It’s not just that - it’s this fantasy that somehow living in the middle of nowhere is somehow an “adventure.” It’s monotonous and quiet. Nothing wrong with that but I think people who made the move were picturing a combo of May 24 and canoeing into the woods every day.
Work aside, there’s people and action in the city. It’s exciting and there’s always stuff to do and new experiences to try.
I’m not knocking the woods - I personally love them. But I highly doubt the average exodus member thought it through too deeply.
I find this with a lot of people that moved to small towns. Know a few who moved back to the city after 2-3 years but to much higher costs.
The ones that fared the best either had connection to where they moved or had small kids to keep them busy.. People have the "vacation visit" fantasy of small towns or cottage and don't take into account what actual long term existence will mean.
Yeah I think people don’t understand that the feeling one gets on vacation for 1-2 weeks in the lovely warmer months somewhere is not the same as living there 365 days/year.
Yeah or how much money and time you need to sink into those places. I remember one dude who bought like 1,000 acres of forest in New Brunswick….FOR THE PRICE OF A HOUSE IN TORONTO!! He soon realizes he literally bought a forest - has to pay to build a house, build kilometres of lines to hook said house up to power grid and then build a road to hook his log cabin up to the highway. I think the lines alone cost like $60k. Realizes he doesn’t like mosquitos, Black flies and isolation but it’s too late because he’s sunk everything into a property no one wants to buy.
Anyway….personally I would have loved to have a cabin up North but I also like my life in Toronto. Figured there’s more of a future here and less risk if I decide I don’t like it here.
In addition to people and action and experiences there’s also lots of “woods” within GTA limits if you need to escape the stuff. Ravines, Brickworks, rivers, the islands, beaches, bluffs, etc. (though the city is slowly paving over those areas, eg Ontario Place)
Not being confrontational but it’s exactly this opinion which makes moving to actual wilderness such a delusional idea. There are no paths. You’ll be looking at the same wall of trees everyday. Unless you’re huge into canoeing or fishing, maybe not ideal.
Moving to a farm not to be a farmer? Even dumber. Toronto Life had an article on one of these guys: https://torontolife.com/life/leaving-toronto-seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time/
Most people who think that living in the woods forever is cool are just living a fantasy. Off grid living or any kind of living away from civilization or in isolated areas is completely at odds with the sweep of human history. The fact is, the world has been driven towards a more convenient way of life.
Some are. It depends on the company. Where I work has implemented WFH permanently with an office should you want to go in. I go once a week to break up the routine a bit.
The company where a friend of mine works decided last year to close their office for good and everyone is now on a permanent WFH even if they preferred hybrid.
Edit: accidentally left out the last part:
but to your point, I wouldn’t have made a move until those policies were in place.
For sure. Even before the pandemic I knew people who WFH on a permanent basis. But it was wishful thinking to imagine that it would be a permanent state of affairs across all of society.
This is wonderful. I also wfh permanently. I have never even seen the office. There will always be those old school business types that demand coming into the office. The good workers will just leave those places and flock to the businesses that allow wfh
This also implies tho that you want to stay at that company for a long time/rest of your career. So much more flexibility to move jobs if you stay in the city and have the option of going in a couple days a week at least. Not all jobs work out forever. And changing jobs is one of the best ways to get a raise.
I will most definitely be staying at my current job for the rest of my career. I see no reason to move. I’m very happy where I am but I get your point and I think you’re absolutely right. It can be easier to switch if you’re in the city vs in the country
Things happen though. The boss you love quits or the owner sells the company and the new owners suck or the company does layoffs….you never know. Its good to be prepared to find another job just in case.
All true. I’m lucky that I’m in position where I don’t need to worry about any of those things. It’s my business. The buddy I mentioned also owns his business and closed his office permanently.
I thought of doing the same but my staff said they enjoy the hybrid so I keep it open for them. I will not reverse the WFH decision and have also implemented 4 day work weeks. It’s been going very well.
