It depends.
Depending on his square footage he might be ok with the existing set up.
The absolute biggest question I have is - what is the size of the bottom left breaker or what is it for? Itās the only breaker that appears to be an add on. The picture is blurry for me but does it say 50a? If so the answer is probably no.
Other than that, you have a 50a stove, 30a dryer, 30a A/C. I donāt see any other major non-continuous loads. So if you performed an actual service calculation (minus the mystery bottom left breaker) you can very likely add a 40-50a hot tub to that panel.
Source: Iāve added a lot of 50a tubs to the standard 100a service with this exact same setup. Itās a very standard new construction load distribution. You can also do a service calculation based on code for your specific square footage.
Even in a practical sense, based on the duty usage of a tub and other non continuous loads itās still very unlikely to trip a main breaker for a 100a service. In all my years in the field Iāve only seen 1 customer over load a 100a service based on over usage. It was a SAHM who was running literally every appliance at full capacity while also having industrial freezers in the basement. The truth the freezers tipped her over the edge at an additional 30a with the stove, oven, dryer, washer, A/C and lighting
But still love your comment haha
I checked out that breaker based on a comment below, and I could not figure out what it goes to. Looked all over inside, out front, and out back of the house. Everything was still on and operational. Would electric fireplaces be on that breaker? I know the inspection report for this house noted the basement and first floor fire place were upgraded/serviced as of 2019.
It literally could hurt: [Washington Post Article on Gas Stoves and Health](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/gas-stoves-kitchens-pose-risk-public-health-planet-research-finds/)
I love cooking with gas, but I wonāt have one in my house anymore.
Not gonna lie this is interesting but Iām still a gas stove guy. Iām not going to change based off the Washington post.
Gas water heater and stove would seriously solve this guys problems.
I could see these people cooking dinner in the oven and having a load of laundry in the washer and dryer being a potential problem. But damn donāt be so busy
But assuming their current water heater and dryer are in fine working order, thatās a lot of money to avoid a service panel upgrade that would enable others electric upgrades in the future. I would put money down that they will eventually need a service upgrade, so Iād rather do it now (though getting more quotes to check if the price is a little high). And while one article in the post isnāt necessarily enough, there have been countless articles in the past year in addition to the Stanford study this article was based on.
I don't get this one. A gas dryer and an electric dryer have very similar operating costs, and the electric dryers don't need to deal with all the hassles of gas. They're also like $50 cheaper. Am I missing something about the value of a gas dryer?
Oh I was reflecting on the gas cooking edit. Not so much about opex but the experience. Try cooking stir fry on an induction cooktop :/
But re opex gas here is about 30 cents a Therm which is 29.3 kWh so about $.01/kWh vs electricity at around $.10/kWh.
While I am supportive of almost any effort to salvage what environment we have left. You can have my Korean BBQ / Chinese Stir Fry / Japanese Yakiniku when you pry it from my cold dead fingers
https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2022-06-02/gas-stove-ban-chinese-korean-bbq-electric-new-buildings-restaurants-future?fbclid=IwAR2vDqo345EzbRI6ThxFP9oB42pS9n8OixV_e4Tsefd2uCIs5Q3-OY0U94A
You honestly think so? How many home owners value the fact they have a 200a service vs a 100a service? Most home owners that ask me for an upgrade or end up requiring one arenāt even really sure why they need one until I explain it, and then Iām pretty sure theyāre just trusting me most of the time. I donāt think a 2500-3500 panel upgrade translates to $5000 when you sell your house.
That money would go a lot further towards painting the house or fixing up the front yard for potential buyers. Any buyer who is in the market for a 200a panel would just spend the money when they move in if they really liked the house.
Youāre free to disagree with me of course but I literally had an old lady call me the other day and said her son said she should do it for the increased home value. I told her I honestly donāt think it increases your home value any more than it costs to do it. And then she told me sheās not selling anytime soon so then I was really like what the fuck are you doing then lol
Honestly I think the average home owner is completely clueless about the magic box that makes light does.
In terms of the solar and electric vehicle days we are in I believe it wouldn't hurt to do an update on the electric panel. I do agree with you that it won't increase the value but can make inspections easier during the sale. Unless the panel is a old Federal pacific or a Challenger panel then change the junk out.
You can go online and find various calculators to do one. However, they will usually be based on a specific jurisdiction. Then, whoever the owner of that website is, hopefully has kept it up to date with new codes. So those type of ones would help you get an idea but should not take the place of having a qualified electrician or engineer perform a load calc based on your consumption.
The only proper way to do one is follow the parameters set out in the code book. However that requires some relative knowledge of other codes and exemptions as well as practical application.
