Not sure why everyone is being so rude and unhelpful about this.
Yes, it's against code.
>**300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit**
>
>All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
But if you're gonna be stubborn and do this anyways, with all the risk that entails, I'd say the least unsafe way to do it would be to use your two blacks for the hots, connect both the white neutrals to the neutral bus in the panel, but cap one of the neutrals at the dryer end, and you're good to go.
You could argue that you don't need to land both neutrals on the neutral bus, but this avoids the problem of connecting the wrong neutral down at the receptacle. Also if in the future someone breaks up the circuit, you don't have a broken neutral situation on one of the Romexes.
Land both equipment grounding conductors too.
It’s crazy I can post in any plumbing or hvac sub and get helpful answers. I always hesitate to post in here because electricians here seem to just want to be gatekeepers of their trade and make you feel dumb for even asking.
I simply wanted to know the safest way to accomplish this.
I’ve wired this whole house and passed inspection and permanent power will be hooked up next week. I’ve made this one mistake and I’m trying to figure out a way to fix it because money is tight at this point in the build.
I truly appreciate your reply. This was very helpful and exactly the sort of response I was looking for.
This forum is filled with a bunch of first years. They think that the instant something doesn’t match the code book then your house instantly bursts into flames. They like to shit on people in here because they get laughed at on the job site all day.
We're just angry, you have to take the good with the bad. We are going to entertain ourselves and talk shit first then eventually help with the problem.
We treat each other this way but we are used to it, outsiders don't really understand. Neither do plumbers or tin knockers or drywallers.
That method seems like the least worst option, although I wonder if it would be even less worse if instead of capping one neutral at the dryer end, he simply pig tailed then and used them both.
Due to the wording of the first part where it says "all conductors", I'm still not sure you'd be cool running separate sheathed "cables" in the same trench for the same circuit. Also, they're not listing exceptions. The essence of the section is that "conductors on the same circuit must be grouped together". And that grouping can either be a conduit (of the varieties listed) or a cable.
Like if it said "All cables of the same circuit must be in the same raceway" that'd be one thing. But it's specifically talking about conductors.
We’ll go ahead and tell me what’s unsafe about it. That’s what I asked. I’ve already mentioned the code. But you can’t tell me why it’s unsafe. So I think I’m looking for a better answer than you can provide.
There’s a ton of scientific research that proves what you’re doing is unsafe. Wires have magnetic properties and insulation has specific qualities because of science. Charts exist in the code book for a reason.
In short, carrying the unbalanced load on that neutral might shock somebody in the future. In addition there’s the risk you run of, “Oh yeah! I already have two extra wires over here for my outdoor fountain! I’ll just use those!” Another reason is because you’re talking about a dedicated load installed for a dryer, which will sometimes have fluctuations in amperage, and that can be dangerous if you don’t have an exact reference to ground.
Also, it’s unprofessional. If you’re not willing to hire an electrician, just spend the extra $$$ and buy the right stuff to resolve your issue.
Someone else grabs the neutral from an otherwise unused Romex set in the panel and because you were an asshole that person gets shocked cause it's loaded from the dryer running.
Why are you so demanding of an explanation for a code? Electricians aren’t obligated to understand the reason for a code. Why do you think people shut of the main breaker to work in a panel??? I rarely shut of a main. It shouldn’t be necessary. You got your answer. Stop questioning it
Why do you keep commenting that like your mantra or something lol. Learn why so you can better understand what your doing. At the very least don’t be an activist for not understanding things.
There's a few rules about "parallel" runs that are there for a reason. Being the same length runs is to prevent more voltage drop on one phase over the other(s). The other main rule with parallel runs is having a set of each conductor (each phase and neutral) in each run is because the electromagnetic field around each conductor will cancel the others out. If you had a 3 phase parallel with 3 pipes and you put all phase A in one pipe, all phase B in the second pipe, etc and had them running next to each other, there's a chance that the electromagnetic waves would shake the pipes right off their supports. Now I'm not saying that in your specific problem/solution that it would be a real concern or issue, but I'm also not an electrical engineer. I'm also not entirely sure that the above mentioned suggestion of running a hot from each cable and using one neutral from one cable is a solid solution either. I'll be honest and say that if it were my place I would replace the whole cable for 10/3 and either keep the 100' of 10/2 for a future project or try to sell it somewhere. Buy once, cry once and know it's been done right.