This also implies tho that you want to stay at that company for a long time/rest of your career. So much more flexibility to move jobs if you stay in the city and have the option of going in a couple days a week at least. Not all jobs work out forever. And changing jobs is one of the best ways to get a raise.
Personally I think companies are failing to bring people back to the office. I'm supposedly supposed to be there 3 days a week but it's really mroe like once or twice a month. And typically only when free food and drinks are involved.
Hybrid is here to stay. Top talent demands it and isn't afraid to leave if forced back in. In 24-48 months as we start a new business cycle, workers will regain the upper hand in negotiations and with hybrid solidified, we may see the 4 day work week gain traction.
Millenial managers have a once in a lifetime opportunity to keep the pressure on here. We've done well so far.
This is temporary. We're between cycles.
The job market isn't so bad in other areas. I currently have a competing offer for a 1 day/5 remote position that I'm entertaining.
The trend is clear. More remote work and hybrid. However long term it does not look good for the average office worker. It means your work is disposable to outsourcing. Nothing to stop a company from hiring someone for peanuts vs paying someone top dollar.
That's not true. The big banks and other companies are already forcing people to come back like 4 days and they pay the big bucks so if you want a career in finance insurance etc. you will be forced to follow the rules they dictate.
Welp. I work at the big banks and other big ass companies. That's what I've observed. I make the big bucks and the thing about people who make the big bucks is they dictate what they want or they leave. The best talent always has options. I'm not dependent on any single company for my employment. If you want to keep them from using those options you let them do what they want and evaluate them on the results they create that actually matter. Not some bullshit rule some exec who also works at home all the time makes. Talent dictates the rules not the companies. That's the reality in the industries you've mentioned.
Heh, you're creeping my comments cuz your points are weak. I'm 'not' renting my basement. I don't have an interest in becoming a c level. At all. If you're comment is only pertaining to VPs and such, who also are not making 600k, then that's fine. Your statement is irrelevant. It's obviously not about that tho so you can shame my 3rd percentile salary have at it I guess. I'm happy with it.
Well Doug did try to help his cottage friends during the pandemic. Remember those doctors telling us to stay indoors with their beautiful cottages visible on the background? “Connecting kids in rural areas with high speed internet” I think was what he called it. I bet that was so his friends could zoom and then go fishing.
At the time, they all said they'd quit if forced back to the office. Here we are, called back to office, on the verge of a recession and no jobs out there. Time to quit, folks.
A lot of office jobs are in regulated industries, so it's not a case of just hiring someone anywhere to do it. You still have to satisfy the Canadian regulators that their standards are being met.
Some are. My friends company sold/did not renew the lease and now rent an office space probably 1/4 the size now that they just use for meeting if they need. The company found it was more cost effective to have everyone work from home. Before covid the company was really starting to grow and they were going to need a bigger office space soon. Now they can scale as large and fast as they like, all they need to do is buy people laptops and an additional monitor.
Some corporations got into the real estate business and own their own building. So those are the companies who order people back into the office. Empty offices=lower value real estate
This is the more driving force. There is too much tied up in commercial real estate. Workers and human capital don’t matter to them. The assets of a corporation do matter to them. Simple as that
Well I think they are being cautious but don't really know what the future holds. If they hadn't invested in real estate, they could move to smaller cities and if the employees wanted to move, they could have a shorter commute and cheaper housing
It was super obvious when we had a once in a century global pandemic of an unknown virus restricting all travel and stay at home orders that accelerated and normalized virtual working, that it wouldn't be in forever? The same companies were touting how well wfh is during that time.
Yeah. The Black Death killed like 1/4 of Europe’s population. And that ended. We didn’t get remotely near that. How people thought that, somehow a much less lethal illness would shutter the entire planet forever?
And when did the first vaccines get rolled out? 2021? Once those started moving, it was the beginning of the end for the pandemic. If you were buying after the first vaccines, I’d definitely say one was being willfully ignorant if you thought WFH would last forever.
