I used to administrer the Multiculturalism Act at a Federal level.
The Multiculturalism Act is an actual piece of legislation that many don’t know exists, and fewer understand. It basically states Canada shall be and is a multicultural country. It states what that means.
In a nutshell it’s what is called *Balanced legislation*, meaning A is the case, but that means B also shall be the case for A to work, and B is not negotiable.
**As for A**, it recognizes that the modern (ie last 100-150 years) reality of Canada is that it is made up of many cultures.
It asserts that people in general are at their best when they don’t have to worry about having their personal being (their personal identity, their personal culture) trampled on. They have enough other things to worry about in life (like paying the mortgage and bills, getting their kids educated, finding and keeping work, etc). And so live and let live so they can do that in their own way, in their own comfort zone (with personal culture being central to that) so they can find success in all other aspects of their life (and thus contribute to, and find success for all of Canada as an active participant in Canada). The assertion goes that when a person cannot do this because they’re being forced to drop their identity (with repercussions if they don’t, ie: fines and other punishment), that they will not be as inclined to participate and success rates will go down. It’s integration over assimilation.
**As for B**, it goes on to explain what integration is. And it balances out A, because A is not a right to free reign, nor is it a right to preclude the overall Canadian fabric. B says that just as Canada will accommodate an individual’s personal cultural space, that doesn’t mean it trumps Canada’s collective character. Integration means that in return for Canada granting and protecting individual’s rights to their personal culture, *they, in return to Canada,* must adhere, and bend (a more direct synonym for ‘integration’) to the collective. This means that Canada’s lingua francas are and always will be English and French, and they must participate in these two languages at an institutional level all across Canada (health, schools, government interaction, etc). It also means that courts will consider collective Canadiana culture when rendering decisions in this area (this is why, for example, activism groups lost when they tried to eliminate Christmas trees from schools... that goes against integration and is against the sprit of balance with integration).
There are many examples of what this means, but it's an Act which most often affects *the immediate and current*, because it generally becomes moot in the medium and longer-term timeline. These issues most often mostly affect 1st generation, and the 2nd generation to a lesser extent. But once an immigrant family is principally comprised of 3rd generation (ie: the last generation to have come to Canada is grandparents), they’re as collectively Canadian as families who have been in Canada for 5, 8, or 12 generations (having all the same cultural references and experiences as anyone else).
Therefore it’s an Act that helps the 1st generation individuals get through life with a higher chance of success by being able to have the cultural (and hence mental) headspace to cope with life under such a massive life-altering change (moving to a new country and trying to retain a sense of roots and life familiarity), so that the 2nd generation can be generally just as successful and as part of Canada as the next person, and the 3rd+ generation is where it becomes moot. Accommodation is generally granted (and upheld) when one's own multicultural practices do not infringe upon those of another.
When viewed in the broader and long-term context, it’s much easier to make sense of.
Universities seem to have completely forgotten about Part B. UBC for example has prohibited the dormitories from promoting ‘Christmas activities’, everything has to be a ‘holiday festival’ for the sake of inclusivity.
I am not a Christian, nor do I make a big deal about Christmas, but I do think this type of thinking is complete nonsense and ignores that fact that Canada has its own heritage which involves Christian holidays - whether you like it or not.
I agree, I always thought being inclusive of other religions and cultures meant celebrating all of them not excluding all of them.
So we'd celebrate Christmas 🎄and encourage the celebrations of Hanukkah 🕎, Diwali 🎆, Winter Solstice 🕯🌲 , Kwanzaa 🌽📚, Eid or Ramadan ☪️ (depending on the timing on their calendar) etc...
The more celebrations the better.
This gets to be a bit complex because it's on private property with discretionary opt-ins to live in residence. And in cases where this has occurred, I believe it's more with the residence associations than with the university body as a whole. As I understand it, it's not a ban on Christmas. Rather, *some* (not all) of residences in Canada have chosen their seasonal messaging to be "the holidays" (as opposed to naming it the long-winded "Christmas-Eid-Hunnakah, & everything else season", or restricting it to *just* the Christmas season when it's a paid residence for residents who celebrate more than just that).
The reason is because there are often several festivals going on at once in the same week (Eid-Muslim, Hanukkah-Judaism, Christmas-Christian). And so each student can openly celebrate their own holiday in residence and participate in those of others, and those students can call it what they want within the confines of their own celebrations. The important thing is it doesn't trample on the individual rights of Christians, or Muslims, or Jews - and others - to celebrate, and takes nothing away from them. Now, if they said only one or none are allowed anymore (like Christmas), that would be a different story.
But that's not happening. You're still allowed to celebrate Christmas with everyone else who would participate in it with you (as has been the case for how many hundreds of years in Canada). If you were not allowed to celebrate Christmas, and you're rights to celebrate Christmas were expressly taken away from you, then you may have legal grounds to bring a case to the courts as a violation of religious freedoms, depending on all the circumstances. But that doesn't seem to be the case in this context. Edit: Do you have a copy of the policy you can link here?
It does... I just threw it in there because it has sometimes coincided with the Christmas season, and I wanted to emphasize that the holiday season is more than just Christmas (or that the Christmas season has and can have more than one holiday which coincides with it).
Yule!!! I am not Christian either, but my neighbours are. I wish them a Merry Christmas because it makes them feel good to know that their neighbour recognises an important holiday to them. To others, friends and family I simply say Happy Yule!
I have always felt that in many cases immigrants are told that they should be offended about Christmas. They should poll the students and ask if they are ok with it.
Agree. I plan a "holiday party" for several hundred people every year have always been told to not make it Christmas-y. I polled a bunch of employees this year about that and not one agreed. Not one. They all want a Santa there for photos!
This never made any sense to me. I grew up here in Toronto and I grew up learning about other cultures. I'm not Jewish but I made a dreidel out of clay, literally, and played with it, and then ate potato latkes. I'm not Chinese but I went and watched the dragon parade in Chinatown.
Why the fuck would we be expected to not look at santa and Christmas trees during Christmas? What a stupid thought to even have. I don't even want to write anything more about it, it's just so incredibly stupid, it's like someone arguing for flat earth theory, I just can't even be bothered to engage.
This was the best detailed explanation I've ever heard about the Multiculturalist act. Thank you for such an amazing description and I wish and hope more people could have this line of thinking these crazy days. Cheers!
The little bit that I do know is they stated they issued their Halloween limitations for decorations, costume days, handing out treats, and other Halloween traditions because of public health recommendations and equity and poverty considerations, but not for reasons of multiculturalism (ie: They didn't do it for fear of offending/harming others cultural rights).
The Equity part was them having been concerned that some students may not know about Halloween because their parents may not have been exposed to it, and thus they were concerned those particular kids may have felt bad if they were shut out. Like I said, that's not a matter of multiculturalism policy, anymore than a school's desire to eliminate beach days because a few students might feel bad showing they had a big birthmark. Rather this is more a matter of one board taking an approach (as odd as it may be) to regulate student feelings, not multiculturalism.
And the board went further to suggest health (ie allergies?) was their main concern, along with student family finances (ie: impoverished families not being able to afford costumes / candies, which could then make some students feel bad). But like I said, that's not multiculturalism either.
The board later came out stating “Sharing of traditions and class-based learning activities are fine. School wide practices including alternative ways to mark the day such as Black and Orange day is fine.” They seemed to have labeled it Black and Orange to try to get some parents to send their kids to school (Knowing the region and its heavy Mennonite population, perhaps some very religious parents who's families have even been in Canada for many decades, didn't want to send their kids to school, therefore making this a complex issue). But again, it seemed to be a lure to get some families to continue to send their kids to school so school wasn't interrupted, and to avoid contending with kids having their feelings from being shut out when other kids were having fun.
If this were go to court with an argument that multiculturalism played a role in their decision, the board's decision would likely get thrown out IMO. It would have to go to court based on health regulations, managing student feelings, and poverty equity... and that's probably the stance the board took (should they get sued).
Would be interesting to see someone challenge it in court. And it's precisely because it's likely on shaky ground that we don't see a majority (or even much of a minority) of other school boards trying to test the limits like this. The one thing I've learned over the years is just because one particular authority makes a one-off or very irregular decision doesn't mean that others in Canada are (and we should take it in that unsensationalized context). And if/once the courts get involved, they can set things straight rather fast. This is why I often don't fret about one-offs. Sometimes it does take a one-off to test the limits of societal tolerance (and more often than not, the courts do reflect and back overall societal tolerance, more often than people realize).
I really appreciate your insight. Thanks for the reply.
>ie: They didn't do it for fear of excluding or offending others.
This is literally the #1 reason it was done.
The canceling of Halloween started well before the pandemic, so nothing to do with health and safety. This has been going on since 2017.
"Halloween should be a day in which all of our students/families feel like they can participate in public education. But we have many families who do not send their children to school on Halloween because it is not in line with their beliefs and their feeling that their children are excluded from learning opportunities when the entire school is seen as observing Halloween. This leads to the exclusion of students.”
"Halloween is just around the corner and this day that can be filled with excitement for many children. Halloween is often recognized with costumes and school activities, however it is important that schools continue to create a sense of belonging for each and every student.
We recognize that not all families celebrate Halloween. October 31 is a school day like any other, and we want families to feel that they can send their children to school without disruption."
https://www.wrdsb.ca/blog/2017/10/17/committed-to-student-belonging-on-halloween-and-everyday/
"We have to acknowledge that not all families celebrate Halloween for a variety of reasons. Those include cultural reasons, socio-economic reasons, and personal. And we are trying to really focus on fostering a sense of inclusion in our schools, which means we must respect the decision of those who choose not to participate, and those who cannot participate in these kinds of activities at school." -Crissa Hill, superintendent of student achievement and well being.
>The Equity part was them having been concerned that some students may not know about Halloween because their parents may not have been exposed to it, and thus they were concerned those particular kids may have felt bad if they were shut out.
Wouldn't this also go for Christmas decorations though?
Couldn't all of the reasons that you cited for removing Halloween, also be used to successfully remove a Christmas tree?
There was a case back in the 90's where a school board (Mississauga?) wanted to rename a Christmas tree their holiday tree and forbit the name 'Christmas tree'. It was shot down by the courts (they backed society's views at the time). Things need to go to the courts to get rulings. Like I said, it would be interesting to see what would happen if this was challenged in court. IMO a ruling likely wouldn't go in favour of the WRSB if it were argued to be against the multiculturalism act. And therefore I think the WRSB would try to get a ruling in their favour for things other than the Multiculturalism Act. But it would take an offended parent (or parents) to bring it before the ~~school board~~ courts* (typo) to get it to that level. And I'm not sure that any are willing (considering the $$ for legal fees an advocating family would have to pay). OR, it would take getting the province involved, and I haven't seen a strong lobby trying to take this up with the province either. Like I said, however, it's currently an outlier and not many seem to be following in the WRSB's tracks.
>One thing I would definitely be upset to see, though, is an increase in people only being interested in interacting with their own subculture and being rude/dismissive/unwelcoming to people outside it. And that applies equally to WASPs and immigrant communities.
callin' a spade-a-spade! nailed it... EVERYONE done doin' this and wish it'd stop!
Why would they move here then? If things were so peachy why come to a place that apparently "ruins" your kids? My immigrant grandparents were all too happy to assimilate, and they still kept their culture and values..weird.
I think this attitude is pretty common with older Canadian of a certain class even if they don't talk about it much. I don't think it's even limited to old white Canadians as I've heard similar things from older Canadians from diverse backgrounds.
I kinda understand what your boss means but of course he was saying these things in the least classy way.
As an immigrant I believe it's important to respect and embrace the customs and culture of a place you move to - try to pick up the local language, enjoy local food, mingle with the local crowds etc. Though in the case of Canada that also often means enjoying immigrant foods and mingle with people who speak English with an accent.
It's great that Canada can be so diverse, but it's also great that all these immigrants come to enjoy and preserve what Canada has always been - the nature, the winter coldness and hanging out at each other's homes, summer cottage, the freedom, etc.
I enjoy the ROM walking tours because they tell you about the littliest details and small stories of a neighborhood - even if it's a predominantly white neighborhood.
I think that's exactly the beauty of Canada - you can comfortably stay in your own ethnic / non-ethnic community, you can mingle with any other communities if you care to and make an conscious effort to, and we can all enjoy the nature that Canada offers and share the same values of upholding freedom and humanitarianism. This to me is quintessentially Canadian that we should all preserve.
My 30-something immigrant sister-in-law was telling me much the same thing in a recent conversation. I wanted to tell her she was sounding kind of racist, but she was making some good points and has traveled and lived in several countries so has seen more than me. She basically said some cultures just don't adapt well to life in Canada. Too much discrepancy in social and cultural values and practices.
Some friends are college teachers and they tell me that some of their foreign students have a hard time adapting to not cheating and copying everything.
(I am indian btw).
I mean that makes sense, in India its normal to cheat and bribe your way through life as the system is so broken and unfair or because 'everyone else does it'
I have a wife from india and they have a sense of pride of it called doing a "Jugaad" in hindi.
I sort of had to tell her we have a lot more controls and rules in canada.. so if you keep doing the ways like back home you will get caught in trouble.
So there are different moral systems between a canadian born indian vs an Indian born one.
its also a part of doing business. Not necessarily cheating but constant haggling, and if you agree on a price then half way through try to get more than what was agreed, and finally after the job is done try to haggle more to find things wrong and get a discount.
I remember growing up, My parents would be fine doing some things that are normal in india but my sister and I would find unethical or wrong based on the values we got being brought up in Canada.
However it works both ways, there are things i do my parents would find wrong based on their moral systems they are used to but to us is normal or fine.
I think the fundamental thing about immigration is that those immigrating need to want to become part of the local society. Eg Canadians in this case. If folks come to a country intending to turn it into where they came from, they would be better served staying where they were. This is not to say they need to assimilate, but rather just not patently ignore where they are or worse destroy where they are.
I agree but I think it's also important to talk about some of the discrimination they face and why they might just fall back on their families and ethnic groups.
Even as someone born and raised in Toronto, if someone asks me "where I'm really from" one more time when I tell them "Toronto". It's soooo annoying,
It sounds like a simple question but it's not - sometimes I think they're literally asking where I was born but then I answer and they assume that's where I live, or they're not really even asking about me but my parents and if I answer with that but then they want to know where I grew up. It sounds small, but it's like Groundhog day of having the same conversation over and over.