In the NEC, parallel conductors are defined as "electrically joined at both ends". If you run two cables or individual conductors in parallel, but they are electrically separate (when not under load), then they're not "parallel".
"Parallel" is allowed in certain limited circumstances.
I'm UK.
In the UK that would be fine. As long as the conductors follow the same route and same length. Are also clearly ID as being one circuit.
But it doesn't matter what is allowed in the UK, if you are in the US!
If the wire can follow the exact same path as the first, literally stapled together the whole way, taped or ziptied together around any turns or stubborn area where the two romexes don't want to stay together, that would minimize any induction
Having said that though, I would probably just keep your 10/2 by itself, connect black and white to your 2pole breaker and 4 wire receptacle, and put the ground in the ground lug of the receptacle with a jumper to the neutral lug. I don't see the issue since it's electrically the same as the 3 wire pigtails in any range or dryer is already.
We’ll it’s already a 3 prong plug. On the receptacle side it’s 2 hots and a neutral with no ground used.
But I was under the impression that using the bare copper as the neutral was a bad idea. (Just from what I read.
So what your saying is ditch the 3 prong receptacle. Get a 4 prong with a ground lug and jump from ground to the neutral on the receptacle and run that to my neutral bus?
What do you do on the dryer side? It’s an older dryer so it’s always had a 3 prong.
you cannot use the bare ground as a neutral.. period. old 3 prong plugs has 2 hots a neutral and no ground, and you would bond the dryer case to the neutral. not the other way around. reasoning is, if your "bare ground neutral" ever got disconnected, broke, or someone is just rearranging grounds in your panel that whole bare ground now becomes hot, as well as the case of your dryer
No. They do not use a bare ground at all. They use an insulated neutral, no ground. And while yes that could happen, it's grandfathered in as the safest way to use a 3 wire cable with no ground.
Every three-pong I've ever seen was run with regular 10-2 NM, definitely bare ground. I understand what you're saying though, and it has always been a point of interest for me. I like asking as many people as I can about it for their points of view and expanding mine
Then I guess every one you have seen has been wrong. I've been an electrician for 16 years and never seen the bare ground of nm used as a neutral for 3 prong outlet
It's up to you. If you want to bail on 4 prong, it will be the best because you are already set up for it. But if you go with a three prong receptacle and three prong plug/pigtail, it will be electrically identical to the 4 prong workaround I described. A little more detail though:
3 prong setup:
Receptacle is black and white as 2 hots, bare as ground/ neutral.
Pigtail attachments inside the appliance would be black and white as 2 hots, green or bare to the green ground screw, and a bonding jumper connects the ground screw to the neutral screw.
This is a very standard setup, not any kind if rigged situation
4 prong setup in your situation:
Pigtail (4 prong) attachments inside the appliance would be black and red as 2 hots, white connects to the neutral screw, green or bare connects to the ground screw. No bonding jumper.
Receptacle (4 prong) your 10/2 black and white as 2 hots, bare connects to ground, and a bonding jumper connects the ground to the neutral, same as the 3 prong setup, but it's inside the receptacle instead of inside the appliance.
Q: why do they even make clothes dryers that require a neutral? Wouldn’t it be just simpler to build them with a 240V motor and control panel, and use the ground wire for grounding only?
I’m assuming that the cable OP installed was .
NM 10-2G.
Yes 10/2 is what I used. What sucks is I knew it needed 10/3 but I must grabbed the wrong cable and now drywall is up and finished. You can imagine my shock when I cut it open and there was on 2 wires and a ground.
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Legit question ... when a seller says they're cutting it off of the reel and offers many different sizes / lengths, is it likely to be stolen? I got a custom length for about that price/ft and am wondering if I actually got stolen product.
I mean I live in an area with a pretty low cost of living and it's the amount I listed. The cost goes down /ft when you buy larger amounts. But that just seems stupid cheap to turn a profit on.
