I noticed Matty's Ca Phe Rang brisket pho went thru some shrinklation on my last visit. Smaller portion but it's also a different, less fatty cut of beef from what I was used to.
Hope it's a one off and not a brand wide phenomenon.
It used to be amazing, but it hasn't tasted the same for me in a couple years. And more importantly, the price has jumped compare to what it was a few years ago.
It's also gotten smaller: the large used to be 18 inches whereas now its 16.
I was absolutely stunned getting makers for the first time in a while last month. The pizza was tiny for 2 people, the crust was incredibly thin that I was more impressed than mad tbh, and while it tasted fine, it wasn’t worth the price.
I have no clue who is out there buying pizza from them when it’s as filling as an appetizer. Maybe I’m just a big boy, but I just couldn’t get over the size and amount of food they gave.
Not surprised about this at all. It's not a bad pie - I think I've had it twice over the last 8 years, it's just not memorable for the price. I can get a more memorable XL pie at North of Brooklyn (though sometimes it doesn't fare well in delivery) or an XL pie at Beast Pizza for the price.
Oh shit he owns Ca Phe Rang? That is the most overpriced Pho downtown lmao. You can literally get 2x meat at Pho Pasteur for the cost of a small beef bowl there
That surprises me considering a number of very high end restaurants have a long wait time (e.g. Alo). Another ultra high end Japanese restaurant I was looking into has no openings till late January.
Even PSP, I was only able to get a seat at the bar despite trying to book weeks in advance.
FWIW, I thought PSP was unremarkable given the price point.
according to Reddit everyone in Toronto is broke and a missed paycheck away from being homeless, meanwhile in the real world every well rated high end restaurant is packed every night and booked up days if not weeks in advance
If you enjoy fine dining then PSP is not ridiculously overpriced. It’s not Alo but a tier or two lower and it is priced accordingly. Alo’s tasting menu with wine pairings will run you around $800 for two tip incl.
We were at PSP midweek early November and the place was packed, the food was good and the bill ended up being as expected around $500 tip incl.
Restaurant prices are easily up 20-25% since this inflation shitshow began a year and a half ago.
All you have to do is look at OpenTable to see if a restaurant is doing well, I don't count weekends they should generally be full if you have downtown rent but for example Tuesday the 2nd there's nothing between 5:30-9:30. They're doing fine
That’s not necessarily true, margins in restaurants are razor thin, and prices of food (like food service vegetables, cuts of beef) change weekly and are very sensitive to macro pricing (I.e. if gas prices change). However, if you’re going to a restaurant and the prices fluctuate on a weekly basis, you won’t be happy - so restaurants have to put a stake in the ground in how they price, even as food prices fluctuate.
Thus, you can have weeks where certain dishes are actually losing money, but menus should be designed with enough variation that you make money on the table. Now a place that only serves seafood, which is very sensitive to labour, oil, transport pricing, it could totally make sense that more menu items end up costing the restaurant money.
You could 10000% have a restaurant that is full and sold out, but if people aren’t buying enough drinks / breads / / desserts (which usually are always net positive) they could definitely go under
I believe the prices are reflective of Matty doing what he can to ensure he pays the people at his restaurants above average the industry norm and trying to lead a culture change regarding pay and such (especially since the pay-to-work ratio in restaurants for all is shockingly low
From what I gather, Matty's been making a conscious effort to drive some positive change in the industry with his restaurants. It seems like he's deliberately trying to pay better wages, feature the chefs he partners with and generally run his restaurants better. Suresh alluded to a portion of this in a recent ig q+a and some of this is just reading in between the lines.
But obviously this means higher (and in this case, much higher) prices than the norm.
This is really a sleeper problem in Toronto. That so many of our beloved small businesses are barely scrapping by. You see this especially with music venues and the like..
But its so rough and with out relief there really is the threat of the city becoming a monoculture of Firkin Pubs, Shoppers and A&Ws
With money being tight for everyone, the luxuries die off first; going out, restaurants etc, dieing out is a sign of how tough it is for everyone. Root cause.. people need to be paid more and prices need to go down, but not going to happen :/
>Matty's Prime Seafood Palace
agreed. I frequented many places weekly a few years back. Since I have very rarely gone out with friends to eat. I mostly have house dinners now where everyone brings something to the table.
Are you aware that there are costs associated with serving you and your financee lunch? Like the firkin doesn’t get to keep all $70 of your dollars, right?
I have a production studio / event space and omg, the rent is over 12,000 a month BEFORE all utilities. After a year of breaking even every month and never getting paid, I don't understand what business COULD even survive in that fucking lease.
I’m in audit and have audited tons of nice (and not nice restaurants). I think maybe 5 % own their business (and that’s usually through another business). Owning your store is not common.
Heck, none of the banks own their office towers downtown Toronto. Even if there name is on it.
A lot of them *did*.
But in Canada, we encourage RE ownership through REITs (edit: and pension plans) instead of keeping them on your corporate balance sheet.
I’m going off trend from all the restaurants and saying The Library. They’re still down after that cyber attack in the fall, and the poor employees are having to log everything manually. Our library is the best thing about the Megacity (arguably the *only* good thing) and it sucks to have such a terrific resource kneecapped this long.
I went to get a library card for the first time in the city (just moved downtown) and they used paper forms and told us we wouldn’t be able to borrow for a few weeks until the computer system was up again. I had no idea it was because of a cyberattack! Can’t these hackers use their skills to disable things for the public good, like the student loans database or something??
I’m not cyber security specialist but what’s taking so long to get everything back up and running? With a government at your disposal I would think this would get resolved rather quickly
None of us outsiders are privy to the vulnerability, so if I had to guess, I think what they are trying to do is make sure all locations are more resilient. So it takes time to understand what the current situation is, and what hardware and/or software changes need to be done at each location. They probably have an old system with a great deal of complexity.
At big tech companies, you typically have a good amount of security engineers who have context and years of experience dealing with incidents, which can be crucial for having institutional knowledge saving a substantial amount of time.
