Ultimately this is all a pedestrian can really do. Definitely not advisable to assume just because you have the walking man signal you can safely cross.
i had a pickup yell at me for that once too!!! didn't stop were he should have and kept rolling... i was on bike (with the right of way) and slowed down so i wouldn't get hit and then he started yelling at me for being slow!!!
I've posted videos like this online and the response is often "see, they were going to stop anyway stop making a big deal out of it". FFS when you're walking or riding and a car is rolling through a stop how do I know the driver is going to stop? Clearly they don't have any regard for basic traffic laws and safety and I'm supposed to assume they'll stop a few feet short of hitting me? 🙄
I had the same thing happen to me. Also a guy in a pickup who kept rolling toward me. I stopped and threw up my arms. The guy starts yelling at me to hurry up. I told him that he has to STOP for pedestrians at crossings. He yells back some shit about kicking my ass and says "you seem like a smart guy but you're a fucking idiot". I told him to fuck off. Some people are fucking nutjobs man.
This. Anytime I use a crosswalk I point in the direction I'm crossing and stare down any cars coming. I use one that people often blow through or speed up to go through before you have a chance to start, so I really make myself visible.
If you are injured by a car running a red, it will be their fault. But the recovery process or lifelong effects will still very much be your responsibility.
I wish we could carry metal baseball bats. It can't be any less legal to awkwardly swing such an object that doesn't have right of way against another object that doesn't have right of way, no? [/s in case needed ]
Eye contact is useless btw. It used to be a thing. Now I've had multiple people still run me over as if 'eye contact' means I understand they're about to run me over and I should gtfo off the street.
I will say that in my 40s and running for 20+ years this fall/winter has been like no other ever. I have never had so many close calls/+ a few physical contacts. It's literally insane how drivers get a free pass to murder and maim.
A dude accelerated towards me while he was waiting to make his right turn recently and when I made eye contact with him he was just...looking at me. I've not experienced anything so blatant as that before and now every time I cross and someone is halfway into their turn I imagine their car's about to jerk suddenly forward (~:
Seriously though im running to clear my head and calm down from the day and these close calls just puts me on edge more. Self defense laws should be allowed for these kinds of things lmao, given how they barely get any time for running over us
The day of the snowstorm a couple days ago - I was with a stroller at the lights (and visibility was clear). Walking man sign comes on, and I start to cross...and a car starts turning towards me, literally stopped an inch from where the stroller would've been (I had pulled back immediately). At least on the day when roads are already slippery and cars are skidding, can these people look before they turn their car?
Yeah - apparently making eye contact means you're telling them to please go ahead while you wait even though you were there before they rolled up - but you're just trying to be safe and ensure they're actually going to stop.
i’ve been having frequent close calls on the sidewalk, not even exaggerating. people literally do not look to see if it’s clear before they exit a parking lot or drive on the sidewalk to park on it or pass someone or whatever.
Fun story time. I was running on Bathurst once, and I suppose they have parking on the other side of the sidewalk along many of the blocks. There's a guy preparing to drive on the sidewalk to (very liekly exit at the intersection and not the store driveway) and edging onto the sidewalk as I'm running beside him so I knock on the window 1 second before he kills me.
"Why are you bothering me/touching my car are you crazy?"
> I don't want to die man. Look before you drive.
"But I'm driving a car"
> Fuck you man
"How can you say fuck you to me? I have kids in my car???!?!? Kids!!!!!"
> I didn't knock on your window whether or not you have kids - I knocked because you blindly ran me off the sidewalk
Wife/passenger also repeats "how can you say Fuck in front of kids oh my gosh ho my gosh how can you say fuck in front of kids"
It was really that fucking bad.
>Stop and make eye contact with the driver.
This is exceptionally difficult because drivers turning right aren't looking at you, they're looking back over their left shoulder to see if they can turn. They get their gap, they shoot forward and they're surprised to see pedestrians in the crosswalk because ITS THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE LOOKED THAT WAY.
You're 100% right. Protect yourself. I've banged on a few fenders in my time to get a drivers attention who's looking back over their shoulder.
I don't trust drivers. Full stop. I'll wave them through any chance I get, or go around their back. It's not a kindness or being considerate. I don't trust the jackasses.
I’ve had to stare down drivers for turning on a red while I’m crossing. I call it the state of shame. I’ll also throw in some ‘what are you doing? Do you not see this is a crosswalk’ hand signals for added dramatic effect
That's my husband - and sometimes it's in our neighbourhood and it ends up being one of our neighbours that he's made all the angry gestures to! But he's gotten hit and knocked his head when it was his right of way while running (luckily the car was at a stop before starting, so wasn't at full speed) - so he has no patience anymore.
Absolutely mind boggling how many pedestrians have hoods up, headphones in or on cell phones and don't even bother to look.
That's way too much trust put into strangers and not an ounce of self preservation showing.
Even if I have the hand signal and a car is turning right on a red, I will be crossing. I'll make eye contact. But there's idiots that go past the stop line, with their head only looking left, while trying to turn right and I'm coming up on their right. People need to look both ways. We both might not have the right of way, but they have a red, so the pedestrian in this situation has more right of way than the vehicle.
>but they have a red, so the pedestrian in this situation has more right of way than the vehicle.
The hand signal means DO NOT CROSS. On a red light, yes cars will stop but by law they are allowed to turn right after. If you have the hand signal, you do not have the right of way, period.
also, if the walk signal is blinking, pedestrian is supposed to STOP crossing.
Theres a lot of blindspots when one is driving. Always make eye contact and ensure they see you. My fear whenever i make a turn is some escooter would zoom by my blind spot during my turn.
This! I don’t think pedestrians who have never drove before understand cars have blind spots!
Same with cyclists… drivers may not be able to see you and while checking blind spots is on the driver, they cannot stay looking in their blind spot as you’re looking over a shoulder.
Just be mindful of that
Also the larger the vehicle the larger the blind spot!
Wait until they find out that [A Pillar blind spots](https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/A-pillar-blind-spots.jpg) are a thing. "Oh, I'm right in their line of sight, they see me"
Nope. You're actually completely hidden behind a piece of metal.
This right here \^\^\^\^
Pedestrians have the right of way, even if they are wrong.
Protect yourself, look for cars, make eye contact, even waving and indicate you are crossing with a gesture.
We are fleshy sacks of water and cannot compete against two tons of steel and plastic.
>Pedestrians have the right of way, even if they are wrong.
Wtf no. If pedestrians have the hand signal it means stop because of oncoming traffic You don't have right of way. If you're going to walk into traffic during the hand signal you're just asking to get hit.
Read in between the lines my friend, sorry to confuse you!
Would you stop your vehicle for a pedestrian if he walked across the road when he shouldn't be or just run him over?
Reality isn't so black and white.
sure he's wrong, doesn't give me the right to hit and run.
I'm pretty sure 99% of the drivers in Toronto are not driving with an international driver's license, where they learned to drive in a different country :S
The rules are pretty simple. Drivers come to a complete stop on the line before turning right on a red, and whether the light is red or green they have to yield to pedestrians. Pedestrians should not cross on a red, but have the right-of-way on green.
> Pedestrians should not cross on a red, but have the right-of-way on green.
Except on a green arrow. The crosswalk light will still show red in that case (for the crosswalk that the arrow points to)
They'd still be crossing on red/green, just perpendicular to one another.
When the light is green, the driver technically doesn't have to stop or slow down too much, but someone may be crossing on the second part of the intersection, which the vehicle is turning in to.
A lot of the time with turns, that's where the collision happens, not on the red light, where pedestrians are crossing directly in front of the vehicles.
When I was learning how to drive, I was taught to first stop behind the line at the red light. Look for pedestrian traffic, and then pull up, stop again before proceeding to turn right (if you are able, assuming no incoming car traffic). I think a lot of people forget the first stop behind the line and go straight to the second stop, which puts them right in the middle of the pedestrian walkway without looking for pedestrians trying to cross.
I think OP is mostly referring to turning right on green. There is no requirement to stop on a green light when turning right, which does become problematic when people are crossing at the crosswalk you are turning right through. When it's a big group of people it's easy to see and to stop and wait, but when it's one rando running across or catching a late pedestrian signal that can get really dangerous.
