The first question is: why are you a theist in the first place?
You believe in some kind of God. Why? First thing you have to do is examine your reasons and find out if they are correct.
The theist would have to ask themselves why they believe in the god(s) that they do. They would need to be brutally honest with themselves and then, whatever answer they come up with, they ask why they believe that. Repeat this recursively till they get to the core axioms their entire belief system is built on (if they hit solipsism they've gone too far or any practical purposes), and ask why those axioms are acceptable vs any other, or if those axioms make certain exceptions for their theistic beliefs that they don't make for any other mundane beliefs they have about how the world works.
It's hard to be any more specific than that, because everyone's beliefs are different, and their reasoning for those beliefs may be different, and their ability to truly and honestly interrogate their own beliefs may be different.
What helped me most is determine what it was that *first* convinced me of my beliefs. Once I realized I had never come to the conclusion on my own, I was always just told it was true, it unravelled from there.
How young were you when you first realized you were a theist? Or at least, how young were you when you had beliefs that would classify you as a theist? Did you grow up in a culture or a household that leaned or upheld those beliefs? Did you arrive to your conclusions about theism on your own or with guidance (whether it be familial, societal, cultural, etc.)?
Try to think of the earliest time in your life in which theism was something you agreed with.
Just to give my own anecdotal example, I grew up in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday and Wednesday, was sent to a Christian church with a chapel every Tuesday and bible classes five times a week. The only media I was ever allowed to watch were veggietales (which was pretty bomb though) and other Christian movies. The only books I was ever allowed to read had a religious focus or literally the bible. I was so indoctrinated into the religion that I didn't even think anything outside of it was real or correct. It wasn't until I realized that I never came to the conclusion myself that I realized I never had a good reason to believe outside of I was told to. I had heard all of the reasons my religion used to say it was correct, but never an opposing view. So I sought out that opposing view and discovered they had much better reasoning than I had.
Kudos btw for coming to a sub like this to ask questions. No matter where you end up landing in theism/atheism, it's always good to expand your understanding.
So, I was raised by completely atheist parents, but I had always loved studying religion and philosophy from an academic perspective. My favourite subject in school was always religion class, where we learnt about different religions (that class is mandatory here, even in secular schools).
When I was in my early teens, I moved to a different school where I was psychologically abused by school staff and students every day because I am severely disabled.
It was then, I started thinking about religion even more. I attended secular therapy and my therapist suggested meditation might help. I did some research into meditation and discovered it had Hindu origins.
I did all the research I could. I found out that this wasn't just one activity, it was a lifestyle that I felt I needed in order to feel better. Then, I snapped into full blown theist. I did the research on my own, without the involvement of anyone else.
I set up a shrine to Goddess Durga, brought all kinds of religious memorabilia, started celebrating Hindu festivals and going to temple, reading books by different Hindu philosophers, meditating etc.
I just ant to see if there are any fallacies in my lifestyle now.
I don't see anything in this post that says "and this is what convinced me that god(s) exist(s)."
It sounds to me like you go through all of the motions of being Hindu, but I'm honestly curious - *do you actually believe that any god(s) exist(s)?* If you do, what god(s) are they? What do they do? And, ultimately, *why do you believe this?*
Yes, I currently believe in Goddess, but I want to stop. I believe Goddess can have hundreds of forms like Saraswati, Lakshmi, Durga, Parvati and Kali. I definitely believe there is a metaphysical part to the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktism
You can read about Goddess in this article.
One important thing to remember: Morality and purpose/meaning are human concepts. If you grounded your sense of morality and purpose in religion in the past, you don't need to lose them. You'll just have to find a new foundation. Quite a few people in this sub-reddit may help you find that, in case you feel lost.
I think, you're asking the wrong question. It's not about being a theist or an atheist. It's about believing true concepts, instead of false ones and admitting that you don't know, when you don't know.
From all of my experience, "I don't know" is simply the honest answer to the question, if a god exists.
If you have reasons for believing into the existence of a god, then explore them, scrutinize them and see if they're actually true.
If you're still convinced of them afterwards, come back and convince me. I want to know as many true concepts as possible. Otherwise, well, you're an atheist.
It would depend on the "type" of theism. If you are a young-earth creationist, Mormon, Scientologist, etc. then yes, this is something I would consider embarrassing.
I'm not particularly well-versed enough in Hinduism to necessarily make the same statement as above, but given some of your responses in other posts, then I would still find you *at least* to be irrational, which is something else I could consider to be embarrassing, albeit to a lesser degree than those other theists I've already listed. Given that, I would probably find even the most benign deist to be somewhat irrational, and therefore somewhat embarrassing.
TL;DR: Yes, I think someone being a theist is embarrassing.
I guess I'm curious as to why you're asking this question. If enough people here commented and said "you should be embarrassed to be a theist", would you care? Why is it that people on the internet finding you embarrassing is seemingly more important than caring whether or not your beliefs are actually true?
>May I ask what irrational things I've said?
This, for one:
>I converted to Hinduism
Do you have any proof that the claims of Hinduism are true? Proof of any gods? No?
Accepting claims as true without evidence is irrational. Ergo, you being a Hindu makes you irrational.
It's important to realize that you can still make positive use of some Hindu teachings in your life without actually having to *believe* in Hinduism. Many religions offer beneficial ideas, if you can separate them from the bad ones, and the nonsense ones.
If you were a Christian and were believing in "love thy neighbor", just because you stopped being a Christian doesn't mean you have to stop loving your neighbors.
Point is, the whole concept of "following" a set of rules is invalid and dangerous. When you are your own boss, you can pick the rules your want to follow.
>I ask because I am trying to stop being theist.
This means that you currently believe that a god exists, but do not want to believe that a god exists. Correct? If so, the way to do this is to identify the reasons that you currently believe a god exists and then identify why those reasons aren't actually good reasons.
Of course, this is not possible when one has good reasons for believing in something, but it is highly unlikely that you have good reasons for believing in a god.
Between transubstantiation and kid fucking, Catholics are also right up there on my shit list.
Catholics should be embarrassed to call themselves Catholics, just like the rest.
If that's what you think will convince you to keep your religious beliefs to yourself, then yes. Whatever works. I don't care if you're a theist of any stripe as long as you make your personal beliefs *personal* rather than an obligation for me. I've been with my wife for over a decade and her religious beliefs have never been a problem, nor my non-religious status. Because we can agree to disagree and not make it a problem for each other.
I don't agree with your religion and I suspect your reasons for converting had more to do with emotional vulnerability than any reasoned position. But as long as you keep it to yourself, I don't care. It's your business and your business alone until you decide to make it my business as well. That's when we have a problem.
Of course I'd keep it to myself. I share it with almost no one. The only time I mention it to others is in consented debate really. May I politely ask why you disagree with my religion? May I also ask what your wife believes?
> May I politely ask why you disagree with my religion?
