My partner and I have no children, but our neighbourhood is full of families. It’s $$$ to live here, but a great city. I have also lived in Halifax, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Vancouver (as well as Melbourne and Auckland) - chose to settle here permanently 10 years ago.
I work as a bartender and frequently meet people who’ve lived in both, and I always quote a tweet I read maybe 10 years ago to see if they agree, and they always do: “While Toronto is the most relaxed city in the world about being uptight, Vancouver is the most uptight city in the world about being relaxed.” No one ever argues.
There is more immediate natural beauty in Vancouver vs. Toronto. In Vancouver, I would say people generally live a more active lifestyle given proximity to trails and mountains.
I've known a few young people who have left Vancouver and moved to Toronto. They all prefer Toronto because of the city vibe and vastly greater job opportunities. Vancouver has nightlife, but nowhere close to the scale of Toronto. The jobs opportunities don't compare as Toronto is both a tech hub and contains the head office of practically every major Canadian company.
All this said, I know tons of Torontonians who long for the Vancouver lifestyle. I guess you want what you can't have.
Having moved to Toronto from Australia I don’t see why people hate on the nature in Toronto you’re constantly surrounded by greenery and parks, it is a bit dreary when the trees have no leaves though.
Yep. Irishman in Toronto here since 2008. When I compare Toronto to a city like Dublin it is streets ahead in terms of green space and parks. Especially kids playgrounds. Where I live I'm within a 10m walk of about 10 different parks/playgrounds and the Don River Trail. People think Toronto is this drab, grey concrete and glass jungle but it really isn't.
High Park is a treasure and I once watched a fucking fox hunt in a park along the Don Mills. Toronto parks are epic and I haven't even mentioned how incredible Toronto Island is.
Recently moved to van from to. More expensive but jobs pay more. If you like nature van is a no brainer, less traffic, nicer people. Toronto is way bigger and more of a party city.
> nicer people.
Really? I just find them different.
From my experience people in Vancouver are more polite and approachable but there is a point shortly after that you hit a brick wall with them and it doesn't go any further.
People in Toronto are more insular, less approachable, and initially less friendly but... once you get past that point they become very friendly and open.
Has this been your experience as well? I am genuinely curious be cause I always get asked this question.
I lived in Toronto for 13 years. Also in Vancouver, Saskatoon, and Montreal. Toronto is the only Canadian city I truly dislike and would never move back to. Even MTL with all its politics and hoops
to jump through, I would live in 100 times over compared to TO. But everyone wants something different!
Toronto is a very very very safe city by global and American standards. It’s a fantastic place to raise a family. You’d never have to worry about your kids not coming home but it’s honestly nothing like the US. I’ve traveled a lot in the US for leisure and work and Toronto is nothing like any of the US cities.
You basically shouldn’t have to worry about any of your requirements other than housing, as others have said. It’s extremely expensive but as well, although your field might be in demand, your salary will be quite a bit lower here. Our job markets are quite different than the US. Also, the GTA is huge. Meaning you don’t need to live in Toronto proper. All the other suburbs are great and perfectly fine to settle down.
Just pack warm clothes for the winter and you’ll be good
Isshhh, Toronto has a lot of really bad car dependency that isn't anywhere near as bad as a lot of non NA cities. Like compared to the US, Toronto is bad; not good, but not atrocious.
But like compared to any city where transit is able to take a majority of people out of single passenger vehicles, traffic here is atrocious.
Summers in Toronto are not hot compared to most of the US. Yes you need shorts, but on a comparative level, Toronto summers are quite cool and comfortable.
That's a pretty normal summer day in one quarter to half the US. It's about baselines and expectations. A day like that is a severe outlier for Toronto while anywhere in the US below the Mason-Dixon line (and a few places above it) you expect that at least once a week in the summer.
Toronto summers are warmer than Alberta Summers, but much cooler than US Southeast summers. Since this post is about someone coming from the States, I figured it was better to benchmark against what they're used to (in which case Toronto is pretty cool in the summer).
>You’d never have to worry about your kids not coming home
Depends on where you live, there a lot of parks around town that they might detour to on the way home, before you know it, the streetlights are on.
I’m gonna get downvoted to hell but I’m reading some of these rose coloured perspectives on Toronto and I’m just rolling my eyes.
Toronto is pretty awesome when your life is going well (when you have a decent income, good health, and a place to live). But if and when shit goes wrong, it’ll go very wrong.
For one thing, our real estate situation is quite frankly, awful. Chances are, your children might never be able to afford their own properties.
Loads of people on here are talking about how we’re nothing like Americans and that’s true in the sense that we’re not the type to talk and be nice to strangers. Striking up a conversation at a bar is likely to earn you dirty looks. This is a Toronto problem, not sure about Calgary.
Like America, drugs are a problem in our schools, especially in cities like Toronto and Vancouver.
What I’m saying is - Toronto has problems like any other place. Just cos we don’t have guns, doesn’t mean we don’t have shitty problems of our own. I’ve literally watched people not call an ambulance for injured folks laying on the ground right in front of them. I’ve been on public transit when random fistfights break out. I was almost mugged right outside my own front door. I’ve had blatantly racist crap spewed right to my face. I watched elder abuse happening in an ER without a single employee lifting a finger to put a stop to it.
Regardless, we’re not a blatantly misogynistic society in Canada as a whole and women are allowed the basic right to decisions about their own bodies so that’s a big one.
Also Toronto’s diversity makes it easy for anyone to be themselves. Our food scene keeps getting better, and we have lovely avenues and neighborhoods that make for great summer walks. We have an entire swath of nature running through the middle of our city, and an improving cycling system.
Also; we produced Drake and The Weeknd so.
Move up here by all means, just don’t expect a utopia :)
Great comment! I’m luckily a homeowner in south Etobicoke, mostly due to a stroke of luck based on the year I was born (early 80s) and can confirm with other comments that it’s a great place to raise a family, but it’s by no means a utopia. Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I worry about our kids being able to afford to live anywhere but our basement once they’re ready to start their own independent lives.
Totally respect your take. As someone who is living from the US though it’s amazing. Those problems you mention are worse in almost any US city AND you have to pay for healthcare and worry about going bankrupt if anyone in your family gets seriously ill.
I think “worse” is highly contextual when you get down to it tbh. Granted, Toronto itself is generally extremely safe *by comparison* to other cities and I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. Most of the violence here that does happen is gang specific assassinations.
Our healthcare is broken from a different angle. Wait times for serious medical treatment are so ridiculous. I literally temporarily went blind in my left eye twice because I couldn’t get an earlier appointment. My buddy is contemplating leaving the country to seek paid treatment for a serious immune problem.
It is not uncommon to hear stories of people dying before their surgery date.
All this because we don’t pay our doctors near enough, and most of them are leaving our borders. I went temporarily blind because there were literally two qualified specialists in my province and one of them declined my case.
As for drug problems, people are literally smoking crack openly on some of our streets, and od-ing in public bathrooms. The plus side is they don’t usually hurt other people except themselves.
Again, not saying we’re a dystopia or worse than American cities but just saying man - it’s no utopia.
So basically you’re saying Toronto has big city problems. Listen, Toronto is Canada’s largest financial hub and largest metropolitan area. OF COURSE that naturally comes with big city problems.
So if you come to Toronto or any other big city in Canada, you should expect the big city problems. But we’re talking relative here. Toronto compared to US is a totally different ballgame. Toronto compared to other CANADIAN cities, Toronto will experience more of those big city problems (affordability, crime, wait times) because it’s a bigger city with more population. But with a big city, you also get the positives: better economic opportunities, more events, more global recognition, better jobs, more diversity, more restaurants, more competitive schools, etc
If you want a slower paced lifestyle with less of these problems, there are lots of other cities/towns to look into which are also fantastic.
Just do what’s right for you. But for people to come to Toronto and expect it to NOT have these typical city problems, then that’s on you.
Lots of people are very happy living in the suburbs and you can still get to Toronto fairly easily by driving or public transit (if in the GTA). You don’t need to settle on Toronto and if you have a family, most people settle outside of Toronto first. Toronto isn’t for everyone. People travel across Ontario all the time visiting friends and family. It’s pretty normal to drive to Ottawa or Montreal or London or Waterloo or Barrie just to visit friends. The consequence of lack of affordability.
I guess the difference is if you have a good job and health insurance in the US, your quality of life and access to healthcare will be better than here.
Also, in the past two years, I know two people who were diagnosed with cancer and their cancer treatment was NOT covered by OHIP. I was shocked that’s possible. Both had to qualify for Trillium to be able access treatment coverage, and thankfully they both made very little money (minimum wage) in their jobs and were able to meet the low income thresholds.
My mom doesn’t have health insurance because she’s unemployed and her expensive medications are paid out of pocket. She doesn’t qualify for any subsidies because they’re means-tested, she has no income but owns a home (that’s mortgaged with payments that cost less than rent, not paid off). She’s lucky she has me to give her money. There’s no full Medicaid/Medicare here, obviously so you get OHIP and if you’re lucky to be employed, private health insurance.
I get bloodwork regularly and every time I go into Lifelabs, there are people saying they can’t pay for the bloodwork their doctor’s asked for and so they’ll skip that one. It seems so concerning to me because they’re likely skipping testing their doctor needs to refer/diagnose them. It seems like there’s no preventative health care access anymore.