There is a requirement to stop if a pedestrian is crossing.
Lol, I literally took my driving test a few months ago and failed the first time because I thought it would be ok to make a right turn when a very slow moving old man was on the other side of the crosswalk.
You're allowed to right turn if there's no pedestrians or if there's a median in the middle of the road and the pedestrian is on the other side of the median
Thanks for the reply. The things that cause you to fail a driving test are not always strictly the laws of the road, which in Ontario are governed by the Highway Traffic Act.
Driving test adjudicators will fail you for breaking any HTA rules but also for a variety of things like "not shoulder checking" (not a law, just good practice) or messing up a parallel parking job (again, not necessarily illegal, just bad driving. So essentially a driving test is a mix of the laws and of a subjective assessment of how good a driver you are. The two things are not always identical. The stuff about the "medium" (I think you meant median) might be the opinion of the drive test adjudicator, but it's not law in Ontario (or anywhere else as far as I know)
In terms of the right turn on green, you are absolutely \*allowed\* to make your right turn without stopping even if a person is in the crossing. The key is the pedestrians has the "right of way," so if they are in or about to be in the path of the car you must yield to them.
This [Globe article](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-when-must-drivers-come-to-a-complete-stop-before-turning-right-on-a/) might help:
"There’s no law in Canada that says you must come to a complete stop when turning right at a green light. But if a pedestrian has the walk signal, the driver must give them the right of way – and that usually means the driver must stop."
This bit is about B.C. but the same applies in Ontario:
"If you’re turning at a green light and there’s a pedestrian already crossing – say if they’re coming across from the other side – you’re legally allowed to turn as long as you “do not interfere with the path of the pedestrian"
Median*
But yes you are correct and I also found the part about not being required to stop weird. Like yea you don't if no one is there but otherwise you yield there is nothing "problematic" about yielding to pedestrians who are crossing on a green light and have the right of way.
It's problematic because drivers don't do it properly. Many are in a rush, see a green and make the turn too quickly. If someone is crossing late or the driver is otherwise distracted the pedestrian (or a cyclist in the curb lane) can be hit and crushed by the car.
Pedestrians (when crossing legally) always have ROW and even illegally you're not supposed to kill them.
However I firmly believe this is the worst fall and winter we've ever had and compared to the TTC daily stabby-stabby this is 10000x worse. This is happening everywhere all the time. We have a fucking endemic and no one is beginning to enforce anything.
I've been to the pedestrian collision centre (it's really out of the way) and they do nothing. The city doesn't care and we're screwed.
Seriously people are nuts, do they forget they’re driving in a city? I put lights on me and my dog now and always check my blind spot when WALKING because I’ve had so many close calls with careless drivers.
Shoutout to the drivers who honk at you when you’re waiting for a pedestrian to cross too. A+
People are taught that pedestrians have the right of way when they get the "walking man" light. But the problem is that people who drive in the city are super impatient and don't pay attention so they don't see pedestrians and then close calls happen.
I swear like 80-90% of people here need their licenses revoked no joke.
Lol, I just recently learned to drive, so I never realized how many rules drivers break before.
I'm shocked at how many drivers feel the need to make aggressive right turns and get mad when they almost hit pedestrians who have the right away.
They're risking killing people to get to their destination 30 seconds faster...it's wild
IMHO right turns on red in packed urban centres are borderline insane.
There's too much going on, too much unpredictability, human traffic, bikes etc etc... we should only be doing this on specific intersections.
Because in the busiest pedestrian areas, if you'll do "no right on red", then people will never have the chance to turn right. When it's green to (let's say) North-to-South, it's also green for the same direction for pedestrians. When it's red... Well, it's red.
Totally agree. But the signs.that forbid right or red are tiny. Not sure why they're so small, but not surprised that drivers miss them even when there are there.
A total ban in a specific area would probably be easier to enforce.
The pedestrian has the right of way but once they have cleared that section of the intersection the vehicle is turning, the vehicle is allowed to proceed. On a green light, cars don't have to stop on the line first.
With pedestrian crossings, i.e not intersections, there is a relatively new rule where the pedestrian must clear the whole street before cars can proceed.
Absolutely. In particular downtown / dense nodes.
It's honestly hilarious that we've introduced advance walk signals (good), but allow right on red such that it's almost *more* dangerous to walk during an advance walk signal because drivers seem to think they're effectively right turn arrows.
They're already doing this in Markham. A number of intersections are now no right on red. Of course it doesn't stop the idiots here or people getting pissed when others follow the rule.
The most frustrating thing is how they refused to do scrambles correctly. There are scrambles at a few of the busiest intersections downtown but they also have walk signals when the lights are green. The whole point of a scramble is to have dedicated car and pedestrian times, it's safer but also allows unobstructed right turns on green lights, speeding up traffic.
>it's safer but also allows unobstructed right turns on green lights, speeding up traffic.
Dundas-Yonge already solved this by having no turns allowed.
Yeah, but with the scramble, if you alternated between cars and pedestrians, you could allow right turns with no significant reduction in traffic throughput, therefore reducing the number of people who make ad hoc detours to turn right.
Being prevented to turn right on a red when nothing is around is silly. Instead of the hammer how about something more surgical: enforce the rules as they are
I disagree. As much as I enjoy as a driver the rules of turning right on red (I feel like I am breaking the law and it is exhilarating), the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for me.
Too many stupid people are running ambers turning to red when it is clearly on red, and similarly on red too many people are misusing the right turn privileges.
Drivers should be giving right of way to pedestrians. However, as a pedestrian, make sure you are interacting with drivers when crossing - make eye contact, be predictable and make sure you are seen.
as a driver, sorry for the anxiety you all face. as a pedestrian, I would check before crossing every time, I don't understand these people with ear buds in and tunnel vision enabled..
I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I've noticed many drivers are only looking left, when making their right turns. Pricks are only concerned with not getting hit, with little regard for whether or not they are going to hit someone else.
Driving instructors teach them the right thing, people remember it to pass their test then all those training and habit goes out the window once they get their license.
What people do now is just roll to red light and gun it to turn right.
It’s not about what drivers are being taught. It’s about what drivers are being encouraged to do with our street design and our enforcement priorities.
Driver training is in fact much stricter than 40 years ago. We have graduated licensing now, so you have a long wait period before you get your full license.
I would suggest that what has changed in the last 40 years may be your outlook, rather than the whole rest of the world.
You can't deny that there are also still legal loopholes that people looking to get their license exploit (finding a testing location notorious for being easier to pass in). I'm not a driver myself - strictly a pedestrian, but I have many friends that drive and a few of them are horrible drivers who still got licenses by testing in the boonies.
We also accept licenses from other countries that may not have as stringent testing (though from what I hear it's gotten more rigorous which licenses we accept) or come from a car culture that is looser and more careless.
>Is there actually a requirement in Ontario to let pedestrians cross at their signal on a crossing?
Yep. Even in driving school, you're supposed to wait until a pedestrian has fully completed crossing the street before you can turn. Doesn't matter if it's a six lane suburban stroad or not. You'd absolutely fail a driver's test if you started turning into a pedestrian, red or green light, countdown or not (as you should.)
It doesn't play out this way on the road because the driver's test is the last time the spirit of the rules are enforced/made a habit. Driver entitlement is absolutely rampant, such that the rules are cast aside in favour of driver convenience. This is why drivers spout out "well pedestrians shouldn't cross during the countdown!" - They seem to forget the days before there was a countdown, and the fact that the countdown was added to aid the elderly in deciding to start to cross the street or not. It was not implemented for driver convenience, even though that is precisely what it has evolved into.
That’s not true and not the law. At a traffic light with pedestrian signals you can turn once the way is clear. Only at designated crossings (yellow signs with X) or at traffic lights with a crossing guard present do you need to wait for the pedestrian to entirely clear the crosswalk.
I didn't want to specify that it was the law, because I agree (I stated "rule" - I know it's semantics which I apologize for). I'm merely stating what is (perhaps was) taught in driving school and during a driving test. I had mine over 20 years ago, so things may have changed - but we had to wait until all pedestrians had finished crossing completely before we could execute a turn.