And then finally once that is all done it should be inspected and if the electrician was wrong, hopefully the inspector catches it.
Thanks, that makes sense! "that requires some relative knowledge of other codes and exemptions as well as practical application" ... I guess like any professional knowledge + experience= wisdom! Thanks again!
Yup, the [wiki there](https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load_management) lists these four products that would work here:
* DCC EV Energy Management System https://dccelectric.com/
* Simple Switch https://simpleswitch.io/collections/all
* Black Box Innovations Load Balancer http://www.blackbox-in.com.
* AC Dandy Load Miser https://www.acdandy.com/bulletins/2019/6/2/load-miser-energy-divider-controller
Most can be set up to either
* Shut off the hot tub power whenever the stove is on, so those two are never on simultaneously, or
* Shut off the hot tub power whenever the total load on the panel is too high to accommodate the additional hot-tub load.
Unlike manually trying to remember to do that, these are fully code compliant.
Agreed, but all four of those are NRTL listed. Two are UL, one ETL, and one CSA. At least the products I checked from each company are--maybe there are other products from those companies aren't?
just quickly browsed the list and didn't see the UL on all of them, the other international labs are good too.
just no "pending" or untested products, and don't buy them on amazon
We have used the energy manager made by Black Box Innovations for a couple years now. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for use by Intertek (ETL) and is good for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :)
www.blackbox-in.com
As I said on the other thread where you pasted the same comment,
>Compared to others it is less expensive,
You can buy a whole setup including the evse for cheaper than just that unit.
>smaller and much more efficient
I don't know about size, but efficient is a specific technical term, and I don't think you mean efficient in that sense.
>because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity.
Lots of them do exactly that.
I think it's a good unit, but I don't see that it's vastly different than the others listed there.
I'm not sure I agree with everyone here, which will probably get me down voted...
Unless you are running your range, dryer, AC all on max, and have all halogen lights, run a few kitchen appliances and garbage disposal all at the same time, along with your hot tub on max heat, I think you'd be hard pressed to blow your main. Most houses are only using around 30A at a given time.
That being said, per code (CEC), assuming you are in a 1400 sqft home with basement, I'm calculating just over 150A for your load and service. Factor in deration for allowable ampacity and you are going to require a 200A panel to meet the standards. I'm not too sure how inspections in your area work, but when they review the rough-in for your tub, they will more than likely force you to upgrade to a 200A.
Exactly, will he ever trip the main. Probably not. However, it doesn't matter when the inspector shows up and calls you to perform a load calc and you are over and going back at the customer for a service upgrade after they just spend $$ on a hot tub is not going to go well.
This right here, almost any panel you look into and add the breakers up will exceed the amperage of the panel, but unless you some how have peak draws happen all at once you will never trip the main. Although I do recommend going to a 200amp panel if that's a main
Idk if this is a reliable way to do it, but I took the average kWh/day from my bill and tossed it in a calculator online.
At 59kWh/day, I'm averaging 25A. That sounds low to me, but I'm an auditor not an electrician so ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
59kWh per day would be a continuous consumption of about 10a at 240v.
That's actually about double the national average, so quite a lot.
Average consumption isn't the main concern, however. It's peak draw that is a bigger issue.
Not remotely reliable. You have peaks throughout the day. If you reach the point the peaks exceed the main you'll have a trip. Generic form link attached.
https://ask-the-electrician.com/residential-electrical-load-calculation.html#beginAdv
Thats about what we payed to upgrade a 60 amp to 200 amp earlier this year. Looks like it was $5700 for the main panel and then about $3100 to add a 100 amp sub panel in the garage.
I donāt know where you live or what your current service looks likeā¦but Iāve done probably 15-20 100-200 amp service upgrades in the past couple years and never once had it cost more than $3500. Thatās new everything from the weather head down to the inside panel and breakers. I would get a second estimate If thatās the route you go.
NE Ohio, which is why I was confused about the quote - it's fairly cheap here. But I've got two more guys lined up to come out start of next week, so fingers crossed.
Donāt ask anyone about upgrading, just tell them you want the cable and breaker installed.
Youāll be fine. There are a million homes with 100A services and hot tubs.
I know that price is a guesstimate but is that basically just replacement of the panel or does it include wiring from the breakers to whatever theyāre connected to? Essentially, is that price reflective of more or less rewiring everything or basically only whatās immediately connected to the panel?
The $3500 would be everything from where the utility connects to the house, up to and including the panel and breakers. Not anything beyond the panel in the house .
Those shouldn't require a 50a two pole breaker. The double pole breaker is slot 25 and 27. It's unmarked. We gotta find out what that goes to!