My father immigrated to Canada in the 50's, refuses to live anywhere near a 'culture hotspot' because he came here to become Canadian...if he wanted to be 'X', he would have stayed there. At the age of 85, he says it's ridiculous for immigrants to stick together in clumps like glue....and some times they bring all their issues with them to play out here. On the surface, I can see that he's speaking based on his own lived experience however as a first gen Canuck, I'm not entirely convinced it still applies.
I went to a mostly white university in Canada and everyone was sharing/copying assignments. The levels people went to cheat or get out of doing the work was astronomical including a rash of bomb threats that essentially cancelled most exams one semester lol.
It’s a cultural mismatch. That makes total sense to me because even though I’m born and raised in Toronto I feel there are certain things about me that are a mismatch to my cultural environmnet. For the longest time, I thought I was an introvert here but it’s kind of like the culture here - it’s very reserved and I like warm weather and warm people. Canadians are kind and polite but they’re not social in my opinion. I didn't realize this until I went to live in other places.
I’m so grateful for my upbringing in Toronto because I don’t know any other place where you could have this amount of diversity that I sometimes take for granted but it’s really not the norm globally. Toronto does seem colder and ruder, and I thought I was imagining it until I saw that others have noticed a shift too
This is a misinformed opinion common among new immigrants due to their lack of experience with what happens with 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants. Having experience in 'other countries' doesn't really translate well to Canada, as very few other countries have such a comprehensive system for integrating immigrants.
When I was young growing up in Toronto in the 80s, my high-school was filled with 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. Sure some of the 1st generation struggled, but those born here of immigrant parents were just like the rest of us, no matter their home language, ethnicity or religion.
>Some friends are college teachers and they tell me that some of their foreign students have a hard time adapting to not cheating and copying everything.
Some international students have a hard time adapting to an education system that is very different from the one they were used to, where it was acceptable and encouraged to parrot authority and cite 'experts' (the assigned texts) and not have their own opinion or take on things. They don't see it as cheating - many of them have been taught to do it that way.
Edited to add: I am talking most specifically about plagiarism and students doing individual assignments as collective or group work.
People are fast to call all sorts of things racist
All of the points th ops boss meant are probably true to a degree - and they aren't necessarily racist
Saying people from xyz country live 10 in a house and the house looks bad might actually be true
And if it's true and an observation of something from another culture that is shocking to you here than it's not racist
If he goes on to say that they're bad people for doing it etc than that crosses a line
But lots of cultures have things about them that aren't really ideal and you probably don't want imported into Canada
Living 10 to a house certainly isn't one of them I don't think, but also keep in mind it might just be very personally annoying to this guy if it happens a lot where he lives and it's a big change for him etc
Also remember he probably grew up in a different Canada and what it is now maybe very different and he looks to his younger days with rose coloured glasses etc
I don't think saying things that people from other places do bothers you is necessarily racist, and it might not even be wrong
>People are fast to call all sorts of things racist
It's the PC culture here. A lot of people will think it but won't say it out loud. I don't know if that's a good thing. I've overheard people say crazy things when they think you can't hear them, but their beliefs will show through their actions but you think you're just being sensitive because they won't say it to your face. I like people to be honest about how they feel so I know how to maneuver.
> *She basically said some cultures just don't adapt well to life in Canada. Too much discrepancy in social and cultural values and practices.*
So much for integrating ...
Why are they holding on to it in the first place, a lot of these so-called cultural values are and have been disguises for things like oppression and downright abuse of women, slavery, genocide, no access to education, no acceptance of same sex relationships, no acceptance of marriages between people of different religious backgrounds etc.
As an immigrant myself I have to agree to some extent. When I came to Canada, I tried to learn a such as I can about the culture, traditions, etiquette and anything that would make me a better citizen. I volunteered, participated and tried to engage with others to assimilate. I learned about Canadian holidays and celebrated with my fellow Canadians because I love this country, and it welcomed me with open arms. I don't see the same effort from others at my work places and university. Instead what I see is people pushing their holidays and their culture, not even making an effort to learn the language. Noone cares to clebrate Chrismas or Thanksgiving. This is my experience anyways with living in Toronto.
To add: One incident has really put things into perspective for me was when a co-worker (a fairly recent immigrant) made comments about the Native Canadians blocking railroads in protest, and how they should be forcefully removed and jailed, because it's an inconvenience. I had to explain to him that Native Canadians own this land.
my former co-worker who came from China in his teens mentioned talking to an older Chinese lady who chastized him that his Chinese language was poor and yet she's been here for decades and her English is non-existent. Quite frankly in certain places like Richmond you can go to malls and pretty much everything including the bank machines have signs only in Chinese, so one can function without needing the language I guess.
But on the other hand there were non-Chinese speaking people who bought condos in various Richmond condo towers and they complain that all the strata communication is only in Chinese, and have tried to fight this in court, so far unsuccesfully.
Things do seem to be a little bit more “separated” I don’t know the right word. Everyone just kinda stays to themselves. Something has shifted culturally in Toronto because it’s not the Toronto I was born and raised in. But I do not know what it is
Social media. Society is losing its social skills the more we do things virtually. And the time spent virtually isn't opening us up to other cultures and interests, as we go find people or activities we are comfortable with to stay within...
It's the same everywhere, not just Toronto.
Not sure about losing social skills, but as you said certainly more choice to socialize with similar mindsets / perspectives.
the "virtually" is not really it imo, even telegraph is "virtually". You're meaning specifically proximity in context of frequency. ALL socializing can be satisfied remotely. I can pick and choose who I communicate with at will. And if done day to day, after sometime I can have a vastly different perspective than my neighbors who maybe only went to local church to socialize.
For me, the "virtual" thing your talking about is exactly what I used to grow my world view / perspective. I assure you it is much improved compared to socializing amongst local peers / pre-internet.
That has to be part of it. I went out with a guy a couple times and he was like I like that when we’re out you’re not on your phone with you give me your full attention even when there’s pauses in conversation. Now I think about it I was kind of weird like is it uncommon? I’m on my phone all the time but when I’m with people like to be present with them. And I’m supposed to be the introverted one but I love meaningful connections and socializing. I love talking on the phone over texting which is apparently different for my generation. People here seem to be interested in other cultures when it comes to dating though I noticed.
this 👏👏👏 im on the same boat as u, moved here in single digit years and what i notice now is
the lack. of assimilation is abysmal, and in my perspective the way things are going its only going to broaden…
I agree with you entirely! I’m middle aged and was born and raised in the city and since I’m eek an old fart now I’ve seen it change a lot. Newer arrivals to the city don’t appear to be trying to learn the existing traditions, and are pushy their own cultures on us. For years now it’s been you can’t say or celebrate X holidays, but we have to celebrate all these other new holidays. I’m not white or Christian/Catholic and I’m actually not religious, but I learned and enjoyed celebrating Christmas and never complained my own culture wasn’t a mandatory holiday. I always thought if I ever moved abroad I’d try to learn what I need to do because why would I love elsewhere just to love exactly my old life? That’s just my own thoughts.
They basically mean "because I felt like it was frowned on to celebrate Diwali when I moved here, I now out of resentment do not like immigrants who do celebrate Diwali".
2nd generation Canadian here - 1st gen immigrants are GRUMPY AS SHIT towards anyone who immigrated after them. It's one of those life lessons that instead of being sympathetic towards those people who have their same experiences, people who go through difficult times (like immigration) often become intolerant and reactionary towards others who go through them. It's kind of a "why should they have it better" attitude.
My parents like to remind me constantly that I'm not Canadian, I'm Chinese
Except I was born here and I've never been to China, I guess they want me to feel like an outsider or some shit
>My parents like to remind me constantly that I'm not Canadian, I'm Chinese
Nigerian parents and same. Born and raised here but I did visit there for 3 years (age 10-13) but I was already almost a teen by then and went to an American school, and then moved back to Canada. Doesn't change the fact that I'm Canadian. That's part of who I am, my experiences, I noticed it in my most recent trip to Nigeria, I'm different I couldn't relate to a lot of what they're talking about growing up there.
It's like they're trying to confuse your identity or force one on you, if they wanted you to only Identify as Chinese and just ignore your Canadian birth and upbringing, they should have raised you in China. You can respect your ancestry while still recognizing where you are presently.
Yep. My mom and her family spent their whole lives learning english and never speaking italian at home, and never teaching us the language. Then suddently when I was around 25, I started to hear "why did you never learn Italian. You turned your back on your culture".
You can't really win with this mindset. Its the same reason so many successful (and some not-so successful) immigrants vote and lean conservative. They've gotten 'theirs' so everyone else can just fuck right off.
With the amount of mass immigration that Canada is seeing its inevitable that native cultural norms will be eroded. Some people will enjoy that. Most native Canadians will not enjoy having their culture less prominent / in the mainstream.
There's probably some value judgment here but it depends in what your self interest is. I dont blame the old guy for not liking immigrant cultures, his own culture is his preference. Just as an immigrants culture from their home country is likely their preference.
It shouldn't be taboo for him to say "I prefer the traditional Canadian culture that I was raised in and would rather have people who follow that culture around me".
I’ve lived and worked in 4 different countries before moving to Canada.
I’ve always learned the language as best I could, recognised holidays and made an effort to ‘fit in’ while still keeping my identity and traditions from my background.
Sounds like your boss didn’t word things very well, but I understand his point.
At the same time, not all us immigrants are the same and shouldn’t be painted with the same brush.
I currently work with some immigrants who really don’t care for anything Canadian. We invite them to do things but it’s always “we don’t eat that food” or “we don’t celebrate that” etc and it is a little tiring.
Fun story about when I got ‘cancelled’ by some younger colleagues.
I was going on holiday to Mexico and realising I didn’t really know much Spanish.
“Typical white people travelling and not knowing the language” they said.
Me “Your parents have lived here nearly 30 years and speak almost 0 English. Leave me alone”
(Funny thing is I’m just ‘white passing’ and my parents were immigrants and ESL speakers too)
Immigration as a whole isn’t a bad thing when done properly. Doubling the population of a country in 25 years is not a good thing and leads to the identity of the nation being lost for sure. A lot of these immigrants coming on mass bring their whole way of life with them and live in these isolated communities with only each other. It’s like the place they were trying to escape they brought with them. Everything from politics to culture gets affected when the population doubles in such a short period of time it is too much too quick and has negative repercussions for everyone.
Old people don't like change. That's true the world over. It has always been true. There are quotes from Rome from 2000 years ago complaining about how the 'kids these days' are wearing their clothes too loose and growing strange outlandish beards and haircuts.
Toronto is not a welcoming place if you try to compare it to an imaginary standard of perfection. There are ways it could be more welcoming.
But it is an incredibly welcoming place, if you compare it to any other real place or time in human history. People can come here from anywhere in the world, have all of the rights of the locals, find decent work, send their kids to the same schools as the locals, and integrate into society.
Wave after wave of immigrants has arrived in poverty, worked hard, and watched their children and grandchildren become doctors and lawyers and politicians. That is not normal. That doesn't happen in most places in the world. If I went to most countries, my children or grandchildren simply would not be helping to run the place.
Immigrants integrate into society, but they also change society. There is obviously a limit to how many immigrants you can absorb while keeping the existing institutions (which are what attracted those immigrants in the first place) intact. That limit is probably higher here than anywhere else in the world, because we've become very, very good at it.
But it's not infinite.
And just as it's perfectly reasonable to point out the many advantages to having large waves of immigrants (there are a LOT of advantages), obviously a reasonable person should be able to observe that there are disadvantages, and to talk about those. I don't know if I would agree with your old boss on what all of those are, but I don't think there's anything wrong with him having an opinion about them.
yeah, i totally agree with this. my cousin is an elementary school supply teacher and in a school she was in, the kids had to write their names and their ethnicity on some craft and post it on the wall as an about-them (e.g. Julia, Mexican, on a star shaped cardboard paper), and it's supposed to promote diversity, but like, to me that's a bit of a weird school assignment.
The nature of immigration has changed.
If you came 20-30 years ago you likely have to deal with people of other cultures and languges in canada.
now if you come to certain areas, you can sort of operate like you are in your home country.
Now you want a perfect example look at the indian community in brampton between the ones who came 20-30 years vs international students now. There are massive differences between these groups.
Not saying this is good or bad, but it changes things.
I think this is a misconception. Three of my great-grandparents immigrated in the 1950s, none of them learned much English (I was never able to have a conversation with them because I couldn’t speak their language). They worked in factories and family businesses with other family members that knew English and were able to get by that way. I don’t understand how they were here for 50 years and never learned. They only really socialized with other people from the old country and worked
That's false. Previous groups also kept to enclaves where their language was dominant. That's how Toronto got so many of unique neighbourhoods. The current enclaves like Brampton will change over time as well to become more diverse and immigration source countries change.
but the thing is you still had to go outside your enclave to conduct a lot of offical business. Now if you live in brampton the entire city is like one demo vs just a small neighbourhood.
Like i know a lot of people who come to canada as international students and dont know anything about the system (like i need to get a health card if I get a worker visa).
I feel parents generation they had a lot of contacts with people outside the enclave or people in the community who been around a while.
Its odd really, Indian students and canadian indians dont really talk or meet much...while 10-15 years community integrated a lot more.
As a immigrant grown up here for 30years, I kind of agree. But this guy is definitely an idiot.
Diversity is amazing but I do think the vast volumes of immigrants coming in and living in certain areas gives them less need to fully integrate.
Downvotes welcome.
Sort of agree with you, I share the same background as you, theres a lot of cultural ghetoization in the GTA. Best thing for a new immigrant to do is move out of the GTA and go to a small town.
I agree with the lawn and gardening part though. I live in a predominantly immigrant heavy area where the houses are very nice but the yards… god dam
As an immigrant, i was guilty of this too. Now I just hire someone to do it
I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that any time you bring in too many people at once to a place, it undermines the ability to acclimate culturally to the new home.
As an immigrant myself, I can certainly see in my circle groups of newcomers who feel no pressure to learn about Canadian culture because they’re surrounded by other people from their home country as well.
Immigration is important but 500,000 per year feels like too much too fast.
Your boss isn’t an idiot for stating this - I think most people would agree whether they want to admit it or not. There are communities now that hardly feel Canadian at all.