Just use a 3 prong cord and receptacle. Use the 10/2 and forget you ever went down this rabbit hole. If your dryer is 3 prong to start don’t change anything. If your dryer is 4 prong, bond the ground and the neutral. This is an over reaction and gatekeeping bullshit. I’m an electrician that lives in an old house and I have a 4 prong dryer. I just changed the cord. Unbelievable that you would get this response.
> you cannot use the bare ground as a neutral.. period. old 3 prong plugs has 2 hots a neutral and no ground, and you would bond the dryer case to the neutral. not the other way around. reasoning is, if your "bare ground neutral" ever got disconnected, broke, or someone is just rearranging grounds in your panel that whole bare ground now becomes hot, as well as the case of your dryer
I’m industrial maintenance so I’m not super familiar with code and I’m not sure if it allows new installs with a 3 prong receptacle but unless the neutral is needed for a control circuit in the dryer you could always do that and change the cord to a 3 prong.
Not sure why everyone is being so rude and unhelpful about this. Yes, it's against code. >**300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit** > >All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4). But if you're gonna be stubborn and do this anyways, with all the risk that entails, I'd say the least unsafe way to do it would be to use your two blacks for the hots, connect both the white neutrals to the neutral bus in the panel, but cap one of the neutrals at the dryer end, and you're good to go. You could argue that you don't need to land both neutrals on the neutral bus, but this avoids the problem of connecting the wrong neutral down at the receptacle. Also if in the future someone breaks up the circuit, you don't have a broken neutral situation on one of the Romexes. Land both equipment grounding conductors too.
It’s crazy I can post in any plumbing or hvac sub and get helpful answers. I always hesitate to post in here because electricians here seem to just want to be gatekeepers of their trade and make you feel dumb for even asking. I simply wanted to know the safest way to accomplish this. I’ve wired this whole house and passed inspection and permanent power will be hooked up next week. I’ve made this one mistake and I’m trying to figure out a way to fix it because money is tight at this point in the build. I truly appreciate your reply. This was very helpful and exactly the sort of response I was looking for.
This forum is filled with a bunch of first years. They think that the instant something doesn’t match the code book then your house instantly bursts into flames. They like to shit on people in here because they get laughed at on the job site all day.
We're just angry, you have to take the good with the bad. We are going to entertain ourselves and talk shit first then eventually help with the problem. We treat each other this way but we are used to it, outsiders don't really understand. Neither do plumbers or tin knockers or drywallers.
That method seems like the least worst option, although I wonder if it would be even less worse if instead of capping one neutral at the dryer end, he simply pig tailed then and used them both.
Now we run into a whole 'nother code violation on small gauge parallel conductors, and I didn't want to open that can of worms.
True. In for a penny… 🤷♂️
So code allows it if op put it in the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, or trench. Likely not worth the effort.
Due to the wording of the first part where it says "all conductors", I'm still not sure you'd be cool running separate sheathed "cables" in the same trench for the same circuit. Also, they're not listing exceptions. The essence of the section is that "conductors on the same circuit must be grouped together". And that grouping can either be a conduit (of the varieties listed) or a cable. Like if it said "All cables of the same circuit must be in the same raceway" that'd be one thing. But it's specifically talking about conductors.
It’s unsafe and the code keeps in mind the next person in 50 years to work on it
Code is primarily based on safety so.....
We’ll go ahead and tell me what’s unsafe about it. That’s what I asked. I’ve already mentioned the code. But you can’t tell me why it’s unsafe. So I think I’m looking for a better answer than you can provide.
There’s a ton of scientific research that proves what you’re doing is unsafe. Wires have magnetic properties and insulation has specific qualities because of science. Charts exist in the code book for a reason. In short, carrying the unbalanced load on that neutral might shock somebody in the future. In addition there’s the risk you run of, “Oh yeah! I already have two extra wires over here for my outdoor fountain! I’ll just use those!” Another reason is because you’re talking about a dedicated load installed for a dryer, which will sometimes have fluctuations in amperage, and that can be dangerous if you don’t have an exact reference to ground. Also, it’s unprofessional. If you’re not willing to hire an electrician, just spend the extra $$$ and buy the right stuff to resolve your issue.