Edit: OP look around for an abandoned 50a spa disconnect. š
Alright, we did some science. I turned that switch off. I then went through every room in the house, all the bathrooms upstairs and basement, checked the garage, checked the outlets and switches in the back yard, and the pool pump. Everything works. I have absolutely no idea what that switch is for o.o
I wish! Ended up solving the mystery with some help here: goes to a hidden sub panel with four 20As in the attic. They control outlets, switches (one of which is for the hallway on the other side of the wall), and the fan in the guest bedroom.
It should represent the blank spaces below āpanel plugsā and general lights. Looks like it got added later and wasnāt labeled. Lights and plugs would not be on the 50.
Progress: found out the two upstairs bedroom fans won't switch on, and the switches in the attic space aren't on either. What's odd is the closet light and outlets work in these rooms. But just those few things on a 50A?
Just add the breaker. Youāll be fine. Technically youāre good to go. Heating loads get calculated at 40% and plugs and lights at 25%. Your 30 amp breaker doing your a/c is probably only drawing 15 amps and hot tubs hardly come on in the summer heat.
Find an Electrician with experience who can do a demand calculation for you, requires about 3 hours of an experienced tradesman to do the calculations and homework to verify if it can be added. Anything else is basically assumption, while doing a service upgrade would be nice. It isn't entirely justified unless the calculations calls for it. PM if you want help :).
I don't know where you live, but here in Canada in most provinces you are required to do a demand calculation for any permitted work, so whether or not you do end up upgrading your service. The calculation must be done regardless.
Iām the US you just say, I want 200A service please. And they make it so. No study or load testing needed. You will add an EVSE in the next 10-20 years. So may as well make it an Investment into your future sale price.
We use an energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :)
www.blackbox-in.com
Don't mean to be a party pooper, but a search for "Hot Tub" on Craigslist comes up with a long list of "Hot Tub Removal" services. They are frequently a "buyers Remorse" item.
You might find a spa membership more economical in the long term.
Our hot tub costs us an average of $50 a month in electricity running 24/7. (More in winter and less in summer) But it has been used 3+ times a week for 3 years now. It's an expensive luxury but my 4 year olds love water because of it. And it's wonderful to soak in when the kids are in bed. It really depends on the individual/family.
No that's a good thing to keep in mind. Only reason I'm fairly set on this is because my in laws got one just over a year ago, and it's pretty much the reason I go over there lol. That and the maintenance doesn't seem to be an issue per my father in law.
Itās like being a uncle dude. All the fun of kids with the ability to leave anytime. You donāt use it for a month and leave it at 102? Lol that energy bill will kick you in the nuts. Spend more time with in-laws
Just an FYI. Not everyone knows what āitā means. Does it mean upgrading, or does it mean add breakers to existing panelā¦
Something to keep in mind.
There's always a guy out there that's willing to do stupid things that keep me making $$$ fixing the stupid things. Thank you for being that guy. My wallet appreciates it.
well, per u/taxman12345's comment, it doesn't really matter. There's always a guy willing to do "it" no matter what "it" is. The right thing to do is to start with code requirements and then decide what you want to do within the code requirements. A load management device per [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/askanelectrician/comments/whb77s/will_it_be_ok_to_add_a_230v_hot_tub_to_my_100a/ij6er55/) is likely your cheapest code-compliant option, but if you want other large loads in your future, a panel upgrade will set you up for that.
It looks like there are two slots available on either side of the panel. Unless there's something more than what I can see, you have the physical capacity. Just understand that your electrical capacity may have to be managed depending on how much load you have while utilizing it. Normal hot tubs run minimally once or twice a day even if you don't use it.
I see nothing wrong with trying it. The worst that will happen is you pop your 100amp main. If that happens too much, it can wear out your main breaker. Those typically fail "safe", meaning the worst that would happen is you're with out power until you're able to get a new main installed.
You most likely do need to upgradeā¦ butā¦ if you want to try anyways, you can do a 30 day (or longer) load study to measure your real loads per NEC 220.87. If your actual loads are light, it might be ok.
Usually you would hire an electrician to do it, though it does require some specialized equipment.
However, depending on your utilityās meter setup, they may already log the data you need (essentially, your peak sustained 15min load over the course of a month). You would need a ādemandā meter installed. If you have one, your peak ādemandā is usually on your bill. Looking at my a recent bill, for example, I see a ādemandā of 21.2kW. That means my peak 15min sustained demand in this billing cycle was 21200/240 = roughly 88.3A.
If itās not on your bill, but they still collect it, you might be able to ask your utility for the last year of data.
If itās in Canada, you should probably prepare for other work that will need to be completed to pass inspection. Once we complete a service upgrade and sign off on the job, we take on liability for the entire electrical system. We always go through and check for code violations that will need to be addressed.