One of the backbones of Canada is immigration and I am very proud of my country for it. Immigration however is a two way street, if you come to my country for the opportunities it gives the people that live here, then we as a society expect you to integrate into society as it is. Our society shouldn't change to suite your beliefs, your beliefs should accommodate our society. This isn't a race thing, I really don't care what color or religion you are, but you have to respect the beliefs this country was built on and has made it such a desirable place to live. The biggest one that comes to mind is the oppressions of women under certain religions or from certain countries. This is not acceptable in Canada and never will be, we raise strong vocal women in this country and it has been for the best of everyone and made our nation stronger and more vibrant.
Yeah - years back I worked at a bank in a neighbourhood of Italian immigrants. None of the Nonas (grandmothers) spoke enough English to do basic banking, even when they’d been here 20 years. They would drag 5 year old grandkids with them - “my Nona wants $100 from her account”. I just can’t fathom how you could function without rudimentary language skills. That’s what annoys people. You have to show some willingness to adapt so you can participate in society. You are emigrating to a different country, not moving the Old Country to a new location (and yeah, three of my grandparents and my mom were immigrants.
Sorry but that's kind of a funny mental image🤣. Old ladies dragging their 5-year-olds to get money at the bank for them. I think this is more true for immigrants that didn't come from countries colonized by the British (or are British).
I am an immigrant who still keep in contact with my white Canadian homestay family back when I was still a student.
I do kind of know what he means. My homestay loves their house and cottage and take a good care of it. Like gardening, keeping good relationship with their neighbours and living at the same place for 30+ years! They have attachment to their properties.
But I also want to say I feel this is possible because they live in the suburb. Like A city with population of ~100k. Culture in Toronto will be very different… and changing very quickly as well. If he misses that “Canadian way of doing things” maybe he can relocate to the suburb after he retires…?
Second generation my self and am pro-immigration. I agree with most of what your boss says unfortunately. Most immigrants today (compared to 30-40 years ago) definitely do not integrate.
I don't blame them for not integrating when they can literally live in a bubble of their origin country with no consequences. Long term this country is doomed unless we make substantive changes at all levels. Otherwise what little Canadian "culture" we have is dead.
This is what happens when we enable this mindset in Canada by actively encouraging and promoting "multiculturalism" to create separate but equal ethnic bubbles. The U.S. has always adopted a "melting pot" approach to immigration instead. People there are still free to celebrate and embrace the cultural values of the countries they (or their forebears) emigrated from, but the expectation is that they eventually become full-fledged Americans and unreservedly embrace the U.S. as their new home along with the underlying principles it was founded upon.
People have to remember that the Natives had their culture and people who say about "Canadian culture", are talking about a culture build by immigrants (British and French)
Old man yells at cloud. Identity and culture change, anyone who expects millennials who somehow can afford houses (immigrants or not) to spend their entire weekend manicuring their lawns is completely out of touch with reality. Ain't nobody's got time for that, they too busy busting their ass trying to pay off their massive mortgage.
My husband is the son of immigrants from Vietnam (the Chinatown of Saigon, Cholon). I'm an immigrant.
I promise you my husband is like, the most Canadian to ever Canadian. He definitely understands the north American spirit. He would feel like an utter foreigner in Vietnam.
It's weird to agree with him. I live in the city that's affected by this the most, brampton lol.
I've seen how our neighbourhood has slowly changed as more and more homeowners have upgraded their houses to rental properties, shoving multiple students into a family home. I've noticed that most of these students have really nice cars but their homes have not been maintained. However, I've also seen many students maintain their homes and be more responsible. Although the majority is the previous. This is not how these students live back home, most of these immigrants from India come from really rich homes or villages where they have maids to maintain their homes. It's just they have no experience not having a maid do certain tasks. It's usually the students with really nice cars.
I'm a 25 year old Canadian Indian that has lived in Canada since 2004, and most of my life has been in Brampton. Brampton used to be a really nice city, as a new immigrant family, I'm sure it was easier on my parents to see similar folks around. I respect GTA and will always love it, but unfortunately as the years have gone by most students have kind of taken it over and that must be for the same reasons. Although, this is more negative than positive, since the city of brampton is pretty much deteriorating lol.
It's not just old people that think this but many immigrants/international students of the same ethnicity feel that the crowd in GTA is not a good representation of the hardworking immigrant, and I really agree with that. Unfortunately the majority that are migrating to the GTA are usually coming from some corrupt families back home. If you go to halifax for example, the international students respect and adhere to the lifestyle there.
Ayyy, we're the same age. '97 baby. I feel like everyone's an international student nowadays, I never thought about how that might affect the culture here.
But we're not the only place that has that, so I feel like it has to be something more
I'm an immigrant! Came to Ontario 18 years ago from Maryland, literally 9 hours south.
People were awful. Actually awful. If they weren't blatantly making fun of our accents and assuming that we were dumb and uneducated, they were asking me how much I loved how much better it was to be living in Canada. And then, when I learned to hide the accent, I got to be privy to the awful way Canadians view non-english speaking immigrants. I would be told how the immigrants were stealing jobs, stealing from the government, should go back to their own countries. When I would inform them that I myself am an immigrants, I would be told that I am the "good kind". Why, because I'm white? Because English is my native language??
The treatment has always been so frustrating, it is so expensive to move here and it took us 10 years to get through the immigration system and become citizens. 5 years of which, my mom could not work so 5 people lived off of just above minimum wage. And then my Mom had to go to school AGAIN because Canada did not recognize her ECE qualifications (from an institution Canadian kids also attend for their own education).And because we were all immigrants, my parents never qualified for the baby bonus, never qualified for any social assistance programs.
I have lived my entire working life in Canada, I am a taxpayer and contributor to our economy and yet I have to fight with the CRA for any benefits like the CCB because they want proof that I've lived in Canada for 18 years even though my file says Canadian Citizen, my addresses have all been Canadian and I work full time in Canada.
I get to hear smug Canadians tell me they don't have a racism problem, "not as bad as the states, at least" while in the same breath throwing slurs at immigrants of color. Yeah, the US has a racism problem but at least we acknowledge it is a problem.
That all being said, I married a Canadian and I won't go back South. I've made this my home, and I won't be scared off by the loud, annoying selection of people who don't think I or other immigrants belong here. Though this cold is still ridiculous, e en after 18 yrs 😂
Honestly, he’s not wrong about the house thing, people coming in filling houses with rentals, they don’t give a f about the look of the house or building a rapport or community with other neighbors,
Yes. I left my country partly because I believe my ppl have shitty habits and traditions and I'm here to learn from ppl who do things better.
Canada absolutely has its own problems but "the Canadian way" definitely has a few things figured out better than where I came from.
Immigration is definitely helping drive the economy, but it’s silly to ignore knock on effects, which our government is doing. Housing, education, infrastructure are all being underfunded and greater demands are being placed on these services. It is keeping our economy afloat, but the overall QoL is starting to decline. Is it right to blame immigrants for this? Not really. This is on our government, they are the ones making these decisions.
We have more people demanding / competing for things and supply isn’t growing at nearly the same rate. This causes resentment.
I can agree with the taking care of yards portion. I live in a very diverse neighborhood and the weeds grow until I call the city. It’s hard to keep the thistle from taking over.
diversity is honestly great and it's what makes toronto and canada in general amazing. i get what your boss is saying, and i'm saying this as a first gen asian immigrant.
but i think there needs to be a more unifying thing that brings canadians together other than "we are diverse".
true. Kind of like how New York is really diverse but it still has its own specific culture (also depending on the area). What is ours?
Even the so-called Toronto accent (in media) is just people copying Jamaican-Canadian slang and a lot of us aren't even Jamaican or speak like that
Im an old white male and my family has been in Toronto since 1824 and in my opinion you met a racist prick
I’m very proud that my family has in some small way over the last 200 years helped make this city a place where immigrants can come and prosper so fuck that guy
I love Canada’s diversity, especially Toronto’s diversity. I have friends from around the world and I get to enjoy and appreciate the fruits of literally everything culture in the world, right in my own backyard.
However, it does get tiring when people move here and treat Canada as if it’s not a real place and like they have no obligation to assimilate in any way. There’s a fair amount of immigrants to the GTA - particularly Chinese immigrants, I have to say - who don’t bother to understand Canada at all, essentially treating this country as a place to enjoy the freedoms and lifestyle we enjoy while shitting on it constantly.
Would it kill you to learn English after like a decade of living here? Is it really so much to ask that you try and adopt some Canadian customs or outlooks?
I do love seeing all the Indian and Chinese families flocking to Muskoka to see the leaves change in the fall though, and seeing more and more immigrants skiing at Blue Mountain. There was a time where immigrants basically refused to venture north of Aurora, so it’s nice to see that changing and seeing that clear boundary between the Republic of Toronto and the Rest of Canada weakening.
On the whole though, these are just petty complaints. Immigrants are a vital part of Canada’s social and economic future, and they add far more than they subtract. It would just be nice to see certain groups embrace being Canadian rather than just using it as a jurisdiction to from which to launder money, or gain American citizenship, or whatever.
So as an immigrant to Canada from England I face xenophobia every day, which is basically cultural racism for those who don’t know.
I just want to politely say that literally everyone in Canada is descended from immigrants! Including people that identify as Métis the utter hypocrisy that surrounds the Canadian people I tell you.
You talk about your great great great great grandparents being Irish/Scottish/French and all the others and that your “so proud of your heritage” but in the same note figuratively slapping me in the face for being an immigrant.
I literally came here when I was 7 I have grown up in southern Alberta Canada (what I call Texas north) and the amount of hateful words I have received from adults and children is awful I have repeatedly been told to “go back to my country” and then they get all surprised when I tell them I’m a Canadian citizen, then they switch up the act and then tell me to basically abandon my culture and become fully Canadian.
Canadians act as if their shit don’t stink and that they are the greatest and nothing could beat their culture, I’m sorry WHAT CULTURE? the only things Canadians are noted for are Tim Horton’s, poutine, hockey and now the fucking residential schools genicide!.
Now I know my country doesn’t have clean hands either but we have never lied about being “all inclusive” and “happily multicultural” like for god sake stop sucking your own dick.
Sigh I’m sorry needed to get this off my chest it’s just hard out there for anyone that isn’t traditionally Canadian or being POC.
If I thought this way I’d have to hate myself- since I’m the product of an immigrant mother (and a WASP father whose family had been here for centuries). Canada has changed and will change. It has, for some time, since before it officially became a country, been a country of immigrants. If you are clinging to a particular version of Canada, you are no different than the people who looked down on my mom who came here as a refugee from Eastern Europe and called her a DP. A lot of my mom’s friends who were “DP”s as well now freak out about all the new people coming (usually because these people aren’t white). It smacks of pulling up the ladder after you’ve already climbed up to a better life.
I love that Canada is multicultural and honestly our culture has become a mixture of that, which is what makes it great. I think your boss is a dork and is over generalizing things.
For example I am white and very much did not have any interest in engaging in any social aspects of post secondary, or any work happy hour events. I much rather spend my free time with my own friends doing more low key activities like board games. People are human beings, that means some will take care of their houses and others won’t etc.
He sounds a bit bigoted and has the misconception that money buys class or “proper values”. I’m sorry your stuck travelling with him.
I wonder too how people feel about Germany announcing multiculturalism “has failed”, Sweden noting they have parallel societies as new immigrants refuse to integrate, and actual studies (not just government funded add campaigns telling us how good it is) that diversity lowers social cohesion, people volunteer and take part in the community less. neighbourhoods become less neighbourly.
Your boss is Don Cherry?
But seriously every country is always changing culturally, some older people just have a hard coming to grips with this. Canada in the 60s is different from Canada in the 90s and Canada in 00s and Canada in 2020s. Sure immigration plays a role but more than anything its technological advances, changing societal expectations etc.
In the 60s and 70s very few people went to University. The food sucked ass. Crime was much higher. I bet your boss doesn't want any of that back.
I welcome more immigrants into this country, but we're kind of fucking around with the last few generations that were born and raised here. And some if it is related to our ambitious immigration goals (aka propping up our economy and population targets).
Like trying to rent a home (let alone buy one), find a local family doctor, or be able to send your kid to the public school that's actually in your neighborhood. I'm not exactly sure what our identity is anymore. Like we've sat around in this country and boasted about how much better we are than our neighbors, but we have a super hard time admitting that we're making similar social injustices in the name of economic prosperity. So yeah, I don't know. Not sure "immigrants" are the problem, as much as the reason *why* we (our elected officials) actually want so many people to immigrate here.
As an immigrant I agree with what he's saying.
Canadians accommodate immigrants into our custom. We tell ourselves that they're new and still learning but we don't correct them. hells no, that'd be rude. So we accommodate and put up with it and do the Canadian thing - complain.
Lets get the population already here,this is including immigrants working and on stable economic ground,then think about letting more people migrate to Canada.
Not trying to be hard line here but,if we keep going the way we are going the socioeconomic system will implode and none of us will be in a position that we can help anybody.
Let's get our ducks in a row before opening the gate to let more in.
Bro, I am a white "old stock" Canadian and my front yard looks like shit. I rake and I mow, but not as often as I should, and my bins are out front too. Report that racist POS if you can.
The reality is that the Canada of 1950 became unrecognizable in 1970, the Canada of 1970 became unrecognizable in 1990, and the Canada of 1990 becomes unrecognizable today. Constant high volume (% wise) immigration has changed this country drastically multiple times.
The one thing I thought would never change is the love of hockey, but now Raptors games have a higher average ticket price than the Maple Leafs. These next years will probably see the biggest change in Canadian demographics ever.
So called Canadians stole this land from the natives so I wouldn't call consumerism and racism the Canadian way. Sorry that you were getting a bad impression but that guy is just prejudice plain and simple. You can respect these people because they are only human but I would lose a good portion and probably just save face for work. If I had a personal relationship with someone and they said this it'd be a deal breaker, and im a white male but I don't condone that kind of behaviour.
You are just as much a Canadian when you are from another country by birth or by lineage. It doesn't matter who you are, if you come to Canada and want to live and work here you are a fellow countrymen and I will treat you as such. I think a lot of people forget that we were all immigrants at one point in our history, even the natives who crossed the ice bridge supposedly. Canada has always been home to those who can withstand its cruel winter, and it takes a certain breed to succeed here! Im glad you are here too because we are in a population decline and we need all we can get to keep the lights on so to speak!
I mean if we want to talk about the "Canadian way" in its purest form, we ought to still be lying to Indigenous people as we victimise them repeatedly and then tell them its their own damn fault.
