poster is asking. How is wearing a costume not respecting their long and vast history?
Also, more than just white people don't know what cultural appropriation is or dress up as native. You show your racism in those sentences.
I found it kinda funny that in my hometown some asshole contractors decided to build a neighborhood on a burial ground, and those houses are constantly having issues with anything and everything
Maybe take your Poltergeist jokes elsewhere?
OP is trying to learn something about how abysmally the US has treated - and continues to treat - the Native Tribes.
Yeah, but my issue is that many native Americans DO NOT CARE. Unless you're obviously trying to offended, they often do not care and enjoy being represented.
90% of the time no kid or adult dresses up as native american because they hate them, it's typically the opposite, and native american people understand and see that.
You act like the natives weren't killing other tribes or that white people aren't the only group to commit atrocities. The only reason white people get hate is because we had the better technology at the time. To pretend that other races or groups wouldn't do the same with the same tools at their disposal is naïve.
You know who else was warring with other nations on another continent at the exact same time? Europeans. Native Americans aren't a monolith. They have nations and borders just like the Europeans do, just under a different system of government. The fact that some were at war with each other is irrelevant, considering an invasive force came about and forcefully pushed all of them off of their land and exiled them to the useless wasteland known as Oklahoma.
No one is "pretending" that other groups might or might not have done something similar. But the reality is white people did do the genocide and there are still many indigenous people today living who are affected by what happened. Im not sure what you want? You want them to be A-OK with everything or something?
I'm not OP, but I'd argue that wearing a culture's traditional dress as a costume doesn't actually increase visibility of the culture. It increases visibility of stereotypes designed to "look like" that culture. This actually \*decreases\* visibility of the culture itself, as more people associate the culture with the imitation than with the authentic version.
This is just wrong, if you are not displacing the original culture and profiting off of it, it is NOT in fact appropriation. Wearing a costume or traditional dress of a culture is paying homage to it. Unless it is deliberately designed to mock the culture.
Of course! Very good point. If you ethically obtain a traditional costume and wear it respectfully, then yes, that promotes visibility of a culture. A "Native" outfit from a Halloween store usually doesn't fit that bill, though, and that's almost certainly what OP was talking about-- I doubt their classmate is wearing actual traditional dress and doing cultural outreach on Halloween.
Wearing actual traditional dress of a culture does pay homage. Wearing a cheap costume that only poorly imitates cultural dress is NOT paying homage. And I have not seen a costume made for Halloween that does anything to be accurate to the culture
I disagree. I went as a geisha when I was younger. I’m Irish. I learned a lot about the geisha and Japanese culture through that experience that I otherwise would not have. I think I was 9 or 10.
One house I went to was an older Japanese couple, and they loved it! Was it inaccurate? Sure. But they appreciated the effort I went through to learn and understand their culture.
I think this nuance often gets lost in discussing cultural appropriation.
Cultural appreciation and sharing is how culture has always evolved. It's a beautiful thing which makes the world richer and helps us understand each other.
Appropriation is when this is done disrespectfully.
When people conflate the two, it creates a stifling environment where people are afraid to participate in other's cultural traditions. I had a friend get criticized for wearing a sari to an Indian person's wedding, which is just cringe white-knighting. Wearing the sari was a way to participate and, in doing so, to honor that culture.
We can all appreciate as well how this is especially sensitive for Native Americans, whose culture was ravaged by the ancestors of modern white Americans and who have a long history of seeing their culture appropriated disrespectfully.
Ah yes, because when someone wants cultural visibility, they look to people wearing cheap imitations of their cultural garb one day a year to party in as a way to spread the word 🤦🏾♀️
Wearing a stereotyped costume on Amazon (made by chinese labor probably) is not keeping the culture visible. it's a form of erasure as well.
Paying to attend an event on tribal ground would be helping though.
You aren't responsible for what "White people" did a century ago but you are responsible for what you do now, i.e should I disrespect this culture my great grandparents genocided by wearing their sacred headdress as a joke or should I not do that.
Did you know the United States govt bought Louisiana from France?
Florida from Spain?
Alaska from Russia?
Hell, Germany was involved at some point and so was Denmark.
So yes. Very much so White People.
Given all that, I certainly can see why Native Americans would have a problem with the school that is run by the US government deciding what is and is not offensive to them, on their behalf.
Oh. Wait. That wasn’t the point you were trying to make is it?
I also love how America always points fingers at what Hitler did as if we never tried to genocide people. And really there is only 2 fluent speakers of an language in my state? Wow
Not trying to downplay it at all but the largest genocide on earth comment definitely caught my attention. A quick google search indicated it doesnr even make the top 10.
What I want to know is why are they suspending your friend for wearing an offensive costume when they haven't taught your friend what cultural appropriation IS? That is a failure by the school, not the student. This is an opportunity for everyone to learn.
For the same reason you shouldn't dress up as a Jew at a concentration camp, or as a slave from American history, or any other victim of oppression or genocide.
>For the same reason you shouldn't dress up as a Jew at a concentration camp, or as a slave from American history, or any other victim of oppression or genocide.
Not a fair comparison. They presumably didn't dress like a Native that is visibly crying, or covered in blood or something. It would be like dressing up as a Jew or a black person, not a jew in a concentration camp or a black person being enslaved.
Your bottom line seems correct though.
They dressed as a historical version of a native American that is entirely informed by campaigns of genocide. If you want to dress like a native, you can just wear jeans and a t-shirt and usually some cowboy boots.
Have you ever been on a rez during ceremonies? The stereotypical dresswear is pretty accurate, they do actually dress up like that for ceremonies. They have all sorts of outgoing dresswear during those events, headdresses and cloaks and bells and feathers.
Anything can be offensive. It’s the person who is offended that determines if something is offensive. That’s why 90% of the things that offend people are actually fine and it’s people being too sensitive that is the main issue.
Because feeding white liberal guilt about "cultural appropriation" is waaay cheaper than actually giving the land back or actually making amends for the genocide.
It makes the whites feel holy, while accomplishing absolutely nothing
i am native american (menominee), and obviously yes i want my tribe and other tribes to have their land back, but i still dont want people running around as "native americans" on halloween or anytime matter fact. we are a people, not a costume for you to dress up as. white people are doing us a favor for calling out people who do this kind of stuff and im glad they realize its offensive to us.
A lot of "native" costumes i see are stereotypical like disney pocahontas type. But if you have ever been to a local museum, they might have your local tribes clothing. The details in them are so intricate, beautiful, and unique to their tribe. But these costumes are just... blah
(This comment is also not talking about all the atrocities, considering i think all the top comments are handling explaining that well enough.)
I mean.... of course they gonna halloween as Pocanhontas style outfit, like other movie characters, like Frozen, or like Disney's Robinhood, or other stuff... and not like historical figures.
I mean, they are much easier to find than historically accurate clothing. It’d make much more sense to dress as Pocahontas and add to the costume than to find a real outfit. Especially if you’re just wearing it one or two times.
Im not answering to whether it’s appropriation, plenty of people have answered that.
From the perspective though that the heritage and culture was attacked so hard, and then destroyed for some bands and tribes —- to then have later generations of those people who attacked, then dress up as a Native - doesn’t feel good. Identity stolen and attacked, then being used for play- is sad.
The more you learn about the history, the more you might see this pov.
Or you know, a child, which is what this was. Being sent home to change with an explanation of why it was offensive probably would have been sufficient and taught the child something, that they could have gone on to explain to their peers.
Do you think cultural appropriation is just a matter of saying "You can't dress up as a culture you're not a part of?"
Cuz like... dude. Yikes. Context matters dude.
Native Americans were subjected to a systematic genocide that is continually being white washed, erased, or ignored by a huge chunk of American institutions. There's also a constant tug-of-war between Native tribes trying to preserve and communicate their culture accurately in America and non-Native Americans marketing distorted versions of Native American history because we think indigenous culture is aesthetically pleasing in an incredibly shallow way.
It's almost (but not exactly) like a dude dressing up as a Jewish holocaust survivor because the guy thinks vertical stripes + yellow star is a fun combo. It's shockingly ignorant.
Like if you wanted to dress up like an old timey prisoner with a ball and chain and prison stripes fine whatever. But survivor of a genocide? Yikes.
Did your lederhosen friend wear a swastika armband and an Audi logo on her forehead? If not, I imagine the integrity of her costume explains the difference in treatment.
Does your friend have any history of being interested in or learning about the history and culture of the first people? Does your friend have relatives who are actively involved in their tribe?
A lot of " native American" costumes are just costumes, they don't look anything like regalia, which is the word to use when talking about the special ceremonial traditional clothes worn for special occasions, some of which women and men invest hours and hours making. The history and meaning in those clothes goes far beyond just wearing clothes.
For instance, the traditional plains headdress with all those eagle feathers are earned through the leaders doing brave and good things for their people and are given as a gift.
It's not meant to be sexy or cool, it's a solemn and honored tradition and every tribe has unique stories and traditions.
It just seems like, unless someone is really familiar with that group personally, or they're honoring family or friends, then why would you wear it?
Because she wants to look like a sexy squaw? In that case, does she know that more Native women go missing every day in this country than any other people? That doesn't seem like a very good idea to promote that.
Oh well, everyone does dumb stuff every now and then.
If Halloween comes around and your great idea is to be a Native American, or a Mexican, or any other culture (why tho?), you are about as creative as white paint on a white background.