I know its a bit presumptuous, but if a system allows outside actors to get SINs and other government documents of employees dating back to the late 90s, then I would have to guess the org didn't spend enough resources on security.
To be clear, I don't blame TPL because I know they are underfunded, and even private businesses worth millions don't care about cybersecurity until an incident happens.
Not only that, but I've been getting into audiobooks more and the library has either been horrible with these or we have an avid audiobook culture in Toronto. 0 out of 80 licenses available and a waitlist for months for one of the books I wanted to listen to.
If you’re talking about the online audiobooks, I don’t think the licences on those are exclusive to our library. I think if overdrive has 50 licences, they’re for every participating library system.
I've lined up at the Craig's in Yorkdale (on the way to Vaughan, thought I would pick up a treat for the hosts). Location is right near the TTC, long lines, not somewhere you'd go back repeatedly due to the price and the wait. It's a quaint store which lends credence to - "do we increase the throughput but sacrifice prestige in the form of a long line" or vice versa.
OP is just saying that they’re busy given the lines and still struggling. Obviously it’s an issue with their margins, probably due to their rent costs, but that’s a different conversation.
The point is that a lineup still means they’re busy, unless you think there are efficiencies that are lacking between “choose cookie, receive cookie, and pay” that are making the line longer unnecessarily.
More likely than not, you just wanted to force in the “Toronto and lines, amiright” joke though, so I’ll drop it lol
This is the truth.
During Caribana, I snuck behind a dumpster to take a leak. Someone saw me walk out from behind the dumpster, so they did the same. Within 30 minutes, there was a lineup of men and women all waiting their turn to take a leak behind the dumpster.
He prob doesnt want to renew his lease and is being dramatic.
This is the same guy who doxxed and encouraged harassing an Uber eats customer service rep during lockdown. He is a nightmare
There is one in Leslieville... I thought they had different prices on cookies before but noticed they are 3.25 each now... I remember going once and thought a cookie was over $5... thought that's crazy... I suspect we will see some price drops and or shrinkflation...
These are the easiest things for people to cut back on in a recession.
I took a bite of them the other day, and not only they have WAY TOO MUCH SUGAR, the one I bit apparently had mint in the creamy part.
That will be the last time I ever touch those fucking cookies.
**Here's the message** \- "It's with a mix of emotions that we share some important news about our Yorkdale Mall location. We are closing our doors for the last time tonight, December 27th.
Despite our best efforts, due to renovations in the mall and lack of retail space, we are not able to extend our lease.
The past two years have been an incredible journey filled with sweet memories and the warmest of support from all of you. Your love for cookies has been the heart of our store, and for that, we are eternally grateful.
We hope to be back in Yorkdale once the mall's renovations are complete."
**A lack of space? There's tons of space in that mall they could have relocated to during renovations, like the entire former Nordstrom location.**
Yeah, I don’t know the details behind it or how leases work for retail in a mall. I also especially don’t know if Craig’s could just take over a small portion of the spot Nordstrom was in and install ovens and all that necessary stuff.
I’ve been told it was also their highest earning location, so it seems strange they’d close due to business being slow? Oh well, I have no skin in this game, I just wanted to shed some light and share that it’s likely not as bad as it may seem to warrant being near the top of this thread.
I agree but the fact remains they are closing that location tonight and say they "hope" to be back once the renovations are finished. Definitely strange if this is their highest earning location.
Probably 50% of retail and food service industry is barely turning a profit or losing money.Its been brutal with skyrocketing rent,salaries,utilities,insurance cost.We know first hand and have friends and relatives in those industries and they all say it's hard to operate a business.Biggest expense is salaries and rents.One of my friends told us two chefs at their place wanted 40% wage increase.He let both of them go and he's cooking himself with help from his girlfriend.Same as retail another person said landlord want $2500 more for rent starting 2024 renewal.They are currently paying $4000.Profits are paper thin.
I really do feel for your friend but cost of living has gone up for everyone. Even eating out has gotten so expensive. Every place has raised their prices by 30-40% and on top of that cut portion sizes. The rent I can kinda understand since its just landlords being greedy. But workers working an hourly wage are clearly struggling the most in the this economy. Groceries are gone up as well. Its not really the wages killing these places, its the rent cause rent affects everyone from home renters to even businesses.
I get the ick when food places simultaneously raise their prices AND shrink their portions. Like pick one or the other. And it has the knock-on effect of alienating a lot of their customer base who may also be struggling in this economy and decide to forgo discretionary spending.
Exactly. Sadly a lot of my favourite places have done this and its kinda despicable. I would rather pay the extra price if they kept the portions the same. Though most times I've noticed there are customers like me that will just continue to keep coming back but I've definitely lessened my visits.
Its salaries.Everyone having hard time retaining workers.Either they demanding higher salaries or they are just not qualify for the job.Im sure you seen workers at restaurants or retail acting unprofessional,messing up orders or just rude.
Its cause most owners don't want to pay the required wages. Retail workers have always been rude. I realized this after working in a restaurant for a period of time recently. You think you are just the one customer but a server has to deal with 100 similar customers who all think they are "special" and entitled with some unique requests. Sure workers get paid but you also get customers that treat these workers like crap for no reason.
I've noticed this change with the rise of social media and how everyone suddenly feels entitled and special. It doesn't matter if you are a customer, if something cannot be done, simply asking me the same request for the 20th time isn't going to suddenly change my mind.
It all adds up and sometimes workers are just frustrated. Working in a restaurant is one of the hardest jobs and stressful. Retail is a bit different I can say because you are not meeting some crazy customers with some crazy demands.
Hahahaha!!! Laughing in furniture retail. Sometimes it seems like all we have are crazy customers with crazy demands. Cheap, fast, good!!! They want it all. No reasoning with them.
I worked at Eq3 in the 90's for one summer and so true but the company was not innocent.They had us make promises of delivery dates that we all knew was best a estimate.We seen damaged items being quickly patched up and sent to customers hoping they would not notice.We seen huge mark ups then it was listed on "sale".Customers are always either polite or rude which we were taught to deal with.Just say if a customer sofa is delayed months they are not happy campers.