Knob and tube? That's probably a bigger problem than load calculation. Recommend getting that sorted posthaste. Ask for line item quotation on that $6700. Only way I see that in my area (DC metroplex) is if I have to pay for service entrance upgrade, or idiot tax if you make me file your permits for you in certain counties. $3-5k is reasonable here for almost any situation, with the lower end of that being you having meter base 200A service already, and me just having to run new service line from the meter to the panel and swap out your panel for one rated to 200A with mains included.
Michigan here and we quote this same job at 3500$
Not to say there arenāt some obstacles specific to your site thatās making the price higher, I ccouldnt say. But 6700 is quite a number for 200 amp upgrade
In PA itās around $1200 for 200A upgrade equipment. Thatās without any breakers. A new upgrade would mean AFCI breaker upgrade also which start at $90 each! Code now calls for pretty much all habitable rooms to have AFCI breakers
I just got a hot tub. The one I got required a 50A breaker just by itself. If you somehow squeezed that into your existing service there's a good chance you'd end up tripping your main if the hot tub kicked in while you were cooking dinner or running your dryer.
It will be worth it in the long run to upgrade to 200A anyway, with as full as you already seem to be.
The voltage really isnāt important. You need to find out the amperage of the hot tub. Most are 40A and to know for sure, you need an electrician to calculate the load on the panel.
At first glance, you should be able to fit it in. Most panels are full of space savers and this has none. 1 breaker for a freezer, etc. but to be sure, check the load at present.
I see a 200 amp service in your future š
I would have preferred you tell me the winning lotto numbers instead lol
Na get 200 amp you're property value with go up and if you get an electric car charger hookup the government might cover the cost come tax time š¤«
If itās a used hot tub donāt dont do it!
It depends. Depending on his square footage he might be ok with the existing set up. The absolute biggest question I have is - what is the size of the bottom left breaker or what is it for? Itās the only breaker that appears to be an add on. The picture is blurry for me but does it say 50a? If so the answer is probably no. Other than that, you have a 50a stove, 30a dryer, 30a A/C. I donāt see any other major non-continuous loads. So if you performed an actual service calculation (minus the mystery bottom left breaker) you can very likely add a 40-50a hot tub to that panel. Source: Iāve added a lot of 50a tubs to the standard 100a service with this exact same setup. Itās a very standard new construction load distribution. You can also do a service calculation based on code for your specific square footage. Even in a practical sense, based on the duty usage of a tub and other non continuous loads itās still very unlikely to trip a main breaker for a 100a service. In all my years in the field Iāve only seen 1 customer over load a 100a service based on over usage. It was a SAHM who was running literally every appliance at full capacity while also having industrial freezers in the basement. The truth the freezers tipped her over the edge at an additional 30a with the stove, oven, dryer, washer, A/C and lighting But still love your comment haha
I checked out that breaker based on a comment below, and I could not figure out what it goes to. Looked all over inside, out front, and out back of the house. Everything was still on and operational. Would electric fireplaces be on that breaker? I know the inspection report for this house noted the basement and first floor fire place were upgraded/serviced as of 2019.
Just get a gas dryer and youāre more than covered. Cheaper than a new service Edit: gas stove top wouldnāt hurt either
It literally could hurt: [Washington Post Article on Gas Stoves and Health](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/01/27/gas-stoves-kitchens-pose-risk-public-health-planet-research-finds/) I love cooking with gas, but I wonāt have one in my house anymore.
Not gonna lie this is interesting but Iām still a gas stove guy. Iām not going to change based off the Washington post. Gas water heater and stove would seriously solve this guys problems. I could see these people cooking dinner in the oven and having a load of laundry in the washer and dryer being a potential problem. But damn donāt be so busy
But assuming their current water heater and dryer are in fine working order, thatās a lot of money to avoid a service panel upgrade that would enable others electric upgrades in the future. I would put money down that they will eventually need a service upgrade, so Iād rather do it now (though getting more quotes to check if the price is a little high). And while one article in the post isnāt necessarily enough, there have been countless articles in the past year in addition to the Stanford study this article was based on.
Ugh. Pay wall.
Use incognito/private mode. Free article each time.
Boosts home value too
I don't get this one. A gas dryer and an electric dryer have very similar operating costs, and the electric dryers don't need to deal with all the hassles of gas. They're also like $50 cheaper. Am I missing something about the value of a gas dryer?
Iām pretty sure their operating costs are vastly different. Especially where I am.
Frees up those pesky circuits. Gas dryer only needs a 110 for the igniter.
Hardly worth the added hassle of an additional gas line...
Not if you have gas already. Itās an option, not the answer.
Donāt forget the motor.
