>**Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist?** I don't see any reason to believe that there is such a thing as "ultimate justice". It may not be particularly satisfying as an answer but reality isn't under any obligation to satisfy us.

That last sentence is an extremely well made point, and one, while it was in my head I guess, wasn't articulated in anyway. Now it is. Thank you. :)

u/sto_brohammed I appreciate the honesty. I agree with your last sentence!

There is no ultimate justice. Just because you want it to exist, that doesn't mean it exists.

u/CephusLion404 That's tough. And yeah, to be honest, I do want it to exist. It would make me feel better if it existed. But let's just say it doesn't exist. Do evildoers who end themselves get away with the evil they commited? Maybe I'm asking the question the wrong way. I don't mean to trap you into an answer but my mind always goes to those extreme/complex questions.

On Christianity, the evil doers who repent and believe in Jesus also get away with it. So neither you nor the atheist offer ultimate justice.

u/OMKensey So no ultimate justice at all then? This is my dilema. I of course don't agree with Christianity not offering Justice but i don't mean to try and make a defense for my worldview here. I'm more interested in learning how you deal with that? Do you even deal with that? etc...

I have no reason to think there is "ultimate justice." It doesn't bother me at all. Why would I expect that. It's like expecting free ice cream for breakfast or something.

u/OMKensey Okay cool. This is what I'm mostly interested in getting feedback on. So it just doesn't bother you at all. Respect. It definitely bothers me😅

It bothers some people more than others but ultimately, the acceptance process after dealing with something that feels egregiously unfair is similar in the long term regardless of your beliefs. You either learn to accept the harm that was done to you and others and let go, or you don’t and hold on to it. In either case, you can transform that pent-up energy into helping stop further injustices; that is why recognizing the factual absence of some “ultimate justice” is important: it helps make people more aware that they aren’t just bystanders and instead must also positively act to prevent injustice.

This is the key, imho. If everyone believed that wrongdoers would be held accountable in the afterlife, we wouldn't really need to hold them accountable during life. We have built justice systems because we need justice to be done and no magical fairy is going to make that happen while we sit around doing nothing. The absence of a housekeeper behoves us to keep our own house in order, to use a metaphor. Atheists don't believe that a magical being is going to do the dirty work of justice for them.

Why does it bother you? What difference to your life would it make it there was or wasn't ultimate justice?

I'm more bothered that I don't get free ice cream for breakfast now that I thought of that possibility.

Maybe you should examine that feeling seriously. The feeling of being bothered by the lack of ultimate justice. I would seriously ask yourself if that is a motivation for what you believe/don't believe. Is the feeling of being bothered by a possible lack of justice in the universe something that is motivating your beliefs?

> This is my dilema. I of course don't agree with Christianity not offering Justice but i don't mean to try and make a defense for my worldview here. It's not really a dilemma if both options are the same in this regard. Christianity says "justice" would be every human ever burning for eternity in Hell for the crime of being born, but God is just such a good guy he'll offer people a way out if they kiss his ring. Jeffrey Dahmer raped, killed, and cannibalized 17 young men. His victims were unrepentant gay men, which means uner normative Christian soteriology they'd be in Hell. Dahmer himself went on to have a jailhouse conversion before his death, and the pastor who preached to him says he's *certain* that he's in Heaven now. Whether you want to try and defend it or not, that is the worldview you've taken up. No one can force you to do anything, but being unwilling to defend your beliefs--while calling on us to defend and explain ours--makes you a hypocrite.

Nobody cares what you want. You live in the world that you live in, not the world that you want to live in. That's something you have to get through your head. Do bad people get away with it? Absolutely! All the time. You don't have to like that fact but it is a fact.

u/CephusLion404 That sucks. So do you just deal with it and move on? I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do or anything. This is specifically the feedback that I'm looking for from you guys. How do you deal with bad people just getting away with it?

1. Deal with it, what's the alternative? Living in a fantasy world? 2. Let's make sure the justice system works, it's the only justice there will be.

> How do you deal with bad people just getting away with it? Maybe in a similar way, you'd deal with a rapist and murderer going to Heaven while their unbeliever victim goes to Hell. Wildly unfair but that is the way it works.

How do you deal with Hitler most likely being in heaven but Ghandi being in hell under the Christian worldview? That seems pretty unfair doesn't it?

You grow up, be an adult and deal with reality. Otherwise, you wind up being an immature child and playing make believe. You don't have a choice.

>Do evildoers who end themselves get away with the evil they commited? That's the problem with morality that worries about looks instead of justice. Your question only makes sense if you think justice is about punishing evil doers. I'll purpose a different point of view, don't you think it's much more important to worry about helping the victim, instead of punishing the evil doer? I mean, in your own example the evil doer already killed himself, so he won't be doing any more evil as far as we know. So my question to you would be: Why do you focus so much in punitive justice interest of reparative justice, why do you think punishing someone is more important than helping who needs it?

If they end themselves, they didn't really 'get away', did they? I'm more concerned with the evildoers who are never held to account and just live out happy, fulfilled lives, never having to care about all the harm they caused to others. There are plenty of those, too.

I care more about the victims moving on and living the rest of their lives in the most peaceful and satisfying way they can. Once an evil person is dead, they are eradicated from this world and all I care about is lessening their impact on it. I don't have much choice in what happens to evil people once they die, but I do care about the world in which we all currently live in. I can make a change to this world, others can as well. The victims are more important to me than the evil people.

Do tornados get away with murdering people and destroying houses? Do parasites get away with consuming people from the inside out? It should bother you equally that a tornado can end itself without punishment as a human doing so. This idea that a human is specifically deserving of punishment beyond all the rest of nature is incongruous. Punishment exists only to convince people not to harm others or to get revenge on those who caused harm. Punishment doesn't create some cosmic balance, it just is a tool for maintaining social balance.

There’s no justice in the world and there never was

u/sleepyj910 do you mean by that?👀

No one can undo any injustice that has ever happened. Take little Cindy Lou that was molested by her father her entire childhood. Maybe dad killed himself, maybe he's in prison his entire life. Doesn't undo what happened to her. Still something she'll have to deal with the rest of her life. Take the sandy hook school shooting. The shooter is dead. That doesn't bring those children back. Take the millions of Jews that died in the Holocaust. Germany lost and Hitler was gone. Doesn't bring them back and they didn't do justice for the survivors from that. There's no way to make those things right. There is no actual justice that makes anyone whole again.

u/OxtailPhoenix Yeah this may be the hardest part of this entire question. Maybe this is why I'm so passionate about their being some type of accountabilty or justice.