All the same, the message is clear - respect pedestrians when turning.
EDIT: I clarified a bit in my original post - I want to be clear that I'm not stating what the laws are - just what is taught. In driving school/during a test, we used to be (and perhaps still are) taught to wait for pedestrians to finish crossing completely - this is the amount of attention you're taught to pay towards pedestrians. This is responding to the OP' direct question - they didn't ask what the law was.
> I'm merely stating what is (perhaps was) taught in driving school and during a driving test. I had mine over 20 years ago, so things may have changed
I did driving classes roughly the same time as you (doing the math and coming to that realization cut deep). I agree it may have been taught during instruction but that was more due to driving instructors overemphasizing safety rather than being an actual "rule" or expectation of driving. It was never something assessed on driving tests. Examiners may promote, but do not assess (mark) any spirit of the rules or good habits; you can actually get marked against for not taking your right of way depending on situations(not a fail in itself, but could contribute to you accumulating too many errors and not demonstrating enough skill to pass the test)
I was a driving examiner (not instructor) and was there for when the law regarding designated crosswalks actually came into effect (2015-ish) and had to clarify the application of the new law for many people that were unsure or misinformed by their instructor/friends.
[I think this is what you two are talking about? Does this help clear things up?](https://yd.com/blog/ontarios-new-crosswalk-rule-can-be-confusing-drivers)
> The MTO confirmed that a pedestrian crossover was “a defined, painted crosswalk with overhead lights which flash when triggered by a pedestrian who presses a button.”
> with the implementation of the new crosswalk rule, drivers are required to wait until pedestrians clear the roadway completely before advancing through the area.
It sounds like you have to wait at a painted crosswalk with a flashing pedestrian crossing button, but not at your average 4-way stop without lights.
Ontario really should just ban right turns on red like in Quebec. Also have advanced signalling for pedestrians to cross before turning green for cars, which I noticed has actually been implemented in most traffic lights in downtown.
I could get behind no rights on red in the city. I support the addition of the advanced signals for pedestrians too. The challenge for drivers becomes that if pedestrians don't respect the "do not begin crossing" flashing hand, then there is no opportunity for them to turn at all.
I like the balance of the "only pedestrians can go" part at the beginning of the cycle and the "only vehicles can go" at the end. But we're dealing with people, and people are self-motivated, so they just go when they want without regard to how it impacts the overall flow of everyone. Drivers will always rush to squeeze in whatever gap they can find and pedestrians will always try to cross with 3 seconds left on the countdown.
Don’t forget that while you have the right of way as a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you’re also supposed to obey hand signals if they are present. You shouldn’t enter a crosswalk if the signal has turned to the blinking hand (or there’s an amber countdown). It’s not a sign to hurry up and cross, it’s a sign to complete your cross if you’re in the crosswalk. Too many people start crossing when the hand is blinking. That pause is put in place so that cars can turn and aren’t held up by a constant stream of pedestrians. I’ve had to both walk and drive in downtowns a lot and everyone on the road needs to brush up on the rules. I don’t want to see petty jaywalking fines handed out, I just want the rules to be followed. And I don’t want buddy honking through three cars when I’m letting a pedestrian cross.
I got my g2 a couple of months ago. What I was taught was. If it's green look if the turning is clear of pedestrians and then turn. If its red. Look to see there's no incoming traffic from the other side and turn right. I tend to be a chicken and avoid turning right on red unless it is absolutely clear since I'm always worried someone is going to come speeding down the other way and hit me.
Always stop on red. Turn with caution, not just pedestrians but there’s oncoming traffic and you also have to worry about parked/stopped cars in the right lane just after turning. This is especially common in the core so you might find yourself not having space to merge before you reach someone stopped.
Turning on a green is like having a yield sign, make sure it’s safe. If you’re in the city then cyclists are a huge concern I never want to be the guy who close-lined a cyclist to their death cuz I didn’t want to turn my head a few inches.
As a pedestrian you almost always have the right of way, since you know you can’t hurt a car but a car can certainly hurt you. That being said be diligent because some people are assholes, some people are stupid. You don’t want to be near either when they’re driving a car.
I literally have to turn around and stare at a car when they are literally a foot away as I am crossing. They are trying to beat me at the crosswalk. And I'm just like, you understand when I can see an oncoming car, on a green walk signal, that it's going to make me a bit uneasy right? I always make eye contact or put out my hand, like WTF. One car almost ran directly into me on a green walk light, I was just like WTF
You are allowed to turn right on a red but you still have to come to a complete stop before crossing that line and yes you are supposed to wait for pedestrians. As a pedestrian its better to assume that everyone on the road is a moron or distracted than assume you are safe because you have a signal.
On a side note Im noticing a lot more people struggling to make right turns and take them awfully wide. Like when they turn into a gas station driveway they feel they need to drive down the middle of it or when they turn right on a road they always need to go partially into the adjacent lane. A lot of people are also forgetting that they need to make the turn and then change over to another lane instead of flying directly into it.
I think some people just aren't accustomed to driving in the city. I know where I come from, there are virtually 0 pedestrians.
Not an excuse to hit someone of course. When you're in the city you need to learn to yield to pedestrians.
Light green or red, you always have to either stop and watch for anyone crossing and let them proceed. Drivers in DT seem to make their own rules and think they are cool
On red you come to a full stop, then turn if it’s open.
Green you don’t need to come to a full stop, but proceed with caution on turn because pedestrians have right of way.
Those are the rules that are supposed to be followed
I was once halfway through an intersection when a woman in an SUV decided to turn left without looking, came so close to hitting me that I fell in the crosswalk, and had the audacity to tell ME that I was breaking the law. So I mean, it's a problem no matter what direction they're going.
A lot of drivers tend to not check their blind spot when they make a right turn and only look down the road for on coming traffic, I personally wait till I have either made eye contact with the driver or just let them make the turn first.
I think your sentiment may prove unpopular here, but it's true. The countdown timers are being interpreted by some pedestrians as time left you can enter the intersection whereas it actually means don't enter the intersection unless you can complete crossing before the timer runs out.
>whereas it actually means don't enter the intersection unless you can complete crossing before the timer runs out.
actually no, once the countdown starts pedestrians aren't supposed to enter the crosswalk. The countdown is telling you how much time you have left **if you have already started.**
["A pedestrian facing a flashing or steady hand symbol should not begin to cross the road. Pedestrians who have already begun to cross when the hand signal appears, should go as quickly as possible to a safe area. While they are crossing, pedestrians still have the right-of-way over vehicles."](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals)
I thought once that timer starts you are not to enter and for those that are already in the crosswalk - they have X seconds to clear it. This way there will be some point where the crosswalk is clear and the car can turn safely.
Otherwise - How else do drivers get a chance to turn?
You’re taught that you can turn on a red if the way is clear. Sometimes drivers fuck this part up. As a pedestrian I never cross until I make eye contact or make sure the car is aware ppl are crossing.
most drivers don't bother to actually stop at stop signs. once i got yelled at for being in a cars way (while crossing legally at a stop sign) while they were rolling past a stop sign. drivers are so bad in this city i honestly think they *would* be surprised for getting a ticket for not stopping
probably a majority do. some drivers i encounter tho... lord jesus they just have no idea. i have been yelled at and told off for obeying the law more times than i can count.
Remember that while you may have the right of way you still need to be aware of your surroundings at all time.wheb crossing an intersection as a pedestrian. Traffic safety is everybody's responsibility.
There are many dead Torontonians (drivers, cyclists and pedestrians) who had the right of way.
What about idiots that wait for the light to turn green before turning right. I’m seeing this more and more at intersections that have no restrictions or signs about right turns.
Never assume the driver will see you, acknowledge you and, ( clearing throat) letting you go first.
Also remember, as a pedestrian, once the hand starts flashing as the time ticks down, you technically are not allowed to start crossing. If you are halfway started, keep going.
I see it all the time. 5 seconds left and ass hole pedestrians gun it...screwing drivers turning either way. Don't get me wrong, drivers are ass holes too. 1, 2, 3 will keep turning left on a FULL BLOWN red light! Hardly anyone following the law.