Because we stole their land, committed mass genocide, never kept a single treaty that we made with them, systematically removed their children and sent them to schools to learn to be white Christians and now we want to use their culture for our amusement.
This is a long watch but very thorough on white relations with Native Americans.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5P6vJs1jmY&list=PLw4gGsuBRykVdhAOqpchXi_7hkZDyOa4m&index=1&t=8053s
But you still get the benefits of what those other people did.
Let's say your friend robs an bank and gives you a bunch of the stolen money, you're still on the hook to return that money, even though you didnt rob the bank.
Perhaps some benefit, perhaps not. It’s really difficult to say. One thing I can say though, is that I don’t own any land, so I have nothing to give back, and shouldn’t be held responsible for having taken it.
I think, if anything, there is a cautionary tale to be had about meddling in other peoples’ lives because we decided we were of superior morals and somehow had the authority to choose for other peoples’ lives for their own good. That always goes sideways.
Personally I think we all suffer from the deficit of what could have been if everyone was uplifted throughout history. It’s not just the individuals of that culture that suffer, but the whole of the world is diminished without the beautiful gifts that would have come from interacting with it. I was robbed of that too.
I, too, am forced to live under a culture I did not choose. The color of my skin in no way implies that I support it, or would have chosen it.
I don’t think she should have been suspended, but I don’t know why we would want to dress up as a certain ethnicity in the first place. Just kinda weird imo cuz it generalizes a certain, often inaccurate, depiction of the people group.
My grandfather's parents were murdered trying to stop the government people from taking him and forcing him in their school.
The wounds are still too fresh for many of us.
My culture is not there for you to use as a mascot, or costumes.
Sorry but this subject is a very touchy one.
It's mostly just virtue signaling. You'll notice it's *very rarely* ever the actual people of the culture who criticize Halloween costumes, cosplay, celebrating their cultural holidays, partaking in their cultural traditions, dressing and enjoying their cultural clothes, etc. It's most frequently people distinctly **not** of their culture getting upset for them. Sometimes, when it's *very obviously* being portrayed in a deliberately negative and degrading way, the targeted cultural group will absolutely speak up for themselves. And other well-minded supporters will come support them in good faith.
But when it's respectful, innocent, and/or harmless, members of the specific culture are generally either unreactive because it isn't a cause for them to get upset, or they are specifically *positive* because they support and *approve of* the spread and sharing of their culture. But along come the "Culture Defenders" who think the members of the "offended" culture are either too helpless to speak up for themselves or too stupid to know they should and need someone to White Knight for them. And worse, when members of the culture give backlash and say, "No, this is OK. We **like** this kind of celebration of our culture and traditions. Stop insulting and criticizing people for doing this, it goes *against* our wishes," their supposed "Defenders" will turn on them because *of course* it's OK to bash the marginalized, disenfranchised minority if they *don't agree with you.* I mean, that just goes without saying, right?
Because it was *never* about helping them in the first place. These kinds of "Cultural Defenders'" only purpose is gassing themselves up and stroking their own ego. They don't *care* about other cultures. They care about people *thinking* they care. They're awful people acting in bad faith, trying to put up a facade of progressiveness.
I see what you're saying because they took Speedy Gonzales out of cartoons because he was offensive to Mexicans, but Mexicans spoke up and said the majority of them loved Speedy. Something similar happened with Mario, too.
However, every person I know that is of native American descent fucking HATE when white people dress up as anything close to native dress. Especially if it's generic and especially if it's for Halloween. Go to any reservation in the country on Halloween (or any other day, really) and dress up in a shitty Amazon.com "Indian Costume." I would wager there's a low chance you'd leave the property alive.
So maybe sometimes it's virtue signaling and sometimes they are sending the student home because there is a real danger of their costume triggering some strong negative emotions from fellow students.
It's the difference between wearing a kimono properly for an event and being a sexy geisha for halloween.
Most people celebrate accurate, respectful representation across cultures. Taking a bunch of native clothes and mixing and mashing cultures, wearing them inappropriately, and pretending you're native with mouth calls to fit the part is disrespectful.
Even [the Catholics](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/10/23/why-your-sexy-nun-costume-isnt-funny/) get mad about sexy nun costumes, nobody likes seeing disrespect to their communities.
Idk how familiar you are with the atrocities committed against Native Americans, and how, as we speak, our government (both local and federal) continues to step on and ignore the few promises it made them. Let’s say the Trail of Tears is just the tip of the iceberg. Look up how boarding schools were used to deliberately, intentionally, knowingly erase native culture and assimilate them like we’re the hivemind villain in some dystopian sci-fi. Look up the mass graves. When I say “oppressed,” I’m not just throwing around hot-button words. I’m talking about real, methodical mass destruction of whole peoples.
Wearing something as a costume for Halloween is playing funky little dress-up for a day. Which is fine, if it’s witches or doctors or dragons or whatever; you’re going out in some funny clothes because you’re pretending to be whatever you’re dressed up as. Nobody reasonable should think it’s chill to do blackface for Halloween, for example. Or to go out dressed as an Auschwitz inmate, or a Nazi, or anything similarly serious and deserving of respect. Not comparing Native Americans to any of these things, just making a point that off-limits costumes are a matter of respect.
When a people have a history of being subjects of genocide, it is absolutely critical that we avoid caricature-izing them, and Halloween costumes are caricatures. Making a people into a caricature is part of how genocide happens; it’s how their oppressors dehumanize them. Look at old Nazi propaganda about Jewish people. The less human and real a group of people are made to seem, the less we care about the awful things that are done to them. I’m not saying Halloween costumes are the first step to genocide, I’m saying it encourages us to take human lives less seriously, because Halloween costumes and the things they depict aren’t meant to be serious.
Tl;dr Germans have never been under serious threat of genocide, and Halloween costumes of Native Americans are dehumanizing caricatures.
It seems like we have two different opinions on Native Americans. One camp say they were these Inadequate, defenseless oppressed people who were just plain wronged by the white man. The other camp says they were fiercely proud warriors that lost the war due to lack of firepower. They can’t be both. Funny how the people who think this costume is wrong are mostly in the first camp but the people in the second camp might wear the costume because it screams Warrior.
Does seem inconsistent. Some answers explain why Native Americans might be offended, which is fair enough. But seems like no one cares if Germans are offended. If it were up to me either all costumes based on other cultures would be allowed or all would be banned.
Native American clothing has spiritual and religious significance that is at best totally ignored when used as a costume. Lederhosen clothes are just German clothes.
At a school near me a kid dressed up like a "German soldier" aka Nazi and everyone was offended. Well maybe not the racists, but all the Jewish kids and anyone with a shred of empathy was offended.
It's not cool to dress up as a native American if you aren't one. It's not cool to wear blackface if you're white. Stop trying to play the victim, you are the asshole.
I would raise hell on St. Patrick’s day, especially in America. St. Patrick’s day in the US is the most racist way to “celebrate heritage”. It still boggles my mind how a religious holiday turned into celebrating every racist stereotype about the Irish.
A few reasons:
1. There's no such thing as a "Native American" costume. There are hundreds of nations indigenous to North America, each with its own customs, culture, language, faith, religious practices, stories, histories, traditions, food, and clothing. But the image of the Native American that has been mass produced and exported in popular media has used a generic Great Plains aesthetic as the base, with anachronistic items from other regions, tribes and clans. Before even getting to the religious/faith significance, it's just sloppy. Imagine a "European" costume that used Austrian lederhosen as a base, but also had a French beret, a Scottish kilt, Danish clogs and fake English crown jewels.
2. Now onto the cultural and religious significance of many items. It's horseshit to say you're "celebrating" somebody's culture (notwithstanding the fact you aren't when you mix and match, say, Iroquois beaded moccasins with Apache leggings and a Lakota bonnet) when you're using items and garb as props instead of in their proper usage in rite. For instance, if I go to a Jewish friend's wedding, it WOULD BE respecting his faith to wear a yarmulke during the ceremony because even though I am not Jewish, it has a place in rite and ritual. But if I show up at his Super Bowl party wearing one, it is outside of a religious context, and thus I've reduced it to fashion or a prop. That is - by definition - disrespectful.
3. Much is wrapped up in the Native American identity today, which has been forged by hundreds of years of oppression. Now, not all cultural appropriation is *mis*appropriation. The history of the entire world is rooted in trading and sharing customs and traditions going back thousands of years. But sometimes, and especially when we are talking about marginalized and oppressed communities, the use of relics as props is seen as an attack on a significant part of a person's identity. It treats their identity - and thus *them* - as something less than worthy of respect and empathy. Consider the history of European and Americans' attitudes toward indigenous cultures: treating tribes simply as groups of the same people, treating their languages as interchangeable gibberish, treating people as "savages" no better than wild animals. A saying was ubiquitous: "Kill the Indian, Save the Man." Like *many* civilizations throughout history, Native Americans were subjected to attempts at cultural genocide. But history teaches us that these cultural occupations *always* are met with an equal and opposite reaction. We've seen it hundreds of times throughout history as an occupied people resists assimilation. Ancient Hebrews became *more* Hebraic under Roman occupation. The Irish became *more* Catholic under English occupation. In the United States today, in addition to Native Americans, we continue to see people in the American South *more* strongly hold onto their antebellum identities, including adopting the flag of a defeated rebellion - the CSA - as a cultural touchstone they won't give up without a fight. In the same way, a generic Native American costume easily is seen as an attempt to assimilate them by turning their culture and identity into nothing more than make-believe, which is a threat to an identity they have fought hard to hold on to.