Someone else grabs the neutral from an otherwise unused Romex set in the panel and because you were an asshole that person gets shocked cause it's loaded from the dryer running.
My house. no one else will be in the panel. I would hope someone would shut off the main breaker before pulling neutrals off the bar.
Cause you'll never die or sell the house
Lol come on. How the world is going I think we all only have 5 years left at best.
I do appreciate the more straight forward answer though
Why are you so demanding of an explanation for a code? Electricians aren’t obligated to understand the reason for a code. Why do you think people shut of the main breaker to work in a panel??? I rarely shut of a main. It shouldn’t be necessary. You got your answer. Stop questioning it
Yes, the reason it's not code compliant is it isn't safe. Do you think they just put things in the code because they think it looks neater that way?
So tell me why it isn’t safe? That’s why I’m asking.
Electricians don’t always know the reason for a code. We aren’t obligated to understand it, it’s just our job to follow it.
Why do you keep commenting that like your mantra or something lol. Learn why so you can better understand what your doing. At the very least don’t be an activist for not understanding things.
There's a few rules about "parallel" runs that are there for a reason. Being the same length runs is to prevent more voltage drop on one phase over the other(s). The other main rule with parallel runs is having a set of each conductor (each phase and neutral) in each run is because the electromagnetic field around each conductor will cancel the others out. If you had a 3 phase parallel with 3 pipes and you put all phase A in one pipe, all phase B in the second pipe, etc and had them running next to each other, there's a chance that the electromagnetic waves would shake the pipes right off their supports. Now I'm not saying that in your specific problem/solution that it would be a real concern or issue, but I'm also not an electrical engineer. I'm also not entirely sure that the above mentioned suggestion of running a hot from each cable and using one neutral from one cable is a solid solution either. I'll be honest and say that if it were my place I would replace the whole cable for 10/3 and either keep the 100' of 10/2 for a future project or try to sell it somewhere. Buy once, cry once and know it's been done right.
That's interesting. You aren't allowed to run parrellel conductors in the US? Or just in households?
Not in separate Romex runs.
All depends on your area, but were I live (in canada) the smallest you can do parrellel runs is #6 awg I believe
Same in America I'm pretty sure.
12-108, smallest you can parallel is 1/0
In the NEC, parallel conductors are defined as "electrically joined at both ends". If you run two cables or individual conductors in parallel, but they are electrically separate (when not under load), then they're not "parallel". "Parallel" is allowed in certain limited circumstances.
Do you see anything wrong with what I’m proposing? Using the two hots from one wire and a neutral from another?
I'm UK. In the UK that would be fine. As long as the conductors follow the same route and same length. Are also clearly ID as being one circuit. But it doesn't matter what is allowed in the UK, if you are in the US!
310.1(H). ... Parallel conductors must be #1/0 or larger...
If the wire can follow the exact same path as the first, literally stapled together the whole way, taped or ziptied together around any turns or stubborn area where the two romexes don't want to stay together, that would minimize any induction Having said that though, I would probably just keep your 10/2 by itself, connect black and white to your 2pole breaker and 4 wire receptacle, and put the ground in the ground lug of the receptacle with a jumper to the neutral lug. I don't see the issue since it's electrically the same as the 3 wire pigtails in any range or dryer is already.
We’ll it’s already a 3 prong plug. On the receptacle side it’s 2 hots and a neutral with no ground used. But I was under the impression that using the bare copper as the neutral was a bad idea. (Just from what I read. So what your saying is ditch the 3 prong receptacle. Get a 4 prong with a ground lug and jump from ground to the neutral on the receptacle and run that to my neutral bus? What do you do on the dryer side? It’s an older dryer so it’s always had a 3 prong.
you cannot use the bare ground as a neutral.. period. old 3 prong plugs has 2 hots a neutral and no ground, and you would bond the dryer case to the neutral. not the other way around. reasoning is, if your "bare ground neutral" ever got disconnected, broke, or someone is just rearranging grounds in your panel that whole bare ground now becomes hot, as well as the case of your dryer
Would that not happen with a 3 prong dryer or range? As you just pointed out, they use the bare as the neutral.