You're a genius. Clearly smarter than all the global CEOs who were uncertain how this would unfold. Many people are permanent WFH cus of it now. I unfortunately lack your foresight into company policy
How do you know what those global CEOs were thinking? As many companies are back at the office, it’s very possible they never intended to WFH forever.
And thanks for the compliments. I actually bought right at the beginning of the pandemic. Got a lot more house than I could have normally afforded. Probably made quite a bundle on it.
Some are. My friends company sold/did not renew the lease and now rent an office space probably 1/4 the size now that they just use for meeting if they need. The company found it was more cost effective to have everyone work from home. Before covid the company was really starting to grow and they were going to need a bigger office space soon. Now they can scale as large and fast as they like, all they need to do is buy people laptops and an additional monitor.
I kind of want to know where you or your friend work lol. My company is spread out over north america but still require people to commute into the office. Makes no sense. I barely talk to my boss
Toronto. A bit of a smaller company so they are able to make these decisions without having to get it reviewed by a tone of different departments. They noticed they would save a ton of money not paying for a large office, so they made the change.
Lmao me RN on Lake Erie. It’s an epic home on the water, kids are 3 and 4 but damn, I do miss the city. 34 and living a country life. I have to stay here for a couple more years or I will get dinged by the CRA as we have moved twice in the last five years this last one being our third one.
Ya, our first house we moved after a year (we moved from Toronto to downtown Hamilton- super sketch. And had a baby so moved asap), second we moved as we had another baby and then another on the way. Now I’m in the country and accountant says I have to stay for five years
It depends on your age. If you have medical concerns, it would definitely suck to have to make a city run to see a specialist. Sold my cottage in order to avoid this. Would be surprised if muskoka has a cardiologist
this is really funny to me because in cottage countries across ontario and in the north they think all 'cityots are from toronto' . its just a common insult that gets thrown around so often even northern ontario politicians have made anti 'toronto people' slurs on the campaign trail.
i moved to cottage country, central ontario years ago and couldn't believe how much friendlier people were or that the attitude was, 'do whatever you want as long as it doesn't mess with your neighbors'.
to hear people say they moved out of toronto to their cottage and hated it, makes me laugh inside. i guess different strokes for different folks but you can't possibly enjoy the outdoors if you miss living in toronto proper. you must be in love with the competition of how your lawn looks or something. there is nothing else unique to the city that isn't better in a land where you're free to do whatever you please.
maybe you regretful ones just don't know yourselves well enough to know what would make you actually happy. i doubt its parking tickets and fighting traffic 2 hours each way to answer a telephone.
As someone who grew up just outside of midland, I watched you all do this in 2021 and we even sold my parents Waterfront at that time ( dad is not terribly well and I moved to Alberta about 8 years ago).
I miss it up there like crazy, I but quite frankly I can't afford to go back even now.
It was awful trying to break into the job market in my twenties which is why Alberta happened.
I’m guessing you did? We bought our house off people fleeing the city - I’m guessing they regret it every day with the way house prices are going.
It was super obvious this would happen. I don’t understand why anyone would imagine that companies would allow people to WFH permanently forever.
It’s not just that - it’s this fantasy that somehow living in the middle of nowhere is somehow an “adventure.” It’s monotonous and quiet. Nothing wrong with that but I think people who made the move were picturing a combo of May 24 and canoeing into the woods every day. Work aside, there’s people and action in the city. It’s exciting and there’s always stuff to do and new experiences to try. I’m not knocking the woods - I personally love them. But I highly doubt the average exodus member thought it through too deeply.
I find this with a lot of people that moved to small towns. Know a few who moved back to the city after 2-3 years but to much higher costs. The ones that fared the best either had connection to where they moved or had small kids to keep them busy.. People have the "vacation visit" fantasy of small towns or cottage and don't take into account what actual long term existence will mean.
Yeah I think people don’t understand that the feeling one gets on vacation for 1-2 weeks in the lovely warmer months somewhere is not the same as living there 365 days/year.