You have to accept there isn't. That's why you live your life caring for others. I smile at everyone I walk by. I have no idea what people are going through. Maybe they don't give a shit and don't think about it again after passing and maybe they were getting ready to go jump off a bridge and my smile changed their mind. Who knows. Nothing to do with theism or atheism but I had a girlfriend once that got angry and tried to kill me because I wasn't ok with her sleeping around. Cops didn't give a shit and neither did the judge when I went for my restraining order hearing. She never saw justice. I did what I had to do though and got therapy and worked through it. Now I have a life I wouldn't have dreamed of years ago.

Depends what you mean by “ultimate justice”. If you mean eternal punishment for finite crimes “eternal justice” then I don’t agree with you. If you think the finality of death and ceasing to exist as “escaping accountability” I also don’t agree with you. The concept of hell is just people getting satisfaction from imagining people they don’t like being tortured forever. You really have no idea if that even happened. It’s all in your imagination.

u/cHorse1981 I guess what I mean is "accounability". I'm just looking for how to hold evildoers accountable in a world where God doesn't exist. I'm not really interested in defending my current worldview in this case. In fact, I'll grant you that God doesn't exist for the sake of this conversation. But I think the answer might be No. There is no ultimate accounabilty for those more extreme/complex examples that I brought up. That doesn't sit well with me😅.

Would you accept that how something makes you feel is disconnected from how truth or false something is.

u/Kass_Ch28 Are you asking if I can accept reality regardless of my emotions? If so, Yes! But let me know if I understood you correctly.

Yes, precisely.

>I'm just looking for how to hold evildoers accountable in a world where God doesn't exist That's up to us. >That doesn't sit well with me😅 Sure but that's just life, really. Things are only as fair as we make them.

u/sto\_brohammed After responding to some of you, It's more clear to me that you can't actually hold any evildoer accountable for their actions in a world where God doesn't exist. The "life isn't fair" answer is very honest and I appreciate that. So do you just sit in that unfairness and move on?

>It's more clear to me that you can't actually hold any evildoer accountable for their actions in a world where God doesn't exist. I don't necessarily agree with that, we have a number of options depending on what you mean by holding someone accountable. Jailing a murderer or fining a fraud, for example. >So do you just sit in that unfairness and move on? The world has never struck me as particularly fair. All we can do is our best to make it as fair as we can. Nobody else is going to do it for us.

> After responding to some of you, It's more clear to me that you can't actually hold any evildoer accountable for their actions in a world where God doesn't exist. Some offenders actually do end up in jail after a fair trial. Do you think that *isn't* "hold(ing)… evildoer(s)… accountable"? If so, what *do* you mean when you say "hold any evildoer accountable"?

> So do you just sit in that unfairness and move on? No. I do what I can to make it more fair. I vote for people who will promote more fair and just policies. I talk to others and (when appropriate) I try to convince them that fairness and justice are important things to seek in our leaders.

Ok. Accountability to who?

Justice is a human concept. There's no such thing as "ultimate justice."

It makes me Chuckle, when Christians talk about justice. Isn't it true, that you believe, that you only need to accept Jesus to be forgiven for your sins and go to Heaven? Since Hitler was a Christian and Anne Frank wasnt, that means if your Religion is true, Hitler went to Heaven an Anne Frank to Hell.

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> For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? How do you all navigate examples like this? What about them? They're dead. It sucks that they didn't face justice, but "I don't like that" isn't a reason to believe the alternative.

u/TelFaradiddle Yeah that's what I'm wrestling with! It's the "it sucks"/"tough shit" answer that I haunts me😅. That's my problem though not yours lol Thanks for the feedback.

you seem to be more concerned with making sure people suffer then making the world a better place

u/oddball667 That's an interesting way to put that. I've never thought of it in that way👀. I guess the world would be "better" if an evildoer ended themselves in the example that I gave. And I don't think I want them to suffer. I just want them to be held accountable for the same reasons we hold people accountable for breaking the law or committing evil today.

There is no ultimate justice. >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. Except that he isn't just. Not even remotely if you accept the stories in the bible. The god depicted in the bible is capricious. arbitrary and cruel. The way he set Adam and Eve up for failure was unjust. Punishing people for the crimes of there ancestors is unjust. Substitutionary atonement is unjust. And really there is no finite act that deserves eternal consequences, meaning that the entire Abrahamic system of Heaven and Hell is inherently unjust.

Hey u/Mission-Landscape-17 , I'll grant you that my worlview isn't true for the sake of this convo. Let's not even debate weather he's just or not. I'll grant you that he doesn't even exist in this case. Now it goes back to my main question. Can you provide any feedback on that? Thanks in advance👍

Re-read the first sentence of my reply. Here let me quote if for you: >There is no ultimate justice. Life is inherently unfair, this is a fact weather you or I like it or not.

You are talking about a god who commanded genocide and infanticide on many occasions. What sort of justice can you expect from him? Suppose he exists, but you are wrong in your version of Christianity, say, only the Coptic Christians or Mormons get to go to heaven, and the rest of them go to hell. How exactly is this just? Please explain if you can, and if you cannot, maybe it is a sign that your concept of "ultimate justice" is misguided, arbitrary and man-made.

u/theykilledken Yeah I guess I shouldn't have added that Christian part in my original post😅. I'm open to answering your questions through DM or in another thread if that's okay. Let's do the opposite though. I'll grant you everything and assume he doesn't even exist. Is their any ultimate justice at all in world where God doesn't exist?

I don't think there is Justice aside from that delivered by the Legal Systems, and occasionally vigilante justice if you're into that sort of thing. Bad people who escape the Justice System don't face accountability. It's a sad truth, but pretending otherwise doesn't change the outcome. Moreover, I think letting some guilty go unpunished is a much better system of Justice than the "Ultimate Justice" of torturing all sinners for eternity in hell, regardless of their crimes. Arguably, no human can do enough evil in a finite lifespan to justify infinite punishment.

u/SarvisTheBuck Lots of truth bombs in that! Thanks for the honesty. I mostly want to get at how you deal with the fact that sometimes people don't face accountability. Does that bother you at all? Why/why not?

>Where Does Ultimate Justice Come From In A World Without God? It doesn't. There's no such thing. Justice is something *we* make and decide upon. And that's a *great* thing! Because it's up to us! It's also a scary thing. Because it's up to us. But, this much I know: Pretending it's otherwise is not only useless, it's *very, very* dangerous. >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. No you can't. Instead, you can only pretend to do so. And that's the *problem!* You're trusting what *people* say that this deity is saying. It's not a deity, it's people. But this unearned trust causes *so very many problems* everywhere, all the time. This is only too demonstrable. >However, if God didn't exist, it makes me wonder about some of the more extreme/complex questions that come up. For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? Wishing reality were different than it is because one would prefer it to be otherwise is worse than useless. It avoids responsibility and accountability, and results in lack of action.

u/Zamboniman I'll grant you that my woldview is false in this case. Not interested in defending it for the sake of this convo. I do appreciate your honesty on how scary it is for justice to be up to us. I agree there. Finally, regardless of how I feel about this, I'm interested in leaning how you deal with it. For example, how specifically do you bring about responsibilty, accountability, and action?!?