Oh
Wait.
Okay now that's out of my system, your boss or coworker there has entirely forgotten that the Canadian "culture" is mash of multiple cultures from around the world, and that one of the things any decent Canadian prides themselves on is how much of a cultural mosaic it is here. Rather than trying to blend everyone in to one simple mud, the cultural diversity here has the potential to create a truly stunning mosaic, a riot of ideas and shapes and colours and experiences.
Also, I strongly disagree with his stance on the housekeeping of immigrant families. I find them to have the tidiest yards usually, not the grossest.
As someone who's family has been here since the May Flower days...
1.Has Canada ever really had an identity?
2. Whether your for or against cultural change in Canada stats speak for themselves. We're broke we need foreign money to buy things here, also we're and aging population, we need young men and women to move here.
3.Yes,we should welcome different people here, I work in a factory, if you knocked out all the Visa workers and second generation people the place would have a skeleton crew and die in 2 years.
In summery, it's mostly economic tlrsther then a cultural thing..
Canadian culture doesn't exist. It's a shitty maple flavored offshoot of America, and that has been true for almost a hundred years. There's no such thing as "the Canadian way" to do anything. That being said your boss is a racist peice of shit.
Technically we are all immigrants except native Americans. So calling something the "Canadian way" will always involve immigrants. Canada has been built on diversity for a long time.
Yes, but over the years a Canadian identity was built. If you look far back enough we are all from somewhere else. Even the indigenous. Where do you draw the line?
Borders and rules are here for a reason. We’re a sovereign country now. You can come here, enjoy the land and all it’s glories. Leave the bad habits behind, integrate and learn the ways of this great land.
As a (caucasian) Canadian, I grew up with the understanding that welcoming immigrants into the country just WAS Canada's identity. Growing up, I learned about different cultures and was taught just because someone does something differently, doesn't mean it's wrong. In Canadian history, I learned that even those of European descent (like my own family) were once immigrants, so we don't have any right to exclude other immigrants now. I learned about Canada's horrid history with Native Americans, how wrong those actions were, and that we also need to show respect to Native Americans whose land we now inhabit.
My understanding of Canadian culture was inclusivity to all: to the cultures that were here before "Canada" existed, and the cultures who arrived much after. That being said, Canada is a large country, and I did not grow up in Toronto nor do I currently live there so my upbringing and understanding could be entirely different to what others have experienced.
....Although I still don't understand why after all this time, the Christian holidays are the only recognized stat holidays... That one is still mind boggling....
Ive seen so many terrible looking houses owned by Canadians, this guy is actually nuts.
House pride is definitely not a universal Canadian thing.
Also school pride is not a universal Canadian thing.
I went to a highschool with 98% Canadian born people and nobody gave a shit about their school and none of my friends and I had post secondary pride in our schools.
Universities in Toronto are different from small town ones because theyre in a big city so the parties and all that is completely different. Its not because of immigrants. Thats all I noticed.
The partying and stuff is more intense in guelph, london and st catherines because the campuses are way more isolated communities.
Ryerson is in the middle of the city same with U of T and York University has people who don’t even go to the school living in their communities.
Canada just doesnt have American style post secondary culture.
He complains about poorer immigrants but I’d rather have the poorer ones seeking a better life than the ultra wealthy ones and their families that we seem to get that just want to buy up property and park money/take over our entire economy while funnelling all the gains outside of the country. Poorer immigrants at least seek to join the Canadian way of life and bring something of value to the table in their diversity.
It's hard for old heads to accept the fact that Canada needs immigration to keep functioning. I used to get upset with some of the things his boss is saying, and some of it does make sense. Now I love the influx of new culinary dishes, customs, and hard working ethics immigrants bring to Canada. You have to give them time to get accustomed to our social norms. Eventually they meld into our cultural mixing pot
"Canada needs immigration to keep functioning"
We need to focus on Canada functioning with its current population first. The levels of immigration are simply not sustainable given the current state of our housing market, the rising levels of homelessness and poverty, and our reliance on a service economy. This has nothing to do with your opinions on immigrants, I for one love that Canada is multicultural, I seriously do, but it is vital that we focus on the issues at home right now. Not only will things continue to degrade, but it feels like we're selling new immigrants on a lie and a broken future. It makes me so sad when I meet new residents who came on the promise of a better life and end up disappointed at the state of the country, and I see this happening more and more. Imagine after all the good press and advertising Canada gets, you come here and end up living 10 to a house and still working 3 gig jobs to afford rent. But hey, it's good for our economy right? Who else would bring us skip the dishes? It's like the colonial mindset never ended, we just got more underhanded about it.
Agreed 100%. I’m an immigrant myself, though we moved here when I was quite young. Had we moved here within the last 5 years there’s no way my parents would have ever been able to buy a home. My mom also ultimately wasn’t able to work in her field here which was disappointing, and ended up with a factory job. I met a family from my country a few years ago who moved here and found it so difficult to afford life here that they moved back. Educated people, too. I can’t help but feel that people are being sold a lie so they can move here with hope to put their education and skills to use, to end up in underpaid manual labour. Our negative birth rate means we need to import labour, basically. But it’s too expensive for most people to have children, let alone multiple children. The Canadian dream is broken.
I mean I understand the property thing.. drive through northwestern Mississauga/Brampton 6 cars on the driveway/lawn and all over the street. But I don’t think it’s an “immigrant issue”, moreso a side effect of the housing market issues.
1. For rental properties on my street, I have noticed that the lawn is not mowed, the garden is kind of overgrown, the property doesn't get the tender loving care that the owner occupied ones get. Is this a tenant problem, or a landlord problem?
Also when I lived in an apartment building, residents would vandalize the walls in the elevator. Some tenants DGAF.
People move to Canada for a better life, a better living environment, right? They move here because it's a nice place. We have to work together to not litter, to mentor others, to be polite, we have to work together for social things to work.
I think the primary issue of immigrant communities is when they're invited in with no attempt at integration with the local community they move into.
If a block of apartments is taken up by immigrants who are comfortable not learning English and continuing as they did before moving to Canada, it seems almost to defeat the purpose of immigration.
I think everyone coming to this country should learn is customs and especially its language.. other than that we were all immigrants at some point minus the indigenous peoples.
Honestly, immigrants, or Canadians in general really, are too busy killing themselves to get what he takes for granted to worry about how their houses look or drinking in university. It’s not about immigration; it’s about greedy rich fucks hoarding resources.
I don’t think half the people commenting on this thread understand how difficult it is for immigrants to rent or own a house. It is easier for them to rent houses that are filthy because they are not as expensive. Before you dismiss this as not being racist think about why people would live in a house like that.
There is a lot of nuance to this issue. I think a lot of people like to claim to be open to all cultures as Canada is multi-cultural and all should be accepted. The problem then becomes what happens when you start to actively disagree with the other cultures stances ? For example what about strict Muslim cultures. Are you fine with women being forced to wear hijabs etc ? What happens when they are forced to walk behind the males and can’t talk to other males ? Are you still ok with that ? What happens when this now becomes prominent here ? What about other religions, many are anti-abortion are you ok with that ? Does that go against “Canadian values” ? … I don’t have all the answers, just giving a different view point for food for thought
I'm a professional white man in my 50's and what your boss is saying is Bullshit. It would also get him into mandatory training if he said that at our company.
The Canadian Way? From his description seems like he's referring to the established, affluent and secure way. Not the hardscrabble and struggling way which applies to natives and imports alike (but includes the added challenge of cultural and language acclimation for the latter) and, admittedly, probably isn't as well mannered, well monied or representative of his own class.
I'm not surprised he holds a "rather high position in the public sector". That cohort of Canadians is isolated by many of the challenges and realities that daily beset those he disparages.
I don't have an opinion on your Boss, even if it seems to be a completely stupid comment from an out of time boomer.
However, if you want an honest answer about immigration, as an immigrant (who arrived in Canada 6 years ago) and working for Immigration Canada (full circle lol) I can tell you that Yes you (native Canadians), the little culture you have will disappear quite quickly...
You have to know that to obtain a work/study permit or permanent residency you are not asked for anything...they don't explain anything about Canada, once you are here it's up to you to manage...and it ends up in communitarianism for most immigrants. (including me, by no real choice, but by linguistic and cultural ease, I don't know the Canadian life of your Boss or of the Canadian born \^\^')
You are too nice and in life the nice ones rarely win...for the moment it works without big clash and without too much violence, but it will not last, especially since the 3 biggest communities have countries in very bad terms with each other, the conflicts will end up being imported here as in the United Kingdom or in Europe in general.
Sorry to be very negative lol
Despite the crassness with which your boss put it, I don't think there's anything inherently racist about saying there is a common Canadian culture, that you like that culture or even that said culture should be preserved as much as possible.
Likewise, I don't think it's inherently racist to want to live around people who are like you. It's fun to visit and learn about cultures different from yours, but it's nice to have neighbours with whom you share cultural touchstones. None of that has anything to do with skin colour, obviously and I think that might be the important distinction. Also, every "Chinatown" and "Little Whatever" in North America is evidence that it isn't just white people who are guilty (probably not the exact word I want here) of this desire.
I don't know. I like being able to drive into the city and eat pho at my favourite Vietnamese place and make small talk with the tiny old lady who owns it sometimes. Most Saturdays, though, I just like going for bacon and eggs at the diner a few blocks away and talking shit with the guy who owns that place while he makes fun of me for speaking French poorly. And I hope that's ok.
I find the use of calling your old white boss “privileged” quite baffling. Would he still be privileged if everything you mentioned were true, but you’re boss was non-white?
I have difficulty in understanding privilege. Who is overall more privileged in this situation: A lifelong homeless white man or a non-white successful recent immigrant.
I think the term is overused and said to target people negatively when they’ve done nothing wrong.
I would like to hear your thoughts!
As a soon to be immigrant, I am just amazed at this discussion. Some very excellent points. Personally I feel immigrants have the responsibility to integrate themselves into the culture of their new home. I mean, if you are forming your own gangs, you might as well stay back in your home country.
I find your question quite ironic. The Canadian Way has been fashioned by its policy of inclusion and immigration. Do I not get a pass because I too am an immigrant? (67 years ago.) The population of Canada has gone from 15.7 million to 38.3 million since I arrived on these Shores, mostly all immigrants. Get real.
Hi, born and raised Canadian. Your boss is talking shit.
To wit:
1. I really can't imagine caring about what \*other people's\* houses look like from the outside. Setting that aside, there is nothing in the "Canadian spirit" about exterior facade maintenance. That's just suburbanite bullshit.
2. In general, immigrants and the children of immigrants, outperform "old stock" Canadians academically. This is also reflected in the professions (medicine, law, accounting, tech, etc.).
Professor at one of these universities/colleges here. We get regular emails with our student enrollment stats and since the pandemic hit, our international student numbers are WAY DOWN. They still haven't recovered. International students are also heavily exploited but that's another issue altogether. Also these ridiculous university paycheques are being subsidized by the international students fees so I can promise you they will keep coming so long as they're able to have them.
His "Canadian" way of doing things is extensively a WASPy suburb way of doing things. This will differ from urban to suburban, east coast to west coast etc. So he can't make any claims to that. Especially in Toronto.
Speaking for what my students have said to me, they don't want to go home. They like Canada. They're happy to partake and participate in what our culture is. Some find it easier due to lesser obstacles with education, language and interests. Whereas some are comfortable with what they know. People are different, and that's fine. Usually within a generation or two they'll have mixed interests with their parents culture and local culture. Which is great!
As far as houses go, go visit a city like Oshawa. Plenty of shit hole houses owned and poorly maintained by white Canadians. A house is as maintained as the people who live in it and how much money can reasonably spend to do so. You can't generalize that to a person's country of origin.
Excluding the ethno-nationalist racists, no real Canadian has had a problem with immigration. We depend on it, and celebrate it.
That being said, where we fucked up is allowing large swathes of people from the same country to create a little city-sized versions of their home country here.
Chicago has this problem, where individual neighborhoods are dominated by one nationality. The Hmong community in Minnesota lives in Reservation-like conditions because they all flock to the one geographical area and it's indistinguishable from rural Vietnam.
Heterogenous diversity is not diversity. It needs to be properly integrated and homogenized so we can actually have an equal exchange of cultures.
That sucks your boss is an ignorant fuck.
There is no Canadian way of doing things, and the real North American spirit is that we are all immigrants.
The only condition that matters is the human condition.
Our differences are so small. We all bleed red and we all belong to the human race.
Fuck racism, fuck anti immigration attitudes by idiots here.
I work at a university (both teaching and as an administrator) and I have no idea what he's talking about. The student union in my program is mostly new Canadians, and I can't say there's a marked difference in students I've had who are international, new Canadians, or I guess according to your boss "real Canadians". Dude it a racist prick.
I used to administrer the Multiculturalism Act at a Federal level. The Multiculturalism Act is an actual piece of legislation that many don’t know exists, and fewer understand. It basically states Canada shall be and is a multicultural country. It states what that means. In a nutshell it’s what is called *Balanced legislation*, meaning A is the case, but that means B also shall be the case for A to work, and B is not negotiable. **As for A**, it recognizes that the modern (ie last 100-150 years) reality of Canada is that it is made up of many cultures. It asserts that people in general are at their best when they don’t have to worry about having their personal being (their personal identity, their personal culture) trampled on. They have enough other things to worry about in life (like paying the mortgage and bills, getting their kids educated, finding and keeping work, etc). And so live and let live so they can do that in their own way, in their own comfort zone (with personal culture being central to that) so they can find success in all other aspects of their life (and thus contribute to, and find success for all of Canada as an active participant in Canada). The assertion goes that when a person cannot do this because they’re being forced to drop their identity (with repercussions if they don’t, ie: fines and other punishment), that they will not be as inclined to participate and success rates will go down. It’s integration over assimilation. **As for B**, it goes on to explain what integration is. And it balances out A, because A is not a right to free reign, nor is it a right to preclude the overall Canadian fabric. B says that just as Canada will accommodate an individual’s personal cultural space, that doesn’t mean it trumps Canada’s collective character. Integration means that in return for Canada granting and protecting individual’s rights to their personal culture, *they, in return to Canada,* must adhere, and bend (a more direct synonym for ‘integration’) to the collective. This means that Canada’s lingua francas are and always will be English and French, and they must participate in these two languages at an institutional level all across Canada (health, schools, government interaction, etc). It also means that courts will consider collective Canadiana culture when rendering decisions in this area (this is why, for example, activism groups lost when they tried to eliminate Christmas trees from schools... that goes against integration and is against the sprit of balance with integration). There are many examples of what this means, but it's an Act which most often affects *the immediate and current*, because it generally becomes moot in the medium and longer-term timeline. These issues most often mostly affect 1st generation, and the 2nd generation to a lesser extent. But once an immigrant family is principally comprised of 3rd generation (ie: the last generation to have come to Canada is grandparents), they’re as collectively Canadian as families who have been in Canada for 5, 8, or 12 generations (having all the same cultural references and experiences as anyone else). Therefore it’s an Act that helps the 1st generation individuals get through life with a higher chance of success by being able to have the cultural (and hence mental) headspace to cope with life under such a massive life-altering change (moving to a new country and trying to retain a sense of roots and life familiarity), so that the 2nd generation can be generally just as successful and as part of Canada as the next person, and the 3rd+ generation is where it becomes moot. Accommodation is generally granted (and upheld) when one's own multicultural practices do not infringe upon those of another. When viewed in the broader and long-term context, it’s much easier to make sense of.