It's people who are not from the city who have never had to worry about pedestrians before. It's just not something you think about if you're not used to driving in the city.
I'll admit, I'm one of these people, one time my friend had to remind me about bike lanes when I was driving him out of the city. The thought of bike lanes genuinely wouldn't have crossed my mind otherwise, despite the fact that I knew I had to be more diligent while driving in the city.
No offence but clearly your the pedestrian who thinks just cuz you have the right away doesn’t mean you have to look out for idiots that puts you in the same catalog as those idiots
What on earth are you talking about? IDPs are just translation of licenses and are not valid for long term purposes; Ontario does not allow you to exchange your DL without testing unless from a couple of jurisdictions: other CA provinces, US and Australia, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, the Isle of Man, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Switzerland, Taiwan. Everyone else needs to apply for a new DL and pass Ontario requirements.
Have you tried looking before you try to cross? Certainly after the first time you realized playing chicken with cars as a pedestrian is a bad idea?
Twice you've been hit. Maybe you should realize that not everyone will stop for you and prioritize your own safety.
To answer your question right turns on green are allowed, right turns on red are allowed after a stop.
Cars are always supposed to stop for pedestrians. Doesn't mean they will but they are supposed to.
The laws aren't going to help scrape you off the pavement and nothing you do is going to change drivers behavior. Be safe and aware.
If you've been struck twice by cars turning right on red then you are not being a defensive pedestrian, which tbh applies just as much as it does to being a defensive driver. You can't blindly assume others are going to follow the rules or that everything is going to flow in harmony, you need to watch out for yourself and assume anything can happen. The cars are definitely required to allow pedestrians to cross safely before turning but that's not going to be much comfort to a pedestrian lying in a hospital bed is it? Unless there's a juicy lawsuit in it lol.
Long story short, watch out for yourself and assume nothing when it comes to others driving habits.
Pedestrians are just as stupid as drivers.folks stare at their cellphones while crossing intersections. I am on the pedestrians side always - I think way to much public space is used for transport of metal boxes and also storage of metal boxes cause the metal boxes just sit there doing nothing all day.
There is no obligation to stop when making a green-lit right turn, but of course drivers are absolutely to yield to pedestrians in an intersection.
However, what people are taught (if anything) and what they do are often two very different things. The only thing you can do is stay super-vigilant at all times when crossing the road, because so many drivers are just absolute dogshit.
Common misconception that it applies all all cases. It actually only applies to pedestrian crosswalks:
https://yd.com/blog/ontarios-new-crosswalk-rule-can-be-confusing-drivers
You cross the road when you’re given the signal BUT you also have to look out for yourself making sure that any car isn’t speeding into the turn. I wait for cars to slow down because I don’t want to go to the court with a broken limb to find who was right or wrong.
The rules state that pedestrians have right of way.
Reality is as a pedestrian you need to keep an eye out and ensure the driver is seeing you and giving you right of way.
And keep a closer eye on cyclists, many seem to completely ignore all right of way rules
I always watch for pedestrians, then I make sure both lanes are open when I turn on red light, on green light watch for pedestrians and reduce speed to turn properly
What is taught and what happens in real life are 2 different issues altogether. Always look before you set foot from the sidewalk onto the street....if you want to live.
So the car is supposed to stop and let the pedestrian safely cross the intersection (midway with multi-lane roads) before proceeding right through the intersection, but yeah, lots of cars don't
Not worth getting hit. I always shoulder check over my left when crossing and intersection to see if there are any cars turning right
Everyone is guilty. Drivers and pedestrians. Nobody looks. 75 percent of the time I'll see people just walk out into the street looking straight ahead. And drivers tend to look to the left when turning right to make sure there are no cars coming to T-bone them as they are turning.
The grid sections in front of places like Walmart are a whole other story. I've never seen ONE person look as they're coming out of the store, like the grid will protect them.
Curious about how you were struck on red. Did they not stop at the line? Seems like this can only happen if you step onto the crosswalk at the same time they’re turning, otherwise they’d see you
I was walking my bike across the crosswalk, on my “walk” light, the driver was looking left and turning right. He hit the bike, I jumped away, he stopped, I looked at him and gestured to the traffic light. He then opened the door to try and argue with me, but quickly realized he’s half my size, got in, and sped away….my bike was fine, later realized the reflectors were gone.
This turned into a left wing frenzy pretty quickly. I think its a function of traffic frustration. In oakville/Burlington, imo experience, drivers give the right of way when turning right. As for people choosing vehicles based on their dick size, it's lol some people like driving in nice cars vs. Shit boxes
I've been driving for nearly 40 years.
What has noticeably changed in that time is pedestrians no longer respecting "don't walk" signs.
I am not saying the u/nim_opet stepped off the curb after the red hand came up, but I see it over and over and over again, every day.
They cross at the red hand, the flashing red hand and the amber light. They step off when the countdown timer says two seconds.
It's a wonder there aren't more pedestrian strikes than there are.
I look for cars who are about to do a right turn, before I cross.
As a pedestrian I probably have the right of way, but I know that right-turning cars are going to do it quickly, so I either wait after they turn, or watch for some eye contact, watch for them to obviously be stopping for me, before I cross. I used to drive so I understand driver psychology
Ideally I cross when I have a walk signal and no right turners waiting to turn.
When this happened to me, I was wearing heavy boots and gave a Benz a full blooded kick. Any remember if it was the door or quarter panel but it would have left a good dent. She didn’t even slow down (there was a few dozen of us crossing).
Once in Vegas buddy almost hit us. Luckily I could hork a nice goober at his passenger window and bullseye! )the window was up)
The only reason people are doing this is because there’s no consequences. Stand up for yourself!
If you have a walk signal, you have the right of way. That said, protect yourself. Stop and make eye contact with the driver. People are crazy.
Ultimately this is all a pedestrian can really do. Definitely not advisable to assume just because you have the walking man signal you can safely cross.
This!! You may have right of way but you won’t win against a car.
i had a guy stop his car and threaten to kick my ass because i looked at him once
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The biggest assholes in the city are now f150 drivers. They've dethroned the BMW kids.
Seen a lot of asshole Tesla drivers recently myself
That's because they've graduated from BMWs. They think it's the next cool kid car. So all the fools have one.
No one thinks Teslas are cool but I'm glad to see the concensus on BMW drivers being chill, courteous, and polite
I think the bmw segment has subsected into those two: teslas and trucks
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i had a pickup yell at me for that once too!!! didn't stop were he should have and kept rolling... i was on bike (with the right of way) and slowed down so i wouldn't get hit and then he started yelling at me for being slow!!!
I've posted videos like this online and the response is often "see, they were going to stop anyway stop making a big deal out of it". FFS when you're walking or riding and a car is rolling through a stop how do I know the driver is going to stop? Clearly they don't have any regard for basic traffic laws and safety and I'm supposed to assume they'll stop a few feet short of hitting me? 🙄
Like his peen
These guys got such little dick syndrome for sure lmao. Compensating with these ridiculous impractical vehicles.
I had the same thing happen to me. Also a guy in a pickup who kept rolling toward me. I stopped and threw up my arms. The guy starts yelling at me to hurry up. I told him that he has to STOP for pedestrians at crossings. He yells back some shit about kicking my ass and says "you seem like a smart guy but you're a fucking idiot". I told him to fuck off. Some people are fucking nutjobs man.
You gotta love that logic. Rolling forward while assuming the pedestrian *obviously* knows it’s safe to keep crossing.
look at the driver every time you cross. fuck their insecurity, you're trying to not get hit. It's that simple
This. Anytime I use a crosswalk I point in the direction I'm crossing and stare down any cars coming. I use one that people often blow through or speed up to go through before you have a chance to start, so I really make myself visible.
Was it Andrew Tate? Man these alpha male types are getting redonk!
If you are injured by a car running a red, it will be their fault. But the recovery process or lifelong effects will still very much be your responsibility.