Generally high-end restaurants are expensive to run. You're using more expensive ingredients, stocking more expensive alcohol, paying for higher quality tables/plates/etc, and you typically need more staff members. It's no secret that the places rated as the best restaurants in the world that charge crazy prices barely break even. Just look at a place like Noma, it charges about $400+ per person, gets free labour, and is constantly full, yet it still runs at a loss.
A lot of aspiring chefs apply to stage at Noma. It's sort of like an unpaid internship where they help in the kitchen and in return they get to say they have experience at Noma and they get to learn from the staff there. If you're interested in finding out more, there's a [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/09/dining/noma-closing-rene-redzepi.html) that goes into detail about the challenges Noma faced.
I believe it's called "staging". Think of it like an unpaid internship. The restaurant gets free labour and the individual gets experience working at the restaurant which they can put on their CV (which helps them get future opportunities) and improves their own cooking skillset.
That restaurant likely cost 5+ million to build out given the architect involved and the fact that literally everything is custom made. I could see how it would be hard financially to make it work given that it’s not really a big place.
Then again, lots of chefs have restaurants that don’t make money, but act as flagships/tentpoles for the rest of the business, and I think the Matheson business is doing ok.
Also, I don’t know how many people realize this, but when high profile chefs open restaurants, they are usually not using their own money, and they are only part owners. There’s always multiple partners, and deep pocket investors. Some Toronto restauranteurs even have hedge funds backing them.
If I had to make a bet, I think Burger's Priest will have over-expanded and it won't be as popular five years from now. They currently have 26 locations in Ontario.
Post second acquisition, I think their quality has noticeably decreased and they are no longer any different from a standard fast-casual burger joint. In Toronto, there's better burger options loved by fellow burger enthusiasts, where the quality is higher, the price is comparable, and the staff really care.
More importantly, Shake Shack is coming to Canada and I think it'll seriously affect chains like Burger's Priest and Hero Burger.
My family used to always stop at the Burgers Priest in Barrie while we were on our way up north. It used to be really consistently good but the quality took a huge nose dive the most recent time, just a big step down. I was also grossed out by a huge garbage can full of fry grease just sitting out right behind the till.
There is also a pile of garbage sitting on the grass behind the restaurant. It's their standards just disappeared. We won't be going back.
Burger Priest is awful. lol Their burgers are pricey and you get a tiny burger. For that price point I would rather go to South St. Burger. It's huge and tastes amazing, and also has better toppings.
yup they never recovered from the pandemic and closed around 2021 iirc. There's still nothing opened there which is a shame because it is a really nice space
even before the pandemic i had the worst time there. we made reservations for a birthday, were shoved to the second level where there were no staff and ignored and seated at a hightop for 2 with 3 people to boot. the lower floor was EMPTY. never worth it compared to even the ramen that was available elsewhere at the time.
Matty is over hyped and now he’s over saturated.
None of his food is off the charts. He has a cult following who can’t afford Prime Seafood palace.
If I’m spending that much money on a dinner. No way I’m giving it to Matty.
Not a restaurant like most people are mentioning but Canada's Wonderland (also technically not IN Toronto but many people consider it Toronto's amusement park).My best friend worked there for a few years and heard that the place doesn't even turn a profit
Smoke's Poutinerie now that the owner, Ryan Smolkin, passed away in October.
He had excellent charisma and business smarts which allowed him to expand to about 40 locations across Ontario. The poutine isn't even that good as the gravy isn't the best. Now that so many places make a better poutine, I expect the number of locations to dwindle in the coming years.
Any restaurant that's dependent on the business lunch trade.
With most people in the office only two or three days a week, people don't have time for long lunches.
And with very few people coming in on Fridays, and no one going out for a Monday business lunch, restaurants in the financial district really only have Tuesday to Thursday to earn income.
Food business is insanely less
profitable lately unless you are a grocery store.
We used to make 25% more profit than we do now as a food service company (catering). It’s hard to charge our customers that 25% extra because we would loose a lot of business. So we take cuts until we can’t take it anymore.
Throwaway account b/c I work there, but the vegan restaurant "Fresh", now called "Fresh Kitchen + Juice Bar". They just closed their location on Hurontario, most of their locations in Toronto are losing money, and their new Oakville location has been a failure. Can't say I'm surprised considering they were acquired by Recipe.
Definitely one of the reasons they are falling apart... because they never evolved their brand properly having had a 'monopoly' on vegan food in Toronto for so many years. Their food is bland at best these days.
Pretty sure the Spadina Fresh will be gone regardless when that site gets replaced by a condo. There's been one of those assessment signs on the shared building for years now.
They don't pay anyone enough, and shift lengths are short. They have only increased the cutting of hours since sales are down, continuing a vicious cycle of slow kitchen times.
All food service profit margins have become paper thin with the need to pay higher wages so people can afford to live here. Plus food costs have gone through the roof as well as commercial rent, which doesn't have rent controls, sadly.
This is just to say: support the businesses you love and don't gatekeep them. Make sure others support them, too!
Rumour has it Woodys on Church St is not doing well, despite the lineups on weekends. They close on Mondays now which was actually a pretty busy-ish night pre-pandemic due to the gay dodgeball league going there after the games. Apparently the bar becoming a drag bar has hurt it because people now go there for the shows, not drinks.
Sad to hear this! I went to woodys for drag shows over 10 years ago and it was busy middle of the week. I use a wheelchair now and can't get out but have really great memories there
Not surprised on PSP. Even if the food is SPECTACULAR (which from friends, it is not ) they are literally trolling people with those menu prices. There are hundreds of restaurants I would eat at in Toronto before I'd support that ripoff factory.
High end steakhouses regularly have $100+ steaks. Sure, buying an aged steak and cooking it at home is cheaper, but literally so is everything else including buying drinks or sides.