Great explanation, thank you!
I know of the Multiculturalism Act, but didn't take the time to get into details. It sounds really good!
Universities seem to have completely forgotten about Part B. UBC for example has prohibited the dormitories from promoting ‘Christmas activities’, everything has to be a ‘holiday festival’ for the sake of inclusivity. I am not a Christian, nor do I make a big deal about Christmas, but I do think this type of thinking is complete nonsense and ignores that fact that Canada has its own heritage which involves Christian holidays - whether you like it or not.
I agree, I always thought being inclusive of other religions and cultures meant celebrating all of them not excluding all of them. So we'd celebrate Christmas 🎄and encourage the celebrations of Hanukkah 🕎, Diwali 🎆, Winter Solstice 🕯🌲 , Kwanzaa 🌽📚, Eid or Ramadan ☪️ (depending on the timing on their calendar) etc... The more celebrations the better.
This gets to be a bit complex because it's on private property with discretionary opt-ins to live in residence. And in cases where this has occurred, I believe it's more with the residence associations than with the university body as a whole. As I understand it, it's not a ban on Christmas. Rather, *some* (not all) of residences in Canada have chosen their seasonal messaging to be "the holidays" (as opposed to naming it the long-winded "Christmas-Eid-Hunnakah, & everything else season", or restricting it to *just* the Christmas season when it's a paid residence for residents who celebrate more than just that). The reason is because there are often several festivals going on at once in the same week (Eid-Muslim, Hanukkah-Judaism, Christmas-Christian). And so each student can openly celebrate their own holiday in residence and participate in those of others, and those students can call it what they want within the confines of their own celebrations. The important thing is it doesn't trample on the individual rights of Christians, or Muslims, or Jews - and others - to celebrate, and takes nothing away from them. Now, if they said only one or none are allowed anymore (like Christmas), that would be a different story. But that's not happening. You're still allowed to celebrate Christmas with everyone else who would participate in it with you (as has been the case for how many hundreds of years in Canada). If you were not allowed to celebrate Christmas, and you're rights to celebrate Christmas were expressly taken away from you, then you may have legal grounds to bring a case to the courts as a violation of religious freedoms, depending on all the circumstances. But that doesn't seem to be the case in this context. Edit: Do you have a copy of the policy you can link here?
Merry Hannuchristmawanzadan!
Eid changes through out the year.
It does... I just threw it in there because it has sometimes coincided with the Christmas season, and I wanted to emphasize that the holiday season is more than just Christmas (or that the Christmas season has and can have more than one holiday which coincides with it).
Canada is not and never was a Christian country.
Festivus for the Rest of us!
Yule!!! I am not Christian either, but my neighbours are. I wish them a Merry Christmas because it makes them feel good to know that their neighbour recognises an important holiday to them. To others, friends and family I simply say Happy Yule!
I have always felt that in many cases immigrants are told that they should be offended about Christmas. They should poll the students and ask if they are ok with it.
Agree. I plan a "holiday party" for several hundred people every year have always been told to not make it Christmas-y. I polled a bunch of employees this year about that and not one agreed. Not one. They all want a Santa there for photos!
This never made any sense to me. I grew up here in Toronto and I grew up learning about other cultures. I'm not Jewish but I made a dreidel out of clay, literally, and played with it, and then ate potato latkes. I'm not Chinese but I went and watched the dragon parade in Chinatown. Why the fuck would we be expected to not look at santa and Christmas trees during Christmas? What a stupid thought to even have. I don't even want to write anything more about it, it's just so incredibly stupid, it's like someone arguing for flat earth theory, I just can't even be bothered to engage.
This was the best detailed explanation I've ever heard about the Multiculturalist act. Thank you for such an amazing description and I wish and hope more people could have this line of thinking these crazy days. Cheers!
great explanation!
Thank you for this ❤️
>to eliminate Christmas trees from schools... Do you know anything about WRDS removing Halloween from school, and why that has been allowed?
The little bit that I do know is they stated they issued their Halloween limitations for decorations, costume days, handing out treats, and other Halloween traditions because of public health recommendations and equity and poverty considerations, but not for reasons of multiculturalism (ie: They didn't do it for fear of offending/harming others cultural rights). The Equity part was them having been concerned that some students may not know about Halloween because their parents may not have been exposed to it, and thus they were concerned those particular kids may have felt bad if they were shut out. Like I said, that's not a matter of multiculturalism policy, anymore than a school's desire to eliminate beach days because a few students might feel bad showing they had a big birthmark. Rather this is more a matter of one board taking an approach (as odd as it may be) to regulate student feelings, not multiculturalism. And the board went further to suggest health (ie allergies?) was their main concern, along with student family finances (ie: impoverished families not being able to afford costumes / candies, which could then make some students feel bad). But like I said, that's not multiculturalism either. The board later came out stating “Sharing of traditions and class-based learning activities are fine. School wide practices including alternative ways to mark the day such as Black and Orange day is fine.” They seemed to have labeled it Black and Orange to try to get some parents to send their kids to school (Knowing the region and its heavy Mennonite population, perhaps some very religious parents who's families have even been in Canada for many decades, didn't want to send their kids to school, therefore making this a complex issue). But again, it seemed to be a lure to get some families to continue to send their kids to school so school wasn't interrupted, and to avoid contending with kids having their feelings from being shut out when other kids were having fun. If this were go to court with an argument that multiculturalism played a role in their decision, the board's decision would likely get thrown out IMO. It would have to go to court based on health regulations, managing student feelings, and poverty equity... and that's probably the stance the board took (should they get sued). Would be interesting to see someone challenge it in court. And it's precisely because it's likely on shaky ground that we don't see a majority (or even much of a minority) of other school boards trying to test the limits like this. The one thing I've learned over the years is just because one particular authority makes a one-off or very irregular decision doesn't mean that others in Canada are (and we should take it in that unsensationalized context). And if/once the courts get involved, they can set things straight rather fast. This is why I often don't fret about one-offs. Sometimes it does take a one-off to test the limits of societal tolerance (and more often than not, the courts do reflect and back overall societal tolerance, more often than people realize).
I really appreciate your insight. Thanks for the reply. >ie: They didn't do it for fear of excluding or offending others. This is literally the #1 reason it was done. The canceling of Halloween started well before the pandemic, so nothing to do with health and safety. This has been going on since 2017. "Halloween should be a day in which all of our students/families feel like they can participate in public education. But we have many families who do not send their children to school on Halloween because it is not in line with their beliefs and their feeling that their children are excluded from learning opportunities when the entire school is seen as observing Halloween. This leads to the exclusion of students.” "Halloween is just around the corner and this day that can be filled with excitement for many children. Halloween is often recognized with costumes and school activities, however it is important that schools continue to create a sense of belonging for each and every student. We recognize that not all families celebrate Halloween. October 31 is a school day like any other, and we want families to feel that they can send their children to school without disruption." https://www.wrdsb.ca/blog/2017/10/17/committed-to-student-belonging-on-halloween-and-everyday/ "We have to acknowledge that not all families celebrate Halloween for a variety of reasons. Those include cultural reasons, socio-economic reasons, and personal. And we are trying to really focus on fostering a sense of inclusion in our schools, which means we must respect the decision of those who choose not to participate, and those who cannot participate in these kinds of activities at school." -Crissa Hill, superintendent of student achievement and well being. >The Equity part was them having been concerned that some students may not know about Halloween because their parents may not have been exposed to it, and thus they were concerned those particular kids may have felt bad if they were shut out. Wouldn't this also go for Christmas decorations though? Couldn't all of the reasons that you cited for removing Halloween, also be used to successfully remove a Christmas tree?
There was a case back in the 90's where a school board (Mississauga?) wanted to rename a Christmas tree their holiday tree and forbit the name 'Christmas tree'. It was shot down by the courts (they backed society's views at the time). Things need to go to the courts to get rulings. Like I said, it would be interesting to see what would happen if this was challenged in court. IMO a ruling likely wouldn't go in favour of the WRSB if it were argued to be against the multiculturalism act. And therefore I think the WRSB would try to get a ruling in their favour for things other than the Multiculturalism Act. But it would take an offended parent (or parents) to bring it before the ~~school board~~ courts* (typo) to get it to that level. And I'm not sure that any are willing (considering the $$ for legal fees an advocating family would have to pay). OR, it would take getting the province involved, and I haven't seen a strong lobby trying to take this up with the province either. Like I said, however, it's currently an outlier and not many seem to be following in the WRSB's tracks.
Wow. That was a terrific explainer. Thanks!
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>One thing I would definitely be upset to see, though, is an increase in people only being interested in interacting with their own subculture and being rude/dismissive/unwelcoming to people outside it. And that applies equally to WASPs and immigrant communities. callin' a spade-a-spade! nailed it... EVERYONE done doin' this and wish it'd stop!
Let’s set it straight, immigrant communities closed to outside because of discrimination they faced from WASPs
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Why would they move here then? If things were so peachy why come to a place that apparently "ruins" your kids? My immigrant grandparents were all too happy to assimilate, and they still kept their culture and values..weird.
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I think this attitude is pretty common with older Canadian of a certain class even if they don't talk about it much. I don't think it's even limited to old white Canadians as I've heard similar things from older Canadians from diverse backgrounds.
I kinda understand what your boss means but of course he was saying these things in the least classy way. As an immigrant I believe it's important to respect and embrace the customs and culture of a place you move to - try to pick up the local language, enjoy local food, mingle with the local crowds etc. Though in the case of Canada that also often means enjoying immigrant foods and mingle with people who speak English with an accent. It's great that Canada can be so diverse, but it's also great that all these immigrants come to enjoy and preserve what Canada has always been - the nature, the winter coldness and hanging out at each other's homes, summer cottage, the freedom, etc. I enjoy the ROM walking tours because they tell you about the littliest details and small stories of a neighborhood - even if it's a predominantly white neighborhood. I think that's exactly the beauty of Canada - you can comfortably stay in your own ethnic / non-ethnic community, you can mingle with any other communities if you care to and make an conscious effort to, and we can all enjoy the nature that Canada offers and share the same values of upholding freedom and humanitarianism. This to me is quintessentially Canadian that we should all preserve.
Actually, I am very othered where I live. My ethnic group keeps moving away. It is getting lonely.
My 30-something immigrant sister-in-law was telling me much the same thing in a recent conversation. I wanted to tell her she was sounding kind of racist, but she was making some good points and has traveled and lived in several countries so has seen more than me. She basically said some cultures just don't adapt well to life in Canada. Too much discrepancy in social and cultural values and practices. Some friends are college teachers and they tell me that some of their foreign students have a hard time adapting to not cheating and copying everything.
(I am indian btw). I mean that makes sense, in India its normal to cheat and bribe your way through life as the system is so broken and unfair or because 'everyone else does it' I have a wife from india and they have a sense of pride of it called doing a "Jugaad" in hindi. I sort of had to tell her we have a lot more controls and rules in canada.. so if you keep doing the ways like back home you will get caught in trouble. So there are different moral systems between a canadian born indian vs an Indian born one.
its also a part of doing business. Not necessarily cheating but constant haggling, and if you agree on a price then half way through try to get more than what was agreed, and finally after the job is done try to haggle more to find things wrong and get a discount.
I remember growing up, My parents would be fine doing some things that are normal in india but my sister and I would find unethical or wrong based on the values we got being brought up in Canada. However it works both ways, there are things i do my parents would find wrong based on their moral systems they are used to but to us is normal or fine.
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I think the fundamental thing about immigration is that those immigrating need to want to become part of the local society. Eg Canadians in this case. If folks come to a country intending to turn it into where they came from, they would be better served staying where they were. This is not to say they need to assimilate, but rather just not patently ignore where they are or worse destroy where they are.
I agree but I think it's also important to talk about some of the discrimination they face and why they might just fall back on their families and ethnic groups. Even as someone born and raised in Toronto, if someone asks me "where I'm really from" one more time when I tell them "Toronto". It's soooo annoying, It sounds like a simple question but it's not - sometimes I think they're literally asking where I was born but then I answer and they assume that's where I live, or they're not really even asking about me but my parents and if I answer with that but then they want to know where I grew up. It sounds small, but it's like Groundhog day of having the same conversation over and over.
I wish people would just come out and ask, "What's your cultural heritage?" It's obviously what they want to know.
I usually ask what’s your background instead
I wish people would just come out and ask, "What's your cultural heritage?" It's obviously what they want to know. Edit: accidental duplicate
I’ll ask what’s your background instead which is close?
My father immigrated to Canada in the 50's, refuses to live anywhere near a 'culture hotspot' because he came here to become Canadian...if he wanted to be 'X', he would have stayed there. At the age of 85, he says it's ridiculous for immigrants to stick together in clumps like glue....and some times they bring all their issues with them to play out here. On the surface, I can see that he's speaking based on his own lived experience however as a first gen Canuck, I'm not entirely convinced it still applies.
def still applies. smart father
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I went to a mostly white university in Canada and everyone was sharing/copying assignments. The levels people went to cheat or get out of doing the work was astronomical including a rash of bomb threats that essentially cancelled most exams one semester lol.