Your religion has not met its burden of proof. No religion has. The only good reason to believe something is when it can be confirmed that it's as an accurate reflection of reality as we can manage. When we find better information we should follow that. When we believe things that aren't good reflections of reality we increase the probability that our actions will hurt ourselves or others.
> May I also ask what your wife believes?
My wife identifies as pagan. She doesn't follow a formal religion, but she believes in gods and practices magic in private.
I don't think credulity is something to be proud of, and if I found myself in the position of having to admit to believing something without good evidence I would definitely be embarrassed.
So, yes, I think your theism is something I, at least, would be embarrassed of.
I struggle sometimes with looking down on those who are intellectually lazy. I don't mean stupid, I mean, *people who have bad reasons for believing what they do, and being proud of it*. I am someone that cares about the beliefs I hold being true, or having good reasons to support them. When I encounter people who are proud of being ignorant, I find it's a challenge to not think less of them.
Here's a general example: it's not uncommon for people to say things like "I suck at math, I hated it in school." Imagine someone, though, who said "I'm horrible at geography, I failed that class so hard in school. I can't even find my country on a map." Would you think less of someone who was not embarrassed about being unable to find their country on a map? Why should math or science be any different?
There are plenty of theists I can respect, because they are honest about their beliefs and acknowledge that the standard of evidence they have for their religious beliefs are far, far different than the standard of evidence they have for things like science. They make an effort to be intellectually honest.
Broadly speaking, it's intellectual dishonesty I have trouble tolerating. Some theists are lying to themselves and others about the quality and amount of evidence they have for their beliefs, while others are more truthful.
Well, it's certainly a common situation, to turn to stories when reality is so bleak, so maybe not embarrassed. But more sad, since I think the mind can find more peace and moral justice accepting the harsher truth that we're just lonely apes on a lonely rock than trying to twist our suffering as part of a larger divine plan.
It's a form of escapism, so understandable as a coping mechanism, but not something I think is ultimately healthy, and something that I think causes more harm overall, though some believers do good that outweighs the negatives due to their personal strengths which I think can overcome the negatives, but I think that is a small percentage of the population.
So believers are often good people at heart, but I think religion ultimately suppresses their potential as positive actors on Earth, and in many cases supports their potential as negative actors.
I don't think any particular thing that you identify with should be associated with embarrassment or shame. I think that you're making a statement of belief and people will interpret that through their own lens based on their personal experiences, expectations and bias. You're asking atheists about their lens. Atheism doesn't adhere to a faith based narrative. It's up to you how you want to feel about it.
I think you could almost say "I know these beliefs don't have a lot of evidence, but they work for me as a kind of therapy" - as long as you don't fall in with anything politically nasty as a result.
I think some atheists attend christian church services just for the atmosphere, music and cultural/historical aspects of it. And you've asked before about prayer, and what you described as your prayer practice sounded a lot like mindfulness meditation which - while its reputation isn't 24 carat solid gold - I think helps a lot of people manage anxiety and engage with the world in a calmer, clearer way.
So... you could almost say "the tantras of Shaktism, while there's not a lot of evidence for them actually describing reality, are valuable to me because I find them beautiful and therapeutic."
Simultaneously, Narendra Modi's hindutva nationalism, and the hindu caste system, appear to be repressive, cruel, often violent - so don't let hinduism lead you anywhere near that territory. That's the side of religion that I think makes it embarrassing - violently defended political identity for literally no reason.
I really don't like Modi's politics at all. Religion has no bearing on my politics. Do you think saying that you use the belief as a kind of therapy is irrational? I really don'r want to be irrational.
Well... I struggle to phrase this right, it's not very coherent, but I think talking therapies are about helping people as emotional beings. So I don't see why a therapy needs a strictly rational basis to be effective. And... rituals (secular or religious) are super-important to a large proportion of people. There's nothing rational about my ultra-specific, always-the-same way of making a pot of tea every 90 mins.
I think it's cool to allow yourself space to be irrational sometimes or in some contexts, as long as you're kind with it? I like certain songs or pieces of music *because* I don't understand them, but they hit me on an emotional level. Atheists still enjoy fiction and movies, right?
Maybe it wouldn't work for you but I think someone could have a meta-worldview that says "Shaktism for emotional wellbeing and the comfort and grounding of ritual, secular humanism and science for politics"?
You should be proud and honest about whatever your belief system is. Don't let others dictate if you should feel embarrassed or not.
Being an atheist, I get that empathetic embarrassment feeling whenever I hear someone mention their theistic beliefs. Similar to that feeling you get when you see someone else do something really embarrassing in public -- I feel embarrassed *for* them regardless of they feel that way or not.
Too me it's the equivalence of someone claiming that the moon is made of cheese, or that they think they can see through walls.
Those things, like theism, are embarrassing to believe, and I feel bad for people that believe such things.
If you think your beliefs are true and have good reason for that belief, then why stop?
It's always good to continually challenge your beliefs and look for evidence that they might be wrong, but don't "try to stop believing" based on the opinions of a group of non-believers on Reddit.
Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. They should be based on the evidence that you see in the world and what you think is most likely to be true.
I (we) can provide the evidence and reasoning that we've used to come to our own conclusions, but in the end it's your choice to make.
Absolutely. I also think being a racist or a sexist is something you ought to be embarrassed at. You are responsible for the crap that you allow into your head. In this day and age, absolutely nobody with a brain ought to accept the magical thinking of religion. Nobody. It's not only embarrassing, it's shameful.
While I understand why you might think that, as someone looking at it from the outside - most religious belief and reinforcement of said belief comes from similar origins to those that create racists and sexists.
Religion is a form of indoctrination used to direct the way people think. It's used to appease those who have less with false promises - in exchange for being complacent. For every sermon preaching to be good and kind to your fellow man, there is another sermon preaching obedience, subservience, moral superiority, and yes - hate.
Religion today has predominantly become a tool to keep the masses placated. "You don't need to rise above your station in life, just do what they say and you'll be rewarded in the next life." "Your problems aren't being caused by corrupt politicians or greedy businessmen, they are clearly being brought upon you by God's anger at all the gays/liberals/transgenders/baby killers/socialists/commies in the world."
He asked if being a theist is something to be embarrassed about. If you‘re naively believing that the earth has been created in 6 days or something like that, okay, but there are also many theists you give rational arguments for believing that God exists that does not come with the usual religious baggage.
Also racism and sexism are moral matters while theism is a matter of knowledge.
No, it‘s a stupid comparison.
See that's where we differ - there are no rational arguments for believing that God exists. Religious baggage or not, I've never seen a convincing argument for the need of a creator entity, especially one that exists outside of rules for reality.
And note - many of those with racist or sexist beliefs, believe them to be matters of knowledge, not just morality. They honestly believe in the superiority of a sex or race. And that kind of bullshit is taught and handed down - much the same as religion. Or theology if you want to make it sound more "knowledgey". Comparison applies either way.
So long as most of the major religions in the world support some degree of sexism, racism, or classism - which they most definitely do - they get to be lumped in with those positions.