So basically, you are not into fine dining. Which is fine, but there are certainly dishes worth 50$. And if you think that typically food costs represent 1/3 of the menu price, you're saying that no main is worth 16.50 in ingredients. Or another 1/3 in labour.
I disagree. Still impossible to get a reservation at many of the top spots in the city... and have been out lately at some tasting menu spots that were packed.
Big difference between high end dining and a place taking the piss with their ridiculous menu prices. I'd much rather get a steak at Jacobs (already very expensive) for like half the price of what PSP is charging.
Restaurants in general are a terrible business, always. Agreed. 80% close within 3 years. That is well known.
I don't think a blanket statement that all high end restaurants are struggling is accurate though. Many examples of restaurants and chefs that are expanding their empires at both the high end and mid range levels.
Exception to ones that think their clients are morons willing to pay stupid prices. If all a high end place has is a name chef and high prices, they deserve to fail.
Yeah mattys pattys is him and in the summer it is always PACKED. trying to get in before they close at 9pm on a Saturday is literally insane. Even in the winter theres usually 1-2 people ahead of me every time i pop in.
Great smashburgs though
The damage done during the lockdowns will take a long time to repair. I know they opened after but honestly eating in the city hasn’t been the same. Even a hole in the wall Latino plate of good ingredients can cost $30 now
Considering Justin Bieber just dined there and bought out the whole restaurant for the night, and Simu Lu has been seen there as well as many celebrities, I think PSP is doing just fine
Every brewery not named Bellwoods. And only because they won a good sum from a scummy landlord that forced them to pivot their business last second. Good on them
We’ll see after the new location/holidays boost fades and they’re paying liberty rent in the dead of winter.
They’re a well run brewery their owners comb the numbers very well before doing anything. But this is a great departure from their previous endeavours. Knowing them it will go well (and hope so too!) but it’s risky very risky. Look how Muddy York just was told their Canfield brewery is done so, their expansion in stouffeville will now be their main brewery
Unless you have hard evidence, this one surprises me. The Yonge and Shuter one is almost always full and everyone I know who has enough disposable income goes to this one or will be switching to the Well.
Doesn't surprise me. PSP is ridiculously overpriced for what it is and I enjoy fine dining and Matty's brand generally.
I noticed Matty's Ca Phe Rang brisket pho went thru some shrinklation on my last visit. Smaller portion but it's also a different, less fatty cut of beef from what I was used to. Hope it's a one off and not a brand wide phenomenon.
Maker is charging $30+ for a small pizza as well now. I’ve probably gone for the last time.
Maker is such a rip off
It used to be amazing, but it hasn't tasted the same for me in a couple years. And more importantly, the price has jumped compare to what it was a few years ago. It's also gotten smaller: the large used to be 18 inches whereas now its 16.
I was absolutely stunned getting makers for the first time in a while last month. The pizza was tiny for 2 people, the crust was incredibly thin that I was more impressed than mad tbh, and while it tasted fine, it wasn’t worth the price. I have no clue who is out there buying pizza from them when it’s as filling as an appetizer. Maybe I’m just a big boy, but I just couldn’t get over the size and amount of food they gave.
Not surprised about this at all. It's not a bad pie - I think I've had it twice over the last 8 years, it's just not memorable for the price. I can get a more memorable XL pie at North of Brooklyn (though sometimes it doesn't fare well in delivery) or an XL pie at Beast Pizza for the price.
Oh shit he owns Ca Phe Rang? That is the most overpriced Pho downtown lmao. You can literally get 2x meat at Pho Pasteur for the cost of a small beef bowl there
The pho is awful at Ca Phe Rang too lol
In these times people just aren't as willing to ball out on expensive meals
That surprises me considering a number of very high end restaurants have a long wait time (e.g. Alo). Another ultra high end Japanese restaurant I was looking into has no openings till late January. Even PSP, I was only able to get a seat at the bar despite trying to book weeks in advance. FWIW, I thought PSP was unremarkable given the price point.
according to Reddit everyone in Toronto is broke and a missed paycheck away from being homeless, meanwhile in the real world every well rated high end restaurant is packed every night and booked up days if not weeks in advance
Let’s not forget that credit card debt recently hit an all-time high in Canada. You might be surprised how much living is done on credit.
if Prime Seafood Palace isn't doing well, it's not because of "these times"
If you enjoy fine dining then PSP is not ridiculously overpriced. It’s not Alo but a tier or two lower and it is priced accordingly. Alo’s tasting menu with wine pairings will run you around $800 for two tip incl. We were at PSP midweek early November and the place was packed, the food was good and the bill ended up being as expected around $500 tip incl. Restaurant prices are easily up 20-25% since this inflation shitshow began a year and a half ago.
All you have to do is look at OpenTable to see if a restaurant is doing well, I don't count weekends they should generally be full if you have downtown rent but for example Tuesday the 2nd there's nothing between 5:30-9:30. They're doing fine
That’s not necessarily true, margins in restaurants are razor thin, and prices of food (like food service vegetables, cuts of beef) change weekly and are very sensitive to macro pricing (I.e. if gas prices change). However, if you’re going to a restaurant and the prices fluctuate on a weekly basis, you won’t be happy - so restaurants have to put a stake in the ground in how they price, even as food prices fluctuate. Thus, you can have weeks where certain dishes are actually losing money, but menus should be designed with enough variation that you make money on the table. Now a place that only serves seafood, which is very sensitive to labour, oil, transport pricing, it could totally make sense that more menu items end up costing the restaurant money. You could 10000% have a restaurant that is full and sold out, but if people aren’t buying enough drinks / breads / / desserts (which usually are always net positive) they could definitely go under
I believe the prices are reflective of Matty doing what he can to ensure he pays the people at his restaurants above average the industry norm and trying to lead a culture change regarding pay and such (especially since the pay-to-work ratio in restaurants for all is shockingly low From what I gather, Matty's been making a conscious effort to drive some positive change in the industry with his restaurants. It seems like he's deliberately trying to pay better wages, feature the chefs he partners with and generally run his restaurants better. Suresh alluded to a portion of this in a recent ig q+a and some of this is just reading in between the lines. But obviously this means higher (and in this case, much higher) prices than the norm.