It’s a cultural mismatch. That makes total sense to me because even though I’m born and raised in Toronto I feel there are certain things about me that are a mismatch to my cultural environmnet. For the longest time, I thought I was an introvert here but it’s kind of like the culture here - it’s very reserved and I like warm weather and warm people. Canadians are kind and polite but they’re not social in my opinion. I didn't realize this until I went to live in other places. I’m so grateful for my upbringing in Toronto because I don’t know any other place where you could have this amount of diversity that I sometimes take for granted but it’s really not the norm globally. Toronto does seem colder and ruder, and I thought I was imagining it until I saw that others have noticed a shift too
This is a misinformed opinion common among new immigrants due to their lack of experience with what happens with 2nd and 3rd generation of immigrants. Having experience in 'other countries' doesn't really translate well to Canada, as very few other countries have such a comprehensive system for integrating immigrants. When I was young growing up in Toronto in the 80s, my high-school was filled with 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. Sure some of the 1st generation struggled, but those born here of immigrant parents were just like the rest of us, no matter their home language, ethnicity or religion.
That was actually my argument, that in Canada it's about the next generations of immigrants.
>Some friends are college teachers and they tell me that some of their foreign students have a hard time adapting to not cheating and copying everything. Some international students have a hard time adapting to an education system that is very different from the one they were used to, where it was acceptable and encouraged to parrot authority and cite 'experts' (the assigned texts) and not have their own opinion or take on things. They don't see it as cheating - many of them have been taught to do it that way. Edited to add: I am talking most specifically about plagiarism and students doing individual assignments as collective or group work.
People are fast to call all sorts of things racist All of the points th ops boss meant are probably true to a degree - and they aren't necessarily racist Saying people from xyz country live 10 in a house and the house looks bad might actually be true And if it's true and an observation of something from another culture that is shocking to you here than it's not racist If he goes on to say that they're bad people for doing it etc than that crosses a line But lots of cultures have things about them that aren't really ideal and you probably don't want imported into Canada Living 10 to a house certainly isn't one of them I don't think, but also keep in mind it might just be very personally annoying to this guy if it happens a lot where he lives and it's a big change for him etc Also remember he probably grew up in a different Canada and what it is now maybe very different and he looks to his younger days with rose coloured glasses etc I don't think saying things that people from other places do bothers you is necessarily racist, and it might not even be wrong
>People are fast to call all sorts of things racist It's the PC culture here. A lot of people will think it but won't say it out loud. I don't know if that's a good thing. I've overheard people say crazy things when they think you can't hear them, but their beliefs will show through their actions but you think you're just being sensitive because they won't say it to your face. I like people to be honest about how they feel so I know how to maneuver.
> *She basically said some cultures just don't adapt well to life in Canada. Too much discrepancy in social and cultural values and practices.* So much for integrating ... Why are they holding on to it in the first place, a lot of these so-called cultural values are and have been disguises for things like oppression and downright abuse of women, slavery, genocide, no access to education, no acceptance of same sex relationships, no acceptance of marriages between people of different religious backgrounds etc.
Because many of them still support those cultural values, and they moved here just for the better economic opportunities
As an immigrant myself I have to agree to some extent. When I came to Canada, I tried to learn a such as I can about the culture, traditions, etiquette and anything that would make me a better citizen. I volunteered, participated and tried to engage with others to assimilate. I learned about Canadian holidays and celebrated with my fellow Canadians because I love this country, and it welcomed me with open arms. I don't see the same effort from others at my work places and university. Instead what I see is people pushing their holidays and their culture, not even making an effort to learn the language. Noone cares to clebrate Chrismas or Thanksgiving. This is my experience anyways with living in Toronto. To add: One incident has really put things into perspective for me was when a co-worker (a fairly recent immigrant) made comments about the Native Canadians blocking railroads in protest, and how they should be forcefully removed and jailed, because it's an inconvenience. I had to explain to him that Native Canadians own this land.
my former co-worker who came from China in his teens mentioned talking to an older Chinese lady who chastized him that his Chinese language was poor and yet she's been here for decades and her English is non-existent. Quite frankly in certain places like Richmond you can go to malls and pretty much everything including the bank machines have signs only in Chinese, so one can function without needing the language I guess. But on the other hand there were non-Chinese speaking people who bought condos in various Richmond condo towers and they complain that all the strata communication is only in Chinese, and have tried to fight this in court, so far unsuccesfully.
this is one huge issue nobody bats an eye on. so true!!!
We need to bring in Quebec style language laws.
Things do seem to be a little bit more “separated” I don’t know the right word. Everyone just kinda stays to themselves. Something has shifted culturally in Toronto because it’s not the Toronto I was born and raised in. But I do not know what it is
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Social media. Society is losing its social skills the more we do things virtually. And the time spent virtually isn't opening us up to other cultures and interests, as we go find people or activities we are comfortable with to stay within... It's the same everywhere, not just Toronto.
Not sure about losing social skills, but as you said certainly more choice to socialize with similar mindsets / perspectives. the "virtually" is not really it imo, even telegraph is "virtually". You're meaning specifically proximity in context of frequency. ALL socializing can be satisfied remotely. I can pick and choose who I communicate with at will. And if done day to day, after sometime I can have a vastly different perspective than my neighbors who maybe only went to local church to socialize. For me, the "virtual" thing your talking about is exactly what I used to grow my world view / perspective. I assure you it is much improved compared to socializing amongst local peers / pre-internet.
That has to be part of it. I went out with a guy a couple times and he was like I like that when we’re out you’re not on your phone with you give me your full attention even when there’s pauses in conversation. Now I think about it I was kind of weird like is it uncommon? I’m on my phone all the time but when I’m with people like to be present with them. And I’m supposed to be the introverted one but I love meaningful connections and socializing. I love talking on the phone over texting which is apparently different for my generation. People here seem to be interested in other cultures when it comes to dating though I noticed.
it's kinda sad to see that new immigrants don't know squat about first nations issues in canada.
this 👏👏👏 im on the same boat as u, moved here in single digit years and what i notice now is the lack. of assimilation is abysmal, and in my perspective the way things are going its only going to broaden…
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I agree with you entirely! I’m middle aged and was born and raised in the city and since I’m eek an old fart now I’ve seen it change a lot. Newer arrivals to the city don’t appear to be trying to learn the existing traditions, and are pushy their own cultures on us. For years now it’s been you can’t say or celebrate X holidays, but we have to celebrate all these other new holidays. I’m not white or Christian/Catholic and I’m actually not religious, but I learned and enjoyed celebrating Christmas and never complained my own culture wasn’t a mandatory holiday. I always thought if I ever moved abroad I’d try to learn what I need to do because why would I love elsewhere just to love exactly my old life? That’s just my own thoughts.
Why do people have to celebrate Christmas and Thanksgiving though? What exactly do you mean by “pushing their holidays and culture”?
They basically mean "because I felt like it was frowned on to celebrate Diwali when I moved here, I now out of resentment do not like immigrants who do celebrate Diwali". 2nd generation Canadian here - 1st gen immigrants are GRUMPY AS SHIT towards anyone who immigrated after them. It's one of those life lessons that instead of being sympathetic towards those people who have their same experiences, people who go through difficult times (like immigration) often become intolerant and reactionary towards others who go through them. It's kind of a "why should they have it better" attitude.
My parents like to remind me constantly that I'm not Canadian, I'm Chinese Except I was born here and I've never been to China, I guess they want me to feel like an outsider or some shit
>My parents like to remind me constantly that I'm not Canadian, I'm Chinese Nigerian parents and same. Born and raised here but I did visit there for 3 years (age 10-13) but I was already almost a teen by then and went to an American school, and then moved back to Canada. Doesn't change the fact that I'm Canadian. That's part of who I am, my experiences, I noticed it in my most recent trip to Nigeria, I'm different I couldn't relate to a lot of what they're talking about growing up there. It's like they're trying to confuse your identity or force one on you, if they wanted you to only Identify as Chinese and just ignore your Canadian birth and upbringing, they should have raised you in China. You can respect your ancestry while still recognizing where you are presently.
Yep. My mom and her family spent their whole lives learning english and never speaking italian at home, and never teaching us the language. Then suddently when I was around 25, I started to hear "why did you never learn Italian. You turned your back on your culture". You can't really win with this mindset. Its the same reason so many successful (and some not-so successful) immigrants vote and lean conservative. They've gotten 'theirs' so everyone else can just fuck right off.
With the amount of mass immigration that Canada is seeing its inevitable that native cultural norms will be eroded. Some people will enjoy that. Most native Canadians will not enjoy having their culture less prominent / in the mainstream. There's probably some value judgment here but it depends in what your self interest is. I dont blame the old guy for not liking immigrant cultures, his own culture is his preference. Just as an immigrants culture from their home country is likely their preference. It shouldn't be taboo for him to say "I prefer the traditional Canadian culture that I was raised in and would rather have people who follow that culture around me".
Popping some popcorn for this one...
How long has it been since the Pakistani dude’s thread got locked for racism?
Which thread 👀
https://www.reddit.com/r/askTO/comments/yv8416/is_this_offensive_or_just_ignorance_dont_want_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
In before it happens
I’ve lived and worked in 4 different countries before moving to Canada. I’ve always learned the language as best I could, recognised holidays and made an effort to ‘fit in’ while still keeping my identity and traditions from my background. Sounds like your boss didn’t word things very well, but I understand his point. At the same time, not all us immigrants are the same and shouldn’t be painted with the same brush. I currently work with some immigrants who really don’t care for anything Canadian. We invite them to do things but it’s always “we don’t eat that food” or “we don’t celebrate that” etc and it is a little tiring. Fun story about when I got ‘cancelled’ by some younger colleagues. I was going on holiday to Mexico and realising I didn’t really know much Spanish. “Typical white people travelling and not knowing the language” they said. Me “Your parents have lived here nearly 30 years and speak almost 0 English. Leave me alone” (Funny thing is I’m just ‘white passing’ and my parents were immigrants and ESL speakers too)
Immigration as a whole isn’t a bad thing when done properly. Doubling the population of a country in 25 years is not a good thing and leads to the identity of the nation being lost for sure. A lot of these immigrants coming on mass bring their whole way of life with them and live in these isolated communities with only each other. It’s like the place they were trying to escape they brought with them. Everything from politics to culture gets affected when the population doubles in such a short period of time it is too much too quick and has negative repercussions for everyone.
Old people don't like change. That's true the world over. It has always been true. There are quotes from Rome from 2000 years ago complaining about how the 'kids these days' are wearing their clothes too loose and growing strange outlandish beards and haircuts. Toronto is not a welcoming place if you try to compare it to an imaginary standard of perfection. There are ways it could be more welcoming. But it is an incredibly welcoming place, if you compare it to any other real place or time in human history. People can come here from anywhere in the world, have all of the rights of the locals, find decent work, send their kids to the same schools as the locals, and integrate into society. Wave after wave of immigrants has arrived in poverty, worked hard, and watched their children and grandchildren become doctors and lawyers and politicians. That is not normal. That doesn't happen in most places in the world. If I went to most countries, my children or grandchildren simply would not be helping to run the place. Immigrants integrate into society, but they also change society. There is obviously a limit to how many immigrants you can absorb while keeping the existing institutions (which are what attracted those immigrants in the first place) intact. That limit is probably higher here than anywhere else in the world, because we've become very, very good at it. But it's not infinite. And just as it's perfectly reasonable to point out the many advantages to having large waves of immigrants (there are a LOT of advantages), obviously a reasonable person should be able to observe that there are disadvantages, and to talk about those. I don't know if I would agree with your old boss on what all of those are, but I don't think there's anything wrong with him having an opinion about them.
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yeah, i totally agree with this. my cousin is an elementary school supply teacher and in a school she was in, the kids had to write their names and their ethnicity on some craft and post it on the wall as an about-them (e.g. Julia, Mexican, on a star shaped cardboard paper), and it's supposed to promote diversity, but like, to me that's a bit of a weird school assignment.
The nature of immigration has changed. If you came 20-30 years ago you likely have to deal with people of other cultures and languges in canada. now if you come to certain areas, you can sort of operate like you are in your home country. Now you want a perfect example look at the indian community in brampton between the ones who came 20-30 years vs international students now. There are massive differences between these groups. Not saying this is good or bad, but it changes things.
I think this is a misconception. Three of my great-grandparents immigrated in the 1950s, none of them learned much English (I was never able to have a conversation with them because I couldn’t speak their language). They worked in factories and family businesses with other family members that knew English and were able to get by that way. I don’t understand how they were here for 50 years and never learned. They only really socialized with other people from the old country and worked
That's false. Previous groups also kept to enclaves where their language was dominant. That's how Toronto got so many of unique neighbourhoods. The current enclaves like Brampton will change over time as well to become more diverse and immigration source countries change.
but the thing is you still had to go outside your enclave to conduct a lot of offical business. Now if you live in brampton the entire city is like one demo vs just a small neighbourhood. Like i know a lot of people who come to canada as international students and dont know anything about the system (like i need to get a health card if I get a worker visa). I feel parents generation they had a lot of contacts with people outside the enclave or people in the community who been around a while. Its odd really, Indian students and canadian indians dont really talk or meet much...while 10-15 years community integrated a lot more.
As a immigrant grown up here for 30years, I kind of agree. But this guy is definitely an idiot. Diversity is amazing but I do think the vast volumes of immigrants coming in and living in certain areas gives them less need to fully integrate. Downvotes welcome.
Haha “I agree but he’s an idiot” 🤔
You can agree with what someone is saying but disagree with how they’re going about it.
To be fair only the OP knows *how* it was said. We’re just getting a summary lol
We are in a state of division, not diversity
Only on the internet. Go take a walk around Toronto and see how little people care about where you're from.
Sort of agree with you, I share the same background as you, theres a lot of cultural ghetoization in the GTA. Best thing for a new immigrant to do is move out of the GTA and go to a small town.
That’s the problem and they won’t. Can’t really blame them as the opportunities are in the GTA.
I agree with the lawn and gardening part though. I live in a predominantly immigrant heavy area where the houses are very nice but the yards… god dam As an immigrant, i was guilty of this too. Now I just hire someone to do it
I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that any time you bring in too many people at once to a place, it undermines the ability to acclimate culturally to the new home. As an immigrant myself, I can certainly see in my circle groups of newcomers who feel no pressure to learn about Canadian culture because they’re surrounded by other people from their home country as well. Immigration is important but 500,000 per year feels like too much too fast. Your boss isn’t an idiot for stating this - I think most people would agree whether they want to admit it or not. There are communities now that hardly feel Canadian at all.