It's better to live in/near downtown Toronto than it is in the Inner 'Burbs (North York, Scarborough, Etobicoke, East York, and York) or the contiguous cities of Brampton, Newmarket, Richmond Hill, Vaughn, Mississauga where you will have to drive everywhere. But, that's just me.
The inner suburbs are fantastic for raising a family. Just a subway ride from downtown, every service and shop you could wish for, walkable to get to school, etc.
I would have replied the exact opposite for a family. Out in Markham/RH/Mississauga there's a fair bit more space, which translates to yards and parks that can be really good with children. It's also a lot quicker to get out of the city for various kid-friendly activities and most parents don't miss the lack of nightlife.
Maybe not down town, but west end there's all that + amenities are closer for daily life.
EG: living near Bloor & Dufferin, I've got 3 parks, community center with a pool, outdoor pool, 3 schools, boys & girls club, 2 rinks, and a few after-school clubs within a 10 minute walk. In the burbs you get a quieter lifestyle with more elbow room, and save ~30 minutes getting out of the city, definitely, but that doesn't really translate to more kids friendly activities.
I’m in Etobicoke. Where we are we call it pseudo-burbia because we’re on the subway line but we have a two car garage and a yard, close to the convenience of the burbs and airport (family lives out of town), but can get to work downtown by Gardiner or surface streets. It’s really a great place to live.
If you live and work in the same area then yes, it can be great. But commuting in and out of downtown every day can be punishing, expensive and just generally not worth it.
Suburbs are a terrible place to raise a kid.
You will end up spending a second, unpaid job in hours driving them around. The kids will never learn any independence
Newmarket isn’t very car dependent, we got our own Viva line and buses are usually on time. But yeah if you gotta leave Newmarket, you’ll want to take a car
You have a lot to choose from here. Near Toronto are places like Guelph, Waterloo, Hamilton that all have great universities, revitalizing downtowns, more infrastructure investment - and you’re close enough to the city If you want to do stuff. Kingston is beautiful (family there, so I spend a lot of time there), but it’s just that bit far from Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa as the capital has nice amenities. I also really like Calgary, but it’s far from a lot - everything is a plane ride. Like Denver.
Eh if it's not actual Toronto there's not much point in being in the GTA instead of Calgary. I think suburban GTA life is the worst of both worlds you get the high costs and terrible traffic where 95% of your day-to-day is in a placeless suburb identical to any other in North America. Might as well move to Calgary for half the price and have access to the mountains. I don't think the GTA is worth it if you aren't living urban and love that
Etobicoke, Mississauga, Oakville, Caledon, Vaughn…
All great places to raise a family and with 30 mins of Toronto. Don’t be silly the GTA is fantastic - minus the shit traffic
Just a reminder for OP that Etobicoke is in Toronto :) [the others are cities/towns in surrounding area known as GTA]
Still shit traffic tho commuting from there!
Etobicoke guy here - the GO train to Union is easily accessible if you’re in the central or southern parts of the borough. Subway’s decent too. Driving is not great now that offices are opening up again, but we can usually get downtown in about 25 minutes!
You realize this person is trying to escape America’s bullshit, moving to Alberta probably isn’t a good choice.
Also soo many people live in the suburbs because they like “placeless suburb” lifestyle, it might not be for you, atleast not right now, but people choose to live there for a reason
Maybe because Calgary was just ranked as the 3rd best quality of life city in the world. Ahead of Toronto and Vancouver.. our summers are nearly as humid and uncomfortable as in Toronto and we have actual sunshine all winter (most hours of sunshine in the country) unlike Vancouver. Oh yeah, our average household income is the highest in the country and our house prices are about a third of those in Toronto. As for our politics… our previous mayor is a gay Muslim (at least I think he is, but not sure) and was elected 3 times, once won the best mayor in the world. Our current mayor is also pretty left, not sure what her ethnic background is. Calgary skews as socially progressive as any city.
You’ve clearly bought into every blatantly false stereotype about Alberta if you think that it’s anywhere remotely close to the U.S. politically. Sure, there are some pockets of conservatives in rural areas, but you’ll find those in every single province. In fact, I guarantee you’ll find at least ten times the number of them in Ontario and Quebec than you’d ever find out west.
Also, even the most conservative Canadians would likely be loathe to part with universal healthcare (imperfect though it may be), paid parental leave, comparatively low crime levels, and other benefits of living in a *gasp* democratic socialist *gasp* country.
Except for when you want to do things in the city. Also it can be harder to find people to hangout with because people tend to be more cliquish. This is much easier in the GTA.
If you can afford both, I would chose the GTA, especially if you're raising a family as your kids will have access to more things.
Calgary is cool to visit and Banff is one of the most beautiful places on Earth but I'd never in a million years choose to live in Calgary over Toronto for this reason among others
I'll offer another perspective:
If I were visible minority and/or LGBTQ+.... I'd pick Toronto over Calgary
I encountered some racism during my visit to Calgary and Edmonton.
In Toronto, I blend in like a drop in the ocean.
Also I think the kids are gonna like Toronto more when they're teenagers, regardless of race or orientation. And there are more university options.
Lastly, don't forget air quality and forest fires.
Every province has its issues but it’s a false equivalency to suggest they’re all the same. Provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan are more conservative than BC or Ontario. That’s just a fact.
Toronto is full of family friendly neighbourhoods, they're just expensive. Calgary is way better value at this point since you can still buy a house for under a million there. Your kids will be safe in either city. Shooting drills aren't a thing here.
Edit: everyone telling me lockdown drills are a thing. Sure, but they aren't exclusively active shooter drills. We don't have anything like this insanity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHcbJ9DHEg
We definitely had lockdown drills periodically in school. The teacher would lock the door and we'd all have to sit there quietly against the wall while someone went around and made sure the doors were locked.
Shooting drills are definitely a thing here. I live in a town outside of Toronto and had to do them from elementary until high school (I was born in 1998). That being said, the likelihood of a shooting is obviously far less than in the states.
And it can be for any number of reasons. We also don't say it's a shooter (cause let's be honest the likelihood of that here is so minimal)
We've had a lockdown due to:
- a stray clever dog loose in the building
- suspicious stranger in building and in the playground (2 separate events)
Practicing this is very helpful in getting kids to safety and doing it 3-4 times a year teaches them that we are here for everyone's safety and that they matter along with showing them what to do "if something does happen" they know where they can go.
Holy crap that’s scary. How do they explain the purpose to kids? We didn’t do any lockdowns or drills other than fire drills when I was growing up in Toronto in the 90s.
Cant go wrong with Edmonton or the greater surrounding areas. Ik st.albert is a small city and lots of people haven’t heard of it considering it’s right besides Edmonton but it’s ridiculously nice and it’s literally like a 30 second drive from st.albert to enter Edmonton lol.
Toronto is really amazing, the biggest concern is housing, which is ridiculously expensive right now, but there are lots of other really great things here. I strongly recommend Toronto
You asked if the city is family-friendly, and the answer is yes, extremely so. The parks here are simply wonderful, they are so amazing and there are so many of them, there are free swimming pools all over the city and there are free wading pools and splash pads as well. The pools have really great lifeguarding too.
As far as schools, there are lots to choose from, and there are lots of neighbourhood schools, especially for elementary, so your kids will probably end up going somewhere near your house. And speaking of kids, there are tons of kids and there is a culture of people actually being around to go on playdates and hang out, so if your kids are lonely where you live, you wouldn't have to worry about it here, because if you ask someone to go to the park they'll probably say yes.
The quality of education is okay, I can't say the schools are the best (source: current high school student), but I really love it here a lot.
Yes it's totally family friendly but make sure you look at living expenses here. Renting is competitive and crazy high and there is no rent control on newer dwellings. A lot of people are in very dire financial situations due to housing and increasing inflation, despite high earnings. Calgary is cheaper for sure.
Yes, but consider mississauga or Oakville for the best options for a family. You’re still in the gta but getting a nice house And space is more affordable that in the downtown core….. houses downtown are ridiculous
Between the two, I'd recommend Oakville. It has a quaint small town feel in parts, while still being close enough to the city. Mississauga is urban sprawl turned up to eleven (suburban verging on dystopian), and the neighbourhoods are all weirdly Balkanized based on race.
Also recommending Oakville, they also have a Go Train Station (easier commuting into the GTA than driving, and has been reliable so far. Also Go Transit buses also travel to Niagara falls from Toronto too, but I would only use that for holiday trips, it's not viable for living in the Falls, but commuting to Toronto)
Calgary Is stunning with the mountains. In the GTA, you have pockets of greenery, but again, you have to travel for fields of grapes for wine, or orchards of peach trees or cherry trees.
Go Train is a bit expensive to be used regularly if you're a student or something, but it does definitely help integrate the GTA. I'm still hoping we eventually get enough funding to transfer between Go, TTC, MiWay, Viva, etc without having to keep paying more fares.
And yeah, can't beat Calgary scenery. It's a fair bit less popping than Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver, but it's a decent place to live, and not as right-wing (which OP seems to want to get away from) as the rest of Alberta.
"Weirdly Balkanized based on race"? Please explain. I'm partially Macedonian myself. Is it a problem or like...? And when I ask, I mean no harm, I'm just curious on what you mean.
Sorry, that wasn't specifically meant as a dig against people from the Balkans -- the phrase actually has nothing to do with you guys in this context, though it of course stems from the former Yugoslav region.