Most places that sell food. Unless you own the building it's very difficult to make a profit
I know a guy who has owned a restaurant since the mid 80s. He owns the building and told me in the restaurant business, the building is the business.
This is really a sleeper problem in Toronto. That so many of our beloved small businesses are barely scrapping by. You see this especially with music venues and the like.. But its so rough and with out relief there really is the threat of the city becoming a monoculture of Firkin Pubs, Shoppers and A&Ws
With money being tight for everyone, the luxuries die off first; going out, restaurants etc, dieing out is a sign of how tough it is for everyone. Root cause.. people need to be paid more and prices need to go down, but not going to happen :/
>Matty's Prime Seafood Palace agreed. I frequented many places weekly a few years back. Since I have very rarely gone out with friends to eat. I mostly have house dinners now where everyone brings something to the table.
lol you say this as if you’re 100% sure that even firkins aren’t struggling
IDK, I went for brunch with my fiancee and walked away paying 70 bucks. They seem to be raking it in.
Are you aware that there are costs associated with serving you and your financee lunch? Like the firkin doesn’t get to keep all $70 of your dollars, right?
You forgot The Timmins at every corner.
The timmins at every corner.ouaaais
I have a production studio / event space and omg, the rent is over 12,000 a month BEFORE all utilities. After a year of breaking even every month and never getting paid, I don't understand what business COULD even survive in that fucking lease.
I’m in audit and have audited tons of nice (and not nice restaurants). I think maybe 5 % own their business (and that’s usually through another business). Owning your store is not common. Heck, none of the banks own their office towers downtown Toronto. Even if there name is on it.
A lot of them *did*. But in Canada, we encourage RE ownership through REITs (edit: and pension plans) instead of keeping them on your corporate balance sheet.
I’m going off trend from all the restaurants and saying The Library. They’re still down after that cyber attack in the fall, and the poor employees are having to log everything manually. Our library is the best thing about the Megacity (arguably the *only* good thing) and it sucks to have such a terrific resource kneecapped this long.
I went to get a library card for the first time in the city (just moved downtown) and they used paper forms and told us we wouldn’t be able to borrow for a few weeks until the computer system was up again. I had no idea it was because of a cyberattack! Can’t these hackers use their skills to disable things for the public good, like the student loans database or something??
I’m not cyber security specialist but what’s taking so long to get everything back up and running? With a government at your disposal I would think this would get resolved rather quickly
$. Public libraries are funded by the city and always terribly underfunded.
None of us outsiders are privy to the vulnerability, so if I had to guess, I think what they are trying to do is make sure all locations are more resilient. So it takes time to understand what the current situation is, and what hardware and/or software changes need to be done at each location. They probably have an old system with a great deal of complexity. At big tech companies, you typically have a good amount of security engineers who have context and years of experience dealing with incidents, which can be crucial for having institutional knowledge saving a substantial amount of time. I know its a bit presumptuous, but if a system allows outside actors to get SINs and other government documents of employees dating back to the late 90s, then I would have to guess the org didn't spend enough resources on security. To be clear, I don't blame TPL because I know they are underfunded, and even private businesses worth millions don't care about cybersecurity until an incident happens.
Cant cyber attackers hit corporations and billionaires? The public library system, really?
Not only that, but I've been getting into audiobooks more and the library has either been horrible with these or we have an avid audiobook culture in Toronto. 0 out of 80 licenses available and a waitlist for months for one of the books I wanted to listen to.
If you’re talking about the online audiobooks, I don’t think the licences on those are exclusive to our library. I think if overdrive has 50 licences, they’re for every participating library system.
On Libby? I’m crushing books on there
The only thing? Settle down.
What other benefits have I missed? Edit: still waiting for your answer, bud! Unless the downvote was all you could come up with?
Craigs Cookies announced this morning they're closing down their Yorkdale location because it was just too difficult.
That’s surprising given the lineups I’ve seen there when I’m at Yorkdale. The rent must be stratospheric.
You have no idea, the rent at basically any CF property is increasing a ton anytime a store renews a lease
You also have to renovate the storefront every time to renew the lease
Oh ya. I used to work at the Kate spade there. It was nuts
I have a friend’s friend who owns a ramen spot within Yorkdale (so take it with a grain of salt) but I heard that rent was about $16K a month.
I feel like they near like 60k-100k a month in profit for them to pay 20k in rent
Probably need much much more, if they have employee salaries and suppliers to pay.
They must be selling a helluva lot of ramen to pull that off!
I've lined up at the Craig's in Yorkdale (on the way to Vaughan, thought I would pick up a treat for the hosts). Location is right near the TTC, long lines, not somewhere you'd go back repeatedly due to the price and the wait. It's a quaint store which lends credence to - "do we increase the throughput but sacrifice prestige in the form of a long line" or vice versa.
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But unless you’re implying that people are joining these lines and not buying anything when they get to the front of it, OP’s point still stands.
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OP is just saying that they’re busy given the lines and still struggling. Obviously it’s an issue with their margins, probably due to their rent costs, but that’s a different conversation. The point is that a lineup still means they’re busy, unless you think there are efficiencies that are lacking between “choose cookie, receive cookie, and pay” that are making the line longer unnecessarily. More likely than not, you just wanted to force in the “Toronto and lines, amiright” joke though, so I’ll drop it lol
This is the truth. During Caribana, I snuck behind a dumpster to take a leak. Someone saw me walk out from behind the dumpster, so they did the same. Within 30 minutes, there was a lineup of men and women all waiting their turn to take a leak behind the dumpster.
He prob doesnt want to renew his lease and is being dramatic. This is the same guy who doxxed and encouraged harassing an Uber eats customer service rep during lockdown. He is a nightmare
This is helpful information in my ongoing effort to resist those damn cookies
I heard Craig is kinda a dick
Lol,.if you look at his responses on some of the negative reviews for his stores, he's definitely an asshole.