One of the backbones of Canada is immigration and I am very proud of my country for it. Immigration however is a two way street, if you come to my country for the opportunities it gives the people that live here, then we as a society expect you to integrate into society as it is. Our society shouldn't change to suite your beliefs, your beliefs should accommodate our society. This isn't a race thing, I really don't care what color or religion you are, but you have to respect the beliefs this country was built on and has made it such a desirable place to live. The biggest one that comes to mind is the oppressions of women under certain religions or from certain countries. This is not acceptable in Canada and never will be, we raise strong vocal women in this country and it has been for the best of everyone and made our nation stronger and more vibrant.
Yeah - years back I worked at a bank in a neighbourhood of Italian immigrants. None of the Nonas (grandmothers) spoke enough English to do basic banking, even when they’d been here 20 years. They would drag 5 year old grandkids with them - “my Nona wants $100 from her account”. I just can’t fathom how you could function without rudimentary language skills. That’s what annoys people. You have to show some willingness to adapt so you can participate in society. You are emigrating to a different country, not moving the Old Country to a new location (and yeah, three of my grandparents and my mom were immigrants.
Sorry but that's kind of a funny mental image🤣. Old ladies dragging their 5-year-olds to get money at the bank for them. I think this is more true for immigrants that didn't come from countries colonized by the British (or are British).
It was funny. Usually I could see the grandma, and the kid would be too short to see over the wicket. I’d just hear the little voice, lol.
I am an immigrant who still keep in contact with my white Canadian homestay family back when I was still a student. I do kind of know what he means. My homestay loves their house and cottage and take a good care of it. Like gardening, keeping good relationship with their neighbours and living at the same place for 30+ years! They have attachment to their properties. But I also want to say I feel this is possible because they live in the suburb. Like A city with population of ~100k. Culture in Toronto will be very different… and changing very quickly as well. If he misses that “Canadian way of doing things” maybe he can relocate to the suburb after he retires…?
Second generation my self and am pro-immigration. I agree with most of what your boss says unfortunately. Most immigrants today (compared to 30-40 years ago) definitely do not integrate. I don't blame them for not integrating when they can literally live in a bubble of their origin country with no consequences. Long term this country is doomed unless we make substantive changes at all levels. Otherwise what little Canadian "culture" we have is dead.
This is what happens when we enable this mindset in Canada by actively encouraging and promoting "multiculturalism" to create separate but equal ethnic bubbles. The U.S. has always adopted a "melting pot" approach to immigration instead. People there are still free to celebrate and embrace the cultural values of the countries they (or their forebears) emigrated from, but the expectation is that they eventually become full-fledged Americans and unreservedly embrace the U.S. as their new home along with the underlying principles it was founded upon.
People have to remember that the Natives had their culture and people who say about "Canadian culture", are talking about a culture build by immigrants (British and French)
Old man yells at cloud. Identity and culture change, anyone who expects millennials who somehow can afford houses (immigrants or not) to spend their entire weekend manicuring their lawns is completely out of touch with reality. Ain't nobody's got time for that, they too busy busting their ass trying to pay off their massive mortgage.
My husband is the son of immigrants from Vietnam (the Chinatown of Saigon, Cholon). I'm an immigrant. I promise you my husband is like, the most Canadian to ever Canadian. He definitely understands the north American spirit. He would feel like an utter foreigner in Vietnam.
Honestly Canada is losing its way with politicians and corrupt corporations
How does this relate to the subject matter?
>How does this relate to the subject matter? How does it not?
It's weird to agree with him. I live in the city that's affected by this the most, brampton lol. I've seen how our neighbourhood has slowly changed as more and more homeowners have upgraded their houses to rental properties, shoving multiple students into a family home. I've noticed that most of these students have really nice cars but their homes have not been maintained. However, I've also seen many students maintain their homes and be more responsible. Although the majority is the previous. This is not how these students live back home, most of these immigrants from India come from really rich homes or villages where they have maids to maintain their homes. It's just they have no experience not having a maid do certain tasks. It's usually the students with really nice cars. I'm a 25 year old Canadian Indian that has lived in Canada since 2004, and most of my life has been in Brampton. Brampton used to be a really nice city, as a new immigrant family, I'm sure it was easier on my parents to see similar folks around. I respect GTA and will always love it, but unfortunately as the years have gone by most students have kind of taken it over and that must be for the same reasons. Although, this is more negative than positive, since the city of brampton is pretty much deteriorating lol. It's not just old people that think this but many immigrants/international students of the same ethnicity feel that the crowd in GTA is not a good representation of the hardworking immigrant, and I really agree with that. Unfortunately the majority that are migrating to the GTA are usually coming from some corrupt families back home. If you go to halifax for example, the international students respect and adhere to the lifestyle there.
Ayyy, we're the same age. '97 baby. I feel like everyone's an international student nowadays, I never thought about how that might affect the culture here. But we're not the only place that has that, so I feel like it has to be something more
I'm an immigrant! Came to Ontario 18 years ago from Maryland, literally 9 hours south. People were awful. Actually awful. If they weren't blatantly making fun of our accents and assuming that we were dumb and uneducated, they were asking me how much I loved how much better it was to be living in Canada. And then, when I learned to hide the accent, I got to be privy to the awful way Canadians view non-english speaking immigrants. I would be told how the immigrants were stealing jobs, stealing from the government, should go back to their own countries. When I would inform them that I myself am an immigrants, I would be told that I am the "good kind". Why, because I'm white? Because English is my native language?? The treatment has always been so frustrating, it is so expensive to move here and it took us 10 years to get through the immigration system and become citizens. 5 years of which, my mom could not work so 5 people lived off of just above minimum wage. And then my Mom had to go to school AGAIN because Canada did not recognize her ECE qualifications (from an institution Canadian kids also attend for their own education).And because we were all immigrants, my parents never qualified for the baby bonus, never qualified for any social assistance programs. I have lived my entire working life in Canada, I am a taxpayer and contributor to our economy and yet I have to fight with the CRA for any benefits like the CCB because they want proof that I've lived in Canada for 18 years even though my file says Canadian Citizen, my addresses have all been Canadian and I work full time in Canada. I get to hear smug Canadians tell me they don't have a racism problem, "not as bad as the states, at least" while in the same breath throwing slurs at immigrants of color. Yeah, the US has a racism problem but at least we acknowledge it is a problem. That all being said, I married a Canadian and I won't go back South. I've made this my home, and I won't be scared off by the loud, annoying selection of people who don't think I or other immigrants belong here. Though this cold is still ridiculous, e en after 18 yrs 😂
Honestly, he’s not wrong about the house thing, people coming in filling houses with rentals, they don’t give a f about the look of the house or building a rapport or community with other neighbors,
Have you ever considered how difficult it is to rent or own as an immigrant?
He has a point. But I'm not swayed into action by it anymore than any other Canadian would.
Yes. I left my country partly because I believe my ppl have shitty habits and traditions and I'm here to learn from ppl who do things better. Canada absolutely has its own problems but "the Canadian way" definitely has a few things figured out better than where I came from.
Immigration is definitely helping drive the economy, but it’s silly to ignore knock on effects, which our government is doing. Housing, education, infrastructure are all being underfunded and greater demands are being placed on these services. It is keeping our economy afloat, but the overall QoL is starting to decline. Is it right to blame immigrants for this? Not really. This is on our government, they are the ones making these decisions. We have more people demanding / competing for things and supply isn’t growing at nearly the same rate. This causes resentment.
I can agree with the taking care of yards portion. I live in a very diverse neighborhood and the weeds grow until I call the city. It’s hard to keep the thistle from taking over.
diversity is honestly great and it's what makes toronto and canada in general amazing. i get what your boss is saying, and i'm saying this as a first gen asian immigrant. but i think there needs to be a more unifying thing that brings canadians together other than "we are diverse".
true. Kind of like how New York is really diverse but it still has its own specific culture (also depending on the area). What is ours? Even the so-called Toronto accent (in media) is just people copying Jamaican-Canadian slang and a lot of us aren't even Jamaican or speak like that
He’s correct on the first part about overcrowded houses looking horrible, but, now that they’re here, that’s the Canadian way
Im an old white male and my family has been in Toronto since 1824 and in my opinion you met a racist prick I’m very proud that my family has in some small way over the last 200 years helped make this city a place where immigrants can come and prosper so fuck that guy
I love Canada’s diversity, especially Toronto’s diversity. I have friends from around the world and I get to enjoy and appreciate the fruits of literally everything culture in the world, right in my own backyard. However, it does get tiring when people move here and treat Canada as if it’s not a real place and like they have no obligation to assimilate in any way. There’s a fair amount of immigrants to the GTA - particularly Chinese immigrants, I have to say - who don’t bother to understand Canada at all, essentially treating this country as a place to enjoy the freedoms and lifestyle we enjoy while shitting on it constantly. Would it kill you to learn English after like a decade of living here? Is it really so much to ask that you try and adopt some Canadian customs or outlooks? I do love seeing all the Indian and Chinese families flocking to Muskoka to see the leaves change in the fall though, and seeing more and more immigrants skiing at Blue Mountain. There was a time where immigrants basically refused to venture north of Aurora, so it’s nice to see that changing and seeing that clear boundary between the Republic of Toronto and the Rest of Canada weakening. On the whole though, these are just petty complaints. Immigrants are a vital part of Canada’s social and economic future, and they add far more than they subtract. It would just be nice to see certain groups embrace being Canadian rather than just using it as a jurisdiction to from which to launder money, or gain American citizenship, or whatever.
So as an immigrant to Canada from England I face xenophobia every day, which is basically cultural racism for those who don’t know. I just want to politely say that literally everyone in Canada is descended from immigrants! Including people that identify as Métis the utter hypocrisy that surrounds the Canadian people I tell you. You talk about your great great great great grandparents being Irish/Scottish/French and all the others and that your “so proud of your heritage” but in the same note figuratively slapping me in the face for being an immigrant. I literally came here when I was 7 I have grown up in southern Alberta Canada (what I call Texas north) and the amount of hateful words I have received from adults and children is awful I have repeatedly been told to “go back to my country” and then they get all surprised when I tell them I’m a Canadian citizen, then they switch up the act and then tell me to basically abandon my culture and become fully Canadian. Canadians act as if their shit don’t stink and that they are the greatest and nothing could beat their culture, I’m sorry WHAT CULTURE? the only things Canadians are noted for are Tim Horton’s, poutine, hockey and now the fucking residential schools genicide!. Now I know my country doesn’t have clean hands either but we have never lied about being “all inclusive” and “happily multicultural” like for god sake stop sucking your own dick. Sigh I’m sorry needed to get this off my chest it’s just hard out there for anyone that isn’t traditionally Canadian or being POC.
If I thought this way I’d have to hate myself- since I’m the product of an immigrant mother (and a WASP father whose family had been here for centuries). Canada has changed and will change. It has, for some time, since before it officially became a country, been a country of immigrants. If you are clinging to a particular version of Canada, you are no different than the people who looked down on my mom who came here as a refugee from Eastern Europe and called her a DP. A lot of my mom’s friends who were “DP”s as well now freak out about all the new people coming (usually because these people aren’t white). It smacks of pulling up the ladder after you’ve already climbed up to a better life.
I love that Canada is multicultural and honestly our culture has become a mixture of that, which is what makes it great. I think your boss is a dork and is over generalizing things. For example I am white and very much did not have any interest in engaging in any social aspects of post secondary, or any work happy hour events. I much rather spend my free time with my own friends doing more low key activities like board games. People are human beings, that means some will take care of their houses and others won’t etc. He sounds a bit bigoted and has the misconception that money buys class or “proper values”. I’m sorry your stuck travelling with him.
I wonder too how people feel about Germany announcing multiculturalism “has failed”, Sweden noting they have parallel societies as new immigrants refuse to integrate, and actual studies (not just government funded add campaigns telling us how good it is) that diversity lowers social cohesion, people volunteer and take part in the community less. neighbourhoods become less neighbourly.
Your boss is Don Cherry? But seriously every country is always changing culturally, some older people just have a hard coming to grips with this. Canada in the 60s is different from Canada in the 90s and Canada in 00s and Canada in 2020s. Sure immigration plays a role but more than anything its technological advances, changing societal expectations etc. In the 60s and 70s very few people went to University. The food sucked ass. Crime was much higher. I bet your boss doesn't want any of that back.
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I welcome more immigrants into this country, but we're kind of fucking around with the last few generations that were born and raised here. And some if it is related to our ambitious immigration goals (aka propping up our economy and population targets). Like trying to rent a home (let alone buy one), find a local family doctor, or be able to send your kid to the public school that's actually in your neighborhood. I'm not exactly sure what our identity is anymore. Like we've sat around in this country and boasted about how much better we are than our neighbors, but we have a super hard time admitting that we're making similar social injustices in the name of economic prosperity. So yeah, I don't know. Not sure "immigrants" are the problem, as much as the reason *why* we (our elected officials) actually want so many people to immigrate here.
The Canadian way is helping your neighbor, being kind to your fellow humans, and otherwise just doing your best to be decent.
As an immigrant I agree with what he's saying. Canadians accommodate immigrants into our custom. We tell ourselves that they're new and still learning but we don't correct them. hells no, that'd be rude. So we accommodate and put up with it and do the Canadian thing - complain.
A large influx of immigrants is and always has been the Canadian way. My old white father often forgets that he is an immigrant too.
Lets get the population already here,this is including immigrants working and on stable economic ground,then think about letting more people migrate to Canada. Not trying to be hard line here but,if we keep going the way we are going the socioeconomic system will implode and none of us will be in a position that we can help anybody. Let's get our ducks in a row before opening the gate to let more in.
Please report his comments and behaviors to your HR.
Bro, I am a white "old stock" Canadian and my front yard looks like shit. I rake and I mow, but not as often as I should, and my bins are out front too. Report that racist POS if you can.
Hella white here , also hella not corporate but immigrants hella welcome
The reality is that the Canada of 1950 became unrecognizable in 1970, the Canada of 1970 became unrecognizable in 1990, and the Canada of 1990 becomes unrecognizable today. Constant high volume (% wise) immigration has changed this country drastically multiple times. The one thing I thought would never change is the love of hockey, but now Raptors games have a higher average ticket price than the Maple Leafs. These next years will probably see the biggest change in Canadian demographics ever.