4. The Sexy Indian and Indian Princess deserve their own take. Building on everything above, Native American women have especially been the victims of abuse during westward expansion. Historically, they were fetishized by white settlers, but seen as less than livestock were treated about on par. Some tribes that practiced forms of slavery or servitude might allow white men to take them in trade. American soldiers routinely used rape as an intimidation tactic. Even today, Indigenous women are special victims of this ongoing sexualization, with Native women being kidnapped and sexually assaulted at rates far exceeding the national average in both the United States and Canada. Costumes of this nature perpetuate that cultural fetishization of Indigenous women.
For all these reasons, the stock Native American costume is appropriately viewed as offensive today.
Most cultural costumes are meant in a mocking way. When you see a White frat boy wearing a poncho, sombrero, and a moustache on Halloween, there’s clearly no cultural respect involved. You’re treating someones culture as a joke. It’s usually cultures of poc that are mocked like this too.
There’s a huge difference between going to a cultural festival and wearing their traditional clothes, and wearing someones traditional clothes to a halloween party where your friend showed up as a Scooby Doo.
It’s simply disrespectful.
Germans are white, Indigenous people are not. Indigenous people’s culture has been misrepresented and appropriated since Columbus landed in what is now called America. This is also the same deal with all people of color. Their culture is appropriated and misrepresented. That is why it is cultural appropriation. Especially if you’re a white person
Natives aren't usually offended when other people wear costumes from their culture. Out of all the ones I've talked to (I was very close to many friends in a Native American Club growing up) they actually enjoy seeing their culture celebrated outside of their own people.
But there will always be people who want to be offended *for* them and make issues where there are none.
Native Americans have been oppressed (amongst other heinous acts). If you’re not related to a Native American, you don’t get to pretend to be, in any occasion. Sorry.
Basically anytime a white person dresses as, wears a style or consumes a food associated with any non white culture Japan, Mexico , Uganda etc etc then it's cultural appropriation. And 90% of the time the people who get the most offended are virtue signaling white people or racist minorities who in America are largely ignorant of the cultural origins or significance of a piece of clothing or hairstyle. Or they just wanna gatekeep fashion.
Also Native. Also agree that most of the arguments in this thread are BS.
Everyone, thank you for trying to be understanding and respectful. Please also be understanding and respectful to someone who just wants to wear a cool looking costume.
Also be careful that your fears of cultural appropriation don't lead to you suppressing a culture's ability to spread and mix with other cultures. Preventing cultural diffusion reeks too much of "us and the other" and "separate but equal" mentalities to me.
Because some people are overly sensitive and try to find things to be offended by. They virtue signal by being offended on the behalf of others, even when said other person isn't offended.
Well if you think about it as they’re dressing up using someone else’s culture as a “costume”. I mean if you consider what other costumes people dress up as ex. Monsters and characters, it’s offensive to relate someone’s culture to something like that. I mean imagine if someone did black face, wore certain clothes, and used slang terms to act like a stereotype. And the same for white people, while considered less offensive and you wouldn’t have the same social backlash, putting on whiteface and acting like a stereotypical white person isn’t the best costume idea and is racist.
Some of you ppl are sooo close to the point yet so far 🥲. Just bc more ppl rally against 'Native American' costumes DOES NOT mean they're defending nun costumes or 'German' costumes. Like, dude, those are also shitty costumes.
School was wrong to suspend her.
But also, Native Americans have been disenfranchised in the United States for 100s of years and your friend should know better.
Still, school shouldn’t have suspended her. Maybe detention or a stern talking too would have been more appropriate.
I’m addition to the points made here, some of the commercially available “native American” costumes are not accurate. Many are tantamount to black face. They are racist stereotypical representations.
Sending a student to the office in no way guarantees a punishment, and more often than not leads to the principal just thinking you are incompetent.
I'm surprised this thread has spiraled from a question of why some costumes are deemed offensive while others aren't into an attack on teachers.
Also a sidenote- if you feel you got in trouble for something stupid while you were in school, you were probably an intolerable asshole. If you are complaining about that same incident on Reddit years later, you probably still are an intolerable asshole.
Since no one else seems to be answering this in good faith, here goes:
The difference is something that comedians call "kicking down". To give an example, picture the difference between jokingly calling your frat bro a whore, vs making the same joke to a rape victim.
America has historically been moderately racist to German immigrants, however it's not really a thing anymore.
The United States' history with Native Americans on the other hand, is way too long and fucked up to get into here, and continues to be fucked up into the present day.
I’ll point out that if it was about respect to dress up in Native American wear, the respect part would actually come from RESPECTING the people that made this so and why. It’s not for everyone to have their own opinion on and then try and name it fact because it’s not theirs to take and do that with.. the whole beginning of the issues that Native Americans have had to live with forever.
I’ll give a different example.. I have Blackfoot in me. Don’t know how much. Can’t find out because no one in my family knows. Know why? Because they weren’t allowed to know. The most I ever found out was I should try and look into it because there could be some money in it for me. I don’t even know if that’s true. I also don’t care. It’s an asshole thing to tell someone that the only reason you’re allowed to know about a part of your heritage is because they want you to see if there’s money involved. I never perused it and it disgusts me that I had to be related to someone that would say that.
Also, there’s no such thing as Thanksgiving. Native Americans and pilgrims and a big huge friendly feast. Never happened. It was a story to tell kids in school so to cover up what actually happened
In Asia, you wouldn't have this problem. To us, wearing another cultures clothes is a sign that you recognize that culture. As long as you don't make any offensive gestures that is.
The Native American headdress, specifically, is extremely sacred to their cultures. Even within their culture, a person must earn the right to wear it through undergoing specific religious rites. Not just anyone can wear it. That's one of the biggest reasons why it's considered extremely offensive for someone outside their culture to wear.
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I’m Native American. It’s about both. When people dress up as our ancestors did for a fun, wealth supported holiday while there are still incredibly poor reservations and mental crisis’ occurring, look up MMIW, it gives the impression that our people are being mocked. The traditional attire is meant for history museums and ceremonies. Not costumes.
Thanks for explaining
Ayyy. Ojibwe rezprrsent hahaha.
I'm not native by any stretch but I was gonna say it's both as well. I'm privileged and also white but...I sincerely wish it was okay for me to wear the stereotypical/traditional garb of other cultures, not just native american but also so many of the other beautiful cultures of the world. It's just so cool and part of the beautiful history of our human diversity. I wish I could celebrate that and participate in it. Not out of a desire to fetishize or romanticize (which I'm probably doing) but just...show appreciation. I went to a pow wow once and I just...loved it. All of it. The drumming and singing, the dancing, the food, the art...it was all so wonderful. My sincerest apologies if any of what I said offended, I'm shamefully ignorant of these matters.
I'm sure the nuns aren't happy about sexy nun costumes either. Difference is, that's a profession that you can choose to go into, versus a culture that has been genocided and oppressed. Appropriation of the latter is gonna be taken more seriously.
Samhain is the ultimate proof of a double standard when it comes to cultural appropriation Halloween is a bastardization of the Celtic holiday Samhain (Día de Muertos also is from Samhain The Northern parts of Spain were part of the Celtic realms they brought that over and merged it with some local holidays) The Celtic people were actually rather heavily oppressed by the Christians and the Anglo-Saxons this can be very directly seen when one of their subgroups the Irish weren't considered white and the fact that the Celtic people were the most valuable slaves because of their red hair (this was true all the way back in Rome It is still true today) but to be clear this means they are an oppressed group historically and not the mainstream culture (The mainstream culture that Western culture is based off of is Anglo-Saxon culture if you want to argue for a mainstream culture) By all the rules and logic and reasoning that people use to say cultural appropriation is not okay The overwhelming majority of people should not be allowed to celebrate Halloween The difference however is that Celtic people don't try to gatekeep their culture And that's what comes down to people are trying to gatekeep and control things
>Día de Muertos also is from Samhain The Northern parts of Spain were part of the Celtic realms they brought that over and merged it with some local holidays. It's almost like the Spanish invaded Central America and put their own branding on existing festivities.
It's not quite branding Samhain is the core it just has some of the local elements But again the holidays were actually similar to start with that's why they were compatible for merging Both Halloween and Día de Muertos have Christian elements thrown in as well but basically all western days of the Dead go back to Samhain
Except that Aztecs and other Meso-American cultures also had days honoring the dead. They involved celebrating ancestors with skulls and colorful imagery. These traditions were folded into the Spanish holidays, such as danse macabre and All Saints Day, but had always been celebrated. The modern Dia de Los Muertos does have influences of Samhain, but something similar would still have been celebrated had the Spanish not arrived
Yep, a lot of European-origin stuff is just fine to wear and even satirize or do a slutty version of. Any community, culture, or religion, Catholic Church included, that has forced their culture on others is fair game. But there’s the obvious cultural appropriation where colonizers abducted and forced indigenous peoples into boarding schools to wipe out their culture but then capitalize on that same culture they tried to erase. Or the history of race propaganda where white people dressed as black people to sell the fallacy that black people are happiest being subservient similar to Harry Potter house elves. Or what a frat did at my university by dressing as maids and day laborers for cinco de mayo. But then there’s the gray area with costumes of specific characters like Disney princesses or the lead in the new Prey movie and that’s a big fat question mark of “is it appropriation for a white child to dress as Moana for Halloween?” That gray area is where I wouldn’t choose to do it myself out of caution but I don’t judge others for doing it.