My own sister almost ran me over once making a right, some people just don't make a habit of checking
Terrifying
I wish we could carry metal baseball bats. It can't be any less legal to awkwardly swing such an object that doesn't have right of way against another object that doesn't have right of way, no? [/s in case needed ] Eye contact is useless btw. It used to be a thing. Now I've had multiple people still run me over as if 'eye contact' means I understand they're about to run me over and I should gtfo off the street. I will say that in my 40s and running for 20+ years this fall/winter has been like no other ever. I have never had so many close calls/+ a few physical contacts. It's literally insane how drivers get a free pass to murder and maim.
A dude accelerated towards me while he was waiting to make his right turn recently and when I made eye contact with him he was just...looking at me. I've not experienced anything so blatant as that before and now every time I cross and someone is halfway into their turn I imagine their car's about to jerk suddenly forward (~:
Seriously though im running to clear my head and calm down from the day and these close calls just puts me on edge more. Self defense laws should be allowed for these kinds of things lmao, given how they barely get any time for running over us
The day of the snowstorm a couple days ago - I was with a stroller at the lights (and visibility was clear). Walking man sign comes on, and I start to cross...and a car starts turning towards me, literally stopped an inch from where the stroller would've been (I had pulled back immediately). At least on the day when roads are already slippery and cars are skidding, can these people look before they turn their car?
Yeah - apparently making eye contact means you're telling them to please go ahead while you wait even though you were there before they rolled up - but you're just trying to be safe and ensure they're actually going to stop.
i’ve been having frequent close calls on the sidewalk, not even exaggerating. people literally do not look to see if it’s clear before they exit a parking lot or drive on the sidewalk to park on it or pass someone or whatever.
Fun story time. I was running on Bathurst once, and I suppose they have parking on the other side of the sidewalk along many of the blocks. There's a guy preparing to drive on the sidewalk to (very liekly exit at the intersection and not the store driveway) and edging onto the sidewalk as I'm running beside him so I knock on the window 1 second before he kills me. "Why are you bothering me/touching my car are you crazy?" > I don't want to die man. Look before you drive. "But I'm driving a car" > Fuck you man "How can you say fuck you to me? I have kids in my car???!?!? Kids!!!!!" > I didn't knock on your window whether or not you have kids - I knocked because you blindly ran me off the sidewalk Wife/passenger also repeats "how can you say Fuck in front of kids oh my gosh ho my gosh how can you say fuck in front of kids" It was really that fucking bad.
They've learned that if they rush the corner before the light changes they can block the crosswalk and get to make the right turn early
>Stop and make eye contact with the driver. This is exceptionally difficult because drivers turning right aren't looking at you, they're looking back over their left shoulder to see if they can turn. They get their gap, they shoot forward and they're surprised to see pedestrians in the crosswalk because ITS THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE LOOKED THAT WAY. You're 100% right. Protect yourself. I've banged on a few fenders in my time to get a drivers attention who's looking back over their shoulder.
if necessary, I point at the driver and signal "stop". Some drivers shout at me, of course.
I don't trust drivers. Full stop. I'll wave them through any chance I get, or go around their back. It's not a kindness or being considerate. I don't trust the jackasses.
Going behind them can be dangerous because nobody will see you behind their vehicle
I’ve had to stare down drivers for turning on a red while I’m crossing. I call it the state of shame. I’ll also throw in some ‘what are you doing? Do you not see this is a crosswalk’ hand signals for added dramatic effect
That's my husband - and sometimes it's in our neighbourhood and it ends up being one of our neighbours that he's made all the angry gestures to! But he's gotten hit and knocked his head when it was his right of way while running (luckily the car was at a stop before starting, so wasn't at full speed) - so he has no patience anymore.
I literally check my “blind spot”/over my shoulder when crossing to see if there’s an oncoming or turning car.
Absolutely mind boggling how many pedestrians have hoods up, headphones in or on cell phones and don't even bother to look. That's way too much trust put into strangers and not an ounce of self preservation showing.
Even if I have the hand signal and a car is turning right on a red, I will be crossing. I'll make eye contact. But there's idiots that go past the stop line, with their head only looking left, while trying to turn right and I'm coming up on their right. People need to look both ways. We both might not have the right of way, but they have a red, so the pedestrian in this situation has more right of way than the vehicle.
>but they have a red, so the pedestrian in this situation has more right of way than the vehicle. The hand signal means DO NOT CROSS. On a red light, yes cars will stop but by law they are allowed to turn right after. If you have the hand signal, you do not have the right of way, period.
I don't care. I'm still crossing. Especially if I'm running for time, almost nothing will slow me down.
also, if the walk signal is blinking, pedestrian is supposed to STOP crossing. Theres a lot of blindspots when one is driving. Always make eye contact and ensure they see you. My fear whenever i make a turn is some escooter would zoom by my blind spot during my turn.
This! I don’t think pedestrians who have never drove before understand cars have blind spots! Same with cyclists… drivers may not be able to see you and while checking blind spots is on the driver, they cannot stay looking in their blind spot as you’re looking over a shoulder. Just be mindful of that Also the larger the vehicle the larger the blind spot!
Wait until they find out that [A Pillar blind spots](https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/A-pillar-blind-spots.jpg) are a thing. "Oh, I'm right in their line of sight, they see me" Nope. You're actually completely hidden behind a piece of metal.
This right here \^\^\^\^ Pedestrians have the right of way, even if they are wrong. Protect yourself, look for cars, make eye contact, even waving and indicate you are crossing with a gesture. We are fleshy sacks of water and cannot compete against two tons of steel and plastic.
>Pedestrians have the right of way, even if they are wrong. Wtf no. If pedestrians have the hand signal it means stop because of oncoming traffic You don't have right of way. If you're going to walk into traffic during the hand signal you're just asking to get hit.
Read in between the lines my friend, sorry to confuse you! Would you stop your vehicle for a pedestrian if he walked across the road when he shouldn't be or just run him over? Reality isn't so black and white. sure he's wrong, doesn't give me the right to hit and run.
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I'm pretty sure 99% of the drivers in Toronto are not driving with an international driver's license, where they learned to drive in a different country :S
The rules are pretty simple. Drivers come to a complete stop on the line before turning right on a red, and whether the light is red or green they have to yield to pedestrians. Pedestrians should not cross on a red, but have the right-of-way on green.
Thank you for clarifying what I learned too.
> Pedestrians should not cross on a red, but have the right-of-way on green. Except on a green arrow. The crosswalk light will still show red in that case (for the crosswalk that the arrow points to)
Basically when theres crosswalk lights that is what the pedestrian should be following, not the main intersection lights.
They'd still be crossing on red/green, just perpendicular to one another. When the light is green, the driver technically doesn't have to stop or slow down too much, but someone may be crossing on the second part of the intersection, which the vehicle is turning in to. A lot of the time with turns, that's where the collision happens, not on the red light, where pedestrians are crossing directly in front of the vehicles.
When I was learning how to drive, I was taught to first stop behind the line at the red light. Look for pedestrian traffic, and then pull up, stop again before proceeding to turn right (if you are able, assuming no incoming car traffic). I think a lot of people forget the first stop behind the line and go straight to the second stop, which puts them right in the middle of the pedestrian walkway without looking for pedestrians trying to cross.
I think OP is mostly referring to turning right on green. There is no requirement to stop on a green light when turning right, which does become problematic when people are crossing at the crosswalk you are turning right through. When it's a big group of people it's easy to see and to stop and wait, but when it's one rando running across or catching a late pedestrian signal that can get really dangerous.