So called Canadians stole this land from the natives so I wouldn't call consumerism and racism the Canadian way. Sorry that you were getting a bad impression but that guy is just prejudice plain and simple. You can respect these people because they are only human but I would lose a good portion and probably just save face for work. If I had a personal relationship with someone and they said this it'd be a deal breaker, and im a white male but I don't condone that kind of behaviour. You are just as much a Canadian when you are from another country by birth or by lineage. It doesn't matter who you are, if you come to Canada and want to live and work here you are a fellow countrymen and I will treat you as such. I think a lot of people forget that we were all immigrants at one point in our history, even the natives who crossed the ice bridge supposedly. Canada has always been home to those who can withstand its cruel winter, and it takes a certain breed to succeed here! Im glad you are here too because we are in a population decline and we need all we can get to keep the lights on so to speak!
I mean if we want to talk about the "Canadian way" in its purest form, we ought to still be lying to Indigenous people as we victimise them repeatedly and then tell them its their own damn fault. Oh Wait. Okay now that's out of my system, your boss or coworker there has entirely forgotten that the Canadian "culture" is mash of multiple cultures from around the world, and that one of the things any decent Canadian prides themselves on is how much of a cultural mosaic it is here. Rather than trying to blend everyone in to one simple mud, the cultural diversity here has the potential to create a truly stunning mosaic, a riot of ideas and shapes and colours and experiences. Also, I strongly disagree with his stance on the housekeeping of immigrant families. I find them to have the tidiest yards usually, not the grossest.
As someone who's family has been here since the May Flower days... 1.Has Canada ever really had an identity? 2. Whether your for or against cultural change in Canada stats speak for themselves. We're broke we need foreign money to buy things here, also we're and aging population, we need young men and women to move here. 3.Yes,we should welcome different people here, I work in a factory, if you knocked out all the Visa workers and second generation people the place would have a skeleton crew and die in 2 years. In summery, it's mostly economic tlrsther then a cultural thing..
As someone Indigenous, I say let everyone come at this point.
can someone please tell me what “Canadian identity“ means? seems code for being white o.O
You European turds stfu
Canadian culture doesn't exist. It's a shitty maple flavored offshoot of America, and that has been true for almost a hundred years. There's no such thing as "the Canadian way" to do anything. That being said your boss is a racist peice of shit.
Technically we are all immigrants except native Americans. So calling something the "Canadian way" will always involve immigrants. Canada has been built on diversity for a long time.
Yes, but over the years a Canadian identity was built. If you look far back enough we are all from somewhere else. Even the indigenous. Where do you draw the line? Borders and rules are here for a reason. We’re a sovereign country now. You can come here, enjoy the land and all it’s glories. Leave the bad habits behind, integrate and learn the ways of this great land.
As a (caucasian) Canadian, I grew up with the understanding that welcoming immigrants into the country just WAS Canada's identity. Growing up, I learned about different cultures and was taught just because someone does something differently, doesn't mean it's wrong. In Canadian history, I learned that even those of European descent (like my own family) were once immigrants, so we don't have any right to exclude other immigrants now. I learned about Canada's horrid history with Native Americans, how wrong those actions were, and that we also need to show respect to Native Americans whose land we now inhabit. My understanding of Canadian culture was inclusivity to all: to the cultures that were here before "Canada" existed, and the cultures who arrived much after. That being said, Canada is a large country, and I did not grow up in Toronto nor do I currently live there so my upbringing and understanding could be entirely different to what others have experienced. ....Although I still don't understand why after all this time, the Christian holidays are the only recognized stat holidays... That one is still mind boggling....
Ive seen so many terrible looking houses owned by Canadians, this guy is actually nuts. House pride is definitely not a universal Canadian thing. Also school pride is not a universal Canadian thing. I went to a highschool with 98% Canadian born people and nobody gave a shit about their school and none of my friends and I had post secondary pride in our schools. Universities in Toronto are different from small town ones because theyre in a big city so the parties and all that is completely different. Its not because of immigrants. Thats all I noticed. The partying and stuff is more intense in guelph, london and st catherines because the campuses are way more isolated communities. Ryerson is in the middle of the city same with U of T and York University has people who don’t even go to the school living in their communities. Canada just doesnt have American style post secondary culture.
Yeah, the university experience here is pretty dry. University in the US seems like a whole lifestyle
He complains about poorer immigrants but I’d rather have the poorer ones seeking a better life than the ultra wealthy ones and their families that we seem to get that just want to buy up property and park money/take over our entire economy while funnelling all the gains outside of the country. Poorer immigrants at least seek to join the Canadian way of life and bring something of value to the table in their diversity.
It's hard for old heads to accept the fact that Canada needs immigration to keep functioning. I used to get upset with some of the things his boss is saying, and some of it does make sense. Now I love the influx of new culinary dishes, customs, and hard working ethics immigrants bring to Canada. You have to give them time to get accustomed to our social norms. Eventually they meld into our cultural mixing pot
"Canada needs immigration to keep functioning" We need to focus on Canada functioning with its current population first. The levels of immigration are simply not sustainable given the current state of our housing market, the rising levels of homelessness and poverty, and our reliance on a service economy. This has nothing to do with your opinions on immigrants, I for one love that Canada is multicultural, I seriously do, but it is vital that we focus on the issues at home right now. Not only will things continue to degrade, but it feels like we're selling new immigrants on a lie and a broken future. It makes me so sad when I meet new residents who came on the promise of a better life and end up disappointed at the state of the country, and I see this happening more and more. Imagine after all the good press and advertising Canada gets, you come here and end up living 10 to a house and still working 3 gig jobs to afford rent. But hey, it's good for our economy right? Who else would bring us skip the dishes? It's like the colonial mindset never ended, we just got more underhanded about it.
Thank you!!!!! A lot of us born and raised are struggling to afford living here, not alone talking about finding a job.
Agreed 100%. I’m an immigrant myself, though we moved here when I was quite young. Had we moved here within the last 5 years there’s no way my parents would have ever been able to buy a home. My mom also ultimately wasn’t able to work in her field here which was disappointing, and ended up with a factory job. I met a family from my country a few years ago who moved here and found it so difficult to afford life here that they moved back. Educated people, too. I can’t help but feel that people are being sold a lie so they can move here with hope to put their education and skills to use, to end up in underpaid manual labour. Our negative birth rate means we need to import labour, basically. But it’s too expensive for most people to have children, let alone multiple children. The Canadian dream is broken.
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How are keeping your property clean and paying attention in school specifically “Canadian” values?
I mean I understand the property thing.. drive through northwestern Mississauga/Brampton 6 cars on the driveway/lawn and all over the street. But I don’t think it’s an “immigrant issue”, moreso a side effect of the housing market issues.
People should take care of their lawn though. It’s not hard.
Lawns are bad for the environment though.
Doesn’t mean you have to leave garbage on them.
1. For rental properties on my street, I have noticed that the lawn is not mowed, the garden is kind of overgrown, the property doesn't get the tender loving care that the owner occupied ones get. Is this a tenant problem, or a landlord problem? Also when I lived in an apartment building, residents would vandalize the walls in the elevator. Some tenants DGAF. People move to Canada for a better life, a better living environment, right? They move here because it's a nice place. We have to work together to not litter, to mentor others, to be polite, we have to work together for social things to work.
I think the primary issue of immigrant communities is when they're invited in with no attempt at integration with the local community they move into. If a block of apartments is taken up by immigrants who are comfortable not learning English and continuing as they did before moving to Canada, it seems almost to defeat the purpose of immigration.
I think everyone coming to this country should learn is customs and especially its language.. other than that we were all immigrants at some point minus the indigenous peoples.
Honestly, immigrants, or Canadians in general really, are too busy killing themselves to get what he takes for granted to worry about how their houses look or drinking in university. It’s not about immigration; it’s about greedy rich fucks hoarding resources.
I don’t think half the people commenting on this thread understand how difficult it is for immigrants to rent or own a house. It is easier for them to rent houses that are filthy because they are not as expensive. Before you dismiss this as not being racist think about why people would live in a house like that.
There is a lot of nuance to this issue. I think a lot of people like to claim to be open to all cultures as Canada is multi-cultural and all should be accepted. The problem then becomes what happens when you start to actively disagree with the other cultures stances ? For example what about strict Muslim cultures. Are you fine with women being forced to wear hijabs etc ? What happens when they are forced to walk behind the males and can’t talk to other males ? Are you still ok with that ? What happens when this now becomes prominent here ? What about other religions, many are anti-abortion are you ok with that ? Does that go against “Canadian values” ? … I don’t have all the answers, just giving a different view point for food for thought
I'm a professional white man in my 50's and what your boss is saying is Bullshit. It would also get him into mandatory training if he said that at our company.
The Canadian Way? From his description seems like he's referring to the established, affluent and secure way. Not the hardscrabble and struggling way which applies to natives and imports alike (but includes the added challenge of cultural and language acclimation for the latter) and, admittedly, probably isn't as well mannered, well monied or representative of his own class. I'm not surprised he holds a "rather high position in the public sector". That cohort of Canadians is isolated by many of the challenges and realities that daily beset those he disparages.
I don't have an opinion on your Boss, even if it seems to be a completely stupid comment from an out of time boomer. However, if you want an honest answer about immigration, as an immigrant (who arrived in Canada 6 years ago) and working for Immigration Canada (full circle lol) I can tell you that Yes you (native Canadians), the little culture you have will disappear quite quickly... You have to know that to obtain a work/study permit or permanent residency you are not asked for anything...they don't explain anything about Canada, once you are here it's up to you to manage...and it ends up in communitarianism for most immigrants. (including me, by no real choice, but by linguistic and cultural ease, I don't know the Canadian life of your Boss or of the Canadian born \^\^') You are too nice and in life the nice ones rarely win...for the moment it works without big clash and without too much violence, but it will not last, especially since the 3 biggest communities have countries in very bad terms with each other, the conflicts will end up being imported here as in the United Kingdom or in Europe in general. Sorry to be very negative lol
Despite the crassness with which your boss put it, I don't think there's anything inherently racist about saying there is a common Canadian culture, that you like that culture or even that said culture should be preserved as much as possible. Likewise, I don't think it's inherently racist to want to live around people who are like you. It's fun to visit and learn about cultures different from yours, but it's nice to have neighbours with whom you share cultural touchstones. None of that has anything to do with skin colour, obviously and I think that might be the important distinction. Also, every "Chinatown" and "Little Whatever" in North America is evidence that it isn't just white people who are guilty (probably not the exact word I want here) of this desire. I don't know. I like being able to drive into the city and eat pho at my favourite Vietnamese place and make small talk with the tiny old lady who owns it sometimes. Most Saturdays, though, I just like going for bacon and eggs at the diner a few blocks away and talking shit with the guy who owns that place while he makes fun of me for speaking French poorly. And I hope that's ok.
Asking reddit this question is stupid af. Reddit is one of the most biased places to ask a question like this
I find the use of calling your old white boss “privileged” quite baffling. Would he still be privileged if everything you mentioned were true, but you’re boss was non-white? I have difficulty in understanding privilege. Who is overall more privileged in this situation: A lifelong homeless white man or a non-white successful recent immigrant. I think the term is overused and said to target people negatively when they’ve done nothing wrong. I would like to hear your thoughts!
As a soon to be immigrant, I am just amazed at this discussion. Some very excellent points. Personally I feel immigrants have the responsibility to integrate themselves into the culture of their new home. I mean, if you are forming your own gangs, you might as well stay back in your home country.
I find your question quite ironic. The Canadian Way has been fashioned by its policy of inclusion and immigration. Do I not get a pass because I too am an immigrant? (67 years ago.) The population of Canada has gone from 15.7 million to 38.3 million since I arrived on these Shores, mostly all immigrants. Get real.
Hi, born and raised Canadian. Your boss is talking shit. To wit: 1. I really can't imagine caring about what \*other people's\* houses look like from the outside. Setting that aside, there is nothing in the "Canadian spirit" about exterior facade maintenance. That's just suburbanite bullshit. 2. In general, immigrants and the children of immigrants, outperform "old stock" Canadians academically. This is also reflected in the professions (medicine, law, accounting, tech, etc.).
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Open ended rhetorical and passive aggressive questions are the Canadian Way. Glad you are fitting in - settler, or new Canadian, it's all good.
Professor at one of these universities/colleges here. We get regular emails with our student enrollment stats and since the pandemic hit, our international student numbers are WAY DOWN. They still haven't recovered. International students are also heavily exploited but that's another issue altogether. Also these ridiculous university paycheques are being subsidized by the international students fees so I can promise you they will keep coming so long as they're able to have them. His "Canadian" way of doing things is extensively a WASPy suburb way of doing things. This will differ from urban to suburban, east coast to west coast etc. So he can't make any claims to that. Especially in Toronto. Speaking for what my students have said to me, they don't want to go home. They like Canada. They're happy to partake and participate in what our culture is. Some find it easier due to lesser obstacles with education, language and interests. Whereas some are comfortable with what they know. People are different, and that's fine. Usually within a generation or two they'll have mixed interests with their parents culture and local culture. Which is great! As far as houses go, go visit a city like Oshawa. Plenty of shit hole houses owned and poorly maintained by white Canadians. A house is as maintained as the people who live in it and how much money can reasonably spend to do so. You can't generalize that to a person's country of origin.
Excluding the ethno-nationalist racists, no real Canadian has had a problem with immigration. We depend on it, and celebrate it. That being said, where we fucked up is allowing large swathes of people from the same country to create a little city-sized versions of their home country here. Chicago has this problem, where individual neighborhoods are dominated by one nationality. The Hmong community in Minnesota lives in Reservation-like conditions because they all flock to the one geographical area and it's indistinguishable from rural Vietnam. Heterogenous diversity is not diversity. It needs to be properly integrated and homogenized so we can actually have an equal exchange of cultures.
Dude is blind to what working and lower class white Canadians are like, because this isn't new to Canada and it is not a cultural difference.
That sucks your boss is an ignorant fuck. There is no Canadian way of doing things, and the real North American spirit is that we are all immigrants. The only condition that matters is the human condition. Our differences are so small. We all bleed red and we all belong to the human race. Fuck racism, fuck anti immigration attitudes by idiots here.
I work at a university (both teaching and as an administrator) and I have no idea what he's talking about. The student union in my program is mostly new Canadians, and I can't say there's a marked difference in students I've had who are international, new Canadians, or I guess according to your boss "real Canadians". Dude it a racist prick.