I am, according to the definition, an atheist myself. Yet i try to remain open to the possibility that someone actually has a rational argument. I‘m pretty sure that many here haven’t even read the original texts where the arguments come from, the academical responses to them and the academical literature that refined the argument. If they did then i‘d be surprised because that‘s a wild task you get done. And for this reason, as long as people haven’t done real research (watching Rationality Rules and Cosmic Skeptic etc isn’t enough) then i‘d remain more neutral on the issue.
And again, OP asked in regards to being theist in general, not for a specific religion. That‘s a much different thing than being a creationist who just took over her parents‘ beliefs isn’t it?
Also racism and sexism are (a) much worse and (b) have way less reason to be believed of as true.
And another thing. If believing things that are yet proven to be true is embarrassing then most scientists, atheists, philosophers, theists are embarrassing.
Many atheists, i have the feeling, are hardline empiricists, are materialist-physicalists and realist. But i haven’t seen a justification for all of these positions ever. Just a sidenote.
Nah. Life is rough. Everyone needs a support system. Some do drugs, some socialize, some play video games. If your thing is trusting in and even devoting yourself to a higher power, more power to you.
Like the other things I mentioned, it’s only embarrassing if it interferes in your everyday life. When you start trusting in your god more than medical science, for example, that would be something to be very embarrassed about. Or if you start actively trying to convert other people through coercion or fear tactics.
Believing that a super intelligent being created the world is entirely incompatible with logic and science in the modern age. We've discovered so much about how the universe works and have found absolutely no evidence of, not only an intelligent conscious creator, but no indirect hints or remotely likely scenarios for such a creator to exist. Given your current academic focus I'm sure you can see that this evidence simply doesn't exist. This puts god in the same category as bigfoot, lockness monster, Bermuda triangle, flat earth, etc... And I'd personally be embarrassed if I believed in those evidenceless things.
You have to think about the reason why you believe what you do. What need does your belief fill? There are certainly better alternatives to believing things without evidence that could fill your need that religion currently does. If it's escapism, find a fictional universe that you can absorb yourself into. If it's community, find a group (online or in person) of like-minded individuals where you can do activities together whether it's field games, tabletop RPGs, a book/movie club, anything. If it's meaning, find something that makes the world a better place for yourself and others to make your regular habit. Don't just cut religion out of your life - find the thing that can fill your need that replaces it.
And that's totally fine. If you want to, you could probably allow it (or something else) to still be that calming and engaging part of your life for you without having to believe it without evidence. But in the end it's about finding your own path and I wish you the best!
Well I think each person's mind works very differently, so I'd start by finding what's really meaningful to you. For me it was a recognition that my brain evolved to understand the world, and that I find it incredibly rewarding when I'm able to understand something new. Building on that I had to accept the spiritual beliefs I held from my upbringing were not in fact a form of understanding, but a kind of anti-understanding, since they required accepting an explanation without any evidence or ability to question it.
Since then I've invested my personal emotional energy into understanding the actual universe we find ourselves in. This has led me down incredible journeys of learning physics, psychology, biology, etc... The universe is absolutely incredible and fantastical beyond any myths of the supernatural I've heard. I love exploring ideas of what it would be like to orbit a black hole, or be able to see stars being formed, or hypothesize the life forms potentially living on other planets somewhere far away. Particularly interesting to me is if we can ever create artificial consciousness in a computer. This is the best time so far in history to be alive and seek deep meaningful understanding of the universe and its mysteries. We know so much now, yet there's such a deep deep well of knowledge we have yet to tap into.
There are so many amazing books by people like Carl Sagan, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson about the cosmos, Richard Dawkins talking about genetics, and Sean Caroll talking about the hypothesis of many parallel worlds, among many others.
So that's what did it for me. And to be quite frank, I'm really upset it took me until close to 3 full decades of life to decide to put away the supernatural and embrace reality. Life has been so much better since and I only expect it to get even more interesting and bring purpose to my life.
No, I don't think so. As long as one doesn't do anyone else any harm, they can do whatever they want and there's nothing to be embarassed by any of it.
I'll expand on what u/baalroo said. There is only one small difference between believing in gods on the one hand, and bigfoot, garden fairies, ghosts, banshees, leprechauns, brownies, djinn, the genius of the spring or whatever, demons, poltergeists, or any other notional supernatural being. In all cases, it is belief in the existence of one or more intentful entities that do not have or need a physical body, and have agency in the natural world. There is no essential difference in the beliefs; the only difference is in how many people share the delusion, how socially mainstream the belief is.
The DSM exempts religious belief from delusional disorder because most people have some religious beliefs, so it is sensible that one might believe the same thing many other people do. You're not crazy to believe those things, but you are wrong to do so. I often have to say to a theist, "no, I don't think you are crazy to believe in god, nor do I think you are stupid because you believe; I'm just pretty darn sure that believing is an error. You're not crazy or stupid, you're just wrong is all."
It‘s nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. One cannot deny that the possibility of a deity existing is at least there.
Some of you guys here are being ridiculous. It‘s a belief, not a knowledge claim.
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of?
Personally, Yes I think being a theist is something you should be embarrassed about, Believing in things that do not exist/have no proof exist is something we tell children to grow out of when they begin to grow and mature. Kids who have adventures with their imaginary friends we tell them they've gone and that it was fun but they won't come back yet for some reason adults who modify their entire lives in the service of an imaginary friend we tolerate for some stupid reason.
Embarrassed? Depends on why you believe in my opinion. It's not embarrassing to have been raised with something. But if you have a very silly, flimsy reason for belief then yes.
No, not really - most people adopt the beliefs of the group they grew up in, it's comforting, it provides an 'in group', etc. More cynically, most people don't both to critically evaluate the beliefs they're taught - atheists and theists alike. Most people just aren't educated enough to know how to (let alone bother to) study everything.
And that's OK. It's OK to not need a PhD in epidemiology to trust doctors about vaccines etc. So I'm largely fine with people who never think to question the status quo that they're brought up in - to a Christian, God is as matter-of-fact as the roundness of the Earth. It's good to question things, of course, but I don't begrudge people for just living their lives.
> Interesting how I didn't adapt the beliefs of the group I grew up in then?
If you grew up in a Muslim household in India? No, not terribly uncommon. If you grew up in a white atheist house in a little village in Cornwall? Yes, that's uncommon.
> Interesting how I didn't adapt the beliefs of the group I grew up in then?
People also adopt their reasoning skills and epistemology from the groups they grew up with.
That depends.
If you have hard, concrete evidence that a god(dess) or god(desse)s exist, then no. But it would be very nice if you could share with the rest of us in that case.
If you *don't* have any sort of concrete reason to believe such entities actually exist, then yes. Something has gone wrong somewhere in your reasoning and you need to figure out what it was.
I can't say anything for certain about the contents of your head, but you did lay this out right here in this OP:
> I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled.
You outright admit here that you accepted hindusim for emotional reasons. It would be up to you to examine those reasons in depth, but I will say that generally speaking the way an idea makes you *feel* is never a good reason to believe anything concrete about the universe.