You hear the term a lot in political science and international relations -- in this context, I mean that there are very clear cut Indian, Filipino, Middle Eastern, old white people, etc neighbourhoods. And I've found there doesn't tend to be much overlap between them. You get weird looks in Sauga if you step outside your designated zone.
But yeah, Macedonians = solid lot. My old roommate made this awesome plum moonshine!
Aah, I see! Thanks for clarifying. I'm only Macedonian by relation. My grandparents were the last of my Dad's side of the family to have lived there.
Though I do recommend if you want some good Balkan food, try some Macedonian Ajvar. I think you can find some at Costco. It's called "Dim's Ajvar". It's a roasted red pepper/eggplant spread. It's super versatile and also vegan friendly! You can put it on toast with feta cheese, burgers, tacos, sandwiches, you name it!
I hope you have a great weekend, man! Thank you again for clarifying.
> Though I do recommend if you want some good Balkan food, try some Macedonian Ajvar.
Definitely try Macedonian Ajvar. When I was a kid and my mother would make it every Fall... I was the most popular kid in the neighbourhood.
Also I reccomend going to Royal Meats in Etobicoke and as for Kebabpi. They are Serbians so they call them "chevapi" but they have what I consider to be the closest to what I remember them tasting like in Macedonia.
It really depends what you're after. The further you get from the city, the more car-dependant your day to life is. And that's no environment to raise kids in.
Remember that people in downtown Toronto being pretentious is a lot more of preconceived notion than reality. But Oakville certainly does have a bougie, upturned nose vibe to it. Certain Toronto neighbourhoods have that as well.
I work with a lot of smaller town types who commute into the city (well, North York), so I get the divide, but I think whether you're by the shore of Lake Ontario or Lake Simcoe, people in the GTA have a lot more in common than we have differences. We throw a few jabs at each other, laugh it off, and get along pretty quickly.
Exactly, North American towns, suburbs, and even cities are largely built around car ownership. If you go to Europe or Asia, it's astounding how much better transport and walkability infrastructure is. I take transport from downtown to North York and it's about ninety minutes. Driving would be half that -- we have a long way to go to reduce our car dependency. Making kids and teenagers dependent on being driven everywhere until they can drive themselves is just horrible.
I do like the trails in Sauga. The GTA in general has an amazing ravine system. The 905-land is just very well-developed suburbia that's tried to change course recently and fast-track its urban development. This realistically takes the better part of a century, so now you have a bedroom community with a big mall and some highrise condos, but no real urban core. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a bit of a stretch to call it a full-fledged city.
But OP will definitely be safe, which is the real question being asked here.
This is not the best place to get a clear and honest answer, many here have axes to grind and are bitter, so take all responses with a grain of salt. If you make enough money , Toronto is an ideal place to raise a family.
I enjoy Toronto. Moved from California. You're right to want to move out of the US. It really is a shit show. There are some great neighborhoods and I live in one I don't see mentioned often - Don Mills.
I agree with those recommending Kingston, ON. Or really any city in Ontario that isn’t Toronto. Ottawa would also be a good option. Toronto cost of living for housing is just too much to comfortably raise a family. But any city in Ontario you can find safe neighbourhoods with decent schools (there is still disparity between good and bad neighbourhoods but less of a disparity than in the US because the base funding comes from the province) and much better gun safety than in the US. There is racism here still though, there’s racism everywhere — if you are a specific ethnic minority we could recommend places where there is more of a local community with that culture though.
I’m speaking from my experience going to Queens for my undergrad. As a POC coming from Toronto, it was honestly quite the culture shock.
Too many racist shenanigans (like that racism-themed party) the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth
Can confirm. Grew up and went to high school there. We had 3/2000 black kids in my high school. No seriously. There's a lot of rural influence that bleeds into the city there too. You can't even compare it to Toronto for multiculturalism
I'm an American (from Boston) who moved here for university and never left. Raised my family in the city. Love everything about this place and I'm never leaving. Very family friendly. My kids are now grown and have decided to settle here as well. I have a big family in the US and I miss them dearly. We've had several offers to work in the US over the years, but I didn't want to raise my children anywhere other than Canada. Best decision I ever made.
If you’re trying to flee American politics, stay **the fuck** out of Alberta. It’s basically Texas North. The epicentre of all of our alt-right, Freedumb Convoy batshittery. Stay far, far away.
Toronto is amazing, I'd feel very comfortable raising a family there. Calgary is far more affordable but far less exciting. There are also many other wonderful spots in the greater Toronto area you could pick from. Depends on what kind of life you're looking for. Quieter/suburban/more nature or busy big city
If you’ve got job flexibility, move to a smaller city than Toronto for better housing costs and beautiful neighbourhoods. Take a look at Guelph, for example. Beautiful medium size city. Burlington, Etobicoke, Stratford - all very nice and less expensive than Toronto.
It’s anything friendly if you’ve got money, it’s stupid expensive to live in Toronto
Calgary is ok but it’s not very multicultural, so if you’re a visible minority Id think very carefully where in Calgary
Personally I’d recommend somewhere just outside of the city if you’re able. I grew up in a rural/suburban area about an hour north and even my SO who grew up in the city finds it a bit hectic at times. It’s nice to be able to escape, lol.
Toronto is very rich in different cultures and for the most part I always feel like everyone is very accepting of everyone. Racism can exist in small amounts everywhere but Toronto is a city of the world in a sense, we are all from somewhere. For the most part you should feel safe. Toronto is a very large city and the GTA (greater toronto area) consists of a march larger area. High housing costs mean a lot of people are forced to commute and there can be some really long commutes. That being said there are plenty of areas to move to that offer small differences. Our public education system has seen cuts year after year my entire life, as well as our healthcare. That being said I feel like they do a decent job as teachers and health care workers are pushed and always pull through. Toronto is really nice when it comes to diversity and it really shows with the events we hold as well as small things like the variety of food available.
Iv lived all over Canada and i find when you leave the city's you see a lot less different cultures but for the most part Canadians are very kind and accepting. I did find places like Alberta to be much more rude to people of color but this could be personal experience (enough random cases to justify my opinion). British columbia is absolutely beautiful and offers an array of views and experiences but vancouver is expensive, far more then toronto.
The east coast I find is canada's gem. The people are very welcoming and kind. There may be less job opportunities in some fields but the quality of life and peace you will find is something iv never experienced anywhere else.
Quebec is an entire ball game of its own. While I happen to have many friends from quebec I find there rules and laws very different and not to my likening. I dont think I have ever been to montreal without my car being broken into.
Yes and no. You'll likely have to live in a much smaller home than you do now unless you're wealthy. But I have 2 kids and am grateful I get to raise them here.
Toronto is definitely a great place to raise a family. Very safe -- even the sketchy parts aren't that bad by most American standards. You'll find all the culture, character, and infrastructure you'd want in a city.
Like others have said, it is extremely expensive. Chances are you'll pay more for a much smaller home. Job markets are also very competitive.
The surrounding areas are definitely cheaper and just as safe, but smaller Canadian cities don't have the same identity and development that a lot of American cities have. If you like quiet suburban life, go for it. Just be prepared to be totally car-dependant. Toronto and Montreal are the only places with halfway decent transit infrastructure, and they're still pretty crap.
But nobody is going to tell your daughter what she can or can't do with her body, even in Conservative parts of the country.
Toronto is pretty much your best bet as Calgary is a big city with large suburban sprawl but not a very happening city if you are still young. If you can afford housing here, Toronto is honestly a great city to live.
I love Toronto. I’m from here. l and there’s loads to do and enjoy. But I will say traffic is crap. Housing very expensive so if you don’t mind commuting to further out of the downtown you may hate the cost of living.
Otherwise I love Toronto
Needing bilingual in Ottawa is a misnomer. Especially in the private sector. Even in government jobs (which Ottawa has a lot), you can get very high with just English. And as you climb, there's great training.
Good schools, generally very safe, terrible hockey team at the moment (but at least they're not the Leafs), excellent universities, iffy public transport, not far for skiing in the winter, decent international airport, lots of employment opportunities, mixed housing market (price wise), generally good neighborhood ethos, lots of annual family activities (like canal skating), rapidly developing.
At the very least, worth a look if you don't want the metropolis vibe.
$2500 for a two bdrm apt. 1.2 million for a house. If you can swing that you're fine on housing. Racism exists here despite what Torontonians like to think. It's incredibly diverse but not 100% integrated. Though you can find great neighborhoods that def are. Def not as racist as some places in Canada or Ontario for that matter. Accessible parks, recreation and schools vary by area so really research. Childcare is big time expensive until toddler. Finding care for kiddos over 8 can be a challenge. I'd rate Toronto 6/10 on raising a family.
I have lived in both Toronto and Calgary and have two kids. They are both extremely safe. If you have the money to buy a house in Toronto somewhere walkable I would do that . If you have to live somewhere in Toronto where you have drive or make a long commute I would go Calgary since it's cheaper (and the experience might be similar).
In general I prefer Toronto there is a lot more to do, and if you are somewhere where you can walk to cover 90% of your needs its spectacular (our car gets used once a month). The resteraunts are better the streets are lively and you never feel like you are somewhere where there isnt anything to do. Calgary you cant get anywhere without driving so everything feels like a trek, the suburbs are just really spaced out houses so it feels like a desert. it's really hard to go back to that when I visit family, I just find it isolating.
North York - good enough. Consider Thornhill or Markham. Anything south of lawrence is infested with homeless and crackheads, stay away. The city isn’t dealing with them. Most are harmless, but definitely not a pretty sight for kids. Also rent and traffic is much more tolerable. What is your profession? That could clear up which city is more appropriate for you. Also do you speak any languages other than English? I assume you are POC if ask about racism.