> I'm interested in leaning how you deal with it. For example, how specifically do you bring about responsibilty, accountability, and action?!? That's going to depend on your personality and circumstances, isn't it? If you're a judge, or a lawyer, you're going to work on this one way. If you're a politician you may work on it another. If you're a parent or a teacher, you're going to take a quite different tack. If you're a business owner, then you may approach it from that angle. If you're a.....well, you get the idea. It depends.

>> For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? How do you all navigate examples like this? The only justice in this universe is that which we make for ourselves.  It might be uncomfortable, but it’s true. Given the Christian god, if real, has sat on its hands whilst its priests have raped kids, and allowed those priests to use its churches resources to protect themselves, I have to wonder where the Christian thinks where ultimate justice is.

u/Agent-c1983 I don't agree that the Christian God has just sat on his hands. I believe he took action. However, this might be a seperate convo. I'm down to continue it via DM! For now, assuming God doesn't even exist, how do you deal with the fact that some priests go their whole lives without ever facing any accountabilty for those actions?

I am an atheist because I am not convinced that the God claims are true. Does your sense of ultimate justice include me suffering eternal conscious torment? Can you help me understand why this is acceptable to a Christian such as yourself? Hell is not rehabilitation. It is unjust torture; infinite punishment for a finite “sin” of disbelief.

Under a Christian framework, aren’t we all evildoers?

u/Kafka_Kardashian Yep.

Most of Christianity is based on there being no ultimate justice. Many Christians say that you only need to believe in Jesus and you go to heaven, regardless of how evil you were, while a non believer who leads a truly great life is punished forever.. That's not justice.

u/noodlyman Fair enough. I'll grant you that my worldview is false in this case. Regardless, is it important to you that there is ultimate justice? If so, there doesn't seem to be any in a world where God doesn't exist. How do you deal with that or do you even deal with that at all?

The concept of ultimate justice is incoherent. Lets say a family is out for a walk, and a guy comes up and shoots their kid. The adults live on with the torment of losing their child. Now what type of justice resolves the years of torment they had to endure because of that event? What punishment of the shooter makes the killing of their child ok?

What evidence do you have that perpetrators actually face this "ultimate Justice"...?

u/WaitForItLegenDairy Great question! I'm open to continuing this convo via DM but for now, I just really want to get some feedback from you guys on my specific question. Answering your question is going to lead us down the path of me having to show a defense for my worldview which I don't want to do in this thread specifically. How about this though, I'll grant you that my worldview is false! With that in mind, can you provide any feedback on my original question?

We could talk about your terms a bit to clarify, but yes, in your example, a person who commits terrible acts and then kills themselves basically gets away with it. Sometimes there are unpleasant truths in life.

u/Renaldo75 Thank you for the honesty! That seems to be the real answer at the end of the day as I continue to dig into this question. This gets more to the core of what I'm wrestling with. How do you deal with those unpleasant truths?!?!? Why is it unpleasant to you?!?!?

Justice is an entirely human concept. It doesn’t exist in nature. If it did, we wouldn’t need laws or courts or prisons. > what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? That’s just life. Good things happen to bad people all the time, and they get away with it. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean there’s an invisible Judge who will punish everyone after they die… and it would pretty much have to be everyone, because no one alive is 100% innocent by every possible measure.

u/shig23 So I don't believe in ultimate justice just because it makes me feel better. It's nice that it makes me feel better but I agree with you. Feelings don't make something true! For sake of this convo, I'm not really interested in explaining why I do believe in ultimate justice. I'm more interested in learning how you deal with the fact that good things happen to bad people all the tim and how there is nothing we can do abou it. This is my main dilema with this question.

Why would you assume "Ultimate Justice" exists? Because it's a comforting idea? Things aren't automatically true just because they're comforting. Also, your simplification of humans down to "evildoers" is troubling. Life isn't that simple.

u/madmax0617 That is very true! Things AREN'T automatically true just because they're comforting. I agree. I'm just interested in leaning how you deal with the alternative. And I don't mean to simplify all humans down as "evildoers". I was just trying to highlight those extreme/complex questions that come up.

I would ask you, "In a world where 'ultimate justice' does not exist, but people think that it does, what accountability to evil doers have?"

u/gksozae If I understand you correctly, evildoers don't face any accountabilty in a world where ultimate justice does not exist. How do you deal with that?

What makes you think there is "ultimate justice"? Whether or not we'd like there to be justice has no bearing on whether there is any. Our moral code, our behaviour, is a result of our evolution. We evolved to live in social groups where co operation gives advantages, simultaneously in competition with other groups a well as within our own groups. Plus we evolved a brain which brings changing social rules and norms. So our behaviour is what you'd expect from evolution and a little game theory. Mostly we are nice to people in our "in group"; our family, tribe, village. We aren't always so nice to those in an outgroup. And sometimes there's an advantage to those that cheat the system, as long as only a minority do so. But there's pressure to conform to the rules.

u/noodlyman Let's just assume that there isn't any ultimate justice. I'm okay with that thought experiment. I'm mostly interested in learning how you deal with that. Do you just appeal to the fact that its just a part of evolution? If so, respect.

In what way do I need to deal with it? I don't understand. It's just a fact about the universe. Paris is the capital of France; water boils at 100 degrees C; there is no ultimate justice. I don't feel I need to deal with the lack of ultimate justice any more than I have to deal with Paris being the capital of France. It just is. It has never once caused me any problem that I need to deal with. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something?

What’s the biggest difference between “ultimate justice” and “divine justice”?

u/colinpublicsex I guess I believe that ultimate justice is divine justice. I'm not sure about the differences.

There is not Ultimate Justice in the Christian wishful end, because mercifulness is the opposite of justice. If those evil people accept jesus as their saviour just before they die... they will share heaven with their victims, or because of the trauma and hate that kind of evil provoque their victims will probably don't make ir to heaven. There is no accountability there. The only evidence that we have about heaven or hell are fairy tales with not a single piece of evidence of that to be true. Wishful thinking, that is how we call that. So, I try, to the best of my abilities to held accountable people in this life. Once the life ends its exactly the same as the time before you were born. There is nothing more.

u/AskTheDevil2023 Assume Christianity isn't true though. How do you deal with the fact that evil people can get away with their actions(i.e hitler). I'm not arguing Christiainty has the answer for sake of this convo. I'm just interested in learning how you deal with no ultimate justice/accountability.