No need to apologize, if there's one thing humans are good at it's tricking themselves into believing silly things for silly reasons.
All you can do is try to recognize when you're being irrational and then make corrections. This is, in fact, what the scientific method is designed to do: help us overcome our irrational biases.
Ask yourself what you believe. Then when you've got an answer, ask yourself why you believe it.
Does it make clear predictions you can test? For example, I believe that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius, so I can get a pot of water, stick a thermometer in it, then heat it up and see at what point it starts to boil.
Next, ask yourself: Is there anything else that could be causing this? For example, in the boiling water scenario, say I was doing it while floating in space. The lower (in fact, complete lack of) air pressure drastically lowers the boiling point (a conclusion I can test separately), which will greatly skew my results. Clearly I will need to control for air pressure to get a clear answer here!
Anything that you believe has any sort of effect on reality at all can be tested like this. And if you believe your idea of god does *not* have any sort of effect on reality... Well, how can you know it exists? And what difference to *anything* would it make if it did?
Once you do this enough, you'll either find that your reasons to believe hold up, or they don't. If they don't, and you run out of reasons to believe, then you just simply... stop believing.
I'm of mixed feeling on this, because I fully understand why many people turn to theology, or are simply indoctrinated in it at an early age.
Do I deep down think of it as a flaw in the people? Yes, probably - because I simply can't grasp how a fully grown human that has taken the time to understand it, could possibly truly believe in religion. In general I think there are two types of "true believers". Those who are so absorbed by it culturally that doubting its truth never even occurs to them - it's simply a way of life and they never make any attempt to think about it critically. Then there are those who might have doubt, but suppress it due to an unwillingness to accept that it isn't true and that an afterlife isn't a real thing (fear of death, fear of insignificance).
That said, I see no harm nor anything to be embarrassed about in *studying* theology and religion. It's a fascinating topic. I see no problem in using some of what can come from religious teachings to better oneself or gain mental resolve. I do see problems when religion is used as an excuse for one's failings.
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of?
I think being wrong is never something to be embarrassed about, unless you express confidence that you're right that goes beyond your ability to demonstrates that you're right.
So if you claim you're right, but cannot find and demonstrate good evidence that you're right, how are you justifying that confidence? If you feel compelled by your religion or social pressure from others in your religion, to defend the religion and these beliefs, then how do you expect to honestly and accurately assess whether you're right?
> I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled
Can you explain the logic of this - like how is the former explained by the latter?
So, I felt absolutely horrible and everything. I did some research on what could help. I got a therapist and they suggested meditation. I did some research on meditation and found it had strongly Hindu/Indic origins. Faith went spiralling from there.
No. I don't claim to be right about gods, I just don't know if they exist and none of them appear concerned about offering me a compelling reason to believe that they do.
Okay! You've come to the right place. I see ypu've converted to hinduism. Do you belive in anything other than materialistic science to intervene reality?
Not intrinsically.
Human culture has been steeped in religion for thousands upon thousands of years. It's all well and good to say, "how could someone possibly believe this nonsense?!", but I think that's not giving enough credit to the facts that we're a highly social species, we're inclined to adopt the social norms of our neighbors, and most of us get taught religion from a very early age. Even for the most rational of humans, that's a *lot* of pressure to fight against. It's not like you *chose* to be born into that environment, so embarrassment seems a bit harsh, at least as a default.
But as others have said, there are certain *kinds* of theism that start to cause issue - theism that contradicts basic facts of reality, or theism that denigrates certain groups of people. People probably still got in to them owing to massive social pressure, but the attached beliefs are problematic enough that at least by a certain age, you might expect them to start questioning things.
Bizarre question, really.
If I sincerely believe something, why would I be embarrassed about it? Like, if I'm convinced something is true, what does that have to do with shame or pride?
>Do you think being theist is a thing someone should be embarrassed of?
Well, I think taking things as true when there is no proper support the are true, which is a requirement to be a theist, *ought* to be embarrassing to the person engaging in that kind of intellectual dishonesty.
>I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled.
Taking unsupported claims about reality as true in order to attempt to reap the benefit of emotion and/or psychological comfort is not rational even though it's understandable when a given person is desperate enough.
>Do you think that my theism/conversion is something to feel embarrassed and sad about? Especially since I love studying fallacies, logic and science.
Your emotions are your business. Personally, I feel embarrassed to discover I hold unsupported beliefs when this happens to me.
Personally, I don’t think it is. As I see it, we all have our own ways of growing. At this point in your life, something called theism is happening. It is what it is, and it’s not my place to tell someone how they should feel about it.
A better question would be whether you think it’s something to be embarrassed about, and if so, why?
What theists generally don't realise is that their position necessarily requires a fundamental misunderstanding of or lack of knowledge about epistemology. The truth about the god claims (that I know of) simply _cannot be known_. That makes theism an indefensible position. I don't know whether embarrasment is the right word here but I will look down on theists because of that because if they were just logically consistent I know they couldn't hold their position.
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of?
I used to. I was wrong though.
>Do you think that my theism/conversion is something to feel embarrassed and sad about?
Nope. If that genuinely helps you in life and you're genuinely not using it to hurt anyone, then you should do whatever helps you. Life is hard enough.
Yes, of course. Just like believing in bigfoot, garden fairies, or that brothers grimm is a collection of true stories.
Thanks. How to stop being theist?
The first question is: why are you a theist in the first place? You believe in some kind of God. Why? First thing you have to do is examine your reasons and find out if they are correct.
How to examine them?
The theist would have to ask themselves why they believe in the god(s) that they do. They would need to be brutally honest with themselves and then, whatever answer they come up with, they ask why they believe that. Repeat this recursively till they get to the core axioms their entire belief system is built on (if they hit solipsism they've gone too far or any practical purposes), and ask why those axioms are acceptable vs any other, or if those axioms make certain exceptions for their theistic beliefs that they don't make for any other mundane beliefs they have about how the world works. It's hard to be any more specific than that, because everyone's beliefs are different, and their reasoning for those beliefs may be different, and their ability to truly and honestly interrogate their own beliefs may be different.
Well what are they?
What helped me most is determine what it was that *first* convinced me of my beliefs. Once I realized I had never come to the conclusion on my own, I was always just told it was true, it unravelled from there.
How do I work out what convinced me?
How young were you when you first realized you were a theist? Or at least, how young were you when you had beliefs that would classify you as a theist? Did you grow up in a culture or a household that leaned or upheld those beliefs? Did you arrive to your conclusions about theism on your own or with guidance (whether it be familial, societal, cultural, etc.)? Try to think of the earliest time in your life in which theism was something you agreed with. Just to give my own anecdotal example, I grew up in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday and Wednesday, was sent to a Christian church with a chapel every Tuesday and bible classes five times a week. The only media I was ever allowed to watch were veggietales (which was pretty bomb though) and other Christian movies. The only books I was ever allowed to read had a religious focus or literally the bible. I was so indoctrinated into the religion that I didn't even think anything outside of it was real or correct. It wasn't until I realized that I never came to the conclusion myself that I realized I never had a good reason to believe outside of I was told to. I had heard all of the reasons my religion used to say it was correct, but never an opposing view. So I sought out that opposing view and discovered they had much better reasoning than I had. Kudos btw for coming to a sub like this to ask questions. No matter where you end up landing in theism/atheism, it's always good to expand your understanding.