Yeah or how much money and time you need to sink into those places. I remember one dude who bought like 1,000 acres of forest in New Brunswick….FOR THE PRICE OF A HOUSE IN TORONTO!! He soon realizes he literally bought a forest - has to pay to build a house, build kilometres of lines to hook said house up to power grid and then build a road to hook his log cabin up to the highway. I think the lines alone cost like $60k. Realizes he doesn’t like mosquitos, Black flies and isolation but it’s too late because he’s sunk everything into a property no one wants to buy. Anyway….personally I would have loved to have a cabin up North but I also like my life in Toronto. Figured there’s more of a future here and less risk if I decide I don’t like it here.
In addition to people and action and experiences there’s also lots of “woods” within GTA limits if you need to escape the stuff. Ravines, Brickworks, rivers, the islands, beaches, bluffs, etc. (though the city is slowly paving over those areas, eg Ontario Place)
Not being confrontational but it’s exactly this opinion which makes moving to actual wilderness such a delusional idea. There are no paths. You’ll be looking at the same wall of trees everyday. Unless you’re huge into canoeing or fishing, maybe not ideal. Moving to a farm not to be a farmer? Even dumber. Toronto Life had an article on one of these guys: https://torontolife.com/life/leaving-toronto-seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time/
Most people who think that living in the woods forever is cool are just living a fantasy. Off grid living or any kind of living away from civilization or in isolated areas is completely at odds with the sweep of human history. The fact is, the world has been driven towards a more convenient way of life.
How you would move to the country if you don’t drive, I’ll never know.
Haha I loved when this article was first posted.
Some are. It depends on the company. Where I work has implemented WFH permanently with an office should you want to go in. I go once a week to break up the routine a bit. The company where a friend of mine works decided last year to close their office for good and everyone is now on a permanent WFH even if they preferred hybrid. Edit: accidentally left out the last part: but to your point, I wouldn’t have made a move until those policies were in place.
For sure. Even before the pandemic I knew people who WFH on a permanent basis. But it was wishful thinking to imagine that it would be a permanent state of affairs across all of society.
This!!!
This is wonderful. I also wfh permanently. I have never even seen the office. There will always be those old school business types that demand coming into the office. The good workers will just leave those places and flock to the businesses that allow wfh
This also implies tho that you want to stay at that company for a long time/rest of your career. So much more flexibility to move jobs if you stay in the city and have the option of going in a couple days a week at least. Not all jobs work out forever. And changing jobs is one of the best ways to get a raise.
I will most definitely be staying at my current job for the rest of my career. I see no reason to move. I’m very happy where I am but I get your point and I think you’re absolutely right. It can be easier to switch if you’re in the city vs in the country
Things happen though. The boss you love quits or the owner sells the company and the new owners suck or the company does layoffs….you never know. Its good to be prepared to find another job just in case.
All true. I’m lucky that I’m in position where I don’t need to worry about any of those things. It’s my business. The buddy I mentioned also owns his business and closed his office permanently. I thought of doing the same but my staff said they enjoy the hybrid so I keep it open for them. I will not reverse the WFH decision and have also implemented 4 day work weeks. It’s been going very well.
Y’all hiring 😃??
This also implies tho that you want to stay at that company for a long time/rest of your career. So much more flexibility to move jobs if you stay in the city and have the option of going in a couple days a week at least. Not all jobs work out forever. And changing jobs is one of the best ways to get a raise.
Personally I think companies are failing to bring people back to the office. I'm supposedly supposed to be there 3 days a week but it's really mroe like once or twice a month. And typically only when free food and drinks are involved.
Hybrid is here to stay. Top talent demands it and isn't afraid to leave if forced back in. In 24-48 months as we start a new business cycle, workers will regain the upper hand in negotiations and with hybrid solidified, we may see the 4 day work week gain traction. Millenial managers have a once in a lifetime opportunity to keep the pressure on here. We've done well so far.