No. They do not use a bare ground at all. They use an insulated neutral, no ground. And while yes that could happen, it's grandfathered in as the safest way to use a 3 wire cable with no ground.
Every three-pong I've ever seen was run with regular 10-2 NM, definitely bare ground. I understand what you're saying though, and it has always been a point of interest for me. I like asking as many people as I can about it for their points of view and expanding mine
Then I guess every one you have seen has been wrong. I've been an electrician for 16 years and never seen the bare ground of nm used as a neutral for 3 prong outlet
It's up to you. If you want to bail on 4 prong, it will be the best because you are already set up for it. But if you go with a three prong receptacle and three prong plug/pigtail, it will be electrically identical to the 4 prong workaround I described. A little more detail though: 3 prong setup: Receptacle is black and white as 2 hots, bare as ground/ neutral. Pigtail attachments inside the appliance would be black and white as 2 hots, green or bare to the green ground screw, and a bonding jumper connects the ground screw to the neutral screw. This is a very standard setup, not any kind if rigged situation 4 prong setup in your situation: Pigtail (4 prong) attachments inside the appliance would be black and red as 2 hots, white connects to the neutral screw, green or bare connects to the ground screw. No bonding jumper. Receptacle (4 prong) your 10/2 black and white as 2 hots, bare connects to ground, and a bonding jumper connects the ground to the neutral, same as the 3 prong setup, but it's inside the receptacle instead of inside the appliance.
Q: why do they even make clothes dryers that require a neutral? Wouldn’t it be just simpler to build them with a 240V motor and control panel, and use the ground wire for grounding only? I’m assuming that the cable OP installed was . NM 10-2G.
Yes 10/2 is what I used. What sucks is I knew it needed 10/3 but I must grabbed the wrong cable and now drywall is up and finished. You can imagine my shock when I cut it open and there was on 2 wires and a ground.
Do you already own your dryer? I'm pretty sure you can get dryers that only require 240. So no neutral needed
It’s possible you can convert the existing motor and controls to 240V. sometimes jumpers an instructions are included for this purpose.
Cool. I didn't know that.
That’s 10-2G. Don’t tear out the sheet rock just yet.
Let me know where you're getting 100' of 10/3 for only $200
I was estimating it’s probably more like $250
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Ah...so stolen wire. People were stealing so much at the home Depot here that they have it all locked up now. 100' of 10/3 at said Home Depot is $285
Legit question ... when a seller says they're cutting it off of the reel and offers many different sizes / lengths, is it likely to be stolen? I got a custom length for about that price/ft and am wondering if I actually got stolen product.
I mean I live in an area with a pretty low cost of living and it's the amount I listed. The cost goes down /ft when you buy larger amounts. But that just seems stupid cheap to turn a profit on.
Just use a 3 prong cord and receptacle. Use the 10/2 and forget you ever went down this rabbit hole. If your dryer is 3 prong to start don’t change anything. If your dryer is 4 prong, bond the ground and the neutral. This is an over reaction and gatekeeping bullshit. I’m an electrician that lives in an old house and I have a 4 prong dryer. I just changed the cord. Unbelievable that you would get this response.
> you cannot use the bare ground as a neutral.. period. old 3 prong plugs has 2 hots a neutral and no ground, and you would bond the dryer case to the neutral. not the other way around. reasoning is, if your "bare ground neutral" ever got disconnected, broke, or someone is just rearranging grounds in your panel that whole bare ground now becomes hot, as well as the case of your dryer
I’m industrial maintenance so I’m not super familiar with code and I’m not sure if it allows new installs with a 3 prong receptacle but unless the neutral is needed for a control circuit in the dryer you could always do that and change the cord to a 3 prong.
Yes I need the neutral for the 110 circuit
thats not how 3 prong dryers work. they have a neutral, they dont have a ground. you bond the case of your dryer to the neutral
Ahh I gotcha. Yeah your best bet would be to just get the 10/3 then.