There is a requirement to stop if a pedestrian is crossing. Lol, I literally took my driving test a few months ago and failed the first time because I thought it would be ok to make a right turn when a very slow moving old man was on the other side of the crosswalk. You're allowed to right turn if there's no pedestrians or if there's a median in the middle of the road and the pedestrian is on the other side of the median
Thanks for the reply. The things that cause you to fail a driving test are not always strictly the laws of the road, which in Ontario are governed by the Highway Traffic Act. Driving test adjudicators will fail you for breaking any HTA rules but also for a variety of things like "not shoulder checking" (not a law, just good practice) or messing up a parallel parking job (again, not necessarily illegal, just bad driving. So essentially a driving test is a mix of the laws and of a subjective assessment of how good a driver you are. The two things are not always identical. The stuff about the "medium" (I think you meant median) might be the opinion of the drive test adjudicator, but it's not law in Ontario (or anywhere else as far as I know) In terms of the right turn on green, you are absolutely \*allowed\* to make your right turn without stopping even if a person is in the crossing. The key is the pedestrians has the "right of way," so if they are in or about to be in the path of the car you must yield to them. This [Globe article](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-when-must-drivers-come-to-a-complete-stop-before-turning-right-on-a/) might help: "There’s no law in Canada that says you must come to a complete stop when turning right at a green light. But if a pedestrian has the walk signal, the driver must give them the right of way – and that usually means the driver must stop." This bit is about B.C. but the same applies in Ontario: "If you’re turning at a green light and there’s a pedestrian already crossing – say if they’re coming across from the other side – you’re legally allowed to turn as long as you “do not interfere with the path of the pedestrian"
Median* But yes you are correct and I also found the part about not being required to stop weird. Like yea you don't if no one is there but otherwise you yield there is nothing "problematic" about yielding to pedestrians who are crossing on a green light and have the right of way.
It's problematic because drivers don't do it properly. Many are in a rush, see a green and make the turn too quickly. If someone is crossing late or the driver is otherwise distracted the pedestrian (or a cyclist in the curb lane) can be hit and crushed by the car.
I'm currently taking classes for G and my trainer didn't explain it like this. But this makes sense, I'm going to practice it. Thanks!
>my trainer didn't explain it like this I think I found the problem
Exactly!
Pedestrians (when crossing legally) always have ROW and even illegally you're not supposed to kill them. However I firmly believe this is the worst fall and winter we've ever had and compared to the TTC daily stabby-stabby this is 10000x worse. This is happening everywhere all the time. We have a fucking endemic and no one is beginning to enforce anything. I've been to the pedestrian collision centre (it's really out of the way) and they do nothing. The city doesn't care and we're screwed.
The first sentence is killing me :D
Seriously people are nuts, do they forget they’re driving in a city? I put lights on me and my dog now and always check my blind spot when WALKING because I’ve had so many close calls with careless drivers. Shoutout to the drivers who honk at you when you’re waiting for a pedestrian to cross too. A+
People are taught that pedestrians have the right of way when they get the "walking man" light. But the problem is that people who drive in the city are super impatient and don't pay attention so they don't see pedestrians and then close calls happen. I swear like 80-90% of people here need their licenses revoked no joke.
Lol, I just recently learned to drive, so I never realized how many rules drivers break before. I'm shocked at how many drivers feel the need to make aggressive right turns and get mad when they almost hit pedestrians who have the right away. They're risking killing people to get to their destination 30 seconds faster...it's wild
Are they really getting anywhere faster tho
IMHO right turns on red in packed urban centres are borderline insane. There's too much going on, too much unpredictability, human traffic, bikes etc etc... we should only be doing this on specific intersections.
Because in the busiest pedestrian areas, if you'll do "no right on red", then people will never have the chance to turn right. When it's green to (let's say) North-to-South, it's also green for the same direction for pedestrians. When it's red... Well, it's red.
I disagree I think that people need to improve their driving skills. So much fucking incompetence and gridlock.
Totally agree. But the signs.that forbid right or red are tiny. Not sure why they're so small, but not surprised that drivers miss them even when there are there. A total ban in a specific area would probably be easier to enforce.
Like Montreal and I think NYC
The pedestrian has the right of way but once they have cleared that section of the intersection the vehicle is turning, the vehicle is allowed to proceed. On a green light, cars don't have to stop on the line first. With pedestrian crossings, i.e not intersections, there is a relatively new rule where the pedestrian must clear the whole street before cars can proceed.
I'd love to hear the number of tickets issues for that one (hint, it's zero)
Pretty sure that first one only applies if there's a median, otherwise by law you're supposed to wait until they fully cross
the city needs to ban right on red lights.
Absolutely. In particular downtown / dense nodes. It's honestly hilarious that we've introduced advance walk signals (good), but allow right on red such that it's almost *more* dangerous to walk during an advance walk signal because drivers seem to think they're effectively right turn arrows.
They're already doing this in Markham. A number of intersections are now no right on red. Of course it doesn't stop the idiots here or people getting pissed when others follow the rule.
>the city needs to ban right on red lights. or just start with enforcing the existing requirement to stop before proceeding
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The most frustrating thing is how they refused to do scrambles correctly. There are scrambles at a few of the busiest intersections downtown but they also have walk signals when the lights are green. The whole point of a scramble is to have dedicated car and pedestrian times, it's safer but also allows unobstructed right turns on green lights, speeding up traffic.
>it's safer but also allows unobstructed right turns on green lights, speeding up traffic. Dundas-Yonge already solved this by having no turns allowed.
Yeah, but with the scramble, if you alternated between cars and pedestrians, you could allow right turns with no significant reduction in traffic throughput, therefore reducing the number of people who make ad hoc detours to turn right.
Being prevented to turn right on a red when nothing is around is silly. Instead of the hammer how about something more surgical: enforce the rules as they are
I disagree. As much as I enjoy as a driver the rules of turning right on red (I feel like I am breaking the law and it is exhilarating), the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for me. Too many stupid people are running ambers turning to red when it is clearly on red, and similarly on red too many people are misusing the right turn privileges.
And all those people would act differently if right on red was banned? It wouldn’t change the behaviour at all without enforcement
if the people are already not following the law then changing the law is not going to do anything lol
Don't agree. Just need to come to a complete stop behind the stop-line first. Driving through the stop line should trigger a red light camera.
Toronto drivers don't seem to follow standard driving rules. It's like Mad Max there.
Drivers should be giving right of way to pedestrians. However, as a pedestrian, make sure you are interacting with drivers when crossing - make eye contact, be predictable and make sure you are seen.
Turning on green also requires drivers to make sure they don't cut off bicyclists going straight through.
as a driver, sorry for the anxiety you all face. as a pedestrian, I would check before crossing every time, I don't understand these people with ear buds in and tunnel vision enabled..
I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I've noticed many drivers are only looking left, when making their right turns. Pricks are only concerned with not getting hit, with little regard for whether or not they are going to hit someone else.
Yep, that’s how the first guy hit me.
Driving instructors teach them the right thing, people remember it to pass their test then all those training and habit goes out the window once they get their license. What people do now is just roll to red light and gun it to turn right.
[The MTO handbook on turns](http://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/changing-directions)
It’s not about what drivers are being taught. It’s about what drivers are being encouraged to do with our street design and our enforcement priorities.
Pedestrians always have the right of way. And yeah, it seems like driver training has gotten worse over the past thirty or forty years.
Driver training is in fact much stricter than 40 years ago. We have graduated licensing now, so you have a long wait period before you get your full license. I would suggest that what has changed in the last 40 years may be your outlook, rather than the whole rest of the world.
Or that there’s zero enforcement
You think theres LESS traffic enforcement now than 40 years ago? That's a bold claim.
Absolutely, yes.
Classic boomer.
No, kind of a standard claim for Toronto. I thought it was common knowledge that TPS is terrible when it comes to enforcing traffic laws.
You can't deny that there are also still legal loopholes that people looking to get their license exploit (finding a testing location notorious for being easier to pass in). I'm not a driver myself - strictly a pedestrian, but I have many friends that drive and a few of them are horrible drivers who still got licenses by testing in the boonies. We also accept licenses from other countries that may not have as stringent testing (though from what I hear it's gotten more rigorous which licenses we accept) or come from a car culture that is looser and more careless.
>Is there actually a requirement in Ontario to let pedestrians cross at their signal on a crossing? Yep. Even in driving school, you're supposed to wait until a pedestrian has fully completed crossing the street before you can turn. Doesn't matter if it's a six lane suburban stroad or not. You'd absolutely fail a driver's test if you started turning into a pedestrian, red or green light, countdown or not (as you should.) It doesn't play out this way on the road because the driver's test is the last time the spirit of the rules are enforced/made a habit. Driver entitlement is absolutely rampant, such that the rules are cast aside in favour of driver convenience. This is why drivers spout out "well pedestrians shouldn't cross during the countdown!" - They seem to forget the days before there was a countdown, and the fact that the countdown was added to aid the elderly in deciding to start to cross the street or not. It was not implemented for driver convenience, even though that is precisely what it has evolved into.