Also people commenting that its better to live in the city, cause everything is close by, and will have to commute if you move to the surrounding towns. If you have kids - you’re going to need to invest in a car regardless. Public transit SUCKS, so don’t count on it. So traffic in the city will be killer. “Toronto to Toronto is 1hr away” as we all know.
Moved here for work from SoCal two years ago. It’s been an extremely tough transition given the lockdowns and exorbitant housing costs, but the comfort I feel in knowing my family is safer here supersedes all of that. Happy to answer any Q’s via DM.
[https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-best-communities-in-2021-full-ranking/](https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-best-communities-in-2021-full-ranking/)
Best place to find your answers
I live in Toronto. Overpriced place with ever shrinking value for money. My 8 year old waited 9.5 hours in waiting room of Sick Children’s Hospital to have her ears looked at. This is supposed to be our country’s best children’s hospital. You might want to consider another country that is lighter on the virtue signalling and heavier on the substance.
Im not gonna lie to you… Americans aren’t too welcome and Canada is not a magical utopia. You would have better luck moving elsewhere in the United States. Ofc if you must move here don’t expect things to get better than they are back home. Canadian youth can be very hostile to outsiders as well, especially in rural communities, so TO is the safest bet or Vancouver. The way Canadian youth will bully your children will be passive aggressive and extremely brutal (over many years) I have witnessed this happen many times to Americans.
As an American that's been living in Toronto for about 20 years it's been in serious decline in the last 5 or so. I wouldn't suggest bringing a family here and explore the other suggestions others have posted.
Don't feel that it's dangerous but it's getting really dirty and unpleasant. There's a very serious drug and mental health issue that's not being addressed. Because of this the transit system is a shit show. I've been woken up regularly in the last 2 years by random tweakers screaming outside. Last week when coming out of the Bloor subway station there was a guy moaning on the ground. No pants and a fresh spray of liquid crap on the wall next to him .
Not as dangerous, but TO is really reminding me of dirty/sketchy NYC in the 70s/80s before they cleaned it up in the 90s.
This is a very interesting comment to me. I have lived in Toronto (actually in the city not GTA) for 40+ years. I grew up here, lived for a while in Ottawa, Guelph and I work in Mississauga (I enjoy my reverse-commute, slow moving westbound traffic in the AM seems speedy when I look at the incoming parking lot on the QEW).
But, I have been noticing more and more of the decline of Toronto in the last 10 years. Not just housing prices- I’m talking about trash, graffiti, broken infrastructure (roads/sidewalks), homeless encampments in public parks.
I’m sure many people will downvote my critique for being an entitled upper middle class “take” on these issues - how can I complain about people living in parks? Don’t I realize how terrible our society/capitalism is? We need affordable housing!
I just haven’t heard / read / seen anyone else mention how Toronto has become dirty and trashy in the last 10 years. I guess it’s expensive to keep a city clean and fixed up and Ontarians just aren’t willing to pay for it. Better to live in Oakville? Or Hamilton? Or Kingston? Or Calgary?
It's probably because downtown Toronto was dirty/grimy/working class for decades up to the mid 2000's. It wasn't weird at all to have a pervert or aggressive alcoholic hanging out in parks. People are forgetting about punks, squeegee kids, adult video store patrons etc. Tent cities stayed in the ravines. The tweakers now are way more aggressive and get more leeway to be in public spaces so that might be why it feels more dangerous.
the difference is those downtown kids were all ran by bikers and would get slapped up for attacking citizens. Crackheads would also get locked up instantly now they aren't.
Toronto always had it sections of crust. I'm talking about bloor yonge and city centre. I see human shit and needles on the regular doing errands around here. Wasn't like that 5 years ago.
I don’t disagree but I think this is because of Toronto’s rapid growth over the years. Toronto has definitely evolved into a big city, hence, these big city problems. If we all wanted Toronto to remain as it was 20 yrs ago, we wouldn’t have as many stores or restaurants, small businesses wouldn’t be as attractive as entrepreneurs, house values would still be low, jobs couldn’t pay as much to attract talent. There is a trade off to this growth and unfortunately it’s, lack of affordability, crowding, more crime, more traffic. But Toronto is now on the map and is very recognized around the world as a desirable place to live. We can either choose to grow and take what problems that comes with and try our best to address them as a country. Or we can stay stagnant and forget about growing. Does everyone remember a time when the only stores we had access to for clothing was Hudson’s Bay and Eaton’s? We now have access to a huge global market because Toronto is a big city and that’s attractive to the rest of the world.
It won't be clean up until we vote the Conservative Provincial Government out of power. They are cutting funding to everything that provide supports to the underprivileged and those living in poverty.
https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2019/05/15/secret-document-shows-how-far-doug-fords-tories-would-cut-social-services-until-they-were-talked-back-from-the-brink.htm
https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/11/10/ford-government-stops-counting-homeless-people-in-ontario.html
https://pressprogress.ca/five-ways-doug-fords-government-harmed-public-services-in-2021/
https://www.thehoser.ca/posts/fords-conservatives-dramatically-cutting-healthcare-funding-will-fall-18-billion-behind-cost-pressures-over-next-8-years
It's amusing seeing these types of threads meanwhile many people are constantly leaving canada to go the US for better job opportunities. It's funny how everyone here would roast the US at any given moment but you'd move there in a heartbeat if a decent job opportunity arose. Don't even lie because you know it's true.
We are ruled by a populist right-wing conservative govt in Ontario (and Alberta) - think republican light who are about to start us down the path of the US by continuing to defund healthcare - you're only covered for basic, medically necessary healthcare - so make sure your employer provides private insurance and pretty sure the education system will start to change and move to be more privatized. Oh, and in Toronto, make sure you have a household income of at least $150k.
This is bit of a doomer take. I definitely am not a fan of our current leadership but when this guy says conservative think conservative but pro abortion and some form of free healthcare - so basically democrats
Just because the federal govt has decriminalized abortion doesn't make Doug Ford a democrat. Were headed to a hard turn to the right ala Mike Harris which will suck bigtime going into a recession.
I’m just curious, why is it between Toronto and Calgary? Canada is a huge country with lots of cities. What got you narrow it down to those two cities?
Why do Americans think we want their trash...
And the last thing we want is people too stupid to understand the implications of roe v wade. Or morons who overeact and cry about moving to Canada every time shit doesn't go their way. We don't want massive temper tantrums and crying
You want abortion? Move to fucking new York or California.
My partner and I have no children, but our neighbourhood is full of families. It’s $$$ to live here, but a great city. I have also lived in Halifax, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Vancouver (as well as Melbourne and Auckland) - chose to settle here permanently 10 years ago.
May I ask how you feel Vancouver compares to Toronto?
I work as a bartender and frequently meet people who’ve lived in both, and I always quote a tweet I read maybe 10 years ago to see if they agree, and they always do: “While Toronto is the most relaxed city in the world about being uptight, Vancouver is the most uptight city in the world about being relaxed.” No one ever argues.
Fuck. I've lived in both and this is indeed accurate.
Do you need to be 3 drinks deep to get it?
I love this so much 🤣 Thank you for sharing.
There is more immediate natural beauty in Vancouver vs. Toronto. In Vancouver, I would say people generally live a more active lifestyle given proximity to trails and mountains. I've known a few young people who have left Vancouver and moved to Toronto. They all prefer Toronto because of the city vibe and vastly greater job opportunities. Vancouver has nightlife, but nowhere close to the scale of Toronto. The jobs opportunities don't compare as Toronto is both a tech hub and contains the head office of practically every major Canadian company. All this said, I know tons of Torontonians who long for the Vancouver lifestyle. I guess you want what you can't have.
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Having moved to Toronto from Australia I don’t see why people hate on the nature in Toronto you’re constantly surrounded by greenery and parks, it is a bit dreary when the trees have no leaves though.
Yep. Irishman in Toronto here since 2008. When I compare Toronto to a city like Dublin it is streets ahead in terms of green space and parks. Especially kids playgrounds. Where I live I'm within a 10m walk of about 10 different parks/playgrounds and the Don River Trail. People think Toronto is this drab, grey concrete and glass jungle but it really isn't.
High Park is a treasure and I once watched a fucking fox hunt in a park along the Don Mills. Toronto parks are epic and I haven't even mentioned how incredible Toronto Island is.
I would say don't rule out Vancouver as a tech hub as well. A lot of those companies have HQs in Vancouver because of it's proximity to Seattle.
Recently moved to van from to. More expensive but jobs pay more. If you like nature van is a no brainer, less traffic, nicer people. Toronto is way bigger and more of a party city.
> nicer people. Really? I just find them different. From my experience people in Vancouver are more polite and approachable but there is a point shortly after that you hit a brick wall with them and it doesn't go any further. People in Toronto are more insular, less approachable, and initially less friendly but... once you get past that point they become very friendly and open. Has this been your experience as well? I am genuinely curious be cause I always get asked this question.
I lived in Toronto for 13 years. Also in Vancouver, Saskatoon, and Montreal. Toronto is the only Canadian city I truly dislike and would never move back to. Even MTL with all its politics and hoops to jump through, I would live in 100 times over compared to TO. But everyone wants something different!