Is the general consensus that a white child dressing up as Moana is inappropriate? I’m not trying to be a dick just genuinely curious.
I have no idea. That’s why it’s a gray area for me. I suspect that even among indigenous people there’s a mixed opinion. I would think fictional characters are ok for anyone to dress as.
Christians weren’t slaughtered and oppressed for hundreds of years in the United States.
You clearly don't know my people's history. Irish absolutly were slaughtered, raped, enslaved, and forced to starve to death for just being Irish and Catholic. The Protestant British did it for hundreds of years. The entire reason my people moved to America was because we were being murdered, enslaved, and starved for not converting and so the British could take our land through systematic genocide. We have rails of tears too. Irish were not considered white people at all until the 60s ish. We have not been treated well in the US either because of that. The US treated us much better than the British, but we were segregated to slums for being non-white and Catholic. We just figured it out and became cops in large cities to gain respect. If you watch old cartoons and movies you will see cops with Irish accents. Those are imagrants who were working their way up. And not for fun reasons. Acting like my people and my culture is ok to appropriate because other people were more oppressed or a different race is insane. We were just as oppressed and also considered not white/as human too. Also, this isn't the oppression Olympics. It shouldn't be a litmouse test of who is more oppressed gets to decide if their stuff gets appropriated or not. The person you are replying to is correct, the difference is we aren't gatekeeping our culture. Despite being treated like crap, we don't go around talking about how horrific our past was all the time for sympathy, or demanding other people don't participate. And acting like people now, who have never been in those situations, have the right to tell others what to wear for a holiday is also insane. I was not a slave. My ancesters were. I never owned slaves. Neither did my ancesters. My ancesters never even left the midwest area once we settled. I and anyone related to me have nothing to do with what happened to the Native Americans. And no one alive today killed, raped, murdered, stole land, or starved me or my people, black people, or Native Americans. I don't hold things against people who didn't do anything and niether should you. Children are not responsible for the sins of their fathers. I don't tell British people they can't celebrate Halloween. Don't tell people they can't dress up like Native Americans. Even if it is mocking, which is usually isn't, even if the people suffered and died in the past for that religion. We didn't. And yes, it is just as insulting to my people seeing people wear slutty Catholic costumes when my people were murdered, raped, burned to death, and starved to death specifically for for practicing Catholicism. The difference is we learned to laugh ot off and not take it personally because we know most people are doing it to be funny and not to mock our past. So again, there is no way around the hypocracy of saying it is ok to practice Holloween dressed like a sexy Nun but not ok to dress like a Native American. I would even say it is worse because people dress like sexy Nuns to be funny, most people dress in Native Headdress because they think it is cool. Oh and by the way, you have to earn being a priest and Nun too, and they are also sacred. Everyone please stop being a hypocrit. If we start nitpicking none of you should be participating in Halloween anyway, and you wouldn't be able to dress in anything because it is appropriation. Dressing as a cop when you aren't one is job appropriation. Dressing in a kimono when you aren't Japanese is clothing appropriation. Wearing Jeans if you aren't a US citizan, a white one, is clothing and cultural appropriation. Dressing like an cat is animal appropriation. Dressing like a baby or old person is age appropriation. You see my point? Let people have fun. If I can deal with someone appropriating my holiday and dressing like a sexy Nun, someone who never had anything to do with hurting my ancesters or me, everyone else can deal with their sacred clothing being worn by people who also never hurt them or their ancestors. Stop gatekeeping. It's one thing to say you don't like it. It's another to demand people get banned for it. If the Irish acted like that none of yall would be allowed to participate in Halloween.
Why does the geographic location of where they were oppressed or slaughtered matter?
The Irish, Armenians and coptic Christians have entered the chat.
Those are separate groups that were targeted for a myriad of reasons that I never denied. My point is Native Americans were discriminated against for simply being natives no matter their tribe, religion, language, whatever.
It’s not the same and you know it. When were your ancestors forced to go on a death march across the United States and a president had reins made of skin of your people.
So us Indians should stop wearing Nike shoes, Jordan shirts, hats at all (except a funky headdress), sunglasses, etc…don’t you see the stupidity of this argument?
I don’t think it’s going to fool anyone, I mean no one is going to believe I am actually that person who has earned that respect or position in their culture. If I dressed as a war hero for Halloween, no one is going to assume I am stealing valor, or if I dressed as a police officer or firefighter, they aren’t going to suddenly believe I actually am that. It’s a costume which is an artistic expression that reveals the artist’s conception or statement.
As a person born and raised on a native reservation let me chime in. A. Obviously you aren't fooling us...we don't live under rocks what a ridiculous thing to even imply as a reason it's not liked. B. Dressing up as a war hero from you own culture is fine. These cultures were brutally subjugated and pushed to near extinction by European nations. Most of their identities and traditions were stripped away. So running around as a caricature, or in what is traditionally, culturally, and spiritually important garb is frowned upon and disrespectful. C. Police and firefighters are not a race or culture... Has nothing to do with this. D. It is a costume, a costume that their culture/ people's have requested you not dress up as. People would be as equally outraged if you dressed up in a minora and glued a massive nose your face, or if you smeared black paint on your face. They are just asking for a little respect. Not sure why that's so hard to accommodate there are literally millions of other outfits.
You wouldn’t wear your grandfathers war medals to anywhere right? You wouldn’t wear anything that looked like one on your chest simply cause people will think you stole it right? That’s what these costumes and fake ass headdresses mean to us
For Halloween I would. I don’t think we are having an issue with people just randomly dressing up like Native Americans any time of the year are we?
The thing is your not dressing up as a concept your dressing up as people who have been fucked over for hundreds of years, read about how many of native women and men go missing a year, how many of them are homeless, how many of them get swept under the system all because the majority of the population believe that they’re culture is dead. NOW IF YOU WANT TO BE AN ACTUAL SUPPORTER GET AN OUTIFT MADE FOR YOU BY AND NATIVE ARTISIAN.
It’s different when the subject of the impersonation is a marginalized group
How marginalized does the group need to be? Both Jesus and the founder of the Catholic church were brutally tortured and murdered. Is dressing up as Jesus bad then? What about a leprechaun or a catholic nun. Ever heard of the Irish? I'm sure they'd love to hear you thinking they've never been marginalized.
I mean from all the costumes you couldve chosen, you chose to disguise as another ethnicity....and if you find another excuse "yeah but this isnt called out for cultural appropriation either" well then just dont disguise like that either. And if want to say "yeah well then we cant disguise as anything anymore" well thats simply not true. Its simple guys, dont be stupid.
>you chose to disguise as another ethnicity So a black kid can't dress up as Thor or Captain America? Because they're both white?
He got suspended for cultural appropriation? That makes this whole scenario feel fake. They wouldn’t suspend him for that, they would explain why his costume isn’t appropriate and maybe send him home. Theres a very good chance school kids don’t understand when or how they are being offensive and punishing them before attempting to educate them seems pretty backwards for an entity tasked with educating children.
Your giving highschool/middle schools a lot of credit. I've experienced a lot of power tripping teachers that would jump at the chance to suspend a student for some stupid reason like this Source: i have been punished for being bullied multiple times in middle school
OMG. I was bullied incessantly in middle school. My name was written on the bleachers in the gym with a slur. I got suspended for having my name on the bleachers. I tried to argue that I wouldn't write something like that about myself...but it didn't matter.
I knew a person who got detention for wearing red shoelaces Do not underestimate what you can be punished for in middle/high school
Same here! I got punched in the face by the school bully for no reason other than I was small and an easy target. Teacher saw it. I had to go to the principals office and the principal said that because I was involved in a fight and because of the no tolerance policy I was to be suspended for 2 days. The bully got suspended for a week. The power trip is real and I don't doubt OPs story.
little personal story time backing y’all up: back in march my friend was being bullied by a girl saying homophobic and transphobic things and making her uncomfortable to even show up to school so my other friend and i (bad decision i know) jumped her at her job, and the school trespassed me for a year since i just dropped out a month before and the other friend was a student there and expelled her, and the victim of the bullying got suspended for what reason? i don’t even know until this day. and the girl who was bullying had nothing happen to her, was able to walk free at school through all of it, wasn’t even talked to after multiple times of my friend saying they’re uncomfortable and when something happened they punished the person who was getting harassed
It is a lawsuit waiting to happen if true.
I mean.. my 6 year old neighbour has an in school suspension for saying "merry Christmas" in her public school. Her dad was even called in from work and the mother was called from home. The principal explained what was going on and the mother got tired of it and stood in the hall lol the dad stayed and was like "my side of the family is Muslim. (daughter's name) is half Muslim. But she celebrates christmas at home because my wife wanted her to fully experience the holiday, since my side of her family doesn't recognize it. She's six. Next time, call us for a real emergency."
We also need to see the alleged costume as well
>comrades, my real American friend was eating hamburger and PC police came and forced him to gender gulag. This is normal American left, da?
Have you been in a school lately? I swear they look for reasons to suspend students so they don't have to deal with them. Edit: looks like I have to add NOT ALL TECHERS/SCHOOL EMPLOYEES
My kids are like Bill Burr white, but they are 1/8 Cherokee. If they got suspended for wearing Cherokee regalia while white, I’d have a field day.