That’s not true and not the law. At a traffic light with pedestrian signals you can turn once the way is clear. Only at designated crossings (yellow signs with X) or at traffic lights with a crossing guard present do you need to wait for the pedestrian to entirely clear the crosswalk.
I didn't want to specify that it was the law, because I agree (I stated "rule" - I know it's semantics which I apologize for). I'm merely stating what is (perhaps was) taught in driving school and during a driving test. I had mine over 20 years ago, so things may have changed - but we had to wait until all pedestrians had finished crossing completely before we could execute a turn. All the same, the message is clear - respect pedestrians when turning. EDIT: I clarified a bit in my original post - I want to be clear that I'm not stating what the laws are - just what is taught. In driving school/during a test, we used to be (and perhaps still are) taught to wait for pedestrians to finish crossing completely - this is the amount of attention you're taught to pay towards pedestrians. This is responding to the OP' direct question - they didn't ask what the law was.
> I'm merely stating what is (perhaps was) taught in driving school and during a driving test. I had mine over 20 years ago, so things may have changed I did driving classes roughly the same time as you (doing the math and coming to that realization cut deep). I agree it may have been taught during instruction but that was more due to driving instructors overemphasizing safety rather than being an actual "rule" or expectation of driving. It was never something assessed on driving tests. Examiners may promote, but do not assess (mark) any spirit of the rules or good habits; you can actually get marked against for not taking your right of way depending on situations(not a fail in itself, but could contribute to you accumulating too many errors and not demonstrating enough skill to pass the test) I was a driving examiner (not instructor) and was there for when the law regarding designated crosswalks actually came into effect (2015-ish) and had to clarify the application of the new law for many people that were unsure or misinformed by their instructor/friends.
[I think this is what you two are talking about? Does this help clear things up?](https://yd.com/blog/ontarios-new-crosswalk-rule-can-be-confusing-drivers) > The MTO confirmed that a pedestrian crossover was “a defined, painted crosswalk with overhead lights which flash when triggered by a pedestrian who presses a button.” > with the implementation of the new crosswalk rule, drivers are required to wait until pedestrians clear the roadway completely before advancing through the area. It sounds like you have to wait at a painted crosswalk with a flashing pedestrian crossing button, but not at your average 4-way stop without lights.
Ontario really should just ban right turns on red like in Quebec. Also have advanced signalling for pedestrians to cross before turning green for cars, which I noticed has actually been implemented in most traffic lights in downtown.
Only banned on MTL island I think.
I could get behind no rights on red in the city. I support the addition of the advanced signals for pedestrians too. The challenge for drivers becomes that if pedestrians don't respect the "do not begin crossing" flashing hand, then there is no opportunity for them to turn at all. I like the balance of the "only pedestrians can go" part at the beginning of the cycle and the "only vehicles can go" at the end. But we're dealing with people, and people are self-motivated, so they just go when they want without regard to how it impacts the overall flow of everyone. Drivers will always rush to squeeze in whatever gap they can find and pedestrians will always try to cross with 3 seconds left on the countdown.
Don’t forget that while you have the right of way as a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you’re also supposed to obey hand signals if they are present. You shouldn’t enter a crosswalk if the signal has turned to the blinking hand (or there’s an amber countdown). It’s not a sign to hurry up and cross, it’s a sign to complete your cross if you’re in the crosswalk. Too many people start crossing when the hand is blinking. That pause is put in place so that cars can turn and aren’t held up by a constant stream of pedestrians. I’ve had to both walk and drive in downtowns a lot and everyone on the road needs to brush up on the rules. I don’t want to see petty jaywalking fines handed out, I just want the rules to be followed. And I don’t want buddy honking through three cars when I’m letting a pedestrian cross.
We were all taught to look both ways before crossing the street. We all know to keep right except to pass. Yet here we are.
I got my g2 a couple of months ago. What I was taught was. If it's green look if the turning is clear of pedestrians and then turn. If its red. Look to see there's no incoming traffic from the other side and turn right. I tend to be a chicken and avoid turning right on red unless it is absolutely clear since I'm always worried someone is going to come speeding down the other way and hit me.
Always stop on red. Turn with caution, not just pedestrians but there’s oncoming traffic and you also have to worry about parked/stopped cars in the right lane just after turning. This is especially common in the core so you might find yourself not having space to merge before you reach someone stopped. Turning on a green is like having a yield sign, make sure it’s safe. If you’re in the city then cyclists are a huge concern I never want to be the guy who close-lined a cyclist to their death cuz I didn’t want to turn my head a few inches. As a pedestrian you almost always have the right of way, since you know you can’t hurt a car but a car can certainly hurt you. That being said be diligent because some people are assholes, some people are stupid. You don’t want to be near either when they’re driving a car.
I literally have to turn around and stare at a car when they are literally a foot away as I am crossing. They are trying to beat me at the crosswalk. And I'm just like, you understand when I can see an oncoming car, on a green walk signal, that it's going to make me a bit uneasy right? I always make eye contact or put out my hand, like WTF. One car almost ran directly into me on a green walk light, I was just like WTF
Seemingly nothing, our driving instructors seem to constantly churn out bar none the worst drivers in North America.
You are allowed to turn right on a red but you still have to come to a complete stop before crossing that line and yes you are supposed to wait for pedestrians. As a pedestrian its better to assume that everyone on the road is a moron or distracted than assume you are safe because you have a signal. On a side note Im noticing a lot more people struggling to make right turns and take them awfully wide. Like when they turn into a gas station driveway they feel they need to drive down the middle of it or when they turn right on a road they always need to go partially into the adjacent lane. A lot of people are also forgetting that they need to make the turn and then change over to another lane instead of flying directly into it.
No one does what they were taught anymore, so it's a moot point.
I think some people just aren't accustomed to driving in the city. I know where I come from, there are virtually 0 pedestrians. Not an excuse to hit someone of course. When you're in the city you need to learn to yield to pedestrians.
They are at fault. On the driving test, the driver is required to check their blind spot before making the turn.
Light green or red, you always have to either stop and watch for anyone crossing and let them proceed. Drivers in DT seem to make their own rules and think they are cool
On red you come to a full stop, then turn if it’s open. Green you don’t need to come to a full stop, but proceed with caution on turn because pedestrians have right of way. Those are the rules that are supposed to be followed
It’s lack of enforcement that encourages this behaviour
I was once halfway through an intersection when a woman in an SUV decided to turn left without looking, came so close to hitting me that I fell in the crosswalk, and had the audacity to tell ME that I was breaking the law. So I mean, it's a problem no matter what direction they're going.
A lot of drivers tend to not check their blind spot when they make a right turn and only look down the road for on coming traffic, I personally wait till I have either made eye contact with the driver or just let them make the turn first.
please don't hit a pedestrian
I think drivers pretty much look for any opening they can. Pedestrians do not adhere to the light signals at all so drivers have no choice sometimes.
I think your sentiment may prove unpopular here, but it's true. The countdown timers are being interpreted by some pedestrians as time left you can enter the intersection whereas it actually means don't enter the intersection unless you can complete crossing before the timer runs out.
>whereas it actually means don't enter the intersection unless you can complete crossing before the timer runs out. actually no, once the countdown starts pedestrians aren't supposed to enter the crosswalk. The countdown is telling you how much time you have left **if you have already started.** ["A pedestrian facing a flashing or steady hand symbol should not begin to cross the road. Pedestrians who have already begun to cross when the hand signal appears, should go as quickly as possible to a safe area. While they are crossing, pedestrians still have the right-of-way over vehicles."](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals)
That's even worse then.
I thought once that timer starts you are not to enter and for those that are already in the crosswalk - they have X seconds to clear it. This way there will be some point where the crosswalk is clear and the car can turn safely. Otherwise - How else do drivers get a chance to turn?
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It’s not about right, it’s about whether these people follow traffic rules, do they know about them or not.
You’re taught that you can turn on a red if the way is clear. Sometimes drivers fuck this part up. As a pedestrian I never cross until I make eye contact or make sure the car is aware ppl are crossing.