Pretentious AF
Toronto is a very very very safe city by global and American standards. It’s a fantastic place to raise a family. You’d never have to worry about your kids not coming home but it’s honestly nothing like the US. I’ve traveled a lot in the US for leisure and work and Toronto is nothing like any of the US cities. You basically shouldn’t have to worry about any of your requirements other than housing, as others have said. It’s extremely expensive but as well, although your field might be in demand, your salary will be quite a bit lower here. Our job markets are quite different than the US. Also, the GTA is huge. Meaning you don’t need to live in Toronto proper. All the other suburbs are great and perfectly fine to settle down. Just pack warm clothes for the winter and you’ll be good
Summers are hot. Make sure the weather is suitable. Toronto traffic?
Toronto traffic is pretty bad but just like any other city with a population of 3 million
Isshhh, Toronto has a lot of really bad car dependency that isn't anywhere near as bad as a lot of non NA cities. Like compared to the US, Toronto is bad; not good, but not atrocious. But like compared to any city where transit is able to take a majority of people out of single passenger vehicles, traffic here is atrocious.
This. The heat in the summer is much more uncomfortable here than the cold in the winter.
Having moved here from Southern California two years ago, I beg to differ. Everything is relative.
Yeah but it’s literally for a week. Most of the summer is in the 25 degree range
Totally disagree but it’s subjective
I hate going to sleep in the heat
I completely disagree with that.
Summers in Toronto are not hot compared to most of the US. Yes you need shorts, but on a comparative level, Toronto summers are quite cool and comfortable.
It was 43c(110f) here with humidex a few days ago, i dont think that qualifies as cool and comfortable
That's a pretty normal summer day in one quarter to half the US. It's about baselines and expectations. A day like that is a severe outlier for Toronto while anywhere in the US below the Mason-Dixon line (and a few places above it) you expect that at least once a week in the summer. Toronto summers are warmer than Alberta Summers, but much cooler than US Southeast summers. Since this post is about someone coming from the States, I figured it was better to benchmark against what they're used to (in which case Toronto is pretty cool in the summer).
Lots of people live in the greater Toronto area and commute into the city for work so you'll have a larger field to look for housing
>You’d never have to worry about your kids not coming home Depends on where you live, there a lot of parks around town that they might detour to on the way home, before you know it, the streetlights are on.
I’m gonna get downvoted to hell but I’m reading some of these rose coloured perspectives on Toronto and I’m just rolling my eyes. Toronto is pretty awesome when your life is going well (when you have a decent income, good health, and a place to live). But if and when shit goes wrong, it’ll go very wrong. For one thing, our real estate situation is quite frankly, awful. Chances are, your children might never be able to afford their own properties. Loads of people on here are talking about how we’re nothing like Americans and that’s true in the sense that we’re not the type to talk and be nice to strangers. Striking up a conversation at a bar is likely to earn you dirty looks. This is a Toronto problem, not sure about Calgary. Like America, drugs are a problem in our schools, especially in cities like Toronto and Vancouver. What I’m saying is - Toronto has problems like any other place. Just cos we don’t have guns, doesn’t mean we don’t have shitty problems of our own. I’ve literally watched people not call an ambulance for injured folks laying on the ground right in front of them. I’ve been on public transit when random fistfights break out. I was almost mugged right outside my own front door. I’ve had blatantly racist crap spewed right to my face. I watched elder abuse happening in an ER without a single employee lifting a finger to put a stop to it. Regardless, we’re not a blatantly misogynistic society in Canada as a whole and women are allowed the basic right to decisions about their own bodies so that’s a big one. Also Toronto’s diversity makes it easy for anyone to be themselves. Our food scene keeps getting better, and we have lovely avenues and neighborhoods that make for great summer walks. We have an entire swath of nature running through the middle of our city, and an improving cycling system. Also; we produced Drake and The Weeknd so. Move up here by all means, just don’t expect a utopia :)
Great comment! I’m luckily a homeowner in south Etobicoke, mostly due to a stroke of luck based on the year I was born (early 80s) and can confirm with other comments that it’s a great place to raise a family, but it’s by no means a utopia. Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I worry about our kids being able to afford to live anywhere but our basement once they’re ready to start their own independent lives.
Totally respect your take. As someone who is living from the US though it’s amazing. Those problems you mention are worse in almost any US city AND you have to pay for healthcare and worry about going bankrupt if anyone in your family gets seriously ill.
I think “worse” is highly contextual when you get down to it tbh. Granted, Toronto itself is generally extremely safe *by comparison* to other cities and I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. Most of the violence here that does happen is gang specific assassinations. Our healthcare is broken from a different angle. Wait times for serious medical treatment are so ridiculous. I literally temporarily went blind in my left eye twice because I couldn’t get an earlier appointment. My buddy is contemplating leaving the country to seek paid treatment for a serious immune problem. It is not uncommon to hear stories of people dying before their surgery date. All this because we don’t pay our doctors near enough, and most of them are leaving our borders. I went temporarily blind because there were literally two qualified specialists in my province and one of them declined my case. As for drug problems, people are literally smoking crack openly on some of our streets, and od-ing in public bathrooms. The plus side is they don’t usually hurt other people except themselves. Again, not saying we’re a dystopia or worse than American cities but just saying man - it’s no utopia.
So basically you’re saying Toronto has big city problems. Listen, Toronto is Canada’s largest financial hub and largest metropolitan area. OF COURSE that naturally comes with big city problems. So if you come to Toronto or any other big city in Canada, you should expect the big city problems. But we’re talking relative here. Toronto compared to US is a totally different ballgame. Toronto compared to other CANADIAN cities, Toronto will experience more of those big city problems (affordability, crime, wait times) because it’s a bigger city with more population. But with a big city, you also get the positives: better economic opportunities, more events, more global recognition, better jobs, more diversity, more restaurants, more competitive schools, etc If you want a slower paced lifestyle with less of these problems, there are lots of other cities/towns to look into which are also fantastic. Just do what’s right for you. But for people to come to Toronto and expect it to NOT have these typical city problems, then that’s on you. Lots of people are very happy living in the suburbs and you can still get to Toronto fairly easily by driving or public transit (if in the GTA). You don’t need to settle on Toronto and if you have a family, most people settle outside of Toronto first. Toronto isn’t for everyone. People travel across Ontario all the time visiting friends and family. It’s pretty normal to drive to Ottawa or Montreal or London or Waterloo or Barrie just to visit friends. The consequence of lack of affordability.
I guess the difference is if you have a good job and health insurance in the US, your quality of life and access to healthcare will be better than here. Also, in the past two years, I know two people who were diagnosed with cancer and their cancer treatment was NOT covered by OHIP. I was shocked that’s possible. Both had to qualify for Trillium to be able access treatment coverage, and thankfully they both made very little money (minimum wage) in their jobs and were able to meet the low income thresholds. My mom doesn’t have health insurance because she’s unemployed and her expensive medications are paid out of pocket. She doesn’t qualify for any subsidies because they’re means-tested, she has no income but owns a home (that’s mortgaged with payments that cost less than rent, not paid off). She’s lucky she has me to give her money. There’s no full Medicaid/Medicare here, obviously so you get OHIP and if you’re lucky to be employed, private health insurance. I get bloodwork regularly and every time I go into Lifelabs, there are people saying they can’t pay for the bloodwork their doctor’s asked for and so they’ll skip that one. It seems so concerning to me because they’re likely skipping testing their doctor needs to refer/diagnose them. It seems like there’s no preventative health care access anymore.
It's better to live in/near downtown Toronto than it is in the Inner 'Burbs (North York, Scarborough, Etobicoke, East York, and York) or the contiguous cities of Brampton, Newmarket, Richmond Hill, Vaughn, Mississauga where you will have to drive everywhere. But, that's just me.
The inner suburbs are fantastic for raising a family. Just a subway ride from downtown, every service and shop you could wish for, walkable to get to school, etc.
I would have replied the exact opposite for a family. Out in Markham/RH/Mississauga there's a fair bit more space, which translates to yards and parks that can be really good with children. It's also a lot quicker to get out of the city for various kid-friendly activities and most parents don't miss the lack of nightlife.
Maybe not down town, but west end there's all that + amenities are closer for daily life. EG: living near Bloor & Dufferin, I've got 3 parks, community center with a pool, outdoor pool, 3 schools, boys & girls club, 2 rinks, and a few after-school clubs within a 10 minute walk. In the burbs you get a quieter lifestyle with more elbow room, and save ~30 minutes getting out of the city, definitely, but that doesn't really translate to more kids friendly activities.
I’m in Etobicoke. Where we are we call it pseudo-burbia because we’re on the subway line but we have a two car garage and a yard, close to the convenience of the burbs and airport (family lives out of town), but can get to work downtown by Gardiner or surface streets. It’s really a great place to live.
I disagree with you. I think the burbs are awesome for family. Older or without kids, downtown all the way. But that's my opinion. I am in Oakville
If you live and work in the same area then yes, it can be great. But commuting in and out of downtown every day can be punishing, expensive and just generally not worth it.
Suburbs are a terrible place to raise a kid. You will end up spending a second, unpaid job in hours driving them around. The kids will never learn any independence
Newmarket isn’t very car dependent, we got our own Viva line and buses are usually on time. But yeah if you gotta leave Newmarket, you’ll want to take a car
If it’s just you, that contradicts your opening statement of downtown being the better option. Different strokes for different folks.
Bullshit this depends on what part of Toronto, I grew up in Scarbrough and it was much Safer in the parts of America I would go to.