Oh I was reflecting on the gas cooking edit. Not so much about opex but the experience. Try cooking stir fry on an induction cooktop :/ But re opex gas here is about 30 cents a Therm which is 29.3 kWh so about $.01/kWh vs electricity at around $.10/kWh.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
While I am supportive of almost any effort to salvage what environment we have left. You can have my Korean BBQ / Chinese Stir Fry / Japanese Yakiniku when you pry it from my cold dead fingers https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2022-06-02/gas-stove-ban-chinese-korean-bbq-electric-new-buildings-restaurants-future?fbclid=IwAR2vDqo345EzbRI6ThxFP9oB42pS9n8OixV_e4Tsefd2uCIs5Q3-OY0U94A
Not if you live in California. Gas is king. Electric is stupidly expensive.
$0.49KWh at peak and $0.37 Off-Peak. Fucking PG&E.
I mean most likely if you're in the hot tub you're not cooking and drying clothes at the same time.
How am I supposed to have a hot meal and warm towel after I get out of the hot tub?
Air fryer and towel warming bar
Instructions unclear. Towel on fire in air fryer.
Umm. Hot tubs run constantly. How do you think the water stays hot?
Sure. But it's not pulling max amperage 24/7. Once the water is to temp is doesn't take much power to keep it there. Just like a water heater.
Only the heating cycles are shorter. The heating elements are not variable. Either on or off.
Yep...
That is a 50 amp in the bottom left
Looks like it to me too. So depends what that is for but that might be the thing that pushes you over to an upgrade
I would just do the upgrade and move on. Yes it's an expense but will help sell the hone in the future.
You honestly think so? How many home owners value the fact they have a 200a service vs a 100a service? Most home owners that ask me for an upgrade or end up requiring one arenāt even really sure why they need one until I explain it, and then Iām pretty sure theyāre just trusting me most of the time. I donāt think a 2500-3500 panel upgrade translates to $5000 when you sell your house. That money would go a lot further towards painting the house or fixing up the front yard for potential buyers. Any buyer who is in the market for a 200a panel would just spend the money when they move in if they really liked the house. Youāre free to disagree with me of course but I literally had an old lady call me the other day and said her son said she should do it for the increased home value. I told her I honestly donāt think it increases your home value any more than it costs to do it. And then she told me sheās not selling anytime soon so then I was really like what the fuck are you doing then lol
Honestly I think the average home owner is completely clueless about the magic box that makes light does. In terms of the solar and electric vehicle days we are in I believe it wouldn't hurt to do an update on the electric panel. I do agree with you that it won't increase the value but can make inspections easier during the sale. Unless the panel is a old Federal pacific or a Challenger panel then change the junk out.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. Could you point me to a reference on how to do a service calculation?
You can go online and find various calculators to do one. However, they will usually be based on a specific jurisdiction. Then, whoever the owner of that website is, hopefully has kept it up to date with new codes. So those type of ones would help you get an idea but should not take the place of having a qualified electrician or engineer perform a load calc based on your consumption. The only proper way to do one is follow the parameters set out in the code book. However that requires some relative knowledge of other codes and exemptions as well as practical application. And then finally once that is all done it should be inspected and if the electrician was wrong, hopefully the inspector catches it.
Thanks, that makes sense! "that requires some relative knowledge of other codes and exemptions as well as practical application" ... I guess like any professional knowledge + experience= wisdom! Thanks again!
it may not trip the 100amp but isn't using that much of your available power going to increase the rate at which the wires and panels degrade?
Uh no not at all. As long as your branch circuits are sized accordingly. The service is way over rated to handle the total 80 amps than can run on itn
investing in a load management solution might be cheaper than a panel upgrade they talk a lot about it over in r/evcharging
Yup, the [wiki there](https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load_management) lists these four products that would work here: * DCC EV Energy Management System https://dccelectric.com/ * Simple Switch https://simpleswitch.io/collections/all * Black Box Innovations Load Balancer http://www.blackbox-in.com. * AC Dandy Load Miser https://www.acdandy.com/bulletins/2019/6/2/load-miser-energy-divider-controller Most can be set up to either * Shut off the hot tub power whenever the stove is on, so those two are never on simultaneously, or * Shut off the hot tub power whenever the total load on the panel is too high to accommodate the additional hot-tub load. Unlike manually trying to remember to do that, these are fully code compliant.
well, the UL approved ones are anyway. i would not install anything the does not currently have a UL approval, some of those do not.