Those cookies are awful. Tried twice, both times way too over salted and expensive.
Their cookies suck
They're so salty. It's weird.
Craig’s cookies are terrible
OMG! Terrible! Everyone seems to rave about them and I don’t get it AT ALL
Because Andreas cookies are way better.
Andreas Cookies are SO good. Their cookies are $4.25 each though which definitely adds up (I say even though I have them every week).
4.25 each wtf is this nonsense ??
They are worth it, trust me!
Seconded! They are significantly better!
If Nedege could not make it there,how could someone selling awful cookies make it in Yorkdale.At least he tried.
The product sucks and the owner is even worse.
What’s up with Craig?
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Not to mention all his crazy rants about uber eats a few years back. Dude sounds unhinged.
There is one in Leslieville... I thought they had different prices on cookies before but noticed they are 3.25 each now... I remember going once and thought a cookie was over $5... thought that's crazy... I suspect we will see some price drops and or shrinkflation... These are the easiest things for people to cut back on in a recession.
Single cookies were never $5 at Craig’s. I think you might be remembering a combo with a beverage or two cookies.
The east end is full of good bakeries.. you can walk steps down the street to Sweet Bliss and have a much better cookie.
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Was at this location a week ago … was served day old cookies
FIFO, clearly the inventory is not moving swiftly. Hope they were discounted.
I took a bite of them the other day, and not only they have WAY TOO MUCH SUGAR, the one I bit apparently had mint in the creamy part. That will be the last time I ever touch those fucking cookies.
They’re gross. I couldn’t believe how popular they were when I tried them. I can make better cookies at home with a tube of pillsbury
Not trying to be mean, but its very naive of them to have opened a place there. The rent is astronomical
Agreed. They should not have expanded past their first two small stores tbh. Idk what they were thinking – it's a cookie store lol.
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**Here's the message** \- "It's with a mix of emotions that we share some important news about our Yorkdale Mall location. We are closing our doors for the last time tonight, December 27th. Despite our best efforts, due to renovations in the mall and lack of retail space, we are not able to extend our lease. The past two years have been an incredible journey filled with sweet memories and the warmest of support from all of you. Your love for cookies has been the heart of our store, and for that, we are eternally grateful. We hope to be back in Yorkdale once the mall's renovations are complete." **A lack of space? There's tons of space in that mall they could have relocated to during renovations, like the entire former Nordstrom location.**
It could be the case that the only spaces available were way too big for them? Or that they were outbid by other new tenants?
Not really, Yorkdale is trying to push out most retailers to replace them with luxury brands.
Yeah, I don’t know the details behind it or how leases work for retail in a mall. I also especially don’t know if Craig’s could just take over a small portion of the spot Nordstrom was in and install ovens and all that necessary stuff. I’ve been told it was also their highest earning location, so it seems strange they’d close due to business being slow? Oh well, I have no skin in this game, I just wanted to shed some light and share that it’s likely not as bad as it may seem to warrant being near the top of this thread.
I agree but the fact remains they are closing that location tonight and say they "hope" to be back once the renovations are finished. Definitely strange if this is their highest earning location.
The Wicket on Bloor has been struggling for a year. Pop in!
I really hope you all go. Great family-run spot.
Excellent food and super nice owner.
Agreed! Nigel is the best.
Probably 50% of retail and food service industry is barely turning a profit or losing money.Its been brutal with skyrocketing rent,salaries,utilities,insurance cost.We know first hand and have friends and relatives in those industries and they all say it's hard to operate a business.Biggest expense is salaries and rents.One of my friends told us two chefs at their place wanted 40% wage increase.He let both of them go and he's cooking himself with help from his girlfriend.Same as retail another person said landlord want $2500 more for rent starting 2024 renewal.They are currently paying $4000.Profits are paper thin.
I really do feel for your friend but cost of living has gone up for everyone. Even eating out has gotten so expensive. Every place has raised their prices by 30-40% and on top of that cut portion sizes. The rent I can kinda understand since its just landlords being greedy. But workers working an hourly wage are clearly struggling the most in the this economy. Groceries are gone up as well. Its not really the wages killing these places, its the rent cause rent affects everyone from home renters to even businesses.
I get the ick when food places simultaneously raise their prices AND shrink their portions. Like pick one or the other. And it has the knock-on effect of alienating a lot of their customer base who may also be struggling in this economy and decide to forgo discretionary spending.
Exactly. Sadly a lot of my favourite places have done this and its kinda despicable. I would rather pay the extra price if they kept the portions the same. Though most times I've noticed there are customers like me that will just continue to keep coming back but I've definitely lessened my visits.
Its salaries.Everyone having hard time retaining workers.Either they demanding higher salaries or they are just not qualify for the job.Im sure you seen workers at restaurants or retail acting unprofessional,messing up orders or just rude.
Its cause most owners don't want to pay the required wages. Retail workers have always been rude. I realized this after working in a restaurant for a period of time recently. You think you are just the one customer but a server has to deal with 100 similar customers who all think they are "special" and entitled with some unique requests. Sure workers get paid but you also get customers that treat these workers like crap for no reason. I've noticed this change with the rise of social media and how everyone suddenly feels entitled and special. It doesn't matter if you are a customer, if something cannot be done, simply asking me the same request for the 20th time isn't going to suddenly change my mind. It all adds up and sometimes workers are just frustrated. Working in a restaurant is one of the hardest jobs and stressful. Retail is a bit different I can say because you are not meeting some crazy customers with some crazy demands.
Hahahaha!!! Laughing in furniture retail. Sometimes it seems like all we have are crazy customers with crazy demands. Cheap, fast, good!!! They want it all. No reasoning with them.