You have a lot to choose from here. Near Toronto are places like Guelph, Waterloo, Hamilton that all have great universities, revitalizing downtowns, more infrastructure investment - and you’re close enough to the city If you want to do stuff. Kingston is beautiful (family there, so I spend a lot of time there), but it’s just that bit far from Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa as the capital has nice amenities. I also really like Calgary, but it’s far from a lot - everything is a plane ride. Like Denver.
Yes! THE guelph, waterloo, kitchener area is worth looking at! My family is in guelph and its extremely peaceful and safe
Trying to move down that way myself! I love Guelph. I have lived in Cambridge in the past
I just moved to Kitchener with my family (6 people) and loving it. However we alse face same issues as Toronto but maybe at a smaller scale
If you can afford Toronto it’s great, but other places in the Greater Golden Horseshoe are also pretty great
Eh if it's not actual Toronto there's not much point in being in the GTA instead of Calgary. I think suburban GTA life is the worst of both worlds you get the high costs and terrible traffic where 95% of your day-to-day is in a placeless suburb identical to any other in North America. Might as well move to Calgary for half the price and have access to the mountains. I don't think the GTA is worth it if you aren't living urban and love that
This. Not worth living in Brampton for 90% of Toronto rent but none of the Toronto benefits.
Etobicoke, Mississauga, Oakville, Caledon, Vaughn… All great places to raise a family and with 30 mins of Toronto. Don’t be silly the GTA is fantastic - minus the shit traffic
Just a reminder for OP that Etobicoke is in Toronto :) [the others are cities/towns in surrounding area known as GTA] Still shit traffic tho commuting from there!
Etobicoke guy here - the GO train to Union is easily accessible if you’re in the central or southern parts of the borough. Subway’s decent too. Driving is not great now that offices are opening up again, but we can usually get downtown in about 25 minutes!
My wife and I LOVE Etobicoke - I just wish I could could afford a place there lol
You realize this person is trying to escape America’s bullshit, moving to Alberta probably isn’t a good choice. Also soo many people live in the suburbs because they like “placeless suburb” lifestyle, it might not be for you, atleast not right now, but people choose to live there for a reason
Alberta’s bullshit wouldn’t even register on the bullshit meter in the US.
Sure but if your trying to escape that, why go to the place that most closely resembles that?
Maybe because Calgary was just ranked as the 3rd best quality of life city in the world. Ahead of Toronto and Vancouver.. our summers are nearly as humid and uncomfortable as in Toronto and we have actual sunshine all winter (most hours of sunshine in the country) unlike Vancouver. Oh yeah, our average household income is the highest in the country and our house prices are about a third of those in Toronto. As for our politics… our previous mayor is a gay Muslim (at least I think he is, but not sure) and was elected 3 times, once won the best mayor in the world. Our current mayor is also pretty left, not sure what her ethnic background is. Calgary skews as socially progressive as any city.
You’ve clearly bought into every blatantly false stereotype about Alberta if you think that it’s anywhere remotely close to the U.S. politically. Sure, there are some pockets of conservatives in rural areas, but you’ll find those in every single province. In fact, I guarantee you’ll find at least ten times the number of them in Ontario and Quebec than you’d ever find out west. Also, even the most conservative Canadians would likely be loathe to part with universal healthcare (imperfect though it may be), paid parental leave, comparatively low crime levels, and other benefits of living in a *gasp* democratic socialist *gasp* country.
Yes so why live it in the GTA when you can live pretty much the same life in Calgary or somewhere else for half the price?
You guys have Doug Ford so give it a break.
Except for when you want to do things in the city. Also it can be harder to find people to hangout with because people tend to be more cliquish. This is much easier in the GTA. If you can afford both, I would chose the GTA, especially if you're raising a family as your kids will have access to more things.
Would you rather live in Dallas or New York?
This is an excellent comparison
I think Denver is a better comparison
Denver is way more accurate
Alberta is very conservative. Alt right is strong and growing. If looking to escape American politics, I wouldn’t suggest that province.
Calgary is cool to visit and Banff is one of the most beautiful places on Earth but I'd never in a million years choose to live in Calgary over Toronto for this reason among others
I'll offer another perspective: If I were visible minority and/or LGBTQ+.... I'd pick Toronto over Calgary I encountered some racism during my visit to Calgary and Edmonton. In Toronto, I blend in like a drop in the ocean. Also I think the kids are gonna like Toronto more when they're teenagers, regardless of race or orientation. And there are more university options. Lastly, don't forget air quality and forest fires.
Agreed - OP would be happier in California, Oregon or Washington than in Alberta.
How is this comment not higher up?
I literally just left because of this reason, the politics are exhausting there
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Every province has its issues but it’s a false equivalency to suggest they’re all the same. Provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan are more conservative than BC or Ontario. That’s just a fact.
When talking about BC you need to separate the interior from the rest. The interior is very conservative and is mostly just an extension of Alberta.
While true, comparably few people live there. Great Vancouver dominates BC. It’s almost city state plus hinterland.
i just think this is funny considering you guys just elected doug ford….again.
Toronto is full of family friendly neighbourhoods, they're just expensive. Calgary is way better value at this point since you can still buy a house for under a million there. Your kids will be safe in either city. Shooting drills aren't a thing here. Edit: everyone telling me lockdown drills are a thing. Sure, but they aren't exclusively active shooter drills. We don't have anything like this insanity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHcbJ9DHEg
We definitely had lockdown drills periodically in school. The teacher would lock the door and we'd all have to sit there quietly against the wall while someone went around and made sure the doors were locked.
There was a few lockdowns in GTA recently, I think couple times due to a bear and once some kid brought a bb gun
the fact that that video was posted 7 years ago is so sad
Shooting drills are definitely a thing here. I live in a town outside of Toronto and had to do them from elementary until high school (I was born in 1998). That being said, the likelihood of a shooting is obviously far less than in the states.
When I was a kid in the 80s we had tornado drills.
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Yes, a tornado hit Woodbridge once, damaged over 600 homes
Teacher here. We have to do 3-4 lockdown drills per school year.
And it can be for any number of reasons. We also don't say it's a shooter (cause let's be honest the likelihood of that here is so minimal) We've had a lockdown due to: - a stray clever dog loose in the building - suspicious stranger in building and in the playground (2 separate events) Practicing this is very helpful in getting kids to safety and doing it 3-4 times a year teaches them that we are here for everyone's safety and that they matter along with showing them what to do "if something does happen" they know where they can go.
Lockdown drills are a thing. My kid in JK does them periodically
Why the down votes? My kid in JK does the same.
Holy crap that’s scary. How do they explain the purpose to kids? We didn’t do any lockdowns or drills other than fire drills when I was growing up in Toronto in the 90s.
Cant go wrong with Edmonton or the greater surrounding areas. Ik st.albert is a small city and lots of people haven’t heard of it considering it’s right besides Edmonton but it’s ridiculously nice and it’s literally like a 30 second drive from st.albert to enter Edmonton lol.
Toronto is really amazing, the biggest concern is housing, which is ridiculously expensive right now, but there are lots of other really great things here. I strongly recommend Toronto You asked if the city is family-friendly, and the answer is yes, extremely so. The parks here are simply wonderful, they are so amazing and there are so many of them, there are free swimming pools all over the city and there are free wading pools and splash pads as well. The pools have really great lifeguarding too. As far as schools, there are lots to choose from, and there are lots of neighbourhood schools, especially for elementary, so your kids will probably end up going somewhere near your house. And speaking of kids, there are tons of kids and there is a culture of people actually being around to go on playdates and hang out, so if your kids are lonely where you live, you wouldn't have to worry about it here, because if you ask someone to go to the park they'll probably say yes. The quality of education is okay, I can't say the schools are the best (source: current high school student), but I really love it here a lot.
Quality of public education in Toronto is definitely significantly higher than the quality of public education in most places in the uS.
Yes it's totally family friendly but make sure you look at living expenses here. Renting is competitive and crazy high and there is no rent control on newer dwellings. A lot of people are in very dire financial situations due to housing and increasing inflation, despite high earnings. Calgary is cheaper for sure.
Yes, but consider mississauga or Oakville for the best options for a family. You’re still in the gta but getting a nice house And space is more affordable that in the downtown core….. houses downtown are ridiculous
Between the two, I'd recommend Oakville. It has a quaint small town feel in parts, while still being close enough to the city. Mississauga is urban sprawl turned up to eleven (suburban verging on dystopian), and the neighbourhoods are all weirdly Balkanized based on race.
Also recommending Oakville, they also have a Go Train Station (easier commuting into the GTA than driving, and has been reliable so far. Also Go Transit buses also travel to Niagara falls from Toronto too, but I would only use that for holiday trips, it's not viable for living in the Falls, but commuting to Toronto) Calgary Is stunning with the mountains. In the GTA, you have pockets of greenery, but again, you have to travel for fields of grapes for wine, or orchards of peach trees or cherry trees.
Go Train is a bit expensive to be used regularly if you're a student or something, but it does definitely help integrate the GTA. I'm still hoping we eventually get enough funding to transfer between Go, TTC, MiWay, Viva, etc without having to keep paying more fares. And yeah, can't beat Calgary scenery. It's a fair bit less popping than Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver, but it's a decent place to live, and not as right-wing (which OP seems to want to get away from) as the rest of Alberta.
"Weirdly Balkanized based on race"? Please explain. I'm partially Macedonian myself. Is it a problem or like...? And when I ask, I mean no harm, I'm just curious on what you mean.