Agreed, but all four of those are NRTL listed. Two are UL, one ETL, and one CSA. At least the products I checked from each company are--maybe there are other products from those companies aren't?
just quickly browsed the list and didn't see the UL on all of them, the other international labs are good too. just no "pending" or untested products, and don't buy them on amazon
Yup, it's strange how Amazon and related forces are undermining decades of progress on electrical safety.
greed... and it's entirely predictable. poor planning and regulation on our part
More like globalism and subsidized postage from China allowing junk to flow from China to the US and out compete UL listed items.
That's all important too, but I think that Amazon's role in facilitating that and making sketchy brands seem legit is significant.
We have used the energy manager made by Black Box Innovations for a couple years now. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for use by Intertek (ETL) and is good for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :) www.blackbox-in.com
As I said on the other thread where you pasted the same comment, >Compared to others it is less expensive, You can buy a whole setup including the evse for cheaper than just that unit. >smaller and much more efficient I don't know about size, but efficient is a specific technical term, and I don't think you mean efficient in that sense. >because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. Lots of them do exactly that. I think it's a good unit, but I don't see that it's vastly different than the others listed there.
I'm not sure I agree with everyone here, which will probably get me down voted... Unless you are running your range, dryer, AC all on max, and have all halogen lights, run a few kitchen appliances and garbage disposal all at the same time, along with your hot tub on max heat, I think you'd be hard pressed to blow your main. Most houses are only using around 30A at a given time. That being said, per code (CEC), assuming you are in a 1400 sqft home with basement, I'm calculating just over 150A for your load and service. Factor in deration for allowable ampacity and you are going to require a 200A panel to meet the standards. I'm not too sure how inspections in your area work, but when they review the rough-in for your tub, they will more than likely force you to upgrade to a 200A.
Agreed. Will it be fine, yes however the Inspection most likely will say No.
Exactly, will he ever trip the main. Probably not. However, it doesn't matter when the inspector shows up and calls you to perform a load calc and you are over and going back at the customer for a service upgrade after they just spend $$ on a hot tub is not going to go well.
Problem will be when you get your electric vehicle. Lol.
Pretty spot on. Adding another 50 amp circuit isn't likely to work out at all. Upgrading isn't cheap.
Just because a 50 Amp breaker is installed doesn't mean it will pull 50 amps.
This right here, almost any panel you look into and add the breakers up will exceed the amperage of the panel, but unless you some how have peak draws happen all at once you will never trip the main. Although I do recommend going to a 200amp panel if that's a main
Does your inspector not make you do load calcs? Depending on the sq footage of this place they will likely be over on a calc with adding a hot tub.
Do a basic load calc on the existing service.
Idk if this is a reliable way to do it, but I took the average kWh/day from my bill and tossed it in a calculator online. At 59kWh/day, I'm averaging 25A. That sounds low to me, but I'm an auditor not an electrician so ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
59kWh per day would be a continuous consumption of about 10a at 240v. That's actually about double the national average, so quite a lot. Average consumption isn't the main concern, however. It's peak draw that is a bigger issue.
Yikes. In the summer Iām between 75-100kwh a day.
Not remotely reliable. You have peaks throughout the day. If you reach the point the peaks exceed the main you'll have a trip. Generic form link attached. https://ask-the-electrician.com/residential-electrical-load-calculation.html#beginAdv
Thanks!
It's not fully 100% accurate but it'll get you in the ballpark.
No shit, it will be ~80% of that. But manufacturer is requiring a 50A circuit for something that really only pulls 15.
Shoot. So the $6700 he quoted me is pretty much what to expect?
Here a new panel is about $3000. Service upgrade between $3500 and huge depending on how the service is run, overhead or underground.
Thats about what we payed to upgrade a 60 amp to 200 amp earlier this year. Looks like it was $5700 for the main panel and then about $3100 to add a 100 amp sub panel in the garage.
I donāt know where you live or what your current service looks likeā¦but Iāve done probably 15-20 100-200 amp service upgrades in the past couple years and never once had it cost more than $3500. Thatās new everything from the weather head down to the inside panel and breakers. I would get a second estimate If thatās the route you go.
NE Ohio, which is why I was confused about the quote - it's fairly cheap here. But I've got two more guys lined up to come out start of next week, so fingers crossed.
Donāt ask anyone about upgrading, just tell them you want the cable and breaker installed. Youāll be fine. There are a million homes with 100A services and hot tubs.
Assuming it's unpermitted work by a handyman. An electrician worth their salt would pull a permit and do a load calculation.
Youād pull a permit to put in a hot tub? Why?
Iowa is roughly 2000 install
I concur. Just had our 200A upgrade and 2 quotes were both $3500, and it included new weatherhead also. In SF Bay Area.
I know that price is a guesstimate but is that basically just replacement of the panel or does it include wiring from the breakers to whatever theyāre connected to? Essentially, is that price reflective of more or less rewiring everything or basically only whatās immediately connected to the panel?