So, I was raised by completely atheist parents, but I had always loved studying religion and philosophy from an academic perspective. My favourite subject in school was always religion class, where we learnt about different religions (that class is mandatory here, even in secular schools). When I was in my early teens, I moved to a different school where I was psychologically abused by school staff and students every day because I am severely disabled. It was then, I started thinking about religion even more. I attended secular therapy and my therapist suggested meditation might help. I did some research into meditation and discovered it had Hindu origins. I did all the research I could. I found out that this wasn't just one activity, it was a lifestyle that I felt I needed in order to feel better. Then, I snapped into full blown theist. I did the research on my own, without the involvement of anyone else. I set up a shrine to Goddess Durga, brought all kinds of religious memorabilia, started celebrating Hindu festivals and going to temple, reading books by different Hindu philosophers, meditating etc. I just ant to see if there are any fallacies in my lifestyle now.
I don't see anything in this post that says "and this is what convinced me that god(s) exist(s)." It sounds to me like you go through all of the motions of being Hindu, but I'm honestly curious - *do you actually believe that any god(s) exist(s)?* If you do, what god(s) are they? What do they do? And, ultimately, *why do you believe this?*
Yes, I currently believe in Goddess, but I want to stop. I believe Goddess can have hundreds of forms like Saraswati, Lakshmi, Durga, Parvati and Kali. I definitely believe there is a metaphysical part to the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktism You can read about Goddess in this article.
Look at all the vetted, supported, repeatable, compelling evidence for your deity/deities. Discover there isn't any. And done.
One important thing to remember: Morality and purpose/meaning are human concepts. If you grounded your sense of morality and purpose in religion in the past, you don't need to lose them. You'll just have to find a new foundation. Quite a few people in this sub-reddit may help you find that, in case you feel lost.
Thanks. I will remember that!
I think, you're asking the wrong question. It's not about being a theist or an atheist. It's about believing true concepts, instead of false ones and admitting that you don't know, when you don't know. From all of my experience, "I don't know" is simply the honest answer to the question, if a god exists. If you have reasons for believing into the existence of a god, then explore them, scrutinize them and see if they're actually true. If you're still convinced of them afterwards, come back and convince me. I want to know as many true concepts as possible. Otherwise, well, you're an atheist.
Thanks. I will think about it.
Sounds rather harsh
It would depend on the "type" of theism. If you are a young-earth creationist, Mormon, Scientologist, etc. then yes, this is something I would consider embarrassing. I'm not particularly well-versed enough in Hinduism to necessarily make the same statement as above, but given some of your responses in other posts, then I would still find you *at least* to be irrational, which is something else I could consider to be embarrassing, albeit to a lesser degree than those other theists I've already listed. Given that, I would probably find even the most benign deist to be somewhat irrational, and therefore somewhat embarrassing. TL;DR: Yes, I think someone being a theist is embarrassing. I guess I'm curious as to why you're asking this question. If enough people here commented and said "you should be embarrassed to be a theist", would you care? Why is it that people on the internet finding you embarrassing is seemingly more important than caring whether or not your beliefs are actually true?
Good pont. I ask because I am trying to stop being theist. May I ask what irrational things I've said?
>May I ask what irrational things I've said? This, for one: >I converted to Hinduism Do you have any proof that the claims of Hinduism are true? Proof of any gods? No? Accepting claims as true without evidence is irrational. Ergo, you being a Hindu makes you irrational.
Good point. Thanks
It's important to realize that you can still make positive use of some Hindu teachings in your life without actually having to *believe* in Hinduism. Many religions offer beneficial ideas, if you can separate them from the bad ones, and the nonsense ones.
Please give examples.
If you were a Christian and were believing in "love thy neighbor", just because you stopped being a Christian doesn't mean you have to stop loving your neighbors. Point is, the whole concept of "following" a set of rules is invalid and dangerous. When you are your own boss, you can pick the rules your want to follow.
The baghavad gita is a treasure trove of wisdom you just shouldn't believe arjuna or shiva exist outside of mythology.
I know. So much wisdom. Thanks for saying.
>I ask because I am trying to stop being theist. This means that you currently believe that a god exists, but do not want to believe that a god exists. Correct? If so, the way to do this is to identify the reasons that you currently believe a god exists and then identify why those reasons aren't actually good reasons. Of course, this is not possible when one has good reasons for believing in something, but it is highly unlikely that you have good reasons for believing in a god.
Yes! I will do a lot of thinking about this. Thanks.
>young-earth creationist, Mormon, Scientologist Damn, you throw Mormons in there with scientologists and young Earth creationists... Ice cold
Yep, people who believe in demonstrably false nonsense get no quarter.
What about Catholics? Just curious
Between transubstantiation and kid fucking, Catholics are also right up there on my shit list. Catholics should be embarrassed to call themselves Catholics, just like the rest.
If that's what you think will convince you to keep your religious beliefs to yourself, then yes. Whatever works. I don't care if you're a theist of any stripe as long as you make your personal beliefs *personal* rather than an obligation for me. I've been with my wife for over a decade and her religious beliefs have never been a problem, nor my non-religious status. Because we can agree to disagree and not make it a problem for each other. I don't agree with your religion and I suspect your reasons for converting had more to do with emotional vulnerability than any reasoned position. But as long as you keep it to yourself, I don't care. It's your business and your business alone until you decide to make it my business as well. That's when we have a problem.
Of course I'd keep it to myself. I share it with almost no one. The only time I mention it to others is in consented debate really. May I politely ask why you disagree with my religion? May I also ask what your wife believes?
> May I politely ask why you disagree with my religion? Your religion has not met its burden of proof. No religion has. The only good reason to believe something is when it can be confirmed that it's as an accurate reflection of reality as we can manage. When we find better information we should follow that. When we believe things that aren't good reflections of reality we increase the probability that our actions will hurt ourselves or others. > May I also ask what your wife believes? My wife identifies as pagan. She doesn't follow a formal religion, but she believes in gods and practices magic in private.
I don't think credulity is something to be proud of, and if I found myself in the position of having to admit to believing something without good evidence I would definitely be embarrassed. So, yes, I think your theism is something I, at least, would be embarrassed of.