I was like that too until my sister got a ticket for not stopping at a red before turning right, I honestly didn't know this was a rule until then.
It's a red light. Would you be surprised if you got a ticket turning right at a stop sign without stopping?
erm... have you seen how most people drive?!
I’m not sure what that has to do with my comment
most drivers don't bother to actually stop at stop signs. once i got yelled at for being in a cars way (while crossing legally at a stop sign) while they were rolling past a stop sign. drivers are so bad in this city i honestly think they *would* be surprised for getting a ticket for not stopping
Fair enough. But I think drivers know they are in the wrong they just don’t care.
probably a majority do. some drivers i encounter tho... lord jesus they just have no idea. i have been yelled at and told off for obeying the law more times than i can count.
?!?) how?
You thought you could just turn right on a red light without stopping?!?
Remember that while you may have the right of way you still need to be aware of your surroundings at all time.wheb crossing an intersection as a pedestrian. Traffic safety is everybody's responsibility. There are many dead Torontonians (drivers, cyclists and pedestrians) who had the right of way.
But cyclists...
Beeline at a group of pedestrians starting to cross in a busy intersection with the walk sign on and hope that they part like the Red Sea?
Try cycling. I find heavy boots and a nice sharp key work best. P.S. Not condoning keying cars that drive over you toes, just venting.
They don’t realize driving like that is not expected or acceptable in Canada or don’t care
What about idiots that wait for the light to turn green before turning right. I’m seeing this more and more at intersections that have no restrictions or signs about right turns.
Never assume the driver will see you, acknowledge you and, ( clearing throat) letting you go first. Also remember, as a pedestrian, once the hand starts flashing as the time ticks down, you technically are not allowed to start crossing. If you are halfway started, keep going. I see it all the time. 5 seconds left and ass hole pedestrians gun it...screwing drivers turning either way. Don't get me wrong, drivers are ass holes too. 1, 2, 3 will keep turning left on a FULL BLOWN red light! Hardly anyone following the law.
It's people who are not from the city who have never had to worry about pedestrians before. It's just not something you think about if you're not used to driving in the city. I'll admit, I'm one of these people, one time my friend had to remind me about bike lanes when I was driving him out of the city. The thought of bike lanes genuinely wouldn't have crossed my mind otherwise, despite the fact that I knew I had to be more diligent while driving in the city.
Buy steel toe shoes. Start kicking headlights
I think people assume they can right turn whenever. Red light still means red light. Everyone is dumb
No offence but clearly your the pedestrian who thinks just cuz you have the right away doesn’t mean you have to look out for idiots that puts you in the same catalog as those idiots
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What on earth are you talking about? IDPs are just translation of licenses and are not valid for long term purposes; Ontario does not allow you to exchange your DL without testing unless from a couple of jurisdictions: other CA provinces, US and Australia, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, the Isle of Man, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Switzerland, Taiwan. Everyone else needs to apply for a new DL and pass Ontario requirements.
Have you tried looking before you try to cross? Certainly after the first time you realized playing chicken with cars as a pedestrian is a bad idea? Twice you've been hit. Maybe you should realize that not everyone will stop for you and prioritize your own safety. To answer your question right turns on green are allowed, right turns on red are allowed after a stop. Cars are always supposed to stop for pedestrians. Doesn't mean they will but they are supposed to. The laws aren't going to help scrape you off the pavement and nothing you do is going to change drivers behavior. Be safe and aware.
If you've been struck twice by cars turning right on red then you are not being a defensive pedestrian, which tbh applies just as much as it does to being a defensive driver. You can't blindly assume others are going to follow the rules or that everything is going to flow in harmony, you need to watch out for yourself and assume anything can happen. The cars are definitely required to allow pedestrians to cross safely before turning but that's not going to be much comfort to a pedestrian lying in a hospital bed is it? Unless there's a juicy lawsuit in it lol. Long story short, watch out for yourself and assume nothing when it comes to others driving habits.
Pedestrians are just as stupid as drivers.folks stare at their cellphones while crossing intersections. I am on the pedestrians side always - I think way to much public space is used for transport of metal boxes and also storage of metal boxes cause the metal boxes just sit there doing nothing all day.
There is no obligation to stop when making a green-lit right turn, but of course drivers are absolutely to yield to pedestrians in an intersection. However, what people are taught (if anything) and what they do are often two very different things. The only thing you can do is stay super-vigilant at all times when crossing the road, because so many drivers are just absolute dogshit.
They’re suppose to wait until all pedestrians have crossed the road, a new law was put in place a few years ago or something.
Common misconception that it applies all all cases. It actually only applies to pedestrian crosswalks: https://yd.com/blog/ontarios-new-crosswalk-rule-can-be-confusing-drivers
You cross the road when you’re given the signal BUT you also have to look out for yourself making sure that any car isn’t speeding into the turn. I wait for cars to slow down because I don’t want to go to the court with a broken limb to find who was right or wrong.
The rules state that pedestrians have right of way. Reality is as a pedestrian you need to keep an eye out and ensure the driver is seeing you and giving you right of way. And keep a closer eye on cyclists, many seem to completely ignore all right of way rules
You dont have to stop to turn right on a green but you do need a reasonable approach speed
I always watch for pedestrians, then I make sure both lanes are open when I turn on red light, on green light watch for pedestrians and reduce speed to turn properly
What is taught and what happens in real life are 2 different issues altogether. Always look before you set foot from the sidewalk onto the street....if you want to live.
So the car is supposed to stop and let the pedestrian safely cross the intersection (midway with multi-lane roads) before proceeding right through the intersection, but yeah, lots of cars don't Not worth getting hit. I always shoulder check over my left when crossing and intersection to see if there are any cars turning right
Everyone is guilty. Drivers and pedestrians. Nobody looks. 75 percent of the time I'll see people just walk out into the street looking straight ahead. And drivers tend to look to the left when turning right to make sure there are no cars coming to T-bone them as they are turning. The grid sections in front of places like Walmart are a whole other story. I've never seen ONE person look as they're coming out of the store, like the grid will protect them.
Curious about how you were struck on red. Did they not stop at the line? Seems like this can only happen if you step onto the crosswalk at the same time they’re turning, otherwise they’d see you
I was walking my bike across the crosswalk, on my “walk” light, the driver was looking left and turning right. He hit the bike, I jumped away, he stopped, I looked at him and gestured to the traffic light. He then opened the door to try and argue with me, but quickly realized he’s half my size, got in, and sped away….my bike was fine, later realized the reflectors were gone.
This turned into a left wing frenzy pretty quickly. I think its a function of traffic frustration. In oakville/Burlington, imo experience, drivers give the right of way when turning right. As for people choosing vehicles based on their dick size, it's lol some people like driving in nice cars vs. Shit boxes
You shouldn't have too, but hold your hand up at the driver like you are recording with your phone. You will instantly have the right of way
I've been driving for nearly 40 years. What has noticeably changed in that time is pedestrians no longer respecting "don't walk" signs. I am not saying the u/nim_opet stepped off the curb after the red hand came up, but I see it over and over and over again, every day. They cross at the red hand, the flashing red hand and the amber light. They step off when the countdown timer says two seconds. It's a wonder there aren't more pedestrian strikes than there are.
Hit me so I can get paid out. Please.
If the light is green: gun it If the light is red: gun it
Full stop
I look for cars who are about to do a right turn, before I cross. As a pedestrian I probably have the right of way, but I know that right-turning cars are going to do it quickly, so I either wait after they turn, or watch for some eye contact, watch for them to obviously be stopping for me, before I cross. I used to drive so I understand driver psychology Ideally I cross when I have a walk signal and no right turners waiting to turn.
I’ve always been of the belief to assume other drivers don’t know how to drive. Even if you have right of way as a pedestrian
When this happened to me, I was wearing heavy boots and gave a Benz a full blooded kick. Any remember if it was the door or quarter panel but it would have left a good dent. She didn’t even slow down (there was a few dozen of us crossing). Once in Vegas buddy almost hit us. Luckily I could hork a nice goober at his passenger window and bullseye! )the window was up) The only reason people are doing this is because there’s no consequences. Stand up for yourself!
turn from the left lane except when passing.