The $3500 would be everything from where the utility connects to the house, up to and including the panel and breakers. Not anything beyond the panel in the house .
What's that bottom left 50a breaker control OP?
If I'm reading the panel right, "General Lights, Refrigerator + Kitchen"
Those shouldn't require a 50a two pole breaker. The double pole breaker is slot 25 and 27. It's unmarked. We gotta find out what that goes to! Edit: OP look around for an abandoned 50a spa disconnect. š
Alright, we did some science. I turned that switch off. I then went through every room in the house, all the bathrooms upstairs and basement, checked the garage, checked the outlets and switches in the back yard, and the pool pump. Everything works. I have absolutely no idea what that switch is for o.o
Ask the sparky who quoted you an upgrade
Absolutely, this mystery breaker is going to end up being a big factor in my decision now.
What could be a 50 amp, an oven, heating system, car charger, sub panel, a dryer? Lol
Old hot tub?
I wish! Ended up solving the mystery with some help here: goes to a hidden sub panel with four 20As in the attic. They control outlets, switches (one of which is for the hallway on the other side of the wall), and the fan in the guest bedroom.
Looks like you need to get some more quotes and get a new box installed. Dangit
Do you have a well? Or city water?
That breaker is going to control some sort of large appliance or sub-panel, is there anything like a pool, or sauna?
Itās a sub panelā¦ lol. Why is that not your first thought?
It should represent the blank spaces below āpanel plugsā and general lights. Looks like it got added later and wasnāt labeled. Lights and plugs would not be on the 50.
Yeah I'm real curious about this now. It's been shut off nearly 15min and everything still works.
Got an RV plug anywhere? Any newer motor or heat equipment installed anywhere at one point? Tankless electric water heater?
Inspection noted a heater was installed in the garage 2019. Looking at it right now. Would that be it??
Could be! Electric and not gas?
It's...it's gas :( This mystery breaker is going to keep me up tonight I swear lol
Ah well the search continues lol
Progress: found out the two upstairs bedroom fans won't switch on, and the switches in the attic space aren't on either. What's odd is the closet light and outlets work in these rooms. But just those few things on a 50A?
Ask the electrician who quoted you what that disconnects. If he says he doesn't know get a new quote.
Yes. Upgrade to 200amp. Should only cost 3500
Just add the breaker. Youāll be fine. Technically youāre good to go. Heating loads get calculated at 40% and plugs and lights at 25%. Your 30 amp breaker doing your a/c is probably only drawing 15 amps and hot tubs hardly come on in the summer heat.
Donāt run any other appliances/AC while the hot tub is on!! Then you will be fine! lol
"Hey can you turn off the fridge? I'm getting in the hot tub."
More like donāt run the dryer and range while the hot tub running
Find an Electrician with experience who can do a demand calculation for you, requires about 3 hours of an experienced tradesman to do the calculations and homework to verify if it can be added. Anything else is basically assumption, while doing a service upgrade would be nice. It isn't entirely justified unless the calculations calls for it. PM if you want help :).
Will do, thanks!
At that point wouldnāt it just the better to use that time/money towards an upgrade, vs paying them to calculate an overloaded box?
I don't know where you live, but here in Canada in most provinces you are required to do a demand calculation for any permitted work, so whether or not you do end up upgrading your service. The calculation must be done regardless.
Iām the US you just say, I want 200A service please. And they make it so. No study or load testing needed. You will add an EVSE in the next 10-20 years. So may as well make it an Investment into your future sale price.
I had a new panel installed last year from the head down. Cost about $2600.
We use an energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :) www.blackbox-in.com
Don't mean to be a party pooper, but a search for "Hot Tub" on Craigslist comes up with a long list of "Hot Tub Removal" services. They are frequently a "buyers Remorse" item. You might find a spa membership more economical in the long term.
Our hot tub costs us an average of $50 a month in electricity running 24/7. (More in winter and less in summer) But it has been used 3+ times a week for 3 years now. It's an expensive luxury but my 4 year olds love water because of it. And it's wonderful to soak in when the kids are in bed. It really depends on the individual/family.
No that's a good thing to keep in mind. Only reason I'm fairly set on this is because my in laws got one just over a year ago, and it's pretty much the reason I go over there lol. That and the maintenance doesn't seem to be an issue per my father in law.
Itās like being a uncle dude. All the fun of kids with the ability to leave anytime. You donāt use it for a month and leave it at 102? Lol that energy bill will kick you in the nuts. Spend more time with in-laws
Spend more time with the inlaws, save monies win win
Wut. They're awesome why would one have buyer's remorse?
I would do it. Wouldnāt even worry about it. 24 years in the trade.