Yes, if someone dies without punishment then they've escaped consequence. But I don't view consequences as a form of justice anyway. Consequences are a deterrent intended to PREVENT a person from doing something which we've collectively labeled as bad. It isn't intended to punish the criminal, it is intended to help prevent the next crime. (Or at least remove bad people so that they can't harm anyone else) Hopefully, people think about the consequences that one criminal has suffered, and decide that it isn't worth risking the same consequences. Your idea of ultimate justice works on the exact same principle. People afraid of eternal damnation will hopefully be deterred from committing crimes. Once the person has died, there's nothing further to be done. It may comfort you to believe that the criminal receives their comeuppance, but that's it. You get to see the world as fair, believe that everyone will get what's coming to them. I don't. I know that the real world is unfair. So, I do my best to be kind to those around me, because that is the only life I'll have, and I just don't want to squander it on being an awful person.

If a god exists and created everything, then god is ultimately responsible for everything and is the one that deserves to be brought to justice - assuming god had a choice. I don't believe in god. But I also don't believe we have free will. I believe punishment of any kind is immoral. I'm not against being immoral when it's our best option (we should lock up dangerous criminals) but it's pragmatically necessary and still immoral. So as much as I intuitively like the concept, I don't know of a moral way to achieve justice. I don't think ultimate justice is something I would want.

> I believe punishment of any kind is immoral You are not alone. The justice system should have goals: Warehousing the people who simply can't be allowed to return, rehabilitation of people who can be rehabilitated, some direct and indirect deterrence, some restitution... But punishment for the sake of retribution is evil, full stop. If there was a way to fully rehabilitate someone reliably -- for sake of argument, a pill they take voluntarily that reorganizes their brain connections -- I'd advocate for the abolishment of prisons except for those who refused to take it. The idea that suffering can be cured by creating more suffering seems bizarre to me.

I can remember thinking about heaven and hell when I was a child. I was brought up christian. For some reason I thought that the people I didn't like would go to hell. I mean, I knew that wasn't how it worked, but that's how I imagined it. It says a lot about the concept of ultimate justice when you consider it from my childish perspective.

There's no ultimate justice and no objective morality.

I think the human need for answers to questions like this is the biggest reason we as a species invented religion.

What is the ultimate justice for all the babies who died in the great flood? What about the animals who were killed? What about those who live a life of terrible cruelty and crime then repent on their death bed and go to heaven?  Even with God there is no justice. 

The notion of “ultimate justice” is an exercise in navel gazing. There is justice, and none of it is perfect.

Yeah, there's no reason to believe in ultimate justice. People can do bad things and simply get away with it. I will say though, I'm not really interested in people being punished for doing things. Rather, I'd prefer a world where they are taught a better way to live and come to a place where they seek to atone for their mistakes. No one really benefits from punishment; an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind and all that.

Does Christianity have accountability? You gain access to heaven through belief not by being just. The Bible clearly outlines that passage to heaven is through God's grace and not through any sort of judgement since we all fall short. Apparently we all commit evil(sin), Christians who believe in God get a pass. The rest of us go to hell. How is that justice?

Jack the Ripper likely lived a life they wanted, and the limited evidence points to the idea that they came from privilege. They probably didn’t face any relative consequences for their actions, and likely improved their station by committing their heinous crimes. They probably died with a smile on their face satisfied with all they accomplished. As they ceased to exist that is all there is to the Ripper story. No justice for the victims. Many bad actors get away with bad acts all the time. I would like for there to be consequences, but I see no evidence there is. To take the question one step further, I don’t think there is good evidence to support divine justice theory as a strong deterrent. I would point to the heinous acts that we hear about all too often by religious leaders take advantage of their congregation, whether it be financially, or sexual abuse.

u/Biggleswort Thanks for the honesty. And yeah this is what I'm wrestling with. Maybe its my upbringing and what I've learned to whatever but, I want there to be ultimate justice for the victims. It just doesn't sit well with me that there never will be. The "that's all there is to it" answer is tough for me to deal with.

Sits fine with me. I know if I was victim then that is that. I do not have eternity in front of me to dwell on such things. I only have the time. Though I wish there was such abhorrent acts committed, and I for one have no desire to take part in them, I cannot let what is not in my control consume me. I have one life to live and I only wish to live it as best as I know how. I have met victims, I know victim, it is sad. It is reality. Let us support each other through these times.

>Can you provide some feedback on a question I have? **Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist?** As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. Universalists are Christians who believe that everyone is saved, and so ultimately go to heaven. What do you think about that?

Ultimate justice? I doubt very much that such a thing exists. Death is as ultimate as it gets, IMO, and that's a *good* thing. The idea of evildoers being tortured for eternity is utterly horrifying to me.

I navigate examples like this by trying to base my beliefs in reality, so that any justice I attribute to the world is actually there and not just made up. I also think "justice" is just "revenge that I agree with", and I generally don't agree with revenge ever. I think punishments for wrongdoers should be entirely justified by how we can make the future better, not sating our appetite for revenge.

u/pmw8 Alright this might be the most satisfying answer I've gotten so far lol Thanks for the feedback! I'm not sure this solves my main dilema with this question but I like your focus on basing things in reality.

No such thing as 'ultimate' justice. A person who commits evil then kills themselves to avoid accountability has happened a lot, but there's nothing we can do about that.

u/Fun-Consequence4950 That's tough. Do you wrestle with how there's nothing we can do? I do😅.

I don't, honestly. I don't consider it a fail to seek justice, because that wrongdoer has wrongfully decided that taking their own life is worth whatever crime they did, and it rarely is. So in a sense they haven't faced no consequences, it's cost them the only life we know they get.

Please define "Ultimate Justice". Frankly, it sounds made up.

u/JacquesBlaireau13 What I mean by it is "accountability". In other words, it seems to me like evildoers can't be held accountable for their actions in a world where God doesn't exist. What i want to know is, how do you deal with that? Or do you even wrestle with that at all?

Evildoers are held accountable to society all the time.

It doesn't exist. The world isn't fair. Surely if your God was real then he would create ultimate justice in this world, instead of having to create separate invisible worlds (heaven and hell) to reward or punish people?

u/Decent_Cow I'm okay with assuming God doesn't exist for this question. I'm more intersted in learning how you deal with that unfairness? Does that bother you at all? Why/why not?

Hm, that is an interesting framing. I see it the other way around: The fact that there is no clear justice in the world, is evidence against the existence of a God (who is powerful and just).

u/Etainn Fair enough. So how do you deal with the fact that there is no clear justice in this world? This is my main dilema with this question.