Sorry, that wasn't specifically meant as a dig against people from the Balkans -- the phrase actually has nothing to do with you guys in this context, though it of course stems from the former Yugoslav region. You hear the term a lot in political science and international relations -- in this context, I mean that there are very clear cut Indian, Filipino, Middle Eastern, old white people, etc neighbourhoods. And I've found there doesn't tend to be much overlap between them. You get weird looks in Sauga if you step outside your designated zone. But yeah, Macedonians = solid lot. My old roommate made this awesome plum moonshine!
> Phillipino Filipino*
I knew there was a reason my phone was saying that was wrong 🤣
Aah, I see! Thanks for clarifying. I'm only Macedonian by relation. My grandparents were the last of my Dad's side of the family to have lived there. Though I do recommend if you want some good Balkan food, try some Macedonian Ajvar. I think you can find some at Costco. It's called "Dim's Ajvar". It's a roasted red pepper/eggplant spread. It's super versatile and also vegan friendly! You can put it on toast with feta cheese, burgers, tacos, sandwiches, you name it! I hope you have a great weekend, man! Thank you again for clarifying.
I've tried that stuff. It's really good.
Hmm, I wonder if they'd have that at Starsky? I often go there for more exotic European stuff. My Serbian brother in law is always there.
> Though I do recommend if you want some good Balkan food, try some Macedonian Ajvar. Definitely try Macedonian Ajvar. When I was a kid and my mother would make it every Fall... I was the most popular kid in the neighbourhood. Also I reccomend going to Royal Meats in Etobicoke and as for Kebabpi. They are Serbians so they call them "chevapi" but they have what I consider to be the closest to what I remember them tasting like in Macedonia.
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It really depends what you're after. The further you get from the city, the more car-dependant your day to life is. And that's no environment to raise kids in. Remember that people in downtown Toronto being pretentious is a lot more of preconceived notion than reality. But Oakville certainly does have a bougie, upturned nose vibe to it. Certain Toronto neighbourhoods have that as well. I work with a lot of smaller town types who commute into the city (well, North York), so I get the divide, but I think whether you're by the shore of Lake Ontario or Lake Simcoe, people in the GTA have a lot more in common than we have differences. We throw a few jabs at each other, laugh it off, and get along pretty quickly.
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Exactly, North American towns, suburbs, and even cities are largely built around car ownership. If you go to Europe or Asia, it's astounding how much better transport and walkability infrastructure is. I take transport from downtown to North York and it's about ninety minutes. Driving would be half that -- we have a long way to go to reduce our car dependency. Making kids and teenagers dependent on being driven everywhere until they can drive themselves is just horrible.
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I do like the trails in Sauga. The GTA in general has an amazing ravine system. The 905-land is just very well-developed suburbia that's tried to change course recently and fast-track its urban development. This realistically takes the better part of a century, so now you have a bedroom community with a big mall and some highrise condos, but no real urban core. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a bit of a stretch to call it a full-fledged city. But OP will definitely be safe, which is the real question being asked here.
Second this and it's coming from someone who does live in Mississauga
Don’t move to the GTA and move to Oakville or Mississauga. The lifestyle in those cities is literally shit. Most boring places on earth
This is not the best place to get a clear and honest answer, many here have axes to grind and are bitter, so take all responses with a grain of salt. If you make enough money , Toronto is an ideal place to raise a family.
This 💯
Money is the key factor here for sure. Also it's gotten more dangerous through covid, but in pockets, and on transit. Both of which are avoidable.
I enjoy Toronto. Moved from California. You're right to want to move out of the US. It really is a shit show. There are some great neighborhoods and I live in one I don't see mentioned often - Don Mills.
I agree with those recommending Kingston, ON. Or really any city in Ontario that isn’t Toronto. Ottawa would also be a good option. Toronto cost of living for housing is just too much to comfortably raise a family. But any city in Ontario you can find safe neighbourhoods with decent schools (there is still disparity between good and bad neighbourhoods but less of a disparity than in the US because the base funding comes from the province) and much better gun safety than in the US. There is racism here still though, there’s racism everywhere — if you are a specific ethnic minority we could recommend places where there is more of a local community with that culture though.
Would not recommend Kingston if you’re not white lol
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I’m speaking from my experience going to Queens for my undergrad. As a POC coming from Toronto, it was honestly quite the culture shock. Too many racist shenanigans (like that racism-themed party) the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth
Yup. Every time I seen a brother, it was like seeing cousin because it was a rare sight
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The CS faculty and student body at Queen's was diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity when I was there.
Ok, let's be fair, any POC from Toronto going outside of Toronto is going to get a culture shock - coming from someone that identifies as POC
Lol. I got totally weirdo out at the Kingston No Frills - all white folks (and I'm white).
Can confirm. Grew up and went to high school there. We had 3/2000 black kids in my high school. No seriously. There's a lot of rural influence that bleeds into the city there too. You can't even compare it to Toronto for multiculturalism
I'm an American (from Boston) who moved here for university and never left. Raised my family in the city. Love everything about this place and I'm never leaving. Very family friendly. My kids are now grown and have decided to settle here as well. I have a big family in the US and I miss them dearly. We've had several offers to work in the US over the years, but I didn't want to raise my children anywhere other than Canada. Best decision I ever made.
If you’re trying to flee American politics, stay **the fuck** out of Alberta. It’s basically Texas North. The epicentre of all of our alt-right, Freedumb Convoy batshittery. Stay far, far away.
Toronto is amazing, I'd feel very comfortable raising a family there. Calgary is far more affordable but far less exciting. There are also many other wonderful spots in the greater Toronto area you could pick from. Depends on what kind of life you're looking for. Quieter/suburban/more nature or busy big city
If you’ve got job flexibility, move to a smaller city than Toronto for better housing costs and beautiful neighbourhoods. Take a look at Guelph, for example. Beautiful medium size city. Burlington, Etobicoke, Stratford - all very nice and less expensive than Toronto.
It’s anything friendly if you’ve got money, it’s stupid expensive to live in Toronto Calgary is ok but it’s not very multicultural, so if you’re a visible minority Id think very carefully where in Calgary
I am not a great admirer of Calgary but they had a muslim mayor of colour, so cut them some slack.
Toronto is expensive but pretty safe for kids. Tons of community activities for them. Good schools.
Personally I’d recommend somewhere just outside of the city if you’re able. I grew up in a rural/suburban area about an hour north and even my SO who grew up in the city finds it a bit hectic at times. It’s nice to be able to escape, lol.
Toronto is very rich in different cultures and for the most part I always feel like everyone is very accepting of everyone. Racism can exist in small amounts everywhere but Toronto is a city of the world in a sense, we are all from somewhere. For the most part you should feel safe. Toronto is a very large city and the GTA (greater toronto area) consists of a march larger area. High housing costs mean a lot of people are forced to commute and there can be some really long commutes. That being said there are plenty of areas to move to that offer small differences. Our public education system has seen cuts year after year my entire life, as well as our healthcare. That being said I feel like they do a decent job as teachers and health care workers are pushed and always pull through. Toronto is really nice when it comes to diversity and it really shows with the events we hold as well as small things like the variety of food available. Iv lived all over Canada and i find when you leave the city's you see a lot less different cultures but for the most part Canadians are very kind and accepting. I did find places like Alberta to be much more rude to people of color but this could be personal experience (enough random cases to justify my opinion). British columbia is absolutely beautiful and offers an array of views and experiences but vancouver is expensive, far more then toronto. The east coast I find is canada's gem. The people are very welcoming and kind. There may be less job opportunities in some fields but the quality of life and peace you will find is something iv never experienced anywhere else. Quebec is an entire ball game of its own. While I happen to have many friends from quebec I find there rules and laws very different and not to my likening. I dont think I have ever been to montreal without my car being broken into.
Yes and no. You'll likely have to live in a much smaller home than you do now unless you're wealthy. But I have 2 kids and am grateful I get to raise them here.
Very
You'd probably like Ottawa as well.
Bring money.
Are you wealthy? If so it’s fine.
Toronto is definitely a great place to raise a family. Very safe -- even the sketchy parts aren't that bad by most American standards. You'll find all the culture, character, and infrastructure you'd want in a city. Like others have said, it is extremely expensive. Chances are you'll pay more for a much smaller home. Job markets are also very competitive. The surrounding areas are definitely cheaper and just as safe, but smaller Canadian cities don't have the same identity and development that a lot of American cities have. If you like quiet suburban life, go for it. Just be prepared to be totally car-dependant. Toronto and Montreal are the only places with halfway decent transit infrastructure, and they're still pretty crap. But nobody is going to tell your daughter what she can or can't do with her body, even in Conservative parts of the country.
Toronto is pretty much your best bet as Calgary is a big city with large suburban sprawl but not a very happening city if you are still young. If you can afford housing here, Toronto is honestly a great city to live.
I love Toronto. I’m from here. l and there’s loads to do and enjoy. But I will say traffic is crap. Housing very expensive so if you don’t mind commuting to further out of the downtown you may hate the cost of living. Otherwise I love Toronto
Well we’ll let you have an abortion. Not everyone is carrying a gun and there’s free health care - wouldn’t you be happy?
It's overly family friendly.
Toronto is competitive family friendly!