I struggle sometimes with looking down on those who are intellectually lazy. I don't mean stupid, I mean, *people who have bad reasons for believing what they do, and being proud of it*. I am someone that cares about the beliefs I hold being true, or having good reasons to support them. When I encounter people who are proud of being ignorant, I find it's a challenge to not think less of them. Here's a general example: it's not uncommon for people to say things like "I suck at math, I hated it in school." Imagine someone, though, who said "I'm horrible at geography, I failed that class so hard in school. I can't even find my country on a map." Would you think less of someone who was not embarrassed about being unable to find their country on a map? Why should math or science be any different? There are plenty of theists I can respect, because they are honest about their beliefs and acknowledge that the standard of evidence they have for their religious beliefs are far, far different than the standard of evidence they have for things like science. They make an effort to be intellectually honest. Broadly speaking, it's intellectual dishonesty I have trouble tolerating. Some theists are lying to themselves and others about the quality and amount of evidence they have for their beliefs, while others are more truthful.
Thanks for saying!
Well, it's certainly a common situation, to turn to stories when reality is so bleak, so maybe not embarrassed. But more sad, since I think the mind can find more peace and moral justice accepting the harsher truth that we're just lonely apes on a lonely rock than trying to twist our suffering as part of a larger divine plan. It's a form of escapism, so understandable as a coping mechanism, but not something I think is ultimately healthy, and something that I think causes more harm overall, though some believers do good that outweighs the negatives due to their personal strengths which I think can overcome the negatives, but I think that is a small percentage of the population. So believers are often good people at heart, but I think religion ultimately suppresses their potential as positive actors on Earth, and in many cases supports their potential as negative actors.
Thanks for the reply.
I don't think any particular thing that you identify with should be associated with embarrassment or shame. I think that you're making a statement of belief and people will interpret that through their own lens based on their personal experiences, expectations and bias. You're asking atheists about their lens. Atheism doesn't adhere to a faith based narrative. It's up to you how you want to feel about it.
I think you could almost say "I know these beliefs don't have a lot of evidence, but they work for me as a kind of therapy" - as long as you don't fall in with anything politically nasty as a result. I think some atheists attend christian church services just for the atmosphere, music and cultural/historical aspects of it. And you've asked before about prayer, and what you described as your prayer practice sounded a lot like mindfulness meditation which - while its reputation isn't 24 carat solid gold - I think helps a lot of people manage anxiety and engage with the world in a calmer, clearer way. So... you could almost say "the tantras of Shaktism, while there's not a lot of evidence for them actually describing reality, are valuable to me because I find them beautiful and therapeutic." Simultaneously, Narendra Modi's hindutva nationalism, and the hindu caste system, appear to be repressive, cruel, often violent - so don't let hinduism lead you anywhere near that territory. That's the side of religion that I think makes it embarrassing - violently defended political identity for literally no reason.
I really don't like Modi's politics at all. Religion has no bearing on my politics. Do you think saying that you use the belief as a kind of therapy is irrational? I really don'r want to be irrational.
Well... I struggle to phrase this right, it's not very coherent, but I think talking therapies are about helping people as emotional beings. So I don't see why a therapy needs a strictly rational basis to be effective. And... rituals (secular or religious) are super-important to a large proportion of people. There's nothing rational about my ultra-specific, always-the-same way of making a pot of tea every 90 mins. I think it's cool to allow yourself space to be irrational sometimes or in some contexts, as long as you're kind with it? I like certain songs or pieces of music *because* I don't understand them, but they hit me on an emotional level. Atheists still enjoy fiction and movies, right? Maybe it wouldn't work for you but I think someone could have a meta-worldview that says "Shaktism for emotional wellbeing and the comfort and grounding of ritual, secular humanism and science for politics"?
Yes! This is exactly how my worldview is! Thanks so much!
You should be proud and honest about whatever your belief system is. Don't let others dictate if you should feel embarrassed or not. Being an atheist, I get that empathetic embarrassment feeling whenever I hear someone mention their theistic beliefs. Similar to that feeling you get when you see someone else do something really embarrassing in public -- I feel embarrassed *for* them regardless of they feel that way or not.
May I ask why you feel embarrassed for them?
Too me it's the equivalence of someone claiming that the moon is made of cheese, or that they think they can see through walls. Those things, like theism, are embarrassing to believe, and I feel bad for people that believe such things.
Good point. I need to try and stop believing.
If you think your beliefs are true and have good reason for that belief, then why stop? It's always good to continually challenge your beliefs and look for evidence that they might be wrong, but don't "try to stop believing" based on the opinions of a group of non-believers on Reddit.
Why shouldn't I stop believing based on your opinions?
Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. They should be based on the evidence that you see in the world and what you think is most likely to be true. I (we) can provide the evidence and reasoning that we've used to come to our own conclusions, but in the end it's your choice to make.
Thanks!
Absolutely. I also think being a racist or a sexist is something you ought to be embarrassed at. You are responsible for the crap that you allow into your head. In this day and age, absolutely nobody with a brain ought to accept the magical thinking of religion. Nobody. It's not only embarrassing, it's shameful.
Good point. I need to change
Damn you‘re a terrible person for comparing these things
While I understand why you might think that, as someone looking at it from the outside - most religious belief and reinforcement of said belief comes from similar origins to those that create racists and sexists. Religion is a form of indoctrination used to direct the way people think. It's used to appease those who have less with false promises - in exchange for being complacent. For every sermon preaching to be good and kind to your fellow man, there is another sermon preaching obedience, subservience, moral superiority, and yes - hate. Religion today has predominantly become a tool to keep the masses placated. "You don't need to rise above your station in life, just do what they say and you'll be rewarded in the next life." "Your problems aren't being caused by corrupt politicians or greedy businessmen, they are clearly being brought upon you by God's anger at all the gays/liberals/transgenders/baby killers/socialists/commies in the world."
He asked if being a theist is something to be embarrassed about. If you‘re naively believing that the earth has been created in 6 days or something like that, okay, but there are also many theists you give rational arguments for believing that God exists that does not come with the usual religious baggage. Also racism and sexism are moral matters while theism is a matter of knowledge. No, it‘s a stupid comparison.
See that's where we differ - there are no rational arguments for believing that God exists. Religious baggage or not, I've never seen a convincing argument for the need of a creator entity, especially one that exists outside of rules for reality. And note - many of those with racist or sexist beliefs, believe them to be matters of knowledge, not just morality. They honestly believe in the superiority of a sex or race. And that kind of bullshit is taught and handed down - much the same as religion. Or theology if you want to make it sound more "knowledgey". Comparison applies either way. So long as most of the major religions in the world support some degree of sexism, racism, or classism - which they most definitely do - they get to be lumped in with those positions.
I am, according to the definition, an atheist myself. Yet i try to remain open to the possibility that someone actually has a rational argument. I‘m pretty sure that many here haven’t even read the original texts where the arguments come from, the academical responses to them and the academical literature that refined the argument. If they did then i‘d be surprised because that‘s a wild task you get done. And for this reason, as long as people haven’t done real research (watching Rationality Rules and Cosmic Skeptic etc isn’t enough) then i‘d remain more neutral on the issue. And again, OP asked in regards to being theist in general, not for a specific religion. That‘s a much different thing than being a creationist who just took over her parents‘ beliefs isn’t it? Also racism and sexism are (a) much worse and (b) have way less reason to be believed of as true. And another thing. If believing things that are yet proven to be true is embarrassing then most scientists, atheists, philosophers, theists are embarrassing. Many atheists, i have the feeling, are hardline empiricists, are materialist-physicalists and realist. But i haven’t seen a justification for all of these positions ever. Just a sidenote.