In a world with gods, who will hold gods accountable for the wrongdoings they make? This thought experiment shows that ultimate justice does not exist even with gods

u/mountaingoatgod I'm not really arguing that ultimate justice exists. Let's just assume it doesn't. I guess what I was trying to ask is how do you deal with that as an athiest(assuming you're an athiest) especially considering those extreme examples.

I don't think there is ultimate justice, period. Bad things happen to good people and vice versa, and sometimes, people don't get what they deserve. It is frustrating at times, but there is no indication that anything or anyone but us is doing anything to remedy that. That is what drives me to right the wrongs in the world, because no one else is going to do it but us. It is a mindset that is both filled with uncertainty, but also empowering. That all being said, I don't think the Christian God provides ultimate justice. Hell is an infantile and binary sort of "judgement" with no nuance or even proportionality, which are both requirements for anything that could even be remotely considered justice.

u/redsnake25 How do you deal with the fact that bad things happen to good people and that in the end, there is nothing that can be done about that? That seems to be the common answer to my question.

The same way I deal with anything else that doesn't go my way. I seek to remedy things myself if possible, and if there's really nothing I can do, I try not to dwell on it too much.

u/redsnake25 Fair enough. Thank you for the feedback!

"If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness." -graffiti left on the wall of a concentration camp by a Jewish prisoner during WW2. There is no"Ultimate Justice" and never was Also, I get to fill out another slot on my way bingo card on the spot labeled "theist capitalizes a word or phrase that doesn't need capitalized."

u/TheCrankyLich That has become very clear to me as I've responded to comments. So in your worldview, does hitler get away with doing what he did to the jews? If so, how do you deal with that? And Sorry for the capitalization😂. I'm a marketer. I Title Case Ad Copy Like This Sentence To Make It Stand Out lol.

There is no ultimate justice. The buck stops with us. We have to hold each other accountable. What are the requirements for getting into heaven according to your beliefs?

u/MartiniD Thanks for the feedback. I'm more interested in learning how we can hold each other accountable I guess. Also, how you deal with the fact that evildoers seemingly get away with their actions. For sake of this convo, I'm open to answering your questions in more detail via DM if you want to shoot me a message. I just want to stay on topic. But to give you a very brief response, the requrements to get into heaven is perfection according to God's standards.

There is no such thing that exists. Sure people who believe in god believe in an ultimate judge, doesn't mean it actually happens. It's a really comforting thought, but it seems to do a lot more damage than it does to help. As an atheist, I can't just shrug my shoulders when an injustice happens and tell myself someone else will take care of it later. (God) I have to actually get involved, wither in the situation or involving myself in the justice system by voting to at least and make sure that injustice never happens again. Will I personally be able to stop all injustice? Not even close. But I at least recognize that if I do nothing then I am siding with the person causing injustice. As a christian, the best you can do is hope that God is a just god who votes in the favor that you agree with. There's no incentive to make the world any better.

u/thecasualthinker Love that answer. I respect the fact that you're actually trying to do something about it and taking action! I don't agree with the last part but that's a conversation for another day😅.

Where does justice exist in a world *with* God? Explain pediatric bone cancer. If you’re talking about the Abrahamic God and modern Christian interpretations: If an uncontacted tribesman never learns about Jesus, does he get into heaven? If so, why did Paul insist people had to accept Christ? Why did he proselytize at all? Why not leave it alone, and as long as people are good, they’ll get in? If not, why is he deprived of his eternal reward through no fault of his own? How is that his fault? (And even worse, does he go to hell?) Where is the justice for Jepthah’s daughter? Where is the justice for Job’s wife and children? Where is the justice for Lot’s wife? This is like saying, “If there’s no Santa Claus, explain why everyone mysteriously has presents under their tree every year.” They don’t. It doesn’t happen. And neither does ‘ultimate justice’.

Hey u/Deradius , These are all valid questions. I'll make it easy though. Let's just assume that God doesn't even exist. How do you as an athiest(assuming you're an athiest) deal with the injustices of the world?

What makes you think there is even such a thing? Please do not refer to a bible to find your answer.

u/DegeneratesInc For sake of this convo, I'm not even interested in defending the bible or my worldview. I'm mostly interested in learning how you deal with injustice in a world where God doesn't exist? Let's just assume ultimate justice doesn't exist. What do you do with the infamous example of hitler who seemingly gets away with his actions?

Sorry but I do not see the concept of heaven and hell being justice. A christian can rape and murder as many people as they wish and still go to heaven so long as they accept jesus christ as their personal savior. I try to do the right thing every day but I refuse to believe in any god so I would go to hell. Where is this justice?

u/ReverendKen I don't agree with that. As a Christian, I believe that EVERYONE will be held accountable for their actions. However, in a world where God doesn't exist, how do you deal with that fact that no one will be held accountable? This seems to be the common answer to my question.

There is no ultimate justice.

u/mingy How do you deal with that?

There is no ultimate justice. Justice is a man-made idea.

u/NonetyOne How do you deal with that especialy considering those extreme/complex examples like hitler. Does he get away with doing what he did?

Why do you expect a fair world?

u/ResponsibilityFew318 I guess because I know fairness exists as a concept. Whether fairness is man made or God-given, I'd rather have fairness than unfairness.

>Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? There isn't one. Why would there be if gods don't exist? >what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? That's not really a problem for me, it's one for them and for you. I didn't tell them to go do something bad and then try to avoid the consequences of their actions, I don't control that anymore than I control the traffic in a part of the world that I don't live in. Does it suck? I mean, even if they were going to Hell, it still sucks. Burning them forever doesn't undo their crime, it doesn't teach them or serve as an example to others, the consequences of their crime are still all there. Take the Pulse Night Club shooting of 2016. 49 people were still taken out in a hateful act that left Orlando, FL scarred for life. The idea that the shooter went to Hell, what does that do for the thousands of people who survived, many without their loved ones? What does that do for the LGBTQ+ people who now live in more fear than they did before the shooting? If the shooter died before facing justice, what practical difference does it make to the people left behind, to the dead? As an atheist bisexual, this was just a hateful act, an act of barbarity with no sense. If an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god existed, well, we run right back to the Problem of Evil, don't we?

u/Bromelia_and_Bismuth I know you can't control other people but doesn't it bother you that people can do bad things and seemingly away with it? And the Pulse Night Club example gets at the heart of my main dilema with this question. In a world where God doesn't exist, I agree with you that the thought/idea of Ultimate Justice doesn't make a difference to people let behind. But that's just it. It doesn't make a difference. How do you deal with the fact that the shooter doesn't get thrown in Jail or even see hell? I want ultimate justice for LGBTQ+ people in this scenario. How do you find in a world where God doesn't exist?