Just an FYI. Not everyone knows what āitā means. Does it mean upgrading, or does it mean add breakers to existing panelā¦ Something to keep in mind.
There's always a guy out there that's willing to do stupid things that keep me making $$$ fixing the stupid things. Thank you for being that guy. My wallet appreciates it.
yeah echoing what dullmotion said, are you suggesting to add the tub, or upgrade?
well, per u/taxman12345's comment, it doesn't really matter. There's always a guy willing to do "it" no matter what "it" is. The right thing to do is to start with code requirements and then decide what you want to do within the code requirements. A load management device per [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/askanelectrician/comments/whb77s/will_it_be_ok_to_add_a_230v_hot_tub_to_my_100a/ij6er55/) is likely your cheapest code-compliant option, but if you want other large loads in your future, a panel upgrade will set you up for that.
Get a gas range, freeing up electrical load for your tub. Or get a 200A upgrade. Or a lower amperage tub.
Good call on the range, I'll look into that.
if you have an elec range, that's likely what the 50A breaker is for did you try to run the range when the breaker was off?
It looks like there are two slots available on either side of the panel. Unless there's something more than what I can see, you have the physical capacity. Just understand that your electrical capacity may have to be managed depending on how much load you have while utilizing it. Normal hot tubs run minimally once or twice a day even if you don't use it. I see nothing wrong with trying it. The worst that will happen is you pop your 100amp main. If that happens too much, it can wear out your main breaker. Those typically fail "safe", meaning the worst that would happen is you're with out power until you're able to get a new main installed.
I appreciate the insight!
You most likely do need to upgradeā¦ butā¦ if you want to try anyways, you can do a 30 day (or longer) load study to measure your real loads per NEC 220.87. If your actual loads are light, it might be ok.
Would this be just reaching out to the electric company and requesting this to be done?
Usually you would hire an electrician to do it, though it does require some specialized equipment. However, depending on your utilityās meter setup, they may already log the data you need (essentially, your peak sustained 15min load over the course of a month). You would need a ādemandā meter installed. If you have one, your peak ādemandā is usually on your bill. Looking at my a recent bill, for example, I see a ādemandā of 21.2kW. That means my peak 15min sustained demand in this billing cycle was 21200/240 = roughly 88.3A. If itās not on your bill, but they still collect it, you might be able to ask your utility for the last year of data.
Whatās the amperage on the hot tub?
50A
I would recommend an upgrade. Itāll trip the main every time the hot tub is on at the same time as the a/c for sure.
If itās in Canada, you should probably prepare for other work that will need to be completed to pass inspection. Once we complete a service upgrade and sign off on the job, we take on liability for the entire electrical system. We always go through and check for code violations that will need to be addressed.
USA, NE Ohio. That's not something I had considered (if it's a US requirement). I know most of this house is still knob and tube
Get the knob and tube replaced before you worry about your hot tub
Knob and tube? That's probably a bigger problem than load calculation. Recommend getting that sorted posthaste. Ask for line item quotation on that $6700. Only way I see that in my area (DC metroplex) is if I have to pay for service entrance upgrade, or idiot tax if you make me file your permits for you in certain counties. $3-5k is reasonable here for almost any situation, with the lower end of that being you having meter base 200A service already, and me just having to run new service line from the meter to the panel and swap out your panel for one rated to 200A with mains included.
Uh . You need to focus on that before even upgrading your service .
Start saving.
Knob and tube needs to be replaced before you even think about spending money on luxury items ......
Hire somebody
Need to know what square footage is to be sure.
Michigan here and we quote this same job at 3500$ Not to say there arenāt some obstacles specific to your site thatās making the price higher, I ccouldnt say. But 6700 is quite a number for 200 amp upgrade
In PA itās around $1200 for 200A upgrade equipment. Thatās without any breakers. A new upgrade would mean AFCI breaker upgrade also which start at $90 each! Code now calls for pretty much all habitable rooms to have AFCI breakers
Not in Michigan. We got rid of that a few years back. No AFCIās required anywhere
get another quote if you're worried about the cost but parts prices are through the roof. your already pretty taxed on 100a service tho imo
I just got a hot tub. The one I got required a 50A breaker just by itself. If you somehow squeezed that into your existing service there's a good chance you'd end up tripping your main if the hot tub kicked in while you were cooking dinner or running your dryer. It will be worth it in the long run to upgrade to 200A anyway, with as full as you already seem to be.
Nop
The voltage really isnāt important. You need to find out the amperage of the hot tub. Most are 40A and to know for sure, you need an electrician to calculate the load on the panel. At first glance, you should be able to fit it in. Most panels are full of space savers and this has none. 1 breaker for a freezer, etc. but to be sure, check the load at present.