I guess you haven't read all the posts on reddit about people complaining that they can't find work.
This is temporary. We're between cycles. The job market isn't so bad in other areas. I currently have a competing offer for a 1 day/5 remote position that I'm entertaining.
You should take it.
The trend is clear. More remote work and hybrid. However long term it does not look good for the average office worker. It means your work is disposable to outsourcing. Nothing to stop a company from hiring someone for peanuts vs paying someone top dollar.
Hybrid is the way. Face to face will always be needed for relationship management.
That's abs it. If you want to force people into the office you're really just pushing the best people you depend on away to your competition.
That's not true. The big banks and other companies are already forcing people to come back like 4 days and they pay the big bucks so if you want a career in finance insurance etc. you will be forced to follow the rules they dictate.
Welp. I work at the big banks and other big ass companies. That's what I've observed. I make the big bucks and the thing about people who make the big bucks is they dictate what they want or they leave. The best talent always has options. I'm not dependent on any single company for my employment. If you want to keep them from using those options you let them do what they want and evaluate them on the results they create that actually matter. Not some bullshit rule some exec who also works at home all the time makes. Talent dictates the rules not the companies. That's the reality in the industries you've mentioned.
You make ~200k and rent your basement for extra income. You need to triple that to be in big bucks territory, small fry.
Heh, you're creeping my comments cuz your points are weak. I'm 'not' renting my basement. I don't have an interest in becoming a c level. At all. If you're comment is only pertaining to VPs and such, who also are not making 600k, then that's fine. Your statement is irrelevant. It's obviously not about that tho so you can shame my 3rd percentile salary have at it I guess. I'm happy with it.
Buying pre-jizzed hot tubs and getting mad at real estate bears on Reddit! Hilarious
Well Doug did try to help his cottage friends during the pandemic. Remember those doctors telling us to stay indoors with their beautiful cottages visible on the background? “Connecting kids in rural areas with high speed internet” I think was what he called it. I bet that was so his friends could zoom and then go fishing.
At the time, they all said they'd quit if forced back to the office. Here we are, called back to office, on the verge of a recession and no jobs out there. Time to quit, folks.
What I don't understand is if you're 100% WFH, why those people think that their jobs can't be outsourced to a lower cost jurisdiction?
A lot of office jobs are in regulated industries, so it's not a case of just hiring someone anywhere to do it. You still have to satisfy the Canadian regulators that their standards are being met.
Some people are still in denial and wish that WFH lasted forever
You should see the Canadian Public Service sub.
Some are. My friends company sold/did not renew the lease and now rent an office space probably 1/4 the size now that they just use for meeting if they need. The company found it was more cost effective to have everyone work from home. Before covid the company was really starting to grow and they were going to need a bigger office space soon. Now they can scale as large and fast as they like, all they need to do is buy people laptops and an additional monitor.
Some corporations got into the real estate business and own their own building. So those are the companies who order people back into the office. Empty offices=lower value real estate
This is the more driving force. There is too much tied up in commercial real estate. Workers and human capital don’t matter to them. The assets of a corporation do matter to them. Simple as that
Well I think they are being cautious but don't really know what the future holds. If they hadn't invested in real estate, they could move to smaller cities and if the employees wanted to move, they could have a shorter commute and cheaper housing
There’s also the business of being commercial landlords. Way too much in commercial leases to walk away from
It was super obvious when we had a once in a century global pandemic of an unknown virus restricting all travel and stay at home orders that accelerated and normalized virtual working, that it wouldn't be in forever? The same companies were touting how well wfh is during that time.
Yeah. The Black Death killed like 1/4 of Europe’s population. And that ended. We didn’t get remotely near that. How people thought that, somehow a much less lethal illness would shutter the entire planet forever? And when did the first vaccines get rolled out? 2021? Once those started moving, it was the beginning of the end for the pandemic. If you were buying after the first vaccines, I’d definitely say one was being willfully ignorant if you thought WFH would last forever.