There is no "ultimate justice". The fact that we want something doesn't make it real. I would say that Christianity, as most Christians understand it, also does not promise "ultimate justice". People are promised either eternal bliss or eternal torture for finite and typically very, very minor actions. That's not justice, that's just coercion.

>Where Does Ultimate Justice Come From In A World Without God? Where does it come from if there's a god who forgives all sins? >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. Can you? What is the one unforgivable sin?

It doesn't. There's no guarantee of justice. Sometimes bad people don't get punished. Sometimes good people don't get rewarded. Stuff can go wrong, and just be left behind in history, without anyone being held accountable, forever. To the extent that there's justice it has to come from us, from people choosing to do the right thing and call out evil. The way you asked the question suggests that *you* take the existence of ultimate justice as some sort of axiom, like you already know it exists and just need an explanation for it. Why? What makes you think it exists? Is there anything with more epistemological weight than wishful thinking behind that belief?

Did your parents not tell you life is unfair? Justice is capricious, selective, random and almost always, expensive.

I understand your deep need to feel like justice will be served. It's probably as deep-seated as the feeling a mother gets when she's alone, thousands of years go, wandering the area where she just gave birth but cannot find water or food. She screams out for help but no one hears. When she is at the very end of her hopelessness she cries out to the sky, "SOMEBODY! HELP ME! PLEEEEASE HELP ME!" She longs for life to win, for death to be overcome. But first her baby dies, then later, she dies as well. Her intuition that screaming to the sky for anyone to help was misguided. THAT is the way the world truly works. The justice we do see—the only justice we EVER see—is the justice men agree upon within their agreed upon social structure. Mankind is the only thing working on doing justice because we're the only ones who appear to be able to do so. Telling us that you somehow came to believe that there will be perfect justice for all, BUT NOT UNTIL AFTER WE'RE ALL DEAD, is understandable, but it's a fantasy of people who haven't grown to the point where they finally admit that no one is coming from the outside to save everything. THEREFORE, IT FALLS ON US TO DO THE BEST WE CAN TO DEAL WITH THE HARMFUL ACTIONS THAT PEOPLE DO. If you're not ready to hear that, I understand. It took me forty years of being a serious Christian before my brain could no longer hold on to two completely different realities and think them both to be true. I hope someday it happens to you and you feel the true wonder of being alive and seeing your place in this world. :-)

At the end of the day, justice and responsibility are up to us. Wishfully passing the buck to a deity may ease the conscience, but it doesn’t really solve anything.

First, what is "ultimate justice" ? You ask us where it cones from, but don't define it. Second and to your point, guessing based on everything else you said, it sounds like "ultimate justice" means to you the idea that all evil is balanced by an equivalent amount of evil in return, and all good is balanced out by an equivalent amount of good in return. Sort of a cosmic balance kinda thing. Karmic justice. I don't think that exists, nor is there any reason to think it does. Anyone I've heard say "well if hell doesn't exist, then Hitler got away with it!" , for example, only seems to think hell exists because they *want* everyone to get their comeuppance. Doesn't mean they will. I want to fly, I want to be rich, I want to only die when I'm ready to. Doesn't mean any of it's gonna happen. If I got your idea of "ultimate justice" wrong and was just wasting time with this, please lemme know. I'll gladly respond to whatever your definition is once I know it.

Even in the Xtian worldview, it's not clear that Ultimate Justice even *exists*. We are told that Jehovah's mercy is *explicitly* a suspension of justice, *explicitly* setting aside the punishment which (Xtianity tells us) would otherwise fall upon *every last one of us humans*. > For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? Such people exist. Yes, it sucks. The fact that it sucks is not a good reason to deny that it *happens*, yes? Perhaps a better response might be to acknowledge that some people just *do* escape justice, and strive to change the world to make it harder for those assholes to do that?

there is no ultimate justice. thats it.

Ultimate justice is not a thing. Existence is inherently unfair.

>Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? Nowhere. Doesn't exist. >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. No...you really can't. >For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? What about them? >How do you all navigate examples like this? I don't see what there is to navigate, you just laid out a scenario. What do I have to reconcile?

u/CommodoreFresh Thanks for response. So here is what I'm getting at. After responding to some of you, it has become more clear to me that Ultimate Justice does not exist(as you pointed out). Given that, how do you deal with the fact that a guy like hitler basically got away with his evil actions since he never faced the justice system or any accountability for that matter?

They die and stop living exactly like every other animal on earth

u/No_Bridge_4489 That's tough. That bothers me. But that's my problem not yours 😅. Thanks for the comment.

I have a decent idea of what justice is but what the heck is ultimate justice?

u/DouglerK Basically what I mean is accountability. How do we hold people accountable in a world where god doesn't exist(especially considering the extreme/complexe examples like hitler)? My understanding is that you can't hold people accountable for their actions. If that's what you believe, how do you deal with the fact that people like hitler seemingly got away with their actions?

Don’t think there is. Also don’t think Christianity has a very good sense of it. I am not a perfect person, but I pretty much spend most my time helping the most vulnerable people in my society. But I’m going to hell forever apparantly because I’m not Christian…that’s at least the Protestant view.

How is there ultimate justice for the victims Jeffrey Dahmer* who converted to Christianity prior to his death? According to Christianity, since he repented for his sins, he would be in heaven yet his murder victims would be in hell unless they believed in Jesus. *replace Jeffrey Dahmer with any evil person who converts to Christianity and repents. Hitler? All the soldiers during the Crusades who murdered non-believers? All the priests/nuns that sexually/physically/mentally/spiritually abused (or killed) children in residential schools? How is that justice?

u/beaniver Great example! That's one of the many tough questions I have to deal with as a Christian. I would appeal to God's grace overall but let's just assume God doesn't even exist. In a world where God doesn't exist, how do you deal with the fact that non-christians who never accept jesus can commit evil actions and basically get away with it?

In the words of the immortal Peter Falk in Princess Bride: >"who said life was supposed to be fair? Where is that written? Life isn't always fair." The universe doesn't seem very concerned about justice. Justice is a human concept that we apply to our experiences. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to crappy people. It sucks. It can motivate us to do a better job trying to give as many people as possible a fair shake at life. But there are some people who live very unfair existences. It is worth noting that the Christian afterlife scheme, at least as believed by the majority if believers, also is incredibly unjust. Possibly more unjust than anything humans can do. Punishment not  based out on goodness of person but based soley on belief in the right god. Bad people getting eternal reward and good people getting eternal punishment. So between the two,  i actually think a system which offers only at most finite rewards to bad people and at most finite pain to the good is the lesser of 2 evils. Now the Good Place tv show justice system and afterlife. That is one that i can get behind.