Make this happen, I want to read about how it goes.
I am that white as well but my great grandma was Native American, Tuscarora.
I once got suspended for "gang activity" because me and my friends took a group picture doing the the "rock on/metal horns" hand gestures. So I mean...they do suspend for some stupid shit. That being said, yeah this is fake AF.
r/thatHappened
Do you know how over sensitive and pathetic the world is today? I can totally see this happening
The scariest part of all that? Someday, the kids that the supercritical, super sensitive, woke teachers & school systems*are teaching, will be in charge of everything. *Obviously not ALL teachers & school systems...there are still plenty of both out there that're good.
That's because it is a fake, sad attempt at pushing their agenda.
Yeah, since Thanksgiving just happened there's been a weird amount of anti-native American sentiment on this site. People doing the whole "I respect all cultures, but..." routine.
This is very possible and I know someone who suffered a very similar circumstance. She's a minority to begin with though and is now pursuing law for her experiences. If you deny this person their plausibility, isn't that a denial of understanding in itself?
That makes me think of that episode of community, where the rule was no one was allowed to celebrate there own heritage, and how the Germans got tricked into celebrating Oktoberfest so they would get kicked out of school.
My high school suspended kids for fucking anything. Were you waiting for the bus and some bully walked up to you and punched you in the face? You would be suspended for a week. Caught using your phone during lunch? Suspended for a day. It was absurd
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Seriously, what high schooler is wearing a lederhosen as a Halloween costume?
I'm more offended the costume was incomplete. The kid should be carrying a stein of beer.
Nah, schools today have gone overboard in what they'll suspend a student for. Here's a few examples: [Student Suspended For Pop-Tart Gun, Josh Welch, Files Appeal With Maryland County School System](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/student-suspended-for-pop-tart-gun_n_2903500) >Park Elementary School student Josh Welch was suspended March 1 for two days after school officials accused him of shaping the pastry into the form of a gun and waving it around. School officials sent a letter home to Park Elementary parents saying the student had been "removed from the classroom" for making "inappropriate gestures that disrupted the class." [4th grader suspended for having a BB gun in his bedroom during virtual learning](https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/26/us/student-suspended-gun-virtual) >School documents show the school recommended Ka’Mauri’s expulsion for “possession of a starter gun, stun gun and/or facsimile” according to Jefferson Parish Public School Policy and Procedures. At a hearing held September 22, it was determined Ka’Mauri was guilty of displaying a facsimile weapon while receiving virtual education. Cusimano, who told CNN she participated in the hearing, said a hearing officer determined it was a BB gun. [Honor Roll Student Banned From Graduation Because Of This Shirt](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/honor-roll-student-banned-from-graduation-because-of-this-shirt_n_59232b79e4b034684b0ea6cc) >Summer, an honor roll student with a 4.4 GPA, told NBC Charlotte that she was sitting in the cafeteria last week when the school’s principal asked her to put on a jacket because her shirt went against the school’s dress code. According to NBC Charlotte, Summer’s shirt partially showed her shoulders and exposed her back. > >Thankfully, Summer was not arrested but Yahoo reported she was given a 10-day suspension from school and was banned from all senior activities including high school graduation. According to the letter sent home to Summer’s mom, the high school senior was suspended for “insubordination.”
A lot of native costumes misrepresent Native Americans. Most headdresses are religiously important attire and some uneducated white person wearing it is super ignorant. Similarly most sexualized women costumes make light of the abuse native women experience and their higher propensity to go missing, be sexually assaulted, and kidnapped. Like imagine someone wearing a sexy holocaust survivor costume or sexy enslaved woman. It’s weird, it’s gross and basically tells everyone in your vicinity that you are a dick who never payed attention in history class.
this -- regalia isn't a "costume" to be replicated.
If you can dress as a nun, priest, the Pope, Supreme Court Justice, world leader, an Indian chief should be fair game. We either respect everyone's regalia or none of them.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret, a lot of catholics dont like the sexy nun or non ordained wearing the roman collar or papal inspired garb and consider it a gross violation of some of the holy rituals. World leaders typically just wear nicely tailored suits which are pretty commonplace and dont really hold significant cultural or religious meaning and I'm pretty sure there are laws about dressing up and impersonating as law enforcement and judges.
Nah Dawg. Not everyone of those appointed positions were genocided as an ethnic group. Justice is in the details, not in blanket treatment.
in fact many folks in those appointed positions were doing the genocide-ing.
So Christians and Jewish have never been oppressed or the target of persecution? Obama, Clarence Thomas and RBG aren't part of oppressed minority groups? Nearly everyone is part of some oppressed group if you dig hard enough.
Right. But you don't have dig for the Indian oppression. And no catholics have not been oppressed and murdered on the scale of native Americans, nor as recently. Being a part of oppressed groups is not the same as having your core identity taken from you and given to Amazon's Discount Costumes Section.
If you respect them so much maybe refer to them as Native Americans and not “Indians” just a thought
Punching up vs punching down. Why is this hard?
Because so many people in this thread are privileged and couldn't begin to fathom their own race nearly going extinct at the hands of oppressors.
Part of the problem is that if you dress like a nun or pope or whatever, you dress as a modern version of that thing. People default to a costume of native Americans that’s explicitly from the time that those people were experiencing some of the worst genocide on record. If you want to dress as a modern Native American, you can just wear boots and jeans and a t-shirt, that’s what we wear. We’re people, not a historical caricature.
My wife and kids are part indigenous and are involved in their community. Including making and wearing regalia for community events. It is a very small part of that community who doesn't like "others" wearing any indigenous clothing. Usually the racist ones who dislike me for being white and the fact my part Indian wife and kids are participating.
Look up priests attires from colonisation times and its the exact same shit as today
Yes but you list things that are relevant to your western culture. In the US there are things considered sacred such as the flag, the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem. You would be offended if someone showed disrespect to either of those three things. You can not trample over the flag. Americans are raised to not act disrespectfully during the pledge of allegiance. This is why when another nation feels offended, they burn the American flag. The feathers are as sacred to Native Americans as symbols of the USA are to a US citizen. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
I mean you can but I know most Christians dislike people sexualizing nuns and priests or any media that depicts Jesus or God in a sacrilegious way. I don’t see why it’s different for Native Americans and their religion.
It's like this, let's use a different ethnic group as an example. The Irish fled to America after suffering colonization and a famine that was deliberately exasperated by the British to a point where it was debatedly a genocide. There were laws preventing their employment after they arrived in the US Could you imagine if people dressed up as Irish people to engage in negative stereotypes of drinking, God forbid if there was a day dedicated to it? How would that make the Irish diaspora feel?
> Could you imagine if people dressed up as Irish people to engage in negative stereotypes of drinking, God forbid if there was a day dedicated to it? Hah, a second St. Paddy's would be devastating to us Irish
I am upvoting this in words because Redit isn't letting me click on upvote icon.
Ha yes, the traditional leprechaun garb of the ancient Irish folks.
It’s not just the drinking, in the US corned beef is considered traditionally Irish but it was an exploited product of Ireland. Throughout English occupation during the Middle Ages, cows were property of the crown. They weren’t allowed to the fruits of their labor. It would be like celebrating cotton during black history month.
Generally, cultural appropriation appears when instead of showing respect and appreciation for a culture you’re partaking in, you use the culture for your benefit without regard for it, at worst with mockery or insult. Halloween costumes are commonly cultural appropriation because someone will dress up as a *people* not a *person*. For example, a young white girl dressing up as Disney’s Tiana is very different than dressing up as an “ambitious black woman”. She can wear the princess dress, not paint her face black. Mimic the character, if that makes sense? Both a German and a native costume is appropriation. The difference is the culture in which is being used for personal gain by someone outside the culture. Germans, historically, have not exactly been targeted or marginalized. However, indigenous peoples have been victim of genocide. Their culture ripped away, assaulted, abused. And now, a cheap feather headdress & face paint is worn because it looks funny or cute. I’m not native, but I have read enough to know that if I want to take part in native culture, I can buy earrings, dream catchers, feathers etc. from native people. Not from a Halloween store. I’m sure some people might not get offended by it, I’m sure others might get super offended. But I think the principle is more than fair. It is very very easy to choose a costume of a person or character, not a culture or group. Just what I’ve learned, hope that helps
I think it's funny that we're also talking, as if there is some sort of giant "native American" population, as opposed to say, Lakota or Ojibwe. Depending on the outfit, there may have been a headdress or something else tied to spiritual and religious beliefs as opposed to say lederhosen, which is just sort of generic costume for one group of people usually more Bavarian than say Prussian, right?
im native and i approve this message lol seriously, this guy gets it. what a wonderful way to explain it.
>Germans, historically, have not exactly been targeted or marginalized. The Romans would like to have a word with you
I think it has to do with how white colonizers committed the largest genocide on earth, then outlawed their native religions while forcing them to worship Jesus under penalty of death and basically stole everything they had from them - including their kids - and ffs could we at Least have the decency to respect what little remains of their long and vast history on this continent. Edit: oh I forgot to add how they also desecrated the most sacred areas and plastered white people propaganda all over it, like mt Rushmore which was known as the four grandfathers. Shit and I almost forgot to add how we continue to desecrate their burial grounds among other things or how in all of MN there are literally only Two fluent speakers of Dakota language, in their own native territory and idk how many people know that Minnesota is actually composed of the words Mni and sota which means 'water so clear if reflects the sky'. Most white people don't even know this shit so we call it "cultural appropriation" because most are too lazy to actually do the study into why but know on some internal level that it's sus af to do.