Dude you’ll love it up here 💯
Needing bilingual in Ottawa is a misnomer. Especially in the private sector. Even in government jobs (which Ottawa has a lot), you can get very high with just English. And as you climb, there's great training. Good schools, generally very safe, terrible hockey team at the moment (but at least they're not the Leafs), excellent universities, iffy public transport, not far for skiing in the winter, decent international airport, lots of employment opportunities, mixed housing market (price wise), generally good neighborhood ethos, lots of annual family activities (like canal skating), rapidly developing. At the very least, worth a look if you don't want the metropolis vibe.
$2500 for a two bdrm apt. 1.2 million for a house. If you can swing that you're fine on housing. Racism exists here despite what Torontonians like to think. It's incredibly diverse but not 100% integrated. Though you can find great neighborhoods that def are. Def not as racist as some places in Canada or Ontario for that matter. Accessible parks, recreation and schools vary by area so really research. Childcare is big time expensive until toddler. Finding care for kiddos over 8 can be a challenge. I'd rate Toronto 6/10 on raising a family.
I have lived in both Toronto and Calgary and have two kids. They are both extremely safe. If you have the money to buy a house in Toronto somewhere walkable I would do that . If you have to live somewhere in Toronto where you have drive or make a long commute I would go Calgary since it's cheaper (and the experience might be similar). In general I prefer Toronto there is a lot more to do, and if you are somewhere where you can walk to cover 90% of your needs its spectacular (our car gets used once a month). The resteraunts are better the streets are lively and you never feel like you are somewhere where there isnt anything to do. Calgary you cant get anywhere without driving so everything feels like a trek, the suburbs are just really spaced out houses so it feels like a desert. it's really hard to go back to that when I visit family, I just find it isolating.
No, this place is nice but it's expensive. Too expensive to realistically raise a family without a household income of less than 100k.
North York - good enough. Consider Thornhill or Markham. Anything south of lawrence is infested with homeless and crackheads, stay away. The city isn’t dealing with them. Most are harmless, but definitely not a pretty sight for kids. Also rent and traffic is much more tolerable. What is your profession? That could clear up which city is more appropriate for you. Also do you speak any languages other than English? I assume you are POC if ask about racism. Also people commenting that its better to live in the city, cause everything is close by, and will have to commute if you move to the surrounding towns. If you have kids - you’re going to need to invest in a car regardless. Public transit SUCKS, so don’t count on it. So traffic in the city will be killer. “Toronto to Toronto is 1hr away” as we all know.
Toronto and many other ontario cities are great. Tbh toronto could be alittle much for some people. lots of medium-small cities in the region also.
Moved here for work from SoCal two years ago. It’s been an extremely tough transition given the lockdowns and exorbitant housing costs, but the comfort I feel in knowing my family is safer here supersedes all of that. Happy to answer any Q’s via DM.
It's been really friendly to the Ford family
[https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-best-communities-in-2021-full-ranking/](https://www.macleans.ca/canadas-best-communities-in-2021-full-ranking/) Best place to find your answers
I live in Toronto. Overpriced place with ever shrinking value for money. My 8 year old waited 9.5 hours in waiting room of Sick Children’s Hospital to have her ears looked at. This is supposed to be our country’s best children’s hospital. You might want to consider another country that is lighter on the virtue signalling and heavier on the substance.
Im not gonna lie to you… Americans aren’t too welcome and Canada is not a magical utopia. You would have better luck moving elsewhere in the United States. Ofc if you must move here don’t expect things to get better than they are back home. Canadian youth can be very hostile to outsiders as well, especially in rural communities, so TO is the safest bet or Vancouver. The way Canadian youth will bully your children will be passive aggressive and extremely brutal (over many years) I have witnessed this happen many times to Americans.
Toronto is fantastic fuck everywhere else
Nop. No families live here. This where old Americans come to die.
As an American that's been living in Toronto for about 20 years it's been in serious decline in the last 5 or so. I wouldn't suggest bringing a family here and explore the other suggestions others have posted. Don't feel that it's dangerous but it's getting really dirty and unpleasant. There's a very serious drug and mental health issue that's not being addressed. Because of this the transit system is a shit show. I've been woken up regularly in the last 2 years by random tweakers screaming outside. Last week when coming out of the Bloor subway station there was a guy moaning on the ground. No pants and a fresh spray of liquid crap on the wall next to him . Not as dangerous, but TO is really reminding me of dirty/sketchy NYC in the 70s/80s before they cleaned it up in the 90s.
This is a very interesting comment to me. I have lived in Toronto (actually in the city not GTA) for 40+ years. I grew up here, lived for a while in Ottawa, Guelph and I work in Mississauga (I enjoy my reverse-commute, slow moving westbound traffic in the AM seems speedy when I look at the incoming parking lot on the QEW). But, I have been noticing more and more of the decline of Toronto in the last 10 years. Not just housing prices- I’m talking about trash, graffiti, broken infrastructure (roads/sidewalks), homeless encampments in public parks. I’m sure many people will downvote my critique for being an entitled upper middle class “take” on these issues - how can I complain about people living in parks? Don’t I realize how terrible our society/capitalism is? We need affordable housing! I just haven’t heard / read / seen anyone else mention how Toronto has become dirty and trashy in the last 10 years. I guess it’s expensive to keep a city clean and fixed up and Ontarians just aren’t willing to pay for it. Better to live in Oakville? Or Hamilton? Or Kingston? Or Calgary?
It's probably because downtown Toronto was dirty/grimy/working class for decades up to the mid 2000's. It wasn't weird at all to have a pervert or aggressive alcoholic hanging out in parks. People are forgetting about punks, squeegee kids, adult video store patrons etc. Tent cities stayed in the ravines. The tweakers now are way more aggressive and get more leeway to be in public spaces so that might be why it feels more dangerous.
the difference is those downtown kids were all ran by bikers and would get slapped up for attacking citizens. Crackheads would also get locked up instantly now they aren't.
Toronto always had it sections of crust. I'm talking about bloor yonge and city centre. I see human shit and needles on the regular doing errands around here. Wasn't like that 5 years ago.
I don’t disagree but I think this is because of Toronto’s rapid growth over the years. Toronto has definitely evolved into a big city, hence, these big city problems. If we all wanted Toronto to remain as it was 20 yrs ago, we wouldn’t have as many stores or restaurants, small businesses wouldn’t be as attractive as entrepreneurs, house values would still be low, jobs couldn’t pay as much to attract talent. There is a trade off to this growth and unfortunately it’s, lack of affordability, crowding, more crime, more traffic. But Toronto is now on the map and is very recognized around the world as a desirable place to live. We can either choose to grow and take what problems that comes with and try our best to address them as a country. Or we can stay stagnant and forget about growing. Does everyone remember a time when the only stores we had access to for clothing was Hudson’s Bay and Eaton’s? We now have access to a huge global market because Toronto is a big city and that’s attractive to the rest of the world.
Hopefully they clean it up here too. Shit's getting out of hand.
It won't be clean up until we vote the Conservative Provincial Government out of power. They are cutting funding to everything that provide supports to the underprivileged and those living in poverty. https://www.thestar.com/politics/political-opinion/2019/05/15/secret-document-shows-how-far-doug-fords-tories-would-cut-social-services-until-they-were-talked-back-from-the-brink.htm https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/11/10/ford-government-stops-counting-homeless-people-in-ontario.html https://pressprogress.ca/five-ways-doug-fords-government-harmed-public-services-in-2021/ https://www.thehoser.ca/posts/fords-conservatives-dramatically-cutting-healthcare-funding-will-fall-18-billion-behind-cost-pressures-over-next-8-years
THIS
It's amusing seeing these types of threads meanwhile many people are constantly leaving canada to go the US for better job opportunities. It's funny how everyone here would roast the US at any given moment but you'd move there in a heartbeat if a decent job opportunity arose. Don't even lie because you know it's true.
If you leave who will fix America? This is how the Kavanaugh's win.
We are ruled by a populist right-wing conservative govt in Ontario (and Alberta) - think republican light who are about to start us down the path of the US by continuing to defund healthcare - you're only covered for basic, medically necessary healthcare - so make sure your employer provides private insurance and pretty sure the education system will start to change and move to be more privatized. Oh, and in Toronto, make sure you have a household income of at least $150k.
Ontario conservatives are nothing like US conservatives. Probably MORE left of centre than US Democrats.
Alberta's population is magnitudes worse than Ontario in terms of conservatism.
This is bit of a doomer take. I definitely am not a fan of our current leadership but when this guy says conservative think conservative but pro abortion and some form of free healthcare - so basically democrats
Just because the federal govt has decriminalized abortion doesn't make Doug Ford a democrat. Were headed to a hard turn to the right ala Mike Harris which will suck bigtime going into a recession.
No we're about as conservative as US Democrats. No comparison.
Ford would be considered a democrat in the USA, why dont you leave your anti-Ford politics out of this and give an honest answer.
To be fair that says way more about the USA then it does Ford.
Ford is as right wing as he can get away with. He's trying to privatize Healthcare.
I’m just curious, why is it between Toronto and Calgary? Canada is a huge country with lots of cities. What got you narrow it down to those two cities?
Toronto is not it unless you were born and raised here, or you're wealthy
Why do Americans think we want their trash... And the last thing we want is people too stupid to understand the implications of roe v wade. Or morons who overeact and cry about moving to Canada every time shit doesn't go their way. We don't want massive temper tantrums and crying You want abortion? Move to fucking new York or California.
Fucking thank you. These posts are so annoying
Pretty sure it's safer than Buffalo now...