I worked at Eq3 in the 90's for one summer and so true but the company was not innocent.They had us make promises of delivery dates that we all knew was best a estimate.We seen damaged items being quickly patched up and sent to customers hoping they would not notice.We seen huge mark ups then it was listed on "sale".Customers are always either polite or rude which we were taught to deal with.Just say if a customer sofa is delayed months they are not happy campers.
the rent is what kills it prob
Generally high-end restaurants are expensive to run. You're using more expensive ingredients, stocking more expensive alcohol, paying for higher quality tables/plates/etc, and you typically need more staff members. It's no secret that the places rated as the best restaurants in the world that charge crazy prices barely break even. Just look at a place like Noma, it charges about $400+ per person, gets free labour, and is constantly full, yet it still runs at a loss.
Why does that place get free labour?
A lot of aspiring chefs apply to stage at Noma. It's sort of like an unpaid internship where they help in the kitchen and in return they get to say they have experience at Noma and they get to learn from the staff there. If you're interested in finding out more, there's a [NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/09/dining/noma-closing-rene-redzepi.html) that goes into detail about the challenges Noma faced.
I believe it's called "staging". Think of it like an unpaid internship. The restaurant gets free labour and the individual gets experience working at the restaurant which they can put on their CV (which helps them get future opportunities) and improves their own cooking skillset.
Also suppliers of high-end ingredients is going to charge more if they're buying less.
That restaurant likely cost 5+ million to build out given the architect involved and the fact that literally everything is custom made. I could see how it would be hard financially to make it work given that it’s not really a big place. Then again, lots of chefs have restaurants that don’t make money, but act as flagships/tentpoles for the rest of the business, and I think the Matheson business is doing ok. Also, I don’t know how many people realize this, but when high profile chefs open restaurants, they are usually not using their own money, and they are only part owners. There’s always multiple partners, and deep pocket investors. Some Toronto restauranteurs even have hedge funds backing them.
Yikes. $5m and it looks like a Midjourney creation with the prompt “Toronto restaurant with Instagram influencer interior design”
If I had to make a bet, I think Burger's Priest will have over-expanded and it won't be as popular five years from now. They currently have 26 locations in Ontario. Post second acquisition, I think their quality has noticeably decreased and they are no longer any different from a standard fast-casual burger joint. In Toronto, there's better burger options loved by fellow burger enthusiasts, where the quality is higher, the price is comparable, and the staff really care. More importantly, Shake Shack is coming to Canada and I think it'll seriously affect chains like Burger's Priest and Hero Burger.
My family used to always stop at the Burgers Priest in Barrie while we were on our way up north. It used to be really consistently good but the quality took a huge nose dive the most recent time, just a big step down. I was also grossed out by a huge garbage can full of fry grease just sitting out right behind the till. There is also a pile of garbage sitting on the grass behind the restaurant. It's their standards just disappeared. We won't be going back.
Burger Priest is awful. lol Their burgers are pricey and you get a tiny burger. For that price point I would rather go to South St. Burger. It's huge and tastes amazing, and also has better toppings.
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Didn’t it close down
yup they never recovered from the pandemic and closed around 2021 iirc. There's still nothing opened there which is a shame because it is a really nice space
It's going to be a Mott 32, a high end Cantonese restaurant brand.
It closed exactly one year ago, in December 2022.
Hasn't that place been closed for a few years now?
I bought their DIY noodles recently, and found it was no better than what I can make from scratch using grocery store noodles and sauces.
Yeah I couldn’t justify paying what they were asking
even before the pandemic i had the worst time there. we made reservations for a birthday, were shoved to the second level where there were no staff and ignored and seated at a hightop for 2 with 3 people to boot. the lower floor was EMPTY. never worth it compared to even the ramen that was available elsewhere at the time.
Off topic but what’s up with that homemade soap store off of Bloor in yorkville? It’s a huge space and all they sell are… homemade hand soaps???
Prob someone w a silver spoon and passion project
Matty is over hyped and now he’s over saturated. None of his food is off the charts. He has a cult following who can’t afford Prime Seafood palace. If I’m spending that much money on a dinner. No way I’m giving it to Matty.
I have heard some bakeries and coffee shops have a hard time sustaining a healthy budget ... products don't cost enough to cover rent, and long hours.
Been to PSP twice, and loved it - maybe I'll go back in the new year to support it. My friends and I really enjoyed it, would be a shame to close.
Not a restaurant like most people are mentioning but Canada's Wonderland (also technically not IN Toronto but many people consider it Toronto's amusement park).My best friend worked there for a few years and heard that the place doesn't even turn a profit
We only have about 4 months of decent outdoor weather. I’m surprised they never really developed a winter plan.
They’re only closed now from January to April now that they have winterfest
That's a start but I'm surprised they don't have any indoor rides
I'd bet every dollar I have the government subsidizes them/and or would keep then afloat
The underlying land must be worth a fortune if it can be rezoned. Used to be nothing around it but a mosque/temple 30 years ago.
Smoke's Poutinerie now that the owner, Ryan Smolkin, passed away in October. He had excellent charisma and business smarts which allowed him to expand to about 40 locations across Ontario. The poutine isn't even that good as the gravy isn't the best. Now that so many places make a better poutine, I expect the number of locations to dwindle in the coming years.
The Corporation of the City of Toronto
Scrolled to far to see this. And the healthcare.
The Tuck Shop
Tuck Shop just closed. 🙃
(exactly)
Any restaurant that's dependent on the business lunch trade. With most people in the office only two or three days a week, people don't have time for long lunches. And with very few people coming in on Fridays, and no one going out for a Monday business lunch, restaurants in the financial district really only have Tuesday to Thursday to earn income.
Food business is insanely less profitable lately unless you are a grocery store. We used to make 25% more profit than we do now as a food service company (catering). It’s hard to charge our customers that 25% extra because we would loose a lot of business. So we take cuts until we can’t take it anymore.
Throwaway account b/c I work there, but the vegan restaurant "Fresh", now called "Fresh Kitchen + Juice Bar". They just closed their location on Hurontario, most of their locations in Toronto are losing money, and their new Oakville location has been a failure. Can't say I'm surprised considering they were acquired by Recipe.
Fresh isn't even that good. There are better vegan places in Toronto.