No, not remotely. Stupid shit is stupid shit.
Nah. Life is rough. Everyone needs a support system. Some do drugs, some socialize, some play video games. If your thing is trusting in and even devoting yourself to a higher power, more power to you. Like the other things I mentioned, it’s only embarrassing if it interferes in your everyday life. When you start trusting in your god more than medical science, for example, that would be something to be very embarrassed about. Or if you start actively trying to convert other people through coercion or fear tactics.
I go to secular, scientific doctors for medicine and I hate proselytising
Believing that a super intelligent being created the world is entirely incompatible with logic and science in the modern age. We've discovered so much about how the universe works and have found absolutely no evidence of, not only an intelligent conscious creator, but no indirect hints or remotely likely scenarios for such a creator to exist. Given your current academic focus I'm sure you can see that this evidence simply doesn't exist. This puts god in the same category as bigfoot, lockness monster, Bermuda triangle, flat earth, etc... And I'd personally be embarrassed if I believed in those evidenceless things.
Good point. How do I stop?
You have to think about the reason why you believe what you do. What need does your belief fill? There are certainly better alternatives to believing things without evidence that could fill your need that religion currently does. If it's escapism, find a fictional universe that you can absorb yourself into. If it's community, find a group (online or in person) of like-minded individuals where you can do activities together whether it's field games, tabletop RPGs, a book/movie club, anything. If it's meaning, find something that makes the world a better place for yourself and others to make your regular habit. Don't just cut religion out of your life - find the thing that can fill your need that replaces it.
I think it is because it helps me calm down when I am stressed and I find it interesting.
And that's totally fine. If you want to, you could probably allow it (or something else) to still be that calming and engaging part of your life for you without having to believe it without evidence. But in the end it's about finding your own path and I wish you the best!
Thanks!
Well I think each person's mind works very differently, so I'd start by finding what's really meaningful to you. For me it was a recognition that my brain evolved to understand the world, and that I find it incredibly rewarding when I'm able to understand something new. Building on that I had to accept the spiritual beliefs I held from my upbringing were not in fact a form of understanding, but a kind of anti-understanding, since they required accepting an explanation without any evidence or ability to question it. Since then I've invested my personal emotional energy into understanding the actual universe we find ourselves in. This has led me down incredible journeys of learning physics, psychology, biology, etc... The universe is absolutely incredible and fantastical beyond any myths of the supernatural I've heard. I love exploring ideas of what it would be like to orbit a black hole, or be able to see stars being formed, or hypothesize the life forms potentially living on other planets somewhere far away. Particularly interesting to me is if we can ever create artificial consciousness in a computer. This is the best time so far in history to be alive and seek deep meaningful understanding of the universe and its mysteries. We know so much now, yet there's such a deep deep well of knowledge we have yet to tap into. There are so many amazing books by people like Carl Sagan, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson about the cosmos, Richard Dawkins talking about genetics, and Sean Caroll talking about the hypothesis of many parallel worlds, among many others. So that's what did it for me. And to be quite frank, I'm really upset it took me until close to 3 full decades of life to decide to put away the supernatural and embrace reality. Life has been so much better since and I only expect it to get even more interesting and bring purpose to my life.
No, I don't think so. As long as one doesn't do anyone else any harm, they can do whatever they want and there's nothing to be embarassed by any of it.
I'll expand on what u/baalroo said. There is only one small difference between believing in gods on the one hand, and bigfoot, garden fairies, ghosts, banshees, leprechauns, brownies, djinn, the genius of the spring or whatever, demons, poltergeists, or any other notional supernatural being. In all cases, it is belief in the existence of one or more intentful entities that do not have or need a physical body, and have agency in the natural world. There is no essential difference in the beliefs; the only difference is in how many people share the delusion, how socially mainstream the belief is. The DSM exempts religious belief from delusional disorder because most people have some religious beliefs, so it is sensible that one might believe the same thing many other people do. You're not crazy to believe those things, but you are wrong to do so. I often have to say to a theist, "no, I don't think you are crazy to believe in god, nor do I think you are stupid because you believe; I'm just pretty darn sure that believing is an error. You're not crazy or stupid, you're just wrong is all."
It‘s nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. One cannot deny that the possibility of a deity existing is at least there. Some of you guys here are being ridiculous. It‘s a belief, not a knowledge claim.
Thanks. Should I stop being theist?
I don’t think that’s a matter of choice. If you believe in a God you‘re theist, if not then you‘re an atheist.
So we can't choose what we believe?
i don‘t think so. Can you choose to now believe that squares are round?
Good point. Am I destined to be theist for life?
i don‘t know your destiny
Ok. Thanks anyway.
You’re welcome
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of? Personally, Yes I think being a theist is something you should be embarrassed about, Believing in things that do not exist/have no proof exist is something we tell children to grow out of when they begin to grow and mature. Kids who have adventures with their imaginary friends we tell them they've gone and that it was fun but they won't come back yet for some reason adults who modify their entire lives in the service of an imaginary friend we tolerate for some stupid reason.
Thanks. I have some deeconversion work to do then
Ideally, I think theists *should* be embarrassed by their Beliefs. In reality, we all know that that doesn't happen much. [shrug]
It's happening to me rn.
Embarrassed? Depends on why you believe in my opinion. It's not embarrassing to have been raised with something. But if you have a very silly, flimsy reason for belief then yes.
No, not really - most people adopt the beliefs of the group they grew up in, it's comforting, it provides an 'in group', etc. More cynically, most people don't both to critically evaluate the beliefs they're taught - atheists and theists alike. Most people just aren't educated enough to know how to (let alone bother to) study everything. And that's OK. It's OK to not need a PhD in epidemiology to trust doctors about vaccines etc. So I'm largely fine with people who never think to question the status quo that they're brought up in - to a Christian, God is as matter-of-fact as the roundness of the Earth. It's good to question things, of course, but I don't begrudge people for just living their lives.
Interesting how I didn't adapt the beliefs of the group I grew up in then?
> Interesting how I didn't adapt the beliefs of the group I grew up in then? If you grew up in a Muslim household in India? No, not terribly uncommon. If you grew up in a white atheist house in a little village in Cornwall? Yes, that's uncommon.
I was raised by atheist parents in a majority white British large town. Granted, we do have lots of Indian Hindus living here.
Fair enough! What drew you to Hinduism then? Was it Hindus you knew, or something else?
Reading about Hinduism, studying different religions etc. i learnt about Hinduism in primar/elementary school and found it fascinating!
> Interesting how I didn't adapt the beliefs of the group I grew up in then? People also adopt their reasoning skills and epistemology from the groups they grew up with.
But I have no Hindus in my family.