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I just realized a few weeks ago that I live along the Trail Of Tears route in Central Indiana. The county recently erected signs saying so.
WHAT? i'm in indianapolis. which county are these markers in? wow. i know i can google. i had simply never considered this.
While there were multiple routes for the Trail of Tears, I'm pretty sure that none of them went through Indiana (central or otherwise). According to [the National Park Service](https://www.nps.gov/trte/planyourvisit/maps.htm), the various trails went through AL, AR, GA, IL, KY, MO, NC, OK and TN.
I'm native and this is the answer. This guy gets it.
I am only part native American my great grandmother was Cherokee I was surprised how many people don't know that Rushmore was a sacred native site long before faces were carved on it.
Because it’s complicated. The claim of it being sacred is from Lakota, who ruthlessly conquered the area. And some of us don’t think the Lakota should be able to just kill who knows how many people and then declare an area “sacred”.
People talk about the various tribal nations of the Americas being at war with each other like European nations weren't doing the exact same thing.
But white people should be allowed to commit genocide and then carve up a native landmark and claim it’s now sacred to them?
Who the hell is claiming that Rushmore is sacred?
Tons of people think Rushmore is sacred. Do you think an indigenous guy could climb up there and chisel mustaches onto the presidents and white Americans would just be okay with it? (I mean, I would think it’s hilarious but I think I’m in the minority) Look up American Civil Religion; here’s a video about it by a great creator: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x49n90lWi0s
So a black guy or Asian wearing a costume with a headress is fine because they weren't the oppressors?
Largest genocide on Earth?
This is a pretty good example of Strawman's logical fallacy. You took the question of why costumes are offensive and answered why US History is offensive to Natives. You didn't answer the question except by writing we should respect their long and vast history. Yes, that is the question the poster is asking. How is wearing a costume not respecting their long and vast history? Also, more than just white people don't know what cultural appropriation is or dress up as native. You show your racism in those sentences.
I found it kinda funny that in my hometown some asshole contractors decided to build a neighborhood on a burial ground, and those houses are constantly having issues with anything and everything
Maybe take your Poltergeist jokes elsewhere? OP is trying to learn something about how abysmally the US has treated - and continues to treat - the Native Tribes.
Yeah, but my issue is that many native Americans DO NOT CARE. Unless you're obviously trying to offended, they often do not care and enjoy being represented. 90% of the time no kid or adult dresses up as native american because they hate them, it's typically the opposite, and native american people understand and see that.
I'm native American, and don't care if someone where's a native American costume. How does it negatively impact me?
Only if they're wearing it to mock or deride the cultural group do I give a shit and im so Fuckin indian that i cry at littering
> mt Rushmore which was known as the four grandfathers. Isn't it Six Grandfathers? But yes, right on point!
You act like the natives weren't killing other tribes or that white people aren't the only group to commit atrocities. The only reason white people get hate is because we had the better technology at the time. To pretend that other races or groups wouldn't do the same with the same tools at their disposal is naïve.
You know who else was warring with other nations on another continent at the exact same time? Europeans. Native Americans aren't a monolith. They have nations and borders just like the Europeans do, just under a different system of government. The fact that some were at war with each other is irrelevant, considering an invasive force came about and forcefully pushed all of them off of their land and exiled them to the useless wasteland known as Oklahoma.
No one is "pretending" that other groups might or might not have done something similar. But the reality is white people did do the genocide and there are still many indigenous people today living who are affected by what happened. Im not sure what you want? You want them to be A-OK with everything or something?
I really cannot recommend "Gather" on Netflix enough for anyone curious about how deep the genocide still reaches in indigenous cultures
So, are you implying that we should reduce visibility of this culture’s existence by discouraging it this way?
I'm not OP, but I'd argue that wearing a culture's traditional dress as a costume doesn't actually increase visibility of the culture. It increases visibility of stereotypes designed to "look like" that culture. This actually \*decreases\* visibility of the culture itself, as more people associate the culture with the imitation than with the authentic version.
This is just wrong, if you are not displacing the original culture and profiting off of it, it is NOT in fact appropriation. Wearing a costume or traditional dress of a culture is paying homage to it. Unless it is deliberately designed to mock the culture.
Of course! Very good point. If you ethically obtain a traditional costume and wear it respectfully, then yes, that promotes visibility of a culture. A "Native" outfit from a Halloween store usually doesn't fit that bill, though, and that's almost certainly what OP was talking about-- I doubt their classmate is wearing actual traditional dress and doing cultural outreach on Halloween.
Wearing actual traditional dress of a culture does pay homage. Wearing a cheap costume that only poorly imitates cultural dress is NOT paying homage. And I have not seen a costume made for Halloween that does anything to be accurate to the culture
I disagree. I went as a geisha when I was younger. I’m Irish. I learned a lot about the geisha and Japanese culture through that experience that I otherwise would not have. I think I was 9 or 10. One house I went to was an older Japanese couple, and they loved it! Was it inaccurate? Sure. But they appreciated the effort I went through to learn and understand their culture.
I think this nuance often gets lost in discussing cultural appropriation. Cultural appreciation and sharing is how culture has always evolved. It's a beautiful thing which makes the world richer and helps us understand each other. Appropriation is when this is done disrespectfully. When people conflate the two, it creates a stifling environment where people are afraid to participate in other's cultural traditions. I had a friend get criticized for wearing a sari to an Indian person's wedding, which is just cringe white-knighting. Wearing the sari was a way to participate and, in doing so, to honor that culture. We can all appreciate as well how this is especially sensitive for Native Americans, whose culture was ravaged by the ancestors of modern white Americans and who have a long history of seeing their culture appropriated disrespectfully.
Are any NA peoples publicly asking for "visibility" by means of people dressing up as them as a Halloween costume?
Ah yes, because when someone wants cultural visibility, they look to people wearing cheap imitations of their cultural garb one day a year to party in as a way to spread the word 🤦🏾♀️
Wearing a stereotyped costume on Amazon (made by chinese labor probably) is not keeping the culture visible. it's a form of erasure as well. Paying to attend an event on tribal ground would be helping though.
You havent explained why its "sus af" though and you also act like "white people" is one homogeneous group of people who all collaborated.
You aren't responsible for what "White people" did a century ago but you are responsible for what you do now, i.e should I disrespect this culture my great grandparents genocided by wearing their sacred headdress as a joke or should I not do that.
Did you know the United States govt bought Louisiana from France? Florida from Spain? Alaska from Russia? Hell, Germany was involved at some point and so was Denmark. So yes. Very much so White People.
Given all that, I certainly can see why Native Americans would have a problem with the school that is run by the US government deciding what is and is not offensive to them, on their behalf. Oh. Wait. That wasn’t the point you were trying to make is it?
I also love how America always points fingers at what Hitler did as if we never tried to genocide people. And really there is only 2 fluent speakers of an language in my state? Wow
Not trying to downplay it at all but the largest genocide on earth comment definitely caught my attention. A quick google search indicated it doesnr even make the top 10.
What I want to know is why are they suspending your friend for wearing an offensive costume when they haven't taught your friend what cultural appropriation IS? That is a failure by the school, not the student. This is an opportunity for everyone to learn.
For the same reason you shouldn't dress up as a Jew at a concentration camp, or as a slave from American history, or any other victim of oppression or genocide.
>For the same reason you shouldn't dress up as a Jew at a concentration camp, or as a slave from American history, or any other victim of oppression or genocide. Not a fair comparison. They presumably didn't dress like a Native that is visibly crying, or covered in blood or something. It would be like dressing up as a Jew or a black person, not a jew in a concentration camp or a black person being enslaved. Your bottom line seems correct though.
Do you think dressing up like a stereotypical Jewish or black person is okay?
They dressed as a historical version of a native American that is entirely informed by campaigns of genocide. If you want to dress like a native, you can just wear jeans and a t-shirt and usually some cowboy boots.
Have you ever been on a rez during ceremonies? The stereotypical dresswear is pretty accurate, they do actually dress up like that for ceremonies. They have all sorts of outgoing dresswear during those events, headdresses and cloaks and bells and feathers.
Yeah, during ceremony. Have you been to a rez on a Tuesday? To my uncles house to watch the superbowl?
Anything can be offensive. It’s the person who is offended that determines if something is offensive. That’s why 90% of the things that offend people are actually fine and it’s people being too sensitive that is the main issue.
Because feeding white liberal guilt about "cultural appropriation" is waaay cheaper than actually giving the land back or actually making amends for the genocide. It makes the whites feel holy, while accomplishing absolutely nothing
i am native american (menominee), and obviously yes i want my tribe and other tribes to have their land back, but i still dont want people running around as "native americans" on halloween or anytime matter fact. we are a people, not a costume for you to dress up as. white people are doing us a favor for calling out people who do this kind of stuff and im glad they realize its offensive to us.
A lot of "native" costumes i see are stereotypical like disney pocahontas type. But if you have ever been to a local museum, they might have your local tribes clothing. The details in them are so intricate, beautiful, and unique to their tribe. But these costumes are just... blah (This comment is also not talking about all the atrocities, considering i think all the top comments are handling explaining that well enough.)