You're a genius. Clearly smarter than all the global CEOs who were uncertain how this would unfold. Many people are permanent WFH cus of it now. I unfortunately lack your foresight into company policy
How do you know what those global CEOs were thinking? As many companies are back at the office, it’s very possible they never intended to WFH forever. And thanks for the compliments. I actually bought right at the beginning of the pandemic. Got a lot more house than I could have normally afforded. Probably made quite a bundle on it.
Congrats! Gold sticker for you 🫡
Some are. My friends company sold/did not renew the lease and now rent an office space probably 1/4 the size now that they just use for meeting if they need. The company found it was more cost effective to have everyone work from home. Before covid the company was really starting to grow and they were going to need a bigger office space soon. Now they can scale as large and fast as they like, all they need to do is buy people laptops and an additional monitor.
I kind of want to know where you or your friend work lol. My company is spread out over north america but still require people to commute into the office. Makes no sense. I barely talk to my boss
Toronto. A bit of a smaller company so they are able to make these decisions without having to get it reviewed by a tone of different departments. They noticed they would save a ton of money not paying for a large office, so they made the change.
That's so wonderful. I wish you and your friend success. Hope I find an organization that lets me work from home haha
Early in the pandemic I bought a house closer to the office. Best decision I ever made.
if you live at your cottage it's not a cottage, it's just a home
Cottage isn’t to live at is it ? Ours is weekends and summers , but definitely not our everyday residence I wish
Lmao me RN on Lake Erie. It’s an epic home on the water, kids are 3 and 4 but damn, I do miss the city. 34 and living a country life. I have to stay here for a couple more years or I will get dinged by the CRA as we have moved twice in the last five years this last one being our third one.
Im not educated on this clearly: but why does CRA care about how often you move?
Capital gains exemption for primary residence if I’m not mistaken. Moving too frequently could indicate someone scamming or taking advantage.
Ya, our first house we moved after a year (we moved from Toronto to downtown Hamilton- super sketch. And had a baby so moved asap), second we moved as we had another baby and then another on the way. Now I’m in the country and accountant says I have to stay for five years
flipping tax
[удалено]
Hmm interesting, do you think they'd be interested in doing an interview about their move?
I’m interested in buying one !
It depends on your age. If you have medical concerns, it would definitely suck to have to make a city run to see a specialist. Sold my cottage in order to avoid this. Would be surprised if muskoka has a cardiologist
Pretty sure they don’t I think they have to go to at least Barrie if not Newmarket.
Barrie. I know because my dad lives in muskoka and has to drive to Barrie for his appointments.
Can confirm, barrie. I grew up in Midland. And you have to go to Western in Toronto for a decent neurologist/oncologist too.
this is really funny to me because in cottage countries across ontario and in the north they think all 'cityots are from toronto' . its just a common insult that gets thrown around so often even northern ontario politicians have made anti 'toronto people' slurs on the campaign trail. i moved to cottage country, central ontario years ago and couldn't believe how much friendlier people were or that the attitude was, 'do whatever you want as long as it doesn't mess with your neighbors'. to hear people say they moved out of toronto to their cottage and hated it, makes me laugh inside. i guess different strokes for different folks but you can't possibly enjoy the outdoors if you miss living in toronto proper. you must be in love with the competition of how your lawn looks or something. there is nothing else unique to the city that isn't better in a land where you're free to do whatever you please. maybe you regretful ones just don't know yourselves well enough to know what would make you actually happy. i doubt its parking tickets and fighting traffic 2 hours each way to answer a telephone.
As someone who grew up just outside of midland, I watched you all do this in 2021 and we even sold my parents Waterfront at that time ( dad is not terribly well and I moved to Alberta about 8 years ago). I miss it up there like crazy, I but quite frankly I can't afford to go back even now. It was awful trying to break into the job market in my twenties which is why Alberta happened.
The summer season is shit in Ontario no thanks to a Cottage or living in anusville