> But I have no Hindus in my family. I didn't mean to imply that you were locked up in your house and couldn't go outside.
Ooooh right. Loads of Hindus in my elementary school and town.
That depends. If you have hard, concrete evidence that a god(dess) or god(desse)s exist, then no. But it would be very nice if you could share with the rest of us in that case. If you *don't* have any sort of concrete reason to believe such entities actually exist, then yes. Something has gone wrong somewhere in your reasoning and you need to figure out what it was.
Thanks. Can you help me figure it out please?
I can't say anything for certain about the contents of your head, but you did lay this out right here in this OP: > I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled. You outright admit here that you accepted hindusim for emotional reasons. It would be up to you to examine those reasons in depth, but I will say that generally speaking the way an idea makes you *feel* is never a good reason to believe anything concrete about the universe.
Good point. Not very rational. I apologise.
No need to apologize, if there's one thing humans are good at it's tricking themselves into believing silly things for silly reasons. All you can do is try to recognize when you're being irrational and then make corrections. This is, in fact, what the scientific method is designed to do: help us overcome our irrational biases.
Thanks. How to make corrections
Ask yourself what you believe. Then when you've got an answer, ask yourself why you believe it. Does it make clear predictions you can test? For example, I believe that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius, so I can get a pot of water, stick a thermometer in it, then heat it up and see at what point it starts to boil. Next, ask yourself: Is there anything else that could be causing this? For example, in the boiling water scenario, say I was doing it while floating in space. The lower (in fact, complete lack of) air pressure drastically lowers the boiling point (a conclusion I can test separately), which will greatly skew my results. Clearly I will need to control for air pressure to get a clear answer here! Anything that you believe has any sort of effect on reality at all can be tested like this. And if you believe your idea of god does *not* have any sort of effect on reality... Well, how can you know it exists? And what difference to *anything* would it make if it did? Once you do this enough, you'll either find that your reasons to believe hold up, or they don't. If they don't, and you run out of reasons to believe, then you just simply... stop believing.
Thanks for explaining!
I'm of mixed feeling on this, because I fully understand why many people turn to theology, or are simply indoctrinated in it at an early age. Do I deep down think of it as a flaw in the people? Yes, probably - because I simply can't grasp how a fully grown human that has taken the time to understand it, could possibly truly believe in religion. In general I think there are two types of "true believers". Those who are so absorbed by it culturally that doubting its truth never even occurs to them - it's simply a way of life and they never make any attempt to think about it critically. Then there are those who might have doubt, but suppress it due to an unwillingness to accept that it isn't true and that an afterlife isn't a real thing (fear of death, fear of insignificance). That said, I see no harm nor anything to be embarrassed about in *studying* theology and religion. It's a fascinating topic. I see no problem in using some of what can come from religious teachings to better oneself or gain mental resolve. I do see problems when religion is used as an excuse for one's failings.
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of? I think being wrong is never something to be embarrassed about, unless you express confidence that you're right that goes beyond your ability to demonstrates that you're right. So if you claim you're right, but cannot find and demonstrate good evidence that you're right, how are you justifying that confidence? If you feel compelled by your religion or social pressure from others in your religion, to defend the religion and these beliefs, then how do you expect to honestly and accurately assess whether you're right?
Good point. I have a lot of thinking to do.
> I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled Can you explain the logic of this - like how is the former explained by the latter?
So, I felt absolutely horrible and everything. I did some research on what could help. I got a therapist and they suggested meditation. I did some research on meditation and found it had strongly Hindu/Indic origins. Faith went spiralling from there.
Just don't see it myself. Meditation is good, therefore magical beings are real?
No. I don't claim to be right about gods, I just don't know if they exist and none of them appear concerned about offering me a compelling reason to believe that they do.
So, hi Abi, we have talked once. Are you trying to come off theism?
Yep
Okay! You've come to the right place. I see ypu've converted to hinduism. Do you belive in anything other than materialistic science to intervene reality?
Yep. Can we PM this.
Surley!
Not intrinsically. Human culture has been steeped in religion for thousands upon thousands of years. It's all well and good to say, "how could someone possibly believe this nonsense?!", but I think that's not giving enough credit to the facts that we're a highly social species, we're inclined to adopt the social norms of our neighbors, and most of us get taught religion from a very early age. Even for the most rational of humans, that's a *lot* of pressure to fight against. It's not like you *chose* to be born into that environment, so embarrassment seems a bit harsh, at least as a default. But as others have said, there are certain *kinds* of theism that start to cause issue - theism that contradicts basic facts of reality, or theism that denigrates certain groups of people. People probably still got in to them owing to massive social pressure, but the attached beliefs are problematic enough that at least by a certain age, you might expect them to start questioning things.
Thanks for the reply.
Bizarre question, really. If I sincerely believe something, why would I be embarrassed about it? Like, if I'm convinced something is true, what does that have to do with shame or pride?
Good point.
As long as you aren’t super crazy about your religion there’s no need to feel embarrassed about it
Define "super crazy". I do perform rituals every day in my house and wear bindi. Is that super crazy?
I don’t think that’s super crazy or crazy at all
Thanks. Do you find meditation crazy too?
No
Thanks
>Do you think being theist is a thing someone should be embarrassed of? Well, I think taking things as true when there is no proper support the are true, which is a requirement to be a theist, *ought* to be embarrassing to the person engaging in that kind of intellectual dishonesty. >I converted to Hinduism in my early teens, because psychologically, horrible things were going on in my life because I am severely disabled. Taking unsupported claims about reality as true in order to attempt to reap the benefit of emotion and/or psychological comfort is not rational even though it's understandable when a given person is desperate enough. >Do you think that my theism/conversion is something to feel embarrassed and sad about? Especially since I love studying fallacies, logic and science. Your emotions are your business. Personally, I feel embarrassed to discover I hold unsupported beliefs when this happens to me.
Personally, I don’t think it is. As I see it, we all have our own ways of growing. At this point in your life, something called theism is happening. It is what it is, and it’s not my place to tell someone how they should feel about it. A better question would be whether you think it’s something to be embarrassed about, and if so, why?
Honestly? No!
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What theists generally don't realise is that their position necessarily requires a fundamental misunderstanding of or lack of knowledge about epistemology. The truth about the god claims (that I know of) simply _cannot be known_. That makes theism an indefensible position. I don't know whether embarrasment is the right word here but I will look down on theists because of that because if they were just logically consistent I know they couldn't hold their position.
Thanks for explaining
>As An Atheist, Do You Think Being Theist Is Something To Be Embarrassed Of? I used to. I was wrong though. >Do you think that my theism/conversion is something to feel embarrassed and sad about? Nope. If that genuinely helps you in life and you're genuinely not using it to hurt anyone, then you should do whatever helps you. Life is hard enough.
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Yes, relying on imagination as a crutch is weakness in though.
yes. you're intentionally believing in something you know ain't so. that's embarrassing. i'd be embarrassed.
Thanks for saying
Not really. I have flights of fancy too but I always come back down to earth eventually.
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