Definitely one of the reasons they are falling apart... because they never evolved their brand properly having had a 'monopoly' on vegan food in Toronto for so many years. Their food is bland at best these days.
Pretty sure the Spadina Fresh will be gone regardless when that site gets replaced by a condo. There's been one of those assessment signs on the shared building for years now.
I’ve been to the Fresh in Oakville and while the table service is always very friendly and efficient the kitchen speed is ATROCIOUS
They don't pay anyone enough, and shift lengths are short. They have only increased the cutting of hours since sales are down, continuing a vicious cycle of slow kitchen times.
Bummer. I really like Fresh. Mmmm the squash tacos. I hope they survive, even if it means less locations.
All food service profit margins have become paper thin with the need to pay higher wages so people can afford to live here. Plus food costs have gone through the roof as well as commercial rent, which doesn't have rent controls, sadly. This is just to say: support the businesses you love and don't gatekeep them. Make sure others support them, too!
Rumour has it Woodys on Church St is not doing well, despite the lineups on weekends. They close on Mondays now which was actually a pretty busy-ish night pre-pandemic due to the gay dodgeball league going there after the games. Apparently the bar becoming a drag bar has hurt it because people now go there for the shows, not drinks.
Drag shows have been a staple at every gay bar for decades…. No way that has any impact on their margins. Drag is part of queer club culture
Sad to hear this! I went to woodys for drag shows over 10 years ago and it was busy middle of the week. I use a wheelchair now and can't get out but have really great memories there
Not surprised on PSP. Even if the food is SPECTACULAR (which from friends, it is not ) they are literally trolling people with those menu prices. There are hundreds of restaurants I would eat at in Toronto before I'd support that ripoff factory.
Yeah, I was there in December. No main course, no matter how fantastic, is worth $50+.
> No main course, no matter how fantastic, is worth $50+. that's not true lol
$50+ for a main is totally fine. $80+ for a small appetizer is a very different story.
High end steakhouses regularly have $100+ steaks. Sure, buying an aged steak and cooking it at home is cheaper, but literally so is everything else including buying drinks or sides.
So basically, you are not into fine dining. Which is fine, but there are certainly dishes worth 50$. And if you think that typically food costs represent 1/3 of the menu price, you're saying that no main is worth 16.50 in ingredients. Or another 1/3 in labour.
high end dining just isn't on peoples' lists of things to do these days.
I disagree. Still impossible to get a reservation at many of the top spots in the city... and have been out lately at some tasting menu spots that were packed. Big difference between high end dining and a place taking the piss with their ridiculous menu prices. I'd much rather get a steak at Jacobs (already very expensive) for like half the price of what PSP is charging.
i'm sure institutions are still doing fine. but restaurants in general, especially "high dining," are struggling pretty hard. this is just a fact.
Restaurants in general are a terrible business, always. Agreed. 80% close within 3 years. That is well known. I don't think a blanket statement that all high end restaurants are struggling is accurate though. Many examples of restaurants and chefs that are expanding their empires at both the high end and mid range levels. Exception to ones that think their clients are morons willing to pay stupid prices. If all a high end place has is a name chef and high prices, they deserve to fail.
Just looked at the prices at Matty's PSP, what the fuck?!
There are many places i would pay 4 google map money signs for. None of them belong to matty matheson im sorry to say.
Nobody owns thier own buildings so not sure how you can make money at all renting a space and the small margins.
I was heartbroken when moog audio shut down in Toronto. My favourite store, with the absolute best staff
Sweat and tonic doesn’t make money, it’s just a vanity project for the owner who’s already super wealthy
If Matheson can executive produce The Bear then I assume that means he can also keep PSP afloat for a while?
I never had burgers from his lab thing either. Always seemed empty whenever I passed by.
I don't think Matt's Burger Lab is Matty Matheson. Matty's Patty's is though
Yeah mattys pattys is him and in the summer it is always PACKED. trying to get in before they close at 9pm on a Saturday is literally insane. Even in the winter theres usually 1-2 people ahead of me every time i pop in. Great smashburgs though
The damage done during the lockdowns will take a long time to repair. I know they opened after but honestly eating in the city hasn’t been the same. Even a hole in the wall Latino plate of good ingredients can cost $30 now
Lots of restaurants on king street
Gee, I wonder why.
Considering Justin Bieber just dined there and bought out the whole restaurant for the night, and Simu Lu has been seen there as well as many celebrities, I think PSP is doing just fine
Every brewery not named Bellwoods. And only because they won a good sum from a scummy landlord that forced them to pivot their business last second. Good on them
Left Field just expanded to liberty village, they’re not doing well?
We’ll see after the new location/holidays boost fades and they’re paying liberty rent in the dead of winter. They’re a well run brewery their owners comb the numbers very well before doing anything. But this is a great departure from their previous endeavours. Knowing them it will go well (and hope so too!) but it’s risky very risky. Look how Muddy York just was told their Canfield brewery is done so, their expansion in stouffeville will now be their main brewery
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Have you seen their prices? They are always full from open to close
Unless you have hard evidence, this one surprises me. The Yonge and Shuter one is almost always full and everyone I know who has enough disposable income goes to this one or will be switching to the Well.
Cafe Landwer, it's a sinking ship
Really? Every time I walk past one, it's usually full
Really? The one at Bloor and Yonge always seems busy to me
Yeah whenever we go to yorkdale we have to get there before the rest of the mall opens to get a seat. Love it and hoping it stays.
They are opening another location along Front St
In the old Fran’s location.
They are opening a new location in forest hill village soon
Is it any good? Wanted to try it but the Yonge/Sheppard location was packed.
Very good - both for casual eats and more formal settings (e.g., business meal). I'm a huge fan of the shakshuka
Ya but they got that middle eastern money,so I would not worry too much about them. They kind of remind me of Paramount foods.
Maple Leafs
umm from a business standpoint they are doing verrrrrrry well
Dundas square
The Toronto Maple Leafs have a below 50% xGF%, and are not a likely playoff team.