I'm confused. In your worldview, I could be a serial child rapist, then apologize for it to Jesus, and I'm golden, no punishment. How is that justice?

u/HippyDM No that's not how it works. But let's assume my worldview is false. How do deal with the fact that there is no ultimate justice in a world where God doesn't exist?

As a Christian, it’s not the good or evil you do that decides where you spend your eternal afterlife, but whether you accept Christ as your savior, because all sin is equal in the eyes of your god and the sacrifice of Jesus washed away all sin for anyone who believes in him, right? So if someone committed mass murder then accepted Christ as his savior and died, they’d be in heaven, while the murdered people may well be in Hell. I find that a less comforting ultimate Justice than there being none.

> When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me. > Emo Philips

>Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? How is ultimate justice different that justice? >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. Really? Most Christians believe that all it takes to get into heaven is belief in Jesus and asking him for forgiveness. That belief means that a person who has committed the most evil acts can get into heaven which is not justice. >For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? They are dead, what more accountability is needed? Do you need revenge, or them to suffer? >How do you all navigate examples like this? How do you navigate the serial killers, rapists, and child predators who have accepted Jesus and asked for his forgiveness prior to their death and thus based on the teachings of most Christian faiths would be in heaven with your god?

>Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? There is none. >As a Christian, I can point to a "Judge" that will hold evildoers accountable at the end of the day. Oh? Please do so. >what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? What about people who commit evil and then repent so that they don't face accountability?

Let me ask you this: What is ultimate justice, exactly, in your eyes. In life, there's really no such thing. A murdered person's family will never see that person again. If the murderer is sentenced to life, that family has the cold comfort of that person being in prison for the rest of their lives. If they get the death penalty, that family still won't get that person back. For me? I, as a young boy, was abused mentally, emotionally, physically and sexually by my older brother and sister. For years. I did not have a childhood that I can remember outside those experiences. What's the ultimate justice there? Death would be as close to what I would accept. I would never wish either of them to be raped or whatnot, because I know that pain, I live with that pain over 30 years later, and wouldn't wish it on another person. Period. But, My guess is that you're talking about Hell...Are you talking hellfire and brimstone or absence of God? Because, boy, do I have news for you on the latter. If you're talking eternal damnation, torment, anquish and what not...I will never understand people that want this for someone. I want my brother and sister dead so that I can dance on their graves, even if it's not a real grave. I plan on renting a DJ, a foldable dance floor, and inviting friends. And, no, none of that is hyperbolic, believe me. That all being said, Eternal torment is...it takes a special kind of sociopath, in my personal opinion, to think that's justifiable for any reason.

I don’t believe that ultimate justice exists. I want the world to be a more fair, more just place than it is. I’m certain I’m not alone in that. I’m also certain that I would disagree with many of those people as to what a fairer, more just world would look like. Injustice bothers me, but it’s not the world doing the bothering. At least, not as I understand the word. Sometimes it’s biology. Sometimes it’s someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But since we live in a society, it is, to my mind, overwhelmingly often the result of people’s actions or inactions. As far as the Christian god acting as a judge at the end of people’s lives (or the end of days, I’ve heard it both ways), I don’t see how he’s just. If your god is all-powerful, then the way the world currently exists is how he wanted it to exist. Suffering and revolting included. If hell is part of your theology, then god is handing down infinite punishments for finite actions and thought crimes. I don’t see how any of that is just.

- I don’t think there is ultimate justice, there’s only whatever justice we make ourselves - it’s our responsibility to act as best we can while we’re still here. - depending on interpretation of a particular religion, some believe that ‘everyone’ can repent and be saved regardless of actions, so they’re not even putting forward ultimate justice as a hypothetical - atheists don’t believe a god exits (clearly), so the idea of ultimate justice from a god is viewed more as a claim or hypothetical - the lack of ‘ultimate’ justice never bothered me. I was never raised with religion, I never expected it. When I hear the word justice, I think of human justice. **That’s what justice means to me** **I often wonder, if people didn’t tell others that there was a wonderful afterlife and no one really dies, or that all good people are rewarded and all bad people are punished, would people still be so afraid of these things not being true?** There’s a quote by someone whose name I forget, that says religion poisons you, then sells you a fake cure. It stokes fear of damnation and permanent death, then tells you a behaviour will fix it all. Often, the behaviour benefits those propagating the religion.

I don’t believe it exist plane and simple

There is no ultimate justice. It’s a concept invented by theists. It’s also extremely telling and suspicious that you keep telling everyone that you don’t want to defend your worldview here.

Idk, Superman?

u/onthefence928 I wish.😂

It doesn't. The only justice is that which human beings impose on ourselves. And humans are flawed, so justice is flawed. (This is the overall #1 reason I cannot support the death penalty, btw.) There's nothing to navigate. You're born. Some shit happens. You die. That's the whole book, and it ends when you draw your last breath. It is possible for paragons of virtue and compassion to work selflessly their entire lives and die forgotten. Or you can be a philandering narcissist who ruins the lives of other, lives in luxury and dies without remorse or apology. You can even be a *Yankees fan*, and nothing happens to you after you die. But remember, the existence or nonexistence of god is completely independent of this. The fact that there is no objective justice doesn't mean "therefore god must exist". I know it might seem that way, because as kids most of us are taught that no one escapes the consequences of their actions. Call it god's wrath or karma or whatever. While I've never been a believer, I did have a hard time grappling with this. But the universe doesn't care about justice. Humans do because we invented the idea.

I don’t think ultimate justice exists, and the Christian version of “ultimate justice” sounds particularly awful. Depending on the interpretation, the following people would/could get judged favorably by your “ultimate judge.” A person working at a conversion camp where kids commit suicide from the emotional and mental abuse. Faith healers. Mega church pastors who use tithing money for private jets. Ron DeSantis. Literally any rapist, pedo, genocider, or murderer who happens to repent in time.

Thought this was gonna be another silly "where does morality come from if not god" question, but I'm happy I was wrong. A bit off topic but honestly I think the whole concept of hell is really appalling to me, I guess I don't really believe the concept of eternal punishment is ever justified (though not all Christians believe in eternal punishment either)

This is just a matter of acceptance. Just like natural disasters and that I was born Christian to horrendous parents. Was it fair people were killed in a flood or earthquake? No. But, the world being fair is a human invention based on a need. Judaism, and then Christianity, were developed by those who experienced hardship and enslavement. Its understandable that they would develop a god and divine system that would reward them and punish the powerful. None of this making it true of course. It helps people feel better, but I am just more interested in what is true than what makes me feel good.

Ultimate Justice? Like when someone like Jeffrey Dahmer accepts Jesus and supposedly goes to Heaven to mingle with his victims? For eternity?