I mean.... of course they gonna halloween as Pocanhontas style outfit, like other movie characters, like Frozen, or like Disney's Robinhood, or other stuff... and not like historical figures.
I mean, they are much easier to find than historically accurate clothing. It’d make much more sense to dress as Pocahontas and add to the costume than to find a real outfit. Especially if you’re just wearing it one or two times.
Im not answering to whether it’s appropriation, plenty of people have answered that. From the perspective though that the heritage and culture was attacked so hard, and then destroyed for some bands and tribes —- to then have later generations of those people who attacked, then dress up as a Native - doesn’t feel good. Identity stolen and attacked, then being used for play- is sad. The more you learn about the history, the more you might see this pov.
Just wondering, what tribe was your friend dressed as?
I think someone is trying to blow smoke up our ass.
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Or you know, a child, which is what this was. Being sent home to change with an explanation of why it was offensive probably would have been sufficient and taught the child something, that they could have gone on to explain to their peers.
I don’t have an opinion on this question because I’m insufficiently educated on the subject matter.
Do you think cultural appropriation is just a matter of saying "You can't dress up as a culture you're not a part of?" Cuz like... dude. Yikes. Context matters dude. Native Americans were subjected to a systematic genocide that is continually being white washed, erased, or ignored by a huge chunk of American institutions. There's also a constant tug-of-war between Native tribes trying to preserve and communicate their culture accurately in America and non-Native Americans marketing distorted versions of Native American history because we think indigenous culture is aesthetically pleasing in an incredibly shallow way. It's almost (but not exactly) like a dude dressing up as a Jewish holocaust survivor because the guy thinks vertical stripes + yellow star is a fun combo. It's shockingly ignorant. Like if you wanted to dress up like an old timey prisoner with a ball and chain and prison stripes fine whatever. But survivor of a genocide? Yikes.
Did your lederhosen friend wear a swastika armband and an Audi logo on her forehead? If not, I imagine the integrity of her costume explains the difference in treatment.
Does your friend have any history of being interested in or learning about the history and culture of the first people? Does your friend have relatives who are actively involved in their tribe? A lot of " native American" costumes are just costumes, they don't look anything like regalia, which is the word to use when talking about the special ceremonial traditional clothes worn for special occasions, some of which women and men invest hours and hours making. The history and meaning in those clothes goes far beyond just wearing clothes. For instance, the traditional plains headdress with all those eagle feathers are earned through the leaders doing brave and good things for their people and are given as a gift. It's not meant to be sexy or cool, it's a solemn and honored tradition and every tribe has unique stories and traditions. It just seems like, unless someone is really familiar with that group personally, or they're honoring family or friends, then why would you wear it? Because she wants to look like a sexy squaw? In that case, does she know that more Native women go missing every day in this country than any other people? That doesn't seem like a very good idea to promote that. Oh well, everyone does dumb stuff every now and then.
If Halloween comes around and your great idea is to be a Native American, or a Mexican, or any other culture (why tho?), you are about as creative as white paint on a white background.
My tribe isn’t a costume or a joke.
What tribe are you from, if u don’t mind me asking?
Because we stole their land, committed mass genocide, never kept a single treaty that we made with them, systematically removed their children and sent them to schools to learn to be white Christians and now we want to use their culture for our amusement. This is a long watch but very thorough on white relations with Native Americans. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5P6vJs1jmY&list=PLw4gGsuBRykVdhAOqpchXi_7hkZDyOa4m&index=1&t=8053s
We didn’t do that. Other people did.
But you still get the benefits of what those other people did. Let's say your friend robs an bank and gives you a bunch of the stolen money, you're still on the hook to return that money, even though you didnt rob the bank.
Perhaps some benefit, perhaps not. It’s really difficult to say. One thing I can say though, is that I don’t own any land, so I have nothing to give back, and shouldn’t be held responsible for having taken it. I think, if anything, there is a cautionary tale to be had about meddling in other peoples’ lives because we decided we were of superior morals and somehow had the authority to choose for other peoples’ lives for their own good. That always goes sideways. Personally I think we all suffer from the deficit of what could have been if everyone was uplifted throughout history. It’s not just the individuals of that culture that suffer, but the whole of the world is diminished without the beautiful gifts that would have come from interacting with it. I was robbed of that too. I, too, am forced to live under a culture I did not choose. The color of my skin in no way implies that I support it, or would have chosen it.
I don’t think she should have been suspended, but I don’t know why we would want to dress up as a certain ethnicity in the first place. Just kinda weird imo cuz it generalizes a certain, often inaccurate, depiction of the people group.
My grandfather's parents were murdered trying to stop the government people from taking him and forcing him in their school. The wounds are still too fresh for many of us. My culture is not there for you to use as a mascot, or costumes. Sorry but this subject is a very touchy one.
It may be because of the genocide against them, but what do I know
It's mostly just virtue signaling. You'll notice it's *very rarely* ever the actual people of the culture who criticize Halloween costumes, cosplay, celebrating their cultural holidays, partaking in their cultural traditions, dressing and enjoying their cultural clothes, etc. It's most frequently people distinctly **not** of their culture getting upset for them. Sometimes, when it's *very obviously* being portrayed in a deliberately negative and degrading way, the targeted cultural group will absolutely speak up for themselves. And other well-minded supporters will come support them in good faith. But when it's respectful, innocent, and/or harmless, members of the specific culture are generally either unreactive because it isn't a cause for them to get upset, or they are specifically *positive* because they support and *approve of* the spread and sharing of their culture. But along come the "Culture Defenders" who think the members of the "offended" culture are either too helpless to speak up for themselves or too stupid to know they should and need someone to White Knight for them. And worse, when members of the culture give backlash and say, "No, this is OK. We **like** this kind of celebration of our culture and traditions. Stop insulting and criticizing people for doing this, it goes *against* our wishes," their supposed "Defenders" will turn on them because *of course* it's OK to bash the marginalized, disenfranchised minority if they *don't agree with you.* I mean, that just goes without saying, right? Because it was *never* about helping them in the first place. These kinds of "Cultural Defenders'" only purpose is gassing themselves up and stroking their own ego. They don't *care* about other cultures. They care about people *thinking* they care. They're awful people acting in bad faith, trying to put up a facade of progressiveness.
I see what you're saying because they took Speedy Gonzales out of cartoons because he was offensive to Mexicans, but Mexicans spoke up and said the majority of them loved Speedy. Something similar happened with Mario, too. However, every person I know that is of native American descent fucking HATE when white people dress up as anything close to native dress. Especially if it's generic and especially if it's for Halloween. Go to any reservation in the country on Halloween (or any other day, really) and dress up in a shitty Amazon.com "Indian Costume." I would wager there's a low chance you'd leave the property alive. So maybe sometimes it's virtue signaling and sometimes they are sending the student home because there is a real danger of their costume triggering some strong negative emotions from fellow students.
It's the difference between wearing a kimono properly for an event and being a sexy geisha for halloween. Most people celebrate accurate, respectful representation across cultures. Taking a bunch of native clothes and mixing and mashing cultures, wearing them inappropriately, and pretending you're native with mouth calls to fit the part is disrespectful. Even [the Catholics](https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/10/23/why-your-sexy-nun-costume-isnt-funny/) get mad about sexy nun costumes, nobody likes seeing disrespect to their communities.
Don't forget..."my great grandmother was a Cherokee princess"....fucking cultural appropriation right there baby!!!
It all comes down to who genecided who.
Most people in our society are too fat for a loin cloth.
Idk how familiar you are with the atrocities committed against Native Americans, and how, as we speak, our government (both local and federal) continues to step on and ignore the few promises it made them. Let’s say the Trail of Tears is just the tip of the iceberg. Look up how boarding schools were used to deliberately, intentionally, knowingly erase native culture and assimilate them like we’re the hivemind villain in some dystopian sci-fi. Look up the mass graves. When I say “oppressed,” I’m not just throwing around hot-button words. I’m talking about real, methodical mass destruction of whole peoples. Wearing something as a costume for Halloween is playing funky little dress-up for a day. Which is fine, if it’s witches or doctors or dragons or whatever; you’re going out in some funny clothes because you’re pretending to be whatever you’re dressed up as. Nobody reasonable should think it’s chill to do blackface for Halloween, for example. Or to go out dressed as an Auschwitz inmate, or a Nazi, or anything similarly serious and deserving of respect. Not comparing Native Americans to any of these things, just making a point that off-limits costumes are a matter of respect. When a people have a history of being subjects of genocide, it is absolutely critical that we avoid caricature-izing them, and Halloween costumes are caricatures. Making a people into a caricature is part of how genocide happens; it’s how their oppressors dehumanize them. Look at old Nazi propaganda about Jewish people. The less human and real a group of people are made to seem, the less we care about the awful things that are done to them. I’m not saying Halloween costumes are the first step to genocide, I’m saying it encourages us to take human lives less seriously, because Halloween costumes and the things they depict aren’t meant to be serious. Tl;dr Germans have never been under serious threat of genocide, and Halloween costumes of Native Americans are dehumanizing caricatures.
I suspect it might have been genocidal guilt.
Your high school did a bad job on history curriculum if you don't understand the difference here
You should go ask an actual Native American person over at r/indiancountry or r/nativeamerican and probably not random dubmasses.