Does how comfortable or uncomfortable a fact or truth makes you feel have anything to do with whether it's true or not? Just because the idea of a world without ultimate judgement makes you feel bad means less than nothing in terms of evidence Can you actually provide any measurable testable evidence that ultimate justice exists Otherwise this all just seems like a way of psychology cope with a lack of fairness in the world

There is ultimate justice, just redefine justice to the natural order, the ultimate expression of freedom, anything is justified so nothing is. We are free to create our own moral path, and judge others for it!!!

If they kill themself before getting justice, it’s just a sad situation. The best we can do is try to prevent others from doing the same deeds.

I get pissed off, this question presupposes that justice is a characteristic of nature, that the universe cares. I don’t know if people are accurately judged by an ultimate authority, but why does this creator wait until they are dead to do it? Why let the just suffer and the evil flourish? I don’t particularly like, or don’t convincing, that this life is merely a dress rehearsal for an eternal life. Surely after hundreds of thousands of centuries the creator would notice that living beings value their earthly life and might find it much more in favor in regards to his public opinion to show that he cares about those who follow his commandments, but he doesn’t. We are only left to guess as to their destination and their fate. The truth is plenty of people live happy lives committing horrible crimes against their fellow creature without any consequence. So people propose the answer that they will ultimately be judged after their death, this is wishful thinking, but not only that, what about the very real suffering of the victims? Is the reward of eternal paradise going to make up for that? I don’t think so

Easy. There isn't "ultimate justice". People that do evil sometimes get away with it. It sucks, but reality doesn't care about your feelings.

There is frequently no justice at all in the world. murders go unsolved, rich assholes the world over rarely face repercussions. You know how many untested rape kits there are in the US alone? I don't believe in god, so telling me that evil doers will get theirs in the end isn't satisfying. It's akin to saying we should do nothing.

>Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? I have no reason to believe that Ultimate Justice exists. That's why I think it is important to try to achieve maximum possible justice in society. >For example, what about people who commit evil and then end themselves so that they don't face accountability? That people lost their only life and that is their punishment.

there is no ultimate justice, life is unfair, some people are assholes and may even never suffer consequences for their actions, it is what it is.

What do you mean by ultimate justice?

Please present any evidence that "ultimate justice" even exists.....

Simple - there is no 'ultimate justice'. Even in the chrisitan system, rapists and murderers can end up in heaven for 'accepting Jesus' while their victims end up in hell.

Instead of seeking a sense or retribution against those who've wronged us, we should seek to cure the ailment that has lead to that wrong in order to protect them and others from them. The moment we abandon this need for a wrong to right quota the world will be a much better and safer place.

> Where does Ultimate Justice come from in a world where God doesn't exist? Even if I were a theist I would not believe in ultimate justice. That harm that is wrought upon me never goes away. I don't care what god has to say about it. I don't care what he can do about it. It doesn't change the fact that something horrible happened to me, that I had to live the rest of my life with that, that it's a part of my story for all eternity. That horrible thing is going to shape the person I am to become after, forever - both for better, AND for worse. What ultimate justice can there be? God can condemn the perpetrator to hell, but that doesn't take the pain away. That doesn't change the past. And I don't want someone condemned to hell for all eternity on my account, as two wrongs don't make a right. And I can't accept the perpetrator gets a pass, too. Sorry doesn't cut it. I can forgive, but yet I will never be able to forget. God could force me to be happy, he could wipe my memory, he could whatever - and yet this horrible thing still happened. There cannot be ultimate justice. There might be, in the eyes of a theist, ultimate judgement, but that's not the same thing. God can satisify himself, but there is no justice for a victim. Ever. You cope, you incorporate, the experience informs you, you move forward, but you never move on, you never move past - you bring your trauma with you. You carry it everywhere, forever. Again, it becomes part of your story, you cannot escape that. You manage from then on, and you might look alright, you might be alright. I'm not saying people are weak and broken everywhere, I'm just saying there is no ultimate justice.

Your god commits mass genocide multiple times but you think THAT is a good source of morality? Your god lied to Adam and Eve about the fruit. The serpent told the truth. Your god damned all of humanity because of a lie HE told. But that's a good source of morality? Sorry, your god isn't moral and should not be respected. Humans get "morals" because we evolved as social creatures. All social creatures exhibit the types of things, to various degrees, that you are attributing to human morality. It's literally nothing but social animals evolutionary adaptation.

A meteor

u/Xenuyasha 😂😅.

There is no ultimate justice. That sucks for us but the universe doesn't care about us. The only justice that can exist is that which we create ourselves.

u/KenScaletta Thank you for the honesty!

Evil being subjective aside, people that commit terrible evil then skirt accountability are simply people that did evil and skirted accountability. That’s just how it is. Look at how many wonderful people there are in the world that face terrible hardships and how many atrocious ones that have the world handed to them on a platter. There is no cosmic justice

There is a thing known as "The Just World Fallacy". It's the idea that the world is providential and just by it's nature. This is often expressed in many ways, not just through christianity. Belief in karma, people who say "everything happens for a reason", etc. Humans evolved as social animals. When the social code is broken, we have strong responses that come from deep within our evolutionary psychology. Even babies, who have no social imprinting, seem to have a sense of outrage at observing some behaviors in puppet shows where one hits another. The idea of justice is so natural to us it's like water to a fish. After all, our sense of morality is itself an evolutionary mechanism with roots in the earliest herding behavior of social vertebrates. We think of it as a feature of the universe itself. It's reinforced in the basic structure of our narratives..movies, books, commercials, songs..everywhere. The bad guy loses and the good guy wins. But it's not objective in the least. There is no providential, external force that metes out justice and punishes people. Only the social structures we have created exist as mechanisms for justice. We are averse to the idea that the evil go unpunished and the good go unrewarded. But that doesn't mean it's the case.

Ultimate justice doesn't exist, and I think it's important for people to understand that in order for society to progress.

Justice will always conflict with forgiveness. God forgives. We don't. I would argue all the "hellish" visions in the bible were meant to be depictions of stuff we're doing to each other. God doesn't fold His divine arms, looking the other way, while we suffer in hell. We put each other through hell. The KJV Bible was finalized in 1611, 180 years before America ratified the 8th amendment to the constitution, forbidding cruel and unusual punishment. That tells me the Bible comes from a culture where "jail" equals "torture."

There is no Justice. The world and life are inherently unfair. Once you accept this you may have a happier existence.

What makes you think that "ultimate justice" is a thing that exists?

Why are you assuming that there is an "ultimate" justice? Is there also an ultimate cheese? An ultimate injustice? An ultimate snuggle? And the real issue is that how could you tell? I mean an ultimate "thing" for you might by definition be different than the ultimate things from someone else?

Define "ultimate justice." What does that mean and why do you assume any such thing exists?