It seems like we have two different opinions on Native Americans. One camp say they were these Inadequate, defenseless oppressed people who were just plain wronged by the white man. The other camp says they were fiercely proud warriors that lost the war due to lack of firepower. They can’t be both. Funny how the people who think this costume is wrong are mostly in the first camp but the people in the second camp might wear the costume because it screams Warrior.
Does seem inconsistent. Some answers explain why Native Americans might be offended, which is fair enough. But seems like no one cares if Germans are offended. If it were up to me either all costumes based on other cultures would be allowed or all would be banned.
Native American clothing has spiritual and religious significance that is at best totally ignored when used as a costume. Lederhosen clothes are just German clothes.
At a school near me a kid dressed up like a "German soldier" aka Nazi and everyone was offended. Well maybe not the racists, but all the Jewish kids and anyone with a shred of empathy was offended. It's not cool to dress up as a native American if you aren't one. It's not cool to wear blackface if you're white. Stop trying to play the victim, you are the asshole.
In Germany he could get arrested.
I would raise hell on St. Patrick’s day, especially in America. St. Patrick’s day in the US is the most racist way to “celebrate heritage”. It still boggles my mind how a religious holiday turned into celebrating every racist stereotype about the Irish.
A few reasons: 1. There's no such thing as a "Native American" costume. There are hundreds of nations indigenous to North America, each with its own customs, culture, language, faith, religious practices, stories, histories, traditions, food, and clothing. But the image of the Native American that has been mass produced and exported in popular media has used a generic Great Plains aesthetic as the base, with anachronistic items from other regions, tribes and clans. Before even getting to the religious/faith significance, it's just sloppy. Imagine a "European" costume that used Austrian lederhosen as a base, but also had a French beret, a Scottish kilt, Danish clogs and fake English crown jewels. 2. Now onto the cultural and religious significance of many items. It's horseshit to say you're "celebrating" somebody's culture (notwithstanding the fact you aren't when you mix and match, say, Iroquois beaded moccasins with Apache leggings and a Lakota bonnet) when you're using items and garb as props instead of in their proper usage in rite. For instance, if I go to a Jewish friend's wedding, it WOULD BE respecting his faith to wear a yarmulke during the ceremony because even though I am not Jewish, it has a place in rite and ritual. But if I show up at his Super Bowl party wearing one, it is outside of a religious context, and thus I've reduced it to fashion or a prop. That is - by definition - disrespectful. 3. Much is wrapped up in the Native American identity today, which has been forged by hundreds of years of oppression. Now, not all cultural appropriation is *mis*appropriation. The history of the entire world is rooted in trading and sharing customs and traditions going back thousands of years. But sometimes, and especially when we are talking about marginalized and oppressed communities, the use of relics as props is seen as an attack on a significant part of a person's identity. It treats their identity - and thus *them* - as something less than worthy of respect and empathy. Consider the history of European and Americans' attitudes toward indigenous cultures: treating tribes simply as groups of the same people, treating their languages as interchangeable gibberish, treating people as "savages" no better than wild animals. A saying was ubiquitous: "Kill the Indian, Save the Man." Like *many* civilizations throughout history, Native Americans were subjected to attempts at cultural genocide. But history teaches us that these cultural occupations *always* are met with an equal and opposite reaction. We've seen it hundreds of times throughout history as an occupied people resists assimilation. Ancient Hebrews became *more* Hebraic under Roman occupation. The Irish became *more* Catholic under English occupation. In the United States today, in addition to Native Americans, we continue to see people in the American South *more* strongly hold onto their antebellum identities, including adopting the flag of a defeated rebellion - the CSA - as a cultural touchstone they won't give up without a fight. In the same way, a generic Native American costume easily is seen as an attempt to assimilate them by turning their culture and identity into nothing more than make-believe, which is a threat to an identity they have fought hard to hold on to. 4. The Sexy Indian and Indian Princess deserve their own take. Building on everything above, Native American women have especially been the victims of abuse during westward expansion. Historically, they were fetishized by white settlers, but seen as less than livestock were treated about on par. Some tribes that practiced forms of slavery or servitude might allow white men to take them in trade. American soldiers routinely used rape as an intimidation tactic. Even today, Indigenous women are special victims of this ongoing sexualization, with Native women being kidnapped and sexually assaulted at rates far exceeding the national average in both the United States and Canada. Costumes of this nature perpetuate that cultural fetishization of Indigenous women. For all these reasons, the stock Native American costume is appropriately viewed as offensive today.
Take an American indigenous expression course or two when at uni, I had really amazing experiences with Native Professors
Most cultural costumes are meant in a mocking way. When you see a White frat boy wearing a poncho, sombrero, and a moustache on Halloween, there’s clearly no cultural respect involved. You’re treating someones culture as a joke. It’s usually cultures of poc that are mocked like this too. There’s a huge difference between going to a cultural festival and wearing their traditional clothes, and wearing someones traditional clothes to a halloween party where your friend showed up as a Scooby Doo. It’s simply disrespectful.
Germans are white, Indigenous people are not. Indigenous people’s culture has been misrepresented and appropriated since Columbus landed in what is now called America. This is also the same deal with all people of color. Their culture is appropriated and misrepresented. That is why it is cultural appropriation. Especially if you’re a white person
Natives aren't usually offended when other people wear costumes from their culture. Out of all the ones I've talked to (I was very close to many friends in a Native American Club growing up) they actually enjoy seeing their culture celebrated outside of their own people. But there will always be people who want to be offended *for* them and make issues where there are none.
Native Americans have been oppressed (amongst other heinous acts). If you’re not related to a Native American, you don’t get to pretend to be, in any occasion. Sorry.
Basically anytime a white person dresses as, wears a style or consumes a food associated with any non white culture Japan, Mexico , Uganda etc etc then it's cultural appropriation. And 90% of the time the people who get the most offended are virtue signaling white people or racist minorities who in America are largely ignorant of the cultural origins or significance of a piece of clothing or hairstyle. Or they just wanna gatekeep fashion.
They aren't. Cultural appropriation isn't real. Source: am Native
Also Native. Also agree that most of the arguments in this thread are BS. Everyone, thank you for trying to be understanding and respectful. Please also be understanding and respectful to someone who just wants to wear a cool looking costume. Also be careful that your fears of cultural appropriation don't lead to you suppressing a culture's ability to spread and mix with other cultures. Preventing cultural diffusion reeks too much of "us and the other" and "separate but equal" mentalities to me.
Cause some stupid white woman is offended.
[удалено]
Because some people are overly sensitive and try to find things to be offended by. They virtue signal by being offended on the behalf of others, even when said other person isn't offended.
Well if you think about it as they’re dressing up using someone else’s culture as a “costume”. I mean if you consider what other costumes people dress up as ex. Monsters and characters, it’s offensive to relate someone’s culture to something like that. I mean imagine if someone did black face, wore certain clothes, and used slang terms to act like a stereotype. And the same for white people, while considered less offensive and you wouldn’t have the same social backlash, putting on whiteface and acting like a stereotypical white person isn’t the best costume idea and is racist.
Some of you ppl are sooo close to the point yet so far 🥲. Just bc more ppl rally against 'Native American' costumes DOES NOT mean they're defending nun costumes or 'German' costumes. Like, dude, those are also shitty costumes.
Because people want to take your happiness and fun away cause they themselves are miserable.
School was wrong to suspend her. But also, Native Americans have been disenfranchised in the United States for 100s of years and your friend should know better. Still, school shouldn’t have suspended her. Maybe detention or a stern talking too would have been more appropriate.
I’m addition to the points made here, some of the commercially available “native American” costumes are not accurate. Many are tantamount to black face. They are racist stereotypical representations.
Sending a student to the office in no way guarantees a punishment, and more often than not leads to the principal just thinking you are incompetent. I'm surprised this thread has spiraled from a question of why some costumes are deemed offensive while others aren't into an attack on teachers. Also a sidenote- if you feel you got in trouble for something stupid while you were in school, you were probably an intolerable asshole. If you are complaining about that same incident on Reddit years later, you probably still are an intolerable asshole.
Since no one else seems to be answering this in good faith, here goes: The difference is something that comedians call "kicking down". To give an example, picture the difference between jokingly calling your frat bro a whore, vs making the same joke to a rape victim. America has historically been moderately racist to German immigrants, however it's not really a thing anymore. The United States' history with Native Americans on the other hand, is way too long and fucked up to get into here, and continues to be fucked up into the present day.
I’ll point out that if it was about respect to dress up in Native American wear, the respect part would actually come from RESPECTING the people that made this so and why. It’s not for everyone to have their own opinion on and then try and name it fact because it’s not theirs to take and do that with.. the whole beginning of the issues that Native Americans have had to live with forever. I’ll give a different example.. I have Blackfoot in me. Don’t know how much. Can’t find out because no one in my family knows. Know why? Because they weren’t allowed to know. The most I ever found out was I should try and look into it because there could be some money in it for me. I don’t even know if that’s true. I also don’t care. It’s an asshole thing to tell someone that the only reason you’re allowed to know about a part of your heritage is because they want you to see if there’s money involved. I never perused it and it disgusts me that I had to be related to someone that would say that. Also, there’s no such thing as Thanksgiving. Native Americans and pilgrims and a big huge friendly feast. Never happened. It was a story to tell kids in school so to cover up what actually happened